Guild Wars 2

matthen.5024:

One idea: have the IP trait include an extra reduction in shatter recharge (similar to “Slight of Hand” for thieves). Small adjustments could allow for more shatters per unit time, and therfore more DPS. This would not increase the type of burst damage that can insta-kill someone.

Just a thought.

It would bring Mind Wrack down to 7.5 seconds and would likely be the fix needed. That being said getting Anet to do it will be much tougher. PU in PvP is insanely strong so even a change like this won’t do much for the PvP pop in terms of trade off. For the PvE pop it would be a true resurgence.

I really like that idea in terms of the investment into illusions but, the chances of getting done and convincing the devs (if that is possible) seems slim. After the 10th and the meta changes (depending on where everyone ends up) getting another buff for this class might be nearly impossible in the short term.

RNG mystic forge or otherwise should have never been part of it. End of story. Additionally in reality it is just a skin. You are not stat locked so in the long run your effectiveness is the same.

Sigh… The number one build for running the field is basically complaining about mobility. Basically complaining about thief mobility outside WvW in SPvP. I actually find this funny.

In your world where ports are nerfed burst guardian (Who already have issue sticking to targets) would find themselves facing your build (which already has stupid mobility) would find themselves further behind you as they try to JI and realize they are stuck where they are. The really sad kitten is you get soft CC on top of it with your build. Let me make this clear this is a very very bad complaint. In a game where most classes are just trying to stay on point most mobility for for getting from place to place. being among the classes the has the insane ability to pull out of combat heal and and return unscathed I find the complaint beyond funny.

Asking for nerfs (you basically ask with the question itself) for a mechanics so your ultra mobile build (which would probably be better condi based) can catch just 2 classes in a game mode based on conquest. SMH

Let me tell you something your build isn’t supposed t work against everyone. You already have enough mobility on that class to pressure. With the thief nerfs incoming it is hard to take this seriously.

Proven.2854:

I’m probably missing something, but what’s going to cause PU Mesmer’s to be OP after next patch when they have the same stealth problems in conquest mode as thieves do?

No no no. I said might and that was thinking big picture where the pop of warrior Fotm players and angry thieves are likely to move. Instead of thinking," Well that’s not inherently OP" think about how the pop moves with the slightest sign of trouble. With vigor nerfs for engineer and some (I consider small) nerfs to necro plus the Hammer nerf there is good chance that mesmer (which will be seeing considerable buffs but not entirely to that build) will likely become the flocked to class for players receiving nerfs.

It would not be the first time or the second or the third as it happens each balance patch. With the increase volume of PU mesmers comes the increasing likelihood stacking those mechanics will lead to over saturation of the class. If that happens then players are more likely to notice how good it is (which they know but have other builds they are playing on other classes), and how it might be a replacement for what they lost. With nerfs incoming to spirit rangers, engineer, thieves, warriors (S/S + LB might take the new meta spot too from Hambow), and the minor ones to necro it would not be surprising to see PU (untouched so far) come up in the world.

As far as the stealth goes. Condi attrition builds are pretty much top their in the meta atm and that is unlikely to change after the patch. PU is not a permanent stealth build while not true point holder bunker it is strong enough to pressure. When you consider the gaps between random arena solo que and team you’ll notice that the point holding and strategy become considerably more important. In the randoms it is all about killing the the most annoying or hard to fight builds generally get singled out for QQ. A build primarily becomes OP here. Players evaluate how hard it is to deal with a build before they take to the forums or map chat to complain. PU get over shadowed by a number of other builds but if those builds get brought down then the target changes (which happens often). DD burst thief, burst warrior, DD ele, Shatter memser, Phant Mes, Spirit ranger, condi burst necro, warrior, etc. Meta changes when minor things are buffed, and new builds arise. Even small buffs here and there lead to drastic meta shifts.

I was simply guessing the next target for complaint as OP vs balanced is mostly in the eye of the beholder.

I think nothing much will change as far as the overall meta goes. PU might go OP in the next patch but likely what we see now (condi. tanky DPS, Bunker) will remain the same.

ronpierce.2760:

Well I think the game is too late to “change” enough to “fix” it. But that doesn’t stop it from being fun with what we have, as long as balance changes still come. Rewards are already being looked at, same with play modes, so that’s just a dead horse waiting to be resurrected, no sense of beating it anymore for now.

I do not mean in the sense that balance changes couldn’t be done or game modes added or that the product is impossible to fix. I mean is the credibility of Spvp so damaged that even if it were to be elevated to the apex of what it could be would it still be empty due to the damage already done?

Tanky DPS and Spike conditions seem to get similar result without the risk reward of burst builds (where there is much more risk than rewards these days). Beyond the .“Well I wear a zerker necklace and I do fine”. commentary is building an entire build around burst really worth it anymore?

Between the lack of interest, lack of confidence, and lack of reward is Spvp too far gone to be brought to the level of “E-Sport”? Will changes in meta be enough, game modes, and rewards be enough to bring the rest of the population here?

NevirSayDie.6235:

Some good discussion, thanks for keeping it civil and reasonable everyone.

TheGuy.3568:

I think Dec 10th’s balance changes might help but overall condis probably need to be reworked require both condition duration and condi damage for any sort of strong DPS.

Almost all of them already do require both of those.

You can achieve strong DPS in a condi spec even without heavy investment into condition duration due the constant application. Base times are long enough to apply pressure and condis are very cheap to apply.

I could run HGH engineer and just use the base investment in explosives and do some damage. However, if I go 3 kit then application constant and varied I do not need to invest heavily in condi duration. That being said you invest in it and yes your DPS will go up the problem is it is high to start with even without it.

Additionally due to the randomness of application (lots of on crit proc etc) it is very hard nigh impossible to dodge a spike. I still think condi should always have place but much like the idea of not tossing in too much CC with DPS many condi builds are getting the best of both worlds too cheaply.

roamzero.9486:

TheGuy.3568:

In a team fight you see your big aoe condi build that burns down player in a sec and think, “Wow what a great build that completely dominated my opponent while they could do little or nothing to stop me.” *A P/D thief (and DD for that matter) may not be meta but in theory they are what condi specs should be. Stack up stupid numbers of one condition, are innately defensive, and have access to other conditions (to cover) however, they can not bomb.

Another issue is that Anet is pumping up anti-condition abilities so classes can deal with bombers like Necros and Engies, but it’s also an indirect nerfing to more balanced condition builds. Why couldn’t they just go to the source? Like, make Dhuumfire and Incendiary powder only proc when no damaging conditions are present on target. It would be nice to see condi eles/thieves/guards viable some day without them being pumped up to necro/engineer/spirit ranger levels.

Because it is the easy way to deal with it. When they nerfed quickenes they hit warriors much harder than theives and they knew it. that is how blancign goes some builds get hit harder than others. Fact is though they have steadily been buffing P/D thief over the past months. The issue is nothing they could really make it competitive.

I main engineer bur even I find the bunkering a bit shameless. That being said I feel all types of builds should have place. The main issue is that AoE condi builds have gotten so strong that player really cant outright counter them and they can not let them go due to bunkers.

The best bet would be to lower the AoE, the duration of conditions and placement of traits (which they are doing).

ahuba.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

A small chime in. I do not think condi both CC and Damaging are bad for the game. The issue is that they are easy to spam and are too capable of building defensively. There are many solutions but the easiest would likely be adding in more skills in like Berserker Stance where there are opportunitites not to be snared to death and fight back.

We do not need to do away with conditions as they are inherently part of the game. I think P/D and DD Death Blossom are pretty much what condi specs should be. Annoying but not the most potent dps out there. I think when you add in all the Malboro level bad breath spamming it feels like an uphill battle.

I think Dec 10th’s balance changes might help but overall condis probably need to be reworked require both condition duration and condi damage for any sort of strong DPS. If they add in diminishing returns on all CC then I think we might be on the right path.

so you want condition builds to suck is that it? condition builds (meta condition builds) are over the top, but those you mentioned completely suck.

Sigh…. what do you play condi bomb engineer or necro? My guess is you have never touched a P/D thief or fought one.

In a team fight you see your big aoe condi build that burns down player in a sec and think, “Wow what a great build that completely dominated my opponent while they could do little or nothing to stop me.” A P/D thief (and DD for that matter) may not be meta but in theory they are what condi specs should be. Stack up stupid numbers of one condition, are innately defensive, and have access to other conditions (to cover) however, they can not bomb. They can toss a few thing quickly but that is about it. No huge chill or burning. It is simple but effective and most of all they tick damage vs burst it. Instead of Fire Bleeding Poison Torment Fear (terror) and managing to soft CC you too it is just a little bit of chill, some poison and easy application (but a ton of) bleeds. Their is actually counter play to those builds they have relatively weak aoe (but they do have it) and require pushing into melee range (vs anything but ranger) to maximize condi damage.

Before you get up in arms consider the context of the post and read exactly what I said. And if you are going respond all angrily to this pointing out how much you think condi thief sucks don’t bother. My post isn’t about that and I am in no mood to argue ie your response will be ignored.

Simple answer is that every class has cheese builds and warrior tends to have the cheesiest of them all. Is every warrior build easy to play? Not really. However, the buffs have pretty much put most warrior builds in the Kraft cheese category (the cheesiest).

Before you feel like you should quit your warrior or try a harder class consider this.
There was a point where warrior was bottom of the barrel and winning anything was skill and luck. DD ele used to be top dog and now is bottom of the barrel. Necro used to be a joke and now they are plague. Engineer has been nerfed so many times it is stupid but in the right hands is still considered worth posting a QQ thread over. What is my point? Whatever class you invest in make sure you love the core mechanics. Balancing is a living thing and truth be told there will be times where your class is King and times where it is the pauper. Invest in a class you feel you could play no matter the environment.

If you love your warrior and the way it plays then ignore the pm, block the person who sent it, (sore losers are to be ignored) and do what makes you happy. It is your time and your dollar. So, use it as you like and try to have fun.

A small chime in. I do not think condi both CC and Damaging are bad for the game. The issue is that they are easy to spam and are too capable of building defensively. There are many solutions but the easiest would likely be adding in more skills in like Berserker Stance where there are opportunitites not to be snared to death and fight back.

We do not need to do away with conditions as they are inherently part of the game. I think P/D and DD Death Blossom are pretty much what condi specs should be. Annoying but not the most potent dps out there. I think when you add in all the Malboro level bad breath spamming it feels like an uphill battle.

I think Dec 10th’s balance changes might help but overall condis probably need to be reworked require both condition duration and condi damage for any sort of strong DPS. If they add in diminishing returns on all CC then I think we might be on the right path.

I have no choice to presume that this is a troll or a joke. First off never delete an 80 warrior it is literally the safest class to invest in these days even with the nerfs incoming.

Guardians do not have the mobility and “sticking power” to even compare what you could with a warrior on a kittenty build in WvW. I am not complaining. This is simply the truth. Higher mobility and better CC with better base stats. The difference is noticeable and brutal as a well played warrior much like a thief can disengage from just about any fight.

I am not sure what you want to hear. The grass is not greener on this side of the fence.

Kilandros.2098:

To be honest it’s difficult to acknowledge every single one of your points, particularly as your increasingly intractable position has left you increasingly difficult to communicate with civilly. So yes, I am being rather selective.
The point that I’m trying to make—indeed the point that keeps eluding you—is that we’re all in fact talking about what you refer to as “opportunity cost” (i.e., traits in one line take away from another line). The point that has been repeatedly made—and the point that you continue to argue uphill against—is that 10 in Virtues pays dividends in opportunity cost.
In other words, no matter what you’re trying to do, 10 (or more) in Virtues generates more “bang for its buck” than 10 (or more) spent elsewhere.

And what you keep missing is that it is situational. Your basic point is that 10 points in virtue is a must. I said it is not. You tried to use an example of a specific situations to make a point that I never contested (that it has it’s uses). However, like I said WoR does not need it to be a good skill at base level it is a great skill. UC has its uses but in many fights your Aegis will be gone before you know it (in many other it will be their the entire time). In either case you chose to pick an argument and I just do not see the value of continuing.

Like I said before players will constantly like consumers justify their purchase while ignoring all other options or simply undermining them. I never argued up hill but you have presented in your post the prime example of the mindset I mentioned in my first post.

The main problem is that you are not reading and I am tired of discussing this with you. What you see as me eluding the point is you simply not reading my post. If you wont read it then……..whats the point of discussion. So lets end this here.

Kilandros.2098:

Your assertion that it is “simply unnecessary” is a logical fallacy, so your question regarding my reading ability is forgiven given your complete misunderstanding of the principal argument at work here. Technically, none of the traits are “necessary” to play Guardian. What we’re discussing is optimization. Optimal builds utilize 10 in Virtues to have access to, among other things, Master of Consecrations. Even if you aren’t using WoR, or you aren’t keeping Aegis up all of the time, the 10 in Virtues is powerful enough that it’s worth having.

To Recap: Even when you aren’t using them, they are powerful enough to warrant going into Virtues for an optimal build.

So you are telling me for every encounter in the game WoR is a necessity? If not then what I said was exactly what I meant.

Now I see the big arguments and the antics with semantics come into play here so let me break it down for you.

Optimizing what? DPS in comparison to support. Because by that same logic I could say in many if not most fights you could go full DPS and be a net benefit to the team but with every little to no support. In many cases guardian support is a luxury but not a necessity as many classes can and do run support. Further more our greatest support is WoR as many classes have seen their condition management increased. The same goes for stability. So what we really have is is strong reflect that sets us apart. The thing is the importance of WoR is based on a few encounters where it is considered nearly absolutely vital but in most cases it is not. In many cases carrying another trait/skill might be better.

The issue is that this has already been said. As stated in my OP the absolute demand that someone prove their build is best at all thing over shadows the truth that tradeoffs happen from build to build.

The main issue I have is the vacuum many of you live in where your one build is best. The fact is going 10 20 or even 30 into virtues can be justified but that is does not need to be. Those 10 points can go there or somewhere else. There is an opportunity cost. Without recognizing that its like your trying to argue that your build, those traits, etc. are good when I have conceded that already and just pointed out that their are other competitive options.

And no you are not reading just selectively pulling your eyes to what you do not like. I understand that but it makes me wonder why discuss if you intend to stand on a box and defend a build not being attacked?

haviz.1340:

TheGuy.3568:

Power of the Virtuous lol did you actually read the trait? (hint: read the bold)

Elusive power in real play where you might not be the perfect player who never get hit while having 0 vigor. is generally more bang for you buck vs UC. You could be perfect run CoF 1 and never get even then I would say it is better.

And no it does not always do more dps.

Would you mind if I interrupt your thought process?

If you have elusive power you have permanent vigour. That leads to the decrease of elusive power’s efficiency to lower levels. As such, I would kindly disagree with you about its potential.

Do you ever dodge? Do you ever have to dodge each and every attack to keep your scholar bonus? In some encounter for the most part you could just stand there never get hit and never lose Aegis thus UC would be a better choice. In most fights as a zerker guardian you dodge when necessary and generally that is often. If that is the case then your endurance bar is never full even with vigor.

Anicetus.1253:

TheGuy.3568:

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

25 in virtues, power of the virtuous.

You’re welcome.

Edit: It’s always less.

Power of the Virtuous lol did you actually read the trait? (hint: read the bold)

Elusive power in real play where you might not be the perfect player who never get hit while having 0 vigor. is generally more bang for you buck vs UC. You could be perfect run CoF 1 and never get even then I would say it is better.

And no it does not always do more dps.

Do you have a problem reading? I do not ask this is an insult but as an actual question.

Kilandros.2098:

But it’s not just “2 seconds.” It’s 12 seconds uptime and 20 seconds downtime instead of 30 seconds downtime.

“For your second in many fights it is simply unnecessary for other fights most of the time with a DPS party you are done before the CD is up.”

Kilandros.2098:

Not to mention that your argument regarding DPS seems to ignore the fact that Wall of Reflect is capable of doing massive damage. Take Lupicus for example: People don’t hold onto WoR when they need to save their butts—they get in there and pop it at the right time to do insane damage.

“in many fights it is simply unnecessary "

“Wall of reflection works even without the trait.”

Not every dungeon requires it. It will not do massive damage in all situations. In many cases it is factually useless. Does that mean you never bring it? No. But the game is not a vacuum where there is only one build. There are trade offs with each and every build. Realistically looking at what is gained what is lost is simply practical.

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

CptAurellian.9537:

TheGuy.3568:

You will pump out more DPS with normal play with 10 30 0 30 0 than 10 30 0 5 25 any day so not a big issue.

Rather not. The meta has both better support and better DPS under normal conditions.

Master of consecrations is useful but that is really is you need wall of reflection and how long will you really need it (2 extra seconds is not going to make or break a build)?

Increasing the uptime from max 25% to max 37.5% is quite significant.

Sigh…your first statement likely revolves around this being up all the time which in most cases it will not be. Though in some cases you can keep it up in most fights it will not be up the entire time. Even so you have no numbers to prove your claim. What we do know is that in either case their are more DPS traits honor that work to the rather dodgy play of Zerker guardian. Not that big an issue but many feel a need to measure their “manhood” through their build.

Feel free to do a giant DPS test to prove your point if you feel so inclined.

For your second in many fights it is simply unnecessary for other fights most of the time with a DPS party you are done before the CD is up. Percentages are nice but 2 seconds is 2 seconds.

If you go 20 into virtues for both you further kitten your DPS and even if you did go that deep it you would carry AR instead. Not a bad idea for support.

Like I said both builds are fine but many …… people feel the need to prove how good their build is when its pretty much not that better then the other.

The differences are small at best the trades offs clear. Not really worth an argument.

Read the last part of my first post. Here is a quote since you missed it the first time.

“Instead of arguing just respect each others play style and let it go. Stop trying to justify your decision to play what you play both builds have their glaring trade offs. Recognize them and move on.”

First off both builds are fine so there is no need to justify using them. You will pump out more DPS with normal play with 10 30 0 30 0 than 10 30 0 5 25 any day so not a big issue. You will have more reflects and a fire fields with the other. The trade offs are minimal at best and you can switch in the appropriate skills as you go along.

Master of consecrations is useful but that is really is you need wall of reflection and how long will you really need it (2 extra seconds is not going to make or break a build)? Generally a shouts build is more boon friendly for the party, but condition management isn’t as strong with many conditions. It is better at spot removal though. Virtues is good, but honestly very overrated and the general mindset is something along the lines of, “I run virtues. I have for a long time. It is the best PvE build in all situations. Anything else sucks.” A better quote

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Neither build you recommended have 10 in Virtues so they are automatic fail. Master of Consecration is literally the best thing you can be doing on a pve Guardian, so a build that doesn’t use it is kitten from the start.

The major flaw in this thinking is that all guardians must run full group support and sacrifice DPS for it. Truth is most groups do not need all that much support outside fractals. Most guardians wont touch Elusive Power and maximize their DPS in respect to support because they have this hard coded mentality that not running Virtues is bad play.

Let me break it to you:

Wall of reflection works even without the trait.

Every class is getting condi management out the kitten to up their support so relax.

Both builds are fine but if you are honestly trying to maximize DPS then you are going to spec out of virtues. Maximizing support then back into virtues.

Instead of arguing just respect each others play style and let it go. Stop trying to justify your decision to play what you play both builds have their glaring trade offs. Recognize them and move on.

Btw op unless they plan to revert,“Pure of voice” then no 10 30 0 30 0 doesn’t need a buff.

Aza.2105:

Amins.3710:

Nerfing VP will destroy Glassier builds that do not take any combination of our current meta in WvW / PvP: 30 in Valor or 15 in Honor

End of Story.

GET US OUT OF THESE 2 TREE’s…. We’ve been saying it since beta…

Do this, then a swap of VP & EP would be completely justified.

I agree with you to a extent. With the current state of guardian, nerfing vp would destroy tons of builds. However this points to a very valid concern, that guardian has a over reliance on vp.

When you remove vp it magnifies defective designs with the class. Which are the normal complaints we see: low health pool, no mobility and no cc. In order to nerf vp they will have to buff other areas to compensate. For example, there is a 90% reliance upon vp for mitigation. It would have to be nerfed to a 30% reliance but the other 60% is allocated in other areas of mitigation like aegis, block, protection up time, blinds, weakness and healing.

Its very doubtful that Anet will increase guardian’s health pool or give mobility. CC is possible though.

The bigger issue is this. If they up CC where will they put it? Because the builds that get hit the hardest by these crappy and I do mean crappy ideas is the ones they least expect to be impacted. Glass builds will suffer the most and it is very unlikely well see more CC added to sword to compensate. For that matter the main complaint is again based in Spvp and the overall discussion has very little say about PvE/WvW where a major change to VP wouldn’t only be unjustified but would put many of our glassier builds on the shelf.

Right now we maybe the best mid bunker but kitten we aren’t the only ones and by far the least offensive while doing it.

There is a perception that something needs to be nerfed. Truth is players are getting antsy watching so many traits being moved on other classes and wanting some sort of nerf for all. Fact is unless they plan to grossly improve our weapons and CC without impacting glass builds there is no need to touch VP.

Punishing every build for our now nerfed so many times we cannot count bunkers is simply stupid.

The trait that only work when we can actually hit the target that allows glass builds with as much HP as thieves but no stealth and less sticking power should be nerfed? Really?

IMHO having a pocket thief in your gallery of toons is just a smart decision. That being said you will have to wait till end game to figure out what class you really like and that will be all on you. Play style personally when running dungeons I generally run guardian for the obvious reason but each and every class has it’s place in PvE as all classes do damage. So there is no reason to think you can not run XYZ because the community says so.

Best advice I could give you is run whatever you like in open world. In dungeons know the run and stick to power builds if you can.

Unless they plan to up our sticking to targets, hp, or cc I do not see a reason to change this. Unlike many vigor traits on the nerf chopping block this one like Mesmer’s requires you to hit the target. It has almost no use in kiting and is pretty much the only thing between surviving and dying repeatedly as a power/burst guardian. Nerf it and you put the nail in the coffin for power builds which no surprise they are trying to buff. Lets cut the BS a second here. This is another case of Spvp “OMG guardian bunker is too strong” (it really isn’t)overshadowing everything else about the class. The sad part is it isn’t like bunker wasn’t nerfed recently. It is not like other classes bunkers have not been buffed. And worst of all its not like this isn’t the same spvp tunnel vision that has strangleheld this game for the past year rearing its ugly head.

This, “My class is getting nerfed so your’s should too.”, mentality is nasty. Guardian have been in what the devs call a “good spot” for months now. The honest truth is our burst builds outside PvE are easy to avoid. We have the most issues sticking to targets. We have one of the most hectic playstyles with our low hp while dealing with the condition meta which hilariously we can not build to be a part of. Our AoE (outside staf auto) is a joke. Ranged weapons are just….sigh.

I really am not complaining but this weak scope in class balance is killing this game.

Considering the big picture is vigorous precision really so strong it is imbalanced vs the rest of the field? I mean really with boon corruption, boon stealing, and the ridiculous number of conditions is it really imbalanced?

Sigh.. Hey Jon

Sword really needs one thing and that is a bit of CC on flashing blade. Chill, Immobilize, cripple. The main issue with sword is not the DPS it is simply the fact that the mobile weapon is terrible at sticking to moving targets. If you truly honestly want to help without going overboard do us all a favor and give a bit of soft CC to the weapon. There are lots of “big” ideas floating around but big changes never work out well. This is a simple issue imho. Sword lacks “sticking” capability and that is about it. In PvE it is perfectly fine and has been for a long time now.

A dps guardian will not be running GS as primary as it is. The same with Warrior so….. no point discussing it from a dps perspective.

A few things.

Most players do not min/max their builds. So running party composition “XYZ” in mot cases will not net you a thing. Speed runs are picky and even then rotations communications in many runs play a big part in getting done faster but honest truth is outside speed runs no one should really care.

Of the 6 80s I have (had a ranger deleted kitten make my engineer long ago and still sort of leveling necro) if I had to choose class to enter an dungeon randomly and do it in zerker gear it would be my guardian. Overall it is the most sound choice in terms of what I can do vs DPS loss.

That being said any class can be useful with a competent player at the helm.

I think this topic shows up so much because players are a bit self conscious about their class and want to justify running whatever they are running. The thing to remember is outside of speed runs sorry to say but just about no one cares. If you want to bring the best to your party then do so but in most cases your efforts will go unnoticed.

imaginary.6241:

I’ll address that as well later, I’m still not finished and also not QQing about Vigor as I made certain valid points as to how and why other classes are fine without Vigor.

TheGuy.3568:

Re-read the patch notes for each class. Balancing is going to be a hell of a lot more than “My class got hit with a nerf not fair”.

So where did I say “My class got hit with a nerf not fair” ? Again, you better re-read my Explanation and give a resonable response not “My build was always fine without it”. I did even try to incooperate their changes in a new build incooperating their statement / changes and pointing out whats the problem with it in my opinion.

Balancing is going to be a hell of a lot more than “My build is fine”. Right?

And don’t forget it incooperates not only PvE, WvW, sPvP aspects but also the Basics about Build diversity both by investing in the correct Traitlines as well as the ability to switch on the fly between certain usefull Trait-Skills.

Your main issue is your shortsighted and one sided for instance. PvE is not balanced so do not expect that argument to hold much weight (same with WvW for the most part).

“Now toning down Vigor access for other classes like Thiefs and Warrior should be fine. As those HAVE OTHER MEANS TO EVADE OR ESCAPE SOLEY WITH THEIR WEAPON SKILLS OR CLASS MECHANICS. Like for example GS#3 or Shortbow #5.”

Toolkit, elixir S, toss elixir S, Shield, Sigil of energy, rocket boots, smart use of smoke bomb and finishers, etc. You have quite a few options quit your QQ. BTW nothing you mentioned is class mechanic for thief or warrior.

Like I said in the big picture the vigor is literally minimal and hitting everything that allows it on demand. It really is whining on your part. And if you read my whole post I did say incendiary powder is a viable issue. So save the whole I will beat you with how bad this class is hurting. Read the other classes balancing. The field is about to change drastically. Do not be the guy posting huge QQ without looking at how the entire field is changing.

The sky is not falling.

pheroth.5306:

Can you explain how a 40-50% reduction is a minor nerf?

Because they are doing it cross class.

@imaginary

Just no. HgH never relied on perma vigor and while I do not find it game-breakingly OP it really is joke to complain about its minor nerf. It is not core and has never been core. No joke.

S/D got a nerf as well so CC will be hitting that build much harder so in the right way a nerf got through strong enough to hurt the now one boon stealing build.

Instead of qqing over the vigor (which was nerfed for traits not pertaining to on crit cross class) perhaps we should address the Incendiary Powder issue.

Re-read the patch notes for each class. Balancing is going to be a hell of a lot more than “My class got hit with a nerf not fair”.

Sigh..why bother? Fact is the class was OP (not really) then UP then OP. Players came in like waves and anyone who dare say this class had even one OP trait was branded an traitor and flamed.

The way I see it everything I asked for months ago got done and they went overboard with the hammer nerfs, but who knows how that will pan out. FoTM players will move on to the next top their class if this one still isn’t at that level. What disappoints me the most is that we all know in another class forum conversation will erupt over what is OP and what is not resulting in the same wasted arguments we saw here.

I will be glad to dust off my Lyssa warrior (which I hung up due to feeling too strong), however I feel the community that used to be the best has gone to kitten in this length of time. So many good warrior defended stun lock builds and Ham/Bow as being skill based vs OP traits and mechanics. As much finger pointing goes to the FoTM the same should go to the players who were active and positive members of the community who stayed quiet or simply jumped on the band wagon.

I do not know what irks me more of the two. While some may want to dance on the grave that might be the warrior profession I am honestly not feeling “The told you so!” and feel more like the damage has been done. What used to be the hardest working class has turned into the the cheesiest most disgusting pool of bad players I have ever seen. So while I agree with many of the nerfs coming to this class I feel the opportunity to rework warrior into something good and unique has been lost.

felivear.1536:

b2p is NOT > P2P.

At this point, I wish GW2 would have been P2P from the start. They would have to devote more resources to the game and then the resources added wouldn’t have to be spent making fluff that will drive gem sales.

I hate that this game is B2P and I am excited that ESO and Wildstar are P2P, because if they are any good and people like it, they will have to STAY good and keep changing for the better, or that game will turn into this game.

Commercial hit, to dead.

A little off topic but generally free to play games are commercially more successful than subs (WoW and lineage 2 being outliers and Asia has many models we do not). Many subscription games of late namely (SWTOR but you can add in Aion, Secret World, Rift, Tera, DCUO, LOTRO, WAR do I really need to go on?) went free to play or buy to play due to it being simply more lucrative to do so.

If you are worried about resources GW2 copied probably one of the best models in FTP market for their gem store. It works much like the PWE “Gem Store” (item mall) where you can earn virtual currency (by playing the game) and trade it for another form of virtual currency that is backed by real fiat money. This means that everybody contributes to the economy as long as they use the gem exchange.

Subscriptions quite frankly a bad model for new titles outside of the niche game market. That is unless the game focuses on some core element that does not have mass appeal then there is no need to spend money on a sub to perpetuate the game. Item malls allow players some to spend much more than the $15 standard monthly fee. Additionally it attracts a larger audience to new games allowing those with barriers to entry ie people without credit cards those who cannot afford a monthly sub etc and those who refuse to play subs but will pay for a box to enter into the market.

Subscriptions are somewhat of a suckers game. You basically trust the developers with your money to support their development. If you dislike an expansion or quit the game all that money is gone and you no longer have access. The best thing about the hybrid buy to play item mall setup is that it is very easy for player to see what they spent their money on and why. They additionally never lose access to the game. The content they buy is theirs for the lifetime of the game. It is the life time sub (the best possible sub there is on most games as long as you get it early on) with a few more options for the buyer.

I do not main an Necro. That being said I am for mobility balancing cross class. I think the main fear with giving necro mobility has to do with the level of cc a condi necro has. Power builds do not really have that same CC and there is inherently more risk in running it vs condi (due to the way you can stack up on condition damage and defnsive stats).

IMHO making Dark Path and ground targeted teleport and upping its CD to 20 seconds would be sufficient. I think Reworking Dark Path to port or lunge and immobilize upon hitting a target would be fair as main hand dagger players more into power builds. I think the combination of the 2 would up necro mobility without majorly impacting balance.

First toon I ever lvled was a P/D thief. The main issues are that it is very easy for most targets to get away. Other condi specs will blow you out of the water. D/D D/P S/D just have an easier time doing targets. That being said. If you want to solo camps and towers in seconds (if you can get in) then yes P/D is the way to go. If a player chooses to stay they your attrition will beat most classes.

Last time I ran into a P/D thief solo in WvW on my DD thief I could barely touch him. He got me to like 20 percent life I created a gap and his DPS just stopped. It is the same story cross class the chase is so bad for WvW even with the new body shot.

@Demonts

Skill 1 bleeds,l 2 vulnerability and immobilize, 3 torment, 4 cripple, 5 vulnerability. If you use venom and runes you can apply many more conditions.

Ok like i said in the collaborative development post many of thideas tossed out there would just make guardian OP. Not everyone runs 0 0 30 30 10 in WvW. Roamers generally run meditations.

As far as the future of the class the depends on what the devs do. If they take hard look at us and the meta across the board we would likely see some buffs but probably not the ones we need for WvW but the ones for Spvp DPS builds (bunkers are fine). Base stat increase is likely necessary but they haven’t done that on anything except pets so I wouldn’t expect it. No real point going it. there are some issues but Anet isn’t rushing decisions like they did early on. End of year/next year might see a real balance patch but in the short expect little changes here and there and maybe almost none to this particular class.

Ashanor.5319:

Oh, you again. It’s hilarious that I recognize so many names from this thread as whiners from the warrior forums a few months back. Same old people still trying to perpetuate the myths and get classes nerfed.

What about what I said was wrong? So far you fall right into what I said in the post. smh. I will say it again if you quote me read me. If not whats the point of having a discussion? Read your other post in this topic. We do not need to have a discussion. It will just lead to some type of back a forth with you insulting me randomly and not discussing the facts. Not doing that. So I read your post. I disagree. Discussion between you and me done.

The issue with warrior is a simple one. It has many strong builds but overall its sustain between it’s stuns invul states, and condition management is too high. What makes it funny is that it really isn’t far off from the old DD bunker except it has higher sustained, much higher mobility, and more stuns (not to mention better stat contributions every where except healing power) where old DD bunker had better condi management.

I mained warrior for 5 months. I posted many threads begging Anet for buffs. I waited a month after the Mc/Sh + GS meta (to test it myself) before I said a kitten thing about it. The minute I explained why it was OP I got bashed by the same people I posted with asking for buffs the month before. That is the truth of the situation. Hypocrisy is rampant. The devs are learning their lesson from buffing and nerfing too much and too heavy handedly early on forcing us to deal with the meta and figure out what they could not.

Every player with some sort of objectivity and game knowledge pretty much knows what is blatantly OP in the game as of this moment. They know that when the build they did ok with before now lets them win nigh every 1 v x it is probably OP. They generally go with it, enjoy the wins, and account their new success to being better at the game then someone else. They will jump on a class beat some one who they guess is using a build similar to their own and justify their own build. It is a situation you bump into so often it isn’t even funny. S/D buff for thieves, Dhuumfire and terror for necro, kit refinement for engineer, Shattered Strength for mesmer, the list goes on and on. Players knew it was OP who played the class at the time and still they did so and defend their builds.

The most begrudging thing to get a player to say is. “You might have over buffed us”. In the minds of many players there is no such thing as this.

Anet won’t make a move fearing we will figure something else out to throw balance out of whack. Many players will flock to the fotm get their wins and defend their builds. I will sit on the side lines for now. Being OP really is not my thing. I hope Anet in the future gets some more eyes on balance.

Crapgame.6519:

TheGuy.3568:

As far as roaming guardian. Learn how to target bunnies :-)

P.E.T.A is not going to approve that message!!!!

;)

Now you listen here I don’t take out those bunnies for the fun of it or to just get around. Those bunnies…..they can be dangerous. You have been warned.

@darreljnz pretty much hit the nail on the head.

You can roam well with a guard. However you wont catch much of anything as we just do not have the snares for it on an extremely mobile set.

Any class can roam well and easily save necro (though they do roam from time to time). That being said a well played thief will simply survive more situations than any other class. The reason is simple. If a small group sees an ultra mobile warrior likely no one will catch him. If it is a zerg there is a good chance of getting caught. Same with ranger mesmer etc. Thief with a well played stealth build (doesn’t have to be D/P) and shadowstep as long as the thief doesn’t over extend will not go down. It really is that simple. This leads to making builds that are slightly glassier but still have enough survivability and mobility to remain a threat vs running away solely. 1 v x has its limits so if you want the guaranteed, “20 man zerged just poppped on me oh kitten gotta run class”, it really is thief.

As far as roaming guardian. Learn how to target bunnies :-)

lLobo.7960:

The advantage of the FT used to be the stability and fast attack rate (to proc tons of on-crit effects)

Not to be too rude but I am pretty sure sigils didn’t work with kits back then.

As far as the stability goes I do not know. I think maybe reworking flame thrower as kit all together might be the way to go.

Why? Simple answer you get more utility and survivability out of other builds. DPS is debatable vs zerker nades.

Ohh I don’t know maybe any build using D/P P/D S/D D/D as a weapon set. Builds where you utilize your great mobility, evades, and/or stealth and do not over extend yourself. Those generally work.

If you have most classes leveled what difference does it make? Thief simply is not the best class for PvE but in WvW it is the king of roaming. In Spvp it barely has a place outside hot join or good ole SD spam. The only class really reaping the I am good everywhere and can be good at everything is warrior and even that has it’s limits.

For so many people who play all these classes I always tend to wonder if anyone has a clue. I could play D/P all day troll the kitten out of people in WvW get them to rant that thief is OP.

At the same time most of the thieves you see in dungeons are nigh useless. You know what let me rephrase that. On my full zerk guard I will have better up time better sustained more group support and still better range than my thief on its best day (with a guardian!).

We have this idea that a class can not suck in one area and be great in another. So quit the class or stop playing the toon but it really isnt worth a big pity party,“this class is so much better than us so I am quiting!” post.

Want to point out what hurts thief? Then do so. However do not pretend like DP is super balanced or that S/D wasn’t insane til just a patch ago. People over play how strong thief is in WvW but truth is a good thief isn’t dropping to kitten and we all know it.

You can add that to the my necro sucks in PvE but its OK that I condi spam in Spvp, my warrior is completely balanced you guys just suck, and every other post that blows the whole thing out of proportion.

Ask for class balance point out what is wrong but I quit threads are just……smh.

Baron NJS.5704:

Wa the hell is elixir H..we dont have that?

Elixir H

The Game Slayer.7632:

TheGuy.3568:

Here is the issue in a nutshell it doesn’t just apply to ele but just about all early whack a mole nerfs cross class.

Early on because bunker builds and burst builds were so strong in Spvp and Anet decision that all game modes had to have the same skills lots of thing were nerfed to suit spvp. As they made drastic balance changes in each class. They slowed down and decided that deliberate change would work better at some point. As the class balance changed and things like PvE and WvW kept the bigger community Anet still decided to balance around Spvp. As their outlook changed and they moved to a philosophy of splitting skills many skills that were nerfed into the ground were never revisited.

RtL is one of the best examples of why you need to revisit balance as the meta changes. We have no clue what Anet looks at or how they balance things at all. What we do know if that they judge the meta by Spvp which they seek to balance. Most players put their PvP hours into WvW and that is the big divide. WvW is inherently unbalanced and Anet has very few plans to attempt balancing it. However, at the same time PvE and WvW are what need balancing the most.

From main had D/x auto attacks being garbage, Anet acknowledging it and promising to bring it up, then ignoring it during the, “DD ele is so strong phase” to nerfing RtL I doubt Anet even knows whats coming next.

To the OP consider how many threads have been post on this issue. Think about it a sec. Even if you want to restrain the topic to RtL the big picture is far beyond the nerf to this one skill.

The more attention the better. But seriously, I try to talk about RTL only and you guys go bat-cat crazy with stuff like this. “Ohh, my profession sucks, it was nerfed into the ground. i want to be able to faceroll people again! but dang anet wont let us do that!”
If my job was to balance a video game, and my one of my sources of feedback was forums to help me do my job, i can asure you i would seriously not give in to the doom and gloom crap. You need to give un-biased conversations for a-net dev’s to read, not this subjective crap that you guys continually pour out day in and day out. Anet devs are PEOPLE like you guys are! not mindless machines that take demands from a small portion of angry customers. Put good in, get good out.
Could we at least talk about ride the lightning and express our concerns for it in a non-emotional way?

I broke it down for you no more no less. You seem to view criticism as something emotional. Really it isn’t. You seem to think everyone wants to “face roll”. Once again you are reading things that simply aren’t there. RtL is a small portion of a much bigger problem. While you may feel the utmost sympathy for Anet’s devs many of us have been through a full year of rather ridiculous swings. As customers patience can only squeezed so thin.

Re-read what I wrote as I think you missed the point. you seem to have added your own insinuations that simply are not there. RtL is really a cross class mobility question based on a pure bunker meta in WvW that simply is no longer there. Logical arguments and request for them to look into RtL have be unanswered for months. Unless Anet plans to balance things around WvW (which they have said they do not) I would not expect much change here.

ODB.6891:

@Chico
I find that going 25 into honor is a waste as elusive power is counter intuitive to vigorous precision…the first trait in honor.

Actually it works with it. The idea is that you can dodge as you like without worrying about your bar. Most fight aren’t dodge wait 10 seconds dodge again. This mean you can keep elusive power up nearly all the time while not impacting your defense. Remember it is a 10% damage bonus managing your stamina is worth the extra dps.

I understand what the OP is saying. At the same time if you have played this long you already know the measures to stop yourself from getting kicked.

Here is the issue in a nutshell it doesn’t just apply to ele but just about all early whack a mole nerfs cross class.

Early on because bunker builds and burst builds were so strong in Spvp and Anet decision that all game modes had to have the same skills lots of thing were nerfed to suit spvp. As they made drastic balance changes in each class. They slowed down and decided that deliberate change would work better at some point. As the class balance changed and things like PvE and WvW kept the bigger community Anet still decided to balance around Spvp. As their outlook changed and they moved to a philosophy of splitting skills many skills that were nerfed into the ground were never revisited.

RtL is one of the best examples of why you need to revisit balance as the meta changes. We have no clue what Anet looks at or how they balance things at all. What we do know if that they judge the meta by Spvp which they seek to balance. Most players put their PvP hours into WvW and that is the big divide. WvW is inherently unbalanced and Anet has very few plans to attempt balancing it. However, at the same time PvE and WvW are what need balancing the most.

From main had D/x auto attacks being garbage, Anet acknowledging it and promising to bring it up, then ignoring it during the, “DD ele is so strong phase” to nerfing RtL I doubt Anet even knows whats coming next.

To the OP consider how many threads have been post on this issue. Think about it a sec. Even if you want to restrain the topic to RtL the big picture is far beyond the nerf to this one skill.

Lock off melee combat assist. Step into the mob. Press 2. Profit.

Go 30 in radiance. Auto attack with sword. Profit some more.

I will say it again points in virtue are really a waist not taking vigorous precision is foolish as well. A DPS build is essentially 10 25-30 x x 0. A few things to note. If I had to choose between AH and nothing I would run without AH. Why you ask? Well I do advocate running whatever you need to survive. That being said in a real DPS build AH isn’t going to do all that much. You usually will not be putting out as many boons as shout support. Your light field from GS is going to provide a lot of those ticks from buffing party members. If you are really glassy you probably wont even notice the the increased healing.

If you are going to go down valor do it for the meditations. In a group it will not be as useful as a support build but you will be straight DPS. Considering most of out roles (save stability) can be covered by other nobody is really going to notice unless the party hits snag.

Up to you. Run what you need to survive but no more.

Solo run what ever you like conditions, PVT (don’t run this), zerker whatever. In dungeons the general rule of thumb is just to run zerker (or as much as you can survive with). Very little of the content is that challenging so you’ll be fine. Take Speedy Kits (which you have) and Invigorating Speed with that build to help yourself out. You have tool kit which give you a block good endurance regen but with those stats you are as glass as glass gets. Not to worry as long as you dodge well and do not end up in a stacking fight all is good.

It just doesn’t and never has.

/thread