Guild Wars 2

@connieboy.9840 & Kagamiku.9731

I had a longer post, but I plan to keep this shorter (and it is).

Stability is relatively balanced cross class but no cross build ie it is in weird places for some builds that just do not fit in the meta. In group play it is very balanced with many ways to share it among others. Balanced stance is fine as is.

Brush up on your class knowledge. Save yourself is ironically called “Kill Yourself” by many guardians consequently because the conditions you draw to you will generally kill you in group play. It is not an invul state and in PvP simply open the door for corrupt boons. You can better mange conditions for your party with consecrations and the virtues line as it is.

Invulnerability is not the same as damage immunity. Comparing skills cross class is generally a trap but in the case it isn’t so tricky. Mist form is full invulnerability except for the conditions already on you. Endure pain is damage immunity and you can still be CCed and still receive conditions damage (those on you and those incoming).

In terms of pure DPS builds ele is king with LH. In terms of burst in PvP while squishy as hell S/D fresh air is still a king. 0 0 10 30 30 and 0 0 20 20 30 are still strong builds where your utilities are defensive and you can get decent DPS out. Cantrips have been good for a long time and fulfill the role you suggest but you do not have to take them. Like many classes (mesmer with decoy and blink, Warrior with stances, thief with blinding powder, shadow step, and shadow refuge, etc.) you carry defensive utilities into a PvP to supplement your defense. Warriors could make the same arguments for stances given the current Spvp and WvW meta. Signet warriors are far from rampant and far from useful. Same with mantra mesmer, signet guardian, and other builds. Some utilities out shine the others this happens cross class.

As far as ele and fun to play. I mained DD ele when I first started the game I felt there was nothing wrong with it at the time and even defended it. However, it was nerfed into the ground. I played more classes and after playing D/P thief for quite a while at least 9 months ago I realized what an OP build looks like ( I stopped playing it long ago until recently). DD ele was OP. The more classes you play the easier it is to see what is insanely OP and what isn’t. It is subject to your personal point of view but I can tell you this. Warrior is it is right now is not far off from the old DD ele. That being said instead of advocating to nerf my former main into the ground I say just nerf the minimal and leave the rest alone.

HS + AH are simply too strong in terms of sustained given such low healing power investments. The math simply needs to be reworked. RtL should be reverted to it’s old form as mobility skills have been added to every class save necro (which should have one for power builds). FGS will still give you an out in a fight so there is that.

It really isn’t about class x vs class z it is about the basics. As it is warrior has too much sustained healing in damage builds. Poison is too hard to keep up and access to limited for some classes. Back when they nerfed healing while in Mist form the devs said healing skills need to have a chance to be interrupted as it is HS simply does not provide that chance. The passive is to strong and the active is garbage.

Romek.4201:

i could understand pvp and wvw

but pve? how does balance matter in pve?

So basically your saying every time Anet randomly changes builds for PvE with no warning or reasoning it is fine. Despite the vast majority of the pop are PvE players who have complained about this repeatedly for a year.

Some players build their gear around there build. In Spvp this is a light investment but in PvE this is months and hundreds of gold in many cases. When balance changes are instituted that have nothing to do with PvE and builds become obsolete along with their gear it is a much heavier burden for the PvE player than any other.

PvE balancing generally has to do with usefulness to the party in respect to DPS. PvE balancing rarely happens in PvE and meta changes in PvE are general spawned by meta changes in Spvp.

the only real issue is passive healing with both healing signet and adrenal health. Once you figure out how to reduce those you can address other notable complaints like (stances), but in truth once you reevaluate the math on those 2 I doubt there would be a reason to touch the class any more than that.

RTL should not have bee nerfed in the first place. Mobility is actually pretty strong cross class save necro.

going to try to keep this short. I think the balance patches should be entirely separate. Even though Anet does split some skill effectiveness between Spvp and PvE in general when they move traits and redefine builds they do this across the board. While Spvp get the brunt of these changes PvE basically get nerfed or buffed (on a class by class basis) for no apparent reason.

I think they should balance the 2 independent of each other. Separate teams separate patches.

P/D thief is what i leveled my thief as back when I started. Truth is you can survive plenty but it has no case and pressure only exist vs classes with low condi removal. D/D swap some of your zerker for valk. It is the only advice you really need.

Honestly it is about figuring out where your comfortable with your DPS and defense. Generally i am fine running near full zerker guardian. The issue is how the class defends itself and how much DPS you are really doing. Speed runs are not the norm so many new players get caught up in the fact that a run says speed so they assume they can’t do it or need to conform. Truth is most runs are not speed runs and are runs formed by casual players for casual players. Getting a slightly slower run in when no one expects you to beat speed records means run what ever you like.

I will say this for the good of everyone run a power build and stay away from healing power. If you are going to go defensive then stick with PVT and phase it out as you get more comfortable you do not have to go full zerker or anything like it. Just note that if you go through paths where you never get lower than half health than it is fine to add more damage to your build.

TheGreatA.4192:

I believe greatsword Rush and maybe Whirlwind needs the same treatment as Elementalist Ride The Lightning, which is to put a higher CD on the skill if it doesn’t land on the enemy. That’s about it.

Well, honestly warrior mobility is fine in general. If you are running Sw/x + GS for roaming that isn’t an issue as mobility is the point. Same with Gs for ranger. The issue arose when they nerfed ele and didn’t revert the nerfs as other mobile builds came into play. Rush is hard to land as it is so this type of nerf would have to come with a pathing fix on top of it and generally would serve no purpose as Sword has better mobility overall.

In all honestly I won’t touch my thief in spvp. It isn’t OP but generally it really isn’t that effective. Given the current balance in Spvp thief isn’t particularity a threat unless the person at the wheel is very good. Stealth will not contest a point and in a game like this where you have PU (not complaining so hold your horses) or any stealth mesmer build that simply does the stealth annoyance better. Even in that case as you enter tourney it just isn’t that useful to play heavy stealth.

Without an organized group burst simply doesn’t not have the place it used to and stealth remains an annoyance rather than a threat. Truth is people trying to play thief are literally resisting the urge to play one of the top meta builds and still get kitten on for doing so. Last time I fought a thief with my thief in the randoms I got called a newb and bad lots of curse words despite the fact I downed him.

The reality of the situation is that thief as it is right now is not in a spot to be nerfed anymore than it already is.

Shrike.3154:

Perma stealth is extremely annoying, and needs to be stopped, there is serious balance issues when 1 toon cant take on 5 and win, class match ups should be even and balance better.

I can understand it being annoying to deal with. However, where did you see a D/P thief take on 5 players and win? the only way this happens is if all 5 players were terrible at their class or upleveled. In most cases a roaming thief like roaming warrior or roaming ele or roaming ranger etc will simply disengage from a group of 5 players. they didn’t win they were just smart enough to realize they can’t win 5 vs 1.

Perma stealth is impossible without utilities that have long CDs and even with them it wont be permanent. During this time a thief can not attack in any etc drop a field (caltrops, and poison field). If you are having issues with D/P name your class and you’ll likely find a rather easy counter that requires you to be aware. If you play ranger your sol outside of Spvp. Most thieves won’t be an easy counter.

Generally when fighting another thief I just drop BP switch to SB and burn them out. As far as getting a one shot combo it depends on the stats the thief you are fighting if the have shadow step and if they saw you coming. Most D/P thieves rely on stealth to the point you shouldn’t have issue because they can’t’t manage their imitative like you. IMHO I think it is just easiest to counter most thieves by taking the fight out of melee.

Personally if your’e roaming D/P + SB just has more utility than D/D. It depends on your playstyle but in many situations /p is just as useful as it gets. D/D has the capability to keep the pressure up vs is slow target but D/P is our best weapon set for staying on target. D/D is a weapon set that lacks in utility. D/P is defensive and offensive simultaneously.

Beating a D/P thief as D/D is really down to how each thief built and how well you know it.

Ledddawe.8964:

how can i get cavalier accessory exotic or ascended ? without laurels ? thx

Temple of Balthazar (when open) from Tactician Deathstrider for 42k karma each.

The main difference is that everybody can get ascended gear (from causal to hardcore) and that you can do it solo (vs raiding). Technically all they have done is added in one new tier of gear and gated it. The disturbing part is that Anet went back on it’s word. This isn’t the grind focused gear grind nor is it a necessary one as the stat increase is minimal and the effect will only truly be felt in fractals. Truth is the part that seems to be the big issue is the promise that their would be nearly no gear grind and the fact we can’t get ascended gear through any means other than crafting or rare drops.

Silentshoes.1805:

TheGuy,

I really don’t see that you improved his analogies, that’s all. He just said that some builds make it more straightforward to win matches, and he will use them. And the win is legitimate.

You raised the idea that some things give an advantage in competitive sports, and that is a problem.

One thing, too: shark suits came from “outside” the game, but were allowed. ArenaNet actually put the “easier” builds in as part of the game design itself. They were not new “enhancements” like a shark suit.

Look I have general rule if you do not read (or simply cherry pick) my post then I can’t have a conversation with you.

“BTw anet provides the technology (ie the fast suit) and sets the rules (Federation Internationale de Natation). Whether you consider it gimping yourself or not is your own perception.”

I will consider our conversation over. I do not wan’t to do the back and forth thing.

Flissy.4093:

Dungeons
Champions
Skillpoints
Daily Completer
Events.

Tell me again how you need to do “not PvE” for your Monthly.

You can get your daily completer done in wvw and events in wvw are probably the quickest while roaming as long as your home world doesn’t own it all.

Well the way i see it is this. Certain classes regardless of power vs condi will drop a lot of condis on you over the course of a fight. It is a given that you should have defense vs this. Thus the stance. That being said for certain power builds that do not drop many conditions on you an generally drop just 2 or 3 (thinking along the lines thief and burst guardian) it feels like an unfair advantage. In truth many classes time their blinds to avoid taking big hits. 8-10 seconds of blind immunity can make it just a fight where either you dodge or die. The other thing is snaring. Many classes simply do not have the capability to keep up with a warrior. I do not mean sprinting. I mean keeping DPS on them unless they pull out a range weapon and in all honestly range weapons are far from equal. Those snares help you land your DPS and hopefully put down the enemy. If not your sol and face getting downed yourself.

On the other side so many classes have so much access to snaring and other conditions how could you possibly exclude them from immunity. Fact is when necro hits spite he drops 6 conditions on you 2 of them being blind and cripple. Vs any class that can spam conditions not only are they ranged primarily but the snaring literally keep you out of melee combat with them. In order to land your DPS you need to unsnared and free to close the gap. Berserker stance allows for this.

My questions are do condi classes get too much spamable snaring? Are there too many options for warriors to beat snaring all together?

Silentshoes.1805:

TheGuy…

What you are really saying is that the winner does not really win “honorably” unless he plays a “hard” class that demands the most twitch, mental calculation, memory of cooldowns of all classes.

Who decides what’s “hard enough” to count? You?

Does everyone have to pass your “test” of whether their class and build is “honorable”?

Go ahead and "giimp"yourself if it feels better to you. Me, I will play what is fun and does not hinder me.

You read a lot more into that then what I said. Sadly you are mistaken.

Edit: Read

On another note given what you said maybe that is how you really feel. Truth is give 2 players the same build and one is likely to be better with it than the other.

BTw anet provides the technology (ie the fast suit) and sets the rules (Federation Internationale de Natation). Whether you consider it gimping yourself or not is your own perception.

Honestly when I was a football player in high school some players would use creatine to bulk up (legal) and others might take a round of steroids (illegal). In either case my perception was that of a non user. If I don’t face you on the line I could care less. Even if I face you on the line how much of that strength comes from you and how much from the drugs? Can you even tell if they are using?

When I was a wrestler they used to have rule for hair that if it was too coarse (like a from etc) you couldn’t wrestle because it gave to a competitive advantage. This is strictly genetics as coarse hair has little to do with your stylist and more to do with your lineage. In either case if you had you how had to get a finger test ( refs would run their fingers through your head). To compete you may be forced to shave or use a full head guard etc. They would do the same for facial hair as well (thus there were many clean shaven wrestlers). Long legs good for sprawling, low center of gravity good for balance, being able to sweat a lot good for staying on weight and being slippery in a match, None of that mattered but the coarseness of your hair meant quite a bit.

What we deem as fair and unfair is all perception.

Read Harrison Bergeron and you might have an inkling of how complex this topic actually is.

As far as what I posted before, the analogies given were incorrect (given the subject matter) so I provided ones more in line with the topic. That was about it.

Divinity.8041:

A win is a win, for the other person to complain about how that win occurred?

Don’t hate the player, hate the game, in this case, I hate GW2.

To anyone complaining about OP classes winning? It is the equivalent of the IRS giving out a $1,000 USD tax rebate to anyone who applies. If you think you are too prideful to take that rebate because of said reason, don’t hate the people who have nicer meals and garbs than you.

Just because you don’t take advantage of the current system and lose, doesn’t make you arrogant or better…it just makes you stupid for failing to adapt to what wins.

It would be like you continuing to produce model T ford cars, out of pride, when a ford fusion is clearly a better, more logical option.

Don’t get on your soapbox and explain to me why my ford fusion is an abomination, and I am using “cheese” just because you choose to not adapt in an ever changing economy and world.

All is vain.

Your analogies are all off. I will give you some that makes more sense.

This is like when “shark skin” ie fast suits were introduced to competitive swimming. Many swimmers opted out but many opted in and world records were shattered due in part to this new technology.

You can compare this to any performance enhancing drug ever used in sports. While it’s legal many players will use it while many will opt out either using no enhancement (unlikely) or using other enhancements deemed “ok” by what ever governing body governs their sport.

In either case this is a problem of competition sport. If your neighbor uses HGH to feel younger in most cases you wont care or know. However if he arm wrestled you for pride or cash you just might care.

Amurond.4590:

TheGuy.3568:

That type of burst does not happen unless the thief is glass or your in kittenty defense gear (less than 3k for most classes).

Less than 3k is kittenty defence gear? That’s ~1940 toughness for med, 2080 for light and and still ~1800 for heavy. By those standards, a large proportion of roamers have kittenty defence gear.

My roaming engineer 2521 armor, my thief 2682, my warrior 2701, my mesmer 2500, the key difference is I know how to spot a thief. Most people who start these threads get burst so hard due to the fact they don not know how to counter someone you can see coming right at you.

@OP If you have a stun breaker then you will not get burst like that you could also invest in Stabilized Armor and Protection Injection Generally speaking you don’t need these. No thief is going to burst you out of no where. The base range on steal is 900 (increased to 1,500 by Long Reach if traited). At 900 you will see the thif long before they get ner you in most cases. Basilisk Venom looks like a little green and black buff under the thief’s name. If you see it you know its coming. If you run bomb kit with shield or rifle you can stealth using smoke bomb and he will have no target. You can also stop drop smoke bomb let him close the gap only to realize he is blinded. If he runs likely you will not catch him unless you have something like rocket boots and elixir x and can get lucky with a juggernaut proc. Additionally in your “Control Options” under “Camera” bind the “Look Behind” key to something close (shift, caps lock, mouse button etc). If you do this there are 2 things it will do. It will allow you to throw nades behind you while you run. It will also allow you to see if anyone is chasing you in the distance.

This is mostly an issue of players not knowing how to deal with burst builds a full year in. It is not like DD wasn’t nerfed repeatedly until you could barely find a thief not running S/D or D/P. truth is players still think while roaming that stunbreakers and active defense are unnecessary. They still think that for some reason because a thief can run it must be OP. Let me break it down for you all. That type of burst does not happen unless the thief is glass or your in kittenty defense gear (less than 3k for most classes). Most players who have been playing for a while carry a stun breaker and avoid that burst chain all together. I has been more than 5 months since i was burst down by a glass thief on any toon I play and the last time I was on warrior (pre buff) taunting 2 thieves who couldn’t catch up to me. Truth is many players simply do not understand how roaming works vs zerging.

As far as breaking combat the only calls that can do it is necromancer. The sad truth is thieves have been nerfed repeatedly and in the zerg vs zerg environment that is T1 you literally need insane mobility (warrior, ranger, fgs ele /d) or stealth (PU mesmer, heavy stealth thief) to roam.

mini.6018:

TheGuy.3568:

BTW 1 last note. Highest DPS guardian in a group does not run meditations.

Why would it?Meditations(on dps builds) are for gap closing and quick burst in pvp scenario only.In pve you don’t need a quick burst and no gap closers since your target is always there.Fury not needes so much in zerk.

But you did good to specify,guardian except full bunker copy paste builds are a real mistery for this community.

Ps: i would also love to see summons changed so they will finally be usable.Their recharge should work like ranger spirits.It’s too lame to have to wait 60 seconds to have it up again,it makes them completely useless.

You should read some of the previous post.

Ok let me explain. Your suggestion is that builds that require more skills should reward players more for pulling them off. As it is full burst S/D ele literally does that and can one shot you. Whether it is thief or not does not matter. Back when bull charge 100B _ quickness was warrior meta any warrior could tell you that if you miss your burst it is over. Thief in Spvp at the time was out of hand now it really isn’t even possible to play a build that reflected the insane DD mug meta. Lets be serious a second. Are DD thieves really bursting players down form no where today? Defenses have been boosted so much since then and damage toned down that it really isn’t all that viable in the current meta. I suspect if you put that build back in the game as it was then it wouldn’t stand a real chance in the current meta.

What you asked for are builds that require more skill bur reward you for it. In that case there really are only 2 ways it can go. More dps or more survivability for good play. Since bunkering doesn’t require all that much likely these builds will go toward more DPS in most cases. You likely end up with unstoppable burst builds or the current meta but only for skilled players ie High dps medium defenses.

Can engi spam like a crazy? Yep. The thing is you really are right about the….. AoE. Honestly a well played engineer is surviving due to watching cool downs and playing exactly like you describe. How are they rewarded for it? More up time. Like I said skilled based builds will only go into 2 direction more dps or more survivability. Not that I don’t thin engineer are out of hand but at the same time real balance is a pipe dream. Making skill based builds will just push the divide further.

Burst builds like S/D (to a lesser extent S/F) ele, engineer SD, and Meditations guard do sort of play the way you describe. While they don’t all have long cds the do all require at least enough skill to actually land your burst.

" Stuns, immob, long chills, etc. can have a huge impact on fights and should be much harder to land than they are." very true. I just do not see them nerfing this given all the condi removal and stability they have been tossing out. It seems they went in a direction and are sticking to it.

Plain truth is most dungeons do not require much in the way of defense. People want to speed through dungeons because they do them often and just want the loot. In causal pugs you can run whatever stats you like (though condi damage is generally a bad idea). As you play more PvE there is a good chance you will run with less and less defense.

Please understand that you do not have to run full zerker to be effective but that as you play you will likely head more in this direction.

Look there is nothing wrong with calling it like it is. the game can not really be balanced. It really isn’t a compliant but after a year of meta shifts I think players are finally starting to realize that balance updates are literally meta shifts. Even if they change the condi/low risk meta some other meta will come into play. Burst→Bunker→AI→Condi→ Low Risk→?

Who really pays for this? PvE players.

Caffynated.5713:

There is a place for passive builds (any ranger, phantasm mesmer, regen warrior) as a starting point for new players. It lets them concentrate on what their enemy is doing and less on managing all of their abilities. These builds should be appreciably weaker than more complex builds played at the skillcap.

Above passive builds should be spammy builds (necro, engi). They require more effort than just logging in and pressing 1, but they still let you get away with not using your abilities in an optimal way.

Then you should have the competitive builds where blowing a cooldown at the wrong time puts you at a big disadvantage, your damaging abilities are devastating skillshots that are either very difficult to land or require setup and there are a lot of cooldowns, boons and other abilities to keep track of. No build quite fits into this catagory yet. Ele is closest if you remove air/arcane instants.

Currently, this basic concept is tipped on its head and its why basically everyone is unhappy.

That sounds a lot like PvE progression from tank builds to straight zerker and team work. that being said no build will likely be that rewarding. The pop for early in did not like the burst meta. Asking for it may seem logical but truth is no one liked it then and likely will not like it now.

If you make the meta like this then new players and no so good players will be over run without much effort by better players. this will happen regardless so there is no need to reward skill other than winning. From pong to street fighter even if all else is equal good players will rise above others.

Technically a well played kit engineer is literally doing exactly what you suggest. The thing is even before a well played engineer will run over some one while managing CDs. Which makes something that is a well orchestrated routine look like spam,

Epic.3950:

TheGuy.3568:

Your “serious discussion” seems to be another angry defense of hammer post.

So you want to know why hammer is OP? In PvE flat out it isn’t. In WvW debatable as you have lots of running room and unless the warrior has a sword they are slower with hammer (but not slower than most classes). Either way the combo cc skills are some what easy to avoid.

In Spvp where you have to stand on a point to contest it, and the warrior who you can not toe to toe has so much sustained healing (HS) he’s like bunker to down, happens to have a a Long bow as well where he can cover the entire point with a fire field that will burn you also happens have an aoe stun that can cover the point as well as strong condi removal (mostly due to the bow) then yes the hammer feels a bit OP.

Hammer really isn’t the issue. It’s all the other things.

then people shouldnt be complaining about hammer, but they do. My defense is on hammers. I welcomed real warriors (obviously not you) to explain their defenses on aspects of the warrior they get hate on for. IE healsig, maceGS and s/s lb builds and so on

look kid I have been playing the game well over a year now and have leveled every class (save Necro) to 80. That real warrior fake warrior bs is just stupid. You write up some angry post defending a weapon no one really gives to kittens about in a forum where the only people who are going to read it are people who play the same class. How bout you put this same post in the spvp forums and see the response you get? You didn’t come here to discuss a thing. You wanted to defend your build and now you have. Move on. You wrote a bait worth post where only players you deem as real warriors can post.

Let me say this clearly. Hammer is hammer and won’t be changed anytime soon so move on.

BTW people kitten about every build you can think of on every class. And they have every right to do this. Just because you heard a complaint doesn’t mean you absolutely need to post.

If you ever really wan’t to discuss build countering your going to need to know more than one class. Your going to need to construct a post that explains how each class counters hammer. Drop the sarcasm and take the time to craft a post that reflects the importance of the topic in your eyes. Given the way you chose to word your Op you got bored and felt like ranting. that isn’t good enough to have a discussion.

Take the time to read, put your emotions aside, and see the big picture.

No need for further discussion our conversation is over.

Prysin.8542:

Thief is a burst profession, but so is warrior. The thing is, what differentiates warrior and thief atm in this sense is…. nothing. If we look away from thieves being able to go invisible.

Read the whole thing but that alone lets me know you really do not know what you are talking about. You didn’t read my post and I do not think you understand how thief is played especially in PvE. If you read the OP he literally complains about this BS pertaining to PvP balance (which we have been nerfed in repeatedly) spilling over to PvE. Your suggestions are the same.

Your “serious discussion” seems to be another angry defense of hammer post.

So you want to know why hammer is OP? In PvE flat out it isn’t. In WvW debatable as you have lots of running room and unless the warrior has a sword they are slower with hammer (but not slower than most classes). Either way the combo cc skills are some what easy to avoid.

In Spvp where you have to stand on a point to contest it, and the warrior who you can not toe to toe has so much sustained healing (HS) he’s like bunker to down, happens to have a a Long bow as well where he can cover the entire point with a fire field that will burn you also happens have an aoe stun that can cover the point as well as strong condi removal (mostly due to the bow) then yes the hammer feels a bit OP.

Hammer really isn’t the issue. It’s all the other things.

Lets gets this completely clear. Big pretty numbers do not equal DPS. A sword guardian is literally going to blow past 100B GS with auto attack. If your axe there is a chance but if the guardian runs anything like 10 30 0 5 25 in a group you won’t really be touching his DPS. That being said the differences are marginal at best. LH ele, DD thief, Phant Mesmer (with 3 phantasmal swordsmen up but it takes time to get rolling /shrug) Guardian, Warrior, etc. The thing is the differences are not insanely wide and in most cases you wont run full zerker built for DPS even if you did you would need group support (might stacks, reflects, etc) to get the most out of it so your not dodging all the time trying to stay alive.

Lets cut the BS right now. Solo due to your might stacks and high base damage your warrior will blow past regular mobs much quicker than just about any class (save thief and guardian) and will down vets the fastest solo. In a group the sword guardian who also happens to have reflect, is managing your groups condis, giving a fire field and giving you blocks also happens to be blowing past your DPS with auto attack.

BTW 1 last note. Highest DPS guardian in a group does not run meditations.

I will say it honestly I think I’m starting to get used to it. Saved me a couple of times in the last few weeks in WvW (though it got me downed many more times in the past year). I still think the trait needs to be reworked but after a year I do not know if it will be.

Interceptor.2653:

^ Not enough Traveler runes for everyone. Besides, it lacks the focus than other rune sets can provide for builds.

True in regards to your second observation but isn’t that the point. You trade the extra DPS or utility of another set for the utility for traveler’s runes. Speaking plainly if you don’t mind running slightly slower than the next guy use another set. If you don’t mind occupying one utility slot for extra movement speed use another set. If you do mind use travelers. No one set is perfect for each and every build. Each set has it’s trade offs.

Demand does beat supply but the price seems to have stabilized.

Prysin.8542:

Personally, speaking from an outside view, i think thieves should get stronger effects, and possibly MORE effects added to the venom. Either through traits, or straight buff.

An indirect buff, which would help loads in making thieves viable is making their Signet of Assassination (correct me if im wrong) apply its +15% damage to a group of players. Increase the CD a bit.
If nothing else, this would open up thieves for speed-runs.

SB should bounce up to 5 times to compensate for the lack of proper AE.

Thieves should get a new off-hand weapon. A mace would not be a bad suggestion. As cut-throats all over the world has always had a thing for bashing peoples head in. If we were to give thieves a better balance between CC and DPS without forcing them into pidgeonholed builds or hybrid setups, they can slowly have their main damage slightly reduced (backstab maxing out at 8k and not 12k).
When you tune down the insane single target DPS, making it just crazy high single target DPS, you get rid of A LOT of whiners and other issues that stand between you, and future buffs/proper balancing.

In speed runs we are already fine our single target DPS in buffed group falls in the top three along with LH ele and and full /s phant mesmer.

A 5 bounce is unlikely (given that it is an auto attack) and at near melee range cluster bomb is strong AoE even in power builds.

Nerfing thief DPS more than it has already been nerfed in the last year would hurt thief more in PvE than anything else. The whiners you speak of have had each skill on the DD set (save death blossom) nerfed either directly or indirectly already. In fact S/P pistol whip is still damage reduced after a full year. We already ate the damage reduction.

CC is nigh useless in PvE due to defiant stacks and even if they did up our CC it wouldn’t match or even compare to warrior (given that it is aoe and relatively easy to spam).

You seem to be under the assumption that thief is not a burst class. As it has been stated before the only way to lower backstab further is literally up our auto attack dps and that won’t happen as auto attack DPS across the board is too high as it is. Lowering our sustained for a small boost to venoms without even adding cleave is just nonsense and would reflect the nerfs we ate in PvE already for the sake of PvP.

Edit

As far as Mace as a cc weapon. Either the initiative cost would have to be insanely large or they would keep it cheap but the stun duration would be low. Either way hard cc & initiative or cc & no cd do not mix.

Prysin.8542:

Honestly, from a outside perspective, thieves are not in a bad place. Just like rangers, they could use some buffs mainly in the team/group support area.

I think, seen from an objective POV, that the thief playerbase must look towards developing team/group support builds, and think less about slippery stealth and 3-hit-kill builds. Stop being negative, thieves are far from the only profession who gets nerfed. Happens to rangers in every patch there is thanks to rangers being strong in sPvP.

Our situation is a bit different than rangers. For one in most dungeons we are perfectly fine with a slew of builds. We still do strong single target DPS and are coupled well with any class that drop fields often (SB #2). Smoke screen is good for blocking projectiles (with reflecting them being one of the best support in the game) Dagger Storm can work well too if the team is organized. Stealth to skip trash is still useful as are stealth rezes. Spamming weakness vs trash is also a plus.

Rangers generally think frost spirit, spotter, and healing spring are their best support (debatable as they do bring buffs to the table as well).

Warrior & guardian have been the top PvE class mostly due the their ease of play. Speaking personally i do not find another class as useful to the team as a well played guardian but that is fine. There are going to be classes that are better in PvE than other classes. The only thing that matter is that a class does not become useless in PvE. Group support slowly but surely has been upped little by little for each class. I imagine venom shares buff (not really useful in PvE) was their attempt to make us more group oriented. As we are no thieves are fine in dungeons.

First off OP a post like this does not really have anything worth discussing. It is spvp people will kitten. Running to the forums to tell people playing your class and ask them is this fair is a form of whining within itself. That being said even if you did want to bring this up the spvp forums is still a better place for this type of discussion. If you play a build that is currently meta for the random arena and solo que you are likely to hear complaints. Best advice I could give you a is play the build you feel comfortable with and never post something like this again. If they get offensive with the language politely send them a tell informing them that they have been blocked (and possibly reported). It will save everyone lots of text to read through.

I do not say this to be mean. Spvp is just like this so learn to ignore what isn’t all that important.

This probably belongs in the general discussion section. While you have some valid points generally speaking farewell post do not do much good. Instead of posting about how your quitting remind Anet you paid for the game and what exactly you want. While it may seem no one is listening they do read some of the post.

As far as part compilation goes it has been said many times over. If you do not like what people are advertising build your own group. The “Heavy Only” is not the norm and you won’t see many players who have played a period longer than 3 months saying that.

Support is appreciated. It just so happens support stats on the other hand are garbage (scaling issues). support builds do have a place (boon spamming, reflects, cc) in PvE. In PvP support stats still have place when bunkering or in WvW when roaming in a small group or a zerg. PvE is not difficult enough for most pugs to care what stats you run.

No I am not joking. No matter what way they push to balance some builds will end up on top. Whether those builds are considered OP are not is in the eyes of the populace. Despite the whining that we hear (much of it legitimate) the fact remains players will play builds that win. It really is that simple. With the list of things players ask nerfs for I think it might be impossible to balance any of this where builds are relatively equal.

I think given the slow balance, and the fact that balance updates generally just shift the meta, (which doesn’t balance the playing field) that playing cheese builds is only logical for some players. There is no reason to force yourself to play builds that you feel are balanced.

Play what works for you. Whether the build be considered OP or not play what works for you. You may get angry tells from time to time, or the other teams may hurl insults. I am being completely serious when i say this. None of this matters. What really matters is winning.

First off thief by design (dev statements confirm this) is supposed to be the class with the most mobility. In terms or axis movement yes we are however in a straight line we aren’t even close.

Warrior GS/X cant generally get ooc as long as Bull charge is on the bar or they have a sword equipped.

Ranger Sw + X or GS can do it too as long as they have lightning reflexes but in many cases the sword or the GS alone is enough

Ele X/D can do it as long as they have lightning flash but if the drop FGS not a class in the game can catch them if they have a lead.

Mesmer PU + smart play. Relies on stealth but all of it is independent and the boons are just great for running (1 in 3 chance of getting aegis with 4 seconds of stealth).

Engineer bomb kit, rocket boots, and pure avoidance. Won’t always get you OOC but if you have already your as good as gone if you know what you are doing.

Guardian. If you run meditations with Ji and SW/X + GS then you can get out of combat quickly in some situations. Simply put ports are faster than movement skills and sword has great one same as JI. The thing is you have to have a target. A smart guard targets something he cant hit and wont put him in combat. Being in range doesn’t matter the port will go through anyway.

Necromancer really can not do it. The class was designed solely around attrition. I do not think this is fair but truth is no other class has the raged soft CC that necro has.

Strictly speaking if you build a roaming build you’ll drop aggro pretty easy on any class if you know what you are doing. Many people do not get that for thief the options are limited.

I remember once I saw a zerg of 20 people coming my way on Warrior I quite literally hit block and ran off once it was over. I literally went right through them. That was 5 months ago before the class was even buffed. I used to roam Sw + GS people would say that a bad build it doesn’t duel well but if you build a roaming build that is what you will do with it. My guard in WvW is meditations I rarely get caught. My mesmer PU power same. Ranger (when I had one deleted now) was Sw + SB with a wolf for fear. The simple truth is if you build a roaming build you will drop combat on the fly. Only one class cant do this and that is necro.

The other day I toe to toed a warrior using GS. I got him to 15% life and he ran off with Rush + Savage leap got out of combat healed up and returned. No need to run to the forums I used to troll thieves that way.

Roamers are going to roam get over it or build to catch.

Not everyone is going to save. Many players earn for a goal, get what they want, and don’t worry about having a bankable amount of money. The real question is if you have enough to support your daily activity in game ie WvW gear, dungeon gear, harvesting tools etc. You good have several thousand gold but unless you plan to buy/craft a legendary you likely have little use for it besides watching your assets grow.

What exactly do you want to buy with the gold you have? If your answer is nothing then there is no point measuring how much you have. If you want a legendary (or some other expensive item) then many will tell you save for it.

Bunda.2691:

TheGuy.3568:

Most 6/6 bonuses aren’t good enough to warrant this.

There are 60+ rune sets with lots of different bonuses and they add new sets in periodically. I think it is fine as is.

I would actually argue that most people take their runes based on the 6/6, with the exception of few who just want max stats (divinity, ruby orbs, etc.). And really, how many players are running mixed sets by choice (with the exception of those going for boon duration)?

In WvW, it seem that >50% of people run soldiers, melandru, or traveler, and to a lesser extent hoelbrak, perplexity, lyssa, and scholar. All more or less for the 6/6.

My only point was that there are some good 2/2 or 4/4 skills that I’ll never take because either the 6/6 is not useful or there is another more useful 6/6 elsewhere. It’d be nice to do some mixing of sets.

First off there is no way to know exactly what runeset most world v world players are running. Making up statistics ins’t any good for discussion. You see a limited number of sets being the norm in because WvW is a form of PvP and players use their rune sets to supplement what their builds don’t have.

Second there is nothing to argue most sets are taken for their 6/6 bonus. You cherry picked what I said. Many players take a loss in stats for those bonuses as it was intended. The bonuses are good enough to lose some stats for thus a 6/6 investment.

You can get those 2/2 bonuses and 4/4 bonuses and forgo the 6/6 that is the point in the first place. You quite literally can’t have it all.

Edit:

You keep mention boon duration. Sets in 2/4 slot give 3 things. Duration (boon or condition), procs (boon, condition, attack), and stats. That is it. Most mixing and matching goes to boon duration (and to a lesser extent specific conditions like bleed) is because there is synergy between those sets. Many sets have there 2/2 4/4/ 6/6 bonuses mesh with each other (see: Rune of Altruism)

The most gold I have ever had was 200g for golden and a tag. The thing is the money you have fluctuates based on what you are buying. The average amount of gold many players have who aren’t saving up for something might change on a daily basis. For example I had 26 gold earlier this week and some T6 mats. I decided to put a set of travelers on my mesmer. I sold some of the mats and got an additional 60-70g (I was spending it as I trickled in). I bought the runes some new weapons. and was down to 3 or so gold. However, between the 12 travelers runes, corruption, bloodlust, force, accuracy sigils, that I have on toons that can be salvaged, dungeon tokens (salvage the gear for ectos), plus mats it is difficult to gauge how much I actually have in terms of gold.

My point is even if you ask something like this players actual amount of gold isn’t really the same asking ho

OK the way I see it your idea isn’t bad. The thing is there really isn’t anything wrong with the champ train. Think about it a sec. The champ train was added after they nerfed dungeon rewards. The point was to get players back into the world. Players are not stupid though. They want loot and shinies to support what ever they are trying to buy. So they figured out the most efficient use of their time and wala you have champ train.

Your proposal basically says the champ train is bad. That is your opinion but lets look at the ramifications of your proposal.

Nerfing the champ train by reducing loot to once a day and using dynamic events to boost loot chance (like a chest magic find) to boost the loot from bosses in an area.
However. the bonuses aren’t permanent and require players to re explore the area on a weekly or daily basis. To boost loot from a champ (still rng) which is account bound in some cases and can not be sold for gold.

The main issue here is that you are trying to make each champ like and event chain in orr for a temple or a world boss. Much like when they nerfed the bosses and temples to once a day loot you will see less people trying to farm for higher loot rates and more people farming the bosses and logging out or moving on to other things like dungeons. Fresh new skins based on rng that can’t be sold will boost the pop doing this for a moment. However, much like Teq is now only a few guilds will keep up with this foolishness as rng doesn’t provide the shiny you want time after time and it can’t be sold in the first place (see: this).

Your idea sadly would drive players out of the world. Making things this intensive for such small loot much like what happened to world bosses (many simply farming for a precursor) will just drive some player away.

Please do not forget the point of open world for most players is to earn cash to support their crafting of ascended gear, legendary weapons, line their pockets with gold, boost their magic find, and/or to support WvW.

Most 6/6 bonuses aren’t good enough to warrant this. Since rune sets themselves are diverse I do not see the point in making mixing and matching sets because you have sets that mix stats (divinity,traveler) and you have orbs to fill gaps. Instead of mixing and matching sets to get a 6/6 bonus ( I do not even see how this could work) they could just add a new set with mixed stats.

Many of the sets with good 6/6 bonuses are built with that bonus in mind ie perplexity builds around condi damage, soldier around toughness and vitality etc. The only reason I could see this being a proposal is for the 6/6 from travelers or speed.

As far as raw stats go it depends but lets take scholar vs ruby orbs. total stats gained from scholar 165 power, 8% crit damage, and 10% damage bonus while above 90% hp. Ruby 84 precision 120 power (204 total stat points) and 12% crit damage. In terms of raw stats you actually end up ahead with the ruby. So the 6/6 bonus is god enough from scholars to take less stat points overall. And really that is the point. 6/6 bonuses (the good ones) usually require you to take less stats in order to obtain them or take 2 stats solely when orbs will give you three.

There are 60+ rune sets with lots of different bonuses and they add new sets in periodically. I think it is fine as is.

Support builds are around. It just so happens that support stats are nearly useless. When you have guard popping WoR at the right time or a thief using SB to keep weakness up on trash mobs or an engineer using healing turret to cleanse conditions and heal for the party (same thing with healing spring on ranger) then you have support. From banners to might stacks support has a place. too many players get caught up on the stats on the armor vs the actual purpose of the build. How many guardians do you see running around in meditation builds in PvE for damage? Truth is many players go full zerker or mostly zerker due to the fact that after many months of play they got good at dodging and evading incoming damage through evade frames, and knowing when to go ranged. Even if you make bosses in dungeons much harder once you understand what to look for then likely players will maximize their DPS in regard to their uptime. It really is that simple.

As far as role based play it is already in the game. I doubt the majority really wants to have healers, tanks, and dps when you can pug with any build and be ok. There are many mmos with that set up already in fact it is the majority why would this game which prides itself on not needing that in anyway want to go down that path? Players are rewarded for learning combat routines and playing smart.

Zerker is not the defacto armor set for PvE. In lower level dungeons crit damage actually doesn’t scale well so you can build more tanky. VS constructs (think AC paths 1 and 3) it has no use. Building purely power is fine. Same with world bosses. Fact is many players will switch gear for the occasions or play what they are comfortable with. The elitist speed runners have got many people thinking ti is the only way to play. That not going zerker makes you a noob. Truth is not every run needs to be a speed run and champ trains and properly playing the AH will net you more gold than dungeon running.

Look I will put it like this. On my thief as long as I am not being a troll there is very little anyone can do to stop me from escaping. That being said. On my warrior back before the big patch I played 5 months of GS/Sw warrior with lyssa. The chance of any class catching me while roaming was nearly nil. The thing is I do not think that is a real issue. Roaming builds should be fast and fast enough to out run other roamers or simply evade them. I did the same on my GS/Sw ranger before I deleted it. Roamers should be fast and good enough to break combat. I think the main issue is that warrior are hard to snare and it is hard to keep sustained going vs HS and Adrenal Health combined. The situation isn’t much different than DD ele. Truth is it really is the same.

Thieves in general should not QQ over this. SB is by far the best movement weapon in the game (immune to soft CC, ranged weapon, and X axis movement). If the warrior run that is just the situation. I will say this warriors in a general sense are over the top atm. Roaming wise you could out run/evade a full melee warrior on anything save a necromancer with the right build.

Roaming builds should be insanely mobile that is the point isn’kitten

Short bow auto attack, sigil of fire (it wont tag but it will add to the damage of mobs you hit with auto attack), spam 2 at 300 range or less, and play a power build. It really is that simple. If you want easy tagging get a guard use staff and once again a power build. Condi builds do not tag well at all.

In terms of AoE tagging as said before the only thing above SB thief is guardian with a staff. Even nade engineer is limited by flight time.

Why necro this thread? That being said it is a kittenty skill. Pressing skill 5 only works vs a mesmer who doesn’t know what they are doing. A competent one will simply stun you or immobilize and land their DPS chain. We can complain about the skill but truth is the cd is very long and mass invisibility is simply better in most cases.

Simply put it is one of the best long range weapons in the game. Is combustive shot OP? For conquest mode yes it is. The main issue is burning hits way too hard and it is very hard to avoid that skill while trying to contest a point. Add in Fast Hands + Burst Mastery and you just spam it off cooldown. Lets not pretend like adrenaline is hard to build. We all know it isn’t. Warrior isn’t really OP for this skill. Healing Signet still needs to be looked at and base damage is rather high across the board on warrior (though this is by design).

Fact is warrior is OP as it is right now. People who play warrior will adamantly defend the class no matter how valid the point is. People who don’t play will say the whole class and every skill should be nerfed. Exaggerations of course. Anet will shuffle their feet.

Here is a list

1). Why so much love for AI and passive builds?

2). Why hasn’t warrior Healing Signet been touched yet? Why was it buffed that much in the first place?

3). Settler’s Amulets wth where you thinking?

4). The nerf on AoE damage did you all forget about it?

5). On the topic of AoE why all the set it and forget it AoE that cannot be negated ie wells, bombs, Combustive Shot, etc?

6). You added in the “shinnies” but what are you planning to keep the Spvp player base engaged?

&). Why is there Skyhammer?

Why not make it permanent? Make it 800 gems and tack on a coin for of 1 gold per extraction.

panicbutton.1053:

It is our only weapon in which NO build surrounds it, making it inefficient and rendered almost useless.

That really isn’t an issue. SB as it is a great utility weapon and honestly it is fine in that regard. Strong AoE damage, strong access to poison field, strong access to blast finishers (AoE weakness is a plus is many places), and great mobility. It is not the perfect main hand weapon. What is is is one of the best group/utility weapons in the game if not the best one.

A build does not have to be centered around a weapon in order for that weapon to get useful. Not every weapon is going to be great at everything. As it is SB is a very good weapon. It wouldn’t make any sense to beg for it to get buffed just to have it nerfed a few months later.

We need a 1,200 range option dps weapon. My hope is Anet will look into giving us LB.

Um solo que tourney is basically what you want. Hot join is fine as it is.