Guild Wars 2

Sir Arthur.8905:

We could use either the home instance or future housing areas to direct players to open world npcs that can give information on where to go, what is active, and how to start the event chains.

This will give players a common, easily accessible place to find information and be sent to a gathering place in the open world, where you still get to be around and interact with other players to accomplish the actual event.

More detailed explanation on how this could work in this earlier forum post about home instance NPCs and how they can be used to help distribute people into the world and give context to existing dynamic events:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/story/Home-Instances-and-Daily-Dynamic-events/first#post3328719

Hey, you know… this isn’t a bad idea to run with. Imagine popping into your home instance to mine the nodes and Zojja is there waiting for you with something she needs your help with… could be randomly generated and maybe give you access to an unlock that you could also get elsewhere. Would be a nice kick into the personal story chain from a racial perspective (where the Orders could kick you into the personal story from a selected Order perspective).

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Sirendor.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harper.4173:

VOLKON.1290:

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

I was there on BWE 1 – and I don’t remember any of this. The mobs were sort of like they are today. I powered through the content like there was no tomorrow.

Metrica Province Fire Elemental.

Utterly LETHAL early on but the longer it went on the more people understood “don’t stand in the red rings” and “DO NOT REVIVE ON THE BRIDGE!” . . . still got hit with a nerf stick at least once.

Some got hit by the nerf stick, some didn’t. Most content was easy to me in betas already. I guess only solution is… to go play a new game whose mechanics I didn’t master yet, since judging by responses here everyone is just fine with how easy and skill-less this game’s combat is. sigh

Well, you have two solutions. Go to another game, as you mention, or get into a WvW guild, run some organized WvW and learn how mistaken you are about the combat system and mechanics. It makes a huge difference going against actual players.

…,not really. Its actually kind of easy in WvW. I can bring down most players without any effort using the longbow’s autoattack, especially with the amount of passive traits that increases your damage that Rangers have access to.

My mesmer raises a curious eyebrow and looks forwards to collecting the loot bags off of your corpse.

Chrispy.5641:

But, it would still be a problem when you are wandering around aimlessly, and you have no idea where you need to go to learn a specific skill, so something still needs to be put in there to announce that an event like that is there.

Hearts were an improvement that helped to bring us out of the Dark ages of MMO’s, because, while they are Static points on the map, They are still starting points that we can go to and do events from there (most events spawn within the distance of a Heart)

I agree that hearts were an improvement over the archaic static quests, and events are an improvement over them both. I just personally think more hearts or heart like substances really wouldn’t be needed (there are other means of broadcast in a zone, from map announcements to adding information to the existing scouts on the map and having them guide you) and would only add clutter to the map.

Personally I’d rather see something more fluid than a simple “Go to heart for unlock” thing. That doesn’t really add any life to the game… it becomes a run from one point to the next. People would be done in no time then looking for more and complaining when there isn’t more ready.

Sirendor.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harper.4173:

VOLKON.1290:

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

I was there on BWE 1 – and I don’t remember any of this. The mobs were sort of like they are today. I powered through the content like there was no tomorrow.

Metrica Province Fire Elemental.

Utterly LETHAL early on but the longer it went on the more people understood “don’t stand in the red rings” and “DO NOT REVIVE ON THE BRIDGE!” . . . still got hit with a nerf stick at least once.

Some got hit by the nerf stick, some didn’t. Most content was easy to me in betas already. I guess only solution is… to go play a new game whose mechanics I didn’t master yet, since judging by responses here everyone is just fine with how easy and skill-less this game’s combat is. sigh

Well, you have two solutions. Go to another game, as you mention, or get into a WvW guild, run some organized WvW and learn how mistaken you are about the combat system and mechanics. It makes a huge difference going against actual players.

Aveneo.2068:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I also don’t like the idea of more hearts. Anet tries to get rid of them (see: high level zones) because they are just static quests.

To my knowledge they were actually added so that people would be able to go to these known ‘quests’ in order to explore the world and stumble across dynamic events along the way.

Not having them in Orr has nothing to do with wild claims that ANet is trying to ‘get rid of them’ so kindly stop spreading misinformation as this is simply not true.

The game originally didn’t have hearts from what they said. However people wandered about not knowing they were supposed to join in on events, so hearts were added to help train people to do events. I think we’ve evolved enough from the dark ages of MMOs that we can do without more hearts.

Harper.4173:

VOLKON.1290:

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

I was there on BWE 1 – and I don’t remember any of this. The mobs were sort of like they are today. I powered through the content like there was no tomorrow.

May have been before the first open beta then, it’s all a bit fuzzy. But it was beautiful. Absolutely a blast.

ColinJohanson.2394:

VOLKON.1290:

You could even throw out in the PvE world random Champions that enter the world from one side, simply walk across and out the other if they’re not defeated. It would be up to the players to recognize, band together and defeat this champion to get an unlock that way. Don’t announce it, just have it happen.

So an open question: If you don’t announce it, how do players who want to progress their character down these new paths of exciting character progression know what to do it, or how to progress? We’ve seen if the path of progression isn’t relatively clear, most our every-day casual players won’t bother doing it, which isn’t a system that buys us much game play over-all.

And if the champion isn’t available, how do we message to players that the system of progression to advance their character isn’t available at this time? I think you can get away with no real messaging around something like a rare skin, but if it’s a system that expands your characters profession diversity it needs much clearer communication.

These are the kind of questions I ask the designers coming up with the systems we’ll use in the future, so it’s a fun opportunity for you guys as well

Well, my first inclination is to not announce it, just announce the fact that it happens and allow the community to go out and find it. However, I can see where that may result in some champions being missed (Is that really a bad thing? To be decided.)

Another thought could be an announcement in whatever zone the champion is currently passing through, something subtle like “An mysterious presence has been felt in the area”. Just an in-zone clue that should get people in the zone curious enough to look.

Then of course, if that proves insufficient, there are the Scarlett type of world announcements, but personally I think that would take too much of the mystery out of it.

I don’t think you announce the lack of presence… my initial thoughts were that the champion is crossing from one zone to another and on, eventually there will be someone finding it and alerting others (make it tough enough that people will need help). If it were, for example, a less subtle large-sized champion (giant, small dragon, wandering Asura ego, etc.) then the visual should be quite enough notification in and of itself.

Of course, this lends to the question as to whether or not the champions have individual unlocks of their own or whether or not any of them allow you to unlock an ability of your choice. If the latter, you don’t have someone waiting forever and missing the one champion they want for a specific unlock. If the former then you give the completionists a goal of their own, getting all champions and the associated unlocks. Yeah… this would need to be pondered as well… what are the pros and cons of each champion having their own unlock vs. any champion allowing you the unlock of your choice.

Swagger.1459:

this game has a streamlined and user friendly system to level up and gain skill points. there is absolutely no need to convolute the system or force players to do specific content in one area of the game to progress their character.

However if that specific content is less specific and available through various game play methods… WvW, PvE, etc. then the idea must become more palatable, especially if the sum of all unlocks is greater than the number of unlocks available such that you could eventually get them all in WvW, for example, without having to do other content you find less desirable to you as an individual.

CrossedHorse.4261:

VOLKON.1290:

CrossedHorse.4261:

VOLKON.1290:

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

Thing is, I don’t think those mobs have changed that much – we’ve just all got used to how things work so it’s easier now. Reports seem to be that new players are still struggling with them.

I also don’t really see why people who run zerk and just spam 1 are complaining all that much. Yes, you can do that, but then you are the master of your own boredom. Nobody else who doesn’t do that finds things too easy or complains about it. No, I’m not saying things couldn’t be tweaked a little, but I do think that if all you want to do is spam 1 in zerk because that’s the fastest way to do it, then you only have yourself to blame for being bored. I rarely do that, I enjoy using all my skills and working out different combinations that work etc, and I don’t find the combat a faceroll. Maybe that’s just me.

By the way, just to clarify, that last paragraph was not in direct relation to Volkon’s post – don’t want you to think I’m attacking you!

Oh no, they changed a lot. They were really softened up quite a bit. The next time in it was extremely noticeable how much easier they’d become.

Huh, ok. I guess I joined too late to see that, in that case. Still, newer players are still finding things challenging until they get used to it, so I guess my point is still relevant, if slightly less so.

Yeah, definitely a good point… perhaps difficulty scaling should increase at a greater rate then through the zones, with Champions getting boosted in all zones (added minions, skills, difficulty) then so that the early stages work well to get the feel of combat but champions will still take a degree of knowledge and skill and later zones require to you learn combat more thoroughly in order to have an easier time of it… no more “push 1 to win” above level 30 for example.

ColinJohanson.2394:

What other systems would excite you that don’t fall into the “sitting in front of your keyboard” pressing buttons options? Keep in mind they need to be easy to learn so we can teach them to new players, accessible, and not overly complex/tedious, and hopefully not something with a path of least resistance that leads to degenerate game play.

Well, new personal story arcs could send you off on paths that lead to unlocking something specific from the Order you chose at the beginning of the game (which would add more substance to the Order you choose mattering)… in WvW you could really shake things up by adding the hated “PvE in my WvW” by periodically having boss mobs appear that would drop an unlock to the server getting the killing blows in (but that could be tricky for smaller servers, so careful there… just an idea)… You could even throw out in the PvE world random Champions that enter the world from one side, simply walk across and out the other if they’re not defeated. It would be up to the players to recognize, band together and defeat this champion to get an unlock that way. Don’t announce it, just have it happen.

CrossedHorse.4261:

VOLKON.1290:

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

Thing is, I don’t think those mobs have changed that much – we’ve just all got used to how things work so it’s easier now. Reports seem to be that new players are still struggling with them.

I also don’t really see why people who run zerk and just spam 1 are complaining all that much. Yes, you can do that, but then you are the master of your own boredom. Nobody else who doesn’t do that finds things too easy or complains about it. No, I’m not saying things couldn’t be tweaked a little, but I do think that if all you want to do is spam 1 in zerk because that’s the fastest way to do it, then you only have yourself to blame for being bored. I rarely do that, I enjoy using all my skills and working out different combinations that work etc, and I don’t find the combat a faceroll. Maybe that’s just me.

By the way, just to clarify, that last paragraph was not in direct relation to Volkon’s post – don’t want you to think I’m attacking you!

Oh no, they changed a lot. They were really softened up quite a bit. The next time in it was extremely noticeable how much easier they’d become.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

Ah, I see what you did there. Just don’t ask me what it is because I’m not completely sure.

Unlocking… unlocking would be a wonderful thing. Remember the skill books from GW? (Of course you do, sorry.) Mobs dropping trait or skill unlock books would be one thing that would go over well I suspect. You’d just need to keep balance between various play styles all having relatively equal accessibility to the books (WvW vs PvE vs sPvP vs Fractals for example). If someone spends 90% of their time in WvW, will they have equal (or at least reasonable) access when compared to someone who solely PvEs?

Another way would be through some form of “epic” delivery, for example the Vigil starting you off through a personal story style chain that may take a few players working together to overcome.

There are skill points in the world, there could also be skill/trait points, be they npcs, items, etc. that activate events that must be followed through to completion in order to unlock something (or give you a currency towards unlocking something from the vendor).

I think, personally, that no one thing should be settled on in this regards… having a myriad of ways to unlock them could open up many avenues, new content, etc. and allow options to see what proves the most enjoyable in practice as opposed to theory.

Anyone remember the very first time we got to step foot in Tyria… it was either the first public beta or right before that… the mobs were tough. I never died so many times in the starter zones in any game’s PvE ever, and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. You really had to pay attention, learn the combat, etc in order to survive. I’d love to see that come back… nothing would “fix” the non-broken combat system more than scenarios that require you to use a far greater extent of the combat to survive. Give the mobs more skills, make them tougher, give them abilities that shatter stationary “press 1” zerkers who aren’t paying attention like so many glass butterflies.

Combat is fine. I see combat being quite fine in WvW against thinking targets. We just need more aspects of the game to require you to actually use your skills and do so wisely.

Chrispy.5641:

Oh, I get you now!!!! Except that, no wait, that was exactly what I was talking about for, oh…. the last 30 pages or so, so, why are you arguing with me again?

Oh, and elitism already exists in Dungeons where many (not all) groups require a Ranger to run Spotter and Frost spirit, or they are ‘useles’, so everything you fear, just like Specialization, is in the game already. You can run from it, but it will outrun you

I think you started it. I was simply pointing out concerns that sub-classes have the risk of adding specializations when what would fit the combat as a whole was greater diversities and depth instead. And yes, there are those that seem to require (unnecessarily) professions to be ‘this’ or ‘that’, but those individuals are pretty much a pox within the game and should not be further encouraged.

DiogoSilva.7089:

VOLKON.1290:

If an elementalist suddenly gets a sub-class that is more proficient at group healing guess what everyone is going to demand from the ele’s in their group… yep. A signet build with an additional signet doesn’t become more specialized in a role simply for having another signet. The new signet can easily add a balance of damage, control and/or support and avoid specialization altogether.

Elementalists have already gotten more proficient at group healing with the new Arcane Brilliance’s blast-finisher heal skill. So as you can see, new skills can and will make roles more efficient.

If that’s the case and if ANet sees players being forced into roles due to the skills, then the skills should be addressed to remove that pigeon-holing instead of the system being modified to push it further. If that skill (I have no idea if true or not) is forcing elementalists into more dedicated roles then the skill should be changed to reintroduce player flexibility to the profession.

Mireles Lore.5942:

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Pretty much this exactly. When you hit 80 you can very easily slip on a whole set of exotics and take on the world quite well, and you have the option if you wish to spend the time and efforts to go for ascended. As long as ascended doesn’t get overshadowed by a “higher” power tier you’ll never have the treadmill. Let Legendary armors come, and let them have the same stats as ascended, other features (switch on the fly stats for example) and take longer to get… that would be wonderful and completely against the treadmill philosophy due to it being a choice instead of a requirement for progression.

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

Except, thats the same build that other players have been running for the last year. It doesn’t matter that you finally decided to change your build. Other players have many times changed their style of gameplay, but the end result is still “Deal more damage than the other guy”. Its still Stagnant. Its still Pungent. It still smells like the soda you left on the counter a week ago, and now its fermenting. Seriously, your differennce in gameplay that you just described is the same as the difference between Coke, Pepsi, and Offbrand cola. They are all still cola, and no one is going to care that you drink off brand instead of a different version.

I have 8 total armor sets now for my ranger, and I have went through hundreds of combinations, but, according to the forums, and my own experience, nothing beats brain dead Zerker mode. The Weapon combination and Trait combination does not matter, the fact is, is that your goal is to still do more damage than the other guy (NPC, boss, whatever), and there is no layer of strategy or tactics under that, because everyone has been using the same strategy for over a year.

Hey, if you want to run the same builds that every other player has been running for over a year, and call that good, go on ahead, but, we still need more build diversity, regardless of whether you finally decided to change your build or not.

I don’t know if it’s the same build others have run or not… I didn’t check. And no… it’s not about dealing more damage with my choices, it’s about helping the group out more and winning the fights as a team. Individually I’ve noticed that this build isn’t as effective (1v1), however in a group it’s a lot more effective overall. It plays completely differently than the gs/sword-focus build from before.

Again, I’m not against build diversity in the least. More depth to the skills, more balance across d/c/s, more need to learn the intricacies of the skills and gain a knowledge of when a better time to use them is a wonderful thing. However, if a sub-class system winds up pigeon-holing people into more specialized roles that’s a horrible choice. Sub-classes run the risk of leading to specialization, and that leads to elitism and the rejection of perfectly capable players and characters simply because they don’t meet the paradigm of the day.

Imagine a trait where I had the option to pop a feedback bubble to blind or knock down foes in the area? Imagine a trait where grasping earth would, if on a foe that was knocked down, prevent them from getting up a little longer, or perhaps add a bleed or extend the duration of existing conditions? Things like this would add elements to combat that require you to actually consider your skills a little harder and take better advantage of situations at hand. Perhaps it’s better to leave feedback up for the duration, or perhaps the enemy isn’t firing projectiles so feedback can be used in a whole different way. THAT’S the type of trait/skill enhancements we need, not something that has the potential to remove diversity.

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

Except that when I say “Press 1 to Win”, I also mean “Press the exact same keys that you did for the last two years to Win”. Those are the same thing in my book. I could care less if they are in yours. They both require the same pathetic amount of tactics and brain power in order to do, and if you are okay with that, hey, that’s your thing. For everyone else, We want more skills so that way we can actually expand on the ways we play the game instead of doing a mirror image of what we did last year and the year before.

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

By the way, I’m all for expanding traits and even skills. Completely for it! Just… not at the expense of diversity. If it’s done in a way that forces people into artificial roles it’ll be damaging to the game in the sense that there will be a drift away from the “play as you want” or “any profession” paradigm. There are traits already that broaden combat beautifully… for example there are two different mesmer traits that add a confuse and a blind when foes enter a glamour field. This is WONDERFUL! I can use, for example, Feedback on an enemy warrior to support an ally not against projectiles but by blinding (preventing an attack) and adding confusion onto the warrior where before I wouldn’t use feedback at all in that situation. THIS is what we need more of in my opinion… more depth to combat, more means to step out of roles and add greater versatility to combat as well as a need to truly know your skills to get the greatest effect.

Chrispy.5641:

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

Chrispy.5641:

Wait a second! You mean that there is actually strategy in Combat right now outside of “Press 1 to Win!”?

Because not including PvP, what I just said is almost always the case. And besides, I was never talking about Healer in the effect of making it the only role a profession has available to it at that time. However, making Healing Power, etc more effective for people who actually invest in it, instead of very obviously making it and every other stat not scale even half as well as power is a problem, and is the main killer in build diversity right now.

I spend most of my time in WvW, so yes, I see actual strategy in combat right now well outside “press 1 to win”. I’ve yet to see a game where in the PvE zones, especially the lower level ones, “press 1 to win” didn’t apply (and usually to a much greater extent than in GW2). You don’t need to break combat to fix that, you need to grab the mobs by the throat, shake them around a few times until they pay attention, then teach them some new tricks such that “press 1 to win” will no longer apply in PvE. When the first beta opened up, the mobs were tough. I mean, I never died so many times in low level zones in any game as I did then. I loved it, absolutely loved it. I actually had to really learn the combat to survive and move on. If they’d bring that back I’d probably squeal with delight (but never admit it… it’s not manly).

But yeah, combat is deep and requires strategy (against other people at least), and that’s what needs to be enhanced upon as opposed to pigeon-holing characters into specific roles via sub-classes.

Chrispy.5641:

But if any Class is supposed to fill any role, whats the problem with Specialization for any profession to start with? If Anet does it right and actually balances things like that, why would you demand an Elementalist healer over a Guardian, or a Necromancer, or even a Warrior? Seems like a pointless argument to me.

The problem is that classes aren’t meant to fill any role, you’re meant to do your share of all the roles. We all do damage, control and support; we don’t choose to be a damage, control or support build only. Even the skills themselves show this often having multiple aspects tied to them. The problem with specialization is that you would start having the professions getting tied specifically to roles and begin to lose some of the combat dynamics that keep you thinking on your feet and observing the fights around you in order to choose the right skills at the right times for the best effects.

As a matter of fact… Chris, how about the possibility of new skills, when added, providing more nuance to them such that simply casting them when off cool down really isn’t the most efficient way to do so (such as most skills already are). I’d like to see skills have greater conditional effects, such as (as a quick example) casting skill “A” on an opponent causes damage and applies a condition or three, yet if you cast the skill on the opponent when he already has conditions you get added effects, such as a boon on yourself or the length of the existing conditions increased. Things that make you look at the depth of the skills more and get you to be more selective in using them. If I cast Chaos Storm, for example, on opponents when they’re knocked down perhaps it takes them longer to get back up or adds an extended confusion. Things of this nature.

Chrispy.5641:

The problem with Specialization, is that its going to happen, no matter your objection to it, even if Subclasses was never a factor. Now, It was kind of fun to entertain the idea of subclasses, but consider this :: a class that doesn’t have an Elite Signet skill, or healing signet skill suddenly gets one. Well, guess what, that just made your signet build more specialized than it was before, and that dark and dangerous path of Required builds ends up getting taken anyways.

Adding more skills to the game (even as a form of Horizontal progression by adding new weapon skills or any skill really) is going to force people into new builds pretty much no matter what system you chose to go with.

Bah, nonsense. You’re using the concept of specialization wrong. I’m talking about a “better” healer, “better” tank, etc. If an elementalist suddenly gets a sub-class that is more proficient at group healing guess what everyone is going to demand from the ele’s in their group… yep. A signet build with an additional signet doesn’t become more specialized in a role simply for having another signet. The new signet can easily add a balance of damage, control and/or support and avoid specialization altogether.

MercyKilling.8519:

VOLKON.1290:

MMOs don’t “end” in that regards, therefore you need progression instead of “an objective”.

I beg to differ. In ANY mmo out there…you get to max level…get all the top rated gear…you’ve run all the content….isn’t that the end? You’ve explored all the maps. Every quest? Check. I can’t think of a better definition of the word “end”. What are the top people in this game doing? Running the same “endgame” content over and over, right? Doing things they’ve done before, and quite often many times before. If that isn’t grind, treadmill, and reaching “the end”, I don’t know what is.

Well, no, that’s not the end… at least not for GW2. WvW is a new match every week, I’ve been doing that for ages now. Living Story is a continual influx of new content, often to the point that some people complain that there’s too much new stuff. WvW certainly isn’t a treadmill in any sense of it, any more than the NFL is for example. Treadmill refers to the constant cycle of gearing up then replacing the gear with new gear as new content releases, usually every few months or so.

The biggest worry I have with sub-classes is the potential to lead to specialization. Specialization is bad in this MMO because you’ll be walking down that dark and dangerous (and sometimes smelly) road towards “required” builds. It’s bad enough already that some people are foolish enough to think you need certain party make-ups for dungeons and the like, sub-classes would potentially make it much worse if they in any way give the appearance of being better at a specific role.

I enjoyed GW combat immensely, but I enjoy GW2 combat even more to be honest. I have more viable build choices in GW2 than the original had, even with all the skills of the original. Keyword: viable. I have more skills at my disposal now, more versatility, less pigeon-holing (smite monks, remember!), and more fluidity with combat.

Not that they would ever change it, but no, leave to be. It’s one of the best combat systems out there right now, no need to break it.

Sweepstakes? What sweepstakes?

Oh, and one problem with players/guilds taking over areas of the world… You effectively shut down the events related to those areas. Taking and controlling a centaur area would ‘turn off’ the centaur related events for example that spawn from those centaur. There’s a very real risk off entire event chains never being seen again. Just a thought to consider.

Sub-classes are bad. If you add specialization then the community will require specialization, that’s simply how we are. Required specialization goes against the very heart of this game.

Housing locales: Ebonhawke (human), Southsun (mixed, Consortium owned), beneath Rata Sum (Asura, could add a big pool of water and reintroduce Sum-surfing)’ not sure on the other races… Thoughts? This would be if there were racial housing zones, and Southsun is an obvious mixing pot type of area were that to be developed.

Hawkeye.2903:

Yes I UNDERSTAND that the Anet/Guild Wars ideology was to not have gear be a central aspect to completing content, but if you have 5 tiers of gear with all of them so close in stats, and I don’t need it for content, then why should I do extra work to get the better stuff?

Because you want to and have the option available to do so if you wish, that’s all. People that enjoy putting in the time and effort with the gear as the goal will do so. Others that want the gear may wind up purchasing much of the materials and getting it more quickly. You have more options.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

morrolan.9608:

How about some of the more egregious vertical progression imbalances get fixed before implementing purely horizontal progression suggestions such as the fixing ascended armor crafting so that it is more equitable instead of light armor taking 36 days to craft, medium armor 24 days and heavy armor 25 days due to the time gating on bolts of damask.

The goal of the T7 materials is not to be a pure time gate for crafting it’s to allow those materials to have value above their cost. This does mean weapons and armor that only take one material take longer to craft if you craft all the T7 mats yourself but you could also buy those mats thus it isn’t a time gate.

We do recognize that cloth prices are a bit high this is a factor of how hard it is to focus farm for leather and cloth. This is something we are looking into.

I have to disagree a little wee bit on the time gate comment… someone had to spend the time, the gating is there regardless although I can see what you’re saying as well. But that’s actually a pretty weak argument… sorry.

However the gating comes into play when you have people that don’t have the in game gold to purchase all the mats nor the real world resources available to convert gems to gold to make up the difference. I think of it as a time gate with work arounds. The gate is in crafting yourself. The work arounds are purchasing off the TP with earned gold or doing the same with purchased gold.

WRay.2391:

laokoko.7403:

WRay.2391:

Everybody for whom ascended is not a grind. Help me get full ascended for all my 8 alts, you are having fun grinding anyway.
Or give me yours, you don’t need it anyway as you are such a good players that can constantly dodge everything in white gear.

I can’t even imagine having a full set of top gear on 8 alts in any other mmorpg.

Maybe that’s why wow players joke about GW2’s endgame being making alt.

Ok, ANET can make any endgame they want. I gave up on this (though I knew what to do in game before ascended patch). But the problem is that I paid real money for character slot expansion. It was awesome before the patch. I was able to have 8 alts with BiS gear and enjoy the game using any class.
Now they break they manifesto and make all my alts useless. I’d say the product now is not as it was advertised and I lost money for nothing. If they are doing this I’d prefer to have money back solution and I’ll leave this game forever.
I’m not asking money paid for the game itself – I enjoyed it until recent changes. But there is no reason to have alts now if you don’t want to spend the whole life grinding. The most frustrating is a time spend to level up alts and make full map completion for them. The only way to use them now – park at JP and get daily loot (which is crap anyway).
And please, no stupid comments about “you don’t need ascended”. Really tired of it.

Reality check. Not one of your alts became useless with the addition of ascended gear. It doesn’t matter if you’re tired of hearing that “you don’t need ascended”. Facts are, whether they support your argument or not.

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

Bagel.4598:

Kevan.8912:

if you need more skins: ok, ask for what you want.

about future new BiS, i think that anet would face with a massive ragequitting of all the casuals they lured in by advertising “no treadmill”.

Already happened.

Anyone foolish enough to quit over a treadmill that doesn’t exist… well, I haven’t missed any of ’em.

If you don’t think there’s a gear treadmill then you’re part of the problem.

Where is it then? Where’s the next level of content requiring the next tier of gear forcing me to dispose of and replace my current existing tier?

The problem is actually with people that have no idea what a gear treadmill is, or even worse do know what it is but choose to use the term incorrectly in order to evoke an emotional response.

When you input gear that is a grind to acquire that has a greater statistical value than the current you create a treadmill.
Anyone who says “you don’t need it” are the same bland boss runners who will always be just that.
Just because you’re ok with something doesn’t make it ok for everyone.

The treadmill is the constant cycle of replacement that earlier raid based games used to keep players hooked.

Here’s the funny part… if they had released ascended gear exactly as it is now on release and never added a higher tier there wouldn’t be a single fallacious complaint about a treadmill.

moronwmachinegun.3815:

Crafting deserves its own CDI at some point. But my feeling on making it more relevant is to remove all the white/blue/green junk drops from the loot tables and increasing the value of the junk tokens merchants purchase. So you could still get rare on up through drops, but everything else would have to come via the player-driven economy. This would also encourage more people out into the world for materials.

Perhaps some of that grey junk could be incorporated into crafting (tinkering) for Halls and Homes. For example, if you took wood, leather, crystals and nails you could hypothetically create a mirror. What if you added, for example, minotaur claws or some other grey item to create an ornately decorated mirror that, for example, had the claws sticking out around the sides for a new look?

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

Bagel.4598:

Kevan.8912:

if you need more skins: ok, ask for what you want.

about future new BiS, i think that anet would face with a massive ragequitting of all the casuals they lured in by advertising “no treadmill”.

Already happened.

Anyone foolish enough to quit over a treadmill that doesn’t exist… well, I haven’t missed any of ’em.

If you don’t think there’s a gear treadmill then you’re part of the problem.

Where is it then? Where’s the next level of content requiring the next tier of gear forcing me to dispose of and replace my current existing tier?

The problem is actually with people that have no idea what a gear treadmill is, or even worse do know what it is but choose to use the term incorrectly in order to evoke an emotional response.

Bagel.4598:

Kevan.8912:

if you need more skins: ok, ask for what you want.

about future new BiS, i think that anet would face with a massive ragequitting of all the casuals they lured in by advertising “no treadmill”.

Already happened.

Anyone foolish enough to quit over a treadmill that doesn’t exist… well, I haven’t missed any of ’em.

Flytrap.8075:

VOLKON.1290:

So long as ascended remains the final “power” tier I like it. It gives people a little something to spend time towards if they wish and opened things up for expanded crafting, expanded designs, etc. It’s a good ceiling provided it remains the ceiling.

Legendary armors, now, should honor the ascended power ceiling and go with the added features, such as the ability to change stats on the fly (out of combat).

If ANet ever makes legendary armor, they deserve to go under. It’d be a complete betrayal of their founding principles in my eyes.

I’d be fine with it if it was on-par with how legendaries are currently implemented, but if there would be a further stat difference from Ascended items, then that’d be simply ridiculous.

Expect Legendary armor, and expect it to be equal to ascended in stats but have perks like the aforementioned ability to change stats easily.

Hmm… a thread about gear tears.

Teege.4623:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

2014 is going to be an amazing year for GW2 and the community!

Chris

This was also hyped prior to the game release. I’m still waiting on that.

They hyped 2014 before the game released? Wow, I missed that.

Did enjoy the kitten out of 2013 though.

So long as ascended remains the final “power” tier I like it. It gives people a little something to spend time towards if they wish and opened things up for expanded crafting, expanded designs, etc. It’s a good ceiling provided it remains the ceiling.

Legendary armors, now, should honor the ascended power ceiling and go with the added features, such as the ability to change stats on the fly (out of combat).

Aeonblade.8709:

I said WvW is one of the only areas of the game that isn’t silent. And yes I use TS. Can you read? WvW is one of the only areas of the game that are enjoyable because it does have people communicating.

RIP Understanding the English language, Jan 3. 2014. You will be missed.

Yes, I can read.

I can also mis-read. Sorry ’bout that. The rest stands valid however.

Aeonblade.8709:

Read the OP’s post. It’s like a bar no one talks in. Yea there are people there, but no one is saying anything to each other.

If you find pleasure in silence throughout 90% of the game I’m not faulting that. To each their own. But every other MMO I have played had a community that made you feel larger than yourself or your guild.

Unless you plan on doing WvW or Champ Trains, prepare yourself for the deafening silence. By making the game completely “solo friendly” they removed any need to communicate, which has made the game feel cold and unforgiving.

Ah yes… Barrens chat. Well… that was a community claiming to be larger at least. I don’t really recall any games where the low level PvE zones really went all that far to promote a sense of community… just a bunch of people leveling alts and passing through, maybe trying to get a group to take out some larger mini-boss before someone else came along and stole the kill.

Oh, and you think WvW is silent? Really? No… really? I’m guessing you’re one of the ones that refuse to get on TS and then wonder why you can’t hear anyone talking. It’s really pretty simple. The combat system in GW2, especially in an area like WvW, doesn’t work well with “type to chat”. You ever try to fight something and chat at the same time? Doesn’t work. What does work is voice chats like TeamSpeak. Or, to enhance the bar analogy, it’s not that the patrons in the bar aren’t talking, it’s that you need to take out the earplugs and actually allow yourself to listen.

I’ll bet the Consortium is looking at the requests about open world housing and already starting to divide up plots in SouthSun. (Some wildlife may need to be cleared prior to building…)

ZudetGambeous.9573:

well you know, except for the content that is cut off like high level fractals… exactly like how you only need top level raid gear in WoW for top level raids…

Also how can you possibly say "They’re actually living completely up to expectations, with no gear treadmill (the endless grind) out there causing us to toss our gear every couple months and grind fresh for a new set. "

When this is exactly what they have done… they have released higher stat gear every 3 months since the launch of the game. It isn’t an opinion, it is just truth.

High level fractals are in no way comparable to WoW raids. In WoW (at the time I played at least) you were on an endless cycle of gear replacement, with each new expansion or raid released you were tossing your old gear away as you replaced it with a higher tier, provided of course you were lucky enough to have a piece drop that you needed, win the roll on the piece and then actually have the raid leader honor the roll and give you the gear. Fractals you’re using your existing ascended trinkets (which they go out of their way to make sure are accessible) and bumping them up with the AR. It’s relatively time-gated, definitely not gear-gated.

And no, they haven’t released higher stat gear every three months. They’ve phased in the ascended tier, not replaced it with higher stat gear. Ascended is the ceiling and they chose not to inundate everyone with the all at once implementation of it.

So the facts remain. There is no endless grind gear treadmill in GW2, as promised. You are not forced to grind for the next set of gear in order to gain access to the next level of content.

It isn’t an opinion, it is just truth.

Kevan.8912:

Le Pecheur.2074:

I’m confused… I used to play Everquest, and that was a grind. In fact, pretty much all of the game play I can remember in EQ was grinding, aside from the quest here and there.

I’ve also played Aion. That was a super grind for gear. I have 400 hours on it on steam from a year or 2 just to get a full set of level 30 armor when the max level was 50 or something like that at the time.

GW 2? I haven’t noticed any grind. In fact, I’d say it’s the least grindy MMO I’ve ever played in my life. The worst grinding I’ve experienced is dungeons to get exotic gear from there… which is just as good stat-wise as bought gear for relatively cheap so meh.

again, people just don’t care if any other game was less or more grindy.
there souldn’t be any grind AT ALL, dungeon or skin or anything, according to advertising they sold the game with.
but, ok, let’s try to accept it.

but, BiS grind no. it’s totally out of gw2 goals.
don’t care if gw1 was grinding. or if other mmo need even more hours to get it.
just excuses for people who like it.

It staggering how wrong you are. It really is. What do you expect, instant level 80 and a gift locker with all the available armor in it for the choosing? Really?

Look, it’s really simple. You need time sinks in an MMO to keep people busy, give them more things to do. If everything can be completed instantly people will quickly grow bored once they’ve instantly done it all and be demanding more. Content consumption would be so much faster than content development that the game would simply die from boredom.

Now, you speak oddly of how they advertised the game. They’re actually living completely up to expectations, with no gear treadmill (the endless grind) out there causing us to toss our gear every couple months and grind fresh for a new set. Ascended gear taking time to get is not the type of ‘grind’ that was being referred to. It was the required archaic treadmill concept that is the bane of far too many games these days. You’re no longer forced onto the gear grind treadmill. If you want to get ascended gear, great! Go for it! If not, no content will be cut off from you for choosing not to do so.

I still like the idea of being able to unlock the currently unavailable weapons for your characters (with unique skills, of course), and think this could potentially be done in more interesting ways than simply equipping and learning the skills. (Profession specific weapons should stay the same.) Say for example a mesmer wants to learn to use a longbow. It’s possible that, perhaps, he could do so perhaps by beating a certain dungeon boss in the game, by completing an event chain leading to a boss that uses the long bow, … I don’t know, something creative. Of course, even the current ‘equip and use’ would be nice, but the potential to take it a little further for weapons not in your professions core group is there.

Chrispy.5641:

Nike.2631:

Watching this video I realized…

Order-specific dances.

Make it so .

Let us type /dance infront of a Dragon champion. The Dragon then starts dancing. Then it stomps and kills everyone in a five mile radius with giant words on the screen saying “You got served!”

Abaddon just filed a trademark infringement complaint. Be careful… he has all the good lawyers.

TitaniumDog.3054:

Easterbunny.6170:

……
And no, grinding 10 million scraps of silk does not count.

Funny you should mention that as with the release of the ascended gear I’ve pretty much stopped WvW and have started to park my chars at spots to farm wood and ore, though at some point I expect I’ll not be able to keep up with the game and just move on.

Just salvage the loot you get from bags in WvW… plenty of wood and ore to be had there.

Well, welcome back! There are some significant changes going on out there. A lot has happened in the last year.