Guild Wars 2

draner.5213:

As it stands the duration of revealed is not overly important. This is because it is a debuff that you cannot do anything about. If you see the revealed icon it means you cannot stealth, until how long? until it’s gone. You don’t really need to watch it, simply check for it when you consider stealthing. Is it there? yes – don’t stealth. no – go for it

Timers on normal conditions let you decide if it’s worth it to cleanse or wait it out, revealed you can’t do anything about, so a duration indication isn’t overly helpful.

100% wrong. u wanna get your CnD for the milli second that revealed ends. adding that 4th second killed a few builds too! like 50% of dmg and almost as much defense! so if 1 second extra on revealed can do that. its more than a casual look to see if its still there…..its pivotal…..game changing in fact.

you are right its not hard to keep track of. if thats the ONLY thing ur keeping track up. but like i said…track stealth plus:’

Enemy HP
Enemy conditions
Enemy moves to predict what they are going to do so you can dodge/respond
Personal Conditions
Personal Cooldowns
Personal endurance
Map to make sure nobody is coming in.
Taking/Giving Vent commands.
Taking/Giving Map commands for pugs.

point is it wouldnt hurt to put in a lil bar that shows us when its getting low. yes its easy to see BY ITSELF but with everything a GOOD player has to watch it makes it a lil difficult. especially for those whom are getting older/have sight problems. it IS a very small icon. and if thinking selfishly yeah u may be fine and not pay attention to the other stuf but most the community would love it. especially since its not any tactical advantage. i think this is a very plausable and very easily implementable idea into the game. GO DEVS!

ahhh frenzy! so it was a 9k backstab iot sounds like. and if 5-6k is your low ur talking wvw. bc 11k shouldnt be a high in SPVP bc of the dmg nerf on everyone to amek it last, i also run that build about 25% of the itme

they could implement a bar that depletes as the timer goes down. i mean it is alot to watch for…your opponents hp…actions to know whats coming…his duration of conditions…your own conditions …who else may come around…..your own hp….your cooldowns….and stealth/revealed timers. wouldb e nice to have them on a blue bar off to the side that depletes with the time it has left so its a more subconcoius thing from periferal vision than having to look and guess how much is left from blinking. and yes i can count. b ut are you counting in head while in a zerg helping command with Vent? ortyping directions tothe pugs? it is alot. small changes really help.

i know the human is a racial. that said its still VERY similar. even if they didnt chagne how strong it was. atleast could change the radius. but the original point was that necros can be beef cakes/tanks and do it as one of the best! and yes 240 my bad but splitting hairs now. point is its alot lower than most of the other bests in game.

swinsk.6410:

Travlane.5948:

swinks is right but we arent useless….but close to it. and thats only in comparison to what other classes do in PVP. thiefs….eh if 8people put down ground skills or area CC its a thieves nightmare. just nto playable unless we go 22k hp and chill with sb. since backstab dmg is usually 5500 in spvp. and eeryone else DPS crits are like 3800 on high end. we arent exatly contributing AS much bc we can only do it for a moment. need to make us more sliperier in our traits i think. drop the 10% dmg in trickery and give us (50%) faster endurance regen. or some kind of thief armor that falls off after so much dmg (similar to necros life skill)

Your numbers you’ve stated here are really dependent on the build/runes you are using.

I have backstabbed people for over 22k in wvw as full burst against an up-leveled warrior.

In spvp I have backstabbed a warrior who was frenzied for 15k.

In spvp my backstab is anywhere from 5-6k to 9-11k depending on how bunkerish the opponent is.

The problem I have with the thief at the moment is that there is no “inbetween” build really.

Since the 3s got turned into 4s, it’s impossbile to run d/d as effective as d/p or even s/d.

That extra second kind of killed the semi-burst d/d thief.

hate to call bs but ive NEVER had any more than 12-13k on any lvl 80 zerker or non zerker build. 6500 roughly on steal sometiems more….7k on CnD …but its all armor specific . if u hit a lvl 80 for 22k he had noob armor on ….theres no way around that. if idk about spvp as 6500 is usually my max …but then again maybe i just dont fight many zerkers in there? idk . 4500-6500 is my norm max for BS in spvp. so steal for 2500 CND 4k adn 6k on backstab gets you to maybe 50% hp on a warrior and 50% on guardian due to lower dmg. then you are out of intiative and there on its all skill play by the thief. 4 secs will be going back in all but spvp ….mainly bc i think they refuse to admit and utter f up. but im just glad wvw is gonna be back. we are such fragile lil flowers. deadly thorns tho!

when they revert it to 3secs u shouldnt have a problem anymore. :/ try hang in there a lil while

ty swinks. its just a few players come on here bc they are new to game or have a high risk build in wvw/spvp. thieves are good at killing high risk builds but also have higher risk against those builds and almost as much if not HIGHER risk against defensive bunker builds! its lose lose for thief unless they get their burst off. thief is for the talented player. if you are not talented and quick fingered/reaction time then you will enver be good at thief. even then its still alot of dying if ur really getting into a fight.

HUGE AOE too! as big as any other!. when a thief turns into grenth for the chilling/poison. it lasts 2 secs and u have to be super close like 130 range(dagger range)

oh and thief is 280 recharge for a skill 1/3rd as strong and necro is 180 for 3x stronger. :P

im talking about plague elite. turn into a swarm etc.

Become a virulent cloud and inflict multiple conditions on foes you touch. Entering this form destroys all minions and removes other spectral effects.
Damage: 75
Poison: 1 s (84 damage)
Radius: 240
Duration: 20 s

Skill Recharge Description

Withering Plague Add bleeding to your plague.

Plague of Darkness Add blindness to your plague.

Plague of Pestilence Add cripple and weakness to your plague.

even if necros just use swarm elite…that is so devastating in spvp and so much extra hp….like double or more i heard. just the elite alone is great and also all the blinds …ice….dmg… poison etc. necros and do much more in SPVP than thieves.

Silferas.3841:

@Travlane: I am not saying your build is bad, I am saying it’s not viable, and there is a reason for that. There are basically two things you ought to do in tournament pvp. First is to hold and defend your points. In order to do that, you need a character that concentrates in defense and survival, and is therefore capable of remaining on the point, even if focused by 2 or more characters for a longer period of time WITHOUT allowing the enemy to decap it. That is why Guardians, with their constant blocks, healing dodge rolls and invulnerabilities are considered the best bunkers. Or rangers who can evade for about 60% of the total time they fight.

The second objective is to decap and take the nodes enemy holds. This needs to be done as fast as possible, otherwise reinforcements will arrive for the bunker, and you might not get the point at all. For this purpose, DPS roamers are the best choice. As much damage as possible in as short a period of time as possible. You cannot argue the abysmal difference in DPS of a condition thief and backstab burst by anything you could ever say.

There is a third type of setup people sometimes run, and that is support/healer (mainly bunker eles, but sometimes engies or guardians).

Either way, your build doesn’t fit into any of these roles. It doesn’t defend a point against/without the enemy capturing it. It doesn’t get the point nearly as fast as other builds do and it doesn’t offer any team support, therefore it’s not viable. It does kill people, that’s for sure, but it takes a prolonged fight to have the enemy bleed out, and some enemies are just downright impossible to kill.

Now, as to the solution of the thief survivability problem, the issue is much more complex than blindness being weak. While I still do strongly believe, that blindness fields need increase in radius, it’s also important to note, that thief already has some awesome damage mitigation options (like 15 trait points in acrobatics with withdraw as a heal and vigor on heal trait lets you dodge almost indefinitely), that if coupled with for example valkyries amulet would allow for some great playstyle options and good survivability. Now the problem is, that current meta-build (25/30/0/0/15) has such incredibly strong synergy, that just by taking those 15 points from first or last traitline (you obviously need 30 in critical strikes with valkyrie amulet). You may loose up to 30% damage output (23% exactly just on backstab) NOT counting the 20% + decrease in critical chance from berserker’s amulet. To many, this might seem like a solid trade-off for such an increase in survivability, but it’s not. Remember, this is a thief, even with 2600-ish armor, you gain maybe the ability to withstand 2 more decent hits from an enemy, and your only chance to win a fight, is to burst the enemy down before he gets to you. But now, you are critting 20% times less than before, your damage output is 25%ish lower and you have probably traded executioner for hidden killer, so those 20% extra under 50% health is not coming. All of this given away in exchange for not dying to crossfire in teamfights (slight exaggeration, but not that far-off). Ultimately, what thieves need to get, is to move some of that DPS potency down the trait lines, so that we can actually invest some of our traits into defensive trait-lines without completely killing our burst off. Make the 15 point difference between 10/30/0/15/15 (just an example) maybe 10% tops, not 23%+ and thieves won’t suffer nearly as much as they do now. Just let us access our other traits without ruining what we are.

i agree on the radius needs to be bigger especially on lbinding powder. should be like 600-900 max. i think its like 350 or so now (ghuessing) i wasnt blaming our survivbility on lack of a real blindness. was saying it was a step in the right direction without making us tanky and ruining or “visage”. without taking a big step they should try make blindness stay the full duration so you cant swing and miss to remove it. you should have to actually connect. thats a start. and make it a larger radius too.

also this is a similar build i play. mine is a lil better as i can do it with more on me in same small space however his is a lil faster at killing (little)

check it out.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Travlane.5948:

actually no blinding powder doesnt fire a bullet. its only an upclose blind with a small (guessing) 400 area radius.

Again, this isn’t true. You’re not paying attention to the ability when you use it. Test it in PvE. Stand away from a mob, target them, and use black powder. It actually shoots them. That’s why there’s a range listed on the tooltip.

And a 400 radius is quite large, it’s closer to 120.

I forgot to mention that smokescreen will also blind anyone who passes through it, so you can kite mobs through it to stack blinds. Players might not be as gullible for that though.

black powder fires a bullet. however blinding powder does not. i am 100% correct. it sounds like you just used the wrong word in your first message.. thats prolly where the disagreement comes from….but yes black powder shot does!

swinks is right but we arent useless….but close to it. and thats only in comparison to what other classes do in PVP. thiefs….eh if 8people put down ground skills or area CC its a thieves nightmare. just nto playable unless we go 22k hp and chill with sb. since backstab dmg is usually 5500 in spvp. and eeryone else DPS crits are like 3800 on high end. we arent exatly contributing AS much bc we can only do it for a moment. need to make us more sliperier in our traits i think. drop the 10% dmg in trickery and give us (50%) faster endurance regen. or some kind of thief armor that falls off after so much dmg (similar to necros life skill)

oh and necros have so much HP boosting skills its sick. i never kill GOOD necros super fast. the only time a thief can kill in 2 secs is if you have full…and i mean full zerk gear or you are a total upscale nub.

Moira Dryade.6498:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So why is this not ok but thief burst is?

Because there is play in thief burst. There is play there, and that spike isn’t a single attack that’s 150% your max HP in damage. Thieves need to execute a series of skills in a row, in which at any time the victim has the potential to mitigate or have some sort of play to save themselves or stop the thief. You just don’t see that with the 100nades stuff, or its a window so narrow that we as devs weren’t happy with the play from both sides of the equation as attacker/defender.

You Sir, don’t know what you are talking about! A thief needs only 2 skills to kill a necro in 1 or 2 seconds. An ape can do this. I can avoid 100 nades by dodging but i can’t dodge a thief in stealth. Port-damage + 1 hit and thats it. Get it! Fix that op lame class and stop searching for excuses. And next time please play against a good thief with your ranger and you’ll see (or not) that you can’t even hit him because before you can aim at him he is back in stealth. Learn to balance a game and remove bugs and such overpowerness. BTW i play a thief by myself and i definitly know it’s op. So not so much a thief-hater but someone who uses his brain to recognize it’s just op.

wierd how alot of people play necros man more times so than a thief in wvw and pvp huh? if u cant dodge a thief backstab ur a nub. sicne you are so bad i will tell you how. use ice to freeze them for the 3-4 secs and keep walking backwards. stand in the middle of your minion and he usually gets hit first. can also turn in a circle while in minion …even smaller chance. use ice then ferar or just fear. fight near a cliff. use the terrain. circle around a tree. but ur back up to a tower wall. when they go invis. cout 1 ….2 seconds….and at 2.5 secons roll backwards. when a thief goes invis backstep for 2 secs then run forwards for the last 2. these are all tricks i use. please L2P . and use CC when u can. and its GG. ur a bad player so before you hate ….get good . ty.

interesting comments . but thieves have had about what? 19nerfs since open date? need to fix the defense before reworking class mechanics. but interesting ideas……would help alot not having to use intiative to go invis although cnd is good dmg….although so so so slow. thieves i believe should have a faster attack with sword and with pistol autos.

@Kligan even that wont helpsometimes. its like even if the enemy has you targeted as soon as you click BP you are revealed . kinda creepy

ok ill explain it to you step by step so you cant contradict or side step.

QUESTION 1: Thief burst and Mesmer burst builds are pretty close in power/time per kill ? moreso for mesmers in spvp. do you agree?

posting this bc u will disagree bc i think it is probably in your nature. good aoe dmg too.

answer question then i can move to next part of why.

interesting. would have to reallocate minimum number of starting intiative to something higher i think tho.

PistolWhip.2697:

Sunflowers.1729:

Asomal.6453:

Thieves are the second worst pvp class in the game, just ahead of warriors. If you think they are somehow OP, low risk/high reward, I suggest you L2P. I know it sounds harsh, but someone had to say it, I’m tired of this nonsense since September 2012.

/thread?

@edit

About WvWvW balance, gtfo. It was never meant to be balanced in the first place.

I do agree that thieves suck in sPvP, but this isn’t because they are somehow underpowered, it’s just how thieves are designed.

Is it a wonder to anyone that a mobile class designed to engage and disengage at will, is bad at standing in small circles? Stealth doesn’t work in sPvP for capping. If you can’t beat someone in sPvP, you lose the point (in WvW, you just run away so nobody wins).

And as for your point about WvW balance, where do you think the 4s revealed debuff came from? Certainly not because thieves are amazing at sPvP. It’s a game mode that loads of people play, even more than sPvP. Why shouldn’t it be balanced?

Edit: When people say high reward low risk it usually refers to WvW. Believe it or not a lot of people like to play in there.

The irony is, people complaining about ‘perma-stealth’ in most cases meant chaining CnD with timing. That revealed increase does nothing to change that xD, go Anet!

(I think 3 seconds revealed was fine, heck, thieves are easy to begin with).

Thieves are meant to be the best at getting away yes, and regardless of what anyone says they are good at escapes. Sadly D/D is arguably better, when it shouldn’t be, but Anet is addressing that soon (or so they say <_<).

I wouldn’t mind if thieves got a buff tbh, its easy badges and the easiest class i face in wvw as a Guardian. Being a class built around anti-melee it makes sense, I’ve literally had it where thieves couldn’t land 1 back stab on me before in a 5 minute fight. Blocks and dodges galore, even really high dps warriors pose more of a threat. Actually they have a lot of pressure, deadly strikes, thieves not so much.

Anet, please buff thieves, coming from a guardian :P

For anyone wondering why I wan’t it harder to beat, is for youtube. I want to start making videos of WvW action, more so for entertainment then skill showing or boasting etc, with good well placed effects, but every fight I get into with a thief is a steam roll where they die with me popping hardly any cool downs, or where they play so defensive I don’t pop anything but we both get bored and leave <_<. That doesn’t make for good media.

ur a good player it sounds….anet has to account for bumble farkers. :P

well said killer angel. and pvpers do complain more. thats the only problem. pve .. is so easy you could take stealth out and thieves could…still kinda get by if they had invades rreplaced with by stealths.

u need about 6 CCs or more to kill my bleed build. if u care to bet on that.. :P ill be happy to show you.. i dont run the averagee bleed build. also i run 22k hp. single condition removal? lol that doesnt matter …what matters is which condition is removed. so you have to put on bleeds at right time. and work in poison cripple blind weakness ice so that those are removed instead of bleed. even if they purge all conditions…it only takes 1 second to add 6 stacks back on. yes it can be a bunker build if done right …. ive held 4-5 people for 90 seconds all the time and my team takes the other points with easy. very big sway in points when that happens.

i do like your idea baout the thief radiyus on blind field. somewher around blind powders effect.

u can swing any atack to get rid of blindness. so its really a joke and useless. aegis stays on til you actually hit. not just swing at it like a joke

a guardian can do it just as fast and never even use his (6) skill heal :P thats a fact.

Zeoli.3402:

I see what you are saying and yeh not adding more stealth skills is cool. But seeing as stealth is used as both offensive and defensive, surely buffing non stealth thieves survivability would additionally buff stealth thieves who have stealth. So either have something that is unique to those weap sets (non stealth) in terms of defense or make stealth more of a get away/positional tool and up the defense for all thieves

well thats fine i can did that… make the new utilites NON stealth like if you are going to move a couple to f2 f3. i am totally diggin that. right now theives arent really played anymore….very rarely. theres a reason for that they def need a slight boost to be able to get in on zerg action

i have 12 kills …a legendary and almost 2 more legendaries with full ascended armor and 5k achievement points… id like to say from my experience there are a few times when BP just doesnt give invis….sometiems its bc of revelaed or you are attacking to fast etc. but sometimes it just doesnt apply. no reason.

you guys are focusing on f2 and f3 being SPECIFIC SKILLS. try focus on just getting them. they dont have to be anything yet. do u think it would benefit / be fair for a couple extra Fs? f2 and f3? answer that to make it simple. rather than ignore my several plights with examples and facts. you are stating hypotheticals on “what ifs” etc on the plausability of the skills forementioned by the thread maker. expand on them . you said giving SS/blind etc on f2 f3 is too op. FINE are you saying we shouldnt get f2 f3? are you saying maybe a different skill instead? no you are trolling. you arent even a thief. idk why non thieves come here. its bc thief takes talent to play. like ele. and the ones that do are really really good. hate on bc obvious you will ignore every single one of my questions in this msg. proof enough its trolling for me.

so its only a good idea for every class but thief? that would be biased or prejudiced.

but like i said . moving them to f2 f3 would only allow you to pick a venom and maybe caltrops which is usually weak in all but the bleed build. even soo its evadeable ….. we would only become as strong as the strongest 2 traits outside the four i listed. how about his like i said before. lets make f2 a venom and f3 a trick. is that op? if u say no. theres no reason they cant be SS or stealth. its the same thing. if you think ither is OP…..then what you are saying is steal is equal to f1 f2 f3 f4 of a mesmer or a guard or an engineer? and i know nobody is stupid enough to claim that. so right there its proven that we could use a f2 f3 of a sort. which would not matter what is put in aslong as its a skill we already have.

u guys are talking pre and post. either way there is always risk.

confusion is def op. they will change it a lil eventually. atleast so that condi removal removes it before dmg. or it only works on non auto attack skills idk. but right now u get 8 stacks of confusion i guarantee u lose 100% of the time. its an easy button for win.

@zeo it doesnt boost stealth bc ur not adding in stealth skills. ur must moving them from utility to f1 f2 f3 etc. so you wont have SS in f2 and in utility 7 ….get it? the only way it improves is that it now allows a stealth build or any build to move a lil better. thats it. doesnt change how long or how many times u stealth for

well u could ignore what i said about other classes not being OP? f1 f2 f3 f4 are actually better than the skill utilities for an engineer. higher dmg etc. mesmer burst clones.. and the dozens of boosts you get from guardians f1 f2 f3 and SHared with allies….if u go back a few pages i showed you that guardians have atleast 4-5x more power in f1 utilities. and yes every thief uses atleast TWO of these at all times in pvp (shadowstep shadows refuge SoS blind powder). movign 2 of them to f2 f3 will change nothing. although it would give us acces to choose other skill utilities which if u are a gw2thief you would know that they are all pretty much bunk. if i had those 2 in my f slots…id pick prolly 1 venom and 1trap. so basically what i get is a trap and a venom to use. how about this . would it be op if i put the venom / trap in f1 f2 instead? would that make it feel better? bc it shouldnt its the same thing. :P

Brullyra.1592:

Currently using D/D with Sigils of Corruption and Agony.

When I reach 25 stacks, would it be better to switch out the Corruption dagger to another Agony dagger for increased bleed duration, or to Air or Fire for straight damage (crit chance is currently 22%)

just go with another 10% bleed OR get one that refils stamina or hydromancy. imo you shouldnt run crit items/gear with a bleed build. they dont mix well. hope this helped. if u need questions ask me ingame ive 12k+ kills on thief and one of the better duelests.

Kneru.8014:

I hate to say it, but yeah, that would make us OP. If we have Shadow Step/Refuge, then that frees up atleast 2 slots on our utility bar, which for me means I would be running constant Devourer Venom, Sin Signet, and perhaps Blinding Powder for quick BS setups. And that would definitely make us OP, IMO.

However, I could get behind having Smoke Bomb, useful, free stealth when you HS through it, and could help us defensively when waiting for the opponent to close the gap and firing shots at us.

I do however like the thought Pope put into his, but I have an issue with one slight thing.

PopeUrban.2578:

• F4: Dust Trap>Ignite (Mini-Smokescreen)
  Prepare a Dust Trap (line trap) at your location. When triggered with the “ignite” skill, this trap will block projectiles for three seconds and blind any foes that pass through it. Does not function as a combo field. Useful for pre-setting an escape route or on the fly as a personal/party defensive tool.

While good for the blind, it would be meh at best. Sure it can block projectiles, but by the time they activate it, it means they’re already within melee range.

i do have to disagree…..well i guess honestly it depends what they replace them on the utility skills with. if we get those 2 skills as f2 f3 we ahve to have 2 new skills to put in. if those are like traps…venoms….they will suck and we dont become stronger….just kinda more optional :P if they replace then with 2 more skills of the same caliber….well maybe yeah that would SLIGHTLY op but nto much. guards get every buff in the game exept fury and even get more than 1 free heal from f1 f2 f3. and multiple stacks of and shares them all with 5 allies and same with heals on 5 allies. all we get is a crappy steal item that is only 1/3rd of the time really good.

Daecollo.9578:

Aberrant.6749:

Daecollo.9578:

Aberrant.6749:

This would be far to strong…

How?

Because those are among the best utilities… they would need to be weakened severely if given for free.

That’s not to say that the thief’s class f-skills couldn’t use some tuning, but this change in particular would be op.

Our other utilities need buffing as well (almost all poisons and traps)… it should be a tough choice when you pick your utilities because they are all good.

They are some of our /only/ utilities, they are the only ones that really go into the slot.
Even if ALL of them were buffed to there level, there is no way we would ever give up Shadowstep or Signet of Shadows.

devaking.2397:

Travlane.5948:

a key stroke is a keystroke. it doesnt change if u hotkey it. i know what you mean. but other classes have a few more abilities than thieves. would be nice to have an f2 f3. not that we need them to be certain things. just nice to ahve a lil more option. we use everything in the first 5 seconds of battle. :/

yes but having a free shadowstep and a free refuge is alittle too good.

its not free tho. its just being moved. so we can use other utilites on our utility bar instead.

Zeoli.3402:

I’m guessing the gw1 blind didn’t get transferred directly because of the % chance of surviving a hit. However, the topic is essentially Thief Defense and therefore will write on this. Currently thieves essentially only feel survivable when they are able to stealth, this is because we cannot self heal a lot or mitigate damage. The thief is most comparable to a ele in terms survival tactics, but lacks the eles ability to self heal or increase armour. Should stealth be nerfed i’d rather see a stacking self debuff that makes me take more damage each time I exit stealth for whatever the reason. Now this allows us to play with increasing the thief’s innate ability to survive without buffing stealthing builds to god-like.

so you are saying thieves have good defense and need to take more dmg from going stealth more than once?

devaking.2397:

XII.9401:

Confusion and retaliation are two things that should have never been implemented.

A condition which kills you if you use any ability so you should sit there waiting patiently while getting DPSed or run away?

A condition which destroys you if you attack your target so you have to cower in a corner till it’s gone?

Wow..

The only people who defend this silly mechanic are people who play classes that use it or who have heavy condition removal. The remainder can go get farmed.

lol no confusion or retaliation isnt the issue…confusion is a good mechanic much like spiteful spirit was, you get punished for being a moron, same as retaliation, the whole problem with pvp right now is fury

bunkers can get high dmg mitigation and still deal dmg through fury, what do you think makes eles so op in pvp? not their constant application of fury.

well u cant compare spiteful spirit like that….u hav a low lvl skill and then compare it to a high lvl skill (an elite) so if that low lvl is AS good as the elite spiteful spirit…therefor its OP or should be put in elite status/spot. that is a very strong skill undeniably. confusion is OP and so is shattter but they wont debuff both in the same patch….just doing the -50% dmg on shatter for now. which u will see …and alot of attack players will like it bc it is an easy build for anyone to play…making clones/phants and run in a circle/dodge and blow them up/let them do dmg.

and what did u mean about eles? u dont think they are op? or you do?

XII.9401:

Confusion and retaliation are two things that should have never been implemented.

A condition which kills you if you use any ability so you should sit there waiting patiently while getting DPSed or run away?

A condition which destroys you if you attack your target so you have to cower in a corner till it’s gone?

Wow..

The only people who defend this silly mechanic are people who play classes that use it or who have heavy condition removal. The remainder can go get farmed.

the other true mechanic probl with it is lets say im at 2k hp and i use my 6k heal. i die firs then try use the heal….should be other way around. same with condi removal…. skill dmg first then removal and ur dead. theres no way to get around with wthout using -70% condi build

MightyMe.1356:

I think thieves are in a good place right now.
They no longer can spam their attacks and expect to win the battle, they have to keep thier wits.

My first character was a thief and I loved it.
Now I’m starting a Mesmer,and as a mesmer the 2nd easiest class for me to insta kill is the thief (first being the warrior,by very short).
Just yesterday I insta gibbed a p/p thief, I anticipated he would start the duel with unload, so I imediately followed up with’ Mirror’ (reflects projectiles for 2s and heals).
It was so satisfying to see the. Umbers fly over his head 1k, 2k,3k
I then followed up with a standard shatter burst and the fight was over before it even begun.
Another nice duel was with a very glasscanony thief,as soon as he applied Basilisk venom (I saw the buff icon underneath his health bar,very helpful!) I responded with ‘riptose’ (aegis+clone on block),that literally destroyed his combo, and I then proceeded with my shatter burst and took him down.

The only time a thief can be truly lethal is in a group fight, when you’re too busy fighting the other guys the thief suddenly pops out of thin air and finishes you off so quickly that you never have the chance to react.
You’re dead before you know it :P

thieves are getting very closed to being balanced right now. but they are also only good depending on the level of player playing them. you can see good players of any class regardless of the person playing them. thieves have to chain skills and almost all of them at same time just to try stay alive and also at the same time kill 1 person and you can forget about stomping them its more often not going to happen. unless ur talking small groups but u guess alot of you play on TIER 7 or 6 or 8 etc…..i dont we have 100 man zergs on every map everyday. so in the larger picture of spvp and wvw thiefs are going to get buffed…..revealed will be back at 3 secs and the devs said they are going to make the class defence better by making them more “slippery”. be ready. they are almost there.

Ekemeister.8905:

Redscope.6215:

Ekemeister.8905:

Also, thief is probably the farthest from God mode. Thief takes planning and good execution to simply be average and predictable. Playing my warrior after running as a thief is like taking off the weight vest after owning a 2 on 1 match in a sports drink commercial. If you want God mode, roll Guardian. I walked through packs of hyenas that killed my warrior without a single down on my guardian. Guardian buffs, traits, and aegis can mitigate huge amounts of damage, while the guardian still is a significant dps and hps source. Roll a thief, get to lv 40 without any sort of crafting or wvw leveling, and then come tell me how OP they are.

Rolling a guard in PvE and soaking damage while sucking on your thumb is not comparable to what it takes to PvP with one. Sorry, but your talking about the opposite side of the game here. Warriors are PvE gods because the mobs in this game don’t kite you, they hardly CC you, they have big “dodge now” telegraphed hits, they don’t go invisible every 3 (now 4) seconds, they don’t heal themsleves, and they sure as hell don’t cure their conditions.

So yeah, go roll the CnD/Steal/BS thief in PvE and let me know how terrible he is. How much he needs improvement because he doesn’t one-shot Kralkatorrik and therefore he’s worthless. I’ll still be fighting them in sPvP and WvW because its just such a terrible build.

Except hammer guard can make or break a team easily in tpvp. I laughed loud enough to peeve my roomie when playing conquest, casting VoJ RoW and laying the smackdown alongside a guildie using 100b. If you’re saying it’s near impossible to go god mode as a guardian with a node capturing partner, I’ll just leave you content with your error. error such as thieves being completely overpowered, for example.

Travlane.5948:

some typos sure but im on a tablet and i have rather large hands being 6’3" and all. im not trying to give you a hard time. im just saying….if a thief fights the risk is the highest….if he doesnt wanna fight its one fo the 2 lowest….. my point was the game isnt about running….bc if it were thieves would be tied with warriors and eles :P

Just talk about the game and leave personal info and invectives out of the forums please.

i mentioned i was large and have a hard time typing on my tblet……its ok to write that…100% ok. especially if somebody made a dig at my typos. ty for caring tho i suppose

actually no blinding powder doesnt fire a bullet. its only an upclose blind with a small (guessing) 400 area radius.

blinds …atleast for thieves…should be integral parts of their builds. not spend 5 initiative and an utility skill to blind the foe at range as they drop the condition(s) without a skill or trait (just by swinging).

anyway…yeah…the only good blinds are really up close melee blinds bc those are the ones that hurt chain skills and big hits if u happen to get lucky. range ones just take 1 swing awaw or one strike that may or may not be intended for you. without them staying on for a duration they are practically useless

a key stroke is a keystroke. it doesnt change if u hotkey it. i know what you mean. but other classes have a few more abilities than thieves. would be nice to have an f2 f3. not that we need them to be certain things. just nice to ahve a lil more option. we use everything in the first 5 seconds of battle. :/

SwickHobo.5096:

Travlane.5948:

wrong it was meant as in “individual” as I represented only myself and unarguably so bc i was the ONLY person typing my message and it was not therefore dictated to me. so you cant pick which definition suits your need.
so if im wrong who typed my message or dictated it to me to write? or who did i claim to represent if in the collective manner? sorry fail again bud

PS ….LOL @ you actually looking up the word “you” .

I as the writer dictate what the words i write mean. In that sentence it was meant as a generalization, which i clearly stated twice in further posts. If you chose to perceive what i write incorrectly that’s on you. If i say or write, “The man walked gaily down the street.” You can either perceive it as a homosexual slur and as a synonym for the word happily. No matter how you perceive the sentence, I as the original author of the sentence am the only one who can say what i meant when I wrote it.

P.S: I looked it up, not to find out the definition, but to provide the link for you. I gave the Hyperlink so you wouldn’t question the source or context of the definition.

Also i missed the only post where you actually responded to the topic, so i’ll at least respond to that.

Travlane.5948:

I’m sorry where did you get "At base initiative you get at minimum four casts of any two skill. They all cost three you have 12 initiative.

I was referring to the two skills. I.E Heartseaker, Infiltrators Strike, Body Shot, Cluster Bomb. They all cost three initiative. Sorry for not being clearer about that.

np on the confusion but if u meant it as a generalization you should say “people who write in caps are generally viewed as pre pubescent teens” or “Caps locking a lot of words shows qualities of a prepubescent teen according to blah blah” …… not to beat a dead horse…whatever you meant….is what you meant….however you state me :P perhaps you wrote it wrong and if thats the case….eh….whatever no big deal.

yeah. and i meant the words that were in CAPS loud bc i really wanted them to be more emphasized than just the sharp inflection intended by italicization .

as a single trait…yes i would have to agree with you about mug. but steal isnt great at all infact is quite trashy IMO. you cant say that other F skill on another character is good but only with a “qualifier”. you might say that the trait MUG is fantastic and you 100% are correct. but functionally steal is not a good trait. and i do believe f2 and atleast f3 maybe f4 should be added. perhaps not as strong as first stated by the thread maker but to some degree.

more spelling than grammar but yeah i guess i had a few keystroke slips :p

some typos sure but im on a tablet and i have rather large hands being 6’3" and all. im not trying to give you a hard time. im just saying….if a thief fights the risk is the highest….if he doesnt wanna fight its one fo the 2 lowest….. my point was the game isnt about running….bc if it were thieves would be tied with warriors and eles :P

devaking.2397:

Travlane.5948:

memorizing how to “bold” or italicize doesnt make you more intellectual ….perhaps more computer typing “savvy” . and yes you were. bc what does some a boys body have to do with using capital letters? i dont see a connection. then again i probably dont know much about a boys body. according to your correlative aptitude that would make you a pedofile possessing such prepubescent carnal knowledge? :P also not having a social media account is a common rebuttal when people talk trash online bc they are only hiding behind their anonymity and can only back with opinion and unjustifiable notions of others “physical immaturity” .

back to the real topic. you dont get 4 casts of anything OTHER than heartseeker. where do u get your info. u are obviously an ele or somethign on a thieves forum trolling. death blossom FIVE intiative. dancing dagger FOUR initiative. CnD SIX initiative. OH WAIT . … now i get it…u didnt know how much initiative we get max to start with. that answer is 12. so heartseeker being 3….12/3 =4 12/5 =2.4 12/4=3 and 12/6 =2 im sorry where did you get "At base initiative you get at minimum four casts of any two skill. They all cost three you have 12 initiative. If your going to bring numbers into this then try your best to not to lie. " and anyone who spams heartseeker is just wasting intiative :P and usually by 25% on opponent the thief is out of intiative or has 1 HS left. also HS is a very slow skill. super easy to dodge. i hope a guy is smart enough to save a defensive utility or dodge for crunch time. (crunch time being when hp is in the red zone)(red zone being when hp is at a critical stage)(critical stage being when hp is low enough you could die any moment) just to make it clear. point is that what the threadstarter offered as an idea was a good one. perhaps a lil OP perhaps not….depending on how the skills worked and what they were replaced with. and comparing just f1 on a thief to f1 2 3 4 on mesmer/guard….thief comes up SUPER short. cant deny that. i showed allt he skills above. all to be accurate. you read his starting thread as a this is the way it should be …rather than a baseline starting suggestion. perhaps be constructive since you are so OBVIOUSLY not a thief and havent played one extensively enough to know how to survive and when you cant. jc but what class are you so we all know what/who is trolling us.

you do know that what your saying about swickhobo calling you on caps lock has no correlation to pedophilia? your ineptitude at using the correct words for the correct situation is serverly lacking, please try to stop your flaming i like this topic and dont want to see it locked because you cant handle a little knowledge.

yes sir i do know that. and that is the point. it correlates perfectly bc typing in caps has no relation to being a pre – pubescent :P

wrong it was meant as in “individual” as I represented only myself and unarguably so bc i was the ONLY person typing my message and it was not therefore dictated to me. so you cant pick which definition suits your need.
so if im wrong who typed my message or dictated it to me to write? or who did i claim to represent if in the collective manner? sorry fail again bud

PS ….LOL @ you actually looking up the word “you” .

“How easy it is to get killed when not playing like an idiot.” Very easy. and not trying to argue here….but nobody is talking about saving a few silver or 10-25 seconds at a time. risk in my opinion is about how many times you die vs how many you can kill/save/quality of contribution. if in a zerg a thief is going to us SB trickshot and venom share. he cant use melee…..funny that most of their skills/traits are for melee . if so why cant they use them in zerg fighting. its bc they die instantly. ok lets say you fight 1 person and win. then somebody else comes as your depleted on everything bc thats what happens to thieves when they win or lose. you die. here is another….u down a guy after a good fight…..just about to stop and he stops u and another person comes…..if u have enough you can stealth but most of the time u have to wait. you see it on thief videos all the time. most of the time you die bc ur low on HP low on inti and waiting 60 secs for utilities to come back…gg you die. so risk is actually very high if fighting. if the goal is to run then the risk is low. that would make you correct. but fighting to win/hold a point/take a camp/tower/keep….the poitn is not to run away. you are better off fighting to the bitter end to help allies and push on hoping they can finish or revive you. hence the risk is actualy the highest for a thief. perhaps that is where the confusion lay. risk being on surviving or winning. in our opinions its winning. but whener or not you die to a 1 v 50 doesnt matter bc u werent guarding or attackign anything u were just wandering/roaming/getting to commander so it has no bearing on anything. risk is how likely you are to die i an 8 v 8 TPVP or in zerg v zerg play. and its very obviously that unless a thief says “screw this” and tries to bounce…then the thief risk is actually the highest. 8 v 8. 1 of each class on each team. i would love to see a sample population of 1000trials of live play (computer simulation is inacurate as human reaction time is not even close to computers) to see how the average death time of each class in its propsective roles. i bet thief is number 1 . guards being defensive/heals and thieves being low hp/defense/high attack and so on so forth et cetera et cetera et cetera