Guild Wars 2

seriously. somebody tell me this.

would u trade skills 2 3 4 5 on weaponset 1 and another skill on weaponset 2 and put them both on cooldown for 3.5 seconds of evade? until you say yes…. plz stop talking about this. bc if u say no…thats silly… well guess what? thats the equivalent of thief doing 3 3 3 on SB.

where is this coming from all the sudden. it feels like people just wanna QQ about thief. not ONCE have i read one complaint about this since beta. now theres 2 posts in a row. cmon .

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

anyway backstab requires perfect conditions and skill to set up.

It requires that you hit someone from the side/back with Dagger #1 while stealthed. It’s not rocket science. Thief has an kit designed around helping you create the opportunity for this. It’s just a matter of execution.

nobody said it was. in an explanatory sense, yes its easy. but against a real opponent of decent to great skill? very hard. i cant rember the last time i was backstabbed.

either way PW is a burst skill. its just silly to call it sustained dmg.

OIIIIIO.7825:

For Clarity

Auto attacks are sustained damage because you can continually do them without stopping. To phrase it another way you can use auto attacks for an extended period of time without interruption. While an auto attack may may not be the best damage, by definition auto attacks are sustained damage.

gr8 point. this is why i said u define a \weaponset as burst or sustained by skills 2-5.

since PW is the only dmg skill and its a flurry of about 2 secs (point of impact to last point of impact) for 6-10k dmg…. depending on build. thats alot…. and only in 2 secs. that is about 3-5k dmg per sec. there is about a 1 sec precast too but even if u coutn that bc u dont use gap closers like steal/infil signet or infil strike or immobs….its 2000-3300 dmg per sec.

i gotta say …. improv seems to always hit (more often than not) skill types not equiped. even when i already ahve 2 diff types already equiped.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

dagger auto attack is similar to sword but a tiny bit faster. i guess dagger is sustained too.

Dagger has Backstab, which is about as bursty as you get, since you have other hard-hitting things to combine it with.

Nobody is running around plowing targets with Tactical Strike.

id call its spike…. burst is more like combo spike dmg…while spike is single hit high dmg. i know there is room for differentiation in definition as it its loose jargon that doesnt have a rightful place in the OED . anyway backstab requires perfect conditions and skill to set up. sword is just whack away + gap closers and immobs. both dagger and sword are burst. niether of them stand a competitive chance at sustained condi dmg. both require either high stealth or high evades or a mix of both. while p/d which is a more sustained set for dmg. i never stay stealthed more than 1 sec just to fire off sneak attack. yet it holds its defense and is constant dmg (aka sustained) even when im not attacking or am invis.

• all comments above are in combat examples… or else all weapons could be burst or sustained if u dont have to dodge/heal/evade or block etc.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

skills 2-5. show me what is sustained.

Skills #2, 4 and 5 don’t have damage worth making hay over.

Skill #3 has all of its damage backloaded on the end of the skill. You can’t get there without going through the wind-up, stun, and aftercast recovery of the first hit (which doesn’t hit very hard).

Skill #1 is in the same situation as Pistol Whip, the biggest hit is at the end of the chain, and it has a considerable windup.

omg its like 2nd grade in here.

Enough with this, please. If you keep getting infracted, you’re eventually going to get banned.

now thats whati was looking for. somethign with meat i could respond to. skill 1 with zerk build is 2800 2800 4800 roughly (crits). dagger is considered a burst set but does less dmg….although…. it doest it slightly faster. so id say it almost balances out. would u call dagger sustained dmg too? CND is all back end. BS takes 3-4x longer than PW bc it requires a few things. stealth, run behind opponent, strike successfully. with pistol whip its almsot always used with immob or infil sig or steal or SS. never really spammed so i wouldnt call it back endheavy in the sense that using it ….u never wind up next to the opponent…atleast not while visibile.

1) same DPS on Auto attack as sword (slower but higher dmg which balances)
2) PW is a burst skill and takes less time setting up then BS
3) 2 4 5 have no dmg to talk about really and no conditions that deal dmg

basically to say ….thief has onlY SB as a sustained dmg. poison+bleeds+spike dmg + aoe dmg + CC + ricochet on skill 1 (aa). u can keep using the SB without stopping to do dmg. with sword you need to BPS or dodge or use IR or evade with PW etc etc. with SB u just 1 1 3 4 2 1 1 3 1 etc. u just keep going with the dmg.

dagger auto attack is similar to sword but a tiny bit faster. i guess dagger is sustained too. lol. hrm… pistol …. well thatssustained too i guess bc it has condi and 1500 per direct attack for auto attack. yup. all sustained. all auto attacks are sustained i suppose.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

also…guys…u cant call a weaponset spike, sustained, or condi on AA alone. :P

S/P doesn’t even know what “spike” is. It’s a sustained DPS weaponset. End of story.

skills 2-5. show me what is sustained. im right you are wrong. nanaanana boo boo. :P lol i mean cmon u are doing the same as viking. point out why u think that. bc its just an opinion unless u back it up. or atleast TRY lol. omg its like 2nd grade in here.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

yes. that IS nice. but thats ALL that really changes from lyssa runes. the boons are useless really. you get a one time cleanse. but in the long term of a fight/battle i can show that otherrunes give more productivity. perhaps not condi cleans but more dmg or more dmg reduction or utitlity etc.

I’ve got bad news: both of you are wrong.

The guy you’re replying to is wrong, because the boons on Lyssa #6 last for 5 seconds, not 3 seconds. They are also subject to boon duration modifiers, which means a 30 Acrobatics Thief has 6.5 seconds on all buffs. That’s plenty of time to make something happen or turn a fight around.

And you are wrong, because Lyssa #4 (random boon on Heal) is quite excellent. The boon lasts for 10s at base (and again, for Acrobatics Thieves, up to 13s), and only one boon (Swiftness) is kinda lame. Pair Lyssa along Withdraw, and you are cooking with fire. Protection is especially hilarious when you get it.

im talking about ruen #6. its not worth taking a full runeset for. usually #6 is what decides a runesets worth. #3 is a nice lil bonus/balancer to give more utility. there are numerous other runes that give much better productivity over all. lyssa is quite low. u dont get anything from 5 secs of boons other than perhaps aegis used and 1 or 2 attacks EVERY SO SLIGHTLY boosted dmg. the only thing you can really add up is the -conditions cleansed. its nice and helps….but its a standard and stactic effect which means it doesnt help u throughout the fight…just once or perhaps twice by clearing conditions. which is nothign to sneer at….but its still not good enough to say “ok my lyssa runes are my condi cleanse so i dont need to bring any condi cleanse”. actually even with lyssa runes u need to bring the same amount of condi cleanse you always do.

Mordecai.6318:

Remus.7312:

Hey, Thats my guildie!
I am not 100% sure on his build but I run something very similar.
It should be something along the lines of : http://tinyurl.com/p3pd33c

It isn’t a very common build to see, but I think its going to get more popular in wvw cause they are nerfing all the other builds and this one is really strong. Also, he is indeed very good, plays it better than most. :P

It’s pretty much a lost cause to run full defensive traits and a rune set/sigils that focus only on one condition, especially one that is so easily cleansed.

Your friend was running mug more than likely so thats already a little different than the build posted.

Also, I dont mean to be rude, but his gameplay was pretty weak and predictable. There are also much stronger p/d thief setups that what he was using. Setups that would have made that duel (and every other) much easier despite mediocre game play.

yeah. hes right. i only saw Bleed almost the entire match if not the entire match. no chanceof winning against great players like that. atleast when TG is down.

also…guys…u cant call a weaponset spike, sustained, or condi on AA alone. :P

Dahkeus.8243:

Wait…why are people saying AA does more damage than PW? Unless you’re against a very mobile enemy that’s running out of the PW damage, PW should be doing much more dps than AA alone (especially with the right traits). You can go to a training dummy in the mists and do one time trial with AA alone, then do another where you spam PW to see the difference.

PW used to be about on par with AAs, but with the last two buffs that decreased the aftercast, it is a lot better.

he said AA does more when stability is up.

Tachii.3506:

@ Travalene, lyssa runes with basilisk venom is great not because it gives all boons with a relative short cooldown, it’s the fact that lyssa runes remove all conditions on you when casted. Lyssa runes also gives you 3 seconds of stability, which compounded with SR, makes CC a useless counter for SR.

For a P/D condi build though, thieves guild is probably the go-to elite skill since it does CC and deals damage while you can remain in stealth. Too bad P/D condi builds often rely solely on P/D without ever weapon switching, it gets unpredictable if they were running D/P too.

yes. that IS nice. but thats ALL that really changes from lyssa runes. the boons are useless really. you get a one time cleanse. but in the long term of a fight/battle i can show that otherrunes give more productivity. perhaps not condi cleans but more dmg or more dmg reduction or utitlity etc.

Mosharn.8357:

Travlane.5948:

caveman.5840:

not much dif than death blossom but moves u back . but death blossom can at least do damage

death blossom needs atleast 1/2 s evade.

death blossom is about 1.25 seconds from time you click to the time you can do another. and it only evades for .25 seconds. so as far as an evade…its prolly the worst thief has. i NEVER usethis as an evade. i actually pretend its not there. it cant be used strategically as an evade. its more like a bonus that u might sjust miss an incoming attack by pure chance.

Who uses deathblossom?

exactly! only somebody in PVE using it once to tag a few mobs with d/d bc he doesnt have SB equipped lol.

as always. emo responses.

i use facts, examples, and direct comparisons, even actual numbers u can just say thats something is blah blah bc you say so. explain why. give an example. say "when i use s/p i usually open with …bleh bleh….and when X happens i do blahblah etc. just explain. your points are moot otherwise.

i think the other player that said it was a burst build and PW is the bread/butter is correct but only under the assumption that pw is the best dmging skill and most used. basically the highest productivity plus most frequently used = bread and butter of a weaponset. i mean cant really argue that. unless ur using auto attack the entire time…in which case u should NEVER use sword and just daggers…… but dont be afraid to explain. people might not find u to be a *r*ll and somebody trying to contribute. thats all. nobody has anythign against what u say in a perosnal sense. just back it up with more than just emo opinions and “im smart ur duhhhhhhhh” or u just cheese it and get some more hours logged. thats not considered prime material for backing up somethign u claim. infact its quite the opposite.

Hype.8032:

I get a laugh at how perception doesn’t match reality. D/P was viewed as unviable because s/d overshadowed it but now that s/d is gone d/p is considered a top spec. Mind you it wasn’t hardly changed between patches.

d/p is a lot more fun than s/p but if you can’t handle more than a few buttons s/p will give you similar effectiveness… s/d still works fine but it’s not godmode anymore so people think it’s trash… funny huh?

god mode? really? p/d owns s/d in a fight. atleast mine did. s/d is good….but selectively good. absolutely owns some match ups…and some destroy it. far from god mode. but i WILL say…its amazing how much the set went from top 1 or 2 thief builds to unused…… just bc of IR nerf. just goes to show u howit was basically most of our defense. so sad anet. they ahve no idea what they are doing.

do you mean whats the purpose? or whats it left with doing now? 2 very different things :/

S/P runs around PW….period. no way around it. tactical strike is a really bad skill and should almost never be used as it costs you dmg, time and initiative that shouldnt be spent on lesser productivity. head shot is for a healing skill only (unless u like wasting init on a big attack u should be avoiding with an evade/blind). BPS is your defense with evades. IS and IR are obvious. so the dmg skills are auto attack and pistol whip. ONLY those 2 do dmg. atleast dmg that will be noticeable through a fight. so pistolwhip is your spike dmg and auto attack hits VERY hard yet very slow. i would never call this sustained dmg build yet hard to call it a spike build unless ur building around high immob times + PW. i doubt anyone takes a weaponset….looks at the auto attack and says…“yup thats a spike set”. they look at skills 2-5 to decide if it is a sustained dmg set or condi set or spike set. since s/p has no condi dmg its not condi. it has no sustained dmg other than auto attack which is like 70% spike 30 % sustained. hard to call it one thing. and PW, being the bread and butter skill as it is the best way with that set to kill something or someone, would fall under burst/spike dmg. it hits for high dmg (6-12k) and is a whir of extremely fast bladed attacks that evade. “whir” – “extremely fast” – “high dmg” – - – - – sounds like burst/spike.

SB is best sustained dmg. 1500-2400 auto attacks (build depending) and has poison, weakness, cripple, bleed, blind, gap closer, gap opener, evades, slow moving spike dmg with cluster, and aoe + multiple target attacks. Sb is well rounded although it needs 1200 range back and increased speed on auto.

i could catch a warrior…in the short distance (3k or under range) but why chase? if he ran to get out of combat…. thats a win in my book. have i escaped? yes! have i felt good about it? no. idk what everyone hates about that when thieves do it. ITS WHAT THEY DO! lol ….just means they didnt have what it takes to take u down. thats a GOOD thing. stop roaming solo in a 150+ enemy zone.

back to the warrior thing tho…… patience and dodges. need 2 stun breaks/ports to get you out of stuns/immobs. so evades+2 stunbreaks/ports.

blinding powder (offfensive and defensive)
shadowstep(offensive and defensive)
infil signet (same as above)
withdraw(gives u room and breaks immob plus best heal per second)
Thieves Guild (dont feel corny for using this, thieves come up short in every category except 1)

Fade.7658:

I’m a little surpised that human thieves don’t use Avatar of Melandru for certain circumstances. It’s very circumstantial, but does work nicely at times.

Need to get into a Shadow Refuge, and there’s someone there to knock you out? Drop the refuge, enter it, and as you do, pop Avatar. Instant stability. You can cancel the avatar at any time.

Have a 2 on 1 or more? Do the same thing, and upon entering, drop the entangle ability. It works like the ranger elite and won’t reveal you. After you’re done using it, either pop the heal spring or cancel the avatar, and proceed from there. (so many people don’t think to try to destroy the entangling vines)

daggerstorm does the same thing for 100% less cooldown :P. srry but no.

Dahkeus.8243:

Thieves Guild is a cheesy passive I WIN button. Sure, it’s not massively OP, but it’s very strong in 1 v 1 scenarios and requires no thought to use.

Daggerstorm is strong for reflecting projectiles. Yishis has some videos showing this using intelligently in duals vs some classes (like engineers).

Basilisk Venom as the single worst stun in the game? Not sure where you get that. The short cooldown makes this awesome for anyone using Lyssa runes, but even without, it’s a solid stun that can get a kill when you use it at the right time. There’s a reason this is pretty much the only elite used by high end tPvPers.

yes single worst stun in game. perhaps you read it wrong? maybeu thought i said single worst elite in game? lyssa runes are horrid too. its good for a block (aegis) but the 5 secs of boons gives u a few HP and a couple hundred dmg at best. nothing huge and in thelong run u lost alot more for taking the runes rather than a better set that gives throughout every hit etc in a battle. scholar runes will out produce lyssa in just the first hit alone. case in point. i suppose if ur running dubloons and LOTS of +boon time i would value your point. but by itself lyssa runes are bad. and basilisk venom is the worststun in game. many good thieves went over this . check out “BASILISK VENOM RANK” thread and ull see dozens others agree. i also made a list of EVERY other stun in game and shows how basilisk is the worst.

find me a stun thats:

1) longer than 45 sec cooldown
2) longer than 1 sec cast time
3) shorter than 1 sec combined with 1 and/or 2 listed above
4) Another elite stun as bad that takes up elite spot.
5) Gives opponents a several second telegraph saying im goin 2 stun you (buff bar)

good luck. prolly new to thief but no biggie.

Thieves guild, by the way, is not OP. heres some facts to keep it in perspect. and these just cant be argued.

1) phantasms are stronger
2) clones are stronger
3) thieves dont do much damage
4) TG true power lies in black powder shot (free 6 init) and scorp wire (1 free CC)
5) same HP as phants/summons. basically 2 hit kills with a normal mix build. 3 max.
6)running FULL ZERK the P/P user hits for 111hp each pistol attack so 888 total.
the d/d user hits for 550ish each hit.
7)unlike phants/clones they will NOT attack while invis. comes as a weakness.

for 180secs its quite fair. daggerstorm is a 1 trick pony (use in zergs). basilisk venom? worst stun in game. hands down. thieves guild? makes sense.

if u disagree thats fine. come with some facts. compare it. show me some stats. something. dont just say. bah BAH….BAHHHHHHHM. im right ur wrong naananaboo boo. differing opinions is ok…even healthy. but constructive ones with some meat to the comment is what we need to really discuss something.

thief zergs work great. theres a few things each has to run to do so.

Sig of malic
smoke screen
daggerstorm
shadowstep
blinding powder

few traits but too long to get intohere. pretty self explanatory. plus crit = health steal food plus health steal runes or rock dog runes. valk gear. etc etc.

runs over anyone. mass blinds. no projectiles work. port with steal/SS so melee dont F you. lots of heals.

the MOST IMPORTANT TIP…. NEVER EVER stomp finish. let the AOES do the work.

Niels.5396:

vincecontix.1264:

Tetsuyja.7805:

Mosharn.8357:

Its time this got what it deserves. No atk skill that has evade should be this spamable. It costs 4 init dodges and cripples. It is stupid how spamable.

No i did not lose to it. Its just a stupid thing to have. Every thief that fails hard with his/her back stab whips this out and goes 3333333. Its dumb and can be easily spammed. If you spec for a high init build this thing is stupid.

Remove the dodge and just leave it for the cripple.

hey =)

it’s really amazing. the second topic complaining about SB#3 during one day.
it’s really annoying to repeat myself to an issue that is …..simply …..not understandable.

The first topic i mentioned:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-nerf-3/first#post3470872

Prob same guy who created the other nerf sb thread now he on his alt accoutnt.

nope he is not me
And I still stand by revamping the skill to something like move back way faster, short daze and steal a boon on interrupt. maybe gain swiftness.
The evade is just silly and no fun.

PVE players will despise you. same with PVE. that AOE is killer. we have almost 0 chance to survive serious AOE. its our 1 trump card.

how do other classes survive aoe?

high regen
high HP
high toughness
high armor
blocks
invul
aegis
protection
whirl/leaps
HP life force(necro) and other class specific skills from others.

does thief have any of these to get out of large AOE? no. without Disabling shot how can a thief get out? Shadow step. shadow step is the answer for many questions… yet it can be the answer for only 1 question bci t has a min cooldown. disabling shot is our chance to survive. low dmg. low effect on it. fair init. fair cost.

its not a boon stripper…not anymore. ever since it went from 2 to 1 boons stolen…. now u just get like 4 secs of fury or something. nothinglong.

NinjaEd.3946:

Feline grace- returns 15% endurance on dodge

Vigor- 100% endurance recharge rate

Thief gets feline grace, and 15 second vigor IF steal makes it. Aside from stealth and dodges, they don’t have other ways of damage mitigation. Mug is the only burst heal and it’s tied to a 21.5-35 second cooldown which also will not work if it misses.

Guardian can maintain PERMA vigor, they wear heavy armor and their healing power scales rather nicely, and have several burst heals.

Now, dodging negates all damage and therefore is on par so this isn’t me saying thief can’t last in a fight. But guardian can dodge just as much with a lesser investment and still maintain their natural tank feel. Guardian share the lowest health pool with thief yet they can soak up, recover, and negate damage a lot better. Aegis, shield counters, regeneration, protection, vigor (can trait to heal on those dodges too). Unless its s/tpvp where guardian may mess with some zerker set, they aren’t easy to kill and can ruin a thief’s day if they think to hastily. SImple retaliation and a d/X thief will want nothing to do with that guardian unless they plan to get themselves killed.

Burn virtue is meh, unless you trait for it then it becomes something more enjoyable.

Regen virtue is a quick little heal if needed or a simple regen. Even at 84 health per second, that means something when you have a large amount of armor. It’s passive, so you can’t remove that regen only hinder its effectiveness with poison.

Aegis every 40 seconds (naturally dodge 1 hit at the start of a fight), and an active aegis. Say you see a warrior ready eviscerate, or kill shot and you can’t dodge. Pop that up, and forget about it. Even Mesmer’s illusionary leap-> swap immobilize can be negated, or a necro’s immobilize, it has endless uses for those skills that can be seen from a mile away.

Keep in mind, that’s the base of it. Guardian won’t burst you down and hop into stealth, but they can still kill ya, and they can survive just as good, just in a different manner. Thief isn’t in a horrible state atm but they aren’t sitting at the top of the pedestal in pve, wvw, or s/tpvp, not even close.

@Travlane, I think removing the break stun aspect and just making steal provide a passive init regen to an active SS would be more than enough. Initiative is universal, so if said thief isn’t interesting in a gap closer/stolen skill they can just hold up their weapon skills. I’d be all for making steal break stun since that’s something we generally lack but I think only 2 professions get that luxury (Mesmer invulnerable sorta works since you can negate all damage for those few seconds they’re CC, and engineer can choose slick shoes to get a 45 second stun breaker belt skill).

thats not a bad idea. something like 1 init every 6 secs? nothing too much. id prefer 2 per 10 secs but i dnot wanna get greedy. 1 per 6 is about as fair as i can get….considering other classes get f1 f2 f3 f4 etc and passives like 85HP per sec as one of them. more than fair.

Dahkeus.8243:

Thieves Guild is such a cheap elite for duels. =/

nonsense.

seriously. they dont do much dmg. scorp wire+blind is only reaosn theya re good.

besides. as cool as they actually are…..mesmer phants/clones are actually much more deadly. but those are allowed. and they actually attack while ur invis. not thieves guild….. oh well.

guess that kinda blows the OP ness/cheapness out of the water.

also what else should a thief use?

daggerstorm? elite that is for range only or zerg? nobody uses range only in duels.

basi venom? the single worst stun in game?

or thieves guild? 2 thieves for 20 secs with 1 utility each. Black powder shot + scorp

i think its pretty obvious. canthate on the skill. if u ahte on that skill do u hate on ambush trap? technically AT is 4x stronger. AT gives 6 per 180 secs, while TG gives 2 per 180 secs. whatevs tho. :P theheck with math

kind of a crappy p/d bleed build. :P reason u lasted so long….u dont get bleeds under 25% hp. if ud idnt have that it would have been a 30 sec fight prolly.

after the last several posts…i think the OP must feel prrrrrrrrrritty silly

caveman.5840:

not much dif than death blossom but moves u back . but death blossom can at least do damage

death blossom needs atleast 1/2 s evade.

death blossom is about 1.25 seconds from time you click to the time you can do another. and it only evades for .25 seconds. so as far as an evade…its prolly the worst thief has. i NEVER usethis as an evade. i actually pretend its not there. it cant be used strategically as an evade. its more like a bonus that u might sjust miss an incoming attack by pure chance.

Zero Day.2594:

Travlane.5948:

Zero Day.2594:

k… gonna lay out some ground rules here guys…
If you have a SB and:
Evade once, you’re fine, you’re just using SB…
Evade twice, people will start to be suspicious of you…
God forbid you evade three times, you’re perma evading….
Anything more then three times you’re surely using the perma evade spec…

this is obviously sarcasmright?

Yes… yes it is…
sad part is though… i have a feeling that that’s how it’s actually going to be…

puts “sarcasm” at end. seroiusly i had a hard tie telling. anet will think ur serious.

for the rest of you guys. dont use sarcasm in here. unless its so apparent…well just dont use it lol. anet wont get it and think people actually want more nerfs.

u guys also forget (the guys against 3 3 3 ) that thieves cant go in aoe. they are insta dead reagardless of build. using disablign shot 2x is just barely enough to get out of aoe. 3 times to create space. 3 -4 times and ur out of init for sure. then ur a sitting duck. its not like the skill does dmg thats so noticeable. the skill should and will stay as is. if u dont understand why then u dont understand thief or the game.

Zero Day.2594:

k… gonna lay out some ground rules here guys…
If you have a SB and:
Evade once, you’re fine, you’re just using SB…
Evade twice, people will start to be suspicious of you…
God forbid you evade three times, you’re perma evading….
Anything more then three times you’re surely using the perma evade spec…

this is obviously sarcasmright?

Mosharn.8357:

Travlane.5948:

i gotta say. bow does many things bot nothign really well.

900 range. pffft
cluster bomb. decent dmg …. but SLOOOOOOW
poison gass 4s of poison…. eh nice and usefull but nothing wow
trick shot. slow cast slow aftercast. slow flight. not heat seeking. low dmg/no effects
Infil arrow- used only as a get away ….even tho HS is much better.
disabling shot- cripple for a few secs + evade. the one shining thing about this weapon.

disabling shot is what really makes the short bow work. u will never see a thief use shortbow to kill somebody. it just doesnt happen. its usually brought out bc we are weak against bosses and zergs so we spread poison and bleeds.

doesnt deserve a nerf bc we can evade 4x in a row.

warriors get invuln , blocks and feel no pain etc….. i dont see the difference when we have to spam all our initiative for the same effect.

to keep you guys in check. imagine if warrior had to use 6 weapon attacks like 2 3 4 5 on weapon set 1 and skill 2 on weaponset 2 all for 3.5 seconds of evade/invuln.

would that be OP? no of course not. but people dont think like that. oh well. simple simple simple.

You can perma evade if you spec for it just like you can outheal and out live on warrior IF YOU SPEC FOR IT. A zerker war or a hybird wont live long even if they do pop endure pain and stuff. Where as a thief can blind on stealth by simply putting 10 points into shadowarts and still do massive back stabs AND be able to chain evade with SB/dodges.

Everytime something sensible on the forums is posted its shot down by forum warriors. Do you people even play the game? When cry babies make post after post on one thing and it gets nerfed and no one says anything to them. Well i guess there is no point in using the game forums as they dont seem to be working as intended.

im not a warrior. im a thief. i hate warrior. not bc of whatthey do. just because its not my style.

my point is valid. until you said another class giving up 5 attack skills to be put on coolodown to evade for 3.5 secs is OVERPOWERED. let me know ill have the conversation then.

i gotta say. bow does many things bot nothign really well.

900 range. pffft
cluster bomb. decent dmg …. but SLOOOOOOW
poison gass 4s of poison…. eh nice and usefull but nothing wow
trick shot. slow cast slow aftercast. slow flight. not heat seeking. low dmg/no effects
Infil arrow- used only as a get away ….even tho HS is much better.
disabling shot- cripple for a few secs + evade. the one shining thing about this weapon.

disabling shot is what really makes the short bow work. u will never see a thief use shortbow to kill somebody. it just doesnt happen. its usually brought out bc we are weak against bosses and zergs so we spread poison and bleeds.

doesnt deserve a nerf bc we can evade 4x in a row.

warriors get invuln , blocks and feel no pain etc….. i dont see the difference when we have to spam all our initiative for the same effect.

to keep you guys in check. imagine if warrior had to use 6 weapon attacks like 2 3 4 5 on weapon set 1 and skill 2 on weaponset 2 all for 3.5 seconds of evade/invuln.

would that be OP? no of course not. but people dont think like that. oh well. simple simple simple.

not gonna use it til evade is atleast 1/2 sec

yeah thief is not in a good place. period. there is not skilled/experience/intelligent player that would place even 1 thief in a 100v100 match. not 1. sad. dungeons? very rare to use a thief and when they are actually wanted/used its for shadow refuge and stealthing to skip trash mobs. tpvp? “plz dont bring thief ty” spvp? same. WVW- eh if ur a thief go cap a camp or something or reroll to join zerg and be effective.

steal is just like the above comments. its just underwhelming compare to other classes. we come up short in every area including dmg. yes we have tied for highest burst dmg. but theres 2 problems with that…. the other classes are REALLY close … i mean not enough to say “we need a thief for dmg” and also that they can (and warrior which is tied for first) can do it while not worrying about their HP depleting in 2-3 seconds in a 1v1 and under 1 sec in a zerg regardless of armor.

steal needs to do 3k dmg. 1200 just isnt really gonna be enough to match up with virtues or necro HP etc etc and so on. heck i’d even rather have a pet. steal isnt even on par with infiltrators signet. lets look.

Steal 35s CD
900 Range (4sec CD if 901+ range)
SS to target
steal 1 item that may hurt or help your situation.

Infiltrators signet 30s CD
900 range (still steps toward target regardless if within range)
SS to target
break stun
Gain 1 init every 10 sec

cmon really? can we just have infiltrators signet as our steal? plz? pffft. steal is nothing but a gap closer unless u poor lots of traitpoints into it

Amir.1570:

Jumper.9482:

A lot of people seem to be against cutting the S/D Thief’s endurance gains by 50%…
Or is it maybe the cutting of Trickery’s steal reacharge gains by 40%?

Or maybe its the MASSIVE UNREASONABLE 10% BUFF that is being proposed for a massively underpowered and underused weapon set (D/D).

Yeah, that must be it.

It was mostly because you defended S/D when it was brain-dead trash (Infinite stun break on top of million dodges, C’mon you can’t have everything) when Caed disagreed and said otherwise and even called it an easy mode build when you said it took skill.

TL;DR You defended cheese, Caed disapproved it. That definitely hurt your reputation.

but its needs SOME kind of reliable defensive util. IR as is….is useless. srry. unless im KD/STunned etc im not using it unless im switching enemies in PVE. FS LS evade is too short and i wont use it as a reaction defense.

Jumper.9482:

A bit late for x-mas, sorry.
Onto the fake patchnote bandwagon we go!

(New!) Vote for your favorites.
http://strawpoll.me/978841

This will only include my opinions over thousands of hours and multiple tournaments over the course of playing Thief competitively. I won’t be attempting to analyze underlying problems of other classes but instead more deeply analyze Thief as only I and few others can.
I’ve given this a ton of thought over the past few days, about 6 hours writing up the first draft (the original document was ~5x as long including in-depth analysis but I thought ‘meh, tl;dr.’). But if this even sparks one idea for change for some red out there, it’ll be worth it.

I present; Jump.doc.
http://pastebin.com/dvMYb77F

Goals: Massively raise the skill floor to be efficient with S/D builds along with nerfs aimed at endurance regen, tone down Trickery builds, and greatly promote build diversity across multiple weapon skills, utilities, and traits as well as tackling “1-button” playstyles present in sets like S/x and P/P increasing depth. And to also rework the Shadow Arts traitline discouraging camping stealth for extreme periods of time making it more of an attractive choice in PvP.

Thief

SOM should be 75%. 90% of our skills do 1-2 dmg :P. well 90% of our attacks.
thieves guild good change.
SR …eh i can go with that.
daggerstorm….. pfft horrible idea i think . not chanign much other than making yourself less susceptableto dmg for 2 secs.

rest is garbage in my opinion. all nerfs ? wow. didnt know thief was sooooo good in pvp. cant cap. cant defend. cant do 5v5 or higher….without hurting time by playing hide/outside of main fray. see so few thieves in spvp/tpvp/pve. highest place i see thieves is wvw. its the only place you can have any real chance at some 1v1s or 2v2s etc. dont think 85% of these ideas are even entertainable.

Traps? no good without them being a circle and trip/poison ones being pulsing.

scorp wire at 45 secs….with no real dmg? that woudl be the 2nd worst stun behind basilisk venom in teh entire game. would have to be 30s with what you posted.

infil return…. umm still not going to b a viable set unless it was as before nerf. no defense on this set. period. cant run it. have to run high dmg for lack of CC and condi. just wont work. thief is too fragile.

overall:

i noticed u focused on tit for tat trash. its all nonsense in the sense you are trying to fix a falling skyscraper by starting with the top floor. the problem is in the base. like how traps work. shouldbe 250 radius or something. base dmg should be a little higher so we dont have to spec. our HP should be in the medium range to make up for the total lack of responsive skills like block/invul etc and having no defensive boons like protection/aegis etc. steal is still the worst F mechanic in game. its a gap closer….nothing else has truly ever been a common “wow glad i had stole that skill….just won me a fight”. thief evade (evades on skills anyway) are a joke too. 1/4 sec evade on 1.25 sec skill = 1 sec of ’PLZ HURT ME NOW BC I CANT STOP YOU"…..

srry just seems like another dream post from a …T R * * *.

i know ur a decent player which is why im wondering what the heck this trash is all about. like u did a 180 or something.

you could higher thieves attack and lower their defense and they would still get nerfed even tho that would make them unviable in any sort of team format. QQ ftw

i dont think one thing they stated about thieves on the beneficial side has come true yet.

steal is good with an ASTERISK (*) and the asterisk being if you poor 40+ trait points into making it so. even with those 40 points…… its still arguably on par with guardians. steal needs to be on par without buffs to other classes. bc every class can buff the heck out of their f mechanics…. so you cant count those trait buffs. u have to look at the base effect. and as a thief…. id take the effects of any other class over ours. our items just are not worth using. most of the time they just get in the way. sure whirl can be decent once in a while but it also say" quick hit me i can stop you". basically they all are quite … circumstantial at best where other classes are useful no matter the situation.

KeyOrion.9506:

I don’t run thief that often. Although playing Guildwars 1 for nearly seven years, and Guildwars 2 since beta I can tell you one thing.

The more overused a specific combo becomes, the greater increase of a possible nerf to that combo.

I’m talking to every thief on every server now. You need to come up with some new combo’s or Anet is going to take one big long hard look at what the majority of players are running. You want a nerf, your going to get one, if you can’t come up with other possible uses for the thief.

If all everyone is doing is asking how to perma-stealth, you think anet is gonna lay back on that and let it go? You already shot yourself in the foot for your own profession. You have something good that doesn’t deal with stealth? Post it. All I’m reading in every single post is Stealth this and stealth that. And if that’s all a thief is good for, then your good for nothing else.

this is actually 100% true. its not anet thats ….ignorant….its the players. they whine and QQ because they dont know how to play a pvp game intuitively and with quick reaction. i mean ignorant as a compliment not in a degrading way. if ur not ignorant than its just stupidity. so its a compliment…honestly. it justmeans you dontk now better or are uniformed. saying this so anet forum mods dont erase my comment bc they dont know the definition. sigh. anyway yeahthis is true bc every patch that is skill “adjusted” we get hammered hard. and i mean HARD. not 1 skills balancing patch passes without that happening. so why not have anet just do them all at once so we can figure out a build we like and stay with it so they dont keep changing it and annoying us….. Weeeeeeeeeeellllllllll…. this is bc even anet doesnt know. its not about what is OP or whatever….its all about what the average player can handle or defend against. the average player cant react quick enough to play against a GOOD thief so many of his builds are nerfed. same with warrior. the hammer build was SOOOO OP…but u didnt hear us thieves complain bc we would react and get out of the situation. if we didnt then 2 secs = death. no other classes dies as easily and fast as thieves regardless of build yet u dont hear 98% of these QQing. well we do about not being able to hang in there in group play but thats bc our defense is waaaaaaaaay too low. but i mean we dont complain about others skills being OP.

the OP hit the nail on the head. thats why 2-3 weeks before balancing patches i make sure i quit using the weapons / builds in the current flavor of the month builds. that way im already adjusted at balance day. pretty sick huh? i have to quit a build or playstyle weeks before a patch bc i know its going to be ruined due to lack of skill on others end. oh well thats the economy of a MMORPG. revenue controls decisions. happy players spend money. since thief is prolly about 5% of players online at one time….not like they have alot to worry about. yes 5%. go to LA any world event or dungeons or near crafters or spvp. 1/20 ish are theives. maybe 1/18 somteims maybe 1/25 maybe 1/16. but averages out to about 5-7% from what i see. laterall

didnt watch yet but i hear its d/p vs s/d? s/d is ok to play against d/p bc thers no stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns ….. no long dazes. the nerf on IR doesnt come into play.

cant check video yet but is ther e more than just d/p vs s/d?

its a bug… sometimes it happesn 3x in a row and usually at dungeon bosses and in aoe in pvp. also it sometimes happens reallllly slow. like u press 3 and .75 secs later it acts. hate it.

The Game Slayer.7632:

You guys make the thief community look bad.

The instant you see the word ‘nerf’ you stop reading and rage.

Maybe if you took a minute to read my post we COULD have a constructive conversation.

Most of you lack reading comprehension and go ape kitten when you see the word nerf.

Lol.

when we should be talking buf buff buff forthe past 8 months…yes it is annoying. nothing should been nerfed since feb/march

Zelulose.8695:

To the OP, If you want steal can daze, poison, blind, stealth, steal boons, grant vigor, deal damage, and heal you on a 21 second CD.

for 40 trait poitns to do so….and still isnt as good as half of guardian mechanics fully loaded.

anet? are you there? are you reading this anet? please can understand the plight of thieves now? STOP NERFING US!

The Game Slayer.7632:

Travlane.5948:

so about 10 other skills are in teh same boat. warriors can 1 shot an almost 6 second immob. thats more than devourer by alot. if u add the +30% from stats on time plus another 20% in weapons andanother 40% from food thats about 11 seconds of immob. learn the game before you openyour mouth kiddo. making your self look silly and just a L2P player.

@ OP

Get better? I need to learn to play? I look silly? Maybe when you learn to read… lol.

if u think devourer venom is OP. then u are just asking for the game to be dumbed down. its not OP at all. seriously. never heard a complain in 13-14 months ssooo…. ur a first.

nerf venomshare a LITTLE>…and buff venoms so they are useable on their own.

there is nothing wrong with devourer venom. if u get 6-9s of immob for a kitten cooldown…u are using ALOT of traitpoints, special weapons, and etc etc to do so and sacrificing lots of other things on defensive side. even so …. couple dodges and most the venoms are missed and gone from the attacker…..and if they do hit its only once per 45 seconds. most fights end in 20secs. warriors have theirs on super short cooldowns.

basically what the OP is saying is…..nerf somethign that hasnt been a problem for the last 12 months. now that everything else is nerfed lets keep going down the line to the next thing. you can bring stun breaks on your build….then fight a player playing full condi. you can bring lots of condi removal and then find a player coming at u with lots of stuns/KDs. thats life. every build/setup has its strenghts and weaknesses . deal with it. thief has some of the worst immobs in game. devourer venom is a risk and super long cd which hurts defense by taking it.