Guild Wars 2

Svarty.8019:

Turk.5460:

Please try again with proper evidence that Thieves are in another league in terms of engage/disengage.

Well it’s obvious, isn’t it? Initiative allows Thieves to burst/spam most abilities like crazyfools. This includes engage/disengage.

Regen on initiative would make more sense if it were tied to them actually achieving something, or putting themselves in a risky position (like Necro has to with Life-Force), instead of having it magically return (and quickly) when they aren’t even near a fight. In this regard, the risk factor is lacking.

That’s the issue I think many people have with thief.

This wouldn’t apply to engage, unless the Thief is using the initiative to stack stealth, but they wont have much initiative to use after engaging. Certainly wouldn’t have enough to disengage immediately, unless they use shadowstep, if it’s not already on its 50s cooldown, or used on the engage and now out of its 10s return window…

In terms of disengage during an actual fight: If the Thief has a large amount of initiative to use specifically for disengaging, then what were they doing during the fight? Just auto attacking? If so, that is an incredibly low-tier style of playing which is only truly effective against equally low-tier opponents. If a Thief is fighting even a remotely competent opponent, the Thief is not going to have spare initiative to completely disengage, as the initiative is being managed and focused on the fight.

Choppy.4183:

I did provide evidence in the post I quoted in my last comment.

You did not. And I did not confirm your claim of Thieves being vastly superior in terms of engage/disengage. I’d avoid embellishment if I were you, it greatly hinders what little credibility you have in this thread.

Please try again with proper evidence that Thieves are in another league in terms of engage/disengage. I’ll give you a hint on how to do this, since you seem to be having trouble formulating backup: “Profession A can disengage using skill X followed by skill Y, while Profession B cannot because their skill Z doesn’t compare to Profession A’s skill X” Feel free to include cooldowns, commonly used traits, and combo fields, as these all play equal part. (Please remember that Thieves cannot equip both Unhindered Combatant and Bounding Dodger at the same time – a common mindset seen here)

I’ll even be generous here and accept you providing backup to your claim for only Mesmer, Ranger, and Engi, even though you made a vague blanket statement covering all professions.

Your turn.

Yeah I haven’t seen any difference as a roamer. Its easy to get to tier3 participation within 10 minutes on any of my roaming characters, and maintaining/increasing the bar is even easier…I don’t think the people making these threads actually roam.

Please stop using us in attempt to reinforce your arguments.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

S/D in general

Its like everyone whining in this thread plays one, and only one profession. No wonder you guys have problems with Thieves. You haven’t had the revelation that you need to actually play another profession to learn its tricks. You must be new here, welcome to GW2! If you need help learning a profession, please seek it out in that profession’s subforum!

Oh you don’t like your own logic played against you? You made a claim first. Please provide proof of said claim, then I will happily appease your inexperienced curiosity of basic game-play mechanics and self-combo tecqniques.

I can see why you don’t quite understand what it takes to engage or disengage as a ranger or engineer, but downplaying mesmer, the most obvious one that supports my opposing viewpoint, speaks miles to your lack of understanding of what these professions can do.

After you provide the proof that no other profession even comes close to thieves engage/disengage, please humor me and tell me what profession you play. I’m going to guess Warrior.

I’m also curious as to how you think Thieves disengage. What are the skills you think they use to do so. I’m assuming you are in the mindset that they can disengage at will a vast majority of the time

Choppy.4183:

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Sure, buddy. Whatever makes you feel better. I remember when I was new to WvW, too, you’ll learn the in’s and out’s eventually.

I mean, you can try to pivot like that. But a lot of us in this thread have been playing the game for years, many of us know each other in game, and have fought each other in game as well. We all use different classes and we know the other classes too.

That you think you can make a claim that’s counter to what’s apparent, refuse to demonstrate your claim when asked, and then think anyone will believe your transparently obvious attempt to escape the box you’ve put yourself in is kind of hilarious.

Clearly this puts any sort of credibility people may have given your other posts in jeopardy. But, sure, try that tack.

I merely contested your initial claim of Thieves “being in another league altogether” in terms of mobility – a false claim that has since hindered your following arguments.

Do some popular Thief builds have better mobility than other popular profession builds? Yes. But “In another league” denotes extreme superiority. Which is not the case. Now, you, the one who initiated such exaggeration, try to play the “Burden of Proof” fallacy? Since you so enjoy logical fallacies, as you’ve copied/pasted (while somehow blatantly misunderstanding the meaning behind the fallacies) in the past, shouldn’t you be proving to us that other professions are so laughably inferior in terms of engage/disengage?

Choppy.4183:

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Sure, buddy. Whatever makes you feel better. I remember when I was new to WvW, too, you’ll learn the in’s and out’s eventually.

Choppy.4183:

You’ve seen a lot of mesmers, rangers, and engineers using their superior engage/disengage to toy with groups of 5+, have you? Leading them around ganking anyone who stays just a little too far from the rest?

Yes. Very often. But at that point, is it really the fault of those professions – or is it the groups of “5+” (I’m assuming some sort of group of disabled turnips) for deciding that they need to chase these professions around in circles every time they appear…

Choppy.4183:

I don’t see other classes even close to having that level of engage/disengage. If you think otherwise, please describe exactly how a mesmer or ranger would be able to keep up what I just decided for five mins or so….

Ah, so you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the other professions as I previously thought. No, I won’t tell you, I’m not going to hold your hand here. Go to those subforums and request someone to teach you basic evasive maneuvers of those professions.

If they stealth right as I hit steal, I’ll see this. But most of my problems with steal are when it does shadowstep to the target, but doesn’t actually give an item, boons, endurance, etc.

Choppy.4183:

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer – in that order.

I’m not going to bother explaining why and what combos for each individual profession, since you seem to understand the fundamental concepts of this game.

I’ve said this before, and I guess I’ll throw it out there again onto the sea of deaf ears;

People here like to complain about anyone who has outplayed them, and immediately blame it on the profession/build/gear of their opponent. Thieves are preyed upon in this manner because the ones that have mastered the profession are the ones who frustrate you the most. Apparently any thief that is killed was only killed because they were inexperienced (in the eyes of the forum complaints).

If the same opponent has mastered a different profession and kills the same forum complainers, that forum complainer no doubt will cry just as hard about that profession. I.E. DH’s (albeit DH skill floor is much lower than Thief).

If it were so forgiving and easy, someone would have answered the call to record and post a video of them, a novice Thief, “easymoding” in WvW. Which we have requested whenever such accusations arise. Seriously, been asking for that type of proof for years, and none of the complainers have recorded anything to backup their asinine claims. Is it possibly because they were …gasp …wrong?

If every Thief you come across is wiping the floor with you, the problem isn’t the Thief, it’s you.

You must be confusing disengage with choosing engagements again if you think those the are on the same level as thief in this regard… and they don’t even have the same level of disengage either, unless you want to say all of them can successfully disengage from combat.

Beyond that, I really don’t know what to do with your comment. You make all sorts of allegations about my motivations that aren’t true for arguments that I haven’t actually made. I think I’ve been pretty clear and specific about the issues I’m raising and why, and they don’t remotely resemble your characterization of them.

Also, you’re living in a bubble if you think you have to be a master thief to be effective in small scale Wvw combat. Those days are long gone and most people freely acknowledge that.

Do you honestly think thief is hard to play in small scale Wvw?

You’re delusional if you don’t think Mesmer and Ranger have similar disengage as Thief. Engineer is not far behind. And they can choose their engagements just as well based on the disengage options available to them. Those two concepts go hand in hand, they’re not separate. The rest of my post wasn’t directed at you, but merely the concept of this thread as a whole, which was…pretty obvious.

Thief hard to play? No, though it’s not as easy to play as Guardian, Warrior, Necro, or Ranger. Is it hard to be effective? Yes, more so than any other profession (other than core ele, probably) considering it’s hard to be effective if you’re dead. And that’s what inexperienced Thieves usually are in small scale – kissing the dirt.

You’re basing your arguments on the skill ceiling, where every profession is deadly and can survive/disengage in the hands of a skilled player. And even moreso, you’re coming across as though you’re pitting your skill-ceiling based argument against the idea that every Thief’s opponents are on their profession’s skill-floor…

apharma.3741:

The part you carefully snipped out is refering to how many thief players forget me saying about buffing thief in other areas in a way for it to feel like a more well rounded class instead of this 1 trick pony it’s been for 5 years.

Your heart is in the right place, but your message is not. You mentioned that you advocate buffs – yet do not suggesting any actual buff, rather tossing out a vague “nerf x but give it something” (leaving that something up to anyone’s imagination.)

It is no better than just saying “nerf x.”

Choppy.4183:

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer – in that order.

I’m not going to bother explaining why and what combos for each individual profession, since you seem to understand the fundamental concepts of this game.

I’ve said this before, and I guess I’ll throw it out there again onto the sea of deaf ears;

People here like to complain about anyone who has outplayed them, and immediately blame it on the profession/build/gear of their opponent. Thieves are preyed upon in this manner because the ones that have mastered the profession are the ones who frustrate you the most. Apparently any thief that is killed was only killed because they were inexperienced (in the eyes of the forum complaints).

If the same opponent has mastered a different profession and kills the same forum complainers, that forum complainer no doubt will cry just as hard about that profession. I.E. DH’s (albeit DH skill floor is much lower than Thief).

If it were so forgiving and easy, someone would have answered the call to record and post a video of them, a novice Thief, “easymoding” in WvW. Which we have requested whenever such accusations arise. Seriously, been asking for that type of proof for years, and none of the complainers have recorded anything to backup their asinine claims. Is it possibly because they were …gasp …wrong?

If every Thief you come across is wiping the floor with you, the problem isn’t the Thief, it’s you.

mygirlparadise.7583:

Thank you ArenaNet for screwing over roamers.

I don’t see the issue with the decay timer. I don’t even see a difference from before the patch. I only roam, unless doing guild missions.

Last night I roamed for a few hours, and a few times I took a 6-10minute break, and was still in t6 participation. It may be based off what you were doing during the current skirmish? In the first half hour of roaming last night I waited the full duration (possibly longer, as I lost a fight trying to capture it) of a shrine’s RI in DBL, and only right after RI came off, did my participation go red and slowly decay. I was mid-t4 participation at that point.

There were multiple points throughout the night where I was traveling and did not do anything that would grant participation for a few minutes at a time, decay never set in during these times. I think there are other factors that are playing into the decay timer here, since I can say with absolute certainty that it did not start at 30s for me.

Yeah, no. You’re not doing 2k autos on a dire/tb reaper.
I’m sorry that you don’t understand other professions abilities.

I’m also truly sorry that you seem to be fighting potatoes.

Choppy.4183:

What this adds up to in small scale combat, particularly roaming, is a class that largely has total control over engagements. That doesn’t mean it’s favoured to win every fight, only that the thief gets to choose which fights to have, to easily bail from fights gone bad, to try again repeatedly in hopes of better results (often based on an opponent’s skills being in cd), and the primary counter to this mobile game is another thief.

That’s just boring.

This is not a good enough reason for change. There are multiple other professions that can choose their engagements/disengage on the same level that a Thief can. In terms of disengage, Thief isn’t even the best at that, Mesmer is.

I can see how disengage/reset is frustrating and all, but in terms of equal skill, it is no more of an advantage to the Thief than it is to their opponent:

1. Walk the opposite direction to make the disengaged thief spend resources to catch up.
2. You are also out of combat the moment the Thief is, probably earlier due to almost every other profession having more on-demand condi cleanse.
3. The only opponent cooldowns that could possibly be a concern after a reset (Which means you won, by the way. you don’t have to double-down stomp your opponent to win) would be some elite skills. And even then they are very few, as you probably shouldn’t button-mash panic-spam your elite button upon the start of every engagement…

Skada.1362:

… even DHs (simply switch mainhand dagger to pistol before engaging and unload/dodge spam ezpz).

So what did you do with those 3k hours of roaming? Farm the PvE creatures on the map? A blind mouse playing a DH could easily deal with a P/P thief…Oh you’re on EU, thats probably why you’re taking out DH’s “ezpz”

As far as the wood-tier people complaining about thieves being immune to their soft cc – most roaming thieves use Bounding Dodger. I’ve seen less than 5 weekly use Unhindered Combatant outside of combat. This is the same mindset of “everyone who roams is a dire/tb condition build!”

I don’t have a hard time fighting Thieves when I’m playing my Engi, Guardian, Ranger, or Necro. Thieves are at a disadvantage against these 4 professions, using their most common builds. But apparently, being weak to half, and strong against the other half – is too much. Thieves have to become weak to all before some of these crybabies are satisfied.

There used to be a time when I would give constructive feedback to people’s complaints. But it is so apparent that the majority of people complaining about Thieves on this forum haven’t played a Thief in WvW, and are basing their whines on pure speculation and bias – there is no use in trying to show them why their opinions are so skewed and mostly incorrect.

They’re only coming here to look for other ill-informed forum-goers to complain in tandem.

I wish this skill reflected projectiles like the Thief stolen version does.

Jana.6831:

Sidenote: It’s one thing if you don’t get that Jana is a female name, another if you can’t distinguish a female from a male voice. Maybe try to have some more respect – I mean that.

I don’t watch gamer youtube videos with sound on. Sorry, not sorry.

Jana.6831:

Turk.5460:

Does anyone know how to go directly to the trait panel with one key like this person does at 9:13?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saSCzUS_hHI

I couldn’t find a bind for it in the key bindings, so for years I’ve just been pressing h, then having to manually click the tab.

Edit: Oh, after looking at the video some more, it looks like he is using a macro, the mouse just appears in the correct locations… Is that even allowed?

No idea about the hero panel – but the mouse always being in teh right spot is something you get used to. I guess mine’s always where I need it as well – well almost always.
The person in the video is a ‘she’ btw.

And there’s a lot of good thieves in this game and according to what Deceiver told us how he’s playing (never saw it) – he should be the best – by far!

Good luck – and please don’t randomly accuse people to cheat or anything.

The hero panel comes up, the mouse “teleports” to the traits tab, then “teleports” to the trait – all in less than half a second. It is incredibly unlikely that precision and reaction time if human. Please don’t fanboy White Knight.

Sylvyn.4750:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Right now though, my major gripe with them is Acrobatics. Condition Thieves are irritating, but fine. Common power Thief is strong, but fine. Acro Thief is broken. Even bad ones are nearly impossible to lock down with that many evades and even a built in “evade all attacks” trait.

It’s true that it’s a punishing class to play and I absolutely respect good ones. Most players worth their salt know that a lot of the complaints about the class stem from inexperience but in this case, I hope people can agree that Acro is something that needs adjusting.

Acro/staff is the one build that really lets thieves participate in a zerg situation, though…bound into enemy zerg, vault, vault, vault, bound out. It works well in small to large group fights, but not so much 1v1 where the telegraphing of vault makes it harder to land if they are paying attention. That’s more annoying than the roaming perma-invis/condi gankers?

I find it surprising how many people think vault makes you immortal somehow. Vault is a liability, and for being our only 5-target zerg-style AoE, its evade is only for the first half of the animation. If there are fields, aoe, stuns, blinds, pretty much anything where your vault is going to land, chances are you are going to get loaded up with condis, stuns, or just die.

Does anyone know how to go directly to the trait panel with one key like this person does at 9:13?

I couldn’t find a bind for it in the key bindings, so for years I’ve just been pressing h, then having to manually click the tab.

Edit: Oh, after looking at the video some more, it looks like he is using a macro, the mouse just appears in the correct locations… Is that even allowed?

Vendorstrike!

Dat 30s per.

LetoII.3782:

It’s a part of the free to play business model. Flood you with loot, sell inventory spaces.
I agree it’s annoying but people HATE monthly subscriptions

A lot of people take this for granted. Pretty much every other MMO is either subscription based or Pay to Win in some regard. GW2 is not, yet people will still complain that “they paid for it” and “x should be changed” – even though they’ve gotten more playtime out of this game than ANY OTHER GAME for $60USD.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Fluffball.8307:

There have been a kittenton of threads about this over the years and it always comes down to “NO ONE HAS HEARD OF YOUR COMMANDER OUTSIDE OF THE LIKE 50 PEOPLE THAT FOLLOW HIM IN HIS TIMEZONE AND POSSIBLY ABOUT 6 ENEMIES THAT READ THE UNOFFICIAL WVW FORUMS.”

No one knows enemy players on enemy servers because you can’t see their names, end of discussion.

So much this!

Top anything is subjective when there is no way to directly compare the players contribution (aside from the ‘who the heck’ is that issue).

Seriously. No idea who any of the names mentioned in this thread are. And I don’t anyone really cares who they are, outside their own server/timezone haha.

ugrakarma.9416:

Swamurabi.7890:

One would think the since WvW is about combat between large number of players that DBL would be modified to allow for more if it to happen.

DBL disaster, is a show of what happens when a developer listens to “smart and strategic” people, hit and runners, roamers who are often a noisy minority in every PvP game forum.

To make their hit and run without punishment, they need everything in the game to have nerf, be it defenses or be attack. In the WvW case, plus zergs.

The result is that neither they themselves play the game mode.

The “noisy minority” in this game mode is people who claim to advocate “GvG.” DBL is a great map, and the community voted for it to return, the “no major updates” was referring to no new maps. So if people truly wanted it to stay ABL, they would not have voted for DBL to come back. Seems the majority of the players enjoy the change of new maps.

What people on these forums don’t realize is – the forums are the vocal minority. I would be surprised if any more than 10% of the player base visits the forums.

The only average shown is the 3 pips. Everything else is assuming best case scenario. The chart is laughable. And rank gain hasn’t even been a focal point on this thread until you decided it should be. Nobody cares about that, the discussion is about pips and more specifically base pips.

So again I ask, what thread are you reading? Because it certainly is not this one.

Neutra.6857:

I wonder if you realize how much of a turnoff some of you are for those of us who recently joined the WvW community or who played this as a secondary game mode.

First I only started the game about 3 years ago, and only started in WvW about a year ago and that only rarely. It is only for the last 3-4 months that I have been playing for any significant amount of time in WvW. What this means is that while I did WvW before the patch I was still at a low level (I need 5 levels to reach 150). I enjoy the game mode, but that does not mean I don’t also enjoy getting shinies.

I have no issue with those who are vets getting rewards faster, I do however feel that pip acquisition for those of us at low levels is too low. Hell even having the base rate gain be 2,3,4 for world position would help. Just that 1 pip difference would have a rather big effect for those of us at low levels, even if it doesn’t get us anywhere near diamond.

That’s pretty much what this thread is about now. People like you, who have basic logic and critical thinking skills. Versus others who try to derail this most basic of logic and reasoning, trying to disguise their selfish elitism with a unwarranted fear of “mode integrity” which was already in shambles before this patch existed.

And its pretty much the same 3 people opposing it vs. the countless newcomers to this thread with the same normal and reasonable thought process as you.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

I used a metric that represented an average, something achievable even for a roamer. There was entirely too much hand waving. The graph shows that..and i have others for super casual….really 10 hrs a week at 1 rank an hour over 1 yr you get like 4 k tickets and that assumes bare minimum pip aquisition 2 pips to start and the graph accounts for pip increases due to increasing rank.

So all the 2yrs bs is just that…..

Congratulations on your hard work which does not include any variables whatsoever. Not sure why you quoted me here, though, since my reply was in regard to someone thinking roaming is “bare minimum.”

But sure, lets talk about your chart.
I’m assuming you’re attempting to counter the argument that it would take casual players an unreasonable amount of time to see rewards?

OK please revise your chart to include:
-Casual newcomer WvW players aren’t spending their entirety of 2.14 hours from start to finish in WvW – AKA, just because they like the game mode, doesn’t mean it isntantly becomes the only thing they do in GW2.
-Not all ticks of a skirmish are going to be with Tier3 participation, and since your chart assumes 2nd place, it may take longer than 15 minutes to ramp up to t3, depending on availability of enemy points to capture.
-Time waiting in a queue if player is on a high pop server and can only play during prime time.

And there’s probably quite a few more variables that I’m leaving out. So please add the above, and possibly more, then we can take your chart seriously. But as of right now, the attempt is laughable. And even in a perfect world where there are zero variables it would still take over a month for someone to get a single piece of ascended gear. Imagine how long it would take with an actually accurate chart…

Not so BS now, is it?

Coldtart.4785:

It’s another ‘people defend pve in wvw’ episode.

Siege is trash. Npcs are trash. I’d like to at least sometimes get to fight players in this alleged pvp mode.

Yeah, and while we’re at it lets get rid of any uneven terrain. It should all be flat! Oh and textures just get in the way, too. Please make all terrain flat and grayscale. No trees or LOS possibilities, please!

Odokuro.5049:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Lahmia.2193:

Odokuro.5049:

Lahmia.2193:

Leolas.6273:

Those Condi thieves really sucks. The whole WvWvW is full with condis now and anet really think this should be fun? How pathetic. I will now really leave this game because it is really unfun to play. I can spend my freetime for more better games than this kitten.

Cool story. Send us all your materials and gold.

I wonder how far people can beat a dead meme.

As long as I have strength in my arm and QQ’ers, who threaten to leave because of something minor, I shall beat it hard.

^this….I totally love this and will stand erect in support of it 100%

You guys are super edgy man.

To be fair, why post that you are leaving as if that is supposed to change something. Its usually an empty threat anyway – as it was with this guy. I added him in game after I saw this post yesterday and lo&behold, he was online.

If you’re gonna leave the game, why announce it unless you’re just an attention ho.

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

I’m sure I’m not the only veteran WvWer with stories about kill/objective trading, noobs using precious sups to repair walls for achievements/participation while the keep is under assault, refusing to defend for achievement-related reasons, filling chat with vitriol because someone didn’t give them a turn on the cata for credit, the bandwagoning — this is what happens when shiny-hunters come into WvW. They take up space, they don’t get on TS, they don’t listen to commanders, they don’t cooperate with the rest of the team, and some of them don’t even read chat. WvW needs players like this about as much as it needs another tournament right now (i.e., not at all).

You just described half the WvW playerbase from before this update. Our WvW players are far from perfect, and if you’ll open your eyes, the people you’ve seen fight with you for years are the ones who you will mostly see being AFK in spawn.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The justification to turn away new players using an external motivator is that the gain won’t be worth the loss. I have no reasons to beleive what happened with pvp and EoTM isn’t likely to happen to WvW.

It already hasn’t…so…I don’t know what to tell you here. You’re waiting for a problem that was purely speculative, and has not, nor will happen.

Update launched, people flooded in, maps other than EBG were queued (having map queues is a good thing, more experienced WvW’ers like myself easily understand that), morale was, and still is up (on the 3 worlds I play on), a whole lot of people were hooked and have since been recruited into WvW guilds. And none of them would have stepped foot in here without that carrot. I think you’re just arguing and complaining for the sake of being stubborn, as none of the points you are poorly trying to defend make moral or logical sense for the good of WvW.

And then there came the whispers of AFK pip farming. Yeah, guess what, more than half of those AFK pip farmers that I saw, were people who had already been playing WvW. Whose experience are you trying to defend again?

Take a look at this forum, how many complaints were there when the update rolled out pertaining to actual new players in the way that you fear will absolutely destroy your WvW experience? I…don’t actually think there were any. All of the threads regarding this update were focused on the flaws of the reward system.

At least in WvW:

Condi is the path of least resistance. So players who are less confident in themselves will usually pick that and defensive stats like Dire/TB.

It’s not nearly the best, though. As it doesn’t really shine against multiple targets as Warrior. Our condi-applying cleave has incredibly short range, and our range condi is slow, single target, or is only applied in a line/frontal cone.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok…so…

Lets say you have never tried peanut butter. You have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to try some peanut butter. You think “ok sure, what is there to lose?” and you happen to like peanut butter, and now you enjoy eating peanut butter often!

According to you, there’s an inherent problem somewhere in this scenario.

Now lets try a different exercise, which is what the current reward system may be providing:

You’ve never tried peanut butter, you have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to eat nothing but peanut butter for every meal for the next week. You decide that it might not be best for you to even try peanut butter, because the means are not worth the reward.

So where is this “inherent” problem you see? Is it with the 5 dollar reward? Is it with me for offering too much money? Too little money? Is it with you, deciding whether or not to try peanut butter? Is it with the peanut butter itself? Is it with the people who already like peanut butter? Please explain, because your posts have been incredibly vague.

Your analogy is not exactly great.

The problem is how easily you want to give that 5$. Not that there is a 5$ inside the can of peanut butter. Beside, if you can’t even be bothered trying something that is under your nose for free the problem is not the game, it is you.

Still, you ask for a deeper explanations so…

If you give 5$ almost right away, you will have tons of people taking the money and little who will likely stick with the peanut butter. The law of large numbers will indeed yield new legit players, but at a cost for the community. What is that cost you ask and how is it inherently a problem?

The cost is how many carrot chasers are going to flood the game along the legit wvw lovers until they get their 5$ and how their play style and motivation will impact the fun of others negatively (see pvp, see EoTM).

As long as your external reward is what motivate your presence, it will impact how you will contribute inside the game in quantity and in quality. In quantity, because no reward = no player. In quality, because your decisions in the game will be oriented toward ticket maximization rather than the benefit of your team.

The dependancy to something other than the game itself is the inherent problem. On top of it, your very existance will impact others motivation to play.

Put simply, it isn’t your peanut butter can. It is everyone’s peanut butter can. And as such, I care how you plunder it.

I have no problem with any motivation to play any game as long as it doesn’t impact negatively the motivation of others. If you can manage to get motivated by a skin without any negative impact on others, I’m all for it… And If someone does not care about other’s motivations, why should we care about their’s?

Again, if it was a tier of equipment that was locked behind this game mode, we would not have this discussion. But it is not. It is merely a skin meant to be a reward for those who have invested significant amount of time in the game.

My analogy was fine. You fabricated extra variables that catered to your personal bias. And after all that, you failed to answer where the inherent problem was with my scenario. You merely showed a problem with one of your own plugged variables – The only reason I stepped foot into WvW was for map completion for a legendary weapon (gasp, a reward!). If that reward was never available, I wouldn’t think I’d ever have an interest in WvW, and never would have loaded it up, met friends, joined guilds, and became a loyal member of my World.

So….your inherent problem doesn’t include any backup or logic what-so-ever.

Now you speak as though all of the WvW Vets currently are not trying to maximize their tickets after this update. Which is wrong, I’m willing to bet that almost all WvW Vets first and foremost priority when they log in, is to get to Tier3 Participation, then go about doing their normal. You think they’re doing anything more than a newbie pip farmer on their way to that T3 Participation? No. And guess who I see AFK at the entries of the BL’s, taking up space because they want to maximize those pips? Veteran players, whose names I recognize from seeing on a regular basis over the years. Much, much, MUCH more veteran players AFKing than newbie players.

You also keep throwing around more of your personal bias as though it were law: Its just skins, not a “tier” of equipment. Hey, wake up. An overwhelmingly large portion of this game is about skins. Legendary weapons are simply skins, since their stats don’t differ from ascended. All raid rewards are simply…skins.
Get off your pedestal, please.

So back to the original question I have posed many times, and many selfish individuals have avoided directly answering…And now that you hopefully see that its equal part veteran players, if not more, taking part in what you deem detrimental to the game mode…

What justification is there to turn away potential new recruits by locking their motivation behind an incredible number of hours that are unhealthy to any individual?

Or are you simply blind to the fact that you and your fellow veteran players are guilty of the very thing you claim to be concerned about. Because I don’t believe for one second, that someone who cares enough to visit the forums and oppose the fun of others, is not also AFK in spawn while their participation drops.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Wvwers wanted rewards for rank.
Rank takes a long time to get.
New ppl want these same rewards without the need for rank.

Wrong. Please re-read the majority of this thread.

Shazmataz.1423:

Turk.5460:

I don’t see why any veteran WvW player would oppose changes to base pips, giving new players a little more incentive to continue with the game mode and hopefully help revitalize it. Our veteran bonuses wouldn’t change, we’d still get rewards faster than the newbies.

If these “veteran” players really don’t care about the rewards like they claim not to, then I don’t see why they’re even posting in this thread to begin with. It seems like they do actually care about rewards, but by golly I don’t think they’ll admit that. Would they?

A question to all WvW players opposing changes to base pips to make it easier on the newcomers: Do you care about WvW rewards more than the WvW game mode?

I almost solely wvw and prolly classed as a vet, the new shinies are nice to have the option of going for but I seriously haven’t really looked at them or how you get them. I’m just having fun playing wvw as usual, all the while getting pips and welcoming/trying to help the new people to get onto teamspeak, get decent builds and listen to the commander.

What I do object to is the sense of entitlement that I see in alot of posts complaining about the disadvantage to new players and “grind”…if you consider it a grind well don’t do it. If you really want the skins, accept and embrace the mode and what is required, just do it instead of coming to forum and complaining about how things are. You might actually be surprised how fast things go if you just play.

I, too, only play WvW. Judging by the way you held yourself in your post, I’m probably much more of a WvW veteran than you are. I’m getting my rewards, and its fairly easy for me to do so. I like that I get a bonus over the people who didn’t put so much time into WvW previously. But that does not justify the length these newcomers have to go through to see even a speckle of the reward through a telescope. The entitlement is with the other WvW mains who don’t want to see other people happy, and they’re driving away the first good thing to happen in WvW in a very long time.

And to anyone who is reading this, holy crap stop using “I don’t want PvE’ers to grind out a reward then leave.” NOBODY has asked for the rewards to be anything remotely as easy as that. We still want the newcomers to have to commit. We just don’t think over a year is reasonable.

HazyDaisy.4107:

I just want to know where all these disadvantaged new players were 3-1/2 weeks ago.

But, let’s say 1 million people purchased the game over the last 3-1/2 weeks and chose wvw as their introduction to GW2, a bit odd considering they’d have to level first, but whatever, we need the bodies so come on in.

Look at that, new players can get a legendary backpack at level 350…what’d I get at level 350? Oh yeah stomped more often by increasingly bigger crowds of people while wearing exotic level and below gear in T6 or T7. Man, those new people have it rough.

This is not constructive nor related to the discussion. Context clues and even more obvious posts will tell you that the term “new player” in this thread is not referring to someone who just got Guild Wars 2 and made a brand new character. It is simply referring to GW2 players who have not tried the WvW game mode.

Jayne.9251:

But we have seen with past WvW-only loot, people come in, don’t contribute, and leave once they grind it out in as few as a couple days. Then complain that there’s no content.

Nobody is asking to lower the reward scale so it can be grinded in a couple of days. People are asking for it to be made a little easier so it can be grinded in a few months instead of years. And if the newbies enjoy it enough over those few months, they’ll continue to join us regularly. There is simply no reason for it to take anyone almost a year or more to complete.

Ansau.7326:

Seriously, anyone saying they come to WvW for rewards or skins shouldn’t put a foot into it, is doing nothing good for the game mode.

The only reason I stepped foot into WvW 3 years ago was to complete map exploration for a legendary weapon. Yup, I only tried it out because I wanted a reward. I have barely played anything but WvW since then.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. You say PvE is unwanted and dare to cite RvR? RvR had areas dedicated to PvE that just so happened to be in a place other players could engage you.

NeHoMaR.9812:

Turk.5460:

I like fighting them.

Ok, I respect your opinion, but that’s really hard to believe; Maybe the first 10 times you kill them, but after 10000 times …

Lahmia.2193:

… In other keeps and SMC, attacking zergs can bunker inside the lord room because the lords themselves have very little impact on the fight itself, as (in my opinion) it should be.

Exactly.

It doesn’t seem like you respect anyone’s opinion other than your own, as you’ve made clear in this thread. You’re simply looking for people to agree with you, not debate with you.

Let me make this perfectly clear: I enjoy fighting DBL keep lords and tower lords. Their mechanics are fun for me, every time I fight them. The same goes for many of my friends and guildmates. On top of that, why should my opponents lose their defensive advantage just because I broke a wall or gate? It sounds like you want PvP. There is a whole game mode dedicated to that, btw.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Turk.5460:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The only way you will find out if you enjoy a game mode or not is by trying it. Providing a positive social experience is how one gets hooked into such a community. So, be nice to new players and help them when they ask for help.

Turk.5460:

Right, but what about players who would be interested, but didn’t think they would be interested in it, and never gave it a chance before. How do we get them to give it a chance, and actually spark that interest?

……I didn’t think I really needed to spell this one out for anyone, but I guess I was wrong.

The rewards are what will get them to actually try the game mode that they may or may not enjoy.

You replied as if I was asking how we are supposed to get people who already play WvW to keep playing WvW. No. I am advocating a way to get people who do not already play WvW to give it a try. What thread are you reading, because it’s certainly not this one.

I had understood your point, but I find it poor. If they need a reward to even try something, there is an inherent problem from my POV.

Too much external motivation is not a good long term solution for any game mode.

Ok…so…

Lets say you have never tried peanut butter. You have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to try some peanut butter. You think “ok sure, what is there to lose?” and you happen to like peanut butter, and now you enjoy eating peanut butter often!

According to you, there’s an inherent problem somewhere in this scenario.

Now lets try a different exercise, which is what the current reward system may be providing:

You’ve never tried peanut butter, you have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to eat nothing but peanut butter for every meal for the next week. You decide that it might not be best for you to even try peanut butter, because the means are not worth the reward.

So where is this “inherent” problem you see? Is it with the 5 dollar reward? Is it with me for offering too much money? Too little money? Is it with you, deciding whether or not to try peanut butter? Is it with the peanut butter itself? Is it with the people who already like peanut butter? Please explain, because your posts have been incredibly vague.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The only way you will find out if you enjoy a game mode or not is by trying it. Providing a positive social experience is how one gets hooked into such a community. So, be nice to new players and help them when they ask for help.

Turk.5460:

Right, but what about players who would be interested, but didn’t think they would be interested in it, and never gave it a chance before. How do we get them to give it a chance, and actually spark that interest?

……I didn’t think I really needed to spell this one out for anyone, but I guess I was wrong.

The rewards are what will get them to actually try the game mode that they may or may not enjoy.

You replied as if I was asking how we are supposed to get people who already play WvW to keep playing WvW. No. I am advocating a way to get people who do not already play WvW to give it a try. What thread are you reading, because it’s certainly not this one.

NeHoMaR.9812:

Lahmia.2193:

Maybe I’m a minority here but I’m of the mind that the keep lord should have very little impact on the fight.

As I said, 100% think DBL lords are annoying, don’t let trolls, and people misunderstanding my post, confuse you.

The HoT expansion added all that things to PvE, that’s ok, because on PvE everybody is your ally, you don’t need to worry about 120 players trying to kill you.

I don’t think DBL lords are annoying. I like fighting them way more than the potato lords in ABL and EBG, because I have a working brain and I am not completely undone by a minimal amount of boss mechanics. And I only play WvW. So once again, there goes your “100%” , please don’t make claims based on nothing, it severely weakens your already fragile argument.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I welcome new players who are interrested in the game mode. The rest? Not so much.

Right, but what about players who would be interested, but didn’t think they would be interested in it, and never gave it a chance before. How do we get them to give it a chance, and actually spark that interest?

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

I don’t see why any veteran WvW player would oppose changes to base pips, giving new players a little more incentive to continue with the game mode and hopefully help revitalize it. Our veteran bonuses wouldn’t change, we’d still get rewards faster than the newbies.

If these “veteran” players really don’t care about the rewards like they claim not to, then I don’t see why they’re even posting in this thread to begin with. It seems like they do actually care about rewards, but by golly I don’t think they’ll admit that. Would they?

A question to all WvW players opposing changes to base pips to make it easier on the newcomers: Do you care about WvW rewards more than the WvW game mode?

I am opposed because i dont want wvw to become eotm. If its not something people plan on playing longterm for how does that help wvw? Ppl come in get candy and leave. E.g. Tournaments.

Exactly!

The last thing the game mode needs is more skin scavengers. It is because I care more for the game mode than the reward that I do not want the reward to be more accessible.

I’ve seen what it did with pvp and the ascension. Let’s learn from that. People who don’t care about the game mode won’t stay. If you enjoy WvW, you will stay regardless of the presence of a reward or not.

Do you like having fresh new allies and fresh new meat to kill? Do you not realize that the point of the skins is to get the “scavengers” to try out the game mode? If they enter WvW for the rewards, then leave a day or two later due to the rewards being too difficult – that is not a proper WvW experience. I certainly wouldn’t have gotten a feel for WvW (which is now my only game mode) if I only tried it out for a couple of days.

People grinded out ascension in what, a month? Sure, lets not have that type of thing here in WvW, but there is absolutely no reason that it should take years of reaching for a goal for certain people to reap the benefits. – Yes, I know, we played for years without rewards, but this goal did not exist for us to even reach for at that time.

The people who want the “candy” are going to stay for their “candy” regardless, and if they leave, they leave. There is no predicting that, everyone is different. I saw the most activity and most fun in WvW in a very long time the week this update rolled out. Regardless of skill level, the increased active population was very welcome. You’ll see that there are no more queues, and the population dropped again – possibly due to the daunting requirements/rate of reward. So I ask again:

Do you care about WvW Rewards more than the WvW game mode?

If the answer is no, then please take your irrational opposition to this QoL discussion elsewhere. There are some people in here trying to convince themselves (poorly) that the game mode would become overall less fun if new recruits didn’t have to grind as much as they currently do. – The game mode would be better off without people with that type of mindset, but then again, that’s probably where all the funny salt whispers come from.

Scrappers and Power DH have an advantage over Thieves, if you’re not confident that you can outplay your opponent here, you might as well just avoid the fight.

Burn guardians are pretty much countered by a single trait: [Escapist’s Absolution]
They generally put down purging flames as part of their burst, and crossing the ring counts as an attack upon you, sooo…a simple dodge after seeing purging flames will do the trick – burn guardians don’t have a lot of cover conditions.

Vagrant.7206:

It’s somewhat brazen.

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And if it does, then why are you even here, concerned that Thieves are less and less running away from your profession. Are you concerned that one day the profession will stand toe to toe with scrapper, and the battle outcome will be determined by skill, rather than your profession skills and traits counter an entire other profession?

You posting your thought on this is brazen. :p

This thread wreaks of “I can’t solo kill capture this structure, ANET pls nerf it so I can do something that wasn’t designed for me to do in the first place.”