Guild Wars 2

InsaneQR.7412:

StickerHappy.8052:

InsaneQR.7412:

Actually they should give every pet a distinct combination of stats and balanced stats of course. It is not enough gor every race of pets it have to be ever individual. For exanple a wolf would benefit from condition duration because of the fear and pets like tiger would benefit from boon duartion, fern hound and moa from healing power and lynx from condi dmg etc etc.

But boon duration and condi duration are all traited anyway, I think that is fair. But healing pets should have innate healing power just like condition pets have innate condition damage.

Right it would take away some flavor of the traits, pne trait with control duration would be nice thou, but thats not the topic here.
Were is boon duration traited for pet?

Mainly i think that every pet deserves its own stats, i mean a river drake does not inflict condition dmg and thats only because he is a drake and 3 of 4 do condi dmg.

Not only that, Wonderwall gave a very good explanation, condition damage on pets also benefit from traits like Poison master and refined toxins, and companion’s might.

Even without condis on their own skills, having innate condition damage gives you more pet choices for the sake of build diversity.

This is why Healing power should be too, since it affects Invigorating Bond.

PVP TRACKS = PVP EXCLUSIVE SKINS

Sirendor.1394:

StickerHappy.8052:

Alex Shatter.7956:

Wolfric.9380:

Topher.5631:

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

Your stance on this is hand-wavy and inaccurate. Part of me thinks you don’t want the elite specs to be nerfed because you enjoy playing the big bruiser in video games, in which case I suggest you go play Skyrim or something. There is no valid justification for elite specs that are stronger than core

It should be. Elite classes were not supposed to be an upgrade from core classes.

Yeah, that one really bothers me aswell. Before elite specialisations were released ArenaNet stated that they would not be an upgrade to core classes, but just a new way to play without actually being top dog.

They have clearly gone back on their word. Reason? Poor HoT sales compared to core game sales.

I wouldn’t say poor sales, It just basic 101 Marketing Strategy. Good advertisement for them so that people would by HoT.

They went and ahead overtuned elite specs with full knowledge of that.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

That’s pretty arguable. Does one look to the salary of the ceo for the best representation of wages in a company?

The pro league is simply one facet of the PvP scene, but I’d argue that standard highish level play outside of pro league is the best representation.

But let’s be frank here, what else is the best representation of pvp? The people you see in AGs and ESLs are the same people in PL, imo its just a different name but let’s say top tier is best representation of pvp.

Don’t forget these:

• Crossfire – Deal double damage when flanking
• Concussion shot – 3 Stacks of Confusion when flanking.

With these changes and yours, Shortbow will be golden.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

“Pro league” isnt really a good representation of much.

Nice to see you still trying to participate in the conversation though

Nope they don’t set the meta or anything…..

What meta do they set, exactly? Can you define it please.

They set the meta for top tier tourneys like AGs, ESLS, etc. or even high ranked play.

Meta in a sense that the most efficient builds to use in a team setting.

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

Is there any better choice than SS or BB in terms of reliability?

I wanted to get drake but their f2 is easily cancelled when the target goes off their radius by an inch.

Porcine pets are still hideous if people can pick up the loot.

Dogs are good but can’t hit moving targets either.

So which one is a good substitute on even either one of the new pets?

Alex Shatter.7956:

Wolfric.9380:

Topher.5631:

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

Your stance on this is hand-wavy and inaccurate. Part of me thinks you don’t want the elite specs to be nerfed because you enjoy playing the big bruiser in video games, in which case I suggest you go play Skyrim or something. There is no valid justification for elite specs that are stronger than core

It should be. Elite classes were not supposed to be an upgrade from core classes.

Until you remove the MANDATORY TRAITLINES

nothing will change.

Inspiration, Soul Reaping, Discipline, Etc

eldenbri.1059:

It looks like sigil of blood is working, but nothing shows in the combat log.

After stepping carefully through video, I can see a heal and a damage floater numbers that aren’t in the combat log but which have the expected values.

So I assume leeching is doing damage as well, I just never managed to catch it correctly.

Blood never showed on the combat log iirc.

@OP

You seriously wanna nerf Healing from staff druid?

Do you even play the class?

4/5 Staff skills are healing. Let’s just delete staff then.

Spartacus.3192:

Rarnark.5623:

Really?

The only Tier 1 meta build playing this amulet at the moment is condi mesmer. Do you really think the amulet is broken or does condi mes just have broken mechanics? This is going to kitten so many specs that are on the fringe of viability at the moment.

My goodness the balance team is lost……

smh((

Mercenary Amulet was used by the Meta builds for Mesmer, Necro and is currently used by Condi Warriors and if anyone did play Condi Rev it was used by that also. So no its not a niche amulet used only by condi mesmer.

Nice to see some people see things and not deluded by their own pvp experience.

Rarnark.5623:

Really?

The only Tier 1 meta build playing this amulet at the moment is condi mesmer. Do you really think the amulet is broken or does condi mes just have broken mechanics? This is going to kitten so many specs that are on the fringe of viability at the moment.

My goodness the balance team is lost……

smh((

Imo merc is bad.

It gives you everything, toughness, vitality, 1k power and 1k condition damage?

Some classes do not need precision to bomb you with conditions, some classes have insane access to fury so yea.

Dextroz.4019:

Why are you removing viper’s amulet?

Removing the price. not the amulet

phokus.8934:

I’m a bit on the fence with Merc going away but now it looks like Sage’s Amulet will be taken.

In any event, we’re going to expect more changes next week so we’ll see where we stand.

I don’t think so. All those healing power will be a wasted stat imo. The healing shatters do not scale very well with healing power iirc.

InsaneQR.7412:

Actually they should give every pet a distinct combination of stats and balanced stats of course. It is not enough gor every race of pets it have to be ever individual. For exanple a wolf would benefit from condition duration because of the fear and pets like tiger would benefit from boon duartion, fern hound and moa from healing power and lynx from condi dmg etc etc.

But boon duration and condi duration are all traited anyway, I think that is fair. But healing pets should have innate healing power just like condition pets have innate condition damage.

Wondrouswall.7169:

All we can ask for now are band-aids. The game is too far deep for major overhauls on an old system. Adding in base healing power and even ferocity in 3 different tiers among the pet families as they did with condition damage would be a fine addition.

@Sticker: Also, pets such as Fern Hound have condition damage so they are not completely kitten if the player decides to run them with Poison Master, Companion’s Might, Sun Spirit, Shortbow (#4) or if the pet might have combo finishers that can inflict a condition.

In this case, Canines have leaps that can activate a Fire Shield in a fire field. It may not be the best setups, or the optimal thing to run, but the condition stat is available for flexibility.

Thanks for the tip, I haven’t looked at them that way.

Any other tips for me on pet choices tho? I like SS but I completely dislike BB.

Wondrouswall.7169:

The regeneration boon, yes, but not the healing. Which is why the OP is bringing this up.

Yes, and let’s not forget Invigorating Bond, for who knows what reason the devs wanted it to scale with Pet’s Healing power.

kdaddy.5431:

XSamX.7182:

Sam here. Hello everyone.

To clarify the situation I will just poke in my 2 cents. Trashtalk me as you want, I really don’t care. I just post this for everyone who wants to know exactly what happened.

I am not someone who plays unfair. I don’t wanted to get an advantage out of this. We got our 4th-5th place set if we would have played normally, and even if we would have had beaten TCG, we would have just get 3rd place, so not really much more money or anything.

So, why did I do this then? Vermillion got DDOS’ed (from guys, who are in proleague, because they know the rules exactly), everyone, even the guys that don’t play PvP and stuff know EXACTLY what happened in the game TCG vs. VM. Since ESL and Arenanet both didn’t give Vermillion a fair chance to rematch, I decided to give them atleast a chance, to beat 55hp and beat TCG and get their Spot which they deserved into the finals. Since they beaten TCG with 200 Points lead, I thought for myself, that this is unfair as hell, but no one helped them.

I stated it a lot and everyone knows that I was in my finals exam for my apprenticeship. That’s why I didn’t got much time to spend on Training for GW2. (You can see that in the first weeks, were we played with Kanscout over me, even though Mesmer was better obviously.) But even if I would have had time, I would not be as good of a mesmer as Frostball.

I loved this game, but I never loved the Proleague, because it’s just unfair over and over and over again. Car Crashed got trashtalked by every Proleague Team, no one did something against it. I said something about Helseth, and gets instantly messages from ESL guys.
TCG matchfixed their match against Orng, which would get you banned immediatiely in other games and Rom even admited it, ON STREAM. Nothing happened.
TCG played with Rom and Denshee against Orange Logo, which is not allowed, it’s stated in the official rules in ESL. But ESL is changing this rules mid season, for TCG.
Someone ddos’ed Vermillion, no rematch, no afk, no 4 v 4, no changing rules, NOTHING HAPPENED.

Do you call this fair? If so, don’t read more of this text.

Frostball got DDOS protection and everything, and they still insisted on their rule, that everyone needs to work their own protection. So they literally stated, that unfair behaviour is getting rewarded, and that DDOS is allowed or what?

And this was kittening me off so hard, that I decided to do that. I know it was wrong, and if the DDOS didn’t happen, I would have not gone for this stupid behaviour. I did this by myself, together with Frostball. My team did not know what Frostball and me planned, but they got banned out of it. But yeah, what ever, Fair play is the best play, right?

I love this game, it’s the one I played from beta, and enjoyed 3 and a half year now. Even though the balance was a problem from the start, even though I get trashtalked a lot (when I joined Car Crash, and I did NOTHING, everyone hated Posi and Zapdos, and so hated me, because of my Guild Tag, getting guys who tell me to DDOS me and stuff.)

But yeah. The game is now dead to me. Not because of Guild Wars 2. It’s still a great game, but because of Proleague.

I am sad that everything worked out like this, because the whole Proleague is not watchable. Of course I did something wrong, I am not proud of it or anything and I would not say ever, do the same. I will take the consequences as an adult as usal. If the DDOS would have not happened, I would have not done this 100%. But if I could continuum split back, I would probably do the same again, because i think it was the right thing to do for Vermillion.

And yeah, someone talked on Whisper Chat. It was not me, but I don’t want to blame anything, on anyone. So I don’t need to say the name.

Peace out, hopefully I see you in a year or in other games and I wish good luck for Arenanet. That they will do more good stuff for this game. But they should let go of the Esport. It’s just not ment to be.

P.S.: Sry for my bad english.

Best regards,

Sam

Im completely fine with you posting this and i appreciate you giving insight on your feelings towards it.

Though it goes back to everything ive ever said about Pro Leagues and the people in it.

You guys are kids, you are talking about fair and the rules. Anyone whos played a real sport competitively knows the ref doesnt always make the right calls and most of the time the sponsor tries to do it better the next time instead of back tracking.

You brought up money, so lets just put this back into perspective. You guys get paid to play a game. You dont give your bodys to the game. You give time/mind and you can easily move on. Also you guys get to pick how much time you put into it.

I watched some of the Pro League today and you heard the Vermillion player crying and you had other Pro League player commenting what did you expect?

How about for people getting payed to play the game to not be babies. Anet didnt help with there poor job of establishing rules/roster/ trades etc etc.

So i guess overall i agree, Anet really needs to think about this Esport thing because its a bit hard to look at.

Wanna emphasize that a lot of the gw2 pvp population are kids.. too much drama.

Another complain thread from the OP as usual.

Is this really a normal sight in the PvP forums? Everything based on 1v1/solo q perspective?

Can we finally have Healing power stats For healing pets like:

Fern hound? I have no idea why it has condition Damage.

Moa’s Heal could also be decent especially when paired with Invigorating bond.

Darknicrofia.2604:

a ventari hammer condi rev is not experimenting or theorycrafting, its them outright telling everyone they’re just here to play out the games for the prize money.

Your last sentence did not make sense. If you are going to play for the money then use a meta build?

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Hey guys,

watching the Pro League over on EU today was something I actually ended up looking forward to. I feel like I was one of the last ones that actually did. The new patch, at least in my eyes, did enable teams to actually play different comps. I was hoping to enjoy games that were not actually mirror matches, where teams utilized different classes and different comps, even if it was just one class that was different (oh how far we’ve come). And I think teamcomp wise today was actually one of the best days yet.

However, it was pretty apparent that none of the teams were practiced at all. None of the players played particularly well and it was pretty plain obvious most teams weren’t very practiced.

To top it off, oRNG decided to troll with a revenant build that lost them the games unfortunately. Usually, I would have really supported oRNG since they got screwed by the transfers to just play their games to have fun, with or without TS. But this is playing for money after all. They should at least try to win/do their best to win and not play with what feels like a mystic builds tournament. That was so disappointing to watch.

So tl/dr, Pro League in EU has gone down the kittenter. Noone even bothers to really try anymore.

Unpracticed teams will still rekt you.

Also, why is that experimenting or theorycrafting with a build using a major tourney as testing grounds considered as trolling?

mrauls.6519:

Just saw Rank 55 Dragons w the teef . Was very nice to see.

inb4 thief forum mains say “Thief is overnerfed, thieves needs more buffs”

Spartacus.3192:

mrauls.6519:

Spartacus.3192:

Orange Logo running DH and Thief.

Vermillion did NOT run Engie

Civilized Gentlemen did NOT run engie but ran a warrior and thief

I didn’t see Orange’s fight. How did they do? Do you know where I can watch their fight?

I didnt see all of it . It was on the Guild Wars 2 Twitch channel

Last i saw orange logo was losing to Civilized Gentlemen 166/329 on legacy map,

TCG 2 – Orng 0

Farroz ran ventari hammer rev for orng.

Cecilia.5179:

Condition comes in when condi removal goes out. When condi removal comes back in, condition builds go out. It is a vicious cycle called meta trends.

But what is the meta?

No Condition builds.

They are hybrids.

You still get direct damage.

sanctuary.1068:

This has been discussed plenty of times. Guild wars 1 had split skill balances between pvp and pve and it worked quite good. I dont understand what makes it so difficult to have the same split in gw2. Either way, it doesnt work well to balance the game as a whole because it affects different game modes badly and like earlier people said, we will never get a truly balanced game.

Because anet is not prolific. You see the content we have for 4 years? we do not even have LS this time.

4/16 Legendary weapons? LOL

Razor.9872:

In many cases, asking for strong AF generation without the dps loss of taking NM or BM is like asking for strong defensive countermeasures in addition to greater offensive application. From a balance standpoint, that is simply too powerful a combo.

CA form = strong defensive recovery + suppresive enemy pressure.

If you want the greater damage utility acquired from MM or SK, you will have to sacrifice the frequency to your access to CA form.

WS is slightly different, and I can’t put my finger on the exact reason it doesn’t synergize well with AF.

But again, BM is mainly DPS. we all know that.

Here is the solution.

Let’s give other traitlines options to generate AF too?

so we could have X/X/Druid Builds other than NM or BM.

But leets first move EB out of WS.

kdaddy.5431:

Im sorry anet but i cant wrap my head around this. I havent been playing as much i admit but when i PvP everyone is using a condi build.

Warriors with mace/shields and sword/torch, mesmers scrappers, all of them are going full condi. The only classes that are not is ele which is a support build atm and a bunker druid. Thief and DH are still falling behind.

Even the OP rev is going back to condi for alot of the average players because simply put its almost impossible to deal with all the conditions being thrown around.

You changed warriors gun flame for its dps in WvW so not its not really all that useful in PvP. You changed the staff 5 skill of rev. Now revs are struggling to kill the more bunkery/sustain players in the time needed since everyone has ridiculous sustain and bursts.

Im sorry but HOT brought nothing to this game WvW and PvP wise. Seriously this is horrible.

You brought back old borderlands because you threw out crap. Now every class in the game PvP has literally 1 decent build. Im not gonna write a thread like chaith did on how to fix a class because its your job to make the game playable.

Hot brought guild halls which kind of suck, a new WvW which you took away because it sucked and PvP has become a complete joke with no leader boards, build diveristy, and a dying Ag tournament which use to be very good and active.

I will congratulate you on PvE areas because they are alot of funs, havent been able to find a raid group at my time which i put on myself but seriously the 2 areas i play most are completely useless as a expansion.

I bring it up because i just watched the Spring Update video and im sitting here like you are talking dynamics/ build changes for better improving raid teams.

Talking about slivers just being handed out and heres the thing, people dont want it it to be easy. Raid players dont want raids to be easy, people who scribe dont want it to be easy, PvP players dont want builds to be brain dead and easy.

This has to be the most frustrating aspect listening to Hugh talk. Hes talking about balance and god mode and the beta situation. UMMMMMMMMM we had it for HOT and no one listened.

Each forum for each class outside of PvP has threads with great suggestions on how to fix classes yet Anet takes a rocket launcher to that idea.

The d/d god meta? The burn damage? Before HOT these things were insane and it took forever to fix. Now these 2 things are completely gone and are useless.

Nobody wanted burn guardians to die and no one wanted core builds to be wiped from the face of GW2. Not only that no one wanted people taking those crappy builds and walking into Legendary in Season 2.

Rant is over but just like most of the people in that spring update video were laughing at all the messed up things in the game. I am to but mostly at the idea that things were fixed.

Correction.

They are not pure condition builds. They are hybrids.

1050 power is a LOT of damage contribution.

LughLongArm.5460:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadelang.3012:

StickerHappy.8052:

LughLongArm.5460:

OGDeadHead.8326:

LughLongArm.5460:

Dont agree, AF is fine. Builds must have some trade off, I dont think druids that invest 0 in tools that generate AF(and we have tons of thouse) should have rapid acsess to CA.

This list: @StickerHappy.8052

“Staff
Perma Regen
SotW”

doesnt include- TU, Rune of the Dolyak, natural healing trait, mango pie food(outside pvp) etc..

This list: @Tragic Positive.9356
“BM
Traited Healing Spring
Staff”
Doesnt include: fren hound, windbornen notes, water rune, other regen ranger traits , traited water spirit etc..

So basiclly you dont want to explore our less “meta options”, use the same pets(brist/smoke) same triats like(druidic clarity ) and complain about limited build options?

I don’t think runes, sigils or consumables should be taken into consideration when it comes to how often we should be able to use our specialization mechanic. Also, don’t forget CA is already gated by icd.

Why not? runes, sigils or consumables are part of the game and can be part of a build. Its another options if you decide not to go one of the options above which are not runes, sigils or consumables. the 10 sec icd is only to denay some builds that can abuse some of the CA traits every 5 sec wich is possible if you build for it.

CA mechanic is not perfect, but its not due to lack of options to regenerate AF.

SO you are telling me, you also have to limit your sigil choices?

You want me to get sigils that generate AF and kitten a build?

One of the biggest issues with PvP and even WvW to an extent atm is that many builds can dip there hands into every pot without making sacrifices. Many of the Elite specs themselves are examples of this. Druid in its current form has very few relative limitations yet it provides massive sustain and control covering the core rangers only weaknesses without significant sacrifice.

There has to be a draw back when taking druid. At the moment the variance in astral force gain between different druid builds is the only variant. Which is why druid is in nearly every top ranger build at this time.

Don’t act like making a minor investment in order to gain access to druids massively powerful effects that cover the core classes weaknesses is some kind of huge drawback. Its not. If anything. Taking druid should FORCEFULLY cost you significant damage output. Maybe then we would see an actual difference between builds.

But since it doesn’t you can use any number of methods to generate AF. There are almost a dozen methods I can think of off the top of my head that will fill your AF nearly on cooldown. And more that will still provide you a steady stream (though they won’t be as fast). Take any of them. And give something up in return. Having everything you could ever want in a build is a bad design philosophy.

Edit: Edited to be less obnoxious to read.

Please do provide a build that does not use NM or BM that can be used in competitive pvp matches and without staff. I am curious to see what other people’s ideas are.

WS is also required for core ranger because 2 of our best condition removal options is there. Which I think is one of the glaring problems for druid/core ranger.

You simply cannot afford to take any other trait other than Druidic Clarity if you do not take WS for removal.

If we are talking about top tier competitive pvp so we have like 2 possible builds, same as all other classess and thouse builds dont use BM/NM for the AF regen, they take it becuse they are the best traitlines beside druid. even a non druid build(ranger build) would use thouse 2 trait lines. If taking about playble builds(even in competetive pvp) you have lots of options outside of BM/NM. Condi builds that use WS/SKIRMISH/DRUID are out there. remorsless build using MM/WS/DRUID also exist. TU+fren hound = all the AF you can ask for, even without staff even when you 1v1.

I do not know what 2 builds you are talking about

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Ranger

6/7 builds here use NM and BM. which utilize the regen on shouts (perma) + Staff. You cannot say that it is not used for AF, this is simply absurd. Regen plays majority of the AF part.

Regen on shouts also heal allies so I do not know why you wouldn’t think this alone do not generate a lot of AF.

Let’s see those builds and run untraited shouts and no staff. I wouldn’t think you will still gain AF reliably

Razor.9872:

StickerHappy.8052:

Razor.9872:

I would argue that Clarion Bond + Windborn Notes + Warhorn is a viable alternative (to staff, shouts, or healingspring) as well.

Still NM is required.

If you could, what trait lines would you like to have (if NM or BM weren’t “required”)?

Skirm MM and WS.

Razor.9872:

I would argue that Clarion Bond + Windborn Notes + Warhorn is a viable alternative (to staff, shouts, or healingspring) as well.

Still NM is required.

Shadelang.3012:

StickerHappy.8052:

LughLongArm.5460:

OGDeadHead.8326:

LughLongArm.5460:

Dont agree, AF is fine. Builds must have some trade off, I dont think druids that invest 0 in tools that generate AF(and we have tons of thouse) should have rapid acsess to CA.

This list: @StickerHappy.8052

“Staff
Perma Regen
SotW”

doesnt include- TU, Rune of the Dolyak, natural healing trait, mango pie food(outside pvp) etc..

This list: @Tragic Positive.9356
“BM
Traited Healing Spring
Staff”
Doesnt include: fren hound, windbornen notes, water rune, other regen ranger traits , traited water spirit etc..

So basiclly you dont want to explore our less “meta options”, use the same pets(brist/smoke) same triats like(druidic clarity ) and complain about limited build options?

I don’t think runes, sigils or consumables should be taken into consideration when it comes to how often we should be able to use our specialization mechanic. Also, don’t forget CA is already gated by icd.

Why not? runes, sigils or consumables are part of the game and can be part of a build. Its another options if you decide not to go one of the options above which are not runes, sigils or consumables. the 10 sec icd is only to denay some builds that can abuse some of the CA traits every 5 sec wich is possible if you build for it.

CA mechanic is not perfect, but its not due to lack of options to regenerate AF.

SO you are telling me, you also have to limit your sigil choices?

You want me to get sigils that generate AF and kitten a build?

One of the biggest issues with PvP and even WvW to an extent atm is that many builds can dip there hands into every pot without making sacrifices. Many of the Elite specs themselves are examples of this. Druid in its current form has very few relative limitations yet it provides massive sustain and control covering the core rangers only weaknesses without significant sacrifice.

There has to be a draw back when taking druid. At the moment the variance in astral force gain between different druid builds is the only variant. Which is why druid is in nearly every top ranger build at this time.

Don’t act like making a minor investment in order to gain access to druids massively powerful effects that cover the core classes weaknesses is some kind of huge drawback. Its not. If anything. Taking druid should FORCEFULLY cost you significant damage output. Maybe then we would see an actual difference between builds.

But since it doesn’t you can use any number of methods to generate AF. There are almost a dozen methods I can think of off the top of my head that will fill your AF nearly on cooldown. And more that will still provide you a steady stream (though they won’t be as fast). Take any of them. And give something up in return. Having everything you could ever want in a build is a bad design philosophy.

Edit: Edited to be less obnoxious to read.

Please do provide a build that does not use NM or BM that can be used in competitive pvp matches and without staff. I am curious to see what other people’s ideas are.

WS is also required for core ranger because 2 of our best condition removal options is there. Which I think is one of the glaring problems for druid/core ranger.

You simply cannot afford to take any other trait other than Druidic Clarity if you do not take WS for removal.

Anyway we can get back historical items on sale like Rox, Marjory, Kasmeer weapon skins?

LughLongArm.5460:

Dont agree, AF is fine. Builds must have some trade off, I dont think druids that invest 0 in tools that generate AF(and we have tons of thouse) should have rapid acsess to CA.

This list: @StickerHappy.8052

“Staff
Perma Regen
SotW”

doesnt include- TU, Rune of the Dolyak, natural healing trait, mango pie food(outside pvp) etc..

This list: @Tragic Positive.9356
“BM
Traited Healing Spring
Staff”
Doesnt include: fren hound, windbornen notes, water rune, other regen ranger traits , traited water spirit etc..

So basiclly you dont want to explore our less “meta options”, use the same pets(brist/smoke) same triats like(druidic clarity ) and complain about limited build options?

Again still limited to NM and BM? Which the meta is already those two?

Who uses water spirit and Fern hound in competitive PvP? Yes! 0

LughLongArm.5460:

OGDeadHead.8326:

LughLongArm.5460:

Dont agree, AF is fine. Builds must have some trade off, I dont think druids that invest 0 in tools that generate AF(and we have tons of thouse) should have rapid acsess to CA.

This list: @StickerHappy.8052

“Staff
Perma Regen
SotW”

doesnt include- TU, Rune of the Dolyak, natural healing trait, mango pie food(outside pvp) etc..

This list: @Tragic Positive.9356
“BM
Traited Healing Spring
Staff”
Doesnt include: fren hound, windbornen notes, water rune, other regen ranger traits , traited water spirit etc..

So basiclly you dont want to explore our less “meta options”, use the same pets(brist/smoke) same triats like(druidic clarity ) and complain about limited build options?

I don’t think runes, sigils or consumables should be taken into consideration when it comes to how often we should be able to use our specialization mechanic. Also, don’t forget CA is already gated by icd.

Why not? runes, sigils or consumables are part of the game and can be part of a build. Its another options if you decide not to go one of the options above which are not runes, sigils or consumables. the 10 sec icd is only to denay some builds that can abuse some of the CA traits every 5 sec wich is possible if you build for it.

CA mechanic is not perfect, but its not due to lack of options to regenerate AF.

SO you are telling me, you also have to limit your sigil choices?

You want me to get sigils that generate AF and kitten a build?

aelfwe.4239:

Exciton.8942:

Not a good way of playing. If you CS before you do all these actions, a good opponent will recognize it and either negate all your offensive effort or destroy your rift.

That’s why most ppl cast moa first and only CS at the end. That way if your opponent sees it coming and dodge/block/invul, you can still cancel cast your moa.

Not at all.

It’s not like that you are a bot that start the rotation or moa as soon as you see an enemy…

You chose when to cast moa, and this, usually, come not at real start of the fight, so than you can burn out some opponent skill, depending on the class you are fighting against.

I doubt anyway that you understand what i wrote, since the rotation it’s made exactly to avoid your opponent to dodge\block..

From my experience, if managed properly you can expect a success rate of 95+% over moa.

The 5% of fail is usually due to my mistake (starting the rotation too early vs a class with immunity out of gcd as other chrono, etc) or either, random event from team fight.

In that 5% of time you have not to forget that you will have every skill, shatter, tide of time, ileap, swap and moa back. And your opponent will have used everything to free out from your lock rotation —> aka: you can repeat the lock rotation to moa him, if you really think it’s needed, and it’s kinda impossible for your target to avoid it.

From my experience the precast moa —> cs vs good player 1vs1 on side nodes bring to many more avoided moa due to its predictability and to the fact you aren’t locking down your opponent.

Honestly outside teamfight, where you can hide your anymation between stuff, it’s kinda a cheap way to play, and using cs just for just moa without adding the 2x cc and 2x condie that it bring it’s really a waste.

StickerHappy.8052:

Why did you include CS?

We are just talking about Moa here. Never in my points did I mention CS.

Maybe because CS is a part of the game you are speaking off???

It’s not like if you didnt mention CS then it stop to exist so than you can approach me like a pro…

StickerHappy.8052:

Quick answer: You have a team to peel for you, Moa also has 2 evades. Moa is on a 180 second Cd. Moa can be LoS’d, Blocked, Blinded, Dodged.

That’s like 5 reasons I gave to you just now.

…explaining me something that is not goin to happen due to the existence of cs.

Here is where you baddies can’t wrap your head around:

MOA is a CORE MESMER Skill

The nerf that happened also affects CORE MESMER

So what happens to Core mesmer?

Those reasons I gave you are all part of it:

180 sec CD

LOS

Blind

Dodge

Block

echo.2053:

Imagine that…. If the class you enjoy isn’t the FOTM then current balance is a bust. If you can’t make it to legendary in the ladder then its the matchmaking fault…. theres absoluetly zero chance that players aren’t even remotely as good as they dream themselves as being….

yeah wvw grass looking greener because they took eight steps backwards with server merges ( what they should of done at game launch) and reverting maps back ( what they shouldn’t of changed to begin with)

To be fair, matchmaking is a known problem. Stop it with that elitism mentality.

I do not even why you guys are advocating 5 Ancient Seeds on a single target is okay.

To rely on such bug/broken mechanic is beyond me.

Ancient seeds is even good with the default effect.

Sean.8921:

Burtnik.5218:

gindoom.6032:

Moa is still very strong. 10 sec moa was just way to OP.
This is a good balance change.

On 180cd.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_X
Aoe, no tell and on 96cd. Balanced.

I understand your passion on this topic, so I ask you work with me in getting to the big picture of this nerf.

I argue Toss Elixir X should be inferior to SoH because of the following:

• Projectile-based: susceptible to reflects and projectile nullification and the risk is proportional to distance from the target.
• 3s duration: the victim can use #5, #2, and one dodge to kite and mitigate potential burst for nearly the full duration.
• 96s cooldown: comprehensively, Toss Elixir X has a 192s cooldown to get 6s of effect. The immediate counter argument here is an engi has two opportunities to moa. The problem there is 3s against a competent victim who can kite is too short to take advantage.

That last point is important. I think us PvPers generally agree that moa is a kill setup elite. It is meant to ensure a low health target goes down and the perfect example is a <20% hp, 100% shroud necro. The blessing of SoH is twice the window of opportunity compared to Toss Elixir X to burst and down the target. Additionally, CS expands the window if your team was not coordinated enough in the first attempt.

Losing four seconds in that window is significant, but everyone else will still respect it. In the grand scheme I can’t imagine mesmers subbing out SoH. I think the change did not alter the intent and dynamic of the skill because the most opportune moment to pop this elite is against a low health target; only now even lower.

You are missing that Elixir is AoE. 180 seconds vs 96 is a verryyy large margin. Elixir can make more clutch moments in a single game than moa. Resses, Stomps. The nerf to moa was super brainless.

You know whats more brainless, giving engie an AoE moa on a way lower cooldown.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Why encourage people who want to use a dps build even more to use druid (a healing/support focused specialisation!) instead of something like a dps oriented traitline? Those still exist, you know, even though almost nobody uses them anymore (in PvP).

It is already incredibly easy to gain AF and enter CAF on CD, even on dmg oriented builds without staff, if you build arround it.

Uhmm because you can provide Poison Master builds an viable way of having sustain and Cleanses?

Even Dps builds too.

I would like to agree.

We need reliable CAF generation without one of these stuff:

• Staff
• Perma Regen
• SotW

It is really build limiting.

aelfwe.4239:

StickerHappy.8052:

Quick answer: You have a team to peel for you, Moa also has 2 evades. Moa is on a 180 second Cd. Moa can be LoS’d, Blocked, Blinded, Dodged.

That’s like 5 reasons I gave to you just now.

Yeah, if you start from the assumption you sux as a mesmer you are right.

It’s an option.

My option instead, is that when i cast moa i’m under cs.

In the order, 3 illusion up:

1- cs —> chronphantasma you have 3 illusion back
2- Tide of time —> 1st stun
3- as soon the stun hit —> illusionary leap
4- distorsion
5- moa
6- swap
7- cs end

If your target dodge the 1st tide of time you can add a diversion.

So we have that:

1-you cannot be interrupted while casting moa cause you are under distorsion
2-when the moa hit your target, the target is either stunned\chain dazed
3-when the moa hit your target, the target is immobilized so no dodge, he cannot cleanse hisself due to point 2
4-you cast 3 shatter during the rotation so you cleanse yourself 3 times, and you have 2 free shatter to cleanse again. Each shatter hit a target (remove blind) and cleanse a condie. Getting to be blinded more than once\xx match is matter of being worst mesmer eu\us.
5-target los isnt an option if you done properly point 1,2,3,4. If this doesnt happens it’s a chrono ltp issue, not a target counter to moa.
6-since when moa hit the target you swap to the the target, he become moa immobilized, and since moa do not have condie cleanse he wont evade anywhere.
7- since all 1-2-3 rotation is under cs, after cs end you will have your skills\shatters rdy to be used again. That means you can immobilize, daze and stun the immobilized moa again.
8- in the while you do this you stack torment and confusion, so than, if the moa survive the first 4 sec, when your second immobilize end, as soon as he move he die.

If you have a party, then you can add on the moa 10x cc and 10x burst.

That’s how to play properly a chrono.

Then if you smash moa key “hoping” to not being dodged, blinded, interrupted, lsoed and praying your target to not being blocking or either in immunity… Well.

We play different xD

That’s like 8 reasons I gave to you just now.

Why did you include CS?

We are just talking about Moa here. Never in my points did I mention CS.

roamzero.9486:

StickerHappy.8052:

FrownyClown.8402:

StickerHappy.8052:

Razor.9872:

Zatoichi.1049:

FrownyClown.8402:

I can kind of agree. I’d increase the duration to around 20s to bring it in line with shortbow 5 cooldown. The skill should really be used for condi builds, but its not because the immobalize is very strong with builds that have lots of cc

who are u to say ancient seeds is a condi/shortbow trait? Shortbow is a trash weapon and every Ranger knows it, so I assume you must not play ranger. In pvp, Ancient seeds is, and has primarily been a used for its immob to lock down targets, set up bursts and decap , not the bleed. Its primary strength comes from LB point blank shot, Dazes from CA, and glyphs.

I cant believe that sheer lack of even basic understanding about the ranger class. Nerf Ancient Seeds? r u people serious?

Believe me, I find it hard to wrap my head around as well, but with the recent buffs it received shortbow is actually as strong as axe/dagger dps-wise (maybe stronger). In addition, if you do #5 quickly followed by #2 at point-blank range, you can proc 5 vines on a single target. Also #4 followed by bristle-back F2 is very strong.

I stopped reading when you said SB is as strong/er as axe/Dagger. Why? Just because of that bug?

Wow.

Anet can we get confirmation whether this was intended or it is a bug?

It’s common sense. You do not need Anet’s confirmation. Ancient seeds has 10 sec ICD. You hit 1 arrow of Poison volley = Procs 1 Ancient Seed.

You hit all arrows of Poison Volley all at the SAME TIME = Considered 1 attack = Procs 1 Ancient Seed.

It’s a no brainer.

Certain traits/abilities are designed to function per attack but apply affects to all targets hit. The necro trait that applies chill on blind was changed to behave this way so that it would work properly with the blind well.

Ancient Seeds probably was designed the same way so that it would combo with CA, Lunar Impact -> Natural Convergence. Whether Anet intended to keep it that way I dont know however, Druid was given very little beta feedback time.

LI CA combo is very hard to proc, so not really sure about the explanation of the design.

FrownyClown.8402:

StickerHappy.8052:

Razor.9872:

Zatoichi.1049:

FrownyClown.8402:

I can kind of agree. I’d increase the duration to around 20s to bring it in line with shortbow 5 cooldown. The skill should really be used for condi builds, but its not because the immobalize is very strong with builds that have lots of cc

who are u to say ancient seeds is a condi/shortbow trait? Shortbow is a trash weapon and every Ranger knows it, so I assume you must not play ranger. In pvp, Ancient seeds is, and has primarily been a used for its immob to lock down targets, set up bursts and decap , not the bleed. Its primary strength comes from LB point blank shot, Dazes from CA, and glyphs.

I cant believe that sheer lack of even basic understanding about the ranger class. Nerf Ancient Seeds? r u people serious?

Believe me, I find it hard to wrap my head around as well, but with the recent buffs it received shortbow is actually as strong as axe/dagger dps-wise (maybe stronger). In addition, if you do #5 quickly followed by #2 at point-blank range, you can proc 5 vines on a single target. Also #4 followed by bristle-back F2 is very strong.

I stopped reading when you said SB is as strong/er as axe/Dagger. Why? Just because of that bug?

Wow.

Anet can we get confirmation whether this was intended or it is a bug?

It’s common sense. You do not need Anet’s confirmation. Ancient seeds has 10 sec ICD. You hit 1 arrow of Poison volley = Procs 1 Ancient Seed.

You hit all arrows of Poison Volley all at the SAME TIME = Considered 1 attack = Procs 1 Ancient Seed.

It’s a no brainer.

aelfwe.4239:

StickerHappy.8052:

Duels are pathetic tho, If you are really good, then vs someone with what you run in an ACTUAL game.

Silverkey.2078:

Very many high CD skills are banned from duels. Those skills are not necessarily broken. They can turn the tides of a fight but have a very high cooldown so that this does not happen too often. But in a duel, turning the tides simply mean winning, so it is unwelcome.

Sigh, why i point the moon and you look the finger?

Btw, in your opinion guys, in a actual game, is moa an elite that promote skilled active gameplay with an active counterplay that deserve to bepreserved on a pvp game?

The second question is: in lol or dota, how many hero got skill that bird the opponent out of the fight for 10 sec?

Quick answer: You have a team to peel for you, Moa also has 2 evades. Moa is on a 180 second Cd. Moa can be LoS’d, Blocked, Blinded, Dodged.

That’s like 5 reasons I gave to you just now.

Silverkey.2078:

Eurantien.4632:

On paper I would agree with you. In practice nerfing this trait would be wrong. No skilled players has trouble with this trait. Despite how OP it seems, it is a minor annoyance at best.

Balance is not only for skilled player. This trait is actually very strong, especially because not all builds have the necessarily cleave to get rid of those vines. This trait adds to the long list of excessive CC that the druid specialization brought.

So if you nerf Ancient seeds, what will be left for the GM traits? Please do explain.

PS: Every decent player will bring a cleanse with him.

Razor.9872:

Zatoichi.1049:

FrownyClown.8402:

I can kind of agree. I’d increase the duration to around 20s to bring it in line with shortbow 5 cooldown. The skill should really be used for condi builds, but its not because the immobalize is very strong with builds that have lots of cc

who are u to say ancient seeds is a condi/shortbow trait? Shortbow is a trash weapon and every Ranger knows it, so I assume you must not play ranger. In pvp, Ancient seeds is, and has primarily been a used for its immob to lock down targets, set up bursts and decap , not the bleed. Its primary strength comes from LB point blank shot, Dazes from CA, and glyphs.

I cant believe that sheer lack of even basic understanding about the ranger class. Nerf Ancient Seeds? r u people serious?

Believe me, I find it hard to wrap my head around as well, but with the recent buffs it received shortbow is actually as strong as axe/dagger dps-wise (maybe stronger). In addition, if you do #5 quickly followed by #2 at point-blank range, you can proc 5 vines on a single target. Also #4 followed by bristle-back F2 is very strong.

I stopped reading when you said SB is as strong/er as axe/Dagger. Why? Just because of that bug?

Wow.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

It is very easy to proc ancient seeds frequently with lb unless the enemy has very high stab uptime.

The problem with ancient seed is, that it can be easily countered by certain skills/traits, but if your build doesn’t have freqent access to those, you are screwed. Easy to counterbuild, hard to counterplay. Like many things nowadays.

StickerHappy.8052:

Hmm not sure, pretty much seen warriors, fgs still moving while still being immobed

Warriors have a trait which allows them to remove immob with movement skills. It is an old trait and has nothing to do with the “movement impairing condis doesn’t affect movement skills”-change.

Thanks for the clarification. But I gotta say, people can still port while being Immobed, so there’s that one more counterplay.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

StickerHappy.8052:

2.) Movement Skills are not affected by Movement Impairing Conditions anymore,

Only applys to cripple and chill, not to immob.

Hmm not sure, pretty much seen warriors, fgs still moving while still being immobed