This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.
There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.
So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?
Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?
Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.
Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?
I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?
I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.
We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG
How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?
Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.
So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?
Well as a casual how about not having our main damage get sneezed on and die. How about more than golem rushing and veil. How about not having our clone generation tied to a master tier forcing us into a select build limiting our potential.
I want more traits skills that take us away from a dueling class. More aoe, let us step out from the roaming dps role.
What I feel happened is that ANet lost its original vision of the Mesmer shortly after release and they’re just going with the flow now.
I want a rework but that will never happen. Or maybe I’m just the only one that thinks shatters as a mechanic are completely opposed to a class that relies on deception and manipulation.
Nobody cares anyway, we’ll get our offhand shield and we’ll love it!
I have always been and will forever be a mesmer player but I see no future in the class. We’re a gimmick and that won’t change.
See? This is what I’m talking about here. Too much pessimism for this class, coming from people who play mesmer too.
This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.
There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.
So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?
Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?
Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.
Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?
I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?
I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.
We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG
How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?
Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.
So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?
you are missing my point. We need help in all game modes. Naming some builds and saying l2p is not constructive. Sadly like all Mesmer players l2p means roll another class.
You are the one missing the point,
You are the one one asking why not play something to win?
I gave you a list of builds that can be played to win.
You said that why play a class that does not help your team.
I gave you builds that help your team and can be played to win.
You cannot demand someone to give constructive talks when first of all you are running with a narrow minded approach
I can therefore conclude that this a L2P issue.
My narrow minded approach is one that says I want more than ok for conquest, more than veil golem rush, more for pve. Sure Mesmer is fun wouldn’t change why I play it but doesn’t change the problems. By saying l2p makes it seem like Mesmer is in a good place.
I am not a God of conquest but I can see problems when they exist.
I’m not saying its in the “best” place. and you are forgetting the fact that other classes have it worse. See Rangers, Necros.
Yes there stuff to fix/tweak, I am not denying that fact.
The real problem is how other mesmers act, like whining, acting like mesmer is really unplayable by saying there is only one viable build.
Come on, Have some pride in your class just for once.
Nobody goes into first line for shortbow builds! Especially not 4 points! Some might for the sharpening stone trait but that’s only 2! So piercing arrows only benefit longbow.
Beastmaster ranger isn’t really a pvp build except maybe to troll 1v1s!
Thieves can cloak and dagger repeatedly!
Who takes martial mastery anyway?
What is not constructive again?
They wanted to know your reasons for your suggestions.
you are missing my point. We need help in all game modes. Naming some builds and saying l2p is not constructive. Sadly like all Mesmer players l2p means roll another class.
You are the one missing the point,
You are the one one asking why not play something to win?
I gave you a list of builds that can be played to win.
You said that why play a class that does not help your team.
I gave you builds that help your team and can be played to win.
You cannot demand someone to give constructive talks when first of all you are running with a narrow minded approach
I just lost a game because one of my team mates let me down. How do you deal with such a situation in PvP. I tried to tell him that it was his fault but he got found innocent of blame by our team mates. I was in shock, and this caused the break up of our party.
How should you deal with allocating the blame in pvp?
P.s. I won’t name the player who cost me the game but his initials were P.H.D.
Why play something not to win?? Why play a class that can not help your team. So many flawed points. We play to win no matter what level of play, so playing something sub par is emo.
Subpar? Maybe you are playing subpar quality.
A lot of builds in Casual PvP can be played to win:
CI Lockdown (No team help? Has interrupts for resses and stomps, heals, AoE Dazes, Boonstrip)
Skcamow’s UW Build (No team help? Reflects, AoE Blinds, Phant Regen, Boon Strip)
Chaos’ Chaos Maestro (No Team help? Boon Share, Lockdown/ Interrupts)
Signet Mesmer Build (Do not get started with me saying this build sucks, See Countless)
Ross’ PhantAss Kicker (Burst, Interrupts)
Slim Chance’s MantraRupt (High COndi Removal, Interrupts, He Runs TW too, I’m guessing its for team play too? /duh)
MailMail’s Bunker Build (Can hold a point equally if not better than a guardian)
the problem is we as a community need to stop cutting each other throats and band together. We only have a very limited amount of builds. Then people start saying l2p. Your response had it all. Doubting the only viable build then stating l2p.
Band together and act like emos?
No thanks.
I will repeat what I said, yes there are mesmer issues that need to be tweaked or addressed BUT this is the same goes for other classes as well.
I can play other builds well enough to stop whining.
Only viable build is shatter? Or is it the only build you can play?
This response is why we cannot have nice things. Shatter is viable followed by lockdown that when it works it is awesome yet no cast bars and stability destroys this. Roaming pu yet if we say pu build everyone curls their nose as if this trait is for poor players and has no place in gw2. Mantra suffers from obvious issues and a signet build is just that the passives are awful and the active is useful for certain game modes making using this extremely niche.
What is wrong with my response? That Levetty guy is the one saying Shatter is the only viable pvp build.
Which I WHOLE HEARTEDLY DISAGREE WITH
Also about your lockdown comment, Stability? A Common CI Spec has Domination VII Traited. I don’t see whats the problem?
No Cast bars? Almost all heals have an obvious animation, most of the skills here in gw2 are also easy to interrupt with practice.
No but to be serious, while editing this I realised I never replace the underwater weapons/sigils/runes when switching builds. Do you guys ever bother doing that? I usually escape through water when I’m getting chased around the borderlands but I don’t really stay to fight in there. Also I have been using a shark and one of the jellyfish as underwater pets since launch and I have never paid attention if they are even any good, any suggestions?
Dont mean to be offtopic but whatever happened to Osicat?
I told you, forum thieves are incapable of constructive talks.
Appeals for talks are considered as threats to their class
Well, this subject only targets thieves by circumventing the normal operation of their class skills for the sake of one trait’s perceived inconsistency, so it is a threat to some people.
Add that to the fact that thieves get hit with the nerf stick constantly and you better be prepared to defend anything that cripples them further.
This is hardly a constructive topic, the main point of the whole thing is “I’m confused as to why a class that has its skills not centered around cooldowns don’t get a cooldown Specifically for my classes trait when I interrupt them. The trait is broken because thief (and only thief) weapon skills don’t get a cooldown introduced when I interrupt them, fix it. (even though the utility skills -and- healing skill does)”
Exactly the point. Then why dont you guys suggest another alternative? Since you guys are right, you dont have cds, then cant you suggest any other way for this trait then?
Then this thread will be constructive then.
Instead of acting all defensive and all that. Noone is asking to nerf thieves. Jeezus.
Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)
Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.
This is really just getting silly now, if we can push aside all the childish accusations of “ur bad. This is gibberish” and really have a discussion on the issue.
Thieves are immune to Power Block for the same reason they are immune to chill… Just because.
All the other examples given have a form of counterplay or a way of getting around it. Diamond Skin only works above 10% damage, zerk stance lasts a few seconds, some things are mitigated by the almighty dodge.
Power Block never has any chance of working on Thieves (in addition to being useless in PvE).
The question is whether or not this is actually good design, not over the math of how the skill works. The same way you say “lul play a thief” I could just as easily say “lel play a Mesmer and try that trait.”
So lets try this again, without the bias. I don’t think good that this trait works literally not at all against Thieves the same way I feel that Chill shouldn’t be just a glorified cripple for them. I feel like there should be an adjustment, even if there needs to be some sort of compensation as a result.
I think thieves are not capable of Constructive Talks
What about when someone uses Power Block on an opponent using Spatial Surge? That doesn’t give it a cooldown either. Maybe we should make Spatial Surge go on a ten second cooldown when it’s interrupted by Power Block. That’s fair, right?
Hello?
Lol. You do realize It only does not affect AAs in this situation. But it does affect the other 4.
The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY
Without any class bias.
Why are thieves being defensive?
The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.
Okay, want a fair compromise?
It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?
It does work properly.
Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10
Wow. what if mesmers are immune to blind from thieves only? I bet you thieves would whine so hard.
Joking aside, So what’s the sense of the GM trait? What if I came across two thieves in pvp, and only 50% of this trait will work properly since it doesnt affect their weapon skills?
One thing to note is that this won’t hit only mesmers. A change like this will produce a massive outcry from thieves, eles, and to a lesser extent necros as well. This doesn’t make it any less of a slap to the face to us, but it does mean that other classes will be clamoring for it to be removed as well.
You know, nothing really is worth as much as three main hand skills. Utilities always have 20-30s cooldowns, profession mechanics always have long cooldowns, and our mechanics have always been lackluster. So what could really make up for a new auto-attack doing power ranged damage without locking us into a GS?
Uhmm.. Mind wrack is 15 seconds? Shatter is lackluster? Whattttt?
4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.
This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.
Ok alanis, gimme 1?
MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)
Seriously Alanis do you even play a mesmer? Sure, does builds & others not mentioned are good. In the good old days. But i’m sorry, there no longer viable vs a thief among others. Not in a 1v1 situation. If you have help, no problem. but otherwise, plz stop trying to convince there’s no problem with the mesmer.
& no, it’s not a Boon problem. Boon traits we have. I’ve already mentioned what we lack of up in the thread. Read it!
Again saying there are no longer viable builds against thief is kitten. Also avoid your attacks to alanis. I wanna ask how many pvp games do you have? This might gives us a better idea on where you are at.
4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.
This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.
Ok alanis, gimme 1?
Condi Mesmer.
Ah yes, the famous Condi mesmer.. Aka (PU Condi). Yes that was the great thief equalizer. I use to play one. But guess what, PU got nerfed among the other things & is no longer the great equalizer. So try again… ps: If you get downed by a condi mesmer, maybe you might want to considder spamming on button number 2 instead of just the usual button mashing number 1 to kill the mesmer. That might help..
Most maim builds wreck thieves.
PU, played well, wrecks thieves.
Countless’ clone on death build obliterates thieves.
Certain celestial specs wreck thieves, though you won’t see them actively advertised here cause haters.
I could go on with various power builds but don’t see the point. Build diversity isn’t perfect but certainly not the problem in this case. There are plenty of viable builds that can be used when you see a thief on the other team. It just takes more experimentation to play these other builds so that when you’re up against a thief you have options, as opposed to the inflection in this thread that mesmers are rendered helpless against them.
In the past i would agree with you. But all does builds bin seriously chopped off & has not much to offer anymore. Shatter is the best bet that’s stands a chance IF your a great player at it. Unlike the 1-2 button smash where any newb can call himself a Gw2 master. Most thief i encountered do.
Shatter is the only thing that stands chance? Wth are you talking about? It seems like you cant or dont wanna play another build. And do not question my skills in pvp, i have faced really good thieves. Now for this matter, if you get owned on a tanky spec, i will say this is a l2p issue, all this crying makes me sick.
4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.
This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.
So you’re suggesting to build especially just against one class?
This is a dumb question tbh, no offense.
Would you go against a condi class without 0 cleanse and expect to win?
Would you run towards an LB ranger with no reflects and expect to win?
Yes you can win against them but only at a very very low percent. same as your thief situation. Change builds and Adapt.
Yes you can build to counter another class’ build to win, not just thieves.
The hard counter happens against Shatter Mesmers, or other zerk specs, you can play another spec if you get frustrated.
I for one would respec for my team.
UNLESS you can only play 1 build.
Again, Its not just about building against thieves, you must be able to adapt to any situation.
Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.
Then the real problem is lack of build diversity. =P An option to spec tankier while still being effective is needed. Hopefully the expansion will remedy this.
I really beg to disagree with the diversity thing.
Its either:
1.) People still won’t hop off the meta train/popular builds and try to experiment. (i.e. zerk CI build vs A Condi CI build)
2.) When People experiment, they don’t a lot enough time to test builds leaving the potential of a build greatly undiscovered.
3.) When people post/share their builds on the forums, the so called “pros” shoot them
down immediately without them testing the build itself, making the poster discouraged. (i.e. Cele builds)
4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.
There are a lot of revamps/fixes/ tweaks that the mesmer class needs which also limits diversity, but the main thing I see is the lack of courage to experiment.
I hope it won’t be useful. Putting shield on a mesmer is the stupidest thing Anet ever came up with. Another proof that they have no clue what the class is. I guess the whole mesmer thing was just added to shut the GW1 players up (they’d have rioted if no mesmer was added to GW2). Maybe the devs who created the class are gone by now.
No one knows what the weapon skills are.. Too early to say that it is a bad idea right? The exaggeration is real….
Sigils are powerful, build altering options. This is true, but there are no great arguments at this time as to why a single target, avoidable, 6 second duration poison attack after swapping weapons, is objectively better than the the other top swap sigils, or crit sigils.
“Doom Sigil is OP because Celestial Builds can outsustain better.”
I think your wording here has made it evident the problem does not lie within the Doom Sigil but in Celestial Builds. Please tell me about how good Doom Sigil is whenever your profession doesn’t have poison, when anyone who can use Air/Fire is doing so, even if they have no poison.
1. Sigil of Doom isn’t exactly avoidable in most uses. Perhaps against a warrior where you can pay attention to the weapon-swap, but against something like an ele or engie that can swap attunements/kits mid-attack, thus instantly applying, its not really avoidable.
2. High sustain builds on classes like ele and warrior play the attrition game via might-stacking to win. Regardless of cele amulet, soldier (warr), or valks (ele), doom sigil synergizes with that strategy to such a powerful degree and pushes their high-healing over-the-top in a fight by applying so much -healing pressure to opponents. These classes are balanced around not having access to lots of poison.
3. Experience. Fight as a d/d cele ele without doom sigil and you do WAY less pressure than with. I have even watched streams of either OE or you (can’t recall which) from a few months back when people were figuring out the meta, and stating that your pressure is WAY higher (as an engie) when you have doom sigil, even though you had access to a good amount of poison with nades. You can still test this. Play a cele ele or warrior without doom and your TTK goes WAY up, even against non-cele builds. In fact, some fights that would be unfavorable are now in your favor as a cele ele thanks to doom sigil.
Also, fire/air is stupid too, for different reasons, but that should also be fixed as well. However, I will say that builds that use fire/air still have burst potential without these sigils. Cele builds (esp. warr/ele) have NO access to poison in any way without this sigil.
A couple patches ago, killing Phanta with Battle/Doom on my Engi was often impossible without a godly amount of RNG, with Intelligence over Doom, it was possible.
Doom is certainly more fire and forget than Intelligence though, I’ll say that much.
Also, when I dueled Toker’s Acro-SD Thief with Leeching/Doom, I hit maybe like one in 4 due to his ability to dodge most auto-attacks. So I typically went like 30 seconds at a time where Leeching/Doom were literally doing absolutely nothing. Mesmers are similar, Doom/Leeching are totally unreliable with clones eating it/dodging of auto attacks/invulns.
Also everyone in this thread talks about Doom in a 1v1 setting where it most shines. What about other fights where poison upkeep is literally a joke to achieve? Stacking Doom Sigils doesn’t translate into more pressure. This is why things like Battle/Intelligence/Air/Fire shine harder, because Conquest isn’t a long string of 1v1s.
For mesmers, you still get the leech on clones tho. Esp when you have geo/leech.
what’s so funny about it? it’s the downright truth. It just so happens that I was there when all the magic started, if anyone has any insight to give about that team then I’d be that guy. The key to it all is time played…
I’m not saying that I’m not a no lifer, as a matter of fact I’m even worse of a nolifer because my no-lifing isn’t sending me on a trip this time around. Not that it’s my fault :P
The solution is nerf d/d weapon skills or traits or hoelbrak/sigilf of doom etc..
And staff ele, rifle engie and shoutbow weapon skills and traits. Why are you so focused on one celestial build when all of them are imbalanced? Celestial engi is the most often used build along with d/p thief and dps guardian.
Staff ele is fine. It acts more like a bunker/support than anything else. Most of its dmg can be avoided by people steping out of the red circle…
I am focusing in d/d ele because in the beggining of the topic we were discussing engi. And then pvp specialist asked a question about ele. When everyone was talking about engi I was talking about nerf IP, gear shield ,etc.. Also nerfs for heolbrak or doom would be universal and hit war/engi too.
Warrior got hit the most from the might nerf. They also go addrenaline nerf. A small tweak at healing shout trait reducing base healing and increasing the scaling with healing power would be enough.
You focus on D/D, because you lose to it quite frequently.
It requires more skills to avoid its dmg..it’s not a matter of simply walk away from it like you can do with staff, have a staff ele that kills people and suddenly staff ele becomes OP too…oh wait that guy @Lordrosicky was complaining already about staff eles, saying how braindead were and how hard was to avoid their attacks.
*MMO Rule n1= as long as it doesn’t kill me, it’s not OP"
About your idea that nerfing celestial is not the way to go.
You have 6 profession with a viable zerker build, but none of them get stacked, you have 2 professions that use celestial, but only one of them can be stacked with greater success rate.
You already can’t use celestial as you’ve stated so I don’t see how the nerfing of this amulet would hurt your profession and the other 5, as told already by the OP on page 1, the problem is stacking of celestial builds, not a specific profession alone.
But pls feel free to prove me wrong, find me a successful team that runs double of anything but not celestial..gl
I main celestial elementalist. What are you talking about? Stop making assumpions about things you have 0 knowledge about.
In a 1v1 situation, If you can pull out a couple of phantom out to keep him busy wile you direct damage from distance the healing turret. Do so. #Number 1..Kill the Healing turret… With it, he is next to impossible to put down. with out, his life points melts away.
So i will just overcharge my turret before you kill it?
Yes you may but it still gonna die. Then you. Worst comes to worst i moa your head see how overcharge you can turret..
Ill overcharge my turret immediately after using it to burst heal so technically you cant kill what is already dead.
In a 1v1 situation, If you can pull out a couple of phantom out to keep him busy wile you direct damage from distance the healing turret. Do so. #Number 1..Kill the Healing turret… With it, he is next to impossible to put down. with out, his life points melts away.
So i will just overcharge my turret before you kill it?
yes you are right, the conventional CI mesmer will use their interrupts on important skills. But skilled ones will interrupt your AA to setup all kinds or bursts and chain rupts.
What should i say as necromancer? Mesmer have much better access to torment, a mechanic that was essentially a necromancer elite in gw1 (see http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Weaken_Knees).
The punishment play style necromancer (and mesmer) had in gw1 is non existent in gw2 for necros apart from the 3 aoe torment stacks get every 40 seconds in DS…
Warriors? Distracting Strikes trait. Hammer + Mace = how many interrupts? This is without Perplexity BTW
Hotjoins nowdays are just dailies and people farming newbs who don’t realize people can farm them in PvP.
It isn’t like the old days where hotjoins were fun and good matches.
Best bet is to just do unranked and ranked.
Or learn about farming newbs in hotjoins and farm newbs too!
I can’t recall that. Do you perhaps post from another universe?
Loong agooo, When Raid of C was still here, I do agree with kong, before was way fun.. and people really sticked in HJ if it was 5v5 for 3-4 maps straight.
