Guild Wars 2

I am having the same issue after about a year away.

The problem isn’t so much mobility as it is snaring/soft cc to keep a target in range. It was never complex and never has been. It is incredibly easy to break off combat with a guardian. Lets get to the point it is a class that is strongest in melee range that has issues staying there while on the move. Either up scepters range usefulness or add the soft cc guardians have been begging for the past year.

Considering how long this has been an issue and the stance by Anet that guardians are balanced I doubt we will see any change in this area.

Long story short many “pro” players will expect the guardian to run of the cookie cutter builds in PvE for the sake of speed and easiness. Pugs will not give a kitten.

At the end of the day the guardian is half expected to carry he group in either situation. Imho if you want to play a class that gets very little criticism in a a group go with warrior. For just about everyone else they assume the player or the class sucks thus they do not want it.

Listen OP if you ask this question the response will be the same. Play the optimized build in a party or you suck and are a waist to the team. If you do not want to hear this do not ask. Just play what you like and your pug will be none the wiser.

My ele which has been sitting for a year now would love this but the devs haven’t addressed this at all. I support this despite my ele being more of a bank toon now but I do not thin the devs really care at this point.

Viking Jorun.5413:

TheGuy.3568:

At this point it is likely that thief should be removed from the game all together. I am being serious. WvW hates the stealth and mobility Spvp wants a newly buffed after more than a year skill nerfed. I think the class is so tired of being kittened over that it is time for it just be deleted from the game.

Give me my Dervish and I’ll be happy to oblige (or just give thief staff — scythe staff skin anyone? >.>).

I miss dervish at the same time I like my thief but no matter what build I play the whine gets out of hand. In fact if dervish was added it would be the new class to whine over….for thief.

It isn’t fair that dervish can spin.

Why?

It makes back stab really hard to land.

Nabrok.9023:

Funny. You can look over in the sPvP forums and see people complaining about the exact opposite.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/WvW-is-killing-PvP-development/first#post3552360

In regards to this. When a pvp player sees the meta changed they go a vendor for free and get their gear and traits changed. For a WvW player they look at their wallet and decide if they should do a dungeon or buy some gold to respec and re gear. The investments are insanely different.

On that note WvW is by far the more popular game mode and despite it short comings should be the focus of PvP due to its popularity. I am not asking for WvW to balance the game. I just think every time they change a skill for Spvp they change it for PvE/WvW for uniformity in function. That is bullkitten. We invest more time and cash and much more to lose with meta changes.

Power creep has us chasing ascended gear at a high cost while balance for us is based on Spvp. This is wrong. This is really kittening wrong. We have much more to lose no matter what class you play when the meta changes.

I like that the devs are having more contact with this side of the game and PvE but at the same time we will eat balance changes to PvE as well.

I continually get weary investing in anything for here due to the insane amount of balance power Spvp has over this game mode and every other. Given the amount of money, time effort, and PvE we are forced into to compete here i wonder why Spvp has such a sway over the devs that WvW never has? In any case Spvp’s balance changes no matter what class I play loom over head threatening to make an investment useless.

At this point it is likely that thief should be removed from the game all together. I am being serious. WvW hates the stealth and mobility Spvp wants a newly buffed after more than a year skill nerfed. I think the class is so tired of being kittened over that it is time for it just be deleted from the game.

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

everyone and their mother runs sword in pvp atm, doubt any buffs will happen lol

D/D + SB all the way! (least likely to get nerfed)

….because they have already been nerfed? /nod

What: Thief removed from game

Why: Every build is considered OP. No buffs or balance can get through.

Cynz.9437:

everyone and their mother runs sword in pvp atm, doubt any buffs will happen lol

Does that include WvW?

I will ask 4 simple questions. Should a weapon set be killed that is already dead in every other game type due to nerfs in Spvp be killed in Spvp As well? Should a class already facing big nerfs be nerfed yet again for the sake of spvp the least played game mode? Should non stealth builds be nerfed further? Is there an underlying culprit that should be addressed first?

evilapprentice.6379:

Nice idea in spirit, way too clunky in execution.

As Paulo said, who wants to spend 6 init to drop low damage conditions/conditions that are soon expiring? You’ll also run into the situation where you suddenly lose access to IR because someone hit you with a condition – not a good thing.

Even discounting those above situations, 6 init is alot – you won’t have initiative for anything else. If there was some intuitive, smooth way to pick and choose when you spent additional init for condi removal it would be nice, but that just isn’t possible with the way the game is designed.

Well that isn’t true. It is 4 + the current cost and would change the way we deal with condi specs. I could say the same about shadowstep 50 seconds is a long cd to deal with 3 condi.

Let me break it down. We are really talking about 4 seconds. 4 seconds of initiative where you could have anywhere from 15 to 0 to start with. The return would still work at 2 but would remove just the one base condition. Depending on how you mange your initiative this would be the right buff.

Every assumption I have seen so far seems to deal with this from the perspective you have blown all you initiative in that case you were playing badly in the first place and you could still return at 2.

Instead of focusing on playing crappy imagine a non reliance on lyssa runes to deal with spikes. Or the actual counter play a change like this would add.

Paulo.8459:

Imagine you have 2 stacks of bleeding from a power specced opponent, 1 stack of vulnerability and maybe 4 seconds poison.
Would you like to waste 6 initiative on this?

Yeah, i completely agree with you, i didn’t want to say that i’m against a buff but that it will most likely not happen.

That is simple you would not use it. You would force ably gap yourself from you opponent in the first place in that situation as well so obviously you wouldn’t use it. That is just common sense. Like I said it creates a greater opportunity cost situation for thief. At the same time being logical is a factor. If they buff it someplace else a trait or something it will become a go to for stealth builds as well. I think that there will be obvious trade off but that the benefits outweighs the possible cons.

It is common sense you have other methods to avoid damage from a power build so if you aren’t being pressured you really wouldn’t use it.

BTW pain response regardless of the build would kick in once he got you to 75% eliminating any type of control you have over you condi management.

Something has to change. No one is coming up with good ideas and all I hear is whine everywhere. Balance comes with a cost.

Paulo.8459:

I think it would be problematic if infiltrator’s return costs 6 initiative. I think i would almost never use it again because this one skill alone drains 50% of my initiative, even if i don’t have conditions on me.

By the way, people are still crying about sword thieves being OP in the class balance subforum, i don’t think we’ll ever see any buffs.

It would be 6 initiative only if it removed 2 additional conditions which is a fair price for a buff like that.

As far as the class balance forums goes. Th reference is to Spvp and to the feline grace heavy evades point assaulter build. I have 2 comments on this. The first is there is some concern over that but in a group fight there is very little the thief can do. The second is whining about spvp is not a reason to stop a buff. There are 3 game modes and it is by far the least popular and can have the skills there split. Too much of the balance is based on Spvp and Spvp alone concerns and this would do very little to change what is going on. That being said condi management is not ok for non stealth builds.

Since thief and the word buff often bring tears and anger I suppose this may be a waste. That being said I feel sword #2 needs a buff and a very specific one at that. Now many of us remember the days when sword #2 was a stun breaker. I do not want those days again. We may also remember the days when the infiltrator’s return portion of sword #2 had a extreme range. I do not want that back either. What I would like is the secondary portion of sword #2 (conditional removal) to be buffed.

So how should it be buffed?

Glad you asked. My proposal is that the second portion of sword #2 Infiltrator’s Return be allowed to remove 2 additional conditions at the cost of 2 initiative per condition removed. That is if you remove 3 conditions it would cost you 6 initiative.

Why is it needed?

Well as many of us know much of our damaging condition removal (burning poison bleeding) is tied to 3 skills and 2 trait. Hide in shadows, Shadow Return, and Signet of Agility are the skills. The issue with HiS is that it has a relatively long cd, does not remove torment, and pigeon holes your heal. Shadow Step is also one of our main stun breakers and only removes conditions on the return portion. The cd is 50 seconds untraited and only removed 3 conditions. SoA is good when you are surrounded by many players but is lack luster in solo play. Pain Response, and Shadow’s Embrace are the traits. The main issues with pain response are the cd (30 seconds), the health threshold 75% (given the small hp pool thief has playing with threshold skills is very difficult see last refuge), tier (20 point investment) and the fact it does not remove torment. Shadow’s Embrace has no real issues. It is a cheap investment and works well. That being said the only build that can truly maximize the condi management are stealth heavy builds. There in lies the rub.

S/P and S/D both tend to be played as evasive builds (despite the fact S/D does have access to stealth through CnD). In the case of S/P many players choose to play it with no stealth at all limiting condi burst management options. If sword #2 were to be buffed as I propose it would alleviate some of the risk from conditions with playing these builds but still would cost enough to make it something to debate using in a battle.

Why it won’t be OP?

The keep this short the cost. The initial Infiltrator’s Strike cost 3 initiative. If you were to be dotted up with 3+ condis it would cost a total of 9 initiative to remove 3 of them. That is 75% of the base bar. Heavy cost for a useful skill. The cost additionally means that a heavy opportunity cost arises in a situation where you want to run. S/D and S/P both have limited mobility compared to other thief specs often relying on Infiltrator’s Arrow to get around. The cost for IA is 6 initiative. So in some cases this would present the question whether run of fight given the heavy cost.

Why it is good for those who hate stealth?

Whether you think it is OP or not some people simply hate stealth (thieves included). This change would promote builds that do not heavily build into stealth but still want some form of defense vs condi burst. It would take some of the burden off stealth to be the catch all defensive tool and place it elsewhere. This would also not be a buff to stealth burst builds but evasive hopefully shifting some player away from shadow arts and opening up some builds.

Why I hope you will support this?

Many patches see thief either getting nerfed heavily or buffed in places we do not need to be buffed or want to be buffed. I think my proposed buff has a place. I feel given the cost and what it will be buffing it will not be “OP” but balanced and will buff sets that are not particular popular. I think a buff like this not linked to stealth but other defensive tools would lead to opening builds. It will likely not draw the anger of the community and would give thieves wary of leaving SA, D/P some options.

Thank you for reading & please show your support if you like my idea.

Back before the DD ele major nerfs during one of the 2012 SoTGs the devs said something along the lines of that heals need an opportunity to be interrupted. It was in reference to the mist form healing nerf. Imho the main issue with HS is the active sucks and regen can not really be interrupted.

Thedenofsin.7340:

TheGuy.3568:

Just because it is popular doesn’t mean it should be nerfed. There are a good number of reasons to nerf some select warrior traits and skills, but being a heavily played class has nothing to do with it.

I’m not discussing the popularity of the class. I’m discussing the fact it is the most dominant class in nearly every area of the game.

Look players will play what they play. I got an 80 warrior and every other class save necro. The build I find easiest in PvE is any. It really is so simple you can play any class. If I am going to be completely honest after a year + of play thief S/P is my go to and then guardian behind that. Warrior is great fro new players in PVT who do not dodge and want a simple class. It is literally middle of the road in everything save Spvp.

Lets be honest here. PvE is too simple to nerf classes around. WvW is a zerg fest which is more about tagging then anything else. Most players have leveled multiple 80s.

I never get these post where nerfs should be handed out arbitrarily based on the assumed playing habits of the pop. Balancing the game against PvP is fine. Usefulness is fine. Balancing the game vs what class people are playing is just stupid. I am sorry but it really is stupid.

Shockwave.1230:

Use shortbow for range in general. When fighting single target bosses swap to P/P.

^ The answer to your question.

Just because it is popular doesn’t mean it should be nerfed. There are a good number of reasons to nerf some select warrior traits and skills, but being a heavily played class has nothing to do with it.

TChalla.7146:

Necromancers and their debacle with Dhuumfire are all nodding in agreement over this.

Necro is the only class I haven’t played a lot or leveled to 80. So I usually won’t comment there except for the fact I think power necros need more mobility since they aren’t playing attrition builds. That being said I do not know about the Dhuumfire nerf. So far they have removed some bleeds and have already nerfed it some to compensate for the passive condi. It is a pretty heavy investment for a condi builds to go that far into spite for one trait (condi duration is there I know but the other trait just aren’t that good.)

Lets be honest here a sec. Power necro wont touch if since close to death is there and if the trait is that big of an investment I don’t see the point in getting it. Death shroud toggling is mostly for power necros getting burst out. So the change will probably just kill the trait altogether. I think condi is general are OP as hell and signet of spite should have been looked at long ago. That being said nerfing a class this much based on one with that type of cost to get is just senseless.

If it was me I likely leave it as it is a focus on the number of condition spiked out at once vs nerfing the burning. If I was going to nerf it I would at least bring it down to master tier so you at least keep it useful, and move training of the master up. Whether MM uses it or not nerfs to petting zoos appease the masses.

All that being said I do not play the class or like condi heavy builds. So you can take what I say with a grain a salt.

3 things. do not buy ascended anything til the crit damage nerf goes through the math might change. the go to set for zerk opt out is Valk. If your a basic 0 30 30 10 0 with hidden killer then the precision can go bye bye for anything else you need to survive. If you are not going to PvP with you thief you could just go S/P with SoM as your heal and just avoid almost all damage through evasion and still play glass.

No change to warrior over the past few months has hit the class hard enough to make it useless in any game mode, or give any class a significant heads up advantage over it. The nerfs so far for the most part were well deserved.

As far as meta goes warrior is still fine in Spvp, Still at the top of the board for WvW zerg meta, still top 3 in roaming. In PvE while not being an optimal dps class it is still a baseline choice for many parties seeking a “heavy”.

People on a witch hunt wanting to see warrior nerfed into the ground are just a foolish as those who feel the class has no builds. HS should have been nerfed long ago. The active should have been brought up long ago. Every other heal especially Mending should have been improved long ago as well. There is literally no need for a warrior pity party atm. Some buffs are needed as are some nerfs but lets not sugar coat it like warrior is the useless class it was before.

What I find funniest is the idea that people do not play the class. I find it funny that when I argue with thieves that new pistol whip could be OP as kitten just like SC -> 100B was so Anet should not touch it I come here and read that the SC nerf was unfair. Or that Axe auto attack is should be reverted so that the last hit (like it is with all other auto attack chains) should not have the best damage but the second hit should.

Lets cut the BS. Warrior was the most we rounded class in terms of game, but considering 2 out of 3 game modes require balance more around the classes themselves vs the environment it is totally fine to nerf one class to buff the other 7. Or to buff one class to nerf builds in the other 7. It nice if we all saw pretty buffs every patch but knowledgeable players already know that a buff to other classes is a nerf to mine.

Look if “pro” players needed absolutely cheese builds to survive then they weren’t pro in the first place. If you quit because you stopped liking the game that is generally the smart move.

Simple.

Lowered poison duration from thief and engineer fields by 40%
Lowered burst by 10% (WvW)
Lowered Healing Signet by 8% and still getting the active buffed.

I don’t see where there is much to discuss here.

Sigh…There is one issue with bunker engineer and that is bomb kit besides that I do not see any other issues.

truth is stealth is kittenty to deal with for most classes but not all. It confusing and seeing how the most common burst build and form of defense is tied to it for this class many players still have issues with it. That being said it isn’t that stealth is OP but that it isn’t dealt with well by most builds. Any build with decent aoe and condi pressure will be fine vs a thief. Any build with decent number of stuns will be fine vs a thief. That is every class save ranger.

kyubi.3620:

-snip-

You are ranting at this point. Warrior as it is right now is “OP” for a number of reasons. However, none of them meaning that this class or any other needs a boost rather than tweaking the way some traits and skills work for that class.

Pistol whip as it is fine. Unnecessary buffs are how the trend of OP builds get started (see skull crack). It really isn’t about fearing a buff and more about having played long enough on enough classes to understand balance. Looking at the big picture it is like getting a buff no one asked for after we get the buff we begged to get for over a year. It was kitten like this that got me to quit warrior.

I read in your sig you have every class at 80 and are a dungeon master but I think you really need to look at the big picture. The game is not balanced in the vacuum that is thief is warrior. there are 6 other classes and I know some classes simply would not be able to deal with this change in PvP especially group play. The whiners you speak of are also paying customers and whether you like or not they will express their opinions.

For many off us it just simply makes more sense to leave the skills with it’s current pros and cons rather than open up another can of worms. If you haven’t noticed this class has had heat for its entire life time.

I am going to ask do you main S/P thief? If not you should listen to understand vs listening to respond. Yes it could be a buff but it is literally unnecessary in PvE and PvP.

kyubi.3620:

TheGuy.3568:

kyubi.3620:

TheGuy.3568:

style.6173:

Building a weaponset that is only good for PvE (and not even the best there) makes no sense.

Do you use S/P in PvE and WvW? If not then listen to the people that main it. It really is fine as it is right now.

sword pistol is wonderfull right now.. However id like to remind you that separating the stun and the flurry might not be as much of a nerf as you might think and thus for 3 reason

1. well still be able to chain the two move togueter even if they are separated. and prety much at the same speed
2. Pistol whip will now proc an easy low cost interupt wich you can pull in for nearly nothing!
3. Youl now be able to place your flurry at the right moment (like when the target is webed by a venom), so better damage overall for every thief in pvp and better initiative management.

In the end id say its not a nerf but rather a buff

Just gonna leave this here for you and this. Take the time and read my post if you are going to quote me.

Im just saying it wont be a nerf if they make it a 2 move spell. You say its fine then good it will STILL be fine after that. People might wine but im always happy when anet actualy makes some of my skill better. Asuming they will nerf it right after they up it is pure paranoia

It isn’t like I am the only person to come to this conclusion. It is far from paranoia and pretty kitten logical. Many of thieves here who actually play S/P already realize how to make it “OP” with just auto attack. Since the skill works well as it is there really is no need to change it. They literally after a year just fixed the after cast to make it useful. I rather see it left alone then made “OP” and nerfed into the ground. While many players love when endless buffs come in if you read the writing on the wall long enough you realize some buffs are quite literally a set up for a nerf.

Listen this is the thief thread we have been through this before. Paranoia vs learning from the past? Fool us once shame on you. Fool us twice shame on us.

Xyonon.3987:

I can’t see the nerf seriously. Am I missing something? Its like I just have to press twice but can change my mind if I want to. o.o’’

There are 2 potential nerfs. The first is is you miss the stun you are not allowed to follow with the evade. Meaning to use the evade defensive you absolutely must land the stun. In many cases PW can be used to avoid incoming damage vs actually doing anything else. Depending on how they plan to change it it would just be a survival nerf.

The other is the initiative cost. We have seen this story play out with S/D. So the first concern is they will mess with the initiative cost. Given how cheap a stun would be at 3 initiative they would likely have to.

More doom and gloom actually stems from the likely buff that would lead to an eventual nerf. Since the skill has been buffed to usefulness you will see many thieves say leave it aloe for the sake o not needing to nerf it in the future. This is not the well wait and see balance warrior gets (speaking truth not a warrior bash) we get quick balance patch to nerf our skills. It has been that way for a long time. I think many thieves who have been around a while can see the writing on the wall and rather not get nerfed after a buff.

kyubi.3620:

TheGuy.3568:

style.6173:

Building a weaponset that is only good for PvE (and not even the best there) makes no sense.

Do you use S/P in PvE and WvW? If not then listen to the people that main it. It really is fine as it is right now.

sword pistol is wonderfull right now.. However id like to remind you that separating the stun and the flurry might not be as much of a nerf as you might think and thus for 3 reason

1. well still be able to chain the two move togueter even if they are separated. and prety much at the same speed
2. Pistol whip will now proc an easy low cost interupt wich you can pull in for nearly nothing!
3. Youl now be able to place your flurry at the right moment (like when the target is webed by a venom), so better damage overall for every thief in pvp and better initiative management.

In the end id say its not a nerf but rather a buff

Just gonna leave this here for you and this. Take the time and read my post if you are going to quote me.

I can make this simple. Given the health pool and the lack of traits that control conditions well thief is left with limited options. Passive application is high and our health pool is just too small to deal with conditions the way other classes.

The other thing is I read your post history and despite long gaps of silence it seems you have never played thief or take the time to examine the skills properly. Your OP is riddled with mistakes that make your argument all that less valid and like any nerf thread does not provide a reasonable alternative. given the high amount of simple passive condi application thief needs a “cheap” trait to deal with it. This may upset you but thief has one of the worst times dealing with condition builds as it is.

If you want this nerfed take the time to play the class and understand why so many of us are forced to run this. Better yet play a S/P thief and understand why we actually need traits like this.

The sad part is most players know to stay away from this topic. Condi management cross class leaves us and ranger at the bottom of the list right below mesmer.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Engineer is actually like #5 or so? It really depends on the way you choose to calculate DPS. They’re slightly below guardians, about equal with warriors, and definitely above rangers and necromancers. And yeah it doesn’t matter in the slightest because we’re talking like a 10% difference in minmaxed DPS at most between #4 and #8.

The only classes that significantly pull ahead of the pack are eles (about 16k/s) and mesmers (about 13k). Thieves are around 12k last I checked and the rest are clustered between 10k-11k.

That may change with Ferocity since crit damage doesn’t impact all classes equally, but it remains to be seen exactly how they choose to change it. Engineers will definitely go up though because even with a zerk build they have a significant chunk of damage coming from conditions.

Also Ele minmax is fire staff, not LH. LH/Scepter only pulls around 13k.

You forgot about the other LH a party member picks up.

It is neither. It is a decent burst weapon but nearly useless without a strong stun or immobilize in PvP. In PvE if you just want DPS it is good burst but Axe sustain is much stronger.

Just thinking (do not lose your heads) but doesn’t the damage nerf and poison field nerf off set the healing nerf to signet in WvW at least?

The big nerf is to anyone no matter the class brave enough to run a burst power build in WvW. We could sit here and say who’s getting hit harder this class or the other. However, from power necro to thief anybody not on the condi band wagon is getting royally screwed. What was really happened is they disregarded the ridiculous investment the forced us into for ascended gear and offered no form of compensation other that it would effect WvW now moving on. I get the devs have a job to do and in their vision this is best for the future, but in truth it is moves like this that make you wonder if they play their own game.

One last note no one should want HS going back to the way it was. We asked for buffs we got them and they over did it. They didn’t even bother to buff the active and so many good suggestion were put out there for months before the buff and nothing was taken into considerations it seems like. They buffed the passive moved on and and despite months of complaints did nothing. An 8% nerf wont have a big effect. They could have nerfed it more and buffed the active to something useful.

tattoohead.3217:

^
If that was a serious post I want to meet the mesmers you play with lol, and the THFs for that matter.

Ele Lh + scepter
Mesmer Sword off hand phant build (provided 3 phants are up)
Thief basic 25 30 0 0 15 DD in the right might stacking situation.

Everyone else kind of caps out where they cap out (not huge differences).

Due to might stacking engineer is one of the highest dps classes in solo play. If you are looking at those risen giant slaying videos to judge dps you are looking at the wrong place. Party play in the perfect storm (vulnerability capped might capped) is generally how they judge dps. Truth is unless you are in an organized speed run you likely won’t see maximized dps as it is. In any case engineer is near the bottom of the list and it really isn’t that big a deal. Most pugs won’t care.

Domey.9804:

What they want to Do: increase the stun duration on whip. So that the whole skill can Land without utilities.
Thats why they Split the skill.
They cant increase stun time now cuz you could stunlock to death.

But we All Know what will happen to this skill…

Your right. However this is how I see it. In PvE it is just an extra button push serving no purpose. In PvP it is a buff. That will inevitability lead to a nerf. Why you ask? All main hand sword thieves know how awesome slice is. Animation is stupid short and it actually hits hard. We can literally achieve good good damage with auto attack not unlike sword for DPS guardian, ranger, and warrior pre the final thrust move from auto attack chain.

I think a possible combo could be Stun -> slice-> slash. Target just ate half a PW while stunned in roughly half the time. This will likely lead to an auto attack nerf or some other nerf to compensate. I can see the complaints now about getting stun locked by thief and how this is Mc/Sh + GS warrior all over again. I can see anet coming in here and doing what they usually do nerfing gimping our dps further in PvE to help PvP. I can see the flood of stun spammers (new to the class) saying it isn’t OP while some vet thieves resort to it for the sake of viability. Others say some thing along the lines of,“We’ll it is not stealth and you can counter it with stability.” So we see a slight of hand + bountiful theft nerf to compensate. All the while people kitten about stealth and how thief is so OP.

Before all of that let me say the skill is fine as is. In strong language leave it the kitten alone.

I think the main issue here is that they nerfed something that did not need to be touched in WvW for the sake of PvE. I can understand that but without compensation for the gear which is a lot harder to grind out in WvW that PvE with fractals it is pretty much a slap in the face to roamers in power builds. We do not need to exaggerate roaming meta has been pushing toward condi builds if your class can run them for a while not. With the exception of some mesmer builds builds and stealth thief builds zerker gear has become less and less practical to use while roaming. The damge reduction to both hybrid and power/crit based builds is just and effective buff to condi builds. We have not heard word from Anet over giving us the option to re stat our ascended gear and given the time it takes to get it.

Truth is this is just part of the lack of giving 2 kittens about WvW when considering balance. They could have reworked the way mobs take a critical hit or even taken them time to not have the changes effect WvW. They mentioned that it would effect WvW and didn’t say kitten past that. It isn’t the stat change that kittenes me off the most but the complete ignorance of WvW issues in general. We invest quite a bit to do this. It is not Spvp so many of us have dropped real cash into this it is stupid. I have no clue what Anet is thinking but I do hope they consider reevaluating not so much the change but where they place zerker and crit damage in WvW. If they are willing to make major changes to PvE make other builds more viable they can make some major changes to WvW to give zerker a proper spot.

Kurr.4179:

And yet the same can be said about D/P having no place in PvE, but being good in PvP.

Not everything can be perfectly balanced everywhere. This change to Pistol Whip would make it worse in PvE. And yes, it IS the best set in PvE for all things except bosses (and it’s not bad vs bosses as well).

Actually vs any boss you need to stack for (thinking AC) then yah it is the best set for some bosses as well. Then again so is P/P. It really is situational.

What I know is this could be a buff in PvP but will likely end up being spam 3 twice to land anything. It really doesn’t make all that much sense because flurry and 100B root as well the skill is actually well balanced vs other like it. If they upped the stun to something that could round up with Sigil of Paralyzation there could be a decent PvP buff there. My concern is they will quite literally buff it and nerf it a few months down the line like they did with S/D.

style.6173:

Building a weaponset that is only good for PvE (and not even the best there) makes no sense.

Do you use S/P in PvE and WvW? If not then listen to the people that main it. It really is fine as it is right now.

lordkrall.7241:

LittleLepton.8915:

This is an entirely different thing from a trait change here or a skill change there. It’s changing an entire stat. Learn how to scale.

How is it different though?

If they change a skill that is “required” for lets say my Condition Based build, and suddenly make it “useless”, I wouldn’t want to have my Condition gear anymore, and thus I should, following your logic, be allowed to change it for free.

Lets make this clear. If they change a build in most cases it is completely possible to build a dps build around your dps armor and simply change the build. What they are doing is nerfing a stat across the board all builds and in WvW also. That is the main issue. A 10% reduction in PvE could have been done by adjusting the way mobs take crit damage. Conversely what they did was nerf zerker in the the least zerker friendly arena and basically didn’t give 2 kittens about the. The additional loss to sets like cavalier, valkyrie, and worst of all celestial are just worth a head shake. It is a major investment lost for lots of players not because the build is necessarily changing but a stat. If you look at the number of player affected and the game modes you would be a real ***hole not to offer all them the option to switch stats.

Galsia.4102:

I can see it now…

DA/II: Corrosive Traps, increased vulnerability time from 8 to 10 seconds.
CS/IV: Concealed Defeat, ICD removed.
SA/V: Power Shots, increased damage modifier to 7% from 5%.
Acro/VII: Fleet of Foot, now removes Chill.
Trickery/XI: Hastened Replenishment, increased initiative gained from 4 to 5.

That…sounds a lot like what we might get.

My main issue is just following the adage." If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!". They finally got pistol whip in a good place. I could see the PvP implementations of this but it just seems so unnecessary. When was the last time you saw real complaints about landing pistolwhip?

For DPS this is going to be a kitten spamming 3 twice for not apparent reason. S/D was originally having a lot of issue landing the second part of the skill. In this case splitting it will likely have the same effect. When was the last time you say there and ate a warriors 100 blades? Well have to spam 3 to land any of it in the first place so basically either the buff the stun and do a proper split or remove all after cast from the flurry portion and we still hit 3 twice to land anything. It will just become Illusionary leap → Swap→ Blurred Frenzy.

I do not see a buff in this. We have head shot if we need a real interrupt. This just seems like over thinking it.

Arkantos.7460:

Arganthium.5638:

I like how the devs spent the absolute least amount of time discussing the thief.

I’m okay with the nerf to Choking Gas, but I think there are a lot of buffs thieves could use that would be far more useful than this nerf is.

As for PW… Not sure what to think about this yet. Unless there’s some kind of drastic change though, I don’t think splitting this skill up will help anything.

jon peters also talked about increasing daze effect of PW after Splitting,
however getting 2 skills will increase the effect to suprise enemies by not simple doing 1 Long Animation; also you can manage your initiative bar very well by not simply spending 5 INit. ….. maybe using flurry in a different/same way as mesmer
and ….
2 Signets on shortbow ^^ and rune-update …. more things coming 21th and I think maybe the first time buffs on thief will overshadow the nerf on choking gas

First off it is a stun. Second the issue us a simple one. It is hard enough to land a full PW as it is vs a good player you might get half. Any player will know that you’ll have to blow the flurry before you PW again. Vs a flat out nerf (which it may actually be) it just a hassle. If they do not up the stun then with the second cast you likely won’t land the flurry. They did enough when they fixed the after cast. That being said the cast on the flurry and the duration of the stun is what we really have to worry about.

….Goodbye zerker guard?

Kurr.4179:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don’t destroy Pistol Whip.

I can’t play S/D anymore because of how they split the #3 skill. I just hate it so much. Now they want to take away S/P from me? =/

Thief WAS my favorite class but for the past couple of months I’ve only been using my warrior instead. I’ve been trying to get back to it recently and Pistol Whip is the only thing that doesn’t make me feel completely useless.

I agree with Big Tower as well. The damage nerfs are huge for Thief (10% less damage overall from crit builds) and now they are going to hurt us in PvE, again.

Bleh I need a break from Thief again it seems.

Yeah I know how you feel no joke literally last night crafted my ascended zerker sword and pistol for thief. lmao. I literally thought even if they touch our dps no way in hell they are going to touch S/P after just buffing it into usefulness….

Karolis.4261:

Actually many of thieves roam with backstab builds, might it be d/d and kitten d/p in valkyrie/zerker mix, maybe some cavalier in the mix too. And this will suffer more then berserker builds will.

Bingo and lets be honest they could possibly help this by making the ferocity primary sets they talked about but truth is they have the nerfed planed and this is just a maybe. My personal build will get hit hard running S/P while roaming. I think for many thieves unless they add in something amazing this is the straw. We have taken damage nerfs before but for us this is some heavy kitten to take in. To be fair warrior guardians any class that roamed zerker or needs to dodge to survive is looking at some dismal day ahead. PvE nerf I get but the WvW implications and the gear investment have me wondering wth they were thinking.

4 signet build 12k hp and to utilities once the burst wen through. honest truth is this is what just about no thief in WvW runs. It is too squishy. Lets be honest how many times has that build been nerfed already? I really is that squish a stiff wind could do the job.

BTW on my S/P thief this happened to me the other day the other guy was just faster. In general though if you can see them and pop your offense first they just don’t have the defense to stop you from bursting them first.

Why should players willing to learn a fight be punished for not playing tank gear? In reality this whole zerker meta thing is really elitist players shaving time. You do not punish players for attempting and succeeding at avoiding attack you reward them for it. Some players are not the “elite” and actually need the vigor. In the long run this doesn’t punish the speed runners or the “baddies” not running zerker it just punish anyone who isn’t great at dodging but still wants to run zerk or near zerk gear.

Post like are basically telling classes that can be one shot to quit if you want to melee.

Sigh…
With the exception of the healing signet passive being too strong the fact is everything else was simply necessary. Anet even ad the audacity to add in a new damaging condition. Lets be honest here a sec. No one really want to go back to the days of no Dogged march or berserker stance unless they want to truly hurt the class. As it is right now warrior sustained healing is just too good given its mobility. Not unlike DD ele early in it just takes a small change to fix the problem. If people jump on their soap box and proclaim the whole class and every good trait is OP then we risk placing Warrior in DD ele’s situation.

A few things. First off thief is not a toe to toe eat the hits class. even if you run S/P you are literally avoiding hits through evade frames and blinds. So anything that says protection is out because the protection spamming low health class is guardian. Our evades, blinds, and stealth are there for a reason use them well and you can survive just fine.

That being said I do not disagree with you sentiment just your analysis. Our best dungeon build is in all honesty S/P (most up time in melee best defense while still deal damage). In WvW it is up you. Roaming is the world of stealth but you can effectively roam with no stealth or little to no stealth ie no D/P, no x/D, and no refuge just fine.

[Power of Inertia]
Your basic dungeon dps build won’t take this trait as is neither will your WvW build. The retal is pointless we simply can not soak damage well enough to use it. Protection is out period. The regeneration is a nice idea but without an ICD of 5-10 seconds it just becomes spam dodge and heal. 6 second reveal is pointless because it is not a widely used trait and furthermore would just act as punishment for any build that so much as use blinding powder or HiS for limited stealth.

[Hard to Catch]
Needs a rework. Idea one is bad. If your stunned you are not dodging and we have some of the best endurance management in the game. The point of the trait is to help you avoid the punishment of getting hit by one of those effects. Idea one won’t do that. Idea 2 is fine but probably not wide reaching enough to help. Something like a simple break stun the first time you get stunned would be the easy fix.

[Vigorous Recovery]
Easy buff but likely unnecessary. It wouldn’t make the trait op or anything like that it just won’t serve much of a purpose. Honestly it couldn’t hurt.

[Assassin’s Reward]
Makes sense but heal scaling should still be part of it vs a flat amount. 120 is fine and likely would not be OP. Most players will not run x x 30 30 x and carry both traits. I do however think if you did have a build like that you could possibly troll to no end so not having it work in stealth could make sense.

Stealth builds and no stealth builds are already separated by the basic mechanics. A stealth build generally relies on stealth attack and not stealth builds on dual wield skills. S/P just a got buffed a while ago and PP has always been in weird place but does well as a burst weapon set. Shifting traits in acrobats wont help much. Trickery and Deadly Arts outshine it for regular play. Most people running those sets do not need that much defense outside PvP.

In regular PvE vs anything other than a champ or dredge S/P is literally your winner when it comes to survivability using black powder alone. Even when facing a champ it is still on top in terms of damage avoidance with proper use of PW. In PvP it depends. Stealth will give you a breather in combat but Evasion will allow you to fight a class like warrior heads up.