Guild Wars 2

Carpboy.7145:

Travlane.5948:

Carpboy.7145:

Fun fact: all classes dmg is getting nerfed because of the crit dmg change

fun fact: thief gets hit the hardest by this nerf.

seriously think about the larger picture

Right, because thieves are the only class that can crit

no…thieves are the only class that rely on dmg as much as they do. this isnt JUST a nerf to crit dmg. its -10% dmg OVERALL. so.

look at it this way.

guardian has like 9/10 prowess in healing and 9/10 prowess in defense and 6/10 prowess in attack

thief has like 6/10 prowess in healing 6/10 and prowess in defense and 9/10 prowess in attack.

so if both take a 10% hit in total dmg ( lets knock each down 1 peg) so thief is now 8/10 prowess in attack and guardian is 5/10. but both there defense/healing and other areas stay the same. this increases the gap from thief to guardian and other classes bc thiefs trade off for stupid high dmg was its lack of defense lack of HP lack of boons like invuln/block/protection/burning/aegis/stability andlack of toughness and lack of armor. wow thats alot of lack ofs. so basically invis and high dmg is ALL a thief has. the lack of all i mentioned is the price they pay. if it were a lil more well rounded…yes a thief would be only hurt as much as other classes. but bc ofthe sacrifice and the way anet set thief up….. you are not going to see DPS thieves in SPVP anymore or wvw. this is also a direct buff to conditions.

like i said. big picture. zoom out brah

Interceptor.2653:

We really need to see the numbers. It’s assumed that ANet is talking about max-damage nonsense dungeon builds, but we need to see what actually happens with Ferocity first. While the Celestial fallout will be considerable if left alone, maybe they will re-jigger the stat budget on that armor in order to compensate (after all, they are doing it for the PvP gear).

im not sure what anetMEANT…but what they SAID was its about 10% overall dmg reduction. not 10% less crit dmg. but 10% less dmg dealt period. i mean going from 250% to 240% isno big deal in crit dmg. or even 250% to225% which is a TOTAL of 10% crit dmg reduction. either way i only see them doing 10% of all dmg like they said. you know anet :/

Carpboy.7145:

Fun fact: all classes dmg is getting nerfed because of the crit dmg change

fun fact: thief gets hit the hardest by this nerf.

seriously think about the larger picture

Interceptor.2653:

Warriors are too good, but not because of anything you proved in an experiment with some average-ish D/P backstabber. A competent P/D condition Thief would have beaten you up and taken your lunch money. That fight either ends with the Warrior 1) dying, or 2) running away.

They are scaling back Healing Signet some. That will help.

not to play “point-counterpoint” with you but the build literally had half a dozen ways of dropping conditions. some thru utility. somethru adrenaline. some thru 2 traits. and all thru lyssa runes. p/d wouldntohave done much. need 7 stacks of bleed justto get inthe positive.

Black Teagan.9215:

Thief: 60% Nerfs, 35% Bugfixes, 5% Buffs.

Btw: I cant remind me that, multiple Choking Gas fields work together. Only one after another.

yeah but 3 fields. 100% of full init. for a large stack of poison? not OP at all.

@ TEAGAN. good point about %s. quite accurate.

a split is actually not a badidea. i personally use all carrion bc i am not worried about the long term due to condi removal and stealth. im more worried about getting stuck in AOE fields stackedand burst players. if u can withstand a burst you will be able to heal back up pretty fast (considering most builds run heal in stealth trait). to each their own tho. takes practice and experience. not all players get hit as much as others. not all like to zerg it. all depends on what you like. enjoy!

Ok i claimed warriors are OP and anybody can play one decently without having every played the class before. they can make a bad player look decent or better. basically the class is the beginners class (not in the sense they arent high end playable…just in the sense its a safe class bc u have MUCH room for mistakes and still succeed).

Another in game player (thief/warrior were his to pro classes…mainly warrior) claimed the opposite. warriors arefine. not OP at all.

I said lets test it. i have never ever….seriously…ever even created a warrior. i just hate the whole “hulk smash” type of characters, they just dont appeal to me. point is i suck at warrior and could never be good if i duel without some time on the class. so i challenged himto a 1v1 , his thief (d/p general blind backstab build) vs a warrior i would make up on the spot. he accepts.

i make 0 0 30 10 30 warrior with full zerk gear and lyssa runes (crit) while using GS/LB with energy sigils. Basically my build had 23k hp. 3100 attack. 1500 toughness. very very high condi removal. very nice hp regen (410 per sec plus every 3 secs few hundred more from adrenaline), and great dmg with regular burns. a very strong well rounded build. i used ENDURE PAIN and HEALING SIGNET and DOLYAK SIGNET OF STAMINA. im sure most of you are familiar w/ it.

match one i win 40% hp left

match 2 i win 85% hp left

match 3 i win 100% hp left

each match took 45-1min 15 seconds. obvouisly i missed alot and fumbled and bumbled so im sure most could do it faster. hes not the best thief in the world but id give him a 7.5 out of 10 on the perfection scale. just to be fair and keep this in perspective. id guess i was like a 1.5 or 2 out of 10. i was clicking all the skills with mouse and reading them as fighting. popping all my signets when i shouldnt have been (figured that out after first battle which is why my left over HP went up so high).

i wanted to go against other classes he has never played so it would have been a real experiment. nub vs nub so its more focused on class ability rather than personal skill. he wanted to play warrior vs warrior which i declined bc u cant test OP’ness on same class battle. OP vs OP = even. OP vs UP(underpowered) = obvious winner.

anyway what do you guys think of this. i can try it again and get video or even with a diff opponent to prove the point. but i think warrior is OP …by alot. they lead or almost lead most categories in game, dmg, hp, toughness. armor, condi removal etc. very high ranked in everything and i dont see many weaknesses other than mobility which is why i added the sigils of energy and using 5 sec swap.

how OP do you think warrior is or is not, with consideration of this and your own experiences. i know alot of you can BEAT warriors. i can too on my thief. they are not impossible. but def OP. dont think always 1v1 either. think in battle. think about running thru AOE. think about gap closing or sprinting (warrior currently is number 1 and thief close 2nd atleast up to 3k distance) etc etc.

phaeris.7604:

If the guy went stealth at any point it was p/d, in which case a pretty cheesy build.

If he was visible the whole time it was p/p, and honestly you shouldn’t die to that, it’s like fighting a ranger without the pet.

p/d isnt really cheesy. people use that word wrong lot tho :P

and ps… WOW aoe really owns thieves. i really hate that :/

copyright infringment it says on music :P make sure you put rights belong to and you claim nothing in your “info” section. hope that helps. it will let u use videos or music etc. fair use act.

A) your whole idea was based off a false premise (unfairness of “spamming”)

B)we understand it. just not good.

another thief nerf. period.

thief is the only class that relies on crit dmg as hard as they do. so take away what they rely on…even 10% total dmg. and it makes guards/warriors/eles/engineers defense that much stronger.

Amonatory.2453:

Travlane.5948:

Amonatory.2453:

Travlane.5948:

i owuldnt play s/d anymore. with the changes to IR…it doesnt have enough dmg avoidance/mitigation. risky buidl.

I still use s/d after the nerf, here’s my video to prove its still viable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwdg6InQnTg

s/d is still very playable against thieves yes i agree but its not thieves im worried about. in first fight i saw 2 zerk thieves and you were blinding them which is cool but not why s/d is risky. warriors/necros/guardians/engineers etc those are real problems and also the highest played classes in wvw/pvp. fight number 2 was against all upscales and i turned it off after that.

s/d is arguably BARELY viable but its too risky too play. any class with KDs or CCs or AOes and fear….they are going to own you no matter how good you are (if the are decent to good or better). s/d has to be played with high dmg and low defense relying on blinds to really stay alive. it HAS to be played with SS and sig of agility to drop those CCs . its a very pigeonholed build that leaves the thief very vulnerable especially in 5v5 or higher battles.

you will almost never see a thief video playing against decent zerg v zerg or 8v8s that have necros warriros engineers and the lot mixed in playing well and not using upscales on either side. they will fold up like a lawn chair or be invisible alot of it on the sidelines until everyone is being wore down which leaves your team at a sizeable disadvantage 8v7 etc. all the s/d videos left are 1 v 1 and against zerks/rangers/upscales and small small battles. if u do for some reason see a larger group in a video….its bc they are farther off and not in danger of hurting the thief or the thief is on edge of battle trying to pick off a loner that is bad or doesnt have the right build and had to exit combat.

all in all…. s/d is amazingly fun. it was my favorite build as it left the thief to his own devices and qualities/faults but now since we cant respond to CC/KDS etc we are sitting ducks with such low HP when good warriors/necros/engineers etc come into the fight.

Once again you’re wrong, I duel almost everyday, and ive dueled some of the best Engis, Necros and warriors. Even If they CC im able to handle it, I rarely lose to a necro or an engi. Just because we cant return doesn’t mean anything…. S/D is still viable and I know for a fact it is behind a good player who knows how to play that spec. If you cant face anything with CC that is your fault completely, not s/d.

wow im so dumb sorry i didnt even notice this…but umm…. where is the duel part of the game?> ive only been here since release ….of both games for that matter. cant believe i missed this. where or howdo you get to the dueling portion of the game. so far i can only find the spvp/tpvp/wvw/pve sections. can you please post screenshots of how to get there? thanks

Post script – lawl.

Sweetbread.2679:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Perhaps one player needs to make a guide on how to kill a stealthed player. Both from enemy and ally perspective. This will help players understand that it not so shallow and easy for the thief.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but counterless invisibility beyond blindly aoe spamming is never going to be considered “not so shallow and easy for the thief”. You rolled the class that’s core mechanics are spam, being invisible, ludicrous burst damage, and running away. People are right to consider your class shallow and catered to cowards and morons who can’t compete otherwise.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but counterless invisibility beyond blindly aoe spamming is never going to be considered “not so shallow and easy for the thief”. You rolled the class that’s core mechanics are spam, being invisible, ludicrous burst damage, and running away. People are right to consider your class shallow and catered to cowards and morons who can’t compete otherwise.[/quote]

ok few things here kiddo.

1) the ability to spam (if spam means 3 times or sometiems 4) is a disadvantage bc a warrior using skills 2 3 4 5 on WeaponsetA then going 2 3 4 5 on weaponset b is 8 attacks then switching back to repeat. thief can go 2 3 4 3 (yeah cant even get to 5 lol) then hes out of initiative and waiting 4 secs or 5 secs for another attack . so 4 attacks on thief vs 8 on warrior….. who really spams? cant argue that. OHHHHH thats right you mean Spam the same skill. i get it bc spaming a skill 4x is greater than another class using 8+ attacks right? lol fail. no contest…cant argue. however i will say its a luxury at a cost. you lose more 2-5 attacks per minute but you get the choice of which to use when and how many within init restraints. so it gives us the circustantial choice which is good. but dont act like spamming…as you choose to define it within 1 skill vs spamming many and more.

2) can anyone deal dmg while invis? thiefs no. mesmers yes. so the only thing a thief can do is get away or position himself better. and while stealthed the thieves still take alot of dmg. unless ur against a nub doing nothing. so its actually a dmg advantage for you. but if u give me the choice of dropping stealth and trading it to warriors for high hp, invulnerabilty, blocks, aegis, protection, high toughness, high armor, and insane healing….. id take it. just ask anet see what

3) since mug was nerfed there is not burst dmg. just a few spike hits like backstab or HS when hp is under 25%. burst on thief is dead there are no combos. CND BS? ok 2 hits…. go ahead and say 10k dmg and youll seem silly bc nobody runs those builds . its insta death if any more than 1 player come around.

MrFluffy.9307:

this will only be useful IF

- it is ground targeted
- ~45 second CD or less
- works in a fashion similar to line of warding

evenif what u say is true… its trash.

has to be huge aoe and 35s cooldown to be even semi attractive. i mean cmon :P a KD. seriously …. i FRIGGEN KNOCKDOWN. most KDs come as a “extra benefit” to attack skills…. and on short cooldowns at that. wtf is this seriously? this is why thieves dont spend money anymore and lot of otherp layers.

i feel like gw2 graphics and gameplay quality are the only things they do semi well here. i wish the entire skill list of gw1 was in gw1. gw2 is for 4th graders. seriously. its soooo nubbed down and dumbed down. proof of this is 20:1 ratio of nerfs to buffs.

they would rather make the game easier for bad players so they spend money rather than make skills and classes BETTER to deal with the power of other classes.

for instance>

class A is really strong
class B is only half as strong

anet cuts class A roughly 50% rather than buffing class B 100% to make them even.

yeah we really want a dumbed down game .. :P as you see anet is nervous to give thieves anything decent bc thief players are pretty good bc we have the choice to respond in battle and not be left with whats left over on the skillbar. thieves play by choice of whats best to use…not by using whats not oncooldown.

Terravos.4059:

VladR.9827:

Dee Jay.2460:

Conditions melting targets faster than any D/D Berserker build ever could.

Just shows you how broken Conditions are.

it is the leeching venoms trait – life siphon dmg – not the conditions themselves

Been playing this build for a long time (even before the link below) (wvw only): solo, small group and guild raid
It realy shines when within small roaming party and decent group up to 20/25 ppl

It is realy nice fun to trigger venoms on solo target thou ;d

I use perplexity runes to apply another condition (confusion) on target. Can apply up to 6-7 conditions within 1-2s

and the one who should get more tribute is the one who tried to show community this build is fun to play:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-Panicond-build-P-D/first#post3266925

and btw:
dire condition engi has smaller impact dmg due to no siphon dmg, but a lot more sustain condition dmg on target

Not sure if it was him or not I got this build from, I just remember reading a post one day talking about how Venomshare goes to your Thieves Guild and I was like “well that sounds oped as hell” so I tried it out and find it absolutely hilarious.

But yea, I didn’t create this build or come up with it…And it could of been his post I read..

That’s generally how I play my thief..I play it with builds that are more hilarious then insanely good at winning every fight.

The Glass Cannon spec I run…I die most of the time, but when I one shot someone I get so much entertainment..

This build I win more 1v1’s but I still lose at least 4/10 times..

i wouldnt call it OP…bc if i was on my thief and i saw venoms go up… …dodge …dodge…dodge…. you are outo f venoms and defenseless and ill auto attack you to death with clerics armor :P. thats why its not op. its very strong against bad players and unsuspecting players. even if u do make it work on a player…its only1 player then u are totally out of the fight.

not cracking on you…just pointing out for the general public about to QQ that its not OP and 100% gimmick and rather useless outside of a quick gank-laugh build.

RedSpectrum.1975:

panicbutton.1053:

No no trust me I read every single line. You don’t agree with it, but you’ll post it anyways as a suggestion because you’re a veteran thief, so that makes it completely OK.

If it was a suggestion, why wouldn’t I post it in the class balance sub-forum? I posted it as a topic of discussion. I even ended it with “What do you guys think?” allowing for broad opinions, not set in stone, this is what I think and how it should happen since I don’t agree with it yet it seemed interesting and I wanted to know what others thought of it. But apparently others seem more interesting in attacking rather than discussing. And my comment of being a veteran thief is something you’re taking out of context. I said that because I have been a thief for awhile and would think at least others who have been here awhile, such as Travlane, would recognize my account and what I generally stand for. Never once have I attacked the thief class or any class, except warriors.

and @ Travlane, never once did I say thieves were unfair, hence my words, “as I understood the reasoning behind it”.

yes but it is anattack. as weknow thieves get the silliest and most uncalled for nerfs due to such “suggestions” and QQers and also the most annoying of all the “sarcastic posts” which seem to be so popular rightnow. all are donig real harm to the thief class. we are nothing but a gimmick now and barely top 2 in 1v1 classes. half of the thief community already rerolled if not much more. if you were to make a 20 v 20 team….not 1 thief would be brought on either side. we are not in a good place right now and if u want to talk unfair look at F-mechanics. we by far have the worst f-mechanics in game. THAT is unfair. engineersalone have f-mechanics that outproduce ours by atleast 800%

panicbutton.1053:

No no trust me I read every single line. You don’t agree with it, but you’ll post it anyways as a suggestion because you’re a veteran thief, so that makes it completely OK.

ditto…. 15 minimum lines

RedSpectrum.1975:

It’s a sad day when thief players don’t even recognize “veteran thief” players on the forums. Go through my history and find an instance of me attacking my own class. And this wasn’t my suggestion, it was one I heard that inherently sounded interesting. You should learn to read carefully: “I am not going to post this in the profession balance because I know everyone who is not a thief will for sure be on this bandwagon so I’m going to post it here to see what you guys think of this suggestion I heard of. I personally don’t agree with it since I think it can be downright punishing and before you ask, read the title, stealth is in no way being attacked here.” there is my introduction in case you skimmed past it.

soon as i saw “unfair” i laughed. ive seen your name in here. i never said u were an amateur thief. just really bad at math/comparisons.

not unfair. you cant add :P simply put.

if a guardian or w.e. class were to use skills 2 3 4 5 on weaponset 1 then switch to weaponset 2 and then use skills 2 3 4 5 again…thats 8 skills spammed in a row and each that gets used is INSTANTLY on CD which means they are not connected.

thief skills ARE connected. so there is no CD but skill 2 3 4 and 5 directly affect each other. a thief can use skills 2 3 4 and 3 then be out of init. cant even finish with skill 5. yeah. already behind guardian. so then a thief switches to weaponset number 2 and uses…. 0 skills bc hes out of init.

so a thief uses 4 skills then is out of attacks (other than auto attack) and guardian can use 8. even with cooldowns the number of non auto attack skills used within wepaonsets is going to be greater on any other class rather than a thief using his initiative.

so why isnt a thief worse off? well bc he can choose which skill to use on each scenario rather than be pidgeonholed. this is implemented bc a thief is usually a 2-3sec skill without having choice response. so in effect… thief gets less attacks per minute than a guard/warrior/mesmer etc etc.

so before you attack thief class perhaps ….learn the math? or learn the profession? or do cross class comparisons correctly.

goodbye.

lock and close thread request

tired of these sarcastic threads. u know anet cant tell the difference and you are only hurting yourself. do you guys even think?

we get screwed again. what else is there to say? i could see if its on 20sec timer AND a AOE round trap. but as usually anet slaps us in the face like we are dumb.

Gerskin.8402:

what the hell was that , insta pop 3 utilities and spam 1 that was all it took?

look up venom share. its gimmicky but works agianst 1 person.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Dee Jay.2460:

Conditions melting targets faster than any D/D Berserker build ever could.

Just shows you how broken Conditions are.

Nah, let’s make immobilize stackable and nerf crit dmg.

Amusing vid though, although I’m not a fan of repetitive 1v1 highlights. lol’d at the predator vs. engineer moment at one point.

lol yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyup. thieves are really not good condi players. yes they cando this GIMMICKY burst they they are dead if other players are around and 100% defenseless. ummm….if thieves had decent access to fire on pistol and sword…. i think it would be doable . but right now thief condi is gimmicky. i love my p/d bleed build but still. run into a good engi and its almost gg everytime ifhe has traited for bleeds.

Bran.7425:

Not trying to be disruptive here, but stealth in and of itself is not a thief mechanic, steal is the class mechanic, initiative is a mechanic, sneak attack (which don’t care how you became stealthed) are a class mechanic. Just had to get that out, carry on.

good point. but only steal and initiative are. weapon skills are different for every class so hard to say its a mechanic :P. i see what you mean but many classes have 2 part skills.

our only good mechanic is initiative which is still less 2-5 attacks than any other class. our steal is worst F-mechanic in game as you will read above this post.

Syncesta.7592:

“Stolen items are useless in group play.”

Healing Seed (stolen skill)
use blast finishers and your group will be full hp in no time

Skull Fear
Fear is always good

Throw Gunk
Surprise Shot>Throw Gunk>Clusterbomb geegee

Whirling Axe (stolen skill)
black powder>Whirling axe geegee

throw gunk is only arguable thing bc its aoe. even tho only 3 secs. 35 sec cooldown for 3sec aoe SMALL dmg still kinda sux for the entire F mechanic on thief.

compare to engineer now

3 turrets 1 turret heal

you get this in your f mechanics

1x AOE dmg x3 + 4.5secs burning x 3 + 1s burning x 3
1x AOE dmg + Breaks stun + Stability + Blast Finisher
1x AOE dmg + 1500 Range
1x AOE allies regeneration + water field

and when you place turrets you get 4 more skills

1x AOE dmg + Blast finisher (detonate turret , usually as its low on HP)
1x AOE dmg + Blast finisher (detonate turret , usually as its low on HP)
1x AOE dmg + Blast finisher (detonate turret , usually as its low on HP)
1x AOE dmg + Blast finisher (detonate turret , usually as its low on HP)

then compare ALL this to steal every 35 secs when most of engi is 30s or 25s EACH

900 gap closer
1 item stolen ( most crap )

yes both can be buffed but then they counterbalance. have to look at base. either way thief has the crappiest f mechanics in game.

Tetsuyja.7805:

a trap used for …..defense? launch foes away…. sounds bad.. BUT if u imagine how u can use it:

1. laying trap , step forward/around your current enemy launching incoming foes behind your start position away – with a CD of max 45 sec – nice.

2. cliffside – ok^^

i also want to mention that the trap will be blockable – ok one foe will evade and trigger but other foes will be launched away, in my opinion..

@warrior: who can remember which nekro elite skill from gw1 warrior will get?^^ in addition with a second (normal) skill from gw1

wont work next to a cliff bc u would have to be between cliff and trap andits usually the other way around.

to evryone: this is another joke of a useless trap. will be a small rectangle and affect 1 person.

null field makes this look like a joke and thats

mango is such a pro. thanks for helping us out. we love you. you are obvoiusly not a thief btw…u just got owned by one im sure using this AS INTENDED ability. l8ers. lock and close thread :P

Amonatory.2453:

Travlane.5948:

i owuldnt play s/d anymore. with the changes to IR…it doesnt have enough dmg avoidance/mitigation. risky buidl.

I still use s/d after the nerf, here’s my video to prove its still viable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwdg6InQnTg

s/d is still very playable against thieves yes i agree but its not thieves im worried about. in first fight i saw 2 zerk thieves and you were blinding them which is cool but not why s/d is risky. warriors/necros/guardians/engineers etc those are real problems and also the highest played classes in wvw/pvp. fight number 2 was against all upscales and i turned it off after that.

s/d is arguably BARELY viable but its too risky too play. any class with KDs or CCs or AOes and fear….they are going to own you no matter how good you are (if the are decent to good or better). s/d has to be played with high dmg and low defense relying on blinds to really stay alive. it HAS to be played with SS and sig of agility to drop those CCs . its a very pigeonholed build that leaves the thief very vulnerable especially in 5v5 or higher battles.

you will almost never see a thief video playing against decent zerg v zerg or 8v8s that have necros warriros engineers and the lot mixed in playing well and not using upscales on either side. they will fold up like a lawn chair or be invisible alot of it on the sidelines until everyone is being wore down which leaves your team at a sizeable disadvantage 8v7 etc. all the s/d videos left are 1 v 1 and against zerks/rangers/upscales and small small battles. if u do for some reason see a larger group in a video….its bc they are farther off and not in danger of hurting the thief or the thief is on edge of battle trying to pick off a loner that is bad or doesnt have the right build and had to exit combat.

all in all…. s/d is amazingly fun. it was my favorite build as it left the thief to his own devices and qualities/faults but now since we cant respond to CC/KDS etc we are sitting ducks with such low HP when good warriors/necros/engineers etc come into the fight.

i owuldnt play s/d anymore. with the changes to IR…it doesnt have enough dmg avoidance/mitigation. risky buidl.

id say we are in top 3 1 v1 classes.

i put up these classes in no order top 3

engineer
thief
mesmer

and guardian/warrio tie for a very close 4th.

thief is nto in a good position. bc every class has a build that can (almost every class) annihilate thief although its not good for their team play. we dont really ahve that unless we get lucky with GC signet build. we used to but even 6 months ago thieves were still dying to other skilled players on other classes. now mix the buffs EVERY other class gets with constant nerfs we thieves get….and the scales of equilibrium tip in favor of any other class (excluding ranger which is why you see our thieve videos MOSTLY killing rangers).

you take 2 people with the same skill …put 1 on engi or necro or w.e. and fight against the same skilled type player on thief… the thief SHOULD lose. id say about 65-35 against the thief odds.

hmmmmm….. not sure what to say about this. i do feel some have been able to see thru stealth….i mean even when i turn 4 times and they are litearlly on my heels as if they had /follow modeon from gw1

well thieves are decent in 1v1. however. they ahve to play perfectly to be so. warriors can afford a bunch ofm istakes. thief can maybe afford 1-2. that alone says the problem. this is regardless of build too.

i think thieves should still have a chance to stay alive and fight if hit with 2 AOEs. you get 1 aoe attack from a decent engie and it takes 20-25% of your HP plus gives you poison stacks bleed stacks burning stack and ice/cripple depending. PLUS thats an AOE attack. . . imagine if thieves could do that. the people would be screaming OP. memsers basically hide while their clones/phants etc do the work (75% of the work) warriors and guardians are hard to kill even if its somebody who has onlyplayed one for a couple weeks. necros have HP and aoe/condi for days….. rangers and thieves are the ones that come up short really. all the other classes have some sort of really good quality or qualities

Maugetarr.6823:

Hey! You wrote Thieves instead of Thiefs!

Seriously though, I know you were trying to keep traits at 14 points each, but you can’t put points into toughness and vitality lines! That cuts into the DEEPS!

thiefs…..sarcasm right?

Quakeman.9378:

I agree. I feel certain parts of thief are simply sub-par to that of other classes. However, prepare for the incoming flame.

what flame ? you mean from haters on my post?

i got a little off topic. anyway i dont mind other classes being better than thief or as good as or whatever. my MAIN point is that even in 1v1 (where a thief should excell) i find it more and more exerting to beat even average players in other classes. ive won tournments and and def no slacker. but in the sense that we should be able to str8 up own AVERAGE or less players in other classes bc we str8 up suck at team style builds and stayign alive in zergs. there is so much aoe we have like no chance.

for instance. i had 19.5k hp in a condi build i was running that i tried to cast 1 heal near about 8 vets (only like 3 near me and i had about 15 people with me) …. what happened? i tried 8+ times to cast that heal all were intertuped and i was owned without using 1 skill. i was perma immobed too bc of glue and other stuff. it was in EoTM near the NPC vets that stand in a circle …. anyway poitn is we arent made for large battles. and in 1v1s we are so so which means we dont really have a place anymroe it feels like. when i play my guardian (like 1-2% of the time) i find everythign to be so easy and cupcake level. i never play guardian and i do better in zergs with him. i dont mean surviving i mean dmg too.

yes you can still play thief at a 1v1 competitive lvl or Daggerstorm and get out if ur lucky enough. but generally (especially in this new wvw EoTM map) it seems very hard to get in…get it done and still not die. i find thief (and yes im extremely seasoned and a great dueler) falling more and more behind other classes.

engineer can str8 up own condi builds bc of no bleeds under 25% trait. god knows we dont have any other condis that will do enough dmg to kill them. this trait should be for a small period of time (10s or so) OR….. thieves shoudl get burning. we cant rely only on one condi to get the job done. cmon.

warrior can win at will bc they just go attack and if low on HP just use GS to have the most mobility and best sprinting skills in game… even more so than thief (excluding shadowstep which is 1 timer per 50 secs) . the worst part is they are short cooldowns . these should be treated like RTL. or atleast if u dont have “blocked” “missed” “stunned” “dazed” or “hit” after they use them they should go on a long cooldown. atleast 2.5 x longer.

or hp needs a boost. it really does. since day 1 our dmg has ATLEAST been cut 50% ooverall and we lost our entire burst. now we just have a big hit (backstab or CND + backstab) ther is no more burst…. that is to say combos where we go 3+ moves hitting big. we have to go signet build to really stand a chance at that.

im not sitting here QQing but when i see more nerfs like SB poison getting cut 60%…. i see that as nearly useless. 60%!?!?!?!? well if u look at it in normal terms…. most players get hit by it 1-2 times as they dodge out. 3 if ur lucky. so at 3 secs per poison ur at 3-6 seconds and really left with 2-4 secs as they are dodging out of it. 4 init for MAYBE 4 secs of poison. yes its aoe but still thats not long enough to deter a player from using a heal. they just do 1 dodge…then back up and use it. thats about 4 secs.

its not just 1 thing i just see thief getting chipped away so much that im at the edge of quitting. and this isnt a rage quit post. i have 4 legendaries on my thief and full ascended and good AP….. its just a perspective from a seasoned thief i can only hope anet will look at. dont have to take the 3 things i mentioned above as THE problem its just small fractions of the problem. also…you guys should give some serious love to rangers too. they need it. you should make their aoe traps as formidable as gw1. that would be a nice start.

what would i ask for if i could get anything right now? i would ask for thieves to be put in the middle HP pool….i think that would help us enough to be able to play team fights and larger zergs….. since i supposed asking for our dmg back to be in 1st place is asking too much.

long reach. soooooooooo good. i almost always use it.

Dee Jay.2460:

Thief is in a decent state and not THAT much has hanged.

The QQers like to exaggerate the nerfs when in reality, their impact is very limited.

WvW actually sees a wide spread of D/D, D/P and P/D builds, with the occasional wild-card in there. sPvP has both S/D evade-spam and D/P daze-burst going for it and we are still appreciated for our burst and mobility.

The only thing we’re really excluded from is zerg-fights but that’s probably never going to change.

short bow nerfs:

1) range on cluster bomb down to 900 now almost useless in wvw.
2) no heatseeking on AA which means u gotta be close to make sure it hits
3) skill 4 poison is being nerfed from 5s to 3s of poison :/

Sword nerfs:

1) Infil return now is no longer able to be used on stuns and a .25s or longer cast
2) FS/LS is more initiative
3) LS now only strips 1 boon and no longer can kill guardians decently
4) Infil return now no longer has long range return distance

Dagger/Pistol positives:

1) we get torment on p/d skill 3
2) death blossom is down 1 init and still almost useless
3) pistol skill 2 has immob 1 sec

other positives:

1) sleight of hand gets 20% cooldown reduction for a total CD of 21s (original 35s)

other nerfs:

1) we now have every vigor trait cut 33% duration
2) every underwater attack is nerfed including withdraw/RFI distance

icould go on….theres about 3x more thanthis but i wouldnt call it a tiny amount….

basically the only decent boosts we got were steal cooldown from 45 to 35 and also torment/immob added to pistol skills. other than that they are all pretty tiny and not noticeable. few other buffs we got but all reverted.

dancing dagger was good as it was. never needed a nerf. it WAS one skill we could use in our worst situation. large groups. now with minion masters and spirit spammers …. we are stuck with short bow pew pew pew. dancing dagger WAS strong but i dont think they needed to scale it back at all. if anything like7-8%

Reikou.7068:

Arganthium.5638:

I think it’s pretty easy to say that Feline Grace, objectively, is a pretty powerful minor trait overall. It reduces the cost of dodging to 70% of its original amount automatically, and that 30% allows us to dodge, in general, 3 times in a row while in combat.

My suggestion is that ANet nerf this trait to 2/3 or ~1/2 of its current value and revert Infiltrator Return’s cast time. As it currently stands, Feline Grace is the trait that allows the line between good S/D (or, perhaps more generally, Acro) thieves and bad S/D thieves to become much murkier, as it allows for a huge number of dodges. On the other hand, after the most recent nerf, Sword’s mobility has been at least halved by the absolutely ridiculous difficulty of using IR effectively, and we’ve become largely more vulnerable to conditions.

Thoughts?

I don’t think its necessary. Sizer and Vrael continue to prove that IR is still very usable.

2 decent players. wouldnt call them aamazing.

and also when u using infil return its to remove a condition. its never to create gap. well 95% of the time now. it USED TO be to create gap as u were stunned/KD/dazed etc but not its just a waste of initiative unless ur looking to drop a condi. it channelslongerthan .25s too thats for sure and gives oppoenent a freehit on your way out.

so is removing condi per stealth for 10 trait points.

however that said….. most builds run 1 or both of these bc thief has really no defense without them. removing conditions and avoiding dmg. thats all a thief can do. its paramount to survival.

leave them as is.

NinjaEd.3946:

Think you mean shadow’s embrace for stealth condi clear?

Anyways I wouldn’t say BV is the worst elite, it’s just not as attractive from a broad view because it’s supposed to be “elite” not weaker than a 10 second cooldown off a warrior skill (skull crack). As far as dueling purposes and runes go (more than just lyssa have proc’s off elite use) its pretty good. Often with whirling axe, stolen skill from warrior, I find myself being kited while I use it. Obviously people know that skill hurts especially from a power thief, so I’ll use BV, jump in, and although it’s not long 1.5 seconds of them soaking up whirling axe is great. As an “elite” skill I’d say its pretty far down the list in strengths, atleast for pvp/wvw. Still it’s got it’s place in a lot of thief builds.

yes sorry. been a long week so tired.

100% . . . basilisk venom is the worst STUN in the entire game. and it takes an elite spot. AND it shows up on your buff bar. AND makes u vulnerable while casting it.

its usefull but devourer venom is much more powerful. the only time BV is used…iswhen DS isnot a good choice and you plan on being in combat morethan 30 secs (soTG isnt a good choice for longer combats). BV is basically the “well im stuckwith this elite bc DS/TG arent optimal here”.

also. it limits your usage ofthe elite when u equip lyssa runes. you can either look at lyssa runes as a bonus when using BV….but if u use it like “i have lots of condis so ill use myelite” then it limits your strategic uses. you can use it as “remove condis” when ur full of conditions or use it when u wanna finish/burst somebody. rarely do both happen at same time.

they need to buff BV so its an actual elite. right now its worse than devourer without debate.

what they should do , in my humble opinion, is…

cast time: instant
stun time : 2 seconds
conditions: cripple 5 seconds
cooldown: 40 seconds

makes it a lil stronger but not OP. this way its 5 secs less CD than devourer and gives a slight bonus with cripple. its actually arguablly on par with devouerer when set up likethat. perhaps a tad…and i mean TAD stronger since its separate conditions rather than multiple of the same so u might get lucky and have 1 not removed.

infusion of shadow + hp is the best way to go. even better than shadowstep AND lyssa put together.

lyssa is a joke. well its a 1 time save per fight when u get loaded up with necro marks or engi condi bursts. but then its reapplied. so basically once every 45 secs u drop a few to several conditions with lyssa and BV…which pidgeonholes u already bc BV is the worst stun in game and not neccessarily the elite u always want to run….quite raer actually unless u are in spvp and trying to find small 2v2 or 1v1 fights. shadowstep is great but again once per minute.

with infusion. depending on which build u play there are many ways most thieves dont use.

infusion of shadow + stealth on steal+Sleight of hand+mug+bountiful theft + long range

then put 30 in CS you get a 10 0 30 0 30 build and basically gives u gr8 dmg plus tones of condi removal! works with d/d – d/p – s/d – p/d

basically every 21 secs from steal alone u get:

1500 range gap closer
free backstab
stealth
2 stolen boons
vigor
stun
2800 heal
1500 dmg
2 removed conditions
21 sec cooldown

utilities :

blinding powder
shadowstep
shadow refuge/devourer venom/infil or w.e. you wanna run here

and run whatever elite bc u wont need lyssa runes. other runes will give u MUCH MUCH more effect than a few – condis every 45 secs.

rock dog runes (ogre)
scholar runes
10% hp = mist runes (vamp?)

so many neat options that can help u save yourself.

hope this helps. not sure what kinda build u like running but it can be worked into 4/6 weaponsets and the 2 not working being p/p and s/p. well it can work…just not as well due to no stealth on weaponsets.

it should remove 2 condi for 2 init. anything more is OP or Too costly.

Maugetarr.6823:

Travlane.5948:

Dee Jay.2460:

We will have to wait to see the full extent of the upcoming changes before we break out into a QQ fest. Apparently Thieves can expect a range of QoL improvements (fix for Last Refuge).

Until then we better zip it.

quite the contrary. we should talk and express our opinions and desires as they usually switch many things or tweek last minute due to unrest or outcries of the masses. its very common and even said so in one of their livestreams.

Like it changed their decisions on the last patch? If I recall correctly, the only things they changed their minds on after the preview was vigorous recovery (cause a straight up 50% nerf was huge, so they changed that to a 35%+ nerf) and not moving flanking strikes up a tier (because there was literally nothing good to switch it with except maybe bountiful theft). Our input and arguments were largely ignored and the final patch notes resembled the preview almost verbatim.

big ones are usually set in stone. many small changes are made last minute and some due to public outcry.

“largely ignored” you said. yes they are. but something is better than nothing. trying is better than quitting. atleast until anet pushes us over.

Zero Day.2594:

Cynz.9437:

Dee Jay.2460:

We will have to wait to see the full extent of the upcoming changes before we break out into a QQ fest. Apparently Thieves can expect a range of QoL improvements (fix for Last Refuge).

Until then we better zip it.

yeaaaah that hard to catch was an amazing change yo….

;) I hear there will be more good things for the thief to come…
More improvements on hard to catch!

lol. just another reason we know anet doesnt like or play thief. they really think that its usable/good now.wow. stay tuned folks.

Dee Jay.2460:

We will have to wait to see the full extent of the upcoming changes before we break out into a QQ fest. Apparently Thieves can expect a range of QoL improvements (fix for Last Refuge).

Until then we better zip it.

quite the contrary. we should talk and express our opinions and desires as they usually switch many things or tweek last minute due to unrest or outcries of the masses. its very common and even said so in one of their livestreams.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Travlane.5948:

Stabu.1763:

Travlane.5948:

what is your goal for wvw? zerging or roaming?

Roaming!

if u plan on doing only 1v1 or MAYBE mediocre enemies on 1v2 then d/p is the way to go. if u play on doing 2v2 or 1v2 or 1v3 etc then id say p/d is the way to go. basically direct dmg for even 1v1 s and p/d carrion condi for larger attrition fights.

While those are two viable options, they aren’t exactly the only way OP can go. D/D burst takes much more skill and is just as apt at 1vX fights as D/P is, and he can always go P/P if he enjoys the playstyle (and having dual Quips with unload is more hilarious than a ranger spamming 1 with The Dreamer).

i personally dont like d/d bc the only line of defense lies within your utilities.

deathblossom was meant to be the defensive part of d/d but its obviously a total bust.

personally if they turned 4 into some kind of super low dmg but high utility skill on d/d that would have high evade or something it would make the set much much more viable.

dont be decieved by yishis. hes decent. well good. but anyone who looks back can vocalized that they had clairavoyance while playing. also it takes him weeks to make 1 video. when i made my vids i put mine in mostly unedited from a couple of hours straight in wvw. anyways to cut a long story short…all you see is those fights that happen 1 out of 20 times and put them together in a montage making it look viable. when in reality 80% of the time or more you either run….lose….hide…or have so much help from allies. its hard to actually get a 1vx fight and win…. especially with d/d. you need mediocre enemies in addition.

d/d is good … wvw is just not tha best place for it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The number of people going to be affected by this nerf is too miniscule for Anet to care. That’s the reality.

As for why they are doing this? They are obviously discouraging crit-builds that started back in Dec. 10 by nerfing the amount of Initiatives you get from crit-hits. Next is crit-damage and if that is not enough, we can assume that Power nerf is next in line.

They already made changes in the past that punished crit-builds by nerfing a lot of our survivability so that if you build ‘zerker, it’s a guarantee that you’ll shatter into million pieces — that was the nerfs to stealth, the only protection that ’zerkers can rely on.

However, time and time again ’zerker Thieves thumbs their nose at Anet so Anet is now putting away the nerf bat and taking out the nerf blaster cannon — boom! They might finally kill the build.

But once the crit-build is killed and every Thief are running condition damage build…they’ll start all over again. It will never end until the Thieves becomes Beggars.

this is true. this “change” (as anet likes to rename NERF lol) is a HUGE buff to guardians most of all and most other classes with great innate defenses like warrior/ele etc. defense becomes that much stronger when offense becomes that much weaker. hence thief having low defense and high offense gets hit the hardest. this is a indirect nerf affecting thief …by far…the hardest