Guild Wars 2

I think this topic comes up every 2 weeks and never really has to do with how stupid good elixir X is in power & hybrid builds and more to do with those who simply never really use it. Fine exactly as it is.

One of the top DPS builds in the game is Lightning hammer ele. We can get good sustained DPS well going Sw/F + GS (or Sw alone actually). What you complain about has to be concise. Mesmer has the top DPS build in the game in a perfect situation. What sets warrior apart in terms of PvE is just how tanky they can stay while dishing out that damage. That being said done right we have more up time then them in pure zerker gear in hard scenarios.

the main complaints about warrior vs guard in general are. Ranged weapons, sustained healing, and mobility. Some will go into group support but in reality guards are sill better. That being said if you want to complain about warrior take to their forum. Last thing we need is another thread describing how warrior excels vs another thread stating what is wrong with this class. And there is a difference.

Atherakhia.4086:

While the OP is probably a cleverly disguised request to nerf Warriors, their mobility is unbelievable for what the class is supposed to be.

I’d settle for any class balance though. When you can ask everyone to list the classes from most useful to least useful and the only difference in people’s list is if Engineers or Thieves should be ranked 6 or 7th ahead of Rangers it should be a clear sign something has gone wrong.

A request for a warrior nerf would be a request for a warrior nerf. I do think warrior mobility is out of hand but in general the idea that in WvW attrition still happens is too laughable to not let all classes have the option to be built for escape when roaming. Depending on the build the most mobile builds (straight line) come from warriors. Z access thief. Everyone else lags behind in one way another where Necromancer is the slowest.

IMHO mobility should allow that every class can attempt to run, that every class can built to chase, and that weapon skill mobility be balanced against utility slot mobility skills as there is a much bigger opportunity cost giving up a utility slot for mobility.

Like I said in my OP it isn’t just about the one or 2 classes at he top. the entire spectrum is too staggered.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

TheGuy.3568:

Besides walls/blocks and some boons (namely protection)

Walls, Blocks, and Stability is our main assets. How can you say besides that lol. If a guardian isn’t bringing those, then what the heck are they bringing? Might as well go warrior and bring more Vulnerability, and offensive buffs like 8 second fury.

I say again, if you aren’t bringing the 3 I mentioned above, a warrior offensive buffs and burst damage are superior. You bring a guard for Aegis blocking, Blocks(and blinds), and Stability when needed. This DOES not mean you should trait your guard to be a Trash support class. You can trait damage heavy while bringing these basic things with just 10 points in honor and 10 points in virtues. Then you can go hogwild with the other crap.

Look if you are going to quote me read me SMDH. One sentence in paragraph thus you sum up what someone has to say (Sigh).

On another note as I have said before you do not have to trait for things the CD reductions are not worth the DPS loss by going into virtues. You kitten your DPS by doing it for a reduced CD that wont make up for the loss. Another issue yet again. Used to be 20 now it 10 should be 0 until the line is brought up.

“This DOES not mean you should trait your guard to be a Trash support class. "

When you spec into virtues…that’s exactly what you do.

@Guanglai Kangyi

Not going to quote you put I will reply to each paragraph. Read carefully because I am going to take the time to not be a kitten about this and point out where you are wrong (because you are not wrong about everything) and why. Next time read the post you quote your response is obviously to the overall tone of what i posted rather than what I said. You quote me take the time to read what you quote.

First off min maxing your own DPS has to be in the context of how much DPS you are bringing and how much you are actually going to lose in relation to survivability. DPS should always be maximized no matter the class you play in response to your personal survivability (ie build as glassy as you can take before you end up going down often). For mesmer this isn’t much of an issue due to the way we can avoid damage. The issue though not every player is pro at not getting hit some (actually most) will need to build a bit tankier. How this plays into GS vs Sword is simple. In most encounters range has better up time. You are additionally assuming that if you run GS you are not doing damage VS if you run GS you are not doing as much damage a sword but you are still doing good damage. This plays into weapon in the the sense of direct damage optimized weapon (GS, sword in this case) vs condition damage optimized weapon (scepter) and stats (zerker stat player will do more damage vs non constructs).

As far as doing DPs as we both know in many cases like all “pets” illusions in general do not have a great up time. On paper you can max DPS with a mesmer. In reality you will get better uptime ie sustained out of other classes. Not even up for debate because there is no debate to be had. AI is stupid does not dodge and does not maximize DPS. While it is good to be a melee mesmer and you do well in many cases (not all). I see no issue in doing it. However, do not over state what it is more DPS in comparison to GS if the phantasm actually stay alive. Phantasmal swordman has this fantastic feature where it will stay off a target(right out of melee) attack and pop back out. Duelist to a degree does the same. That being said in a game where dodging is literally the best defense there is little the AI can do to stay alive other than that. In optimized situation the mesmer could be top DPS. In the real world the occasions are few and rare.

For the last year most players brought GS to everything. the got speed records in CoF and did all sorts of run without issue. Now someone figures out that Sword off hand does more damage. Does that mean that just about every stopped run for the past year got trolled. Lets be realistic no one cared. Things went fine and there were rarely any issues. I find it hilarious that now that we know it does more DPS that you are effectively gimping your party by not running a sword. No one cared before and barely care now. It s not even an issue.

On a personal note. The numerous runs I have been on in the past run form guardians using staff alone, hearing “I am a tank”, and players getting carried for running too glass I have come to the conclusion that if a run goes well and isn’t insanely longer than the norm then why bother? Players want to have fun use the weapons they like. There are no mega raids. This is not a job. If there is an issue with DPS gaps between weapons then that is Anet’s issue.

Last note not bringing a GS to some runs makes you a liability. Not every fight is melee friendly. Switching up weapons is the norm.

A few things.

Besides walls/blocks and some boons (namely protection) a guardian is not bringing anything particularly special to a fight. This isn’t an issue though because that is the truth for most classes anyways.

There is a misconception that guardians actually need to bring group condition management. It’s so far from the truth it is actually a bit annoying. Not even mentioning our normal light fields. Engineer mesmer and individual class skills and builds are enough to condi clear. Needing group condi clear outside FOTM is more the sign of a kittenty group than anythgn else. BTW Mantra of Resovle’s Power Cleanse is probably the best burst condi management in the game right now without traiting it or anything.

Comparing ourselves to warrior is a crap shoot. They beat us in the places that really count but we are not useless compared to them. If PvE were just he umber then yes just about every party for every run would be 4 warriors and maybe a mesmer running optimized builds. The problem is that the gain from each perfect player isn’t so insanely large that it must be this way.

PvE has not been balanced in who knows how long. The chances of them actually boosting every class to warrior’s level in PvE is just too unlikely.

Our situation is precarious. Anet has started shuffling their feet when it comes to balance updates afraid that the ripple from boosting one trait a little might cause a class to go OP. So likely well be stuck in the situation we are in now for the foreseeable future.

Keep posting and be constructive in those post and you may see change. The issue is with the number of kittens who want to be OP tossing out crazy ideas and the number of people fine being OP on other classes who will under mine your argument.

I played lyssa warrior for 5 months as my main. I quit when the class went OP same way i quit when I realized my first toon “thief” was OP and DD ele after that. I strive to play the most balanced class out there if I can. I would hope that other players feel the same. i want to win PvE, WvW, or Spvp based on the fact that i am a solid player and not some OP class imbalance. If we really want this class or any class to be balanced we have to look at the big picture and be concise and direct in our criticism.

Spiel over.

Can I ask a serious question? In Pve eeking out a little more damage does anybody really give a kitten? I mean this honestly if it was all about DPS and uptime the only classes that would be played ever are warrior and guardian. I don’t think running Sw/Sw or GS really factors in when people would rather have 2 warriors than 2 mesmers on their best day. That isn’t even a dig at warriors. It isn’t bs or something to defend. You might be the best mesmer in the world but no one really cares. Outside fotm. Due to the hundreds of runs people have done of basic content now all most players want is competent players not running condi or bunker.

So let me make this very very clear. It is a tempest in a tea pot. In the actual game no one and I mean no one gives a kitten. Play smart, don’t bunker, and no one will care what you run outside FOTM.

Even if you were to balance Spvp I think it has already left it’s mark of disdain upon the community at large. Early on so many build changes in PvE seemed primarily based on Spvp. Even after they deiced “split” skills they never reverted changes they made. Even after they buffed classes they skill see wide gaps between the communities idea of a balanced build PvE, and WvW. After a full year Spvp is still the smallest community in the game with the biggest say in balance changes. I am forced to wonder where we go for here?

A full year in Spvp has made nearly no inroads into becoming the big “E-Sport” complex it was meant to be. QoL changes such as exclusive armor skins from LS events not being either Spvp or PvE/WvW have still not been made. I will not list there is no point in it. How many threads each day have been going over the same topics for a full year now. I know out devs are busty making a quality game but this far in despite the steady pace it seems for each step taken forward 2 are taken backward and hesitation has now become the name of the game.

Letting the Meta sit as it is and then making big balance patches really has not been working. Build testing seems at a minimal while descriptions seem to be the major focus now. Honestly I understand this and appreciate the effort. Truth is though most players know what he traits do. Giving it a new description doesn’t change the fact that bad trait are bad traits (and there are many of them),

I am going to stop here. This can be added to the numerous rants, criticisms, and questions asked over the last year. I am not a player saying you should nerf X into oblivion, bring Y up, and ignore Z. I am saying that your vision may be clear among yourselves but a mystery to your player base. If you look at class forum after class forum the main question is, “Is someone looking at this class?”. I am forced to think that eyes set so firmly upon the horizon on a ship where the crew doesn’t know where the they are going could lead to “mutiny”. The last thing anybody wants is more people jumping ship.

Early on they said that mobility was so different across classes due to the idea that some class would have to fight wars of attrition ie you either win or lose. A year later the landscape has changed and there has been little to no balance in the out of combat and combat mobility area.

This isn’t just about the one or two classes dominating but the very fact that roaming builds or mobility builds are staggered so far cross class. There is no real reason for this. I would love it if Anet had their eye on this.

teg.1340:

warriors were the running jokes in Spvp for almost 8 months since newbies realized bull rush hundred blades was counterable and quickness got nerfed. They were always fine in WvW. guess what? nothing has changed about there hp, armor, mobility and damage since then but their sustained (buffed), invul states (buffed), Condition mitigation (buffed) and new stun meta has put them over the top.

people see a warrior running away extremely fast with GS + Bullrush, then see another warrior who stunlocks with GS + Mace/Shield, then see another warrior who seems to be unkillable due to clerics gear + banner + block + double endure pain, then see another warrior who killshots for 10k+ from range, then see another warrior who permanent clean conditions with longbow + …GS. People then go to forums and qq the wheck out of it how op warriors are because they can achieve none of this on any other build with any other class.

Guess what? Warriors are awesome just because they rely on near game breaking mechanics in mobility and sustained to overcome just about any build with no investment in fights due to insane mobility and/or sustained healing.

However, they cannot have it all at once, but builds like 0 20 30 0 20 have most of it all at once.

People have to realize there’s no builds really as good as a basic warrior build.

Fixed it for you.

wildfang.9670:

TheGuy.3568:

What we have here is a class that was fine in WvW, great in PvE, and sucked in Spvp buffed to the point of being OP. Players who quit the class returned finally said it is balanced and forum wars and QQ began.

What we have now is a class that almost out classes every other class in every aspect of the game. That being said it seems Anet has realized the issue and is willing to re-balance the classes slowly. Only time will tell if things get any better.

question causei think I missed something somewhere maybe it’s because I do genuinely think wars are balanced but that aside when did anet say they were going to nerf anything.

I mean I this past note we got 25% heal for shouts and 10% better scale for shout heal wars. yeah I guess combustion shot was kinda nerfed but lets be honest 180 radius for a lvl 1 burst skill is not that bad.

Here

JonathanSharp.7094:

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Jonathan, don’t you think Warriors are just a little over the top at the moment? Such as the amount of sustain available even when playing glassy? The mobility/escapes from the gap closers in sword/GS where most classes require targeting for those skills to work? How short the cooldown is on some of the cc? Zerker stance stopping all condi’s instead of negative duration (isn’t this a bug, if so why isn’t it fixed?)

I know you guys like to look at the metrics and let things settle… but seriously, it’s been months… Surely you guys are aware of how much this has also affected wvw with increased stats…

Thanks for the thoughts!

Yes, Warrior is pretty beefy right now, and can dish out strong aoe CC with some specs. We’ll have to watch to see if any counters crop up to deal with it in the next few weeks. I do think the build is strong, and we’re watching it very closely.

If you’ll recall, Berserk’s stance was brought in at a 6s duration (and very few people ran it), and then went to an 8s duration. This was enough to get people to start trying to make a build around it, and this lead to the current sustain/cc Warrior that’s so powerful right now.

That duration may need to come down, now that their traits align and give them VERY strong sustain due to multiple sources or regen. It’s working as it’s intended right now, but the duration is longer than it was previously.

TL:DR – We’re watching Warriors very closely right now and waiting to see how the meta adjusts.

And I never said nerf I said rebalance.

Edit:

The actual quote I was looking for

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to jump in and say thanks for keeping things constructive!

The idea right now is to see how the current changes impact the meta, and then do another set of balance in an upcoming patch.

The trait facts were a lot of work, but the clarity they give you guys is VERY good for you. So we wanted to see if that would shake up trait builds at all in order to see how you guys adjusted. Once THAT settles, we want to make balance changes based off the meta at that time. We didn’t want to change all the trait facts and also add in a lot of balance changes on top of it.

We still did a lot of balance stuff, but we were careful not to go overboard with this patch. Just like we learned w/ the Warrior a few updates back, sometimes the meta can undergo drastic changes even if we do VERY little to impact the balance.

We’re planning on doing another round of updates to traits for every class (either changing #‘s, shifting tiers around to make more builds viable, or doing trait reworks), and we also have our eye on a few “apex” builds. But, again we don’t want to shave those too much.

Thanks again for the thoughts and feedback!

Chap + the balance tam

guanlongwucaii.3162:

wanting to buy party condition removal and consecrations traiting

PoV is not always better than virtues because many times in organised groups (and sometimes even pugs) you are having 1-2 consecrations/spirit shield on your bar, which makes it far less worth it to take PoV. also, with purging flames buff, virtues line is better than PoV for condi cleansing now.

stat conversion foods are suboptimal except in AC.

also, symbol of persistence is better for GS DPS (definitely if you’re doing a proper rotation with S/F as well) than 2h mastery, which is more of a utility trait for the control skills on hammer.

Well the truth is is you could run with more condi cleanse in virtue but as I said overkill support for less is DPS is a waist.

Purging flames is good very good. At the same time the big picture is lost when you compare it to PoV like that. First off if you are running shouts it means you are going to give boons to the party. On top of that you have the conversion. Further more it is better in fights where you only need to clear one or 2 conditions. Light field focus are helping in that area as are other parts of other builds.

About the lines not going to rehash old post but if you read above I can tell you clearly bang for your buck virtues is not better than honor not even by a long shot. What you give up to go virtues is a kitten load of offense for marginally better condi management. It simply is not worth it.

Writ of persistence symbols last 2 seconds longer. Duration on sword symbol is 4 seconds. Reduced CD is 20% to each skill on the bar. Do I want a symbol to last 4 seconds longer or a CD reduction on all my DPS moves including my blind for vulnerability stacks. The loss in DPS between the 2 in a proper rotation is going to be with the symbol trait. On another not it is not a field I like to just sit there. Light field have tendency to get in the way in party. So personally I use to for the extra condi and DPS but I don’t want it up all the time just to provide retaliation. The increased DPs is nonexistent is 2 second duration increase 4 second CD decrease will end up in a net gain to DPS on the cool down reduction.

You got it backwards btw about hammer you want the symbol up time.

This keeps coming up but Virtues is a very lackluster line. The support you get is not good enough to make up for the loss in DPS and stats. Consecration do not have to be traited to be effective. Much like Avenger it is fine on its own. What you end up losing chasing after that line is just ridiculous.

There is another issue where guardians feel like they are the only class with any sort of condi management. Let me inform you we are not (read the patch notes). Further more if there are 2 and each is managing condi then there is no need for the over kill on condition management.

Tbh there is barely any need for traiting for condi management in the first place. Light fields, focus, smart dodging, and just running purging flames un traited should be more than enough.

akamon.2769:

if you’re running around in open world, yay. the extra mobility with JI paired with GS and s/f is always a nic change of pace.

if you’re doing group content, especially dungeons, than meditations are the last thing on your mind.

and personal side track – testing it a bit, the short duration of the fury you get is not that enticing to me. meditations you’ll use to cleanse conditions, to heal mainly, and it’s hard to guarantee you’ll ahv eburst skills up ready for that small window. apart from JI, which many open with, which can be nice.

Ahh he original topic. Well I will put it like this. It is good but too glassy for me in dungeons. The fury IMHO is just enough to get your burst off (as for sword most of the DPS is coming for auto attack as it is). That being said the duration is just too lack luster. And your right i found myself using my meditations to heal too often (though with the extra toughness and dodging I though it would not be an issue but it was).

The dps though is no good but it is easy to over do it. the support from honor isn’t worth giving up and it makes up for some of the dps loss with elusive power.

coglin.1867:

Kontrolle.3514:

Have you guys even compared the new radius to the traited radius?

Plz go ahead and test it, 180 radius vs 240. Plz test it carefully and provide feedback of your results. My tests results helped me by my dicision to drop that trait to gain something less useless. Sad thing that this is probably the best buff we got since ~3 patches.

This is what a buffs looks like

•Vigorous Shouts: Increased the base healing by 25%. Increased the scaling with healing power stat from 80% to 90%.
•Staggering Blow: This skill can now be used while moving. Reduced the cast time to 0.5 seconds.

With the trait, now you can be running with swiftness while using elixir infused bombs, and actually receive the heal. There have been hundred of post requesting this for a very long time. So, if the devs give a buff that hundreds of post over many many threads. It seems extremely petty to me, to see a post complaining about a buff like this. If you have a legitimate complaint about something that didn’t get fixed, then feel free to complain. But this benefited many players, and was well requested.

^
For a long time a fix (not even going to call it a buff) has been begged for. I think many are just glad to see it. Bombs have always been a threat PvP wise to melee opponents. However in many cases it was just easy to walk out of the blast radius. Now there is more threat to the sitting bombs because even with dodges you might not be able to walk outside the aoe range as was done before.

Good but not great. IMHO it is the class i feel has the most potential going forward but with turrets still being useless and getting random buffs and nerfs every patch its hard to get a feel where the class will end up. This could be said of any class but I feel it is a more prevalent issue here.

Among the current 6 80s I have engineer is the one I invested the most in (command tag, ascended everything that can be ascended is, permanent tools, etc.). Not bragging or anything like that. It is one of my youngest toons. I feel very strongly that the potential and diversity of this class warrants investing in it. While it may be great some days and lack luster the next it is never really boring.

jportell.2197:

Except guard has been my main since Anet gutted mesmers…. I am just pointing out that overall this class is in a great spot and every other class should be balanced around (ie brought up to or down to this level). I was pointing out that one argument in the We need “X” conversation was a little exaggerated calm urself.

First post by you you get something simple about he game in general wrong and I point out your flaw. Second post you try to back pedal and make it about OOC movement. Third post =

jportell.2197:

Lol go level a mesmer and then come back and tell me how guards are SOOOO SLOW. I’m sorry I know guards need some mobility love. But I think there is some exaggeration here

Fourth is an examination (and a bad one at that) of mesmer movement/mobility options.

If it looks like a troll, acts like a troll, sounds like a troll, likely it is a…. troll

As I said before if you want to discuss the merits of mesmer movement/mobility tools there is a link in a previous post to the appropriate forum. The original intent of this thread was to generate good suggestions for guardian class improvement. I contributed my ideas in my first post. So far you have called posters whiners and not contributed a single post on the topic of the thread. For someone who supposedly mains a guardian you have a lot of criticism for your community. Perhaps your efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

Right now guardian could use help in some areas. If you feel that mesmer could use similar help then by all means start a thread and hope someone such as yourself does not take the time to post.

Btw for a long time now the class all classes are balanced against (if balanced at all) is warrior. Much of what has been asked for including passive healing improvements, more HP, more mobility options, better ranged weapon skills, etc. are directly due to this fact.

jportell.2197:

So please stop telling me mesmer is better off than guard when Ot comes to OOC movement.

In short mesmers are most def the slowest class in game still. And if u want to compare bases only compare a guard with no traits and just weapons/soils at low levels to a mesmer…. And tell me who has the worst mobility

First off you could just use rune of traveler like I said before. Second, I never brought up mesmers. You did in a feeble attempt to prove something. Too bad I have a fully leveled one and merely pointed out how I get my swiftness/movement speed (there are other methods).

As for that second part no one here cares. We are talking about guardian. Stop being a troll and if you have an issue with mesmer head to that forum. You are actively trying to derail this thread. Stop being an kitten and move on.

jportell.2197:

Lol go level a mesmer and then come back and tell me how guards are SOOOO SLOW. I’m sorry I know guards need some mobility love. But I think there is some exaggeration here

Focus, runes of Air, and Mirror for swiftness up time. Use blink to get around jump in water in WvW (I miss the lake) to out run everything. BTW despite there being no ranger there ( deleted him in frustration) the only class I have not leveled to 80 is necromancer.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

TheGuy.3568:

group support much like DPS much maximized but not above DPS unless you are trying to get carried. s.

If you think that build is a “get carried type build” then I really am done talking about this subject.

Didn’t say that. So do not put word in my mouth. I just pointed out an essential fact to running anything which is DPS should be maximized. If that hurt your feelings in some way or offended you that is your issue and not mine. Not like what I said isn’t true. It is commonly know that too many guardians run too much support. I did ask in the OP how much support is actually necessary? The point of this topic is to discuss that too. It might offend some as their builds get picked apart if they suggest them but so are the ones I am running.

Oxxy.7068:

On the burst combo:
If your group doesn’t already provides fury (either by some ele running 30/0/0/0/0, ranger warhorn or warrior spamming FGJ/dropping war banner) it is likely that any fight will take a fair amount of time, and since the fury duration is pretty low while most meditations cooldowns are somewhat high (aside from smite condition), you’d be wasting trait points since they could’ve been better spent somewhere else (5 group-wide static might stacks from empowering might is a better DPS boost to your group than traiting meditations).
Ah, the general mindset for traiting into group boons is something like this: If your class can’t trait into group-wide, let’s say, fury (only eles can do that if i’m not mistaken) you shouldn’t waste points trying to get it for yourself and yourself only.
As for my virtues points… i wanted the bonus damage per boon, and i had nothing better to trait with my current set up. Plus, if i really need the extra condition removal i can put absolute resolution on anytime i want.

Edit – Cats, what do you run on honor? Aria?

Well…..about empowering might. 5 seconds 1 stacks each with lucky hits your looking at maintaining without dodging or moving like 304 stacks. 35 power and condi damage each that’s like 140 power and condi damage (which is actually pretty good). thier issue is though with fire fields and the numerous better and longer might stacks out there is it a major contributing factor? Honestly not really but I still use it some times in 10 30 0 30 0. The reduced CD on my GS spin and blind is going to boost DPS more than that is.

Damage per boon is at 1% Elusive power 10% can be maintained the entire fight by simply playing well and using your dodges. If you use any sort of food that does stat conversion for power or precision they use Toughness and Vitality. Virtues brings nothing to that either. PoV still has better condi management overall due CDs and better DPS built into the line.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

TheGuy.3568:

Edit:
@Cat Has Ducks Not true. Actually in almost all dungeon builds you should be trying to maximize DPS while retaining group support if needed. Theoretically any dungeon like COF I would run that build just for the increased damage which is noticeable due to the 30 crit damage you get out of it (see above). If you are going to put points in Virtue and Honor then you have to put them there realizing the opportunity cost in reference to your DPS. The reason you have to put them there has to be so good you are willing to kitten your DPS in effect (something as i said I wonder is really worth it in a competent group with 1 free utility spot for support skills). Remember you can trade out utilities up to 2 slots because smite conditions is on a low CD.

10/30/0/10/20 is great dps. Running Sword Focus/GS I get RHS which give 15% crit chance, 10% damage on enemies with conditions, 10% damage vs burning enemies, 5% extra damage with swords, apply vulnerability with blinds, and all while still bringing what makes a Guardian special. Nothing important is gained in Valor in my eyes. Extra crit damage is generally taken care of with food and Banner of Dis. If you are going into valor for just the crit damage modifier alone, then that is a poor choice IMO.

Ok DPS but far from great. See edit 2 in my last post for why Virtue is a no no in my builds. 10 30 0 30 0 is much better DPS in a support build. All the things you highlight run into a DPS build no matter hoe you spec the lower half. Crit damage (unlike condtion duration) is un capped. So it is never ever a negative. Whatever the possible warrior bring you are just adding to it at 30% which is sizable.

group support much like DPS much maximized but not above DPS unless you are trying to get carried. Bringing more support than needed at the cost of DPS is kind of like running…..not running zerker gear in PvE. Not that you have to run zerker I am not one of those guys.

@Aza Technically I will do group blinds no mattr the build I run because I like blind Exposure too much in PvE. MI isn’t going to be that useful in a zerk build but kitten you never know. I do not feel limited but there are some clear trade offs in terms of boon support.

@Oxxy that would be incorrect burst wise it does factor. If you are GS/Sword you can pulls off your burst combo that quick. WRR with judges. Additionally the 30% crit damage factors (quite a bit actually due to traits having relatively cheap crit damage investment in stat optimization). The fury itself as far as traiting it for the group there is no good way to do it. Even if you did it would be pointless because it is so short it would really only help in any real way your burst and your burst alone. If you are running purging flames why go more than 10 points into virtues?

Edit:
@Cat Has Ducks Not true. Actually in almost all dungeon builds you should be trying to maximize DPS while retaining group support if needed. Theoretically any dungeon like COF I would run that build just for the increased damage which is noticeable due to the 30 crit damage you get out of it (see above). If you are going to put points in Virtue and Honor then you have to put them there realizing the opportunity cost in reference to your DPS. The reason you have to put them there has to be so good you are willing to kitten your DPS in effect (something as i said I wonder is really worth it in a competent group with 1 free utility spot for support skills). Remember you can trade out utilities up to 2 slots because smite conditions is on a low CD.

Edit 2:
More like question actually. Why go down virtues at all? Going into Honor makes sense to me since you can run a shout build around it but mostly because elusive power sits right there to make up for some of the DPS loss. Playing the smart dodger you can have another 10% damage increase all the time. Virtues on the other hand with the exception of AR (actually including AR) seems extremely wasteful stat and utility wise. There is very little there beside CD reductions on Consecrations that seems worth specing into (and even that is heaviliy ymmv).

Yea or Nay?

The way I see it running meditations is selfish to a degree. You aren’t bringing the group utility of PoV or AR. The fury can feel like over kill when running it with Right-Hand Strength and the DPS boost nigh unnoticeable due to fury’s short duration.

On the other hand you could boost your burst and how much are PoV and AR needed now anyways. Now class in PvE should have heavy issues with condis now and you can always substitute CoP for WoR and SYG when needed.

Right now I am running 10 25 30 5 0. So far I find it good on burst but not insanely better than 10 30 0 30 0. Personally I could go either way.

Edit:

Forgot to note that if you use a GS you can get periodic group cleansing (to a degree) done with you Whirling Wrath + Symbol of Wrath. Ray of Judgement plays into this too but is too random.

jportell.2197:

Except movement speed is stacked at 33% so perma swiftness is fine if you guys are referring to OOC movement guard is fine really. If you’re referring to in combat mobility they are lacking but not OOC movement not at all.

OOC mobility has the same rules. Teleports and Leaps play into it all. It has little ot do with speed and Traveler runes, speed signets, etc. help make up for gaps there. It has to do with movement skills and movement skills alone.

Like said above. Spvp S/D Soldiers. WvW P/D dire or just good play.

jportell.2197:

Why are so many people griping about movement? My first 80 was a mesmer literally the slowest of the slow when it comes to swiftenss up time so maybe I’m just used to it. But I had 100% swiftness uptime between retreat, SYS and staff for leveling…. And if I wanted more utility slots I would just swap out SYS for JI… I mean really base movement guard is fine. In combat mobility may be lacking but not movement speed in general.

You have played this game for how long now? How in the hell do you not realize movement barely has kitten to do with swiftness. An example of what people are referring to here. In the future do not post and equate movement with swiftness only people who do that are new players now.

You have been playing longer than I have. SMH

My list should be short and to the point.

1. We need more CC to keep a target in the fight.
2. We need more mobility the and the “You can bunker”, reason is pointless now.
3. We need a better ranged option than what we have now.
4. We need access to a better condition build that just burning.
5. We need more HP or better passive healing at base.
6. *We need a dev (even if it is lip service) to come here and at the very least say, “We are looking into it.” Honestly it could be BS but it is nice to hear.
7. We need less people tossing out crazy OP ideas. Be logical and constructive. We are unlikely to see changes based on our ideas but we can attempt to remind the devs people still want to play this class.

What we have here is a class that was fine in WvW, great in PvE, and sucked in Spvp buffed to the point of being OP. Players who quit the class returned finally said it is balanced and forum wars and QQ began.

What we have now is a class that almost out classes every other class in every aspect of the game. That being said it seems Anet has realized the issue and is willing to re-balance the classes slowly. Only time will tell if things get any better.

The best “tanking” skill in the game is this. Want to use it more? Use this and this

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

People are too wound up after this patch. If you guys want some good comedic relief, go read ranger posts lol.

I never really understand responses like this. What do you want us to compare kitten list and feel better. Still got kitten at the end of day. Play both classes and you got a double serving.

We should complain. It is not a bad thing to let the devs know what we want vs the whole, “I am going to quit!” thing. We let them know on warrior and it might have taken months but they got around to making things better….then OP. Then player rushed in who quit the class and told vets who said things were too strong that they were wrong. And I know that once guardian gets it’s buff the same will happen.Even at the risk of cheese dominating the landscape we must continue to inform the devs of what we do not like. It is for the good of the game.

Ryan.8367:

AgentChaos.4932:

you forgot pov needs to remove 2 condis again

It was always meant to only remove 1… It was a fix… Alot of classes got fixes , mesmer’s duelist got fixed , sigil of para was fixed as well… Please do not tell me you didn’t see this coming? It has been in the guardian suggestions for fixes for like 4 months.

A 30 point trait should not remove one condition on a class that is this effing susceptible to conditions. Bug or not. Read it as a suggestion instead then argue against it. SMH

It doesn’t effect the tool belt. That is all there is to it. Working as intended.

Relentliss.2170:

AgentChaos.4932:

^yes that effect is lost. and yes guardians got nerfed hard and people still saying ‘its perfectly fine’

Agreed

Its not fine.

Ohh no it’s not fine. We should continue to complain. I am not saying this in a bad or sarcastic way. The only way the devs are going to know what is wrong is if we are vocal about it and constructive. We need QoL buffs especially in WvW. A great deal of the reasoning behind why we do not have thing (no mobility because you bunker so well) are laughable now. Things need to change too many buff and fixes are heavy nerfs in disguise.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I never realized how bad the old fire bomb was until I tried the new one…

Honestly I think it’s gonna be a bit of a game changer for engi. It’s even better than what I figured it’d be.

You are right but that auto attack. I do not have to be up the mobs behind just to get it to hit.

Anyone else loving the new range?

Lactose intolerance?

Oxxy.7068:

I’ve seen quite a few threads about sPvP on the thief section, but i just really follow the dungeon, guardian and sPvP forums… actually i just took a quick look on the other sections and yeah, you’re right there is alot more WvW than sPvP related stuff.
Anyhow what kind of shinies are you talking about? Rewards, game modes, something ladder related?
Also, while i do know that sPvP has severe flaws, there is alot more stuff bugging me out on WvW, but then again that may be just personal preference.

Well….(sigh not at you but the situation). It breaks down something like this. Early in in Anet’s adamant decision to make the game near linear all the way through many Pve balance choices were made based on Spvp balance only. This lead to quite a bbit of resentment from the PvE and WvW community. Note: the big monthly or bi monthly state of the gmae only involves hte Spvp community as representatives (A real shame if you ask me).

Because the game is simply point holding early on and today there are complaints about how limited the game is. Anet sticking to their E-Sport manifesto refused to put more popular game types (Death match, 1 v 1, capture the flag, etc.) into the game. Opting instead to add new maps (both of which had/have issues). This decision has not gone over well.

Early on a new players in Spvp would have a kitten build to start with and be tossed into a big map. Often classes like mesmer, warrior, and thief would utterly dominate them making short work of the new player. this lead to much griping and made Spvp a big turn off for many.

In Anet’s decision to make Spvp a separate environment from PvE they decided that no money (outside early paid tourney chest) or experience would be shared between the worlds. This means that essentially Spvp is an entitety unto itself in this game. It stands on it’s own merits and thus has a small pop. this leads to the issue that spvp doesn’t really contribute to your advancement in general (armor, weapons, etc before AP rewards of course and even then) outside your finisher (more on this after). So there is no real connect between the hours you put in to Spvp and the hours you put into dungeons and WvW.

Recently PvE players have started farming for ranks making the effort put into getting ranks worthless. What used to be a mark of honor (through your finisher or title) is now meaningless as players can simply farm something that is in part meant to be skill based.

Shinies are loot. Spvp provides no loot you can use outside of it (dyes and bags but not armor, jewelry or weapons). When you could get laurels from both monthlies players would jump into Spvp just to get them (can’t anymore). The Spvp community begged Anet to incentivize Spvp for the casual community so they would have more bodies but Anet has stuck firm to their policy.

Ohh I could actually keep going but there’s no point. The kitten list for Spvp probably require 3 rolls or more of Charmin.

Buran.3796:

Outside 1 vs 1 is a very poor weapon, and even then the Warrior’s sword is much better tool for duels and roaming.

Not disagreeing with your full list of complaints. However, Sword is a good roaming weapon. No not better than warrior’s sword but yes a good roaming weapon.

Oxxy.7068:

Is it only me or most of the guardian community seems to prefer WvW instead of sPvP?
Not a trick question, just a random thought.

Well that is most of The Community not just guards. Reasons are numerous and well noted. Suffice to say there won’t be much of a shift there unless big shinies are given to Spvp.

Deathmond.7328:

Our complication that we still have useless weapons(sword and shield)and utility skills(spirit weapons and signets) in WvWvW. And this stupid feel that if you want to be a team player and good player in your static\guild etc. you need to play with GS\STaff|Hammer…maybe mace+focus and use shouts+one consecration or meditation for solo or roaming. So we play in this builds one year ago…and Anet says to us “go on…love this gameplay and forgot about your profession others skills and weapons”
…
So…Yeah…I am angry!

Sword…..useless….lol

You do realize that we used to be able to way point while combat was still going on. Get off your high horses. In most fights if we go down we hopefully get a rez from a team mate and move on. If people start dropping like flies there is very little you can do to get rez off. If you feel there needs to be more risk reward to this system then make the content drop better loot. You guys are suggesting making something not meant to be terribly difficult more difficult for what reason? If you are having issues getting a thrill go do some high level fractals but leave the general dungeons alone.

This care bare vs elitist bullkitten is tired now. So what you can rez in combat takes too long in the first place for anyone to really give 2 kittens. Why not make threads about the numerous bugs that still exist cross class or PvE balance. This has to be one of the lest essential things to complain about.

Ohh and do not worry kittenting on some casuals (most regular dungeons do not even have this issue), and new players at least in this way is not something of a priority.

Well the deal is this. Support stats like healing power just do not scale well enough for PvE. Most damage avoidance comes from blocking, clearing condi, and dodging. The only bad zerker is one who spends the fight down. If you feel comfortable in zerker gear then use it. In general players should be maximizing their DPS while figuring out how squishy they can really handle being. Smooth runs without someone keep track of time and not full of tanks (ie very slow run) do not usually care about how, “leet your deeps” are and are more about if you are getting carried or not.

For example I did TA F/U the other day and didn’t realize I had my WvW jewelry on (magi). I felt my DPS was a little low but my party just went about the run fine. Did it again today and barely noticed a difference in survivability near full zerk (my neck is knights rest zerker).

My point is in most cases all other players care about is that you do the content and get it done smoothly. I will say this. getting your DPS up makes PvE fights shorter with less room for screw ups. You do not have to be full anything but be mindful of your DPS. No player in their right mind is going to kitten about getting a run done faster.

Question OP. What run were you doing when people said this?

What do you mean? Do I feel cheated that a class that has an innate support role has support skills? No not at all.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Warriors are getting nerfs tomorrow if the leaked patch notes are to be believed. Pretty severe ones too. Meanwhile guardians get straight buffs and people complain? Lol.

Sigh….likely because the proposed nerfs will not be enough to even a anything out. Just because you see a nerf doesn’t mean things are getting balanced. It isn’t a +1 -1 column. The nerfs actually have to have a major impact. If not it does not mean a thing. The short sighted view of many players is that simply receiving a nerf means things are “OK”. With that same logikittentle buffs are often perceived the same as nerfs. This is the stupidity of many players. Instead of considering the quality of each buff and each nerf they simply look at the quantity.

the other issue is that some things are OP but because certain players only evaluate a win or a loss.They use the logic that they should always win. Thus, we see “whine” threads, and “If you can’t beat X you suck” threads that do not have kitten to do with balance. ATM warrior for example has the best access to debilitating cc (ie stuns, knockdowns, knockbacks, etc) and the best consistent and lasting access to stability in the game. They can run this build without making major sacrifices to condition management, burst DPS, mobility and physical mitigation. Nerf anyone of those things and some players will scream bloody murder that it is not fair. In their eyes as long as another class got any buff in the same patch. Even if it is to an unused line or skill where the buff wont even make it valuable enough to use.

That is the reality of the situation. So no matter the buff we get tomorrow unless they are insanely good I doubt you will see many change in the meta.

Edit:

@coglin People who threaten to beat people over the internet……you know what forget it. It is just a kittening game and this is just the forums.

Axxo.7430:

Does our Kit scales with Ascended weapons?

Damage range? No they do not. Pure stats? Yes they do. Unless you were running givers you are effectively under gearing the toon if you have access to an ascended weapon but refuse to craft one. That being said. It isn’t that big a deal to have one or not from a stat perspective.

I crafted a Wupwup rifle for my hybrid HGH build and I have a teq ascended weapon box which I will likely get the pistol out of. Cost wise it made the most sense as it requires the least cash to get weapons for my engineer additionally it is also my most geared toon.

VomitSpit.6843:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

I never understand the stupid kitten people post. You want to have discussion then have it. Whatever this ‘fidel" bullkitten is it doesn’t matter. End of the day people run cheese builds ss dd complaining about one is pointless since there are so many. Oh and a 20 man hammer train inst good play its normal play that is hard to counter. There is not a super good player who shows the masses how it is done. The best players run cheese builds and cheese set ups. Not that big a deal. Anet isn’t changing things in WvW.

There will always be counters to every build. Some players just cant take their loss and move on.

Factually no there isn’t. Thief DP does not have a hard counter. Not a real one if the thief is competent. In WvW mobility and aversion are the name of the game. Thief mobility is high enough out run most but this isn’t the issue. Unless stealth has some hard counter like something that pops you out of it forcibly there really isn’t a counter to it.

Now do not lose your mind over this because in the zerg v zerg environment we live is thief is one of the most useless classes out there outside of scouting. This isn’t up for debate there are too many classes better suited for big fights. So the real complaint is about roaming. I personally feel D/P gets too much but at the same time thief is forced into roaming and small group play to be truly effective. Unless Anet plans to change this no matter how OP thief my seem it’s utility is overall very limited.

i will wait for the obligatory I beat a DP thief roaming so it can be done counter. I respond in advance that thief wasn’t very good then.

I will wait for the obligatory SB cluster bomb is good in a big fight or dagger storm is good counter. I will say hammer is more useful as are engineers, necromancers, eles, and mesmers. Even rangers have better range by far.

Edit

Fidel is just that. Think about. If I used Fiddle instead then it would all make sense.

Meh to the rest. So many crying threads in the WvW section I hardly read it. Feel lucky and see my Fidel, or my Fiddle.

Let me be clear. I do not care. Our conversation is already over.

Here is the deal. Warriors likely will not see big nerfs in WvW or PvE. Anet steadily shuffled their feet for warrior buffs and will shuffle their feet on warrior nerfs. Other classes in WvW will have to be slower than warrior and accept the fact they can not be caught (much like thieves but different). There isn’t much that will be done. In Anet’s eyes from what they have said they like to sit with changes for a while until they feel good and ready to take a serious look at balance again.

WvW is not a balance priority (much like PvE). They tossed their chips into the Spvp pot and are sticking with it. I suspect that as OP as warrior is they will not see any significant changes anytime soon. Strategy might be to get everyone else up to warrior level but this will be nigh impossible without pushing each and every spec to some ridiculous territory. QoL changes like reducing and removing some of warriors mobility, stability, and regen aren’t far fetched but aren’t really all that likely to happen anytime soon. My suggestion is accept the situation as it is or give up on Wv3. Complaining has gotten very little done recently.

Spazzoni.1703:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

I never understand the stupid kitten people post. You want to have discussion then have it. Whatever this ‘fidel" bullkitten is it doesn’t matter. End of the day people run cheese builds ss dd complaining about one is pointless since there are so many. Oh and a 20 man hammer train inst good play its normal play that is hard to counter. There is not a super good player who shows the masses how it is done. The best players run cheese builds and cheese set ups. Not that big a deal. Anet isn’t changing things in WvW.

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

MrFluffy.9307:

psibrid.1920:

i thought engi’s where medium range? What makes them effective at long?

grenade kit build. 1500 range auto attack lol

Flight time makes this pointless in roaming at that range and OK in zerg.

Interesting points. The way I see it toning down mobility should be a priority given the nerfs to snare coming up. I do not expect this to happen but many of the reasons class X should not be fast are long gone in the zerg v zerg environment.

OP rune set that isn’t just OP on this class but just about every class gets nerfed. It really is not a big deal. They will likely tone it down but not break it. Not worth complaining about or singing over. It is what it is and was expected from the first time players used them.