Guild Wars 2

Viking Jorun.5413:

I’m awaiting Burnfall and Sanduskel’s responses to this. Haha.

Picture #1: The waiting

Picture #2: after I read the comments

Interceptor.2653:

TheGuy.3568:

IMHO I think they wont change it much. Given the heavy financial investment in ascended gear and weapons if they nerf it too much they are in for the type of kitten storm that only comes once in a while. They have nerfed many builds but in all honestly PvE meta has stayed Zerker so no one complained heavily. If they nerf it into the ground the money spent on the gear grind they promised us would not be in this game might lead to some legit quit threads.

The way I see it given the commendation, gold, fractal infusions, etc there is only so much they can do with out doing more harm then good.

This is fair, but we’ve been here before, remember: gear with magic find. ANet has it within their power to allow people to re-stat their Ascended gear to adjust to changes made to something like crit damage.

Likely they wont do that. The main reason is this might either be a nerf to crit damage, a change in mechanics, and/or a buff to condition damage. Unlike MF gear they aren’t getting rid of crit damage gear. The main concern I see is that they will boost other stat combos to the point that running glassy isn’t worth it. If they touch it in WvW well….

IMHO I think they wont change it much. Given the heavy financial investment in ascended gear and weapons if they nerf it too much they are in for the type of kitten storm that only comes once in a while. They have nerfed many builds but in all honestly PvE meta has stayed Zerker so no one complained heavily. If they nerf it into the ground the money spent on the gear grind they promised us would not be in this game might lead to some legit quit threads.

The way I see it given the commendation, gold, fractal infusions, etc there is only so much they can do with out doing more harm then good.

Maugetarr.6823:

I like the idea of changing BPS to a dark field and having the projectile hit cause stealth. You can then argue that people can dodge the key attack (same as with X/D) and it buffs S/P and P/P. With P/P especially, you get a bunch of possible life leeching attacks making up for its lack of evasion frames and mobility. All the counterplay that it would require is someone dodging the BPS, which is recognizable with its black shot and field creation. Since lifeleech recently was made to scale slightly better with power, It would be a real asset.

This would allow for the utility “Smokescreen” to remain untouched since the devs said they are fine with long stealth using utilities. It would also allow HS to keep its leap finisher for use with smokescreen.

I have to ask why would they nerf our best melee group support skill vs trash our anything not a champ? For S/P this would be a major nerf. And once again for the sake of D/P. What confuses me the most is the assumption that a stealth which cost 9 initiative at base should be a catalyst for nerfs for builds that rarely use stealth. Life leach will not make up for evade frames we are not hardy enough for that. We can not sit there and soak up DPS while regenerating. The class simply was not built that way.

I will ask again outside WvW roaming what would be the point of nerfing D/P?

Edit:
Read carefully. Our best access and pretty much only access to condi management vs damaging conditions builds is stealth. Pain response’s cd is too long and doesn’t proc to torment (our biggest killer). If you remove Stealth from DP the entire set would have to be reworked to give it some sort of management skill. It would also be a main hand dagger power build with no access to backstab ie pointless.

I get kittened because we keep reading thread after thread where people toss kitten at the wall (not just here everywhere) and do not consider the ramifications while begging for nerfs. D/P has no place in PvE. It barely has a place in Spvp and the only place it is really is good is in WvW roaming. The idea that the set should be gutted when WvW meta doesn’t even allow it to be a good zerging weapon is just beyond my understanding of logical balance.

IMHO it always seems a little dumb to me to punish every build just because D/P has strong access to stealth. Lets be serious for a second. When roaming people get kittened when they can’t land a kill. Us ranger, eles, guardians, mesmers, warriors, and engineers all have access to skills that will allow us to run when roaming. The funny thing is even if stealth got nerfed in the way you pretty much describe roaming builds will still out run zerging builds.

More anti stealth skills are not really an issue as long as classes that have issue with stealth get access to it. In reality that is really only ranger. Every other class despite their whining have effective measure to stop a thief from entering melee range undisrupted.

So what is the real issue? Chase. Players do not like builds that can disengage. They pay special attention to stealth. However, in truth from meditation guardian to un targeted sword ranger there are so many builds good for running it really is impractical to assume that nerfing stealth = thief can not disengage. If you run S/P + SB in WvW you would understand that if you equip roll for initiative and/or shadow step stealth you likely out run another player with ease.

there is no real issue with stealth but with the perception that stealth should be nerfed solely for the sake of one build. Perma stealth players are literally doing nothing.

The perception that the strongest thing about D/P is the stealth vs it’s unparalleled capability to stick to a target is why sometimes I wonder who is really playing this game.

TL;DR
Let me make this perfectly clear. This isn’t a balance issue in PvE, nor Spvp, nor zergs in WvW. This relates to one thing and one thing only roaming. The main thing this change would effect is our group support.

Zero Day.2594:

Hopefully, what can be taken away from this post for the devs/QQ-er’s is:
Nerfing/Making a change on stealth itself will require a lot of other changes (arguably more than what OP mentions).

Then again… who am I kidding… doubt either care.

A few things. Guardian do not 1 v 10 mobs in Orr unless they are built clerics or using a staff which is not DPS. BP as it has been pointed out and will be pointed out some more you can simply stand outside the circle and still land melee hits. 1 v x PvE is still thief topping the chart with S/P. Whether you plan to sit in the circle and auto attack or use PW and evade it pretty much lets you 1 v x anything that is not a champ or ranged.

If anything is over powered about DP we all know it isn’t the stealth or black powder.

Travlane.5948:

TheGuy.3568:

Swimfan.8014:

TheGuy.3568:

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

How do you effectivly build up might as a thief? I mean is there a combo-field or are you stacking by traits?

No when in organized party play the might get stacked for you essentially though we can easily contribute with a shortbow. What i mean was when you get 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability our DPS spikes with A DD build. The thing to remember is that in group play you are a group. getting supported with might stacks pushes our dps and the parties clear time. You do not need to stack it yourself you just need a competent group to do it for you.

d/d entire build will never ever outdmg a s/p build unless its a boss. period. auto attack only on sword beats entire d/d build. :P

thief BS is 5-6500 on average. can go higher maybe 8k if u have a decent d/d build /armor . if u are any higher ur gonna die…alot. even if its 10-12k its stillno comparison. even with 6k HS .

thief sword attack is like 2800 2800 4800 and repeats. so in a stack in a dungeon it goes 8400 8400 14400. even if you HS 3x in the same amount of time…u would be nowhere close to the dmg. 31,200 dmg from sword in 3 seconds. that would be 3 heartseekers at 10,400 dmg each. and less of a chance for rally revive.

even if u dont count multiple targets. single target dmg is only a bit more on d/d.

then u consider defense and utility for party…dagger brings nothing. its a boss weapon and farming weapon only when ur solo.

LTR

TheGuy.3568:
The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

Swimfan.8014:

TheGuy.3568:

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

How do you effectivly build up might as a thief? I mean is there a combo-field or are you stacking by traits?

No when in organized party play the might get stacked for you essentially though we can easily contribute with a shortbow. What i mean was when you get 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability our DPS spikes with A DD build. The thing to remember is that in group play you are a group. getting supported with might stacks pushes our dps and the parties clear time. You do not need to stack it yourself you just need a competent group to do it for you.

Arkantos.7460:

TheGuy.3568:

To make my point perfectly clear. If you want stealth nerfed you have to consider every trait, skill, and utility related to it and buff/change them and not just propose random nerfs and a bit of hp.

your most changes goes into shadow arts, you forgot the 4 other traitlines,
buffing only stealthed based traits would do more Independence into shadow arts as into others as well

I didn’t write up a balance patch if that were the case then it is an entirely different discussion. In general Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, and Trickery are actually pretty balanced. Each line serves their purpose well. With the exception being Acrobatics. Right now imho Pain Response, and Assassin’s Reward are just too under powered. Hard to catch is counter intuitive and pointless and needs a complete rework.

Juba.8406:

he used Signet of Knocking

Perhaps the warriors name was Jirou as well.

The only time i think DD isn’t good in a dungeon is when you are forced to stack and cant position yourself behind the boss. As far as trash goes S/P is better but SB its even better then that. Honestly just bring what you need. In most cases DD is fine, and truly if you get the perfect storm of might and vulnerability with a zerk build you will be near the top of the boards.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

If your point is: To nerf stealth, you must make Thieves into Warriors then ok, I get it.

Hell of a way to go about it while making it look like you’re pitching a theory-crafted revamp proposal though. I’ve read too many similarly formatted “revamp proposals” to think this was anything other than that. I don’t think even your first paragraph makes it clear that this ISN’T one of those.

I misread your intent. I do apologize.

lol

It is like the bold text at the top that says,“My main goal is that I wanted to illustrate the scope of change that would have to happen to truly nerf stealth and still leave thief functional.” is skipped with impunity though it is a known fact that I play thief and do not have an issue with stealth. Furthermore, I took the 2 harshest ideas from this thread and tried to propose the proper buffs that would have to go along with them to even keep thief functional. Taking into account HP regen, attacks generally avoided by stealth, condi management, sustained dps, blinds, burst, condi builds, and all traits and skills tied to stealth and their general functionality. Everyone who wants thief nerfed never ever says well look at what is tied to stealth first and see what needs to be buffed to let go of it. The truth is it is a lot.

My failure was thinking that showing how many traits were attached to stealth and the level of change you would have to consider it would be understood.

The other thing is no thief would not be warrior. Note 2 things I did not do. One I didn’t not suggest any type of protection or reduced damage. The second is I did not suggest any type of HP increase. The only class I had to use to figure out what thief would need is zerk guardian (the only other class I even feel like playing right now). Generally you avoid damage while using blinds and blocks. I suggested less hp regen but more blinds and evades. Since the traits changes are trait change you could literally only take 3 from SA. Thief would not be overpowered but defensive (which SA is all about). The only way to make thief warrior is to give it fast hands and up its stability and stun. Another thing I refused to propose. If there was a point besides my main point it would be,“To nerf stealth you would have to make all thieves evasion based.”

To make my point perfectly clear. If you want stealth nerfed you have to consider every trait, skill, and utility related to it and buff/change them and not just propose random nerfs and a bit of hp.

Requiem.8769:

You’re not trying to rework thieves. You’re trying to make them into warriors. Instead of “fixing” their core class mechanic (stealth), you’re neutering it and making changes elsewhere.

So how exactly would you “fix” while addressing each and every skill and trait affected by the “fix”?

Additionally read what I said more carefully.

Oghier.7419:

Stealth does not need a rework.

A small percentage of players will complain about stealth in any game. Approximately the same percentage of players post angry screed about any class or ability that kills them in PvP, especially if countering that class requires them to learn and adapt even slightly. The fact that a handful of posters continue to whine about stealth is not a sign that it needs a nerf, but simply a reflection of the fact that this is an MMO with PvP in it.

I never said it needs to be reworked. In fact for a while now I have posted why it really doesn’t need to be reworked.

My issue remains the same and I am sorry to say this but it is stupid played. If anyone is going to suggest a stealth nerf the first thing we hear is well base HP better get moved up. Rangers still have issues with conditions and they are above us in HP. No one ever mentions the loss in sustained that one missing backstab every 10 seconds during the 4 second reveal nerf.

My point was simple if you are going to advocate nerfing stealth you have to examine everything that gets nerfed at the same time. I took the time thought about each skill
and posted. I literally said some idea will seem dumb. My goal was to show you actually have to look at each thing that is getting nerfed with just a small change to stealth especially sustained DPS and condi management which is always ignored.

I do not want stealth nerfed but before making suggestions to change stealth look at everything affected by one simple nerf. I feel like an kitten looking at each skill and trying to figure out a buff to match the nerf and trying to explain why it would be a lot of work

3 things.

First you learn dungeons with time so dodging and evading attacks get easier the longer you play. If you are dying all the time on thief wear sturdier gear. You can get back to zerker but when you are learning dungeons its best to lose a little DPS rather than force other players to rez you.

S/P in melee is pretty much as easy as it gets in dungeons fights. Anyplace where you need to stack (like AC) this would be your go to. Cleave helps quite a bit as well when dealing with trash.

Bring every weapon with you. Some times you just have to range DPS (like TA) having PP and SB even when not traited for that type of build this will save you and your party a lot of hassle.

Travlane.5948:

@OP….. you have no idea how thieves work.

thieves die in 2-3 secs MAX if caught in any cc. yet you are proposing 10 sec revealed. nice. totally gonna work. (sarcasm)

Sigh “My main goal is that I wanted to illustrate the scope of change that would have to happen to truly nerf stealth and still leave thief functional.”

LTR

I forgot some thieves are too…

Look my point was to truly touch stealth it isn’t a one a done nerf or buff. Instead of being defensive read my post history. Guys like you kitten me off just as much as the “NERF THIEF NOW!” crowd.

If it was missed my point is that to nerf stealth I mean really nerf stealth you have to change every kittening skill related to it.

Wow thieves your just as sad as the trolls.

The point was it is too much work and the scope to big to ask for a nerf without major buffs and changing 20 something traits and skills.

Travlane.5948:

eww no. u forget…just like i said above. stealth cannot be changed til our base HP is moved up and some more defensive boons are added. without stealth…we need those. period. and i consider 10 sec revealed having no stealth.

I doubt you actually understand what changing stealth means. Sigh…it means sustained DPS for stealth builds get nerfed so does healing and defense. It isn’t a matter for 5k hp but everything reltated to stealth. Not understanding scope was the first mistake you made. Thinking I do not understand the class the second. Suggesting this reminds me why most thieves are just as oblivious as most of the trolls who troll you.

So if they nerfed stealth how would you add for the loss in sustained DPs and condition management?

Do you even play the class?

Reserved for later

Utilities
When revealed blinding powder produces a smoke field that on initial pulse within 900m blinds all enemy targets. For 6 seconds smoke aura is applied.

When revealed cloak and dagger heals for 950 hp and restores 20 endurance.

When revealed hide in shadows removes all conditions and evades attacks while being cast.

Shadow Trap reduced to 3 seconds. At end of stealth 3 seconds of smoke aura applied.

Shadow Refuge creates a dome that revives allies and provides 2 seconds of stability with each pulse. Dome blocks all projectiles. Provides 3 seconds of stealth with last pulse. CD increased to 90 seconds.

Blinding Tuft & Throw Feathers are now an evasive forward roll (450m) that blind enemies within 150m.

Combo

Leap + Smoke Field = Smoke aura for 4 seconds.

Blast + Smoke Field = Smoke Aura for 3 seconds AoE.

Smoke Aura – a smoky aura surrounds the the player and affects all enemies within 300m blinding them for 3 seconds 1 second interval. 50% chance to evade projectile.

Should look something like this. If you want to nerf stealth you have to address the issues the traits, utilities and weapon skills that are tied to it ie the sustained dps, healing, condition management etc. So after reading many nerf stealth threads I took a stab at what would likely need to happen to nerf stealth. These are just ideas so don’t flame me on any of them as they might seem dumb. My main goal is that I wanted to illustrate the scope of change that would have to happen to truly nerf stealth and still leave thief functional. Thank you for reading.

Reveal should be buffed to 10 seconds and stealth should last no longer than 3 seconds in exchange.

While out of stealth thieves have a 20% damage bonus on auto attack. (Stealth Attack) Vital Shot cast time reduced to .25 seconds.

Smoke Aura added to combo list. (see below)

While out of stealth thieves evade 1 incoming attack every 10 seconds. (general survival)

Traits

Thief get a passive that removes one condition every 5 seconds while out of stealth and one every 3 seconds while in stealth. (Shadow’s Embrace)

While out so stealth thieves regain 300 hp every 2 seconds. (Shadow’s Rejuvenation)

While out of stealth thieves blinds nearby enemies passively every 5 seconds. (Cloaked in Shadow)

If you take damage greater than 10% of your total health poll in a single strike, you release feathers to blind nearby enemies and evade 2 attacks (Instinctual Response)

While out of stealth thieves get 2 initiative every 5 seconds when initiative is below or equal to 6
(9 if trait Preparedness is present) (Infusion of Shadow)

Gain 1 initiative when you evade 10 second icd. (Patience)

When a thief reaches 25% life they evade attacks for 3 seconds. (Last Refuge)

While out of stealth all evasive skills provide 1 second longer. (Meld with Shadows)

When revealed steal immobilizes for 2 seconds and blinds for 3 gives temporary access to stealth attack. (Hidden Thief)

When thief stealth they get 9 stacks of might for 20 seconds. (Hidden Assassin)

When revealed dodging provides super speed for 2 seconds 15 second icd.(Fleet Shadow)

When revealed 315 precision added to self ie 15% crit chance (Hidden Killer)

Here is the thing. Despite how it may seem only warrior, ele, and engineer can achieve permanent swiftness without gearing a very particular way and even then they do have to invest a little in boon duration. Ranger can keep it up with bird pets and warhorn but it requires a target. Thief can but you have to kill mobs randomly and set up for it. In any case not every class gets permanent swiftness. All classes have access to travelers rune and runes of speed.

Achieving permanent swiftness is not the same as strong mobility ooc. If you really want to just get around the map more quickly you are stuck in the guardian boat. Either invest in runes like air and cast mirror and temporal curtain to achieve permanent swiftness. Or simply buy travelers rune and be a little slower but requires no weapon specific options or utilities.

the reason temporal curtain doesn’t stack is that given the unlimited use ie as many players that walk through it while its active get swiftness it would make it possible to perma speed buff a zerg with little to no effort (though this happens already). It is an issue if balance and not a major issue at that if they buffed I doubt there would be complaints at the same time there isn’t much of an issue here given the other runspeed options.

you know why I hate these threads? It isn’t because players want more stealth counter play or anything like that. The main reason is that most of the ides have no scope and I am sorry to offend but many of the ideas are just dumb.

If you up reveal in WvW you up it in PvE. Now last time they did they they realized their blunder as the essentially nerfed thiefs sustained DPS in PvE. Your idea would mean that if a theif stealths phases through you and pops BS within a second they could re enter stealth in a second and do it again. Base reveal is 3 seconds. So essentially it would be a buff to anyone that spikes. It would be a nerf to any thief in a dungeon who might Shadow refuge rez finding themselves unable to stealth for 15 seconds.

I am sure you have so 80 thief you either never play or just leveled but take the time
to think before you post.

I will say this again until it gets through the many hard head here. WvW meta is zerging. Any thief nerf to stealth is in reference to roaming. Be mindful of scope 14 traits, 10 weapon skills, 3 utility skills, and 2 stolen skills have stealth interaction.

Lets cut the bs for a minute. PU mesmer while strong has kittenty chase. Spike only really happens in the condi version with confusion. Phant spike is somewhat predictable early in a fight but once the phantasms get out it really is best to run. Pu builds generally use a torch so you only have to deal with one heavy hitting phantasm at a time. The only phantasm truly a pain to kill is the swordsman for melee class. The phantasm literally puts 240 units of distance between you and it at all times.

The only reason some player complain is that they hate stealth and that they like to duel. WvW meta is about taking keep and camps. Zerging is the meta and PU is crappy in a zerg. Roaming builds are designed to roam that means easy disengages. That means if you want to roam and/or duel build for it. Don’t expect your zerg build to keep up with a roaming build in a zerg that roaming build will not keep up with you. It really is as simple as that.

The main issue with condi builds isn’t that they are too strong in zerg (it is true they are UP there due to so many building to cleanse). The main issue isn’t that they are too strong in roaming (while engi is a good roamer necro is bait for anything more than 3 people).

The main issue are 1 on 1 and range. Condi are a nightmare for so many classes it isn’t funny in a duel. However if we get realistic about it one guardian built to handle conditions will have the capability to handle condis for the group. the game is not balanced around 1 on 1 so there is that too.

So in reality the real issue is that condi builds can build defensive but spike damage at range. That is really all there is to it. Condi builds do not require gap closing.

However, what condi builds are actually good at gap closing? Condi necro is bad at is, as is pu mesmer ,P/D thief, engineer, and ele. Ranger S/W + SB or Axe can gap close but due to limited range and tricky sword mechanics won’t be able to vs any roamer build. The only class that can gap close and keep up the condi damage is none other than warrior running a sword.

Truth is as far as WvW goes where you can get -40% condition duration food, where the meta is zerging, an the gear creep is noticeable on both sides I think conditions are likely balanced.

Liza.2758:

Thieve can’t perm stealth in Spvp.

They need to match the stealth duration on Thieve to Spvp. It’s really bullkitten in WvW.

when i duel thieve in OS. It turns into dumb long match while it’s another story in Spvp

First off thief in spvp doesn’t “perm stealth” (we can not do that anyway anywhere) because being stealth does not let you contest a point. On top of that any good thief in Spvp is going to focus in killing you. In WvW roaming no matter the class is based on being fast enough to evade a zerg and the capability to disengage combat at will.

One last thing good player do not duel in WvW. I don’t give care about the spot behind the camp. good players either focus down enemy players or move from objective to objective flipping. That duel me BS is just that a joke.

Once again if you want stealth nerfed ask anet to rework the entire thief traits linked to stealth and SA trait line. Let me tell you that whatever they do will lead to one of 2 things. Either a useless class with high migration to warrior and mesmer (not even calling them out it is just the truth) or thief receiving the type of buff that gives us evades for days and way better burst damage.

Let me break it to you. If it does happen it will either just break the class and be a hit to anet solely for the sake of WvW roaming where the meta is zerging (go figure). Or they will rework the class to be the best evasive class in the game with better burst, mobility, and sustained healing. In any case no class should be a free kill.

What are you arguing about again which weapon set takes more skill right? Lets be honest the outside world sees thief as the spamming, blinding, stealth abusing class. PW hasn’t been seriously kittened about in over a year. Even now the complaints we see in the spvp forums are centered around trickery and not the weapons themselves.

Whether D/P or S/P requires more skills in spvp is a moot point. You are a thief in spvp if your not in the hot joins your likely a decent player if your sticking with it. Can both builds be troll worthy? Sure all of our builds can because we can spam skills and combos. Fact is a good thief in spvp isn’t really going to rely on stealth (cant contest a point) or stun locking (not even possible for us). they aren’t reliable enough in that game mode. You pick your spot while sustaining DPS with SB in both builds. That is about it.

Instead of having a kitten measuring contest over who is the better players and jabbing at thief builds you do not play. Try and be civil not be kittens and help players understand the build whether you play S/P or D/P you are trickery thief.

shocking.3269:

Okay. Then why are my dagger traits in the "condition"line and not my "Crit"trait line?

Personally I prefer physical burst, so I’ll probably plum for that.

How then can I adapt the above build to do that?

Because it doesn’t matter. The stat bonus is nice but truth is stats are pretty much jumbled into lines that don’t use them. That being said that build probably wont work.

Poison has weak damage and it a condition mostly used to cover and reduce healing. It really isn’t something you invest in that heavily.

As said before you might as well invest in one or the other (power or condition). You have a decent amount of options. Generally speaking for stealth condi builds you would go P/D. You can roam well and there many options in build. If you truly want to roam you best option in general is the 0 30 30 10 0 D/P roamer. Easy stealth strong capability to keep on target and black powder will make soloing camps easy. You’ll have relatively strong burst and good defense. If you do not play it like a troll (solely focusing on 5 and 2 for stealth) and play it to kill players (timing your head shot and using shadow shot to pressure) you’ll likely find yourself a highly successful roamer.

In any case you have quite a few options. You do not have to play a cookie cutter build but before you invest in gear try a build out and see if your comfortable with the play style.

And what I mean by that is condi management outside of shadow arts needs a boost. Pain Response and sword #2 (Infiltrator’s Strike -> Infiltrator’s Return) is just too costly and are just not effective enough. Many thieves not playing heavy stealth are forced into lyssa runes for this reason. Many builds are getting eaten by passive application give us stronger passive removal to compensate so e aren’t forced into stealth.

AskTheDust.7384:

Could you please post your build? Really inspiring video

To me it looks like 0 0 30 20 20 or 0 0 30 15 25

Running with blind, condi clear, and healing on/while in stealth. Not sure what out of acrobatics. Pretty sure I saw bountiful theft and thrill of the crime from trickery.

Snorcha.7586:

target management when fighting a stealth based classed is exceptionally annoying and quite frankly bad. They need to allow your target to stay locked on but hide it when they go stealthed.

I agree with this but likely (listen carefully as I am actually in favor of this) they don’t allow this because of mesmer stealth. While it is easy to spot the real player vs the clone it isn’t supposed to be a tab target after they stealth. Likely this was implemented to keep the clones relevant even after the stealth ended. This seems reasonable none the less. It is not difficult to re target a thief but for many players the shock value of not have the target already in sight as the pop out of stealth is an issue.

All this being said in a 1v1 fight it won’t make as much difference. In a group fight it could be useful.

I have been playing on BG since were were ranked number 4 before the server locks and before the announcement of them. You can solo roam on just about any class (save necro) even on BG as tier one. The reality is that situational awareness will pay you back in dividends vs actively engaging other solo roamers and trying to “duel” every chance you get. Skip the skirmish hit the objective. It really is that simple. Most zergs work like karma trains. They hit all the big targets til the map is all their color and then they move on. there are 4 maps despite the immense amount of coverage in T1 maps do empty out and you can roam in piece for long periods of time.

Mightymealworm.8409:

TheGuy.3568:

Grok Krog.9581:

If the passive is to be nerfed then the active must be buffed.

In the case of HS this is simply the truth. The issue is many players lobbying for a nerf do not understand that and many warriors feel that any nerf is unfair. This has been asked for from before the signet was buffed.

I would love some interesting mechanic on using HS, as it would sync well with traits/runes on its super low cool down. There definitely needs to be some reason to use it, and less reason to sit on it. Strong passive play is bad for all classes. 400 HP per second is simply too high for almost no investment. If your opponent deals 1.2k damage per second its like permanent protection. Maybe take passive back to 200 and let active heal for normal amount plus heal 20% damage for the next 5 seconds like the new guardian heal? Or to make it different 10% over 10 seconds.

IMHO 200 hps is too low. The active heal would have to be a real heal something that could actually save you if used correctly. The heal need not mimic what another class has entirely. I do not know what it should be I do know they would need to up the active heal scaling (to at least .85 healing power) and have the base heal between 5-6k while lowering the passive healing.

If I were to add an effect I would likely have the skill reduce the current cool down of all signets by 25%. It might open the door for more signet heavy builds that use active play. I honestly do not know what would work but I do know over nerfing it would be too much of a blow to the class.

KeyOrion.9506:

TheGuy.3568:

KeyOrion.9506:

All I’m reading in every single post is Stealth this and stealth that. And if that’s all a thief is good for, then your good for nothing else.

In general group play beside being an excellent partner to those who drop combo fields this is rather close to the truth. Speaking honestly how is this our fault? That is the design of the class. Everything else is general DPS (A role fulfilled by any class). I think many thieves at this point are rolling with the punches and trying to keep what they invested in relevant vs quitting.

You see right there, “excellent partner”. They’re bringing something to the group, I can understand that. But if the only build is going to be “you perma-stealthed, if not GTFO”, then that’s not OP. That’s everyone expecting only ONE type of play from the thief, and if the only thing everyone is going to run, then yah, your going to get nerfed. Expect it. It’s not an IF, it’s a WHEN.

Let’s use for an example a pretend World Event. We’ll call this event, Wild Magic. This particular wild magic, on a daily basis will lock one, or more skills from your bar, and it’s Skill specific.

What do you have besides Perma-Stealth, to deal with that? All I’m going to see is a bunch of kittening and complaining that the person in question couldn’t keep fully stealthed, and didn’t have any other build/choices to fall back on.

What does a thief fall back on, when it can’t perma-stealth? Variety is the spice of life. What variety do you have, that would focus attention onto something…different.

Fantastical scenarios about thing not in the game does not a point make. Being able to spam a combo field is not something on our class can do (see: Blast Finisher). In PvE a generic DPS build for S/P to S/D or P/P is fine. Perma stealth is not existent in PvE due the fact your out of it almost instantaneously if you are maximizing DPS. There is never a reason to sit in it during a normal fight save positioning. D/D is far superior to D/P because outside certain fractals the only personal defense you need is dodging.

I never understand theses post. In 3 sentences or less wth are you asking for or about? What point are you trying to make?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

My objection to your proposals is actually a simple one. It would be a waist of resources to actively change the play of class this much simply for one type of build which has little relevance in the game type. The fact that thief is supposed to be as mobile and as slippery as it is would likely lead to design that would still leave thief as a class easily capable of breaking off combat.
.

Your objection to a few changes, such as removing the leap from Heartseeker – would this REALLY change the WHOLE class? If so, what does that say about that skill and how easily it can be combo with other skills to have perma access to stealth outside of combat and easy access every 4 seconds to stealth inside combat.

Sure, they could go through all of the class and change everything, or they could start small. A tweak here, a tweak there.

Would removing ONE leap finisher from a skill be THAT bad that it breaks the whole entire class?

It would break D/P as a weapon set giving not access to stealth within the set with no access to back stab. It would not break the class but would break any power build built around it. As D/P can not be build for condition damage it wouldn’t simply be come an irrelevant weapon set. A dagger main hand set (excluding condi DB) without access to backstab is just a senseless idea.

I think our discussion can stop here. Maybe someone hacked your account, it was sold, or you have decided to simply troll. In any case it is not an accusation I simply do not see the point in discussion like this. Your opinions are your own and whatever they are rooted in they are not rooted in logic. I have made a point to stop this type of back and forth lately if it isn’t producing and sort of meaningful discussion.

KeyOrion.9506:

All I’m reading in every single post is Stealth this and stealth that. And if that’s all a thief is good for, then your good for nothing else.

In general group play beside being an excellent partner to those who drop combo fields this is rather close to the truth. Speaking honestly how is this our fault? That is the design of the class. Everything else is general DPS (A role fulfilled by any class). I think many thieves at this point are rolling with the punches and trying to keep what they invested in relevant vs quitting.

Grok Krog.9581:

If the passive is to be nerfed then the active must be buffed.

In the case of HS this is simply the truth. The issue is many players lobbying for a nerf do not understand that and many warriors feel that any nerf is unfair. This has been asked for from before the signet was buffed.

Maugetarr.6823:

To answer the questions so this topic isn’t entirely derailed.

I appreciate this. I was wondering what the thief player pop was thinking. While the sample size will obviously be small (and not necessarily indicative of the full pops sentiment) you can consider it me indulging in my own curiosity. So I do appreciate the responses to the questions.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

-SNIP-

And like i said, would it be hard? Of course, Is it impossible? No. It is like that. Anet COULD spend time tweaking and changing the classes but you don’t have to worry i mean with all the useless content updates and everything for PvE it will take them A LONG time to get around to WvW, Maybe, just maybe after they release the New WvW map they might get around to doing something.

Yeah because as we know WvW is simply not played at all, it would be like making changes with S/TPvP as the core, i mean EVERYONE plays that – Oh wait, they don’t and yet the balancing still comes with that dead end mode that hardly anyone plays in mind.

It could also have a POSITIVE effect on PvE, making it more fun and more of a challenge, rather than just stealthing past everything all the time.

You are acting as if i want the whole class changed, they would STILL have access to stealth, they would STILL be able to use stealth they just wouldn’t be able to jump in it every 4 seconds like they can now.

I do not do the sarcasm thing and this discussion has very little is nothing to do with Spvp and everything to do with WvW. Your feelings on content updates and the state of PvE based on content means nothing to me and is irrelevant in this discussion. My objection to your proposals is actually a simple one. It would be a waist of resources to actively change the play of class this much simply for one type of build which has little relevance in the game type. The fact that thief is supposed to be as mobile and as slippery as it is would likely lead to design that would still leave thief as a class easily capable of breaking off combat.

As far as PvE goes what you suggest is that most dungeon content is stealth past. You also suggest that thief’s greatest contribution in PvE (the capability to skip some content) be removed. You suggest this would have positive effect of thief in PvE by making the game more challenging for this class and removing its benefit to a team (especially in fractals). To my knowledge you do not play thief. I would like to know how revamping stealth would make PvE more fun?

So far you have suggested longer reveal times (tried and failed) and increased base vitality and toughness be given for it (no mention of DPS, utility traits, etc). I find it hard to understand your logic because it seems short sighted and unrealistic.

“You are acting as if i want the whole class changed”

I can only read, and respond to what your say. What you have suggested so far would indicate this is what you want.

It seems to me many threads are dedicated to mobility and stealth and how these things are ruining WvW. Many complaints centered around the capability of some classes to break off combat vs multiple enemies and essentially escape. Most complaints are levied against thief, warrior, and mesmer.

In general most big targets (towers,keeps) require many players to take quickly and safely. Softer targets (Dolyaks, Sentries, and to a lesser extent camps) are generally taken by roamers but are often taken by zergs as well. In order for many players to avoid such roaming zergs the employ tactics such as mobility and stealth to avoid combat with a force much bigger than there own. The rub is that when roaming many players use these same tactics to avoid forces equal to or not much bigger than their own to the chagrin of some players.

There are generally clear differences between builds built for zerg and builds built for roaming. In generally builds build or zerging have strong access to AoE and have the capability to either melee with strong defenses or DPS from range behind or toward the middle of the zerg. Player who build for roaming. Usually either have some some of strong access to mobility (swiftness or +25% speed), Movement skills (leaps, teleports, charges) and stealth and/or have strong access to snaring while on the run (glue bomb being a decent example). Most of these builds lack the AOE of zerging builds and conversely most zerging builds lack the mobility of roaming builds.

My questions are should players be forced to coalesce in order to be effective in areas of WvW? Should all fights no matter how outnumbered it becomes be fights of attrition?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

“Of course, if Thief got some changes and fixes to Stealth they would need some adjustments to defense, Vit and Toughness would need to be adjusted.”

@ArmageddonAsh for someone who has been playing longer than me your scope is very limited. If you touch stealth every trait related to it every attack would have to be adjusted.

Of course this wouldn’t be some sort of instant one patch sort of change, but it CAN be done. It is just if Anet wants to spend time on all the classes.

They could very well do it in a way where they focus on ONE class per an update until all of them are done to adjust everything, fix bugs and everything. Like i said it would not be a sort, few changes boon and its done, it would take time – that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be possible…

You seem not to understand what I mean by scope. To change the way initiative regenerated from .75 to 1 per second 5 traits needed to be adjusted and the change affected each and every build. For stealth a total of 14 traits would have to be adjusted (or simply removed and replaced), 10 weapon skills, 3 utility skills, and 2 stolen skills. In these changes they would have to revamp 3 primary form of play (including our main direct damage DPS builds and condi damage build), 1 secondary, and an entire trait line and rework all damage numbers and mobility because thief by design is supposed to be the slipperiest class.

They would have to devote months of work for what? 1 roaming build in a game type where the meta is centered around large group play. By design thief would still be slippery and would still be the hardest class to catch. This was intended. It is literally by design. The devs have repeatedly said that thief should be the fastest class. To date it is not. Even with that the capability to break off a fight while roaming is an option in all roaming builds save necro who are forced into attrition. What you are proposing would most likely lead to the biggest buff to thief and will still have thief as it the most mobile an elusive class.

And what would be the only reason for such major changes? Roaming in WvW. Form a logical stand point and resource management it simply does not make sense.

Best Classes

Roaming #1: Thief
Why? Stealth (not really) Z axis mobility with SB and terrain knowledge makes you ultra mobile. Ink shot is still a good skill for water travel especially while in combat. You can build with enough AoE/Cleave to down a camp in a minute or less.

Roaming #2: Mesmer
Why? Ultra high in combat mobility access to stealth (a plus but not what makes it so good). AoE strong enough with an GS or shatter build to take out a camp quickly. Some Z axis movement and multiple builds good for dealing with other roamer.

Roaming #3: Warrior
Why? High mobility and enough active defense to avoid snaring (if used correctly). Movement skills good enough to out run most classes and dueling skills strong enough to deal with most roaming specs on other classes. The best “all round” class in the game. Enough DPS to drop a camp in under a minute.

Team Fight/Small group

Best class: All of them
Why? Team work. In a nutshell if you are all in TS and coordinating a small fight then likely despite class choice you will mesh together. That sort of team work will not stop a zerg but will let you breeze through many unorganized team fights by simply having better communication.

Best Zerg

Zerger #1: Guardian
Why? Can be build with the best group support in the game. Retal is deadly (when applied to surrounding players) vs spamable AoE (like nades). Condi management can make some condi specs highly ineffective vs a group. Strong survivability in Zerg environment. Best stability and other boon provider to a group of players.

Zerger #2: Warrior
Why? AoE CC and strong uptime. Hammer is still one of the strongest weapon in a zerg. Warrior can be build to be a front line “meat shield” often taking the brunt of the damage all the while supporting through CC and pressure. Battle Standard can be a game changer when used correctly i na losing situation (not always though).

Zerger #3: Mesmer
Why? Most utility. Veil, Portal, Time warp. While it may not seem like much mesmer are the back bone support while roaming allowing siege weapons to move quickly across the filed as well as supplies. A mesmer has more potential to change the course of a zerg fight than just about any other class. Memsers are invaluable tools to many commanders. Despite the pleas for veil ,and other such skills being annoying it’s true that every time a keep is taken there must be a sweep for mesmers. Literally as a class their utility doesn’t compare to any other class.

Best class overall: Warrior.
Why? It can be built multiple ways that work in multiple roles.

pulupulu.9730:

What’s the definition of survive? Like ele is currently with spvp?

More like ele post the DD nerfs before fresh air entered the meta.

I really I am asking this as a real question. I am not saying every nerf recently or formerly was unfair or unjust. What I am asking the current thief pop (try to put your fervent emotion aside please) is if the class were nerfed further do you think it could survive.

What do I mean by survive? Well, I mean would many players abandon the class ala ele post big DD nerfs. Or, would they stay the course and stick with it (which many eles did).

To ask it more directly and detailed.

1). If your current build were nerfed would you leave the class?

2). How much of a nerf would it have to be (scaling slightly reduce effectiveness to completely break the build)?

3).Would it matter if the nerf was Spvp only, or WvW only?

4). Would it matter if the nerf can with a buff?

5). What type of nerf would most likely get you to leave the class ie stealth, evasion, burst dps, sustained dps, condi damage, etc.?

Answering by people who generally main or play thief heavily would be great. I would additionally love it if this doesn’t get flamed. The only community to ask this type of question is the community that plays the class.

Thank you in advance.

Lumines.3916:

TheGuy.3568:

Romek.4201:

i could understand pvp and wvw

but pve? how does balance matter in pve?

So basically your saying every time Anet randomly changes builds for PvE with no warning or reasoning it is fine. Despite the vast majority of the pop are PvE players who have complained about this repeatedly for a year.

Some players build their gear around there build. In Spvp this is a light investment but in PvE this is months and hundreds of gold in many cases. When balance changes are instituted that have nothing to do with PvE and builds become obsolete along with their gear it is a much heavier burden for the PvE player than any other.

PvE balancing generally has to do with usefulness to the party in respect to DPS. PvE balancing rarely happens in PvE and meta changes in PvE are general spawned by meta changes in Spvp.

Isn’t the “meta” for PvE just full zerks? Buffs and nerfs won’t change that frankly. Condi specs have no place in PvE and dungeons anyway due to plaguing issues since launch. Nowadays, you’re shunned and laughed at if you even try and run something other than kitten dps, it’s sad really and if anything reflects a deeper issue with dungeon design. Until they change that and people are actually encouraged to gear out from zerkers, you don’t have an argument here. I know not everyone runs full zerks, but you’re being overly dramatic if each balance patch means having to replace a full set of gear, that frankly doesn’t happen.

If someone’s spec was nerfed in WvW and had to rebuy gear for that, you have an argument there, but not PvE. Lastly, a lot of nerfs and changes to skills are now only in effect in sPvP and have no relations to PvE or WvW anyway (outside of traits getting moved around).

That holds the assumption that most players play PvE in full zerker. That the runes they buy and they way they perfectly balance their stats simply do not matter. If that were the case you could say despite the fact you like a build and the way it played then it is fine if we nerf it or change it simply because we needed tot balance something in Spvp. Your basically saying the largest pop in the game fundamentally has no right to separate balance. Now as an spvp player you can say this comfortably but what your really saying is despite the fact that it won;t effect you (balance patches will still be there for Spvp) the concern of the PvE players is not a concern at all. The build you run the gear none of this matters. Just run zerker and what ever build is the current in? It isn’t about drama but fairness.

Let me pose a question to you. If they nerfed a build in Spvp for the sake of PvE would you accept it?

Last but not least

“Lastly, a lot of nerfs and changes to skills are now only in effect in sPvP and have no relations to PvE or WvW anyway (outside of traits getting moved around). "

Really? For example was the continual nerf to S/D thief in PvE was solely due to PvE balancing and not Spvp? Moving traits is changing builds it really is that simple.

Are you really saying PvE players should have no say in the balance of their part of the game?

Romek.4201:

but i guess you are in wrong forum for this^^

Why? Widespread trait, skills, and class change are pretty much decided in this forum and in this forum alone.

Kagamiku.9731:

Brush up on your class knowledge. Save yourself is ironically called “Kill Yourself” by many guardians consequently because the conditions you draw to you will generally kill you in group play. It is not an invul state and in PvP simply open the door for corrupt boons. You can better mange conditions for your party with consecrations and the virtues line as it is.

I disagree. I use it often to great success. And if you’re a bunker guardian your’e essentially going to receive 10 seconds of all boons at no cost. Because you’re likely to be the only one defending the point.

While there is a possibility for that you did compare the skill to a physical damage invul state (which it is not). You never specified the game mode (though that doesn’t really matter). the part about getting those boons corrupted is simply the truth. It is a fact you can better manage conditions with the virtue line. Many guardians really do call it “Kill yourself”. I do not see what you are disagreeing with and it seems you missed the rest of my post.

As for the no cost. There is an opportunity cost of running that skill (like any other). It really does open the door to get condi spammed (by pulling condis or getting corrupted). It has a lengthy CD even running superior aria.

Edit:

hes right, the Majority of all Warrior skills are high telegraphed easy to dodge, easy to predict, while other professions enjoy instant casting skills and can abuse evades/teleports/stealth to ridicules levels, a skilled player should never lose to a warrior, a skilled warrior have to spent some time faking bursts to make the opponent waste evades/teleports before bursting him down.

There is some truth to this. Most of the skills are highly telegraphed. That being said it isn’t true that most warriors get burst down. Most thief builds can’t close the gap on your basic Hammer warrior simply due to the fact they don’t have the capability to continue dps all the time and keep the gap closed. While avoiding some of the stuns if completely possible avoiding all of them vs an experienced warrior is highly unlikely. Generally a match up vs the stealth/evade/teleport abusing thief (pot kettle black) will either end with the thief effectively disengaging or the warrior doing the same.

Back in the days when S/D had a stun breaker and then nerfed to an instant teleport sure. Now not a chance. A thief doesn’t have enough dodging or stability to keep up dps and not die themselves. Not really worth complaining over (for the thief) as the option to disengage is still mostly there.

Docherty.8372:

TheGuy.3568:

If your complaint is about the stealth you cna simply interrupt the HS.

So long as you scrubbed the Blind (BP does that… don’t ya know?), or your interrupts, if they’re fast enough (very rare, if you even have any even!), aren’t on cooldown… sure, I run S/P – I got interrupts to spare, but I’m a Thief, and a unique snowflake who gets to spam them as much as he likes.

So many counter-Thief techniques do somewhat seem to rely on the Thief being functionally brain-dead.

But, like I tell new Thieves – bait the rolls, dodge the interrupts – they can’t keep it up forever – they’re playing with cooldowns, you’re not. It’s not rocket-surgery, you still need basic dueling skills to win against switched-on players.

First off if you are talking about the initial stealth then it doesn’t matter. If you are talking D/P vs D/P then that blind doesn’t matter either (you seem to be a thief figure it out yourself). I really really hate cherry pickers.

The only thieves who spam are the crappy ones we all know that. the rest of us manage our initiative so no we don’t spam until it hits.

What i quoted was about D/P vs D/P a topic you brought up. I never mentioned other classes. If your only reason for posting is to bicker about D/P perhaps you should play it and understand how a good D/P user counter the basic BP →2. In any case neither has a way to keep the other fully engaged if the run last refuge (as it should be with a roaming build).

Ok a few things. If it is a dungeon non speed run you know you can pretty much run whatever you like and get away with it. If you are dying often and you aren’t getting the hang of thief just run the dungeon on a class you are more comfortable with to learn it. While it may seem cool the truth is you end up dying having others rez you and it is a pain in the kitten for those around you. Blind fields wont help on most boss fights. you Shouldn’t be dying to most trash as it is. You can run DD with some zerk and valk. Try to get above the one shot range with your hp (think 14k). Run defensive stats until you get used to full zerker but full zerker thief is super squishy and you will not top DPS without massive group support in the form of might stacks and vulnerability. You wont lose much DPS running cavalier or Valk with a trait like hidden killer.

If you still have issues jump on your warrior ( I am not even joking). The main point of a dungeon is to get the loot and get out. You have nothing to prove.

Lock of melee combat assist. Many attack can be avoided by simply walking through a mob (no need to dodge).

Accept the fact that some fights you’ll just have to Short bow through. There are quite a few ranged fights where you will have to just Pew pew it out on PP or SB.

One last thing. For the rest of your play time in this game no matter what class you play try not to get hit. There is no way in hell you’ll learn attack patterns just face tanking. Even if you are on warrior you should not be able to do this. Go to lost shore and see if the champ risen abom is up (spawns after plinx). If he is solo him in melee. If you get hit he gets a stack, and his attacks come in harder and faster. This is a great practice tool for learning to read attack patterns. You may think I am bullkittenting but I am giving some honest advice.

PvE no matter the class is basically learn to dodge, time your evades, and position. Blinds in most dungeons will not help you.

Docherty.8372:

You guys ever played D/P vs D/P? Yeah… don’t bother, it is quite literally pointless – might as well flip a coin – at least there’s some hope of resolution.

Well it depends. If one player is better than the other unless shadow refuge is dropped generally you headshot the other thief once you see him go for HS stopping his stealth. While a resolution maybe hard if both stayed engaged the better one will win.

Generally speaking like all roaming build the point is to stay on the move and contest objectives quickly and efficiently. this means disengaging from long fights like D/P vs D/P.

If your complaint is about the stealth you cna simply interrupt the HS. If your complaint is about the mobility well that has less to do with DP and more to do with thief by design.

Perma stealthing DP has no purpose and can not be done without using log ultlies. Most DP thieves now a days do not jump through BP multiple times (too easy to counter and pointless) and if you want to run SB and knowledge of terrain are exceedingly more useful.

Angilos.4907:

Time played, number of classes leveled to 80, where you queue and how many dungeon runs you do a day doesn’t mean much if you can’t learn from your mistakes.

Well the more classes you play the broader your knowledge of builds and how to counter them. That old advice of go out and play it for yourself is still some of the best advice out there. People who are die hard to one class are admirable but often say thing about a class that aren’t true. this is simply because they do not know anything about any class other then the one they are playing.

Dungeons and pvp balance are not a shared knowledge. You go out and PvP as the class you hate. It may be hard at first and generally most players who tell you to do this will expect that you will fail with the meta build and won’t complain about it anymore. Generally speaking the reason players fail with meta builds at first is simply because they do not know the build. Play it for a few weeks and you’ll see where it’s pluses and minuses are.

Warrior is not OP. The class is on the teetering point any many warriors fear that is certain things are nerfed the class will fall apart. Truth is that could happen. Right now the only real nerf/change that should happen is the one to healing signet. Even if they did nerf it the active would need to be buffed to compensate.

Threads like this are traps to proclaim how unbroken the class is and argue with people who disagree. When reality kicks in and emotions aren’t rampant it really isn’t hard to see whats broken and what isn’t. Stances, banners, hammer, longbow are being used as smoke and mirrors to hide what is really wrong healing signet. If those things get nerfed to heavily when/if healing signets ever gets touched the class will be kitten again.

Don’t discount playing more than one class you view gets broader.