Guild Wars 2

I don’t see why any veteran WvW player would oppose changes to base pips, giving new players a little more incentive to continue with the game mode and hopefully help revitalize it. Our veteran bonuses wouldn’t change, we’d still get rewards faster than the newbies.

If these “veteran” players really don’t care about the rewards like they claim not to, then I don’t see why they’re even posting in this thread to begin with. It seems like they do actually care about rewards, but by golly I don’t think they’ll admit that. Would they?

A question to all WvW players opposing changes to base pips to make it easier on the newcomers: Do you care about WvW rewards more than the WvW game mode?

zinkz.7045:

What? Are you new from PvE? Do you really need it explained to you why roaming on say a zerk thief wasn’t really high risk?

In terms of disengage? Sure, if you didn’t need to use your shadowstep for a stunbreak or condi cleanse.

In terms of actual fights and battle presence? Nothing had (or has currently) a higher risk than a zerk thief. Well, maybe zerk staff ele.

I’m not even going to bother quoting that guy, since his post was a mess. But seriously.

Does anyone remember opening the Gates of Ahn’Qiraj in World of Warcraft? The OP seems to think an event like that should come back because he didn’t get to play it because he didn’t have the game when that event was taking place.

Relax, OP, since I already can tell you’re not going to understand that this is just an analogy, I’m going to have to tell you ahead of time – this is just an analogy to show how ridiculous your request is.

If you see the debuff, it will do damage unless they pop an invuln. It won’t show if your target stealths before the damage procs.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

PabbyGaul.9682:

It encourages the trash.

Judging from the responses of “certain” people, the trash is already in WvW…

Are you implying Im trash because I could have an aneurism? I think thats discrimination.

Hmm? You’re still here? I said certain people. Though if you think yourself as such, I can’t stop you.

PabbyGaul.9682:

It encourages the trash.

Judging from the responses of “certain” people, the trash is already in WvW…

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Deihnyx.6318:

PabbyGaul.9682:

The difference in rewards and time it takes dor newbies vs vets to gain them is INTENDED. Its not a mistake. It was designed that way knowing how long it will take. Working as intended.

Working as intended doesn’t always mean working best, as it was shown many, many times with anet reworking older systems, reworking pvp pips, reworking pve traits, etc. This is hardly an argument in favor or against the current system, it’s just stating what the current system is right now.
For example, in game pretty much everyone agrees that the outnumbered pip is too much. If we never discuss anything, then let’s just admit everything is perfect and be done with it.

I dunno, if I was a vet I would spend less time trying to fight my right to “play less” my main mode and instead ask bonus that benefits me directly rather

Lol. Your arguement is that it takes to long to max out pips per week. If yer low rank you werent meant to. So your arguement is like complaining “I cant solo Raid. Anet pls nerf” You arent intended to solo raid, just like low ranks arent intended to max pip track every week. It doesnt mean you cant try…

Your comparison to difficulty of raiding is irrelevant and asinine.

Its not that lower ranks are not intended to max out every week, that would be a ridiculous design. A more accurate depiction would be: “It is not intended for lower ranks to easily max out every week.” Which I agree with, low ranks should not have it easy. However, in its current state, it is not only difficult, but almost impossible for some people. If you read my reply a few posts up, there is potential for a low-rank to have to spend 8.5 hours to only just complete wood tier. And its not like it would take another 8.5 to complete bronze- no, it would take 10 more hours. And an additional 14 hours for silver, etc. That’s an awful lot of time for such little return.

The bonuses vets get is pretty fair, that’s the general consensus now. The current design is working as indented, yes. But that’s what people are upset about, and that’s how things get changed. The base pip system is silly, unreasonable, and probably wasn’t tested properly. If people don’t voice their concerns, it won’t ever become reasonable.

Think of it this way – Settlers Amulet/Turret Engineers in PvP were working as intended. It was incredibly OP, but it was absolutely working as the developers intended it to. The customers voiced their opinions, ANET looked into it, and nerfed that crap into the ground. If nobody said anything, PvP would still be full of bunker turret engineers dominating points 1v3.

The idea was not to have new ranks stay low ranks. If they want more pips they need to rank up. New ranks shouldnt be pip farming and their attempts to do so are being thwarted. Most have already left. The people that stayed behind are either waiting for pip nerf or actually enjoy game mode. Im gold rank, still havent finished pip track once and I play ~ 10~20hrs a week. Maxing out the track was not intended…Its possible but not easy. I think its actually a great system. It rewards ppl who are vets and rewards non vets and each to yheir own degree. The skirnish tickets are a marathon not a sprint. The longer someone does wvw stuff the more ranks they get the more pips they earn and thus the more valuable their time becomes.

Ppl make 2 kittenumprions. 1. low ranks will never increase to the next pip tier rank. It will take you a few months but you will reach 1 extra pips…then silver for 2…ext. the system is intended to discourage grinding because grinding isnt fun and reward dedication or wvw rank. Its an extra reward track that gives wvw rank some usefulness beyond 1300.

Assumption 2. Your suppose to max out your skirmish tickets every week. No. Just no. Any calculations about how absurd the time required for low ranks is a useless arguement. Anet built it on average play. Bronze using average playtime = Bronze chest. Low rank = wood chest. A low rank is intended to finish wood chest over a week..if they do more…great. The maxxing thhing comes from a desire to have. Practice budhism….

You are hopeless and have a despicable mindset regarding things other people can or can’t have. Please tell me how it would affect you if newer players were able to complete diamond chest in less than 60 hours? Because from your responses it seems as though it would absolutely trigger your increasingly apparent inferiority complex.

I might have an aneurism….

I asked you a question, perhaps you didn’t read it, I don’t know what I expected.

Here it is again: “Please tell me how it would affect you if newer players were able to complete diamond chest in less than 60 hours?”

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Deihnyx.6318:

PabbyGaul.9682:

The difference in rewards and time it takes dor newbies vs vets to gain them is INTENDED. Its not a mistake. It was designed that way knowing how long it will take. Working as intended.

Working as intended doesn’t always mean working best, as it was shown many, many times with anet reworking older systems, reworking pvp pips, reworking pve traits, etc. This is hardly an argument in favor or against the current system, it’s just stating what the current system is right now.
For example, in game pretty much everyone agrees that the outnumbered pip is too much. If we never discuss anything, then let’s just admit everything is perfect and be done with it.

I dunno, if I was a vet I would spend less time trying to fight my right to “play less” my main mode and instead ask bonus that benefits me directly rather

Lol. Your arguement is that it takes to long to max out pips per week. If yer low rank you werent meant to. So your arguement is like complaining “I cant solo Raid. Anet pls nerf” You arent intended to solo raid, just like low ranks arent intended to max pip track every week. It doesnt mean you cant try…

Your comparison to difficulty of raiding is irrelevant and asinine.

Its not that lower ranks are not intended to max out every week, that would be a ridiculous design. A more accurate depiction would be: “It is not intended for lower ranks to easily max out every week.” Which I agree with, low ranks should not have it easy. However, in its current state, it is not only difficult, but almost impossible for some people. If you read my reply a few posts up, there is potential for a low-rank to have to spend 8.5 hours to only just complete wood tier. And its not like it would take another 8.5 to complete bronze- no, it would take 10 more hours. And an additional 14 hours for silver, etc. That’s an awful lot of time for such little return.

The bonuses vets get is pretty fair, that’s the general consensus now. The current design is working as indented, yes. But that’s what people are upset about, and that’s how things get changed. The base pip system is silly, unreasonable, and probably wasn’t tested properly. If people don’t voice their concerns, it won’t ever become reasonable.

Think of it this way – Settlers Amulet/Turret Engineers in PvP were working as intended. It was incredibly OP, but it was absolutely working as the developers intended it to. The customers voiced their opinions, ANET looked into it, and nerfed that crap into the ground. If nobody said anything, PvP would still be full of bunker turret engineers dominating points 1v3.

The idea was not to have new ranks stay low ranks. If they want more pips they need to rank up. New ranks shouldnt be pip farming and their attempts to do so are being thwarted. Most have already left. The people that stayed behind are either waiting for pip nerf or actually enjoy game mode. Im gold rank, still havent finished pip track once and I play ~ 10~20hrs a week. Maxing out the track was not intended…Its possible but not easy. I think its actually a great system. It rewards ppl who are vets and rewards non vets and each to yheir own degree. The skirnish tickets are a marathon not a sprint. The longer someone does wvw stuff the more ranks they get the more pips they earn and thus the more valuable their time becomes.

Ppl make 2 kittenumprions. 1. low ranks will never increase to the next pip tier rank. It will take you a few months but you will reach 1 extra pips…then silver for 2…ext. the system is intended to discourage grinding because grinding isnt fun and reward dedication or wvw rank. Its an extra reward track that gives wvw rank some usefulness beyond 1300.

Assumption 2. Your suppose to max out your skirmish tickets every week. No. Just no. Any calculations about how absurd the time required for low ranks is a useless arguement. Anet built it on average play. Bronze using average playtime = Bronze chest. Low rank = wood chest. A low rank is intended to finish wood chest over a week..if they do more…great. The maxxing thhing comes from a desire to have. Practice budhism….

You are hopeless and have a despicable mindset regarding things other people can or can’t have. Please tell me how it would affect you if newer players were able to complete diamond chest in less than 60 hours? Because from your responses it seems as though it would absolutely trigger your increasingly apparent inferiority complex.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Ender.5273:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Dis·crim·i·na·tion – the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

Nothing about rewarding those who have demonstrated dedication and commitment to the game mode is unjust or prejudicial to new players, if anything it’s incentive for new players to keep at it.

I feel the attack on the value of my high rank rewards are being unjustly perpetrated by people prejuduced against wvw. Do I get to classify all these attempts to devalue my rewards as discrimination against me because I have a high wvw rank?

Even the OP edited his post to say that the bonuses aren’t really the problem, nobody is attacking our high rank rewards, holy crap please leave, you are not contributing anything, nor are you actually reading and understanding the posts you are replying to.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Deihnyx.6318:

PabbyGaul.9682:

The difference in rewards and time it takes dor newbies vs vets to gain them is INTENDED. Its not a mistake. It was designed that way knowing how long it will take. Working as intended.

Working as intended doesn’t always mean working best, as it was shown many, many times with anet reworking older systems, reworking pvp pips, reworking pve traits, etc. This is hardly an argument in favor or against the current system, it’s just stating what the current system is right now.
For example, in game pretty much everyone agrees that the outnumbered pip is too much. If we never discuss anything, then let’s just admit everything is perfect and be done with it.

I dunno, if I was a vet I would spend less time trying to fight my right to “play less” my main mode and instead ask bonus that benefits me directly rather

Lol. Your arguement is that it takes to long to max out pips per week. If yer low rank you werent meant to. So your arguement is like complaining “I cant solo Raid. Anet pls nerf” You arent intended to solo raid, just like low ranks arent intended to max pip track every week. It doesnt mean you cant try…

Your comparison to difficulty of raiding is irrelevant and asinine.

Its not that lower ranks are not intended to max out every week, that would be a ridiculous design. A more accurate depiction would be: “It is not intended for lower ranks to easily max out every week.” Which I agree with, low ranks should not have it easy. However, in its current state, it is not only difficult, but almost impossible for some people. If you read my reply a few posts up, there is potential for a low-rank to have to spend 8.5 hours to only just complete wood tier. And its not like it would take another 8.5 to complete bronze- no, it would take 10 more hours. And an additional 14 hours for silver, etc. That’s an awful lot of time for such little return.

The bonuses vets get is pretty fair, that’s the general consensus now. The current design is working as indented, yes. But that’s what people are upset about, and that’s how things get changed. The base pip system is silly, unreasonable, and probably wasn’t tested properly. If people don’t voice their concerns, it won’t ever become reasonable.

Think of it this way – Settlers Amulet/Turret Engineers in PvP were working as intended. It was incredibly OP, but it was absolutely working as the developers intended it to. The customers voiced their opinions, ANET looked into it, and nerfed that crap into the ground. If nobody said anything, PvP would still be full of bunker turret engineers dominating points 1v3.

ThunderPanda.1872:

You are getting it all wrong. The definition of fair is – anything that is only beneficial to myself that puts myself at an advantage over every other people.

fair1
fer/Submit
adjective
1.
in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate.
“the group has achieved fair and equal representation for all its members”
synonyms: just, equitable, honest, upright, honorable, trustworthy; More
2.
(of hair or complexion) light; blond.
synonyms: blond/blonde, yellowish, golden, flaxen, light, light brown, ash blond More
adverb
1.
without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage.

Dukotje.4382:

Fifth.8169:

A persons WVW rank should not be used for pip acquisition. The rewarding of pips should be fair and equally rewarding to all participants.

+1 Bronze WvW Rank (150-619)
+2 Silver WvW Rank (620-1394)
+3 Gold WvW Rank (1395-2544)
+4 Platinum WvW Rank (2545-4094)
+5 Mithril WvW Rank (4095-6444)
+6 Diamond WvW Rank (6445-9999)
+7 Max WvW Rank (10000)

It is immoral and discriminates against new players.

it might be "discriminating " to new players, and yet they decided to reward the veterans of wvw by handing them more pips. just stop the QQ and concider the fact that the game has been out for 5 years, you’ve had 5 years to play WvW and now they decided to finally reward the players participating all you do is complain and QQ about the fact that it might be more rewarding for playing longer then you pve’rs that just want to get loot and gtfo… just stop complaining and go back to farm pve if you think its that unfair.

I am a veteran WvW player. And base pip gain is unfair. Get off your high horse and take a look at the bigger picture here. Its OK to defend the bonuses that vets get. Its not OK to defend the base pip gain, where someone on a losing server can potentially only get 1 pip (2 with loyalty) per 5 minutes. That is almost 8.5 hours to complete just WOOD chest.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Who?

/15 chars

ker-shrug

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

…60 of them were two nights ago when I decided to join a wvw guild and run a proper wvw build AND POP ALL THE FREAKING EXP BOOSTERS. 60 levels in ~4 hours.

Thats 1,250 WvW XP per minute.

You did not gain 60 ranks in 4hours. Please don’t lie so blatantly in the future, it greatly weakens your argument.

Strider Pj.2193:

Too many are equating uneven/unlevel to unfair. The rewards are not level. Winning servers get more, population starved maps get more, increased ranks get more, commander tags get more.

It’s not meant to be even NOR level. But it IS fair.

The bonuses are fair. Veteran bonuses, commander bonus, …uhh maybe not outnumbered bonus, that could be toned down a little.

But the base pips are what this thread is now about (if you can sift through the replies against/for the bonus pips due to rank), which is still unreasonable.

XenesisII.1540:

Luci.7018:

Isnt Guild Halls the area where ppl can do 20v20 GvG (or whatever numbers) , and if that fanbased event have enought of viewers they can official support it?

Have ppl tried since the x-pack was realeased ?

Cant be too dificult for 10 teams (x20 members) to c horde materials into that single Guild Hall and fully upgrade it to tier 3 in a single week ?

The guild hall arena isn’t big enough, Anet had been told this multiple times even in beta that it wasn’t big enough, to the point that they said they would work on a bigger arena later which has never happened.

They needed to just design a mega server zone that has a huge colosseum. Let that be the wvw lobby, like heart of the mist which is under megaserver and just got it’s own free for all arena. I say needed, because there isn’t that many gvg guilds left at this point.

Something something something Obsidian Sanctum Arena.

But as I said earlier, “GvG” guilds would rather be taking up spots in the borderlands, where they can steamroll less organized pug zergs to make their epeins wiggle, than to use resources already available to them to have fair zerg battles with other guilds.

Deihnyx.6318:

if they want to get the legendary within similar time than the other two backpacks.

I asked earlier in the thread and am still curious as to why you think this should be used as a comparison. The only connection these items have is that they are legendary back items. I think this would be a reasonable comparison if the game modes were all similar, but they are not.

Deihnyx.6318:

Also with raids, we knew very early on what would be the requirements: 150 LI for the legendary armor. If you wanted the armor at release date, you knew exactly what you had to do and could plan accordingly.

This is almost exactly the same argument I have been using all thread (but trying to explain why veterans do indeed deserve their bonuses), only I put the logic into an emotional scenario.

Once they added shiny rewards to PvP, it was clear that they were going to add something shiny to WvW. If you wanted whatever was going to be released at in WvW, you should have planned accordingly. Yes, I know, you did not know exactly what you would need or have to do…but actually playing the game mode is a logical start.

Again, I want to make it clear that I think the base pips should be increased to make it easier on newer players. My responses are all geared towards the people who are complaining that the more experienced veterans are gaining bonuses over the newer players.

GvG = Zerg v. Zerg.

And since most pug zergs have a majority on the server teamspeak anyway, there’s pretty much no difference other than optimized builds/gear.

And half the time the guilds prefer to fight the pug zergs rather than other guilds. Pathetic.

Kovu.7560:

Reward pips for actively accomplishing things in wvw instead of passive things like wvw rank or the outnumbered buff. Moreover, so long as pips continue to be tied to the world’s most lenient participation mechanic, AFKHeroes taking up que spots will continue to reign.

Escort a dolyak? Get a pip.
Take a camp? Get a pip.
Kill at least 1 opposing player in the span of a 5min skirmish? Get a pip.
Take a tower? Get two pips.
Take a keep? Get three pips.
Take a T3 keep? Get seven pips.
Defend objectives? Get pips.

~ Kovu

This sounds good on paper, but would ultimately lead to k-trains completely avoiding potentially good fights. For a large portion of players that now queue up the mode, it would turn it into another PvE map game of “Follow the Dorito.”

Sure there’s k-trains now, but not nearly as much as they could become. And unfortunately, ANET doesn’t seem to like rewarding defending, since successfully defending an objective doesn’t even award participation.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Wvwers seem very entitled all I keep reading is that they deserve this. Tell me then if we go into raids together to get legendary armor, do I get it 4xs faster then you? If not then why not? I have thousands of hours more in that game mode then you do.

How would you feel if all the LI’s you got before legendary armor came out…suddenly disappeared when the update brought legendary armor? And then with all those thousands of hours in raiding, someone brand new with no xp was promised a spot in your established group, barely assists in the kills, or even just dies/afks upon engaging, then got the same LI’s as you?

Deihnyx.6318:

Please again, explain how this reasoning is flawed.

It all depends on your personal view of time-commitment to reward ratio.

Why do you believe Warbringer should be obtained in a similar timeframe of the other legendary backpacks? I personally think that the time it would take to obtain the other legendary backpacks is irrelevant. The game modes are different for a reason, the rewards, and how you work towards the rewards are also going to be different. I enjoy the long-term goals, as do many other WvW mains.

Sure, taking 40 hours to reach the max may be excessive, but that is an issue with base pips, not the bonuses that others may get. I truly believe that to reach maximum rewards for the week, it should take the average or newer player about 20 hours. It’s a maximum, a reward for the commitment.

I hit the cap the very first week, because I was excited and set aside time to play. Silver ranked, so +2 pips per tick over a newbie. I barely passed silver chest last week playing about an hour a day average, and I probably won’t max out this week, either. And that is A-OK with me, because I know that the max reward is something to reach for, not something to be given freely. (Again, base pips reward is an issue, and I believe should be boosted so newer players can reach the max with 20 hours or so.)

I’d like to hear people explain why they think completing diamond chest should be easily obtainable in a casual timeframe.

The overtime mechanic. I get it, you don’t want someone to stay stealthed and troll other players, taking up their time. But there has to be a better way than deleting whole traitlines during that timeframe…

Bezerker.2379:

axe/shield + greatsword is still acceptably performing in wvw roaming. Bit more counterable, but still viable.

Yup, still using the same build, and it is still performing well in the small scale/solo scene.

You can try to pull the ol’ nike Warrior routine. But unfortunately the glory days of that are far gone. Can still outrun a large portion of players and go from objective to objective and gain some participation if that’s your goal.

Otherwise, your best bet is probably the meta roaming x/shield/GS build. If you think a Guardian is power based, rather than burn based, try swapping your berserker stance for SoM instead. They usually don’t respond well when still getting pressured while their F3 is up.

For thieves, the best thing you can do is make them use skills and initiative to chase you, then turn and engage on them while they think you are still running. (and they are low on initiative/a skill or 2 on cooldown perhaps) If you think they are going to shadow shot to catch you, pop berserker stance to avoid the blind, and go for a headbutt or shield bash right after they shoot. Its usually downhill for the thief from there, especially if they already had to use shadowstep to chase you.

I believe the perceived problem with S/D in WvW is that it is completely shut down by another thief wielding D/P. That fight is so one-sided that a D/P thief could win even if it was missing 2 traitlines… Thieves probably fight other thieves more than any other profession in WvW, so its no wonder they think S/D is weak.

Against other professions, it is very viable, and super fun to play! It probably still needs some minor tweaks, but it is not nearly as weak as some make it out to be.

You’re only handicapping yourself if you think that it is a necessity to finish it. The completionists will max tickets every week, regardless. And due to their dedicated time spent doing so, they will obtain their rewards faster. The casual players will finish chests casually, and casually obtain their rewards at a casual pace, since they are the ones choosing to only play a few hours here and there. This is all incredibly fair.

Social life/Long job hours/outside recreation, etc? – This is the weakest argument out here, and I’d rather not see it again in threads like this. No one is forcing anyone to play this video game, and if you feel as though it is encroaching on another aspect of your life that you love, then STOP PLAYING.

This isn’t about obtaining armor for the sake of it being armor. Its about obtaining shiny new skins. If a WvW player just wanted exotic armor, its incredibly cheap to buy them with badges of honor.

People still do not seem to understand that maxing out your tickets for the week is not supposed to be something done in a reasonable amount of time for everyone. Diamond chest is not designed to be easy to obtain and reliably complete every week, so stop basing all your arguments on diamond chest/maxing tickets. If you are one of the people complaining about it being a “second job” to finish diamond chest, then finishing diamond chest is not meant for you.

Nobody is forcing anyone to play this mode over any other mode.

I agree that the based pips need to be adjusted to shorten the required play time for newer players. I do not agree that the veteran bonus should be any less ahead of new players than it is now.

IE, if base pips are tuned up to+5, bronze players should be getting +5 on top of the new base, etc for all ranks above.

Oh a matchup thread? This will be gone pretty soon probably, buuuuuut…

Every server has garbage players and garbage tactics. Though to the credit of some of the above posters, Mag solo roamers seem more garbage than the other server’s I’ve faced. Out of the past few months, I think SBI had the most challenging solo/small scale opposition.

Ashen.2907:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Wrong, new and old players who step on PvE will get the same number of AP for completing some achievement, will get the same reward for finishing a Dungeon, Fractals, Raid and other events on general.

Can a new player in rare gear jump right into lvl 100 fractal? A raid?
Please think about the whole picture before posting your incredibly ill-informed bias.

No on Fratals no cause agony, but on raids i am pretty sure that there are groups who made it using only green gear…but still, a group can carry a new player through a Fractal and even if he didnt do anything, in the end he will get the rewards as well. This is very common actually, people even sell spots on groups for players in exchange of gold.

Great, none of those scenarios are relevant to the current discussion here, thanks.

Why not? I said that other game modes(PvE and PvP) reward all players the same, no matter for how long they the game…you said its was false and i proved to you that it is actually true….how is this not relevant?

This topic is about new and old players putting in the same time/effort.

Not really.

The veteran player who has put in 3000 hours of time and effort is getting more than a non veteran who has put in 10 hours. Perhaps the math I learned in gradeschool is out of date, but they used to teach that 3000 greater than 10.

If the vet and non vet work side by side getting to tier 3 participation on a given day, when the tick comes to earn pips the vet will have put in 3000 hours of 5ime and effort toward that tick while the non vet will have put in 10.

Once the non vet puts in the time and effort to match where the vet is now he will earn the same.

People calling the current system unfair are essentially asking that new players earn the same rewards with less time and effort investment than that put in by veterans.

Yes, really – it is literally the sole reason the OP created this thread. Go read the original post, and while you’re at it please read the few posts leading up to the one that you replied to. I think the system is fair, you are agreeing with me that the system is fair, but your reply is not relevant to the post-grouping you are replying to…

Felipe.1807:

Jasonbdj.4021:

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Wrong, new and old players who step on PvE will get the same number of AP for completing some achievement, will get the same reward for finishing a Dungeon, Fractals, Raid and other events on general.

Can a new player in rare gear jump right into lvl 100 fractal? A raid?
Please think about the whole picture before posting your incredibly ill-informed bias.

No on Fratals no cause agony, but on raids i am pretty sure that there are groups who made it using only green gear…but still, a group can carry a new player through a Fractal and even if he didnt do anything, in the end he will get the rewards as well. This is very common actually, people even sell spots on groups for players in exchange of gold.

Great, none of those scenarios are relevant to the current discussion here, thanks.

Why not? I said that other game modes(PvE and PvP) reward all players the same, no matter for how long they the game…you said its was false and i proved to you that it is actually true….how is this not relevant?

Because you are relating AFKing and carrying to active participation. This topic is about new and old players putting in the same time/effort.

Well I said that because you give me a extreme example, a new account wont even know what a hell is a fractal or a raid, godkitten man….and even if he choose to do it, yes he could get carried and would get the same rewards as everyone else…but lets go to other example then:
Someone who plays Fractals since its release wont get more rewards then someone who started playing a year ago. A Dragon rank wont get more pips on PvP just because he played longer then a Dolyak rank. So I ask you, Why a Diamond rank should get more rewards then someone who is new or even someone who allready have all the WvW skills unlocked(Rank 1000)?

Why should a experienced employee get paid more than a new inexperience employee on the same job role?

This is GW2, a game not a job, so dont avoid the question…“Someone who plays Fractals since its release wont get more rewards then someone who started playing a year ago. A Dragon rank wont get more pips on PvP just because he played longer then a Dolyak rank. So I ask you, Why a Diamond rank should get more rewards then someone who is new or even someone who allready have all the WvW skills unlocked(Rank 1000)?”

There are multiple options to choose from to obtain a logical answer here. They’re just not the answers that you specifically want to hear. Heres a few:

-ANET realizes that Vet’s were not rewarded for a very long time, and rewards them such with extra bonuses towards the new system.

-The system was maybe put in place this way under the assumption that it would compare reward currency from other game modes when new end-rewards were released, such as Raiders already stockpiling LI’s, or PvPers stockpiling shards.

-ANET realizes that angering players new to WvW might stop them from playing the mode, but the WvW vets will continue to play regardless. But if they anger WvW vets, the vets might leave, which in turn deletes the game mode.

Here’s my favorite:
-The reward system was intentionally designed for Veteran Players.

KrHome.1920:

The outnumbered tickrate should be the normal one (and outnumbered bonus should be decreased from 5 to 1 or 2 pips). Then it takes around 10 hours to complete the chests for a gold ranked player.

20 hours (5 pips per tick) is absurd and feels not fun but exausting (to me at least). It is a huge timesink. Server population is already dopping massively because people realized it takes ages just to unlock some stuff. Not worth it.

The 175 cap is enough to keep players busy for months or even years.

If it is exhausting, then the cap is not a goal meant for you. Do you think it should be easier to be legend rank in PvP? WvW is not a “take a day and grind this reward out” like it is in PvE. Diamond chest is not a goal meant for casual play, please get that through your head.

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Wrong, new and old players who step on PvE will get the same number of AP for completing some achievement, will get the same reward for finishing a Dungeon, Fractals, Raid and other events on general.

Can a new player in rare gear jump right into lvl 100 fractal? A raid?
Please think about the whole picture before posting your incredibly ill-informed bias.

No on Fratals no cause agony, but on raids i am pretty sure that there are groups who made it using only green gear…but still, a group can carry a new player through a Fractal and even if he didnt do anything, in the end he will get the rewards as well. This is very common actually, people even sell spots on groups for players in exchange of gold.

Great, none of those scenarios are relevant to the current discussion here, thanks.

Why not? I said that other game modes(PvE and PvP) reward all players the same, no matter for how long they the game…you said its was false and i proved to you that it is actually true….how is this not relevant?

Because you are relating AFKing and carrying to active participation. This topic is about new and old players putting in the same time/effort.

Felipe.1807:

Turk.5460:

Felipe.1807:

Wrong, new and old players who step on PvE will get the same number of AP for completing some achievement, will get the same reward for finishing a Dungeon, Fractals, Raid and other events on general.

Can a new player in rare gear jump right into lvl 100 fractal? A raid?
Please think about the whole picture before posting your incredibly ill-informed bias.

No on Fratals no cause agony, but on raids i am pretty sure that there are groups who made it using only green gear…but still, a group can carry a new player through a Fractal and even if he didnt do anything, in the end he will get the rewards as well. This is very common actually, people even sell spots on groups for players in exchange of gold.

Great, none of those scenarios are relevant to the current discussion here, thanks.

Felipe.1807:

Wrong, new and old players who step on PvE will get the same number of AP for completing some achievement, will get the same reward for finishing a Dungeon, Fractals, Raid and other events on general.

Can a new player in rare gear jump right into lvl 100 fractal? A raid?
Please think about the whole picture before posting your incredibly ill-informed bias.

saerni.2584:

Technically a soldiers build wouldn’t need the toughness. It would be more apt to put power, vitality, precision or power, vitality, ferocity (depending on the builds).

Still the problem relates to cleanse. Toughness, I would argue, is much less important to whether a person can survive power damage than cleanse is to whether a person can survive conditions.

I can build with a lot of toughness and still take a lot of damage. It’s only when you add in high damage reduction builds (specialization choices and some weapon/utility choices) that overall sustain against power damage is an issue. Why ask to take away someone’s armor when the real problem is perma protection and -% damage traits?

In the case of defense against condi it isn’t the armor that is preventing you from having cleanse. It’s the balance of cleanse and application. People complain they die to conditions too quickly given only one stat is involved and blame the armor when they should be asking for nerfs to cleanse and application to bring down condition based DPS in the context of one primary damage stat.

Taking away armor stats is a stupid suggestion. It won’t happen in a game based around earning rewards. Balancing suggestions are what people need to be making. This whining about a stat set is not productive to improving balance.

In an ideal GW2, sure.

This is not ideal, and whether you see it or not does not change the fact that armor stats are part of the balance. And since we are not seeing any balance relating to the condi application rate, damage, or potency of cleanses – we now look towards balancing the armor instead so there is more counterplay – I.E. being able to kill those players at the same rate as players who require 3 stats to dish out similar damage.

saerni.2584:

I’d like to briefly point out that cleanse throws a nasty variable into this discussion.

Without cleanse a soldiers vs Dire battle will result in Dire winning hands down. A soldiers build with a lot of cleanse will beat the Dire.

Further, build matters a lot. Even if a build uses a lot of cleanse that doesn’t make it a good build (it still needs to enhance damage through trait synergy with the skills). All these complaints about necro keep mentioning power damage reduction traits. Maybe that’s your issue and not Dire? Blaming it on the armor is hardly fair.

I feel most of the complaints about Dire boil down to complaints about cleanse, class vs class balance, and the classic problem that some builds/players are simply better than others. It’s an illusion that everything is easier when you take out stat combinations. It’s actually harder because now all the condition builds that were using Dire swap to even higher DPS builds and suddenly everything gets “worse” because “condi builds are hitting harder than ever.”

I use Deadshot in pvp. It is more effective in small scale than Dire would be (at same amount of available stats). Even if Dire were offered I would take the Deadshot option. I take Dire in WvW so I can roam and survive being jumped by 3-5 people. Cleanse, toughness, damage reduction traits and mobility are what save me. Dire is just a factor I use because the meta remains power damage and so the toughness helps me out.

Give me Deadshot armor in WvW. See how you like it.

Really? You really think soldier’s stats would defeat a dire stat just because of cleanses? Barely any crit, no extra crit damage – which is pathetic vs today’s sustain, not to mention the toughness + hp pool of a dire wearer.

In a soldier’s vs. dire fight, on pretty much any condi spec could stand still while fighting and still win, there are no cleanses that can out-cleanse condi application for a sustained period of time. (arguably not thief, due to 1 type of condi being the only one truly spammable)

Cleanses have a MUCH higher cooldown than condi application.

zectra.6978:

Dawdler.8521:

175 is the weekly cap yes… And IMO I think those that reach it are either AFKers or insane, lol. If there was no cap, people would be be logged in 24/7 standing around in spawn.

I’ve played pretty casually (about 2 hours a night) and reached it pretty easy, I think on Wednesday.

Please see my simple math above. You did not play 2 hours a night.

Roxanne.6140:

This reward system is not encouraging to new-comers at all. Heck it isn’t even encouraging to partially old timers like me. Unless you are of a high rank, the number of pips and the length of time needed to even get all 175 tickets a week is too much for a working person like me. It seems here again that Anet has employed the same tactics used for hot maps, make everything time-gated. All the cringey voices in the world wouldn’t help people who have to work like me.

To put it specifically, the map queues died down within the first week. I guess many pve’ers saw how sick it was to get the rewards and simply left in cringe. Plus the rank simply rewards ppl who levelled hardcore in eotm. You earn ranks much faster in eotm k-trains then in wvw fighting for a tower or a camp.

I’m silver, I play casually, I did not get the ticket cap. I barely finished mithril and I truly did play about 2 hours a day (more than I normally put in in a week). I don’t mind, and I don’t see a problem. It is a cap, why does everyone think completing diamond is something meant for casual play? It is clearly meant as a reward for more dedicated “hardcore” players who put more time in.

Najten.2418:

Prysin.8542:

So you are saying that people like me, who DONT have agony trinkets, DONT know the map rotations, DONT know the boss mechanics, DONT know the shortcuts, DONT know the gear combinations, DONT know where to even go to play fractals of the mist has it “easy” to get the PvE her0 gear?

Do i want a fractal backpack? yes
Can i get it without investing hugely into Fractals? NO

IS IT FAIR TO THOSE WHO SPENT HUNDREDS OF HOURS PLAYING TO GET THE FRACTAL BACKPACK, TO LOWER REQUIREMENTS FOR FRACTAL BACKPACK BECAUSE I DONT PLAY IT ENOUGH TO GET WHAT I WANT?? NO

Life isnt fair. you CHOSE not to play WvW when leveling was easier. Likewise i CHOSE not to invest into PvE and learning how to play fractals.

CHOICES HAS CONSEQUENCES

And FYI, my WvW level is below 750. I dont expect to hit 2k anytime soon given how little i play. But i am not going to cry-bully my way to making it easier.

WvW never gets anything nice. Our achievements takes YEARS to complete due to the ridiculous amount of kills/escorts/flips you need. And we get rewarded with nearly nothing. So when WvW finally gets a good reward for the countless hours it takes to get where we are, then you have no right to come here and cry bully your way to make it easy.

Your whole post is infact a giant “middle finger” to all WvW players, past and present.

The issues with your argument: You’re acting as if you need to be able to start a lvl 100 Fractal to obtain the Fractal Backpack. You don’t. You don’t have to earn a single level in Fractals.. You can start the collection off without ever having set foot in there before.
The only thing that will in any way gate you is Agony resistance. You know how to get this? Buy 3072 +1 Agony Infusions go trade them in for 12 +8 Agony Infusions and 6 +9 Agony Infusions at the INFUZ-5959 golem inside the Mistlock Observatory. It’ll cost you ~63g 50s. Apply Infusions to armor and trinkets. Done. You can now complete all Backpack related achievements.
You compare that to grinding rank 2000 in WvW? Please allow me to snicker a bit.

How much Gold do you think WvW awards vs. what we need to spend on it, or had to spend on it in the past? PvE farming for gold, to even hope of purchasing what you suggest, counts towards the time-gate and grind. Please allow me to laugh directly in your face “a bit.” (a lot).

I made 18 gold last week. Most of which was from 2g daily completion.

Bloodyjoker.4327:

Heibi.4251:

@Bloodyjoker –
In your own words “Anet don’t owe you anything, you are not entitled to anything for willingly playing a video game.”

ANeT is doing the smart thing and actually recognizing that long time high ranking players have kept the WvW game mode alive. Without it we wouldn’t be talking about pips. The problem here is that players, seemingly like you and others who want everything “equal”, think ANeT actually owes you something.

With the new pip system ANeT is trying to encourage more play in WvW obviously. I’m sure they could up the basic reward – server match up position in a skirmish 1st, 2nd, 3rd. But giving everyone the same pip count makes no sense. WvW rank actually means something now, beyond having cata mastery and such. Once we reached the completion of all the masteries in WvW we got nothing but titles for the enemy to snipe. Now we actually get rewards befitting our time and effort we put into the game. Play long enough and you’ll get there too.

First thing of all, I don’t think anet owe me something, i just think the way pips are scale base on rank are way too high… a new player need to play 40+ hours in a week while someone in high rank only need 20 hours. thats 20 hours different per week… so people like me have to spend extra 20 hours more every weeks for just to get the same reward. now i dont know and i dont care what happen few years ago cause it got nothing to me as i dont even play this game, but when i bring this current issue of “unfair effort compare to reward” up to anet, these so call “vets” came out of no where and start dropping their tears on me and start to tell me how they were “neglected,” so I as a new player should just suck it up and being put in the dirt. I just started playing this game and the only mode i have played is wvw, so im not one of those you called pve or pvp er, so plz don’t slap those on me also. My experience so far is I am doing everything these high rank player are doing, caping camps, towers, killing enemies, and i dont see them doing anymore than i am, but i have to spend 3-4 times the hours than them. The reward gap between new and old players is ridiculous, to put it in your word, i feel “neglected” as a new player to game, I am putting the same effort as other while they progress way more reward. And I am not making this complain to “vets” wvw players of this game, I am complaining this to Anet as a new costumer to their company, but somehow you guys drop out of sky and demand that i shouldn’t voice my opinion, that i should keep quiet. The reason I bought this game was my friend telling me the community is nice, but holy Jesus, if i have known this. If anet decide not to change im am not gonna cry, im not gonna stick to wvw and keep being “neglected” for years like some of you have, i will just try other game mode, if i still find nothing, just like i said to you, no one is pointing a gun at my head, i will just move on. No hard feeling, just feeling the current wvw is not worth my time and are just expressing my concern to anet.

Then why are you basing what you think is fair on what you get VS. what someone else gets? Shouldn’t your argument be more of “increase the base rate of progress” instead of “this person is way faster than me, slow them down so they can suffer with me.”

Do you like comedians?

“The only time you look in your neighbor’s bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don’t look in your neighbor’s bowl to see if you have as much as them.” — Louis CK

SkyShroud.2865:

Dire isn’t strong, tb is.

My condi necro in all exotic dire gear begs to differ. I literally smash buttons on cooldown and win fights that I clearly should not be winning.

kash.9213:

Turk.5460:

Ehhhh, I think you’re either full of dookie, or you’re outnumbered for a staggering majority of your WvW time, which is probably not the case on NSP.

Lets say you’re silver, and NSP is ticking in first place for your entire WvW playtime:

2hours a day= 24 pip ticks per day.
24 pip ticks at silver in 1st place = 120 pips per day.
120 pips per day at 7 days = 840 pips per week.

1450 pips required to get all 175 tickets per week.

Well, diamond reset and I’m not getting tickets anymore and I know other people knocked theirs out early just doing stuff. If you want to do maths and kitten go ahead, don’t know what we’re arguing about.

Trinnitty.8256:

unless your getting outmanned buff per tick it takes 3-4 hours a day not couple hours per day… average tick of 5 pips.

I probably cranked out a good stretch on the weekend, and I do have to hit up the outmanned maps, can’t get into EB anymore.

Yeah, I did do the math. And was very generous with it. Its incredibly unlikely that you will obtain ticket cap at 2 hours a day, even more so when you say that 2 hours wasn’t all in WvW, partially doing crafting dailies and such. I don’t doubt that you have reached cap, I just think you are playing for longer per day than you might remember…

kash.9213:

Dawdler.8521:

175 is the weekly cap yes… And IMO I think those that reach it are either AFKers or insane, lol. If there was no cap, people would be be logged in 24/7 standing around in spawn.

I reached it mid week and I play a casual two hours or so a night but that includes my dailies for food and tool crafting and all that. I’m not on the squads all the time, I like to zig zag across the map a bit and knock out sentries, ruins, and camps and I’ll just hook up with whatever group or squad fights I run into. Playing a complete game feels more important than tagging everything your squad is blowing up over and over again and you don’t want to keep getting the same kills all night. I think a casual but active player should have little problem reaching cap before match ends as long as they’re seeing all their actions through.

Ehhhh, I think you’re either full of dookie, or you’re outnumbered for a staggering majority of your WvW time, which is probably not the case on NSP.

Lets say you’re silver, and NSP is ticking in first place for your entire WvW playtime:

2hours a day= 24 pip ticks per day.
24 pip ticks at silver in 1st place = 120 pips per day.
120 pips per day at 7 days = 840 pips per week.

1450 pips required to get all 175 tickets per week.

Jaysian.8135:

Turk.5460:

Spoichiche.1290:

Turk.5460:

Parallel to your logic, veteran WvW players should have been given a LARGE amount of claim tickets from the start of this new WvW update. For free, obviously, since the same rewards weren’t given throughout the few years prior.

This wouldn’t be much different than how it is now ….would it?

You really don’t understand the complaints do you?

If when the update dropped every player got x number of skirmish tickets based on their rank, and for every rank gained from this point on, every player would get x amount of ticket, there would be no issue. Because players would be progressing at the same speed.

The problem the current system has and why people are calling it unfair, is because wvw rank affect the rate at which you earn rewards. It’s exponential instead of linear, meaning that not only new players will never catch up with the vets, but the vets will continuously increase their lead until both the new player and the vet get to rank 10000.
And when i’m talking about the reward, i’m not just talking about the skirmish tickets, but all the reward linked to pip aquisition (including the repeatable chest).

Now you’re free to think wether that’s fair of not, but please, at least try to understand what the issue is.

I completely understand the complaints. I’m merely stating that if it happened differently, and X group of players started off with more currency than Y group of players, then Y group of players would still complain to the same extent that is happening right here in this thread.

Nope i would not complain about that, just like i know people who participated in previous spvp seasons are gonna have more pvp tickets and ascended shard of glory than me who just started this season. Because I know everytime time i win a match every hour i spend, our reward progress are still gonna be very similar even compare to people who play spvp since the game came out. But it discouraging when someone who run next to you in wvw doing the exact samething, get 5-6 times faster reward progress.

??

If my theoretical alternative was in place, the vets would already have the rewards they are currently getting “5-6 times faster” right now. They would have gotten what you’re apparently “competing” to get on day 1 of the update.

So if your complaint is that they’re getting towards the rewards faster, logically, you would be more upset by my devil’s advocate system.

It just means that the diamond tier does not issue more tickets each time you complete it.

Spoichiche.1290:

Turk.5460:

Parallel to your logic, veteran WvW players should have been given a LARGE amount of claim tickets from the start of this new WvW update. For free, obviously, since the same rewards weren’t given throughout the few years prior.

This wouldn’t be much different than how it is now ….would it?

You really don’t understand the complaints do you?

If when the update dropped every player got x number of skirmish tickets based on their rank, and for every rank gained from this point on, every player would get x amount of ticket, there would be no issue. Because players would be progressing at the same speed.

The problem the current system has and why people are calling it unfair, is because wvw rank affect the rate at which you earn rewards. It’s exponential instead of linear, meaning that not only new players will never catch up with the vets, but the vets will continuously increase their lead until both the new player and the vet get to rank 10000.
And when i’m talking about the reward, i’m not just talking about the skirmish tickets, but all the reward linked to pip aquisition (including the repeatable chest).

Now you’re free to think wether that’s fair of not, but please, at least try to understand what the issue is.

I completely understand the complaints. I’m merely stating that if it happened differently, and X group of players started off with more currency than Y group of players, then Y group of players would still complain to the same extent that is happening right here in this thread.

CutesySylveon.8290:

A discussion on how to approach vet players and rewards they didn’t have is something I have no opinion on.

Whether or not you have an opinion on this doesn’t make it any less relevant to the general aspect of “fairness” in the current system, or how the system was designed, and who was in mind when it was created and implemented.

To clarify my intended message: It is in my opinion that the current bonuses to the rate of acquisition are directly related to the lack of relevant rewards prior to the update.

CutesySylveon.8290:

Chaba.5410:

CutesySylveon.8290:

There’s no way a PvE player can get raid armor faster than anyone else if they all put in the same effort. An example would be getting an extra Legendary Insight for each boss kill, or 2 or 3 etc.

Bad example because “same effort” doesn’t exist.

The amount of Legendary Insights you can gain per week is limited 13 (for the first months of raids it was only 3!). Not all PvE players can gain all 13 per week. The reason for this has to do with their availability, access to a team and gear, knowledge, and experience of every single boss of every wing. New players to raids are not going to be gaining all LIs every week.

The amount of WvW claim tickets you can gain per week is limited to 175. Not all WvW players can gain all 175 per week. Again the reasons for this have to do with availability, access to a team and gear, knowledge, and experience.

My point is that new raiders are not restricted by the fact that they are new and veteran raiders are not given any specific advantage because they’ve been doing it longer when speaking of the rates of progress each have to attain the goal.

The initial three LI limit was because there were only 3 bosses to get them from when raids first came out.

Wether or not someone has the access to all available means to get something like LI’s is irrelevant because it’s determined player by player based on thier lives, time etc. The point is that two people under the same circumstances, a new player and an old player, will achieve the raid rewards at the same rate if they both fulfill the same criteria together. In WvW, however, a vet can do the exact same thing as a newbie, but progress much faster to the same rewards simply by being a vet.

I think the people who have stuck to wvw over the years should be rewarded for it, but alienating the newbies and making things more difficult for aspiring wvw players is not the way to go.

Parallel to your logic, veteran WvW players should have been given a LARGE amount of claim tickets from the start of this new WvW update. For free, obviously, since the same rewards weren’t given throughout the few years prior.

This wouldn’t be much different than how it is now ….would it?