Guild Wars 2

I like my thief, but have yet to enjoy playing my warrior (even though I leveled 1 to 80). It seems boring and mundane.

Then again, I never do anything the easy way.

See? Even Zhaitan hates the dredge. lol

1. Story mode dungeons – the way they tell the tale of destiny’s edge is next to useless. They’re often not done in order anyway. And they’re not rewarding enough to get many people to do them, except sometimes now on story mode dungeon daily days.

2. The Personal story – the big flaw in the personal story is the ten level increments it must be told in. This prevents any long term cohesive thread running through the whole story. The story becomes slave to the game design and, as a result, it suffers seriously.

3. SPvP – having only a single competitive mode was a big mistake

4. Build diversity – not nearly enough of this

5. DPS has far too much affect on the outcome of every fight. Control and healing should mean SOMETHING, though I’d never play a game again with the trinity. There just needs to be a way to add to the diversity of the game while keeping the trinity out.

Anet doesn’t really maintain the wiki, fans do….so it might just be wishful thinking…though I do suspect that Elona will be coming back at some future time.

Phantom.8130:

killcannon.2576:

Progression doesn’t have to be about stats. And for me it isn’t about stats, it’s about reason.

Sweeping Generalizations

The game lacks progression because the idea behind it is very inclusive instead of exclusive. There is no reason to log in because you never fall behind (one reason they introduced LS was to give the illusion of falling behind). No one stands out, everyone is equal, everyone is the same. No one gets shut out of any content ever. You don’t have to do AC to experience Arah. You don’t have to do your personal story to get to Cursed Shore. You never have to craft. You never have to leave the starting zone, you can rescue bunnies till you fall over dead. You don’t have to do anything.

It’s the epitome of the casual MMO, and that’s a good thing for many players and I’m glad they made a game for that crowd. But progression minded players (horizontal or vertical) don’t have much to shoot for. It’s the Minecraft of MMO’s.

i understand what you’re saying entirely. if make a new character and get him to level 80, and decide that i’d like to run arah, all i would have to do is just go to arah. the same with everything else. i don’t even have to acknowledge the existence of the lower level dungeon leading up it. progression would be starting with only AC available, and having to complete it to unlock CM, and so on up the list until i’ve done them all and am able to do arah. the same with everything else you’ve mentioned. it has nothing to do with gear whatsoever, but about actions. needing to complete easy tasks before being able to graduate up to doing harder and harder ones. starting off at the bottom and working your way up through the ranks. that sense of accomplishment is pretty much nonexistent in gw2. to use an analogy, it’s the difference between starting off in the mailroom and working to be promoted higher and higher up the corporate ladder, and being able to just start off as the CEO right off the bat. when you look back, and see all that you had to accomplish to get where you are, it means a hell of a lot more to you than if it was just hand delivered to you from the get-go. it also gives you goals to strive for. if you start off at the top, there’s nothing left for you to shoot for. if you start off at the bottom and need to earn your way up, each step becomes a goal in itself. gear is so often viewed as progression simply because acquiring each tier is a ladder of goals in itself. once you get the top tier of gear, there’s no new goals, so most MMOs spew out another few tiers of gear every now because it’s absurdly simple to do from a developer standpoint. it’s also extremely lazy and unimaginative, but it’s been done by so many companies for so long that it’s just become the accepted practice as well as the accepted definition of the word progression. it doesn’t reflect well on MMOs as a whole, when you think about it.

So you want linear progression. If that works for you, that’s great.

I don’t particularly want linear progression. If I’m good enough to do a higher level dungeon without doing a lower level one, I should be able to.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Great game. Mediocre MMO.

Funny I’d have reversed that.

Mediocre game, great MMO for me.

I’ve played games I like better, but no MMO has come close. lol Actually pretty good, rather than mediocre.

I just don’t see a lot of long term progression mechanics to keep players in game.

The LS for me has always been a stop gap measure till they had those mechanics in place. During the year that the LS has been active, I just haven’t seen the progression mechanics being implemented besides the achieve point awards.

For me, it’s a better game than an MMO simply because I really enjoyed the core game and exploring every zone and I had a lot of fun doing it. Now that I have done those things I just don’t have as much reason to play.

I don’t need ascended, WvW to me is just a huge mess of zergs, spvp isn’t fun due to a lack of game modes, the Legendary process relies more on rng than anything that I actually have some kind of involvement in, there is no reason for me to craft except to gear myself, the LS lacks meaningful story, gameplay or lore for me. I look at the game and see no progression, either horizontal or vertical. Even the guild missions don’t have progression… you don’t work your way up to a mega encounter with a great boss, you just pull some names out of a hat and go kill stuff or run around.

To me, that’s what an MMO needs. A way to set myself apart from anyone else. I don’t see another challenge to set myself against and overcome. Just log in, join a zerg train and grab some mats. That doesn’t make me feel accomplished, it’s just busy work like farming for mats in any other game…but for absolutely no reason.

The only reason I still play isn’t because of the game, it’s because of the people I’ve met. And I’ve quit games for less. It has a lot of potential, but for now, that’s all it is.

Potential.

See I’m the opposite. I’m perfectly content watching the LS unfold slowly. The progression (unquote) from most MMOs doesn’t feel like progression to me at all. Getting better stats through gear has NEVER entertained me and never will. The quest for gear, raiding or running dungeons is not why I play RPGs.

So no other MMO has held my interest for any length of time.

Achievement points on the other hand, that’s okay for me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Progression doesn’t have to be about stats. And for me it isn’t about stats, it’s about reason.

Sweeping Generalizations

The game lacks progression because the idea behind it is very inclusive instead of exclusive. There is no reason to log in because you never fall behind (one reason they introduced LS was to give the illusion of falling behind). No one stands out, everyone is equal, everyone is the same. No one gets shut out of any content ever. You don’t have to do AC to experience Arah. You don’t have to do your personal story to get to Cursed Shore. You never have to craft. You never have to leave the starting zone, you can rescue bunnies till you fall over dead. You don’t have to do anything.

It’s the epitome of the casual MMO, and that’s a good thing for many players and I’m glad they made a game for that crowd. But progression minded players (horizontal or vertical) don’t have much to shoot for. It’s the Minecraft of MMO’s.

See I’m the opposite. I see progression as the story progression. I’m seeing the LS progress and that’s fine for me. It’s enough.

What you’re talking about is caring about what other people are doing. I don’t care what other people are doing. They could miss or not miss…but the story is advancing and I’m happy to wait to see what happens.

I don’t need to be forced to play constantly to see progression….but I wouldn’t want to miss the story as it unfolds. I guess, again, we’re wired differently.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Great game. Mediocre MMO.

Funny I’d have reversed that.

Mediocre game, great MMO for me.

I’ve played games I like better, but no MMO has come close. lol Actually pretty good, rather than mediocre.

I just don’t see a lot of long term progression mechanics to keep players in game.

The LS for me has always been a stop gap measure till they had those mechanics in place. During the year that the LS has been active, I just haven’t seen the progression mechanics being implemented besides the achieve point awards.

For me, it’s a better game than an MMO simply because I really enjoyed the core game and exploring every zone and I had a lot of fun doing it. Now that I have done those things I just don’t have as much reason to play.

I don’t need ascended, WvW to me is just a huge mess of zergs, spvp isn’t fun due to a lack of game modes, the Legendary process relies more on rng than anything that I actually have some kind of involvement in, there is no reason for me to craft except to gear myself, the LS lacks meaningful story, gameplay or lore for me. I look at the game and see no progression, either horizontal or vertical. Even the guild missions don’t have progression… you don’t work your way up to a mega encounter with a great boss, you just pull some names out of a hat and go kill stuff or run around.

To me, that’s what an MMO needs. A way to set myself apart from anyone else. I don’t see another challenge to set myself against and overcome. Just log in, join a zerg train and grab some mats. That doesn’t make me feel accomplished, it’s just busy work like farming for mats in any other game…but for absolutely no reason.

The only reason I still play isn’t because of the game, it’s because of the people I’ve met. And I’ve quit games for less. It has a lot of potential, but for now, that’s all it is.

Potential.

See I’m the opposite. I’m perfectly content watching the LS unfold slowly. The progression (unquote) from most MMOs doesn’t feel like progression to me at all. Getting better stats through gear has NEVER entertained me and never will. The quest for gear, raiding or running dungeons is not why I play RPGs.

So no other MMO has held my interest for any length of time.

Achievement points on the other hand, that’s okay for me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I have some friends that have started playing too, recently. It’s good fun.

killcannon.2576:

Great game. Mediocre MMO.

Funny I’d have reversed that.

Mediocre game, great MMO for me.

I’ve played games I like better, but no MMO has come close. lol Actually pretty good, rather than mediocre.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

The same arguments could have been (and in some cases were) used to respond to the people who complained about nothing to do. Just as there is nothing sacred about a dislike for Ascended, there is nothing sacred about liking it, either. There is nothing inherently superior about either position.

This is 100% correct. There is nothing objectively good or bad about ascended gear, but I personally think it adds nothing at all to the game…well nothing good anyway.

Miss Sugarific.8471:

Removing glory? Wait, what?

Glory will be removed from the game…it’s already been announced.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

It’s not saying much that this is the best they could come up with for that.
I understand the reason, but not the implementation. And the forgotten fact seems to be that some people did start getting it in less than a week.
It’s like they just assumed that because MMO’s and RPGS have had mindless grind in them for so many years now that people must love it.
To be honest, the addition of Ascended grind is the reason I am patiently waiting for new MMO’s to come out. The grass isn’t always greener, I know, but GW2 has proven that in itself by catering to this model of endgame. I came here to get away from the standard MMO stagnation of tier grind, but ended up in the same situation. If I wanted the Ascended experience, I could pick up any MMO from the last 15 years and get the same grind.

Sure. But how many MMOs can you say that you can experience 99.9 % of the content without BIS gear is the question.

Most MMOs lock you out of content if you don’t gear up. Guild Wars 2 not so much.

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

This betrays the most common misconception about vertical progression that you see on the forums, that it is optional. You can have BiS but don’t really need it to play the content. I’m puzzled as to why people don’t understand the dynamics of relating power to time in a positive manner. We don’t really know what the slope of the power curve is in GW2, but we’ve seen about a 10% increase in power in it’s first year in the game. Can you play the game successfully given the current increase? Sure. But that ignores the effects of the increases of year two and beyond.

I’ve found it helpful to use an analogy here. Instead of games and power let’s consider real life and body weight. Let’s say you live in a universe where your body weight increases 10% per year. A moments thought will reveal to you that if you want to remain slim, you will need to get on the treadmill and the sooner the better. And, this is why the treadmill of VP is “technically” non-optional. The debate here should really be about whether you like the treadmill of VP or not, not about it’s optionality. In fact, that’s the major downside to VP—it’s coercive requirement to ride a treadmill that goes nowhere.

You’re making the assumption that more tiers of gear will be added. We simply don’t know that. It may happen.

I might even leave the game if it does.

I still believe this was a stop gap measure while Anet worked on other things to keep people playing.

Shakkara.2641:

Vayne.8563:

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

Well yes, but that’s why we need sandbox MMOs, or themepark-sandbox hybrids (even better). Games that allow the players to create the content or allow for a lot of emergent gameplay.

They’re different kind of games. Most of the best sandbox MMOs require a commitment most people can’t make. Take Eve for example. How many casual Eve players have you met?

Because of this, sand box games will usually have lower populations than themepark games. They’re just more demanding.

And they’ll probably all have open world PvP which a whole lot of people don’t like.

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

It’s not saying much that this is the best they could come up with for that.
I understand the reason, but not the implementation. And the forgotten fact seems to be that some people did start getting it in less than a week.
It’s like they just assumed that because MMO’s and RPGS have had mindless grind in them for so many years now that people must love it.
To be honest, the addition of Ascended grind is the reason I am patiently waiting for new MMO’s to come out. The grass isn’t always greener, I know, but GW2 has proven that in itself by catering to this model of endgame. I came here to get away from the standard MMO stagnation of tier grind, but ended up in the same situation. If I wanted the Ascended experience, I could pick up any MMO from the last 15 years and get the same grind.

Sure. But how many MMOs can you say that you can experience 99.9 % of the content without BIS gear is the question.

Most MMOs lock you out of content if you don’t gear up. Guild Wars 2 not so much.

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

It depends on what you mean by balance.

Check out this episode of Extra Credits to get an idea of what balance should be in an MMO.

Ronah.2869:

What does BiS stand for?

Best in slot gear. Right now, ascended gear is best in slot. It’s the highest stats you can get in each slot (except like aqua breather I think).

Some people feel they must have the highest numbers, even though they don’t need those numbers for anything they’re doing.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

Mungrul.9358:

Subdue.5479:

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

And was designed SPECIFICALLY for that in mind. The fractals were designed to give people who want to grind that play style. That’s their purpose.

If you don’t want to do it, you can play EVERY fractal without ever getting ascended gear. You can see every fractal. You can experience every boss.

You can’t play the higher levels, but you know…that’s a great compromise. The kind of compromise most games don’t provide.

I don’t find fracts a grind, i do find ar a grind thou, i would much prefer they removed ar and let us play to lvl 80 fracts, some peeps enjoy hard content but don’t enjoy hard grind.

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

Mungrul.9358:

Subdue.5479:

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

And was designed SPECIFICALLY for that in mind. The fractals were designed to give people who want to grind that play style. That’s their purpose.

If you don’t want to do it, you can play EVERY fractal without ever getting ascended gear. You can see every fractal. You can experience every boss.

You can’t play the higher levels, but you know…that’s a great compromise. The kind of compromise most games don’t provide.

Just remember, XP boosts don’t boot event experience, only kill experience, so do events where mobs spawn.

Also, the bonus experience from events is very low. A lot of times hunting creatures that are out of the way, even yellow creatures, is more profitable. Bonus experience accrues the longer a creature is alive without being killed.

Kill a bunch of yellows, move on to the next area…do events as you find them.

Probably the best way to use experience boosters.

Onirae.7123:

Flissy.4093:

Too much content?

You’re strange, since everything is just removed ~fortnightly anyway.

I do not understand your answer. Can you extend it? Also, please answer the other questions. Thanks!

Every two weeks or so, Anet releases more content in the form of something called either the living story or the living world. This content runs for a period of time, introducing achievements and rewards into the game for that time. Most living story content and rewards have been temporary.

Completionists who feel they most do everything in the game are feeling the pressure of content new content, but a lot of people just do the stuff they want to do or go for the rewards they want to go for.

Some of the living world content, however has remained behind. There’s a jumping puzzle that stayed, a new dungeon path, a redo of the Tequatl dragon encounter and new fractals (which is a series of minidungeons).

Hey there OP.

Nothing has really changed from your list of complaints…except some people call those features. In fact, many are here because of the lack of trinity.

It’s not that you can’t play a healer…you can’t play a dedicated healer. You can heal though. Eles, engineers, and guardians can all heal. You won’t be invited to many speed runs of dungeons but most casual runs won’t care at all. If you want to heal, spec to heal, find a casual guild and have fun.

There is a lot of content in this game and it’s not always easy to know what to do when. Again, playing with a guild can help you a lot there. A friendly guild will certainly go a long way to helping you figure out what is what.

Story decisions are final. That’s just the way it is. It means you need to be careful when making them. That’s not going to change.

Using AOE in an open world event isn’t exploiting. Every profession has AOE options, so there’s no reason not to use them in that kind of event.

I’m not sure what else to tell you. I’ve been playing this game since the first beta without a break, and I’m having a ball.

But the game isn’t designed as a typical MMO and if you come in expecting on, you’re going to probably be disappointed.

Kevan.8912:

i’m sure ANet knows quite precisely this “numbers”

what ppl like us can see, is only a piece of the whole, but it is clear that a lot of players who bought the game early quitted soon, and many of them did it because endgame lacks content…and many others after ascended introduction because STILL endgame sucks AND ascended are a pain and against their “ideals”

i don’t know if gw2 has increased its population after, and i don’t know if the new players/ comeback players did it because of ascended or for other reasons, but the fact that a lot of “faithful” players who bought the game at launch (gw1 lovers? casuals?) quitted soon is a symptom that there’s a huge issue around.

I don’t know if that’s what it means. I see a whole lot of people running around with GWAMM titles. You’re guessing here about how many original Guild Wars 1 players don’t like what’s going on, and for how many this is a deal breaker for.

I don’t think I was being hostile at all. I simply made an observation based on your statements. My best guess is, if you didn’t enjoy the game previously, you probably won’t now.

I’m not particularly aggrieved at the OP. But it could have been worded less provocatively.

You can sue for insult? Who knew? lol

I don’t know if hacking is involved or not, but good luck finding a game where hacking doesn’t exist.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Imho, such rewards for buying gems is always bad behavior ‘love you more’. But I said enough about the cash-shop focus in many threads so I will leave it with that.

Anyway OP. Last times every time they gave these gift of shames (as I have come to name them) they would eventually end up in the gem-store. So you might still be able to get it.

Right because a mini and a quaggan backpack, neither of which affects anything in game, is problematical.

Anet is thanking customers who support their game for supporting their game. It would be different if they gave everyone in game gold, or extra power. A quaggan backpack and a mini should be perfectly acceptable.

Heey Vayne,

I think we have had this discussion before already (when they also gave out gifts before). You might not remind it so just a small summary.

First of all people who buy gems get what they paid for, so giving something extra is really the ‘love your more’ idea. I paid my game, even a collectors edition, got all those nice things I did pay for but not a few months later a gift to thank me.

Thats because they are now focusing on gem-sales and as you might remember from talk we had before I do think the gem-store focus they are having (in stead of a expansion-focus) is bad for the game. So they are loving people more that imho are helping to get the game in a worse shape. Might you not remember again why I thouth that focus was bad read it here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/first#post3324571 it has nothing to do with the items giving you a benefit or not.

Of course you can say.. Well they do get money from those people so make sense they do love them more. Yeah thats nice but I am still waiting for my change to give them money… With an expansion. So it’s not like I am not willing to give them money. I did sign up for a B2P game and now they are generating money with micro-transactions. Something you mainly expect from F2P games.

So those actively supporting the game now, who get a nice thank you for doing so, aren’t deserving of it. It’s fluff stuff that’s all. It doesn’t change your game at all.

You’re waiting to support the game, I’m actively supporting it. So I get a thank you for actively supporting it. You don’t get a thank you for actively supporting it, because you’re not actively supporting it.

It’s called a loyalty reward and it’s fine. Other games have loyalty rewards too. Subscription based games have them for buying many months at a time sometimes. They’re not gem store based, but they still offer incentives for buying more time.

I bought more time for Rift and ended up not playing and I did it before incentives to buy game out. I didn’t get a cool mount for buying that time.

This isn’t a problem with buy to play or gem store or subscription. It’s normal for businesses to offer tokens to people who support them, because it’s good business.

No matter your business model.

Devata.6589:

Imho, such rewards for buying gems is always bad behavior ‘love you more’. But I said enough about the cash-shop focus in many threads so I will leave it with that.

Anyway OP. Last times every time they gave these gift of shames (as I have come to name them) they would eventually end up in the gem-store. So you might still be able to get it.

Right because a mini and a quaggan backpack, neither of which affects anything in game, is problematical.

Anet is thanking customers who support their game for supporting their game. It would be different if they gave everyone in game gold, or extra power. A quaggan backpack and a mini should be perfectly acceptable.

Out of curiously what level fractals are you talking about here?

Because at higher levels, the grawl fractal, particularly the last boss, can be brutal. And I’ve never had a particularly hard time in the harpy fractal. I don’t find it that hard to be honest.

Kevan.8912:

the issue are that:
- ascended is a new BiS
- and ALSO hard to get

another tier of new BiS would stil be a problem. also if easy to get.
so, the problem is also vp as it is. not only that gear is not readily available.

(and as we know the aim of new tiers is to be a time\money sink, so it s quite a contradiction to expect that new equip would be acquired in few hours)

the “compromises” about the ways to acquire ascended were done on the basis that anet will never remove them. but could at least reduce grind.
and stop vp to the point we are now…and start with horizontal

We’re not as far apart in our opinions in this as you think. I agree with you.

But I think the way you word things is less likely to have a positive affect than you’d hope for, that’s all.

I agree that there shouldn’t be more tiers of gear. I agree there should be easier ways to get existing tiers of gear. And I agree there should be more horizontal progression rather than vertical progression.

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Flissy.4093:

Raeysa Penrose.8450:

Flissy.4093:

Vayne.8563:

Flissy.4093:

Kibazuka.1390:

Flissy.4093:

I’ll give you 2 weeks before you go back on most of what you said.

I play since release day and still play several hours each day and love it.

Then you should be in the class of people who suffer the most from the games problems.

Quite a few people have been playing since launch. Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s bad. You just don’t like it, and you know…that’s okay.

It’s when people start trying to make their opinion into fact that the problem starts.

I like this game so the game is good for me. You don’t like this game so the game is bad for you.

Neither of us is right. But you shouldn’t assume the OP won’t like it in two weeks, because there are people playing since beta 1 who still like it.

I like the game. I still play many hours a day. That doesn’t make the direction the game is going good, it’s just the stuff from launch/shortly after is still interesting to me.

MMOs should never have been designed to cater to people who work 9-5 and play 1 hour a day around a family life.

Jeez, that’s a bit harsh. Do you not have to work for a living or something?

I’m not criticising the group I mentioned, simply stating that MMOs have never been catered to such players, and as a genre known for such deep character progression and development, methods should never be easily attainable by those with extremely limited time.

oh dear, i think that i misunderstood nearly everything about gw2….
i thought it was about casuals, and “people who don’t like mmos”

good. just in time to change game.

ooops..i already spent 50bucks in 2012…what the hell!

Yes you spent $50. And how many hours of play did you get for the $50? I’d wager more than you’d get for most games for $50.

And Guild Wars 2 never claimed that it would be made ONLY for casuals. I’d like you to show me where that was advertised. Guild Wars 2 is VERY casual friendly because you don’t need ascended gear to do 99.9 percent of the content.

What your issue is is that you’re not casual because you insist on BIS gear, which most casual players don’t really care about. That’s part of what makes them casual.

as you love words, i didn’t say it was ONLY for casuals. and i didn’t say it was advertised.
just said i “misunderstood”.
strange phenomenon. in some threads you go directly to correct the supposed meaning of a post. in others only stick to semantics ignoring the message. interesting

Well, you see here’s the issue. If you simply misunderstood, then all the complaining you’re doing in other threads would be your own fault. But across several threads, you’re not saying the same thing.

If the fault is yours, why not admit it? If the fault isn’t yours, why say it here?

And yes, I type fast and read fast, I won’t always get it right. When I don’t I apologize.

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Actually you’re completely wrong. You can’t say you have zero tolerance for vertical progression. Want to know why?

Because before Anet introduced ascended gear at all….vertical progression was already in this game.

Exotics, rares, and masterwork items all have the same levels, but they’re different tiers of the same gear. That is vertical progression.

You don’t have zero tolerance for vertical progression, or you’d be complaining about exotics.

You have an arbitrary line that Anet crossed and you’re calling it vertical progression. Why are you not complaining about exotic gear?

ok. do what you want with language.
still, i think that if i “misunderstand” everything, you are stuck in semantics, losing the global meaning of what people is complaining about.

no. i m right if i say zero tolerance to vp. or…“that’s enough vp”.
as exotics were there since the launch of the game, and were always easily got after 80. with little to no “aimed” grind.
this doesn’t happen with ascended.
it’s a time and money\resources\amount of work threshold.
and of course, a “stop line” threshold, no more tiers, no more stats.

is this philosophically and philologically correct, prof.Vayne?
of course not.
but still our “arbitrary grind line” exists. and it’s personal one, and nobody has the right to "correct"it.
just express your personal one.

The point is you’re not really complaining about VP, you’re complaining about the difficulty of getting BIS gear, which is a different complaint. And if people don’t word their complaints right, how will anyone know what they’re talking about.

People often accuse me of playing semantics. The fact is, people often misword stuff and leave a false impression. You have no real problem with more tiers of gear, if that gear is easy to get. That’s the real issue.

If anyone could easily get a new tier of gear, I doubt very much anyone here would be complaining.

But the gear is basically gated behind crafting, which is a major problem.

Anet isn’t going to take away a tier of gear…but they could conceivably make that gear easier to get.

You can accuse me of playing semantics, but if you really want the game to improve, you have to ask for things that might happen…because Anet won’t be removing ascended gear from the game. It’s not going to happen.

But they might make ascended gear easier to get, with less grind.

Yes, they added the dungeon finder. If you didn’t like the game then, you might very well not like the game now.

There are tons of people who like the game…but it might not be the game for you. Because the core game hasn’t significantly changed.

Oh there are a few new bits here and there. Some changes to balances. There have been changes to WvW and SPvP…but the core game hasn’t really changed much at all.

And it seems to be doing quite well. Of course that also might depend on the server you’re on. Try guesting to Tarnished Coast if there aren’t enough people on your server.

This was obviously meant to be a reward for people supporting the game. Buying gems with in game gold…not really so supportive.

The people who support this game, are giving Anet money to fix bugs, produce content, keep the game moving forward….so Anet gives them a periodic bonus.

I’m not sure why anyone would think that using in game gold to buy gems would get them an extra bonus. It would have never occurred to me.

Kevan.8912:

Flissy.4093:

Raeysa Penrose.8450:

Flissy.4093:

Vayne.8563:

Flissy.4093:

Kibazuka.1390:

Flissy.4093:

I’ll give you 2 weeks before you go back on most of what you said.

I play since release day and still play several hours each day and love it.

Then you should be in the class of people who suffer the most from the games problems.

Quite a few people have been playing since launch. Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s bad. You just don’t like it, and you know…that’s okay.

It’s when people start trying to make their opinion into fact that the problem starts.

I like this game so the game is good for me. You don’t like this game so the game is bad for you.

Neither of us is right. But you shouldn’t assume the OP won’t like it in two weeks, because there are people playing since beta 1 who still like it.

I like the game. I still play many hours a day. That doesn’t make the direction the game is going good, it’s just the stuff from launch/shortly after is still interesting to me.

MMOs should never have been designed to cater to people who work 9-5 and play 1 hour a day around a family life.

Jeez, that’s a bit harsh. Do you not have to work for a living or something?

I’m not criticising the group I mentioned, simply stating that MMOs have never been catered to such players, and as a genre known for such deep character progression and development, methods should never be easily attainable by those with extremely limited time.

oh dear, i think that i misunderstood nearly everything about gw2….
i thought it was about casuals, and “people who don’t like mmos”

good. just in time to change game.

ooops..i already spent 50bucks in 2012…what the hell!

Yes you spent $50. And how many hours of play did you get for the $50? I’d wager more than you’d get for most games for $50.

And Guild Wars 2 never claimed that it would be made ONLY for casuals. I’d like you to show me where that was advertised. Guild Wars 2 is VERY casual friendly because you don’t need ascended gear to do 99.9 percent of the content.

What your issue is is that you’re not casual because you insist on BIS gear, which most casual players don’t really care about. That’s part of what makes them casual.

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Actually you’re completely wrong. You can’t say you have zero tolerance for vertical progression. Want to know why?

Because before Anet introduced ascended gear at all….vertical progression was already in this game.

Exotics, rares, and masterwork items all have the same levels, but they’re different tiers of the same gear. That is vertical progression.

You don’t have zero tolerance for vertical progression, or you’d be complaining about exotics.

You have an arbitrary line that Anet crossed and you’re calling it vertical progression. Why are you not complaining about exotic gear?

Kevan.8912:

please. don’t even quote this kitten manifesto.
every time someone talks of it, there s someone starting to teach why anet is right why we bought the wrong game etc.

plz tell: i bought it “because i thought there was no grind to get the best equip” :O
it’s really a pain in the kitten .
again, if @subdue or someone else demostrates it wasn’t in the manifesto, still we’ll continue to complain about it because we don’t like it.
ok? T.T

I never said Anet was right and you were wrong. I said that people misintepret the manifesto, which is about as obvious as you can get. People take other things said in other places and superimpose it over what was said in the manifesto, because it contains the word grind. It’s an obvious misinterpretation, but people keep doing it. It’s a misuse of language, which was my business for a very long time.

HiddenNick.7206:

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with this. I would prefer there was no vertical progression in the game. I don’t think that it makes this a better game.

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

There are other ways to progress your characters without vertical progression. There are ways to progress via horizontal progression.

I didn’t say I’m against progression. I’m against gear grind in general.

People played Guild Wars 1 for years, without any stat progression on armor or weapons. What they got instead was new and better skills. And you could level up some skills, so they did more. That to me was far more fun than getting better gear.

I never wanted to be a coat rack for greatness. And if I wanted gear grind, I’d have become a watchmaker.

Ceridwen.6703:

Ren.5842:

Just wanted to stop by and say, well, I’m loving Guild Wars 2!

This weekend I’m supposed to be in a beta stress test for another game which shall remain nameless, but playing that for a few hours last night made me realise just how much this game has compared to all other mmos!

Oddly enough, I’m doing the same thing this weekend… but after a few hours last night, I think I’ll be back in Tyria today.

I had a beta invite from another big name game and I’ve been trying it out. It’s not bad….it’s pedestrian. They have a whole lot of work to do before it’s half the game that Guild Wars 2 is.

Flissy.4093:

Kibazuka.1390:

Flissy.4093:

I’ll give you 2 weeks before you go back on most of what you said.

I play since release day and still play several hours each day and love it.

Then you should be in the class of people who suffer the most from the games problems.

Quite a few people have been playing since launch. Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s bad. You just don’t like it, and you know…that’s okay.

It’s when people start trying to make their opinion into fact that the problem starts.

I like this game so the game is good for me. You don’t like this game so the game is bad for you.

Neither of us is right. But you shouldn’t assume the OP won’t like it in two weeks, because there are people playing since beta 1 who still like it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

What sounds like greed to me is people buying a game that advertised, “Everyone should have max statistical gear by level 80.” and moaning about nothing to work for — when every other game out there not only offered but advertised stat increase progression.

I agree with you and I don’t agree with you.

You seem to liken this to every other game out there, but it’s not. That is to say, nothing prevents someone from doing all the content, whether there is BIS gear that requires grind in the game or not.

There’s a difference between what we have here and a gear treadmill. If Anet keeps releasing more tiers of gear, you’d be right to compare it to other games. But other games continuously introduce more tiers of gear.

Frankly, I don’t think we’ll see anything else but legendary which will have the same stats as ascended from this point on, because there are enough people that will play to grind achievement points, so Anet has found the other solution they needed.

However, no one can say for sure, until we see what the future holds.

Temariah.9372:

I hate how negative people are. After reading some of the posts in this thread I’m honestly a little annoyed at how horrible people are with taking quotes out of context and mocking them. I’ve never seen any other developers in any other game that I’ve played actually say that they’ve learned a lot and are going to change how they do business because they listened to player feedback.

Why do people constantly harp on the things Anet does wrong and never praise them for what they do right?

Welcome to MMO game forums. Every one I’ve seen is pretty much like this.

I think it’s because people are so vested in the game they want to play without considering the “big picture”.

I try to keep an open mind when something is done to the game that I might not like, because I know I’m not the only person playing the game.

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

I, on the other hand, would probably do what Anet did.

ooook. buuuuuuut….
it’s not my work to understand their choices.
i’m a customer, a noob and stupid one. and i just like/dislike it that’s all that is required to me.

but still, also if i know it now…as it’s not MY million, i think that i’ll still find the game worse than it was in the beginning before ascended come. no effect on me.

if you don’t like the game as it is, but you find this explanations satisfactory so that you can make the game more interesting, i’m glad for you
so, it becomes a “vayne likes vertical progression”. and i respect it, it’s your right.

I’m not sure I agree that it’s not your work to understand choices. Being an “educated consumer” makes any argument you make stronger.

Sure you don’t like vertical progression…I get that completely. But complaining about something and saying they should have done something else, when that something else is probably more risky (and as you already pointed out, time consuming), well… it derails your entire premise.

You’re entitled not to like anything you want, but if there is a reason for something being done and you say, I don’t care about that reason, then you’re losing sympathy for your cause.

In other words, suggestions about what should have been done are less helpful to the game over all if you don’t understand why the original change was made in the first place, and even more so if you don’t care why it was done.

Kevan.8912:

imsoenthused.1634:

Ascended goes against ever thing great that Guild Wars once stood for, and should never have had better stats. Seriously, in the sequel to one of the games that proved pure horizontal progression and prestige skins work great, how do you get this wrong?

yeah. as gw showed in the past, i think it could still work, evem with a more wow-used ppl.
but of course, it requires much more work than throwing in a dozen of new time-and gold-sucking gear.
hope devs will take the good way. don t know if it’s too late

I think you’re missing the point, mate. You’re right. It requires more time. And when Anet implemented ascended gear originally, what makes you think they had that time.

The advantage to gear progression is that it’s tried and true. It’s low risk. I’m sure if it was your millions of dollars, you’d have gone for a higher risk strategy that took longer to implement.

I, on the other hand, would probably do what Anet did.

Actually the guild usually makes it own overflow and then moves everyone there, so we don’t do it on main servers. The exception to this is the middle of the night.

stale.9785:

Oh, I know they didn’t set out to “screw over our loyal long term fan base.” I’m saying that’s what the result was. In my opinion, they aimed for too much income, fell short, and then screwed the very people who gave them the ability to consider making this game in the first place.

The result, for me, is a game that I almost love, but now am disgusted with each time I log on, because there was this huge potential, and they dropped the ball.

See, I get this completely.

I’m not in the same boat you are. I still have fun in game. I hang out with my guild. We run some dungeons, do some guild missions, have some laughs. I don’t take it too seriously. I play the game.

Most of the time I’m banging around in the open world, looking around, exploring, doing jumping puzzles, helping newbies out.

The addition of ascended gear doesn’t affect me badly because it hasn’t changed the game for me….not really at all.

I never did a level 50 fractal before, and I’ll probably never do one. The highest level fractal I’ve done is level 34 (before the changes to fractals).

The thing is, I’m a pragmatist at heart. If what you’re saying is true, that Anet aimed too high and had to compromise…I think well yes. That might be what happened. But so what? If they had to they had to.

I can blame them for aiming too high (which anyone can do). I can blame them for compromising (which from a business point of view was the right thing to do, or I can accept the fact that the world is an imperfect place and blame WoW and WoW clones for training an entire generation of players in such a way that a truly good MMORPG can’t really exist.

I chose the latter option lol.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

So basically making GW1 with prettier graphics and the ability to jump?
Because that is what would be required for them to take everything everyone loved about GW1. And then it would have been utterly pointless.

The main philosophy is still there, and that is more or less what that line talks about.

It’s the one line in the entire manifesto I take exception to.

I mean it should be obvious that it’s not possible.

So are you suggesting he wasn’t telling the truth?

I’m suggesting he was talking casually and not really expecting everyone to take it literally. It’s clearly marketing speech.

Things aren’t just true and false in the real world. There are shades of meaning. But I’m definitely saying it was an ill-advised thing to say.

stale.9785:

Vayne, I know you don’t see it as important – to others, myself included, it is though. One of the major reasons I bought this game was that, the times I interacted with the devs regarding gw2, I was one of the people asking about gear progression. Without fail, the response was a variation of “cosmetic only” and “BiS for all, the same as GW1.”

This is no longer true. The fact that there isn’t (yet) anything in game that requires the BiS gear isn’t relevant. The fact that I personally bought the game under false pretenses is extraordinarily relevant.

To be honest, had they implemented ascended in a way that 1) rewarded is consistently for certain quests/achievements, 2) followed the dungeon exotic setup, with a slightly higher requirement (say, 1000 tokens per piece), 3) introduced it without the insane grind required for crafting, I’d likely not ever complain. As it is, I find the acquisition method to be the part that irritates me the most.

(The other reason I bought GW2 would simply be my love of GW1, which stands out for me as one of the best games I’ve ever had the joy of playing – easily equal to the zelda or elder scrolls franchises. That’s actually part of why I’m as vocal as I am about ascended and some of the other issues – they’ve taken what, for me, was a truly amazing thing, and kitten all over it.)

I understand what you’re saying. I was a Guild Wars 1 player too. I have my 50/50 and I have my GWAMM title and I still jump into Guild Wars 1 and play occasionally. I’m not insensitive to what you’re saying.

But it’s still a fact that the big push behind this game, what Anet themselves pushed, as personal story, DEs and active/dynamic combat. They pushed that stuff. You can’t say Anet sold this game on that, even if you personally bought it on that (as many people did).

This game has a much much higher overhead than Guild Wars 1 did. It doesn’t have 50 devs it has 300. They moved to bigger offices. The overhead is higher because of it.

In the end, they have to have more people playing this game than played Guild Wars 1 for it to be successful.

Guild Wars 1 was a great game…but it was more of a strategy game than an MMO. There was a lot more thinking involved. Which meant it was always going to be niche. In order to make a game less niche, you have to open it up to the masses. When you do that you sort of become slave to the whims of the masses. It sucks but there you are.

I don’t know if you remember how many people were leaving this game back before the Fractals came out. Or the number of posts about nothing to do at end game.

There are just too many people who won’t play for cosmetic rewards. That’s something I believe.

Do you really believe Anet sat around the office, waited two months and said, hey I have a great idea. Let’s screw over our loyal long term fan base. Because I’m pretty sure that’s not the way it happened.

They made a business decision because the millions of dollars invested was at risk. I’m not sure most people, even those complaining, wouldn’t have done the same thing if it had been their money and time invested.

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

So basically making GW1 with prettier graphics and the ability to jump?
Because that is what would be required for them to take everything everyone loved about GW1. And then it would have been utterly pointless.

The main philosophy is still there, and that is more or less what that line talks about.

It’s the one line in the entire manifesto I take exception to.

I mean it should be obvious that it’s not possible. What if different people loved different things about Guild Wars 1. Everyone knew there wouldn’t be heroes and there wouldn’t be as many skills. That’s sort of my point.

Anyone who saw that line, and didn’t know there wouldn’t be second professions…well those people didn’t really do enough research.

So if heroes, second professions and most forms of PvP weren’t to be included (and Anet was crystal clear about that), how could anyone take that line at face value?

CrossedHorse.4261:

Vayne.8563:

stale.9785:

The bulk of the complaining about ascended has less to do with the actual stat increase (which does matter if you’re into WvW or min/maxing) but to do with the fact that Anet spend 5 years pimping their game as being one without gear progression or grind for gear.

I’m too lazy to look for the quote, but in essence, it was that everyone, including casuals would have the BiS gear at level 80. Further gear progression would be purely cosmetic.

Ascended is a blatant “kitten you” to every person who bought the game with that ideal in mind.

But Anet didn’t actually spend five years pimping their game saying that the game would be without gear progression.

In those five years, you could count on one hand how many times they talked about gear progression, and almost always in answer to a question.

Out of hundreds of hours of interviews and video, Anet didn’t sell their game on a lack of vertical progression. They sold their game on dynamic events, personal story, and active/dynamic combat. That’s what they sold their game on.

When you look at their website, that’s what’s front in center. When you watched them at conventions that’s what they talked about.

Mentioning something a few times in five years is not selling your game on it. This is at very least an exaggeration.

That might be true, but I have to say that it’s the reason I bought the game. I thought, “YES! Fantastic, a game I don’t have to keep up with all the time, where I can come and go and have my character still in the same place it was last time I left a month ago”. That’s no longer the case. And, while I’m annoyed at Ascended but resigned to it if I want it, I can completely see why it’s annoyed some people.

So, no, I’m not going to rag on ANet for not keeping promises or for the manifesto or anything like that, because I also think that it’s a bad place to go, but I did just want to say that the major selling point of this game for ME, was the no gear progression. Now that I am in the game, there are several other reasons I like it, of course. But if I were a new player, attracted because I’d heard there was no gear progression and a player turned round to me and told me that wasn’t true, I don’t think I’d have picked it up in the first place.

But my question is this…what has really changed.

We have people gone for six months or more than have come back to the game in my guild. They jumped into a dungeon with us and did the dungeon. They played WvW with us and they were fine. They didn’t die any more than anyone else.

I think a lot of this is in people’s minds. Is there a difference between ascended gear and exotic…sure there is. That much is obvious.

But it’s not the kind of difference that will stop people from succeeding at events, or beating dungeons.

The only exception would be the absolute highest level fractals, and more casual players (and in fact most of the playerbase) will never see those anyway.

stale.9785:

The bulk of the complaining about ascended has less to do with the actual stat increase (which does matter if you’re into WvW or min/maxing) but to do with the fact that Anet spend 5 years pimping their game as being one without gear progression or grind for gear.

I’m too lazy to look for the quote, but in essence, it was that everyone, including casuals would have the BiS gear at level 80. Further gear progression would be purely cosmetic.

Ascended is a blatant “kitten you” to every person who bought the game with that ideal in mind.

But Anet didn’t actually spend five years pimping their game saying that the game would be without gear progression.

In those five years, you could count on one hand how many times they talked about gear progression, and almost always in answer to a question.

Out of hundreds of hours of interviews and video, Anet didn’t sell their game on a lack of vertical progression. They sold their game on dynamic events, personal story, and active/dynamic combat. That’s what they sold their game on.

When you look at their website, that’s what’s front in center. When you watched them at conventions that’s what they talked about.

Mentioning something a few times in five years is not selling your game on it. This is at very least an exaggeration.