Guild Wars 2

insanemaniac.2456:

not rampager, never rampager
ever
ever
even with the “dont need defense” justification

i run rampager amulet with carrion jewel in SPVP/TPVP and won 88% of my matches. ive played 180 matches in 5 days to testit out. works gr8

i noticed this too. i cast RF and then dodge or get intterupted or weaponswap…. it goes on full cooldown and i dont get recharged. its a bug.

DeWolfe.2174:

I don’t care about stealth. What makes thieves OP is the immense burst capacity they have. Who cares about stealth when they’ll kill you in their initial rotation. This is purely in WvW where scaling is ridiculous. And no, the 10% crit nerf won’t help much. In WvW thieves need a minimum of 25% damage reduction. Especially on Heartseeker which takes no skill at all to use. Also, Initiative makes thieves WAY too macro friendly.

Thieves remind me of 3-5 year old little boys. Play fight with your kids and you’ll see they put their heads down and charge at you. Flailing and swinging as you usually just put you hand on their head and hold them at bay. That’s kinda the way dagger Thieves are. Even the animation is that way. The exception is, 3-5 year olds don’t hit like the Incredible Hulk! Thieves should be annoying and fast, with stealth. Not all that and being a powerhouse too. That’s why they are OP in WvW.

you realize 2 other classes arguably 4…can do the same exact thing within less than a second of thief or just as fast? mmmm? so lets nerf all 4 and buff thief defense bc the lack of defense is thewhole reason for our burst. agreed?

Reikou.7068:

Travlane.5948:

im talking about dmg. and at higher lvl play…thief has NO chance against many classes…. 3 in particular. Engineer, necro, guardian. they totally laugh at GC thief. thing is you are like many other players you consider 1v1 to be the benchmark for considering OP’ness. has absolutely near nothing to do with OP. is op being able to kill 1 person in 3 secs? or being able to battle 10 people for 30 secs without dying? in that case warrior,engineer,necro,guardian are all OP. theif cant last 3 secs against 10 people. even with stealth. i know bc ive been playing engineer and my build alone has 6 or 7 things to deal with stealth…not specifically but can. i laugh at thieves when i play engineer… and when im on my thief (main) i really dont want to run into them or necros….as the good ones will rip you apart or you will end up playing “run away heal and reengage game” which costs your team ALOT of strategic advantage. in general running thief costs team.

few suggestsions that would make thief a better team player. maybe not all but some or mixed few together.

1) make thief medium tier HP base
2) increase condi removal non stealth based
3) Fix P/P set entirely so it has Aoe fire/burn (6 init) and aoe poison(4-5 init)
4) unroot Pistol whip
5) Reverse IR nerf
6) increase base toughness 7-8% in spvp/tpvp only

i have dozens more butall pretty small changes.

if you want to talk about “higher level play” please at least play at the “higher level.”

Your post reeks of severe misinformation and major L2P issues that aren’t existent in “higher level play.”

For one, depending on weaponset choice, Thief has a 4/6 Matchup vs both Engineer and Necromancer (in favor of the latter,) and maybe a 3/7 matchup vs GC Guardian. VS Bunker Guardian, I’d say the matchup is probably 7/3 favor of thief. “No chance?” not really, just L2P.

If you want to talk about hard counters, try playing a Condi Engineer vs Condi Necro THEN come back to talk about “no chance.”

thats all i have been playing this week. rampagers engineer and i do find necros the hardest but conditions dont bother me at all. really. almost at all. so not sure what ur talking about. oh you mean the full condition transfer? yeah that doesnt bother me at all. plz look up some engineer skills/traits. particularly turret cleanse and autmated response.

NinjaEd.3946:

Travlane.5948:

few suggestsions that would make thief a better team player. maybe not all but some or mixed few together.

1) make thief medium tier HP base
2) increase condi removal non stealth based
3) Fix P/P set entirely so it has Aoe fire/burn (6 init) and aoe poison(4-5 init)
4) unroot Pistol whip
5) Reverse IR nerf
6) increase base toughness 7-8% in spvp/tpvp only

i have dozens more butall pretty small changes.

What? You were off to a good start and as soon as you hit 3 I lost ya. Pistol whip hits like a truck IF you manage to get the enemy to stand still, which is next to impossible alone without some long cooldowns (DV, BV). Letting someone run at you with a lawn mower would be broken beyond belief.

And thief doesn’t need burn, they just need to bump the pressure we can apply with bleeds and give us more options for poison/torment. Pistol aa just needs to be more obvious in what it wants. If you use p/x for condi, 99% you are p/d, in which case you have CnD, which means stealth, which means sneak attack. Bump the bleed duration from sneak attack (buff for condi p/d), and buff the direct damage of the aa while reducing the aftercast (buff for power p/p). The aa needs to be more clear in what its there for, especially for a hybrid weapon set on the class that least likely works as a hybrid. Condi pistol uses sneak attack and aa and #3, power pistol should use more than unload for its effective dps.

some were suggested bc p/p has no defense so it might as well push people off areas or something. pistol whip is strong but s/p doesnt help when u run thru AOE in wvw and die in 3 secs but unrooted u can do some dmg to a few people before you die. same in spvp when you are on a cap…ucant stay in the cap and fight so they end up cappingit bc thief evades/invis/dodge/runs away etc. IR nerf is annoying for players to fight against but its the only not stealth way to get away from dmg. i think that on stuns it should NOT work…but anything else should be instant like normal shadow returns. toughness in spvp/tpvp is a must. just enough to give a lil bit of cap support. thief HP is arguably fine in spvp/tpvp but our dmg is capped so our lack of defense really hurts that much more.

everyone says these buidls are cheese but if u play an aggressive version like 10 0 30 0 30 like i play…and im never in stealth more than 1 sec…like hte first couple fights i saw here….. then thatsn ot cheese. its not like we are hiding etc. its a good build! nice video

in pvp? you mean spvp/tpvp right?

you need to state 1 of 2 goals.

1) do you wish to have fun and just kill people in 1v1 or 2v2?
2) do you wish to do well and help your team win?

you cannot do both of these as a thief. thief is more for killing people in very small combat in spvp/tpvp. i main thief and have to reroll another class when i play spvp/tpvp ONLY bc i like to win…not just kill people 1v1. stealth/dodges/resetting combat/hiding/backing off points all of these things incredibly hurt your team and they are integral parts of the thieve class. when i see a thief enter spvp i automatically join the other team or the team with less thieves. doing so i have neawr 90% win success on my engineer/warrior (engineer 150 matches warrior 4 matches lol) i have about 60% win success on my thief and he has done everything since launch. same thing in wvw if you play that. its really hard to be AS productive as another class bc they can do it all better….except scout, solo camps and 1v1 (even thief is only top 3 in 1v1 not top 1 like many would think)

phaeris.7604:

Videos like this just really put into perspective all thieves who claim they have no real defences.

defense ….no they dont. escapes? yes they do. think you are using the wrong terminology but i get your point. thieves can get away pretty well.

i use flame thrower for the AOE knockback (best in game in my opinion) and the blind plus fire field and AOE dmg from skill 2. i do like elixir gun but the poison on that is so useless i only find myself using skills 4 + 5.

i do run p/s ….p/p didnt didnt do as well ….rifle was amazing but like it better for wvw where i have more room to use it with elixir gun.

gonna think of dropping 10 points in crit/condi line for perma swiftness on kit change. really hate losing that 10% crit chance and 280 condition dmg tho.

actually there is no “scavenging runes” in spvp :/ no wonder i forgot about them

Meant to say im using 1 of those 2 sigils and keep switching….other one is Sigil of fire.

also ill be losing like 280 condition dmg 10% crit chance (down to 42%) all for swiftness and vigor? i totally agree i need swiftness but is it worth the trade off? and i LOOOOOOOVE rifled barrels as engineer i cant seem to catch up to people even w/ swiftness. without rifle or exlir gun or rocket boots and no ports of sorts i cant seem to keep up when those pesky warriors/eles/guardians decide to flutter away. i know its not about chasing … i guess but still a thought.

THANK YOU FOR SCAVENGING tip. i just changed. forgot about those suckers

grenade kit + bomb kit + elixir S is all u need maybe add a turret in or something.

Ok. First off let me say I main thief for 99% of my GW2 time. They are fun. just plain fun. I have recently moved to engineer as i want to do more in wvw/spvp/tpvp other than be a selfish 1v1 player. I have played 130 matches and won 105. I think thats decent since im brand-new to the class but im still trying to learn more and get critiques. Here is what im running and how i play. please be constructive.

20/20/0/30/0

Accelerant-Packed Turrets – Turrets blow up + 300 knockback
Incendiary Powder – Burning on Critical Hit

Rifled Barrels – +200 range on shots
Hair Trigger – 20% less cooldown on skills

Blood Injection – 7% of vitality = condition damage
Backpack Regenerator – 118hp per sec with a kit equipped
Automated Response – No conditions under 25% hp

UTILITIES—————
Healing Turret (heal dmg +condi removal over 25% hp works gr8)
Tool Kit (skill 34+5 are just amazing)
Flamethrower Kit (skills 5 help to stomp skill 3 prevents stomp and the rest are good too)
Elixir S (obvious)
Supply Crate (obvious + they blow up and knockback)

WEAPONS + SIGILS——————
PISTOL (main hand)
SHIELD (off hand)
Sigil of Hydromancy (use this to slow down a heal after i interrupt)
Sigil of Battle (obvious)

RUNES—————-
Rune of the Undead (x6) (Only rune set i could find with a useful #6)

ACC—————-
Rampagers Amulet + Carrion Jewel

21,672 HP – 52% crit chance – 2444 attack

I only find necro difficult and mesmer depending on build but mesmer flutters out fast and after 10 secs they just start dying. i find i can hold a point plus put pressure on other bunkers. I chose rampagers after trying carrion and rabid but i find so many builds run anti-condition so i couldnt finish many classes like other engineers with automated response …atleast not easily.wheni switch to rampagers it changed.
Tool kit skill 4 + Shield skill 5 + Shield skill 4 + Flamethrow kit 3 + Elixir S + Flamethrower kit 5 seem to be where i put my defensive reliance on.

open to suggestions/tips etc. ty.

Reikou.7068:

Travlane.5948:

GC thief can kill another GC thief in 3 seconds. a GC mesmer or guardian or several others can do it in 4 seconds if not also somtimes in 3 secs. we are talking such nominal differences here. GC goes down fast against GC. people think “thieves kill GC so fast” but its bc thieves usually run GC….. now if other classes usually run GC u would say GC builds just die fast. but the fact we think"THIEF" when the word GC comes up ….its basically an unfair connection based off of a very high average. GC does not belong to thief class alone. thief does run GC much more than any other classes combined. GC on ANY class will be melted by other GC builds also on any other class.

I get the feeling we’re talking about incredibly different levels of play and competition.

And GC thief vs GC thief fights usually last much longer than 3 seconds, mostly because of the stealth mechanic. Mesmer has Decoy as well. Guardians have shelter, and meditation heals, etc.

im talking about dmg. and at higher lvl play…thief has NO chance against many classes…. 3 in particular. Engineer, necro, guardian. they totally laugh at GC thief. thing is you are like many other players you consider 1v1 to be the benchmark for considering OP’ness. has absolutely near nothing to do with OP. is op being able to kill 1 person in 3 secs? or being able to battle 10 people for 30 secs without dying? in that case warrior,engineer,necro,guardian are all OP. theif cant last 3 secs against 10 people. even with stealth. i know bc ive been playing engineer and my build alone has 6 or 7 things to deal with stealth…not specifically but can. i laugh at thieves when i play engineer… and when im on my thief (main) i really dont want to run into them or necros….as the good ones will rip you apart or you will end up playing “run away heal and reengage game” which costs your team ALOT of strategic advantage. in general running thief costs team.

few suggestsions that would make thief a better team player. maybe not all but some or mixed few together.

1) make thief medium tier HP base
2) increase condi removal non stealth based
3) Fix P/P set entirely so it has Aoe fire/burn (6 init) and aoe poison(4-5 init)
4) unroot Pistol whip
5) Reverse IR nerf
6) increase base toughness 7-8% in spvp/tpvp only

i have dozens more butall pretty small changes.

Reikou.7068:

Travlane.5948:

everything has a risk…. and nobody runs GC other than thieves and dum dums :P GC has no place in team play

Nobody runs GC other than thieves because nobody else can as they just get destroyed by thieves.

Regarding GC builds in team play, I’d say glkittenter Mes is still very powerful, but one of the biggest reasons they’re out of the meta atm is because of thieves. GC Meditation Burst Guardians also are quite powerful. Berserker Hambow Warriors are also good in teamplay, although it would depend on if you consider berserker hambow warriors “bruisers” or “GC” GC Power Necros are also very strong and still see play somewhat. GC Eles are also kinda gimmicky, but they can be powerful if played well simply that the input/output ratio compared to a GC thief is just really imbalanced.

GC thief can kill another GC thief in 3 seconds. a GC mesmer or guardian or several others can do it in 4 seconds if not also somtimes in 3 secs. we are talking such nominal differences here. GC goes down fast against GC. people think “thieves kill GC so fast” but its bc thieves usually run GC….. now if other classes usually run GC u would say GC builds just die fast. but the fact we think"THIEF" when the word GC comes up ….its basically an unfair connection based off of a very high average. GC does not belong to thief class alone. thief does run GC much more than any other classes combined. GC on ANY class will be melted by other GC builds also on any other class.

Wintel.4873:

DeceiverX.8361:

So basically because glass builds are afraid to die, it makes thief OP?

You need to re-word your statement to this:
“So basically because all glass builds get destroyed by thieves, it makes thief OP?”
To which I would respond “Yes”.

The rest of your post solidifies my point further, because you openly admit that thieves hard-counter all other glass builds and trying to justify why it should stay that way:

I don’t understand. The whole point of building an assassin in any game is to deny the opponents’ DPS. Most of this “drive away” has to do with offhand pistol blind field and less with stealth, seeing as in sPvP thief burst damage is just straight up bad because crit damage caps at 60% as opposed to 122% in WvW. The blind field simply prevents easy retaliation and allows for HS-permastealth. I need to keep iterating this in every thief QQ thread I see, because the hate is misdirected. The counter to DPS is to assassinate them. What does this mean? The thief if matched up against a player of equal skill will be at a stark disadvantage of the opponent isn’t a GC because they lack the burst to kill them efficiently and the staying power to actually deal sufficient damage to finish off a tankier foe.

everything has a risk…. and nobody runs GC other than thieves and dum dums :P GC has no place in team play

DeceiverX.8361:

Helicity.3416:

DeceiverX.8361:

And the saddest part is that our damage isn’t even the best burst in the game. Warriors, mesmers, guardians (yep), necromancers, and elementalists actually have better burst throughput.

Except this is not true. Provided you’re not terrible at thief you can wear down defensive cooldowns of every other class with repeated bursts faster than they can come back up. The repeated Reset -> Burst cycle of thief is greater than even a shatter mesmer’s

In addition (excepting some peculiar warrior builds) none of them can catch you; this means that unless you are very impatient and greedy the WORST you will do in a WvW fight is escape.

This is the reason why people have legitimate complaints about Thieves, the mix of truly impressive damage paired with resets and escape ability leads to intensely frustrating play experiences for the other player.

Try playing a necro for a while on a T1 WvW server and go roam, and you will swiftly learn why everyone hates Thieves.

That’s not burst, that’s sustained pressure. Burst is the capacity to frontload immense damage into a very short period of time. The only skills the thief has which can do damage coefficients to such extents are backstab and pistol whip.

Plenty of classes can catch you. Mesmer GS has ranged advantage, equal stealth potency, mesmer AOE shatter/teleport, ranger has both a reveal and stealth tracking and the ranged advantage, Warrior running a sword can catch you. A decent guard can teleport and/or CC you. Necros and eles can chill/immobilize/cripple at range.

It was stated T1 is more about zergs. It’s arguable some of the lower-tier servers have better roaming parties than T1’s do. To also expect play is better on T1 servers is ludicrous seeing as most players on the T1 servers now have just bandwagoned there. What SoR did in S1 last year was impressive, and that’s my former server (moved down to FC due to a large group of friends from another game playing there). If you’re roaming as a solo necro, you’re doing it wrong, and even then, necromancers stand a much better chance against thieves than a lot of other classes due to death shroud giving them so much health and all the AOE/condi potential they have.

To call thieves OP because they solo roam better than other classes is totally absurd. That’s the specialty niche role the class is designed to perform in and is lackluster in all other aspects of the game. This is the same source of complaints from scrubs in tPvP thinking that because thieves are better solo roamers than mesmers and eles, they need to be nerfed. It has to do with the meta and the role the player is trying to perform more than the class having numbers that are too high.

Wintel.4873:

Final point, and this one is completely valid and not me venting my frustration – Thieves have all the tools to completely destroy all other glass/zerker builds and are basically driving glassy PvP builds to extinction. Big thread about it:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Thieves-driving-away-damage-dealers/first

So basically because glass builds are afraid to die, it makes thief OP?

I don’t understand. The whole point of building an assassin in any game is to deny the opponents’ DPS. Most of this “drive away” has to do with offhand pistol blind field and less with stealth, seeing as in sPvP thief burst damage is just straight up bad because crit damage caps at 60% as opposed to 122% in WvW. The blind field simply prevents easy retaliation and allows for HS-permastealth. I need to keep iterating this in every thief QQ thread I see, because the hate is misdirected. The counter to DPS is to assassinate them. What does this mean? The thief if matched up against a player of equal skill will be at a stark disadvantage of the opponent isn’t a GC because they lack the burst to kill them efficiently and the staying power to actually deal sufficient damage to finish off a tankier foe.

well said. you SHOULD not nerf characters based strictly on 1v1’ing. should be 80% teamplay and 20% solo 1v1 play ratio based on how OP they are. thief is top 3 in 1v1’ing but dead last in group play. should they be nerfed? no they should be buffed so they can play team play. engineer and mesmer are both as good or or better(engineer) in 1v1…. its just bad players that have a hard time with it. gw2 has no tutorials like gw1 had. i noticed that really probably made atleast a LITTLE bit of difference too.

the set is usless in team play even without condi problems. :/ aoe and bounce/ricochet dmg alone is going to own that build. you need the misdirection from stealth or atleast PW evade

Dee Jay.2460:

It’s funny you say that with Sword Pistol being the new fotm.

I’m playing it and I think it’s awesome and incredibly effective.

not sure how those 2 sentances connect….. ????

KeyOrion.9506:

Any glass cannon that can 1-2, or 1-2-3 hits and down an opponent 100% of the time…I believe to be way over the top.

Toughness doesn’t seem to do jack squat unless you fall from a cliff. Whereas vitality against a 1-2 hit is the only thing that’ll keep people up and in combat.

But then you stealth if the enemy survives, then go back at them with pistol whip, stun, 1-2 hit, and their down.

Can’t hit a target, if your not allowed to target an enemy in stealth mode. We can AoE blanket the area, but most thieves will pull back a distance.

Then you have 3-5 players, wasting their time, playing pin the tail on the thief to take them out.

People don’t “cry” about it.

Their just kittened OFF about it. There is a difference.

Unfortunately I fully believe that 1/2 the team in arenet main nothing BUT thieves. I seen one play necromancer, and was quite SHOCKED. But, seen nothing but a lot of Dev thieves during logins in way to many areas.

its not 100% of the time. its ONLY when opponent is using low hp low toughness builds and is not a heavy.

lets be honest k?

also in tpvp/spvp they are quite useless and in wvw they are left to shortbow which is 900 range. thieves are quite useless and anyone who bases OP’ness on 1v1 skills is pretty simple minded.

kaikalii.4198:

I’ve just recently gotten into engi, and it’s a ton of fun! I’ve been getting a bit tired of maiming mesmer, as it has a lot of shortcomings in WvW and sPvP. I’m also really tired of reliance on ai, so engi is a welcome change.

Bad things first, I hate grenades, and to a lesser extent, bombs. The spamming play style of th two kits is probably the most boring in the entire game. Flamethrower is a lot of fun, but it seems to lack something viability wise that I just can’t put my finger on.

In PvP, I’ve tried p/p hgh condition and standard sd builds to a good degree of success. I just have a few questions about other viable things.

-How well does power rifle hgh work?
-Is there anything that focuses a good amount on the tool kit or elixir gun?
-I beg for a turret build that actually works
-a gadget lockdown build? Ie: mine, battering ram, oil shoes

its really nice and super refreshing to hear somebody say they are tired of relying on AI. its the reason i dont play mesmer. they messed it up so much from GW1. i loved my mesmer in gw1.

kudos for trying something different and being truthful!

it MIGHT work like the condi removal…. in the sense it activates 1 when u enter…then again after the said timing.

for instance….. remove 1 condition on stealth every 3 secs. you remove 1 when u enter…and another 3 secs later.

im guessing you get stealth then +1 init….then again 10 secs later if u stay in stealth or reenter.

GUESSING! im nto sure bc ive never tried the crap trait.

the only bright spot of S/P is the evade. nothing else.

whats that you say PW does good dmg? not in SPVP and you can walk away (not even dodge) without being hit with 33% of the dmg.

whats that you say BPS? yeah its good but the aoe still gonna kill you.

whats that you say IS/IR is good? heh…yeah go try it.

whats that you say head shot is good? yes it is…but super circumstantial.

s/p is garbage set and is fully depending on timing, circumstance, and utilities.

that said…why is everyone playing it right now?

1) best defense that still helps you cap (pistol whip evade)
2) the other builds suck and hurt your team

Sunt.6835:

NinjaEd.3946:

1 second makes little to no difference in wvw. Pvp maybe, things tend to be close quarters and often quick but wvw is open and unpredictable.

Thief isn’t op, OP. It’s a learning curve that people are either lazy or selfish to learn. When playing against other players there are multiple things to learn.

Too many conditions? Bring condi clear/negation.
Too many stuns? Bring a stun breaker.
Too many evasions? Bring lock-down abilities like immobilize, and cc.
Too much damage? They prolly die in seconds, out smart them.
Too much stealth? WELL, you could, _______ (multiple suggestions, varies by profession and build).

Problem is stealth counters aren’t obvious, they are learned by playing the game. Most people rather just get a 1200 aoe reveal for 20 seconds and call that a fair buff to their class to deal with thieves, because they don’t care to L2P. It’s a sad truth, most people aren’t interested in working on kills. I can bet that atleast 80% or more of main-thieves rarely run into troubles when playing against other thieves. Why? Because they know what to expect and how their things work.

Thief isn’t broken, and stealth isn’t broken (which btw Mesmer has). It’s the ability to ask questions and learn that is absent.

Stealth is not broken. 30 shadow arts is broken
They ban SA and PU in touney for a reason

they ban PU bc the AI does the dmg while stealthed…takes almost no skill.

they ban Shadow refuge/healing in stealth bc a thief can go stealth andheal…. without this they die. with this the match is long.

you compare it in 1v1 to game play. in game play going stealth for long time or evading or running or hiding HURTS your team/zerg/guild/party etc. it makes them at a disadvantage. 100v100 thief against any other class will always lose…they are only meant for 1v1. nothing else….as of now.

Zero Day.2594:

Aen Gelinor.4062:

Me say remove all professions from the game, they’re op. We can play as ranger pets.

Leave the warrior. Warrior is balanced. (I think they’ve said it’s in a good place)

warrior condi removal….. PASSIVE and best in game (top 2 unarguable)
warrior hp….top tier in game
warrior toughness….. top tier in game
warrior armor…..top tier in game
warrior offense….top tier in game….
warrior healing…..PASSIVE and best in game (top 2 unarguable)

all the above in the same build too. but not OP? name me on other class that is even close.

i just played on my engineer for 30 + matchesin a row. i switched servers to make sure it would be a better sample population too.

there were about 12 matches with atleast 2 thieves. the team with 2+ thieves lost 100% of all matches.

where there were 1 thief on a team and – thieves on a team….the team with the thief lost 85%+ of the time.

when there was an even amount of thieves on each team i did not bother noting the results as they would be non relevant.

this isnt just 30 matches that i found this to be true but as a general statistic/truth. thief is always hiding, dodge, stealthing, or running out of dmg area. they cant hold a point or stay alive long enough in larger fights (3+ enemies)…. they are a huge risk to every team and when i play spvp/tpvp i make sure there are no thieves on my team if possible OR….1 max. if there are 2+ i know i am going to lose.

Saturn.6591:

Travlane.5948:

so a thieves usefullness lies in the dmg it can do. thats it. nothign else really. caltrops is the only skill they ahve that can put pressure on a point… and thats not enough without pulse dmg too. so if they cap crit dmg thief loses its edge on dmg….

They already stated from the very beginning that they will not change crit-damage in PvP, as they feel it’s in a good spot there already. Thus, it will not affect Thief (or any other class) in PvP at all.

right… i know this. i suggested on other threads one or a few of the following.

1) give thief more ports
2) give thief more access to blinds
3) give thief 2nd tier base HP
4) give thief access to parry with sword/dagger offhand or something of the such

Hype.8032:

I’ve defended thief on nearly every nerf but I voiced out about that BS skill. At least with FS/LS the evade part is separate from the damage portion. You have to risk taking damage to deal it. S/P is way way way too easy to play and that’s the main reason I hate it. Often the best way to play it is to press 3 repeatedly, not moving around, not dodging, just chaining pw on top of pw… could it be more boring? Hopefully they’ll change the skill into two parts and find a way to make it require some measure of skill to be good with it.

That being said, it’s disgusting that a dev made a thread specifically about PW while ignoring all the other issues with the rest of the professions. How about a bit of unbiased decision making?

skill 2 is unusable. skill 4 is rarely used (only on heals)…skill 5 is not used bc its 50% of your total init leaving room for 1-2 attacks before you need to run/hide/heal/regain init.

PW kinda sux unless somebody roots/immobs your target or freezes them. i never lose against pw. i kind of prefer it to be honest…playing against it i mean.

the dmg is eh in spvp/tpvp but its gr8 in wvw …but in that sense PW isnt playable in WVW bc of the zerg style gaming. thief in general is no longer viable in any player v player sense…wvw tpvp spvp. you ALWAYS should take another class.

this is why people are quitting the game. ANET is a bunch of HACKS. they have no intelligence. i dont mean that to be mean…but come on…. never more than 33% of PW dmg actually hits unless ap layer is dumb enough to stand still. another thing is that there is lag time before and after the skill that leaves the player open to dmg…basically 50% of the skill evades 50% leaves you open to dmg….and having low defense/armor/hp/toughness …you are likely gonna die if its more than 2v2.

thief is a joke in spvp/tpvp and arguably in wvw .

mind scar.5706:

Travlane.5948:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Lamuness.3570:

I really think that they complain because we’re really annoying to fight, rather than the fact that they’re OP.

Clone / phantasm Mesmers are the MOST annoying to fight by far because they drop stuff that damages you WHILE they’re in stealth, and you have to go through this clicking frenzy of actually targetting them. Even if you call target, when they drop into stealth that reticle drops.

Compare that to the fact that an Ele, Warrior, Necro, other Thieves, Engies can pretty much one shot us or make fields that we cannot even step foot into because our builds are so specific that we need to be super squishy, I think we’re pretty balanced in the sense that we’re high risk high reward.

I’ve played thief since launch, but I’m still noobish at pvp / wvw.

No people moan because it is brokenly OP. Not annoying to fight. Spirit rangers are annoying to fight. Thieves (every weapon set) are broken

thats a joke. i rarely ever lose to a thief on my ranger and im brand-new on him. what a joke. only time thieves are dangers are in wvw roaming. and that has no bearing on anything.

Dude, chill out, there are good classes. In-fact all the classes are good, but it’s the user that determines if that character will be good. If you think all thieves are good for is WvW roaming, roll a theif. Then come back to this thread and post.

roaming is like saying “im good at farming drakes” it really means nothing in the game.

thief w/ 1v1 build roaming to kill a warrior with Zerg v Zerg build. not many players other than thieves run 1v1 builds in wvw. so its obvious that thief has the upper hand as it is. just silly and meaning less while thief is crippled in spvp/tpvp bc of its best quality being capped and no compensation for that cap.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Lamuness.3570:

I really think that they complain because we’re really annoying to fight, rather than the fact that they’re OP.

Clone / phantasm Mesmers are the MOST annoying to fight by far because they drop stuff that damages you WHILE they’re in stealth, and you have to go through this clicking frenzy of actually targetting them. Even if you call target, when they drop into stealth that reticle drops.

Compare that to the fact that an Ele, Warrior, Necro, other Thieves, Engies can pretty much one shot us or make fields that we cannot even step foot into because our builds are so specific that we need to be super squishy, I think we’re pretty balanced in the sense that we’re high risk high reward.

I’ve played thief since launch, but I’m still noobish at pvp / wvw.

No people moan because it is brokenly OP. Not annoying to fight. Spirit rangers are annoying to fight. Thieves (every weapon set) are broken

thats a joke. i rarely ever lose to a thief on my ranger and im brand-new on him. what a joke. only time thieves are dangers are in wvw roaming. and that has no bearing on anything.

interceptor is right. if ur going small group that is the best way to go. venomsbuild with short bow. try not to run condi/tanky tho. need those clusters to do some nice dmg and trick shots too.

all that said…dont expect to play your role in the party better than another class is going to. if u wanna help your team…reroll. if u wanna have fun … play thief its why most of us are still here.

i fought a mesmer that was like PU…not exact but close. and alot of his dmg came while he was invis. when i got him low (10%) he would hide/invis on corner or whatever.

so i did the same. i was at 85% hp and used my utilities…not for defense like i should but to get more stealth and attacks from it (i never stealthed more than 1-2secs). i then started using CND CND CND til a couple of them recharged. he had super high hp/defense so it wasnt a quick burst game.

THEN…he calls me cheese and quits. im like well u hide behind stealth AND Artificial intelligence. ive been saying forever they need to put more of a burden from the clones to the mesmer. or atleast cut their stealth times in half. the way it is…mesmer can get into stealth much easier and more steadily than a thief can. if a thief uses stealth…hes low on inititiative or blowing a 50-60 sec cooldown utility.

when a PU mesmer goes stealth…its for 3-4 secs at a time….. but the thing is they never really get “revealed” bc its their clones doing all the work… not an actual attack from themselves. its redic and cheese.

TIP: never feel bad losing to PU mesmer. the truth is you lost to the game…not the player behind it.

TIP 2: thieves guild thieves are weaker than clones…. (traited clones)….even knowing this if u were able to make 3 thieves at a time every few secs at will…u would crush the mesmer. MOST mesmers (like warriors) are not good. they are just relying on AI to do the work. blowing up or dmging from the “gs clone”

actually kinda has a point here.

Form.8741:

I don’t understand what people don’t understand about thief not being able to do enough damage to KILL anybody at all if they don’t go full zerk in PVP and mostly zerk/valk/etc. crit% in WvW. We don’t have high enough base damage to NOT go damage builds. PVT thief is as impotent as healthief is as impotent as any other combination that does not have crit buffs.

We are a CRIT profession, because our base damage is no better than any others and maybe worse than a few, and because everyone else is so much more survivable one way or another than us (more HP or more defense or more defensive buffs/heals/etc.) by default…and all of our survivability skills require active skill/effort and good timing that the others don’t need (they just spam through the skill list over and over with each CD).

The systems that the other professions have all allow them to fully heal from all the damage a non-crit-based thief can do, meaning the only way a thief can win is if the enemy forgets to heal at all for the entire fight…which, plain and simple, doesn’t happen with any decent player. Thief has to use so many evades/etc. for survival and its own active heals that it can’t be applying pressure 100% of the time. Anytime there’s a lull is an easy time for others to heal/regen/etc.

Therefore, until heals get nerfed for other professions, thief will never be able to do enough damage without crit % to kill ANYBODY who isn’t a total nub.

really nicely stated! and the crit cap puts thieves at a disadvantage in spvp. they have no defense really no invuln no blocks no protection no aegis no stability no high hp no high armor no high tnoughens..(u get the point) bc of the dmg we can do….. COULD DO….if were not for a cap. so a thieves usefullness lies in the dmg it can do. thats it. nothign else really. caltrops is the only skill they ahve that can put pressure on a point… and thats not enough without pulse dmg too. so if they cap crit dmg thief loses its edge on dmg….whereas it doesnt get made up for in defense.

for example. some people are simple enough to think “well it affects all players so its fair…no one class gets outed”…. a very narrow minded perspective or ignorant.

if you reverse this….look at it this way…pretend theres no crit dmg cap but there IS a defense cap. so lets say defense was capped so players couldnt run super bunker and be trolls. so all classes have a cap on defense. so it is fair right? no one class is outed? well look at it this way. it wont affect thief at all bc its nowhere near cap. but warrior/guardian/engineer/ele those classes are affected according to build but usually the more tanky. so now the thief can kill them even easier. but the thief is unnafected. the warrior/guardians bright spot (defense) is lower but their offense gains nothign for this loss. therefor THEY are hurt worse than thief.

the exact same thing happens but in offense with the crit cap

Zero Day.2594:

So, don’t know what other thieves do in sPvP, the only way I find my self usefull (as a thief) is (and i run P/D condi/bleed):
- “Backcapping”, provided the mobility (and lack of “Frontcapping” ability), I usually steal points when people are roaming in zergs (and they do sometimes). Should there be 1-2 enemies i can usually hold my ground until some backup arrives at which point the decision to stay or ditch is made (if it’s their backup and not mine).
- Making fights unfair. If I see a fight happening while traveling between two points and if I know that i can step in and unbalance it in our favor, i will. (So if there’s a 1v1 duel going on, I would step in, that sorta thing).

:\ That’s the only ways I find my self useful on the team. (Not so uncommon to be on as top of the winning team either, or 2nd place.)

any class can do that. every class can do that. its good tactics…but what you are talking about is nothign to do with thief. well in a way its limited to your tactics bc thief cant do what other classes can. but other classes can do what thief can. anyone can back cap or hop in on 1v1 2v2’s. but you are right. thief is best utilized with p/d as they can put pressure on points or hold ground longer. u can hold a point with d/p d/d or s/d or even s/p for more than 10 secs without being downed or invis.

my engineer can literally hold a point on 2v1 for 45 secs. its insane. warrior pretty good at that too …although i notice with warrior i do better in groups traveling and putting down dmg on players.

vincecontix.1264:

Zero Day.2594:

So, don’t know what other thieves do in sPvP, the only way I find my self usefull (as a thief) is (and i run P/D condi/bleed):
- “Backcapping”, provided the mobility (and lack of “Frontcapping” ability), I usually steal points when people are roaming in zergs (and they do sometimes). Should there be 1-2 enemies i can usually hold my ground until some backup arrives at which point the decision to stay or ditch is made (if it’s their backup and not mine).
- Making fights unfair. If I see a fight happening while traveling between two points and if I know that i can step in and unbalance it in our favor, i will. (So if there’s a 1v1 duel going on, I would step in, that sorta thing).

:\ That’s the only ways I find my self useful on the team. (Not so uncommon to be on as top of the winning team either, or 2nd place.)

The only time playing a pd condi thief works is in hot join or if you are playing against terribads with bad builds in soloQ but I guess its can work out sometimes because most the gw2 pop suck at this game. I do play pd bleed thief for fun sometimes with success but as I stated it only works due to other players incompetence not because its a viable option for thief.

Thiefs currently has to glass cannon to really be helpful to his team, even then you will have to put in much more effort than people playing bunker, tanky condi, ai builds of the other classes.

At same time I am glad thief isn’t as faceroll as some of the other classes and I love killing other thiefs when I am on a different class.

actually no …i play 10 30 0 0 30…and many other builds. only 1 out of liek 6 of my builds runs 30 in shadow arts. another 2 run 10 and 3 run 0 SA. so you are quite far off in your assumptions. i am a good dueler…. i play a lil bit of spvp but mostly wvw as its not biased against thief class. and a bit of PVE too. full ascended full legendaries…11k AP. im no nub.

point is….thief is hiding to heal…can only fight in the most opportune of times. 2v1s 3v2s. 2v2s. but when it comes to 3v3 or 5v5 or 2v3….hes at a very severe disadvantage due to incidental/collateral dmg from other players AOEs/attacks. their dmg isnt high enough like in wvw where it counterbalances there defense shortcomings. and their hp is so low that they get crushed by dmg. dont get me wrong they can fight well…just with a few asterisks on the comment. stealth is also completely horrible as it doesnt allow you to cap…and without stealth there is no condi removal…. i mean i cant consider 3 condi removal from SS enough to call it a removal part of class.

i played a short couple matches on mesmer and duels. it was so relaxing. stealthign…letting my clones do the dmg and conditions. i seriously only do a small part of the work. its more about timing them when to do what. dont even need a target. and who cares wha happens to them. i remake them in a moment.

engineer too. so much healing. condi control on offense and defense and dare i say more dodges on my build than my thief. plus aoe dmg and hes constantly using a skill…its like theres no cooldown.

TLDR: thief is so usless compared to other classes in spvp. they are single faceted fighters. burst dmg. nothing else is usefull on a thief. even burst dmg is mediocre bc of the cap which limits them as a class and biased as well due to their sshortcomings being a product of attacking prowess.

not to mention the 66% crit dmg cap in spvp is biased against thieves bc they rely so heavily on it.

mmm but my point is how useless and bad thieves are in spvp/tpvp.

you can set them up to be amazing 1v1 players but that really hurts teams. they die from aoe dmg from multiple players…. orthey go invis and ruin capping progress….or they hide….or back out to heal…. or at the best counterbalance by taking a straggler…which doesnt put you in the positive collumn…just keeps them busy.

AOE dmg and AOE heals and CC classes are actually usefull.

necro, engineer, warrior, guardian are the best and most used classes in spvp/tpvp. i dont understand why anet cant makethief a team player. his 1v1 skills arent even superior anymore. they USED TO be but that was a trade off for low defense. now we have low defense and lost our trade off.

i know some things influence this.

Time
amount of people attacking
dmg

i have seen many wierd things when it comes to contesting

So i have been doing some SPVP and TPVP lately and tried some other classes…guardian….necro…engineer. and i notice something

i cant stand having thieves on my team. everytime i have thieves on my team they are annoying…useless half the time…and we lose. they cant cap….they cant bunker…. the thing they do well is double team and kill fast. other than that i dont see a use for them. i have come to prefer…having 0 thieves on my team.

let me state i usually only play thief…and like 99% of the time. but wanted a refreshing perspective on wvw/pvp. its insane how bad thieves are in spvp/tpvp. if you look at it if people were to 1v1…yeah i guess thieves can do ok.. even well with good matchups. they arent underpowerd by any means. they are just not useful in team play.

the best team skill they have is probably caltrops. i would say shadow refuge but we all know stealth is bad in spvp/tpvp. Black powder is decent but too small to be a team skill….

again im not cracking on thieves…. it hink we some team play love from the devs.

p.s. engineer is insane. i cant lose to thief and im new.

cant see the build. comes up blank

if you wanna leave it at .5 secs…make it 0 init

TheThiefMaster.3812:

They should just use whatever code they use for withdraw , make it instant cast but not usable when stunned, as it stands its too clunky .

We can’t combo it with anything like we used to since the skill goes on a queue which makes the set less fun as it takes a lot of the skillful play out it.

For the life of me i can’t figure out how this idea made it out of the gate, some balance team they got, i bet they actually didn’t test it.

none of anet or devs etc play thief. they dont. there in lies half the problem.

its still a viable set in ….. PVE mwahahahahhaha

But in PVP/WVW i would NEVER use this. i would never use it in WVW before when it was 0 secs. just goesto show you its a pvp set only. we have 4 sec revealed in PVP and .5sec cast time on IR. seriously anet? you guys are not smart. really i think my cat is smarter.

Lupanic.6502:

Cygnus.6903:

DanSH.6143:

6. condi mace/sword Warrior

This made me lol.

Condi engineer beats all specs you listed.

I could also say condi engineer beats all.

terror necro and condi warrior are pretty hard vs condi engi. I would say terror necro is the worst enemy for condi engi because he sends all the condis back.

s/p thief are for all classes hard to counter because they jump on you with IS -> pistol whip->IR and repeat

that move is doable once per 11 secs max. 11 init = 11 seconds. pfft :P

Fenrir.3609:

Travlane.5948:

so running full zerk plus 30 in crit dmg line and 30 in healing line isnt zerk?

Not sure if you are being funny but no, it clearly isn’t. I’m not sure how anyone can think having 30 in the healing line is “full zerk” or anything close to it.

I have seen some convincing and well thought out threads/posts pointing to the fact that warrior is in too good a place at the moment, or at least certain aspects of it. Sadly, this thread isn’t one of them.

This is predominantly because you still seem to confuse what is essentially an issue with skill reqs and passive play, with something being “OP”. They are not the same thing.

If someone wants to make a case against passive cheese play and low skill reqs, they would cite the kind of arguments you have used (sort of).

If though someone wants to make a case for OP, then they would need to demonstrate exactly how and why, at the top tier of tpvp, warrior outperforms other classes in the major roles (point decap, control bunker, roamer/back point taker etc). Then demonstrate just why multiple warriors are utilized per team (across most of the teams, not one or two of them) at the top level.

They would not show how you can whomp noobs or list “1st in HP and armorz!”.

Note I’m not trying to defend warrior here per say, I just think the reasons and arguments presented in this thread seem to be unsuited to the intended purpose of trying to demonstrate the class as being OP.

And in all honesty, the title is rather leading/troll bait.

i didnt say full zerk. i said zerk. if ur 90% zerk….i consider it zerk.

you get 300 points in healing line. with is healing +300. but you get like 1500 points in power 1500 poitns in precision and alot in crit dmg too. so in the end putting 30 points into healing only makes the build like 85 or 90% zerk. still basically a zerk build.

if u dont understand ill do the full math for you…. :P

Tao.5096:

So, how does it work?
I’m in balanced mode, I can kill gc thief in 3 sec so it’s fine.
But it’s not fine if thief can kill me in 3 sec too….

that kind of logic requires another bottle of whiskey :|

its bc when a thief goes GC it gets capped at 66% crit dmg. and other skills are nerfed too. but there is nothing given to thieves on defense for this loss.

yes other classes get the same cap but they already have defenses higher bc they cant reach the lvl thieves can. and THAT lvl is now unattainable in spvp so it kinda nullifies the point in making thieves so weak on defensive end.

i totally agree w/ u

eviscerate is more dmg than backstab…. so thats false.
100b is more dmg than unload…so again thats false

some classes have better burst dmg than warriors…like mesmerthey can do a 3 sec burst thats pretty high but after that they gotta wait. thats not dps thats burst.

you arent very good at this….

Arikyali.5804:

Fact: Thief stated to be OP
Theory: Thief was OP = everyone play thief
Action: Thief was nerfed to balance OPness
Outcome: More challenge in gameplay to be an OP thief
Idea: Warrior vs thief is usually in the warrior’s favor
Thoery 2: Players learn to play warriors to destroy the OP thieves
Conclusion: Warriors are the new OP

Why don’t we give everyone a taste of their own medicine, and go complain on other class threads on how OP they are?

thieves need to sacrifice all defense to have OP dmg. wariors dont. hrm.

warriors can be in top condi cleanse/hp /tough/armor/dmg…. all at the same time.