Guild Wars 2

they are maybe the 4th best class….
In my opinion
1)Guardians -(best overall group play and productivity. Offensive and Defensive)
2)Mesmers -Great AOE suviability and HUGE dmg
3-4)Eles/Warriors: Ele Spam skills and number #1 in: Mobility-heals-DMG reduction-Skill spamming and arguably condi removal-CC. Warrior is your base player. Good to superior dmg with good to superior defense with the fastest sprint / dash away in game. also has really great melee AOe and debilitating 5 sec immob and kd’s. every zerg needs one but not going to OP anyone in 1 v 1 unless superiorly played.
5/6) Necro/thief necro has huuuge arsenal of AOE and debilitating CC for zerg play with a nice survivability with swarm elite and f skill 2ndary hp bar and skills. Thieves can really contribute sharing venoms that ice….stone….immobilize…and poison with a few hits of each randomly distributed and can also dish out some nice condi/dmg with daggerstorm.

@ARGANTHIUM
Ok : A) if u DONT rely on mug as part of your BURST build than you are just doing it wrong. that is a fact. u cant burst without mug. or u can bug just wont down many if any. i didnt say it was useless. i said one skill was decent and thats whirl. since u think its amazing ill tell u why its not. mud skill sux….gets 1 hit max and no conditions usually. feathers….its ok …extra blind not much of a game changer might help u get away tho. consume plasma…heavenly but since its a 1.5 sec cast time or so… its not really good unless ur invis …..its best used for the fury and also not a game changer. bleed one is horrendous….1 minute? pfft thats like no dmg espeically isnce it will be removed in 6 seconds or less guaranteed. and so on and so forth. whirl is nice like i said but leaves you open for attack and requires your oppoenent to be dumb. (we are talking pvp here) all are usually very nicely in PVE dont get me wrong.

and yes burst builds ARE dumb….my point being. but i love mug as a finisher or a way to really get them under 50% so u can use some of the good dmg from a thief.

mesmer / ele / engi f1 f2 f3 f4 are GREAT even without specs. u could say that even 1 of them compares with f1 from a thief on a pretty much even plateau! dont split hairs with me bc thats pretty much true! if its not the others are stronger than the thieve’s f1. anyway let me compare WITH traiting bc without steal is still weaker: lets compare a guardian bc they have the weaker of most the f’s skills (in comparison to engi mesmer ele etc)

guardians f1+ f2+f3 :
Multiple huge ally heal(s)
Full self heal
Multiple ally Aegis.
Self self Aegis
Multiple ally protection(s)
Self Protection
Random Aegis
Random Burns
Multiple huge ally burns
Self huge burn
Remove 3 self conditions
Shorter Random Boons/burns
Self Stability
AOE burning
Stun break
Multiple self Rretaliation
Self might
Self regeneration
Multiple ally regeneration
Decreased Recharge of F’s
Conditional Recharge of F’s

Thief’s one and only f1:
1 sec stun to one enemy
fury swift might for allies nearby
get one random skill from one eneymy
steal 2 boons from one enemy
deal dmg to one enemy
invis for 2 secs
poison to one enemy

:P fail. F1 is nearly useless other than mug. nobody uses trickery these days …even on condition builds….the traitline sux. stun is no good in condi builds….nvm im getting side tracked here. point is in comparison to the less powerful of the several i mentioned…..thief does not even come close to stacking up. its undeniable. u might LIKE steal….i mean i do …its fun…nice gap closer and finishing dmg on a surprise. but as it it sux compared to other classes. i would in a sec trade it for the necros 2nd Hp bar. in a flash for AOE mesmer dmg or mad protection from a guardian or mad skills like an engi that copies similarly from my utilities (imagine that 2 shadow steps 2 caltrops 2 shadow refuges of sorts) you take all the f’s away from all the classes. you might notice how a thief is then in “god” mode. without the f1s in a mesmer….they cant even hope to beat a thief. right now they just run in circles and dodge while buffed up phantasms do dmg burst then shatter boom boom dead if ur even semi close.

and ps you cant get into an enemy zerg unless they are super small and you have 19-23k hp. i run 22.45k hp and even i have an incredibly hard time getting out without SS even then im almost dead. maybe ur zergs are small but oursare 60 v 60 to 100 v 100. make me a video of going into a zerg like that and doing something “helpful” not just porting in and out lol ill be impressed. tell u what. u do that and cast 3 cluster bombs ill bow down and call you king. maybe if we had 3-5 secs of invulnerability like every other class we could. we dont have very much flexibility as you call it endless. our evades are .25 secs on skills that take 1 second to 1.5 seconds to complete. they arent true evades….but debilitating skills setting us up to be killedhelplessly as we finish them. hopefully this patch they touch up on such stuff but heres hoping. btw. everything i said above is fact and non mere opinion…..all made with comparison…. i mean guardian got what like 5 to 1 skill ratio from f skills? and affected up to like 50 allies and 50+ enemies…..thief can do 5 allies and 1 enemy with f skill(). HUUUUUGE differential. thief f1 is good in maybe a 1 v 1. but 1 v1 has no place in this game….yet. once we have 1 v 1 tournements and play styles or places to do it where we get rewarded…. people have no reason to complain about thieves. they actually need a slight defense/slippery(ability) boost so we can really contribute to zerg v zerg without using the stay back sb venom share Hp build.

and now going back down to 3 secs. they over did themselves bc they compensated for the lag loss

oh and even if we get mobility. will it be worth it? i think if they trippled all the evade times that would be a start. 1/4 is the most common….rarely a .5 second evade. so death blossom…flanking strike….pistol whip all take long time to actually happen but only have a short evade. that actually leaves u vulnerable and open to a big attack or combo etc etc. hope they really thought about this b4 acting.

Arganthium.5638:

Personally, if we get Mug nerfed for enhanced mobility, then I support this patch with every ounce of my un-soul.

u reallize mug is 35% of burst builds. it will destroy EVERY burst build and also destroy steal. every steal skill other than whirl is pretty much crappy. eh yeah they are neat….sorta cool. hey its a thief he steals! cool! but guess what compare it to mesmers shatters skills and cloens f1 f2 f3 f4. eles spam skills for hours…….warriors go bonkers…..engineers gett better skills than their actually utilities in some cases. necros get a 2nd hp bar…..so nerf the dmg. go ahead……. then we really dont compare. oh we get no blocks no dmg reduction no invulnerabilty for a few secs. our evades are 1/4 second usually. and we can be hit while invised and aoe’d to death. thieves are not a viable class in WVW unless running venom share while spaming trick shot all day (yay:/) hope they dont nerf steal. i dont run a burst build but ill tell u what. its really hard to finish some characters and that 3-4k dmg really helps. especially with all the dmg reduction…heals…blocks that other classes have.

FOR EXAMPLE: lets say your old school or just not smart and like to run d/d burst thief in wvw . you CnD but he blocks with aegis or soemthing….then u dodge his attack then u try CnD again but he dodges bc its insanely slow and u can see it coming…..now u are fully outo f intiative lol! welll maybe 1-2 from regen. lets steal! IF it hits you get a few thousand damage! ok so in that scenario u only did like 3-5k dmg and guess what…ur out of intiative and about to die. on the other hand against a slow reacting player without any buffs or anti cc or anti stun or evades etc etc etc you could do 5k or slightly more then CnD for 6k then backstab for 7-8k. but guess what…IF that kills them…its ONE kill then ur done…DEAD if its a zerg v zerg fight. who cares if a thief can kill you 1 v 1. it means NOTHING. might hurt ur pride but guess what…YOU (as another class) can contribute 10x more in a guild/zerg fight which proves everythign in wvw. so a guardian is technically more powerful overall than a thief ….can survive longer and do 5x more dmg bc its alive doing dmg and not deadon the ground. if you look at it as dmg per time played. a thief really isnt int he top. they must take long breaks……die alot…. etc or just roam for small fights. i think alot of people are just untalented and really just dont keep things in perspective. try look at things from a different point of view or with different objectives reprioritized!@

urbanevil.7145:

10/30/0/15/15 – Is quite fun with a s/d setup.

short term. u need to run a lil more intiative management. i usually tell people choose between gaining extra intiative or extra dodges. dodges usualya re better than the 3 extra intiative. i like 10 20 20 20 0 for s/d choose 2 initiative per steaalth ….remove condis on stealth. 2 intiative per 10 secs. mug. furious retaliaition. vigor on roll.

this lets u dodge alot. keep intiative up for infiltrators strike and also lets you run d/p as a backup! which increases even more options. unfortunately thieves get screwed on a 2nd weaponset. so atleast with these 2 u can mesh both builds. use mug as a finisher/close to finisher. so much better like that. or u can use it at 60% or less to give poison to chop their heal by 33%

Scarn.6810:

Travlane.5948:

you can. my s/d with backup d/p is the best dueling build a thief can have. that said the only thing that really hurts it is AOE/CC and range spike. thats why i run daggerstorm and not basiliks venom. personally bv only works on non thieves and non mesmers so too risky. i like DS as it gets me alot of back drops. i also use dancing dagger sometimes. running thru with your zerg…keep swining and running try hit everything once. dont need to focus on one person all the time.

I run daggerstorm as well. I’m definitely still working on how to best run in a zerg since everyone’s doing more of that now. Shortbow is great for the blast finisher and then I’ll switch back to S/D and try to hassle the stragglers.

sword can hit more than 1 person while running thru with a zerg. but personally i like p/d 5 0 30 30 5 spec with bleed build. so much better bc even a zerg cant stop me with this build. i run daggerstorm. Shadowstep. Shadows refuge. and SoS/Blind powder which i switch before i go in battle. run 50% speed in steawlth.

Acaelus.2138:

Travlane.5948:

s/d can own d/p much more easily in 1 v 1 thief v thief. IF and ONLY IF….the thief using the s/d has super fast reflex and experience. s/d is the single most hardest build to play in the game. if played right …people think you cheat.

^This. Build is irrelevant if you don’t know how to maximize toolset efficiency with s/d. Requiring more instantaneous decisions during the fight than other weapon sets. Very rewarding when you down your opponent, without BS or HS, though.

yes but with this build its harder to land a hit/deal with than d/p! thats why i use both at the same time with a hybrid between both builds! D/p cant deal with certain builds. the ones it cant i notice s/d does better. and vice versa. its incredibly hard to learn and there is no equivocal build that is as hard to master.

cool ill check it out on youtube.

Ghostwolf.9863:

d/p lacks AoE damage, and is vulnerable to AoE damage that ignores blind, is highly vulnerable to ranged attacks, and as the rest of the thief builds besides S/P and S/D it’s vulnerable to knockdowns, stuns & daze, it’s vulnerable to retaliation builds and other anti direct dmg builds.

In return to this, it has strong single target damage while being able to evade other close range targets, it is/can be anti condition like what every other profession can be
built for. It can be permanently in stealth but a thief running around permanently
in stealth is harmless, blackpowder>heartseeker can be interrupted by any build
with a ranged interrupt and heartseeker can be knocked down.
Backstab can easily be countered by dodging or jumping and turning around a lot
to make it hard for the thief to successfully attack you from behind.

Just because thieves aren’t facerollable by every build in the game doesn’t make them
imbalanced. And blackpowder doesn’t help you against GS warriors, d/d elementalists and shatter mesmers.

Edit: forgot to add, that using stealth through Blackpowder>Heartseeker is very clunky, and wont allow you to stack stealth more than 1 time with many enemies, critters and neutral/unfriendly npcs around. which gives you a total of 2½ seconds of active stealth. In situations like these Dagger offhand is supperior, since it allows you to re-enter stealth smoothly with cloak&dagger as soon as your stealth ends.
While with D/P you’ll end up with 0 initiative unless you are able to get 3 heartseekers through your smoke field.

i have to agree. d/p is my backup when dueling however…. it is very prone to being owned by ranged and AOE skills. that said its really like the 2nd/3rd best build available for thieves. p/d bleed invis 5 0 30 30 5 is the best ….2nd being sword build and 3rd D/P. many wont agree with this. that is bc they think that skirmishes are everything even though the prove/do/change nothing. zerg play is the most important. surviving skirmishes to help get to or cap for the zerg is 2nd most important. avoiding 1 v 1s / winning 1 v 1s is the 3rd most IMO. add in capping camps with number 2. D/P gets owned in zerg play. VERY low survivability! dont care what anyone says. blah blah blah pick and choose battles. well picking 1 person and doing 20k dmg to him isnt that impressive in z v z …….an ele/ranger does more even tho they spread the dmg out. bleed thief too with cluster bombs /bleeds and caltrops. area blinds …….what!? d/p can dot hat too? not really…u go intot he middle of a zerg with that build and ur dead most often. then ur putting out 0 dmg. so to recap….

d/p = best dueling build
p/d = best all around WVW build
s/d = best suvivability/dmg build
d/d= best burst build against a non thief/mesmer/guardian

lvis.3824:

Doomdesire.9365:

Removing a condition every 3s in stealth: In all honesty, this trait is overpowered. Reason being is that it turns certain thief builds(D/P, for example) invincible against condition builds. A D/P build I used to use was absolutely ridiculous in this. I would run healing in stealth and condition cure in stealth, and not once did I lose to a condition build. That says alot. The trait renders so many condition classes useless against the thief. Doesn’t help that it removes one condition the second you enter stealth. This needs serious consideration.

Black Powder + Heartseeker: Another thing I truely think was overpowered. With a X/D build, it’s easy to deny stealth(essentially one of the only waves to kill a proper thief) by dodging cloak and dagger. The BP+HS combo totally defies this.. On demand perma stealth, at any time, with zero counter. On top of that add a ranged blind attack and blind field makes it absolutely ridiculous in certain scenarios. This ignores that fact that running with a fellow D/P friend, you can essentially share stealth if one person lays down a BP. I do believe there needs to be more initiative cost to B/P, while buffing the condition blind itself to balance out other Pistol offhand builds while adjusting D/P.

P/P: This weapon set needs some love. As it stands, P/P is useless without a blind buff or access to stealth.

Oh yes, remove a condition for 9 Initiative is clearly OP ..

Also you forget that you have to
a) run D/P
b) spend points in SA traitline which will lower dmg quite a lot.

And no, it does not render condition builds useless, if thiefs would not have this trait we would just be freekills for those
mega hard to play condition spammers !

Basic thief trait setup + weaponsets when running shadow’s embrace is

10/30/30/0/0 D+P .

This setup does more then 50% less DMG with standard burst combo then 25/30/0/0/15 with D+D.

So this is absolute fine !

Infact, D+P with 30pkt in SA is finally another way to play thief instead of the mainstream burst specc, you can even “outplay”
other classes using this setup.

Of course not as good as our beloved elementalists or ng’s but its a start.

actually most thieves with d/p use 20 points in acro. :P those 2 or 3 extra intiative per 10 secs really help in a fight. plus doulbe the dodges with extra refil plus vigor. its half your defense right there.

malikah.6280:

I will check it and may use it on swap or d/p for 2nd ^^

u got it half right use s/d to open for dazes….. etc …use d/p as finishing tool or backup when u get in trouble and need more of a defensive build. (yes D/P is defensive bc stealth is our ONLY defense :P )

i personally love it. however there are plenty of times it just procs revealed and no invis which is rather annoying. seems to have the same bug as blidning powder…..hrm oh wait arent they the same :? :P

Geiir.7603:

Well. Most rangers tend to stay outside of the group and most of you are pretty squishy. This is exactly those kind of targets any good thief are looking for. But hey! Rangers aren’t my first target: Thieves are. If there are no thieves around I’ll go for the Ranger.

Just try to bring a melee weapon and you’ll have much more fun fighting thieves. We’re pretty weak when first CC’d and in melee range.

i agree with this. thief is first target bc they go down as fast as an upscale lol and alos have highest dmg output making them dangerous too……ive seen plenty of good GS rangers have amazing 1 v 1s. no excuses.

thief v thief is almost always by choice / setup a d/p v d/p which means it both players are good its a draw. the only way somebody wins is if they get lucky a few hits in a row or lag. d/p takes advantage of knowing where your opponent its and them NOT knowing where you are. which is taken away in thief v thief. :P i did a d/p duel once against another d/p. took like 12-15 mins and just quit. was no point. too much stun breaks too much invis.

this is the ONLY reason i would like them to debuff skill 5 on pistol or slightly change it to give only 1 invis. its so annoying/boring to fight another good thief.

sit on a couch? :P what is this a guild?

iNaddict.8021:

I would have to disagree with you there though. I maintain that no matter how big of numbers you see.. a thief backing off to recuperate is a thief doing 0 dps.. i would at least go with cond removal and shadow protection in the SA tree to be able to stay in the fight..

The problem is that no matter how good you are.. without toughness or vit.. when you get hit.. (and you will.. even if its just once) you go SPLAT.. and now a liability for your team because you need to rez or help get rezzed..

true true so we need a defensive buff they owe us right?

the above also did a 2 v 1 against TWO thieves that were pretty good with d/p. won too.
i must mention his BACKUP was d/p tho.

s/d can own d/p much more easily in 1 v 1 thief v thief. IF and ONLY IF….the thief using the s/d has super fast reflex and experience. s/d is the single most hardest build to play in the game. if played right …people think you cheat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3wipl5GEu4 heer is somebody about half way to mastered just to give u an idea.

Silver.4798:

I personally prefer my S/D (used 10/30/30/0/0, but am playing with 0/30/20/20/0 now) for my solo WvW roaming, I love the mobility, 2 on demand condition removals, and the sustained damage. Won’t have the burst of d/x though, but BS was never my play style.

-The thing I absolutely love about S/D that I learned a few months ago-
Chasing down people trying to run away, hehehehe. Shadow Step + infiltrator strike = if you think you are safe from me because you are way out of any projectile range, you got something else coming your way!

if u wanna know the best its honestly p/d bleed invis 5 0 30 30 5 …there is no comparison to survivability ….can play in large groups or even 1 on 1. d/ kitten lightly better in dueling i will say that…. s/d is my favorite and a mix of dmg …confusion….and survivability. make sure to have an extra weapon to stack bloodlust/corruption

Sunflowers.1729:

Edit: You know what, I’m gonna get verbally attacked again.

So…basically I agree with the OP.

me and sunflowers USUALLY do battle in here alot buuuuuuuuut. i have to agree here. i dont think the d/p way was what thieves were meant to be and i think it should be change just a lil. probably in skill 5 black powder so you can only enter invis once. i think that will force people to really leave invis a lil more bc going in and out is what we are meant to do…..that said we shoudl still be able to go invis for longer time incase we wanna escape! i do think even if this doesnt happen….we need blind to be buffed…or our defense etc. we cant play in wvw right now as is……and if u say we can its bc u do small skirmishes which mean nothing

Burnfall.9573:

To the Thief class, why is The Ranger class always your 1st/Primary kill in WvW?
I also would like to ask other classs the same question as well.

If i tell you this my fellow thieves will kill me. half the reason you die …well almost half….is bc your pet. it allows us to CnD VERY easily lol and just ownage follows. try putting your crappy pets away. or just use them for KDs. rooting.

the ONLY thing that COULD be op on a thief is skill 5 on d/p. im a thief and would prefer not playing with it although we kidn of need it bc we always get kitten in zergs so its all we have. id rather play more skirmishing style and really get into some battles but we have 0 defense 0 dmg reduction so not muchof a choice. go s/d and d/p as backup or vice versa . 0 20 30 20 0 or 10 10 30 20 0

its a dagger/pistol build that runs decent dmg but not super high and runs traits in crit…shadow arts…and acrobatics. theres plenty of it you can read. if he was going in and out like you say they he was a hacker. you cfan only go back invis AFTER 4 seconds of being visible…..this being called the revealed debuff (you only get this if u leave the full duration of invisbility early…aka ATTACK) so the trick is….in any pvp…BRING CC SKILLS mesmer phantasm build can beat d/p too. just make sure you time your dodges about 2.5 secs after they go invis. you will get used to when they attack and where they like to go. it usually the same with most thieves.

Scarn.6810:

I’ve been playing S/D since October or so (pretty much once I started in WvW) and 10/30/30/0/0 is still a very viable build, even with revealed being 4s.

Pre-patch I could pretty much just roll through any sized group and take down a few people, 2v1 and 3v1 were not much of a challenge, and 1v1 was a joke. That was OP.

Post-patch the same build is just as much fun, but it takes a lot more patience. I can’t just run in and execute a combo and get a kill, I have to take my time and play off my opponent a little more. I find that a lot more fun.

Flanking strike has a nice spot at the end of an auto-attack chain now. The daze will last the auto-attack chain, then an FS will keep you untouched until revealed expires.

Infiltrator’s strike and shadowstep are still the bread and butter though. Any condition heavy opposition is a joke and any melee can be evaded indefinitely. You also become the best run down assassin in the game. Shadowstep -> Infiltrator’s Strike -> Steal will cover an insane amount of ground almost instantly.

Unfortunately, I don’t get the crazy amounts of kills I used to with this build, but it is a ton of fun to play and that’s what video games are for.

you can. my s/d with backup d/p is the best dueling build a thief can have. that said the only thing that really hurts it is AOE/CC and range spike. thats why i run daggerstorm and not basiliks venom. personally bv only works on non thieves and non mesmers so too risky. i like DS as it gets me alot of back drops. i also use dancing dagger sometimes. running thru with your zerg…keep swining and running try hit everything once. dont need to focus on one person all the time.

prolly felt like 2. but naw

Shemsu.8721:

Mug is 504 dmg base, Backstab at 808, the third chain in warriors axe combo is 858, which one is greater? Crippling strike is 437, so mug does slightly more damage than a thief auto attack, but considerably less damage than a warrior AA. I run s/d also, though i dont put 30 points into the condition line for a weapon that has no damaging conditions. I still saying spending 30 trait points for at best a 2 second daze on a 32 second cooldown is a terrible trait

its 1.5 secs at best :P and the tactical strike is a 3 sec at best with proper increases

Sil.4560:

Dasorine.1964:

And yet stealth is not a guarantee unlike other people mechanics so how can it be low risk when theres always the possibility someone will just kill you while your in it?

Speaking from a WvW perspective, it’s rather close. Getting owned? Stealth => run…99% chance of escape.

agreed with what sil wrote. in a 1 v 1. but more like 80% in a zerg its like 5-10%. unless of course everyone is far off and arent close at all . yeah then its 99%. all circumstancial tho. even a warrior ahs a 99% chance if he sees a zerg comign at him.

JqHades.2461:

Myself and many thieves (and players of other classes) I know seem to think it would be a good idea to allow thieves the use of rifles for sneaky, long-ranged combat. The abilities would likely be something akin to sniper skills, and I believe most would need to root the thief in place (as in a sniper lining up a shot) and perhaps one stealth ability that would allow movement. I’m interested to see the opinions of other players and maybe a few devs if I’m lucky.

love it buty root would kill us. only reason is you really cant see beyond herm 2500 ft ish? guessing here sorry if im off. only takes 2 secs to close 3600 ft
i LOVE the idea tho.

best buff we get is swift+fury.

how would intensity stack? what u have to swing 2x instead of 1 to get rid of the condition? i may mis-type certain words on my tablet. but its written as said without proper punctuation/grammar. who i was referring to was not understandable bc even if you read it….it makes no sense. if you read mine…it may not be perfect. but its understandable. then again the way people speak is usually never correct in a perfect grammar sense.

FOR EXAMPLE :::: \
“If I were you, I would not advise being the first to cast stones at one’s grammar skills.
As for the main topic, I think the guy that suggested blind should stack intensity rather than duration is on the correct track. It would, probably, require little adjustment to the base duration. Overall, However, it would be a more desirable mechanic.”

If a collegiate Professor of English were to correct/rewrite your message it would look more like that. About 20 fixes. Just sayin’ :p not picking on you…just pointing out nobody has used grammar well in their posts here….not even I. And that is coming from sombody with a bachelors.

Grimwolf.7163:

Initiative has at least as many problems as benefits.
A huge example is weapon swapping.
Other classes can blow through all attacks, then swap weapons and do it all again.
Thieves don’t even have enough Initiative to blow through every attack once on a single weapon set, and even if they could it would take far longer to “recharge” than other classes.

wow very well said. our 2nd weapon set should come with its own intiative bar! great idea! bc when ur a thief u really only have 1 set with a few extra skills basically that u cant use.

SwickHobo.5096:

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

well, for we also have initiative as our class mechanic. we are the only class that can spam abilities, if all the complaints about how op HS spam is have escaped you. we can do things like evasion spam with certain builds that other classes have no hope of doing because of our flexible resource system. the problem comes when people ignore initiative because it is in the background. if you main a thief it is far less obvious than other mechanics, but no less powerful. also, as for modifying steal “only mug gets chosen” is full of crap. I know of several builds that take bountiful theft and/or thrill of the crime. honestly the only steal trait I never see is the daze on steal from 30 points into trickery.

^ Mostly this, but also:

IMO u have two F1’s. You steal. Then u have a bundle.

Rangers have two “F1’s as well imo”. They have their F2 active ability on both pets. Their F1 and F3 is more cheap and easy way to control a bad A.I

Warriors also have two F1’s. They have two burst skills.

Just be glad you have the initiative system as well as your “two” f1’s.

i agree with this but i will contribute one thing. all but like 1 or MAYBE 2 of those are good bundles…..warrior whirl and consume plasma……everything else we just get rid of so we can have steal back when its ready. sometimes i even just get rid of it bc steal is better than whirl in most fights bc i can whirl and take dmg for 4-5 seconds during that whirl! too dangerous……especially if they attack attack attack attack and then do a 3 sec immobilize right at the end then attack attack attack again. kinda like other games the could make an F2 and steal does what it does but f2 becomes a random skill of the opponents or random WEEAPON not some crappy gunk that nobody stands in….and you can use it/have it do dmg according to whatever you have traited. either way you look at it we are the class with the worst F……untraited of course. if u add in mug then its one of the top few. but untraited is what you ahve to account for bc not all builds can use mug. i run 0 20 30 20 0 on s/d and d/p mix so i cant :P

Sunflowers.1729:

The initiative system is so much better than the steal mechanic:

While it is just another way to manage skills – it means your choices are always open. Someone casting a powerful ability/heal? Daze them. If they try something else like that – just daze them again!

Of course it means you can’t spam skills – but if you manage initiative properly it means that that clutch Head Shot or CnD can always be up for you to use (this is an oversimplification)

So it’s not just another way to manage skills – it adds a lot of depth to the gameplay. Unlike steal which is just a stun break and another possibly useless ability.

this is a very good point. alot of non thieves have a misconception about this. intiative management is very important other than in d/d BS burst

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

well, for we also have initiative as our class mechanic. we are the only class that can spam abilities, if all the complaints about how op HS spam is have escaped you. we can do things like evasion spam with certain builds that other classes have no hope of doing because of our flexible resource system. the problem comes when people ignore initiative because it is in the background. if you main a thief it is far less obvious than other mechanics, but no less powerful. also, as for modifying steal “only mug gets chosen” is full of crap. I know of several builds that take bountiful theft and/or thrill of the crime. honestly the only steal trait I never see is the daze on steal from 30 points into trickery.

every GOOD build uses MUG. unless running condi and venom share then they run other stuff but thats a support build. like use sb and stay the FK back. and 2 skills kills ALL of our intiative so we can SPAM skills. with d/p we can do 3 skills then wait for regen then do like 2 MAYBE 3 more. but thats not spamming. eles spam 2-5 for hours…days…weeks without stopping…this is a fact. lil off on that comment but it seems like we always haveosmethign to use. d/d uses everything in 2 secs and d/p evenly s[paces it out.

sunflowers/swickhobo were on the other posts as non thief ….thief haters. they will blow this up with hate bc they cant play against thieves bc they arent very good.

funny thing i just fought a guardian i couldnt beat. i also couldnt lose bc i didnt attack him directly. he had a full burning/retal build. Power condi toughness build with splash of vitality. i had 22.5k and he got me to half and barely hit me. im like wtf? oh he must have the defense armor on . couldnt attack for shiiiiit. but yeah confusion/retal is slightly too strong. if its up…and you ahve lots of power…and heals…u cant win. u have to Knock them down/remove retal. prolly a good job for mesmers/necros.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Someone posted a similar thread earlier and I will give him/her credit for the idea when I find who it is. I feel like they touched on the subject but I want to go further into it.

Mesmers get 4 different shatters.
Elementalists get 4 different attunements
Engineers get 4 different skills based on their utilities
Guardians get 3 virtues which become life saving when traited properly.
Necros get a second HP bar and 4 new skills.
Rangers get a wide range of abilities with pets and their abilities. I’ve seen tanky rangers burst for 7k damage with their pet in sPvP.

Thieves get a shadow step that gives a nice skill also. Great. This is good.

But, we have a whole trait line dedicated to reducing the cooldown on this ONE skill.

We have many traits scattered everywhere dedicated to improving this ONE skill (only Mug gets chosen, which further shows how traiting deep for just one skill is useless).

Not to mention this skill doesn’t really add anything unique or interesting to the thief other than the handful of skills it offers.

What’s the point of all of the traits and CD reduction and yadda yadda yadda just to affect one skill that isn’t nearly as effective as the simple attunement swap of an ele or the 4 amazing shatter skills a mesmer has.

The person who posted the original thread thought it would be a good idea to remove deceptions from the game and make them a thief’s F1-4 skills. Many people said this would be overpowered because it is like giving thieves 3 free utilities. But, what if in some alternate universe, mesmer shatters were utility skills but they only kept mindwrack for F1 and had to use utilities for the others? Or if elementalists had only one attunement but had to slot the others in utilities? So what I’m saying is that we shouldn’t look at possibly giving all of the deception skills to a thief as F1-F4 as overpowered because they were once utilities when you can imagine if a mesmer or an ele was in the same spot as us.

Please give feedback and post. Thanks for reading.

i tried to say this too if u read it. just thief haters hating . whats that? we ahve 3 less skills than everyone else? oh no we cant have the same as everyone else or we are overpowered….whats that we cant have defense? or blocks? or burns? or f2 f3 f4? or confusion? or ice? or protection? or stability? oh wait we get like 30% more dmg on average than everyone else? oh ok yeah i guess thats cool? oh whats that we also get this skill that for 3-4 secs we are hard to hit but take same dmg? oh i guess that makes up for the rest since it helps me escape rather than kill .

you are 100% right about what you say. steal…alone…kinda sux….well i do like whirl… that one is actually beneficial. the rest i usually just throw away to get rid of real quick so i can get stealw back asap. especially at 45 secs bc the trickery line of traits is just horrendous.

post on brotha!

hardest to play is s/d. here is somebody id say about 75% to mastering it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3wipl5GEu4 enjoy i use s/d and d/p myself. i personally like the 2 sec stun (3.5secs for me) on tactical strike.

Rusha.4725:

Volrath.1473:

graphic bug when in stealth and shadowstep: the character appears visible but the stealth boon is still there and no one else can see you but its very annoying having to look to see if i have the stealth boon or not just to be sure if im actually in stealth or not…

this happens very often also the most annoying bug lately.

confusing but doesnt hurt u

Rafahil.2857:

All sorts of things with Bountiful Theft. Like when it removes all stacks of might on an enemy it only grants you and allies one stack with a lower duration. It doesn’t do what it says it does.

yeah i cant tell you how many times ive tried that and it gives u 1! wtf good is that?

wish u didnt show this :/ i run the same but i run mesmer runes and sigil of paralyzation.. ive tried a build where i have 30 in trickery. 20 in SA 20 in ACRO you can run intial strike 1 intiative per skil 1 hit at 7% chance…. and also same the rest as urs but also thrill of crime and sleight of hand. with the food and armor/accs. you get amazing crit dmg still and also get about 3.5 sec stun from tactical 1.5 secs from steal. and run d/p 2ndary as you do …..head shot can do 1 sec stun. so with the intiative regen u can really own every heal. big skill etc. very powerful if run right. can be a lil weaker if run by a bad player.

Zikory.6871:

Travlane, If your trying to do it by your self, yes you would have to spec for it I guess but in the OP he states a group. So if thats the case 3 thieves could use smoke screen and short bow and rotate. 2 thieves could do it if they trait Master of Deception.

Also I might be a bias because I’m a bit of a Yisish fan boy but his 1vgroups and zerg surfing does more then you think. Where its not game changing, if 1 thief is keeping 3+ people from doing anything useful for long amounts of time, hes helping his server. Being able to survive in a zerg is also helpful because your able to add confusion with in the zerg. If they are on the move you’ll easily stop 3-5 of them to try and kill you, thus stringing out the zerg a bit. Like I said its not game changing and won’t win the match for you, but its not for nothing.

even if they can stay invis forever.. it takes every resource to do so. which isnt causing dmg and u cant cap while invis . also @ yisish videos….yishis is another good thief. really good. cant take that away from him. but the people he was playing were rather…ordinary/lack luster. if u are w good thief its the kind of people we prey on and quick. infact he runs 20 30 20 which is what i run on my s/d similarly.

i knew ud dodge my point ….which u dont know bc u wont let me get to it. please answer the question.

taril …only if on flat terrain. ifin a valley or around rocks. the ccamera angle is very debilitating. its rather tough on many cases. i think they should let us bring out the max distance from camera a lil more. seems too close.

PS. plz fix eles downd skill so they cant re enter towers. if u think about it 30 eles could defend any tower against 100 people just but AOEing the front and doing quick quick dmg then misting back inside to a group of 5 others reviving people. rinse …repeat.

all they have to do is make it so invis=unstompable. skill 2 should invis AND move you. wait isnt there another skill like that? oh yeah its mesmers downed skill they get invis…teleport AND a clone . we just move a lil :P fail!

@Aleth its kinda funny isnt it? i mean the fact that half the people commenting on thieves arent …..well….thieves lol. go back to hate on your ele/mesmer channel or w.e. you are. pffft thieves are underpowerd if anything. a few CC and its GG. if u cant CC a thief in 4 secs u are a bad player. period.

no thieves die in zerg fighting which is EVERYTHING in wvw. 1 v 1 is stupid. but if u must see a necro fight 1 v 1 …. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS7oykd31MA there ya go bud. and WoD is amazing. u avhe a zerg of 60 and 6 of them are necros spreading out a few WoD’s then thats devastating to the ENTIRE ENEMY ZERG’S MELEE FORCE. get real. 60 secs is PERFECT for WoD. its not a 1 v1 skill perhaps but niether are many other skills like cluster bomb. its more for zergs. L2P. fail. and what kind of a troglodyte necro waits in a well all day. LOL FAIL!

Jarettellis.7813:

Love the D/P build man, gave me the idea to use it as a secondary weapon set for my main P/D roamer in WvW.

Ran your D/P in some hot joins for spvp, and loved it (played a little asuran so it was even funnier since it seemed the bigger opponents couldnt keep track of me out of stealth).

Oh and that little trick: BV—>pop the signet—>Black powder—>Heartseeker than steal in midair to land the mug hit, heartseeker than BS is just too much fun. Love using that combo in WvW.

P.S. (couldnt remember if you talked about that little trick or if it was someone else) but keep up the good work

cant BS after mug and HS bc both remove stealth.

Dasorine.1964:

Ahh fair enough outside of stacking 2 shadow refuges to skip twilight arbour last year I’ve never really bothered with a long duration stealth

^^^^ See? ^^^^ exactly what he said.

nobody is dumb enough to go up to 20 seconds. there is no cap in my opinion bc of that fact. you can forever invis but u lose all your intiative doing so and have to spec for it. helpful but not really killer. workswell in d/p i guess but also having 14k hp sux in wvw. u die. dont care about yisish videos. they are almost 100% irrelevant. 2 v 1s and 3 v 1s have no bearing on wvw. no points. and doesnt help anyone by winning these. hence thief defense is almost non existent . sure they can survive zergs sometimes. but they also dont put a hurtin on them either. and surviving doesnt help anyone but yourself from walking back 25 secs or less :P