Guild Wars 2

The outnumbered buff doesn’t say much about how the actual situation on a map looks like. Buffing it without changing how it is applied can create more unfairness than balance. Better a buff that does nothing than one that can make it worse.

Just like cooldowns do …

You are talking as if perma stealth trapper would be the only playable thief build in the game …

Saying that direct dmg on traps nullify a thief’s class mechanic is like saying, cd on other classes weapon skills nullify their ability to use weapon skills …

So backstab works against thief mechanics? Stealth attacks work against thief mechanics?
I know, it was some sort of “fix” to make traps usable, but is it the only possible solution? I doubt it.

[…] and isn’t seen all that much.

That’s the point, right? :p

Stealth as a defensive tool to drop target/reposition applies to all classes, thats not a thief mechanic. Only additional benefits that thieves can gain from stealth are some kind of class mechanic. And just because SA is bad currently, doesn’t mean, revealed is the main issue. There are many reasons.
And again, revealed – be it from dmg dealt or from other classes skills – doesn’t make you unable to gain benefits from stealth in general – it just adds a short cooldown. Regardless of how strong or weak a build is – do you really think, dmg + perma stealth is good design?

Jana.6831:

That’s partly untrue – S/D has got CnD and a stun on Sword if stealthed – I said:

The condi removal on other vanilla lines is subpar to what SA brings – the whole line that’s destroyed by reveal.
And not every thief can make tons of evades work and that’s the only other option to remove condis. Still, burst, stun and so on is tied to stealth even with daredevil. You can make stealthless builds “work” but still thief is built around stealth. And there is nothing on thief without stealth – you can play S/D without using CnD but your thief is weaker than it has to be (an example for a lot of mechanics, it’s not just S/D but every set).

I hope you guys get my point

S/D has stealth access, yes, but it didn’t need that stealth to function, it was just something “nice to have”. Stealth is nice to have for any class/build. Similar is true for current D/P meta build. It needs stealth for backstab, but that’s all. And backstab is by far not as important as in the past for D/P. Shadowshot, Headshot (Pulmonary Impact) and autoattacks are often better options.

And again – even builds that rely more on stealth like SA builds shouldn’t need to sit in stealth permanently. Revealed is basically nothing but a short cooldown. If you are revealed and can’t clear condis because of it, it is like having condi remove skills on cd. Same for burst, cc and so on. It is not only revealed, that destroyed many thief builds (like your d/d build). It is not even the main issue.

Jana.6831:

Condi remov, regen, burst, stun is tied to stealth – that is true for all vanilla builds. You can bypass that when going daredevil but still a lot of the mechanics only work with stealth. Engi and ranger reveal are more than a few seconds and they can hit as hard as a thief and have (multiple) invulnerabilities – it was a very stupid move to bring that stuff into game.

ETA: No idea about rev reveal haven’t been hit by that for a while.

I never said, stealth is not important for many thief builds, but that doesn’t make it their main class mechanic. Even in the past not all strong thief builds were relying on stealth (old s/d for example – now daredevil has kinda replaced acro as non-stealth survival line).
And even stealth heavy builds shouldn’t have to stay in stealth permanently to be somewhat playable. Now i’m aware that adding direct dmg to traps would make trap thief even worse than it is now, that’s why i suggested buffs to traps in return. Trap thief doesn’t need any nerfs, just changes to the imo stupid design.

With “a few seconds of reveal” i was referring to the 3 seconds that would come from traps with added direct dmg, not to reveal skills from other classes (i wouldn’t call the 5/6 seconds from those skills an eternity though).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

So saying stealth is not one of Thieves main mechanics is very disingenuous, right now with Daredevil being one of the best options it removes SA from being chosen since Evades are better survivability than stealth.

There is a difference between the main mechanic and one of the mechanics. And as you even state yourself, meta daredevil relies more on evades (and blind/cc) than stealth. Of course stealth is still part of the build, but that doesn’t make it the most important part.

And yes, there are worse builds out there than trap thief, but we can still discuss about certain build designs that might be problematic, right? Btw, personally i can usually deal with trap thieves just fine, and i wasn’t suggesting straight nerfs, just changes, which might even end up as buffs, who knows?

They don’t have to be bad players to get killed by this build. Sometimes it is just a matter of not being familiar with this kind of playstyle and not expecting the burst. If it would be more common, players would lern how to counter it – and pretty much all meta builds should have the tools to deal with this build.

Stealth is not thieves main mechanic (not all thief builds rely on stealth) and every thief should be able to handle a few seconds of revealed every now and then. And even though i wouldn’t call the “ghost thief” op, i think, being able to deal dmg while staying permanently stealth is terrible design and should be changed. And since it is an (trap) thief only issue, changes should affect only this build. Adding direct dmg to those traps and buffing them in some way (more dmg and/or utility), so a trap thief doesn’t rely on perma stealth, would be my solution.

With mobility, stealth, cc, evades … druids have enough tools to avoid getting locked down or condi bombed when key skills are on cd. I’m not saying, druids are immortal – well timed cc + burst, both power or condi, can definitly kill them. But there is no real hard counter (unless outnumbering of course), you pretty much have to outplay them to win 1vs1. (Also shouts doesn’t neccessarily mean “full shouts”. Heal + elite are usually enough to keep the regen going.)

Rotteny.8743:

I can’t belive you took that bait… It’s clear he’s trolling.

Considering his usual posts about druid, it was hard to tell (and i answered before he added his “buff suggestions” which made it more clear).

Jim Hunter.6821:

Also means the only condi removal they are running is druidic clarity and maybe SoR which has a 60 sec cooldown. So basically they are a free bag to everyone but a pure power build that doesn’t know how to CC.

Druidic Clarity is a very powerful cleanse though, if specced for frequent CA access. Common druid builds are not weak vs condi builds nor free bags in general (unless played bad of course).

Swagger.1459:

And I was just eaten alive by a condition necro even with max condition clear on my Druid… So nerf op necros plz

Druid counters necro. If you die to one 1vs1 it is an issue with your build or your playstyle (or both).

I wouldn’t recommend Smokescale and Bristleback for somebody who hasn’t got HoT – because he can’t use them :p. I also wouldn’t suggest Brown Bear (or any other bear). Those survival skills should be enough condi clear for a LB build that relies on kiting and avoiding dmg anyways. And most condi builds tend to be easy to kite, so you shouldn’t need tons of condi remove.
I actually tried the brown bear on a full glass lb build (MM/SK/BM) once. No condi remove outside of SoR, so i thought, the bear could be a decent addition to my wolf (and of course because “Bear Bow” is cult). But i figured out quite fast that additional CC and dmg from the hound would help me much more to kill stuff, even condi builds. The faster they die, the less chance they get to load me with condis. So hound + wolf are definitely my favoured pet suggestions for a build like this.

The condi hate becomes more ridiculous every day …
Maybe you should try druid and /laugh at most condi builds (to be not completely off-tpic).

cgMatt.5162:

The problem, I think, is that damage kills faster than stomping unless Search & Rescue or Gyro resurrection is happening, in which case it might be better to stomp with invulnerability when a Scrapper or Druid is present, though not many Druids run it since it’s been nerfed. The problem now seems to be that the res is too fast and uninterruptible.

If there is a ressing scrapper or druid (many still run the res trait), you have to cleave, because you can’t complete the stomp before the downed target gets up, unless there are others cleaving. Cleave is the only way to (eventually) prevent those rezzes.

It would hurt every ranger who doesn’t use staff. There is more than enough projectile hate in the game. Staff 5 doesn’t need buffs, nor does the weapon as a whole. Nobody said, staff 2 or 4 shouldn’t be improved. But significant improvements to these skills should come with some (reasonable) trade-offs, because making an already powerful weapon even stronger doesn’t improve balance. I 100% agree with LughLongArm in this regard.

anduriell.6280:

Oh come on guys… Seriuosly? You realize that is very easy to show you how deepply wrong you are right? […]

Sometimes i wonder if you even play the game …

The dmg coefficient for Solar Beam is per pulse, the coefficient for Spartial Surge applies to the whole attack.

According to the wiki, mesmer’s GS autoattack has a dmg coefficient of 0,54 every 1,4s at close range and 0,945 at >900 range.
Staff has a coefficient of 3x 0,36 = 1,08 every 1,35s at any range.

So Solar Beam has actually higher dmg than Spartial Surge. If you don’t belive me, just go ingame and test it (which i already did – never trust the wiki without ingame confirmation).

And no, Staff 3 into Staff 5 is definitely not a “bad heal”. Overall the weapon has great utility, even if comes mostly from staff 3. Staff could need some changes to make it less focused on 11111 and occasional 3, but it doesn’t need straight buffs.

anduriell.6280:

The damage with the solar beam in zerk is around 400 no crits. It is the lowest damage in game, in perspective the mesmer GS has the same beam properties and does much more damage.

Solar Beam’s dmg is similar to mesmer’s GS autoattack at >900 range and significantly higher at close range. While i wouldn’t consider staff a good dps weapon as a whole, because it obviously lacks dmg outside of the autoattack, the dmg of Solar Beam itself is indeed pretty good, considering the lack of counters and the defensive nature of the weapon (Staff is not supposed to be a top dps weapon after all).

I often played druid with Druidic Clarity as only condi clear(sometimes SoR in addition – only against very condi heavy teams though) – and that was enough to deal with most condi builds. Getting +1’ed by a thief or rev was the most common reason for my deaths, not condis. And that was last season, where i encountered much more condi builds than this season (haven’t played much PvP lately though) .
Ever tried to not facetank everything? It is not always a build issue …

Off-topic, but:

Selfish condi ranger is capable of doing about 30k dps fully buffed which is significantly higher than the dps of the support oriented meta build shown in the test (and probably not worst dps of all classes). Still completely irrelevant for this discussion.

PvE dps is meanigless for WvW/PvP and those tests compare PvE meta builds and not max dps builds (which isn’t the same in case of ranger).

Jana.6831:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

4-5k mauls (without extra buffs) means glass vs glass, which isn’t very realistic in zerg fights (especially not in the frontline). 2-3k crits would be closer to reality.

Go soldier’s with rune of the pack.

To enjoy 1-2k hits? I prefer a zerk/valk/cav setup, which has better dmg than full soldier and without OS maul rarely hits for more than 3k unless the target is glass and has some vuln stacks on it.
You are right that ranger isn’t designed for zerg fights – and the pet mechanic + the resulting low weapon dmg is one reason. Doesn’t mean, ranger needs more dmg – it would be unbalanced for 1vs1/small scale fights of course, where at least a few pets can be usefull.

Jana.6831:

Even 4-5k on 5 enemies every 5-6 seconds isn’t too bad and I guess most people in a zerg don’t do more than that.

4-5k mauls (without opening strike/MoC) means glass vs glass, which isn’t very realistic in zerg fights (especially not in the frontline). 2-3k crits would be closer to reality.

Jeknar.6184:

I disagree… Druid still pretty strong in small scale skirmishes as pets take reduced damage from AoE skills. Sure they will insta die when there are 40 people kittenting AoE all over, but you hardly see a pet die in a 5v5 for exemple unless the ranger is a complete idiot (common ocurrance, honestly) and isn’t using pet swap to take the best out of the two pets and related traits.

Reduced aoe dmg only applies to PvE. Pets take the full dmg in WvW. It is still possible to keep tanky pets alive in small scale fights, as long they don’t get focused, but in general there is little a ranger can do to protect the pets.

Jana.6831:

Let me rephrase this: You lack AoE damage for zergs – I think the pet is the lesser problem.

Even if ranger had more aoe options, it would be still less dmg output than other classes – because of the pets. Having the whole class mechanic rendered useless will always remain a problem for rangers in large scale combat.

Gotejjeken.1267:

I like taking druids out when I roam. Core Ranger is way more viable than ever, just have to leave the zerg.

I mean, Druid is a traitline…nothing more. Not saying it’s useless, but it certainly isn’t absolutely necessary.

I wouldn’t call core ranger more viable than ever. Sure, it is possible to win against druids and other elite specs with core builds (and tbh – most druids in wvw are terrible players with terrible builds – it is not even hard to kill most of them). But druids (with proper builds) should definitely have the advantage. Yes, it is only one traitline, but it offers a huge survivability boost, which you can’t really compensate with core traitlines only. Of course core ranger is still playable (i play it myself), but “elite” traitlines got their name rightly.

It’s 12s stab on 48s cd if traited (with 0 boon duration) – and every meta druid runs traited shouts. SotP is by far ranger’s best elite for most PvP/WvW builds.

I hate fighting (meta) scrapper the most. Too many passives, defensive skills and boons. The only thing, that makes them bearable is the fact that i don’t have to fight them, because they lack ranged pressure and chasing potential. Unfortunately many other common builds are not very fun to fight for similar reasons – passives and (defensive) boons. Most condi builds counter my own build, so those are not my favourite matchups either, but it is mostly because of my own build, not because i dislike condis in general (I definitely prefer condi engi over the typical power scrapper).

I like fighting (mostly) thieves, mesmers, to some extent warriors and (non-retri) revs, and some rare “non-meta” builds of other classes.

Why would you even build an arrowcart or other defensive siege, if the enemy siege is invulnerable anyway?

They can remove the boon copy mechanic, but healing of base ranger shouldn’t get nerfed.

Certain druid builds are probably the strongest builds for 1vs1 right now (ranger has been one of the top duelling classes for quite a while now btw, even pre HoT), but if somebody wins 1vs3 or more, it is more a player issue than a class/build issue. No build is capable of reliably winning outnumbered fight against halfway decent enemies. Winning outnumbered fights is always a matter of bad opponents and shouldn’t be base for balancing discussions. Is druid too strong in 1vs1/roaming? Maybe. But on the other hand it is not that great in large scale fights and there has to be at least one thing a class is good at, right?

Other fast movement skills like … Infiltrator’s Arrow?

Btw, Ancestral Grace has 15s cd untraited not 12s, and almost nobody uses the staff trait, because Druidic Clarity is kinda mandatory. Unlike most other “fast movement skills” it is not a teleport. Mobilitywise it is compareable to Swoop and nobody complains about GS ranger, right?

Depending on how exactly such “pet stat scaling” would look like, it would be either a huge buff or it would make ranger in general (not only druid) unplayable, as long rangers rely on the pets as a class mechanic. You can’t balance dumb AI and a player controlled character arround the same stats.

Btw, most good roaming druids use mostly offensive stats and are only “tanky” due to traits/skills/boons. So stat scaling might end up with even more dmg from the pets, which don’t even have that much dmg after multiple nerfs. They are just able to hit targets, that don’t actively try to avoid the pets dmg.

Stomping 3 players every 5 minutes grants more points than a keep. Add killed dollys and flipped camps, maybe even some towers and a single player or a small group can definitely make more points than a blob, especially if said blob does nothing but running in circles, flipping undefended paper towers (which can be done faster by smaller groups). Blobs are usually not very efficient when it comes to points.

Druid is not the class that forces others to run tanky builds, nor is the healing a reason, why fights became so boring and skilless. The healing is actually very clunky. Trying to heal allies in soloQ (= trying to “hit” them with tiny delayed aoes while they run arround like scared chicken) requires more “skill” than killing enemys with most classes.

You totally miss my point. None of the things you mentioned offer long lasting immunity with close to 0 counters. Resistance would be fine, if it would be something like SoS or EP or like the old berserker stance. Single target, long cd, fix duration. But as a boon it can be extended, stacked and shared, which can lead to ridiculous durations. Yes, it can be removed, but there is by far not enouh boon remove in the game (and it is limited to a few classes).
Don’t tell me it is the same with condis vs cleanses – it is not even close (And condi appliation doesn’t go through blocks or anything else that prevents you from getting hit – unless it is an unblockable attack, but then power goes through blocks too).

Let’s buff protection to be 100% dmg immunity too. Shouldn’t be an issue, because long lasting immunities are totally fine and there is enough counterplay to boons anyway, right?

(Usually i don’t run with zergs, but i did a few times lately and never died to condis. Not even once. And i had no resistance and there was not much aoe cleanse going on, because it was just uncoordinated pug zergs. I have also tried condi necro and power necro and the power variant dealt a lot more dmg.)

What condi skill(s) can kill a player in 2 seconds?

Burn guard and burn engi can maybe kill zerk eles or thieves that fast, but those burn burst builds aren’t viable, same for builds with 11k hp. So is there a realistic situation where a condi builds kills in 2 seconds? Or is it just the usual exaggeration?

WvW is not only about zerging, don’t mix those things up.

I guess, they just roll the dice to decide about what and how things get changed. At least that’s the only explanation i can think of, if i look at many changes since HoT.

Druid is not weak vs condis. Especially in wvw, where it is easy to avoid most condi dmg via kiting while killing those slow condi builds from range (preferable with lb), a proper build and played druid should be able to kill or at least survive vs all condi builds in 1vs1.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Power creep is not really an issue so long as it is the core classes that are buffed in said manner. And limiting build diversity? Not really.. I mean, please, go on to explain further. I’m open to the possibility of just being completely ignorant to whatever other factors that you might be seeing.

The problem with powercreep is, that it reduces counterplay and requires counterbuilding. The stronger traits and skills are, the less important player skill becomes. It forces you to take certain traits and skill and there is no way you can create a working build with different traits and skills. That’s why it limits diversity and creates unfun fights that are desided more by build than by player actions.

And that’s especially true for resistance, which gives 100% immunity. It is compareable to things like endure pain and signet of stone, stuff that has short duration and long cd for good reasons. There is no way a condi build would be able to win by outplaying a resistance spamming build without massive boon removal. It wouldn’t open up more options, you won’t be able to not choose the boon remove if you want a working build.
Now i get that this is what you want to achieve – forcing condi builds to take the boon remove instead of defense. And then all condibuilds would end up like builds, that already have to give up (too much) defense – builds like condi engi or trap ranger for example – they won’t be viable anymore. A certain amount of defense is absolutely mandatory, especially for condi builds which can’t burst as well as power builds. And the meta condi builds are not really bunkers and already have less sustain than for example scrapper or druid.

Now i would agree that for example condi warrior has too much sustain and dmg in one build. But this can be fixed by nerfing the particular build. The same applies to everything op. You don’t have to screw up a whole mechanic and tons of weak builds, to tone down a few overperforming things.

I don’t really care, if meta builds get nerfed. Actually i would like to see a lot of things nerfed – including some condi builds of course. But all those “nerf condi threads” doesn’t focus on some actual op things, they basically suggest to make condi builds absolute garbage in general, often based on completely false assumptions (like this nonsense about non-existent condi remove on meta builds or all those unblockable/unevadeable condis). And even though i usually don’t play condi myself, i like to experiment and try out “unusual” builds, which of course includes condi and hybrid builds. And i don’t want those unviable builds to become even worse, that’s pretty much the only reason, why i keep defending condis in threads like this.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Oh, it completely does. Go on, try vipers or rampagers and let me know how it feels to get melted without the 900 toughness.

Actually i already tried viper necro and viper/rampager ranger and yes, it sucks. Rabid ranger sucks too btw. I also played marauder druid a lot and guess what? No extra toughness, but tons of defensive skills and traits and some extra vitality, so overall pretty decent survivability and the dmg wasn’t that bad either.

I never said, toughness does nothing, i said, toughness alone doesn’t do much, which is true. Otherwise everyone would take high toughness amulets with offensive traits instead of marauder with defensive traits. Traits and skills matter much more.

About your suggestion – buffing access to resistance and boon removal adds just more powercreep and limits build diversity even more – the last thing, the game needs.

Lucred.1802:

—any extra, basically unavoidable damage is too much damage when it’s so easy to apply (such as dropping signets and scepter2 in a team fight on point, considering how large they are and how the longest cooldown is ~8 seconds with most of them 4-5 seconds).

All common builds can easily apply dmg. Scrapper for example can just spam hammer 1-5 on point and deal more dmg than necro with marks.

Lucred.1802:

-and the firefield from warrior isn’t hard to avoid
Unless you’re in a team fight. It’s pretty big, though admittedly not as big as a necro mark or DH trap.

The firefield is bigger than traps or marks, which makes it easy to see and easy to step outside of it.

Lucred.1802:

-full bunker DH isn’t going to be doing noticeable damage
Bull. Just straight bull. It’s not going to be immediately lethal like a power DH, but when their traps are on low cooldowns and cover an entire point, and it takes so ridiculously long to kill a bunker (any bunker), dropping them in a team fight is all they seem to do—run around crapping traps.

1. If you die to bunker dh you are doing something wrong.
2. DH traps deal only power dmg, so i don’t get what it has to do with this discussion about condis.

Lucred.1802:

Herald has NO condi removal in current meta.

1 condition removed on legend swap (10s cd) and 2 condis removed with staff 4 (15s cd). Soft CC remove in Shiro form.

Lucred.1802:

Warrior has NO condi removal in current meta.

3 condis removed on burst skill use/hit every few seconds and 1 condi removed every weapon swap (5s cd) + high access to resistance. Warrior has great condi defense.

Lucred.1802:

Tempest has (I think) pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) no on-demand cleanse.

1 condi everytime they get hit above 75% health (1s cd)), 1 condi with every shout, 3 condis with focus 3 (16s cd), eventually 1 condi when they gain regen – i probably forgot something. Tempest has a lot of condi remove, not only for himself but also for allies.

Lucred.1802:

Druid has pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) and I think they have 1 on-demand cleanse, unsure of cooldown

1 condition every 10s from signet (potential aoe full cear if used active, long cd though and can kill the pet), full clear every 12-15 seconds with druidic clarity, some more with seed of live.

Lucred.1802:

Thief has NO condi removal in current meta.

Shadowstep (3 condis, 50s cd), Signet of Agility (30c cd), Soft CC remove on dodge. If necessary they could take a trait that removes 1 condi everytime they evade an attack (1s cd), they just don’t need it.

Lucred.1802:

Scrapper has ONE cleanse (all conditions) on a 40 second cooldown.

Scrapper has cleanse on elixier use (and they use a lot of elixier skills, most with less than 20s cd), passive condi convertion every 15s, cleanse on heal skill, and possibly 20% reduced condi dmg from trait. Overall not bad.

Lucred.1802:

DH has ONE cleanse (2 conditions) on a 20 second cooldown.

DPS dh removes 2 condis from meditation every 16s, 2 every heal skill use, 2 from virtue (26s cd). Not sure about bunker dh, but i guess, it has more condi remove.

Lucred.1802:

I have no idea what chrono has, I won’t ever play one.

Removes condis on shatter and heal skill.

Lucred.1802:

edit
Forgot to address warrior’s Pin Down.
I play one. A lot. I routinely see Pin Down’s bleeds ticking for 1000-1200 in actual combat. If you’re seeing it do 600, you must fight a lot of people with protection on and you’re buffless.

Here’s a screenshot of me attacking the target golem with NO buffs on me and NO debuffs on it. Add might on me and vuln on the target and it’s going to go up, a LOT.

Protection doesn’t do anything againt condis. Of course might and vuln can increase the dmg, but more than 1k is very unlikely, 2k as you have stated impossible. Your screenshot says 573 btw, so even less than those 600. Pin Down is balanced. I already said why.

Tbh you have very little knowlegde about the game and should definitely learn before making suggestions about how to balance the game.

Yea, lets add even more (passive) defense and sustain, bunkers aren’t strong enough :/

Maybe we should just remove the abilitiy to deal any dmg at all, so nobody has to die …

Your whole post is based on a false assumption. How hard or easy a build is to play has absolutely nothing to do with power or condi.

If you want something changed, maybe start providing reasonable arguments instead of the same wrong arguments over and over again.

So many false statements …

Lucred.1802:

Not to mention how many of the really nasty condi’s are ground-targeted AoE.

Necro’s marks and scepter 2, warrior lb burst skill … that’s all. Marks don’t deal that much dmg anymore after chill nerf and the firefield from warrior isn’t too hard to avoid.

Lucred.1802:

Or a full-bunker DH running through a team fight crapping traps everywhere. Or a trap ranger doing the same. Condi is both as damaging as power, and capable of 5-person aoe, and is generally able to be used from a safe(ish) distance instead of melee range.

A full bunker dh isn’t going to do any mentionable dmg at all. If dh traps hurt, it is a power dps build. Traps are not ranged/ground-targeted btw. Trap ranger is even less viable than power dh – for good reasons.

Lucred.1802:

And then when you consider how few condi cleanses there are and how many of them are on long (20sec+) cooldowns compared to blocks/reflects (since the ground targeted aoe ignores reflect and at least some of the blocks)….I hope I’m making my point.

Most classes have frequent access to condi cleanse, not only every 20 seconds. And you don’t have to cleanse all condis, nor are you supposed to be able to do so. Also ground targeted aoe is not the main source of condis.

Lucred.1802:

As an example of how powerful condi is (yes this is cherry-picking): Warrior’s bow skill Pin Down—approximately 600 direct damage (non-crit) but applies 6 stacks of bleed, which then tick (6 stacks combined) for 2k, and with the current meta build lasts for 12 seconds. 1 skill that will do approximately 1/6th-1/8th of a player’s health per second (considering most pvp builds have between 13k and 18k health) or 24k over its full duration, cannot be blocked or dodged once applied, and is on a relatively short cooldown. Guaranteed kill if not cleansed from 1 ability. Also persists through downing, so it can both down and kill in 1 application. Find me any power-based attack that doesn’t require extensive setup (thus discounting GS power warr or mesmer shatters) that’s that powerful.

6 stacks of bleeds are ticking for about 600/s, not 2k. On wanderer/krait setup the total dmg is about 12k (more with might/vuln, but definitely not 24k, less with rabid or carrion amulet or a different rune). It will take 22s to deal that much dmg from this single skill. More than enough time to heal or cleanse. It has 25s cd which is quite long compared to many other important dmg skills and it has a distinctive animation and reasonable casttime, which makes it not that hard to dodge/block/evade/reflect or blind it. And if you get hit you can still cleanse.

An afk zerk ele or thief is the only think you can kill with Pin Down alone.

I could understand complaints about Skull Grinder, but Pin Down is a pretty balanced skill and a good example of how skills should be. Powerful, but with reasonable counterplay.

Shala.8352:

The reason revenants prefer to play power rather than condi is that the condi side has less evades/stun breaks/mobility. Revenant is only class that if going for condi, has to go full melee and lose all his mobility.

Similar is actually true for other classes too, not only for rev. Condi engi loses the defensive skills from hammer, condi ranger loses mobility and/or ranged dmg, condi warrior loses mobility – just some examples.

Then why do (meta) scrapper don’t play condi? Or druid? Or dh? Or rev? If skills and traits doesn’t matter and condis are superior in general because of stats …

900 toughness alone does barely anything without defensive traits and utilities. Lack of vitality can be an issue too (there is no marauder equivalent for condi builds).

I like to take trap ranger as example. For reasonable dmg output he has to invest into an offensive traitline and offensive utilities which results in much less overall defense than something like a marauder druid, who takes only defensive traitlines and utilities, even if the trap ranger has higher defensive stats from the amulet. Trap ranger is a condi build, yet far from viable. Being condi doesn’t make a build automatically good. It’s not the condis in general, that are an issue.

Or look at scrapper, who has sustain like a bunker, even with an offensive amulet. All from traits and skills.

Also keep in mind, condi builds don’t only lose less dmg with tankier amulets, this also means, they gain less dmg than power builds by going full glass, especially when it comes to burst dmg. In most cases zerk would be superior to sinister due to much better burst dmg.

Can you belive warrior has always been able to deal dmg by dodging?

Btw, i can’t understand why ppl want to nerf the only few counters to the ridiculous sustain and boon spam (mostly passive btw, much more than any condi application) thats dominating the meta …
Nerfing condis won’t suddenly create a “skillfull” power meta. Condi builds are NOT what keeps many power builds out of the meta. Passives, boons and spammable defenses are what makes “skillfull or high risk” builds useless and thats true for both condi and power.

Skilled rangers have never been free kills in WvW.

Core ranger and especially core pets are already pretty useless and you want to nerf them without any compensation? Just … why?