Guild Wars 2

Ithilwen.1529:

I meant that I consider Power Block an unreasonably weak skill for having to go 6 into a trait line to get it.

In addition, I think thieves are already underpowered, and for that reason I don’t agree that a change that specifically targets thieves should be made.

Thieves underpowered? Maybe thats the reason why almost every team has one?
/smh.
Anyway back to topic

Specifically targeting thieves, it currently ONLY does not affect thieves (weaponset wise).

Hello? /wat /facepalm

Xyonon.3987:

They shouldn’t let the phants count for ranger runes 6th bonus, they should just let phants be affected by runes in general. Scholar runes? Phants with 90%+ HP get 10% dmg bonus, and so on.

That would be broken. lol. Rune of the Eagle? now every phant has increased hit chance for low hp threshold.

Runes of the ogre, ranger, scholar? Pair that with Empowered Illusions and Phantasmal strength. 40% more phantasm damage, this is before stats too.

Ithilwen.1529:

@StickerHappy.8052 What can I say? I disagree. Having mained Mesmer for the majority of my PvP matches.

Also, read more carefully. I said “isn’t a particularly good skill…” I went on to qualify the statement by saying that there are better options.

Is power block a viable skill? probably. I decided not to use it after it was insta nerfed. Do I think there are better things to trait for? yes.

You said in any situation. so what does that mean? The problem with the trait is because it does not serve its purpose for all classes, so what if we have a thief in other team’s comp? PB will not affect them so you wont use it,

So what if it affected them? I bet you too would use it on one point or the other. This is the problem we have, we have better options instead of using it because it is broken.

Ithilwen.1529:

Thieves, like their Mesmer sisters, have already been way overnerfed. Power Block isn’t a particularly good skill in any situation. There are much better options.

Countering thieves is about stopping or evading the stealth/backstab burst. Drop Chaos Storm on yourself. Use sword 3, or the scepter block. That will be far more effective.

We are not talking about counter measures. We are talking about how to make the Trait fair for everyone.

PB is not good in any situation? You lost credibility in this statement. 10 second CD on heal is painful even for mesmers.

It has do something with power block since the trait effect is for Cooldowns. Thats the matter of this debate.

Uhmm mr morbid, my entire point is not about anything like 1v1s or metas,

I and the enitre mesmer community find it rather absurd that our GM trait have a class exclusion, that is why the existence of this thread.

As a thief, you are also agreeing to me that against thief, mesmer has a really bad spot with them or against them, so with that in mind, our new GM trait is also shying away from a thief.

So as a thief yourself, what changes should you give? just to make the trait not worthless against something.

The problem I have with thieves is that, some of em (or most, forumers mostly) keep saying that this a l2p issue, and acting some aggressive defensive stances against your class, whether it be theory wise or meta wise.

So my final question is, do you think mesmers are in bad spot against thieves like yourself? So what do we do to PB to alleviate that problem?

morbidillusion.2759:

StickerHappy.8052:

DISCLAIMER: I do not want thieves to be nerfed, I just want a complete working GM trait with no class exceptions.

The trait doesn’t have any class exceptions though. There’s no complaint about power block vs. other class auto-attacks. Why? Every ability with no cooldown reacts the same way to power block and every valid power block target a thief uses goes on the 10 second cooldown. The simple fact is that it’s not a good trait choice versus the current thief meta. If hide in shadows was meta, it would be great against them, because PB is awesome against anyone that uses a casted heal.

@morbid

Building my own PB? how?

Withdraw – Instant
Infil signet – Instant
Shadowstep – Instant
SR – 1/4 cast, very hard to interrupt
BP – Instant

Are you dense? Half of my post, which you quoted, explains how you can get many thieves to lose 9 initiative and their attempt at stealthing with a single use of mantra of distraction and guarantee it with with two uses of mantra or GS 5.

So is there any real reason to trait PB if this is the situation?

A 1v1 against a thief? No. There’s also no reason to play a thief in a 1v1 against any class but a thief or mesmer. This game is full of traits that are less potent / almost useless against certain builds and classes. Seriously, how good is PB against a meditation guardian? Their entire heal/utility/elite kit is immune to it and they have way too much offense that even a perfectly interrupted med guard is pumping out tons of DPS. He probably doesn’t even notice you ’rupted him because he made an instant corpse out of you.

What’s your point? Because that’s mine. The effectiveness of PB builds has nothing to do with how it effects thieves and if anyone is acting spoiled it’s the mesmers who think the trait should be buffed because it isn’t strong against meta thief builds. It’s also a trash trait against a lot of other builds.

What about the warrior stun break trait against builds that don’t use stuns? What about the thief 10% damage against targets with condi’s against a D/D ele? What about Assassin’s Equilibrium for every reason imaginable?

and we have S/D which is VERY HARD to land an interrupt if its evaded all time.

Interrupt what, bud? S/D literally has no interruptable abilities. 2 (return) and 4 are both 0.25 seconds and not reasonably interruptable by a human being and CnD is 0.5 seconds and never used. This statement itself shows how little you know about your opponent, something that simply does not work as a lock-down mesmer. Your interrupt got evaded? Guess what, it wasn’t going to interrupt something anyway. You missed.

I am talking about semi-above average thieves here, pls do not tell L2P or give generic advice against bad thieves.

Yeah. And I’m talking about semi-competent mesmers. If you have mantra of distraction and have any decent knowledge of D/P thieves you have a really strong opportunity to shut the class down whenever they lay Black Powder, and it’s also one of the easiest abilities things react to and ’rupt.

Yes exactly, 1v1 a thief? you said no. I agree, but in conquest you can never really avoid a 1v1 forever, soon enough that time will come. So you are saying too that PB is a worthless trait against thieves?
For the Medi Argument, again good points, but their weapon skills are not immune to PB, so case in point, you can interrupt weapon skills (where most of the damage comes from) to mitigate the damage, so in a way, PB also helps shut down the offence.

For thieves, what does PB do? YES you are right, NOTHING

You said PB has no exceptions? It has, The thief weapon set is immune to PB for that matter, wouldnt you call that an exception? The meta does not dictate it, whatever the meta is, you will be still be immune to PB considering its Trait description and the Initiative mechanic as of now

For the S/D one, AA is still interruptable, but not affected by PB, so case in point it STILL has interruptable sources.

For D/P argument, VERY GOOD POINT, but then again it works the other way around too. A decent thief will know that. How? The MoD icon charge is visible on the “Real Mesmer”, would you Combo BP for stealth if he had that?

Correct me If I’m wrong your post literally says that PB has no great effect (if any at all) against thieves, making your class have a special free pass against it? (PS: im not mad or anything I hope you are too, so please continue)

messiah.1908:

StickerHappy.8052:

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

If they are using carrion on the other hand, stay ranged and kite, since they will be squishy as a kitten

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well! – hard fight indead

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back. and flip them back again or cleanse and start over

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite. dont stay in range versus ranger

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

pls stand for 5 sec letting my 3 staff clones hit you for 10 bleed burning poison
2k dps for 5 sec is 10k dmg then if you cleanse shatter on you for 6-9 confusion again and torment all over again

mtd while can do 1v1, in tpvp i think its made more for group play 2v2 3v3 etc
the staff clones can spread conditions and boons vigor and might

How can you have 3 staff clones for 5 secs, if you play a shatter build? so might as well do a regular condi build without MtD if you say standing still will kill me?

morbidillusion.2759:

I actually think Power Block is working as intended, since all skills with no cooldown are immune to power block and general interrupt cooldowns. Not only that, but thieves are not penalized by interrupts by design. The only two abilities that carry any penalty for being interrupted, other than lost casting time, are Heartseeker and Unload.

Thieves are not immune to power block, they are just very poor targets because they only use 1 skill that has a decent cast time and a cooldown and it’s basilisk venom. But if we leave meta-land, a power block on Hide in Shadows would probably kill a Thief every time it lands, and there would be many opportunities to interrupt a trap thief. This complaint seems pretty bogus because power block is a really strong GM trait compared to some others (Assassin’s Equilibrium, please bro), and it’s mostly a complaint about how the current thief meta doesn’t have a target for it.

BTW, you can already build your own power block on thieves (D/P, you can’t interrupt S/D anyway) and you don’t even need the trait.

BP + HS is a 9 initiative combo and it takes a total of 1.25 seconds to complete and it is the most telegraphed ability in the game. Interrupt the heartseeker and the thief doesn’t gain stealth and loses 3 initiative for certain. If the thief is very experienced he can double back on the powder and still gain stealth with a second HS but most will “wtf” and die. This is assuming you didn’t use GS 5 to interrupt him and you don’t follow up with GS 5 or any kind of immob, stun, etc. or simply the second charge of mantra of distraction.

With that done, the thief incurs a total of 9 seconds in cooldowns for all of his weapon skills. Mesmers running mantra of distraction are actually well suited to shut down a D/P thief from stealth without any help from Power Block.

You answered the unfairness of this trait with your post.

DISCLAIMER: I do not want thieves to be nerfed, I just want a complete working GM trait with no class exceptions.

What you said was clearly right in a sense, but The current status of the PB trait against classes (Revenant says hello in the future) cuts a percentage of build diversity.

Again defending an argument saying that “thieves are immune because of design” is admitting that thieves do not want any constructive arguments since the aspect of the “design rebuttal” limits any more chances for other ideas.

Why not say, “This trait should affect thieves differently by…..”

If this trait behaved differently and AFFECTED ALL CLASSES whether EQUALLY or BY A DIFFERENT EFFECT PER CLASS there will be a chance for a different role for mesmers.

Again, I can’t believe how thieves are acting with these posts, they sound like spoiled little kittens.

No offense pro thief players but if you examine it closely it is US mesmers should be acting defensive.

Why?

Our class mechanic (phantasms) which is also a major source of our damage is hard countered by blinds (which you thieves have an abundance of)

So why are there these narrow minded responses? Are all thieves like this?

@morbid

Building my own PB? how?

Withdraw – Instant
Infil signet – Instant
Shadowstep – Instant
SR – 1/4 cast, very hard to interrupt
BP – Instant

^this is just D/P, excluding HiS if one slots it in and BV.

Thats 9 UNINTERRUPTABLE Skills + Steal

So is there any real reason to trait PB if this is the situation?

and we have S/D which is VERY HARD to land an interrupt if its evaded all time.

I am talking about semi-above average thieves here, pls do not tell L2P or give generic advice against bad thieves.

Crapgame.6519:

Ok, watching now since I believe I actually spoke to you the other night after a scuffle in EBG.

Good map awareness. Avoided several Rapid Fire barrages. Not afraid to reset fight and re-engage when out numbered. You are also an above average player After actually running into you in EBG and seeing how you can get away I’d say you could play in your skivvies and do perfectly fine.

I was going to say something about uptick/scale players but you know, they are there and if left unattended can still do harm. Heck, if I run into a group they are my first target also. Oddly enough that upscale Guardian seem to hold his own. I was expecting him to go down quick but for whatever reason he didn’t.

Good video though and thanks for sharing.

What????? No offense but he is not an above average player! He is one of the best rangers I know! so he is really good…

Wile.5024:

MailMail.6534:

Now for the other poster here who needs some feedback.

do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts. Scepter isn’t a great weapon but it works great in this build.

Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking

I’m trying to be respectful here, but this is a very foolish thing to count as a “con”. It’s not just you, but many people have said this, so maybe I’m just frustrated hearing this ridiculous statement. Let me ask you a question: if a player isn’t moving and a player isn’t using any skills, in what state is he most likely in? No no, not the downstate darling, he’s probably dead.

Rhetorical questions aside, confusion/torment is a soft lockdown that is HIGHLY effective in the right hands. It’s really the most polite way to kill your opponent, because you’re giving them the choice on how they’d like to die. Either they smash keys and kill themselves (warriors, rangers and thieves) or they sit there not doing anything. The latter essentially means you’re you’ve locked an opponent down to the point where you can temporarily +1 a fight or get extra dmg off of him via another player. Please explain to me how this isn’t a pro, because I’m confused now.

Also as a side note: power gs is more or less a melee weapon

This is just factually wrong. GS’ AA attack encourages the player to be further away to do more damage. The knockback on GS5 essentially screams “GET OUT OF MELEE RANGE”. The cripple on pBerserker synergies with keeping enemies at bay and unable to reach melee range in the first place. So there’s nothing really Melee about GS except for maybe Mirror Blade.

Ok first I wouldn’t call 5 stacks of confusion applied slowly in 3 seconds a burst, it’s horrible. Even better the skill gets easily canceled if you’re not facing the enemy properly + the LAZOR animation is clearly visible and therefore easy to counter.

Let’s imagine a situation where you’ve successfully bursted someone with for example 6 stacks of torment and 9 confusion… what does a decent enemy do in this situation? Does he keep autoattacking and running? Answer: he knows you’ve just spent your main burst, you don’t have clones up, he would stop and condicleanse before doing anything else. If he doesn’t have condicleanse he would possibly wait for the 9 stacks of confusion to go away since the duration is really short.

The damage difference between two cases is HUGE, that is why I listed torment and confusion as unreliable.

Idk how you play power but gs melee shatter has the potential to instantly kill a zerk player from full hp. Sure you can (and you should) shoot beams and drop izerkers from distance but the main burst is melee range => that’s why I said it’s more or less a melee weapon

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

If they are using carrion on the other hand, stay ranged and kite, since they will be squishy as a kitten

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well!

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back.

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite.

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

I think it would only do minimal changes, since getting you to a max 4 clones would require more time than getting to 3 (i.e. burns out more endurance, etc)

Anomaly.7612:

Rome.7124:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Bojoo.7819:

That would be fine if every thief weapon would have its own initiative pool.
Right now, it would brokenly broken thieves. Lets say you interrupt 5/6 initiative skill and thief loses 10/12 initiative because power block. You do what then as a thief? Die because someone used 1 skill?

If you interrupt not thief class skill it goes on double cd, he can use other skill who are not on cd, he can wep swap and still try to do something.

As a thief you would be left with nothing. Cant use most of skills because no initiative. Weapon swap and then what, AA? It’s stupid and it wouldn’t work.

Also, guess what? Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Hence I think interrupt causes a 5 seconds CD on thief skill is more reasonable than burning initiative. This makes thieves suffer the same consequences as other classes, no more, no less. But apparently some thieves can’t survive when one or two skills are disabled for 5 seconds, their defensive responses and play on words are hilarious to watch tbh. I can go into chill but our focus is on power block.

+1

Sadly, probably most Anet developers play thieves, that would explain why the extra treatments given to the class.

Can you please elaborate on these “extra treatments” please? I’d love to know what I have in my toolkit. Thanks.

Chill does not affect thieves like other classes. (no Cd Reduction on weapon skills)
Power Block does not affect Thieves’ weapon skills. ( A Gm Trait) AT THE SAME TIME interrupting commonly used utility skills is a problem too because of insta-casts and very low cast time. So PB will not work on weapon sets AND Utility skills have whack a mole scenario for interrupts.

FYI if you dont know, A GM trait requires full 6 point investment for a trait that exempts another class.

Hitting someone while stealthed but manages to block the thief’s attacks will not reveal them, making them land another shot or BS still from stealth.

What say you?

Yes, I am calling you out.

How do you sword 2 forward? The first press

ronpierce.2760:

Also:
Make chill slow init regeneration by 66%.
Teleports now cause additional ticks of damage from torment (1 tick per 100u moved)
Sleight of Hand no longer reduces Steal cooldown, as it is redundant, instead, daze lasts 1.5 second.
Logging into a thief comes up with a heads up display now. “You are playing thief, please reconsider. Would you like to change character? (Yes)” No “no” button because it won’t be necessary. Good luck everyone! Balance is served!

Do not forget powerblock

This sounds good

SobeSoul.6910:

Ranger should have same exact range as Mesmer.

It does untraited, but if you make it that way, Rangers would suck more. Cmon I main mesmer, but you gotta show some sympathy to other classes too. Rangers are in a bad state as it is. Mesmers and Necros too.

rainisword.7860:

No matter how they balance the game, something will always be meta and certain things will not be viable. PvP in every game is like this. It could definitely better but its not ever going to be a truly “play what you want and you’re equal with everyone else” meta.

But we do have a lot of useless traits.

Blinding Beffudelement?
Disruptors Sustainment?
Bountiful Disillusionment?
Power Block?
Confusing Enchantments?

SAY WHAT???

Give me a month of testing, but I only do PvP, so is there any way to switch the runes without Gimping the build?

Tragic Positive.9356:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

…
How is being at range, dealing huge damage, ever a problem for a team game? That’s like saying a Mesmer won’t ever be Meta because they have to fight off point with Greatsword. It’s simply not a disadvantage, in any way. When you’ve four other players on your team capable of staying on point, the Ranger is in an excellent position to pin point targets, remain unharmed and use their utility from a long way away. Perhaps I’m a half-full sort of guy, but the Ranger being ranged is a huge advantage if your team actually use that range to their advantage. I know in the many tournament games I’ve played, targeting players who are downed, preventing stomps or pressuring a bunker is incredibly easy – all the while I’m out of the way.

Exactly because this is a team game.
A thief can prevent Finishers WHILE holding onto a point. AND dishing out better damage AND better utility.

While YOU think that it is an advantage to be at range (aka it’s more difficult to target you), it’s especially your team who is going to think otherwise.
While you are ranging the point safely (dishing lower damage than Thieves or Mesmers who are suited to fight on points), your team is suffering from lack of HP pools – which means they are going to be downed easier. And you are NOT going to be there to help Rally them or Revive them.

You see, they don’t really have to kill you. They just need to mitigate your Barrage/Rapid fire and that’s it. And there are lots of ways to do that.

You see, auto-attack damage for roughly 1300 per second that is single target is not even close to celestial ele/engi damage output that, sadly, is AoE.
I actually blow out much higher DPS in my celestial (not even full condi) Ranger build – but I have 22K hp and if you get caught in entangle – you die in 4 seconds straight from full HP. Not to mention that I’m basically condition immune, I bring team utility and it’s actually pretty difficult to kill me.
And I am capable of reviving my teammates by immobilizing enemies, knockbacking enemies and fearing them – On every single map there is. And yes, my build is suited for on-point fighting.

In one way or another – Power Ranger is horrible unless you orientate all the team and strategy around them. Which is far too much investment knowing that the reward is not even going to be half as much as an Ele would bring.

You wanna share this build of yours?

If you cleanse during entangle and not move, the immob will reapply itself.

frifox.5283:

Fay.2357:

Well, if you’re using scepter in PvE, you’ve made a massive mistake, so there’s that.

I’ve made a huge mistake…

http://youtu.be/RNepDf9hBHU
http://youtu.be/tty1b6xcD7s

Kamisama Hajimemakittena!

Good videos, but I think pyro was more of talking bout the generic hearts pve map completion kinda thing.

PS: Are you running on all high on settings? Nanami is so cute..

I found these on reddit from the china patch notes, But Google translate is lols

Phantom Mesmer skills: ? These skills generated phantom items will be brought back with the correct phantom effect. These phantom skills will be able to display correctly generated effects have phantom items back . ? Flash Teleport: This ability can not find a valid path between the target time will not start. With the skills to lift the unconscious effect unless it is under control . ? Focus mantra : applying a 3-layer solid ally will activate each time the spell

If anyone can clarify more, It would be greatly appreciated.

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2yrugo/1332015_original_patch_note_from_china

Ross Biddle.2367:

So its a 5 min clip of you talking to the internet about your skill predictions? Is it just me who finds that a really weird thing to do in a redundant sort of way?

Ssshhhh Rosss..

Fay.2357:

hardloop von edgehoven.8512:

Fay.2357:

Well, if you’re using scepter in PvE, you’ve made a massive mistake, so there’s that.

.

No wonder Devs dont even bother to think about changing stuff. Why should they, if evryone is playing with the same kitten anyway once they figured out/limiting themself in one meta playstyle.

You don’t make any sense. Using scepter in PvE is a massive mistake because scepter is an awful PvE weapon. It’s not the fault of the players that scepter is absolute trash, it’s the fault of the devs. Blaming people for playing with non-trash equipment is simply ludicrous.

As I always say, feel free to use whatever you want, just keep in mind that using scepter in pve means you are bad.

I agree with Pyro, Stepping out of the Meta is a good thing, But Using Scepter in PvE is utter garbage.

UNLESS you wanna finish hearts or map completion or LS for x5 more time.

Ynot.8397:

Dhampyr.2813:

Ynot.8397:

NeXeD.3042:

Ynot.8397:

NeXeD.3042:

Ynot.8397:

I really like shrouded removal for power builds because they really have the most to fear from those immob spamming builds and they usually don’t last as well with condis. I like staff mastery more on condi builds because I use soul marks and it helps to get the extra life force. This is especially true at the start of the match.

If you like shrouded removal so much you should try out the sigils that give back conditions. I think they’re called generosity. I’ve found that those have been really fun in pvp. They are not really necessary but it can be really useful.

Are you sacrificing master of terror for soul marks? not sure that’s the best idea unless you have 6 in spite…. still even then your losing some good cc duration… and sacrificing points in curses For dm traits….. for staff… play what you like I suppose but eventually I think every necro figures out our place in pvp is +1 bursting the living kitten out of people.

You really don’t need master of terror to burst people down. I generally have no issues. With my build I can keep myself up while being focused so the team doesn’t need to keep me alive. I feel like that is well worth the trade off. I also run a much tankier than average spectral build though.

What exactly is the build you are running? From your first comments I though it was condi, but your saying spectral build…. so not condi? Or is it condi without terror? or are you just calling it spectral while taking no spectral traits? Or do you forego one of the only reasons to be a condi necro in Corrupt Boon?

If your build is so tanky then I’m guessing your burst is pretty much nil.

Everyone eventually figured out our role is +1 bursting people down. You’ll figure it out too =)

I’m not really sure how you didn’t know how to use condi and spectral skills together. The two are not mutually exclusive. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNArYWjc00bb5NG3wfbighSqWI6GIAOXq/iroJA-TZQZAAQZAA
I say spectral because I’m using a spectral trait(not both to be fair) and 2 spectral skills. Not really worth using spectral attunement in pvp. Hard to give up on terror.

That looks like a really solid build. mind if i ask what you use for sigils and runes?

Anyways as for shroulded removal. I find it to be a really useful trait and as stated before I find it normally removing fear or immobilize from me. Ill be disappointed if we end up getting resistance instead of removing a condition. Boon duration just does not feel like it will ever be a priority for necro builds. But I guess for the sake of build diversity we could use it.

For sigils I’ve been using energy and generosity lately. My runes are usually grenth.

I’d rather shrouded removal never get resistance. It doesn’t seem to be worth as much as removal. I don’t think I like the idea of necros getting more boons except vigor and stability. Doesn’t really fit the theme of the class very well.

Excuse me kind sir, How does generosity help you if you only have 18% crit chance. I am just curious to know.

Just look for the explosion effect when you kill your clones. Then Look for the stacks.

DarkSyze.8627:

StickerHappy.8052:

Which part of the shatter do you die most often?

• When In GS?
• Staff?
• Stealth?
• Sword?

Great Sword because the mesmer was about 1200 range, with no stealth

What class do you play?

Which part of the shatter do you die most often?

• When In GS?
• Staff?
• Stealth?
• Sword?

And what class do you play?

TyPin.9860:

I agree with StickerHappy here. It is a change that effects balance on a larger scale. It affects all boon removal, including sigils. So in result, it could change the whole balance. How we will end up in this new balance depends on the actual implementation.

If for some skill staby is generated every 3 seconds, it would leave you the chance of boon stripping the staby and right afterwards applying the CC. If at all it requires better coordinated team play, or a better timed rotation.

These days you simply strip the staby and have ages time to apply your CC. After patch you might have only 3 seconds, but that doesn’t mean you won’t be able. And if you miss your CC and hit the new staby stack, then you reduced it still making the target potentially susceptible to further (unkoordinated) CC…

Exactly this. Its not as if you can’t strip other boons as well. Lol.

DaShi.1368:

I play standard shatter.

I’m talking about where is the build? I told Zmodd that I don’t wanna share my builds anymore right, and you said I should put my mouth where my money is.

I posted my build.

How bout you? what did/can you contribute?

DaShi.1368:

You should put your money where you mouth is.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Phantasmic-Interruptions-Phantasm-Lockdown/first

The Original CI build.

How about You?

DaShi.1368:

So you are saying a nerf that affects more than one class is no longer a nerf?

Okay dude, I don’t see what is your issue with it. You make it sound like that boonstrip is the only way to deal with the stability. You can still wait it out. You can steal it too. You can corrupt it.

So I don’t see the reason for this to be a nerf.

You can think of it of just a change of gameplay for you.

Zmodd.5427:

And please, post it here, so we all know and try it ourselves too, who knows…

And have it shot down? haha. No Thanks. I have my fair share of those experiences but I still do great with my build.

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

And your second argument is irrelevant. The sword is a nerf yes, even if not all mesmers use sword.

My second argument is a direct response to your statement: "And Why is it not a nerf? Not all mesmers carry boon-strip in pvp, "

How can it not be relevant? It’s the only part of your post that directly addressed what I’m saying.

The reason why its not relevant, because the sword nerf was only for mesmers, the stability change will also affect thieves, necros, guardians because of that burn trait, so basically everything that has boon removal.

denis.9487:

So if I take all the downed traits can I still win? I am just saying during this play time we have hit a wall. We need fixes not people saying l2p. Why I hope hot breathes fresh air into our class.

Ask that yourself dude. Sometimes it very helpful to use some common sense in your arguments.

Me along with other people are saying, that shatter, CI, pu or whatever a great builds yes, but that does not mean this is the way to go 100% of the time.

And Traits does not reflect Viability:

Take this for example.

Jportell will always be better than me with shatter, but does that reflect the he is better than me with CI?

The moral of the story is, yes we need fixes or changes, I am not denying that. But even if we get those changes, Not all builds can work with everyone.

So in the meantime, why not create or test a build that works for you.

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zmodd.5427:

I’ve read it too, Lich Form came to mind… yeah… dark times are coming.

But lich form can be reflected, blinded, LoS, Dodged, and more importantly, Reflected.

And it could be boon stripped. This thread is describing a nerf.

Okay dude. I will be constructive.

That elite is 180 seconds cd. During the first 5 seconds boon strip, your team ganged up and downed the necro. What kind of elite is that? A wasted elite. It only serves right that Transformations should be powerful or maybe tide changing elites. I for one say its justified. Given the huge CD it has.

And I’m saying this without any bias to my main mesmer or other classes.

Most elites have some counter play that can waste them. Moa can be blocked, blinded, and dodged. Time warp can be nullified by cc. And these are the mesmer elites with the longer CDs.

You are forgetting that you can cast moa from stealth IIRC. And transformations are a different category. You cannot compare it with other elites. since you are replacing your entire weapon set with the elite.

Cast Moa and you still retain everything. Cast TW and you still have your shatters.

That really doesn’t change my statement that there are simple ways to make the person waste their long CD elites. I don’t see why necro elites must be the exception.

That is the point of this fix, to make your Elites worthwhile to use.

Again, this only affects certain elites. None of them mesmer elites, and it removes a way for mesmers to counter those elites. Are you claiming this is not a nerf for mesmers?

It is not a nerf for mesmers!

All i read nowadays when a change happens is : “Look a change! Its a Nerf!”

Okay, Thieves will be affected by this too. Fellow Necros are affected by this too.

And Why is it not a nerf? Not all mesmers carry boon-strip in pvp, So how do they handle lich form?

• Reflects is the best way.
• Run away and wait for the Transformation to end.
• LoS
• Blinds

What about mesmers who carry boon strip? Is it not a nerf to them?

Was the sword nerf not a nerf to mesmers because no all mesmers use sword?

So when you don’t have boonstrip, Do you stand around there and eat all the damage?

And your second argument is irrelevant. The sword is a nerf yes, even if not all mesmers use sword.

But the argument we have right now is the stability fix/ transformations/ etc, which encompasses a different state of the mesmer because this fix AFFECTS MULTIPLE CLASSES

Flufferz.8907:

StickerHappy.8052:

AND If we had more people actually testing the builds that some people post instead of just blatantly shooting it down without extensive testing and tweaking, We will have more people inspired to post their own ideas,

This. We don’t have the luxury of having a truly “set” pro-level build (I don’t count shatter since we have so few high level mesmers running it in clear conscience — see supcutie’s comments on what shatter-mesmer uniquely brings to the table). imo that means there are potentially better builds out there. I’m not saying that we are fine and don’t need lots of fixes, but we should at least be continuing to build and try to find them.

We can sit and whine all we want, but once we’ve let the devs know whats wrong there isn’t kitten you can do. So get up and make a better build out of what you have.

Yup, better than whining. +1 To you too Flufferz for Having an open mind.

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zmodd.5427:

I’ve read it too, Lich Form came to mind… yeah… dark times are coming.

But lich form can be reflected, blinded, LoS, Dodged, and more importantly, Reflected.

And it could be boon stripped. This thread is describing a nerf.

Okay dude. I will be constructive.

That elite is 180 seconds cd. During the first 5 seconds boon strip, your team ganged up and downed the necro. What kind of elite is that? A wasted elite. It only serves right that Transformations should be powerful or maybe tide changing elites. I for one say its justified. Given the huge CD it has.

And I’m saying this without any bias to my main mesmer or other classes.

Most elites have some counter play that can waste them. Moa can be blocked, blinded, and dodged. Time warp can be nullified by cc. And these are the mesmer elites with the longer CDs.

You are forgetting that you can cast moa from stealth IIRC. And transformations are a different category. You cannot compare it with other elites. since you are replacing your entire weapon set with the elite.

Cast Moa and you still retain everything. Cast TW and you still have your shatters.

That really doesn’t change my statement that there are simple ways to make the person waste their long CD elites. I don’t see why necro elites must be the exception.

That is the point of this fix, to make your Elites worthwhile to use.

Again, this only affects certain elites. None of them mesmer elites, and it removes a way for mesmers to counter those elites. Are you claiming this is not a nerf for mesmers?

It is not a nerf for mesmers!

All i read nowadays when a change happens is : “Look a change! Its a Nerf!”

Okay, Thieves will be affected by this too. Fellow Necros are affected by this too.

And Why is it not a nerf? Not all mesmers carry boon-strip in pvp, So how do they handle lich form?

• Reflects is the best way.
• Run away and wait for the Transformation to end.
• LoS
• Blinds

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

Unless your playing a different version of the game then maybe you are correct. But since we all have the same options then strong builds will occur regardless of skill. De select all traits and fight someone of equal skill. Willing to beat the traited Mesmer wins.

Regardless of skill? I humbly disagree. Duel Me.

Oh my God read please. Take 2 mesmers of equal skill. 1 de selects all traits the other is traited.

This goes for all classes, Its a useless argument. For sure the one with traits wins, /facepalm.

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zmodd.5427:

I’ve read it too, Lich Form came to mind… yeah… dark times are coming.

But lich form can be reflected, blinded, LoS, Dodged, and more importantly, Reflected.

And it could be boon stripped. This thread is describing a nerf.

Okay dude. I will be constructive.

That elite is 180 seconds cd. During the first 5 seconds boon strip, your team ganged up and downed the necro. What kind of elite is that? A wasted elite. It only serves right that Transformations should be powerful or maybe tide changing elites. I for one say its justified. Given the huge CD it has.

And I’m saying this without any bias to my main mesmer or other classes.

Most elites have some counter play that can waste them. Moa can be blocked, blinded, and dodged. Time warp can be nullified by cc. And these are the mesmer elites with the longer CDs.

You are forgetting that you can cast moa from stealth IIRC. And transformations are a different category. You cannot compare it with other elites. since you are replacing your entire weapon set with the elite.

Cast Moa and you still retain everything. Cast TW and you still have your shatters.

That really doesn’t change my statement that there are simple ways to make the person waste their long CD elites. I don’t see why necro elites must be the exception.

That is the point of this fix/change, to make your Elites worthwhile to use. And you do realize that 3 more classes have transformations right?

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

Unless your playing a different version of the game then maybe you are correct. But since we all have the same options then strong builds will occur regardless of skill. De select all traits and fight someone of equal skill. Willing to beat the traited Mesmer wins.

Regardless of skill? I humbly disagree. Care to elaborate?

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zmodd.5427:

I’ve read it too, Lich Form came to mind… yeah… dark times are coming.

But lich form can be reflected, blinded, LoS, Dodged, and more importantly, Reflected.

And it could be boon stripped. This thread is describing a nerf.

Okay dude. I will be constructive.

That elite is 180 seconds cd. During the first 5 seconds boon strip, your team ganged up and downed the necro. What kind of elite is that? A wasted elite. It only serves right that Transformations should be powerful or maybe tide changing elites. I for one say its justified. Given the huge CD it has.

And I’m saying this without any bias to my main mesmer or other classes.

Most elites have some counter play that can waste them. Moa can be blocked, blinded, and dodged. Time warp can be nullified by cc. And these are the mesmer elites with the longer CDs.

You are forgetting that you can cast moa from stealth IIRC. And transformations are a different category. You cannot compare it with other elites. since you are replacing your entire weapon set with the elite.

Cast Moa and you still retain everything. Cast TW and you still have your shatters.

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zmodd.5427:

I’ve read it too, Lich Form came to mind… yeah… dark times are coming.

But lich form can be reflected, blinded, LoS, Dodged, and more importantly, Reflected.

And it could be boon stripped. This thread is describing a nerf.

Okay dude. I will be constructive.

That elite is 180 seconds cd. During the first 5 seconds boon strip, your team ganged up and downed the necro. What kind of elite is that? A wasted elite. It only serves right that Transformations should be powerful or maybe tide changing elites. I for one say its justified. Given the huge CD it has.

And I’m saying this without any bias to my main mesmer or other classes.

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

DaShi.1368:

StickerHappy.8052:

Zmodd.5427:

I’ve read it too, Lich Form came to mind… yeah… dark times are coming.

But lich form can be reflected, blinded, LoS, Dodged, and more importantly, Reflected.

So we can use mimic…oh wait…we can use the new mimic…oh wait….

Feedback? Warden? Curtain? Masterful Reflection? Oh Wait.

Zmodd.5427:

I’ve read it too, Lich Form came to mind… yeah… dark times are coming.

But lich form can be reflected, blinded, LoS, Dodged, and more importantly, Reflected.

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Tell that to everyone. +1

skcamow.3527:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

With everything equal as it is now, assuming no balance changes across any other classes, mesmers need better sustain options to remain competitive at the top tier in glassy comps. Of course that then trickles down to all skill/MMR levels. I think Anet tried to accomplish this with the ether signet. I think a tweak there or something similar could change things quite a bit. Now I’ll go on my own little rant.

We pigeon hole ourselves way too much on “the most viable build to play”. I’m a firm believer that we do not lack build diversity. Aside from the horrid GM traits introduced, most of our traits are useful and provide a bevy of good builds to run with solo or with teams. It just takes some creativity and willingness to experiment with not only a new build idea, but new comps to play around those ideas.

The time simply has not been spent exploring all the options, and the time spent has to occur all over again whenever major balance is shifted. In no way do I discount the time top teams have spent trying to find the best builds and comps, but it’s nearly impossible with the low tournament player base we have to fully explore all possible builds to the level that’s needed in order to find viability.

Playing a build for a few hours or even a few days doesn’t count when giving a build a viable or not viable judgement. Play a build for a few weeks, master it. If it has promise, try to put a team comp together around it or augment it with others. THEN you have another few weeks to determine if that single build meshes with four other players.

It’s daunting to think about this for every possible mesmer build and any other class for that matter. If we had triple the amount of players in this game I guarantee we’d see some very interesting, none traditional, seemingly odd builds played at higher levels.

AND If we had more people actually testing the builds that some people post instead of just blatantly shooting it down without extensive testing and tweaking, We will have more people inspired to post their own ideas,

Elitist.8701:

Ravenmoon, you’re making quite the fool of yourself. You’re telling people to “L2P”, and then you go on to say that you struggle versus mesmers, that too on SD Thief, which counters Mesmer to an incredible extent. Then you go on to rant about some random stuff and spread misinformation. You’re essentially one of those people that think they’re good but you actually aren’t.

In terms of making thief less of a counter, I think consume plasma should just be removed and replaced by something crappy, won’t be much of a nerf to thief but it’ll help mesmers in that matchup a lot. That would be a good first step.

Realtalk Right here. Ravenmoon is one of those “I do not want to listen to your arguments, but I sense its an attack directed to my class, so L2P”

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

Well as a casual how about not having our main damage get sneezed on and die. How about more than golem rushing and veil. How about not having our clone generation tied to a master tier forcing us into a select build limiting our potential.
I want more traits skills that take us away from a dueling class. More aoe, let us step out from the roaming dps role.

Have you ever tried making a build without DE?

This is sad. I have given you examples and you ask if I have made a build without de?? Depending on game mode sure and yes. You are very hostile and seem to be under the impression it is a l2p along with level of play issue. Sadly it is not.

Hostile? L2P? I am starting to have a constructive talk with you now and you tell me I am hostile?

PS: I play a build in PvP without DE. And I am a devout PvP player.