Guild Wars 2

knives.6345:

Nurgle.6597:

The problem was that the other builds weren’t good enough, nerfing crit dmg just makes that one build worse, the others are still useless. Now it’s only going to take even longer to kill all those meat shield enemies that pose 0 threat and have millions of hp

This.

I mean, condition still sucks, heals/tanks are still useless, so what do we have? A build that does less damage for no reason.

I mean, I’m ok with the change provided they give us incentive to actually want the other builds. This statement comes from a player who uses zerk/scholars.

They’ve already said this first change is necessary to set up other changes, but they want to do things in stages.

This isn’t supposed to be “the solution”. It’s supposed to be part of a foundation for changes to come.

Levetty.1279:

Vayne.8563:

Treborlavok.3504:

This does the exact opposite of what they wanted…

Now since zerk does less dmg groups will almost have to run full zerk to keep dmg up. If you run anything but zerk you’re going to slow down the group… GG

This is the case now, and hasn’t changed at all. Not one iota.

The thing is, this is supposed to be the first change of many. Anet doesn’t want to make a huge BOOM change. Look at all the crying over this already and it’s not even out. Could you imagine what the response would be if Anet cut it further.

They’re making this change to make other future changes possible, but it’s one step at a time.

Given the reaction record of these forums, I’d think that’s a pretty smart move on their part.

You think its very smart for Anet to nerf all the DPS builds for literally no reason and to do nothing about the actual problem people were complaining about in the first place?

I think if they feel a need to change it (and I certainly see a need to change it), then doing it slowly is smarter than making big sweeping changes all at once.

This is, as they’ve said, only the foundation, the first change of many to come. I’m happy to see it happen slowly.

I have no problem with GvG being in the game…I only have a problem with open world.

If open world PvP of any kind was introduced in the game, I’m relatively sure that not only I would leave the game, but most of my guild would as well.

Im Mudbone.1437:

My problem with all the GW2 hoopla will be solved on 4/4/14.

Finally got into the beta. If you think that’s going to solve the issues, good luck to you. It’ll do well because it’ll be available on consoles, but for the PC?

I’d give up MMOs before playing that.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

So, instead of debuffing one profession they should raise all the stats to that, and make all the content in the entire game trivial and meaningless to everyone?

If something is out of whack by being two powerful, it’s not only less work to debuff that one thing, but think about it.

If you increase everything you also have to increase the power of all the enemies. Do you know how much work that would be?

One year after this game launched 95% of the content IS trivial and meaningless.

Think about it – just a few areas actually pose a challenge – High level fractals and some other places. The rest of the map? Trivial, boring, easy.

Because the players got better. It doesn’t have that much to do with gear as it does with people adapting and adjusting to the game more and more.
The real answer here would have been NEW content – instead of temporary LS clutter and more importantly the introduction of ELITE areas.

Thing FOW and UW from GW1. Sure fractals can work but not really – and by the time you get into FOTM 40+ you’ve already figured out the best strategies and seen all that fractals has to offer.

Perhaps a hard-mode variant of dungeons would be good – double the gold reward, double the tokens, increased drop rates for those players that REALLY want to play hard content.

Also to those who are considering that the game could be reworked – that will never happen. Each encounter and such will never be reworked – the only solution is that NEW content added is much more interesting and challenging and equally rewarding.

Edit : I see some people have focused on the idea that the majority want challenging content.
That is wrong – the majority of players want LOOT. Gold. Shiny things.
Challenging content is FUN but if it is not profitable or rewarding to run it players will do it once or twice for the challenge and then never do it again.

Why do you think people run AC 1/3 + CoF 1+2, SOS1 and HOTW1? Because of easy money.

Why don’t people do their own Arah paths? And just buy the dungeon from those going " Selling arah path x 5 g " – because they want the reward ( aka achievement) without doing the challenging content.

Why do you think the new Aetherblade path in TA is not being done by anyone?
Why do people never play SE P2?

Nope, the content isn’t trivial. It’s mostly trivial TO ME, but that’s because I play a lot. And for a certain percentage of people the content is trivial. For another demographic, probably more than half the player base, it isn’t trivial at all.

We’ve seen many posts on this forum that the game is too hard.

There’s danger in assuming your demographic is “the” demographic.

Plenty of people still find the combat in this game challenging. They can’t just make the game for people who are at the top of their game.

siralius.9517:

WifeAggro.7389:

Honestly… where is everybody? There seems to be no need for interaction with anyone pre-10. The chats seem completely dead. While I enjoy the gameplay, I feel very… bored. I am going to power through it and whatnot, but am I missing something in the social department? Did I miss a tutorial on it? I’m not on an empty server; what’s going on?

Don’t listen to these other posters. Most maps/zones in this game are dead, so map chat will essentially be dead. There are several reasons for this. Here are the two main reasons, shortened for your convenience.
1: There is NOTHING to be gained from frequenting zones unless you are going for map completion for legendary. In this case, players will be doing a zone once over and that’s it.
2: There are too many other ways to cheese it to 80 (which most players will do anything to get there as soon as possible. Why? Because there is no pleasure in lvling. As a poster proudly stated on another thread; lvling is “filler”) ex: crafting, switching to your low lvl toon at end of dungeon run, riding a lowbie through a wvw karma train.

You’re clearly not on Tarnished Coast. If you were, you wouldn’t make such statements.

There’s a danger in believing that every server is identical. It’s just not true.

You shouldn’t tell people not to listen to other posters anyway. It implies that you have some great truth or knowledge that no one else has.

OP, I’d suggest you guest over to Tarnished Coast and see for yourself, before taking anyone’s word.

Are you comparing just an ascended weapon or a full ascended set against a non-ascended set.

Because anyone can get an ascended amulet, and many people have either ascended rings from fractals or ascended earrings from Guild missions. You can even get an ascended backpiece if you do enough fractals.

Is that taken into account or are we talking full ascended vs. no ascended?

LittleLepton.8915:

It might also be your server. For instance, I have never been to a map on my server where there is not a single person there. There’s always someone.

This is true for my server too but not everyone chats in map chat. I mean if I’m already chatting in guild chat, and it’s busy, I don’t always have time to answer map chat.

Treborlavok.3504:

This does the exact opposite of what they wanted…

Now since zerk does less dmg groups will almost have to run full zerk to keep dmg up. If you run anything but zerk you’re going to slow down the group… GG

This is the case now, and hasn’t changed at all. Not one iota.

The thing is, this is supposed to be the first change of many. Anet doesn’t want to make a huge BOOM change. Look at all the crying over this already and it’s not even out. Could you imagine what the response would be if Anet cut it further.

They’re making this change to make other future changes possible, but it’s one step at a time.

Given the reaction record of these forums, I’d think that’s a pretty smart move on their part.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Almost all my characters use hybrid builds with a moderate amount of crit… “-10%” doesn’t affects full berzerker so much, but hits people who use mixed set hard.
How this should promote diversity? :S

(I could be wrong, maybe I didn’t totally got how the change will work, but for now this is what I’m thinking reading those info :S)

I don’t think this is right. You’re talking as if ferocity will affect anything BUT your crit damage. It seems to me that people who are loading out their builds to get maximum crit damage will be affected more than a hybrid build. This is why.

If you are a hybrid build, your crit damage isn’t your only stat. Most of your stats aren’t diminished at all. So if you have part of your build in toughness and vitality and power and you have some in crit, ONLY the crit portion of your build gets affected…but as you’re not “stacking crit”…that portion of your build is smaller. You wont’ be doing 10% less damage, only the damage being done by the crit portion of your build will be less, but the rest of your damage won’t be affected. Precision isn’t actually directly affected and power damage isn’t affected at all.

So the overall percentage of damage you do DUE TO CRIT, is the only thing that’s affected. Not your overall damage.

The more points you have in critical percentage, the more your build will be affected.

People need to listen to the podcast instead of just reading a post. This is only the first step to balancing the builds, not a complete solution. They can’t make more changes till they see how this one goes down. This isn’t a zerker solution only a single step.

I always see players on Tarnished Coast. No idea what server you’re on. And that’s at all hours (since I’m in Australia).

Every game, even WoW has some dead servers, particularly in middle zones. That’s because everyone tends to be in end game zones.

It’s a bit different in this game, but like all MMOs, there are natural gathering points.

So, instead of debuffing one profession they should raise all the stats to that, and make all the content in the entire game trivial and meaningless to everyone?

If something is out of whack by being two powerful, it’s not only less work to debuff that one thing, but think about it.

If you increase everything you also have to increase the power of all the enemies. Do you know how much work that would be?

One thing which people do seem to overlook is that in almost every MMO I’ve ever played, you have all your skills available to you at once.

In Guild Wars 1, you have to load out your skills before you leave an outpost.

At least in Guild Wars 2, that’s mostly the same, though slightly improved in that I can change both skills and major traits without returning to an outpost and starting over.

How would this open world guild war affect event scaling in a zone? Suppose 2 guilds of 20 members each are fighting and I’m trying to do an event nearby? Won’t that event be scaled up so that I couldn’t possibly do it, even though the other 40 people aren’t doing the event?

In a game with dynamic events, this is a terrible idea.

mesme.5028:

Go back and watch the Manifesto, forget what you know and think you know, what actually stands up in the light of day?

Forget the, oh they meant it this way, not that way, watch it and see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZqw12hkdEc

I did watch it. And you know…my opinion hasn’t changed, because I originally interpreted it to mean what I think it means today. So it’s the same for me.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not me telling you what to like or not like, you miss the point. Anyone who’s not being disingenuous knows full well that fun is a matter of personal taste. What one person finds fun another person doesn’t.

And yet you told me what would be fun for me after I said that it wasn’t.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re doing is trying to say the devs were wrong or misleading for calling their game fun, because you don’t find if fun…specifically the combat in their game. That’s like a company saying their car looks good, and you saying they’re wrong because you don’t like how it looks. Sure you can have a contrary opinion, but it doesn’t mean the company has gone back on it’s word. It’s rather that you just don’t like it.

What I said was that this aspect of the manifesto was subjective. That for some people it was true and that for others it was not. You said that it was not subjective. A claim that something is not subjective is a claim that it is objective. You keep claiming that I do not like the combat. I keep pointing out that you are wrong. As you have been informed of the truth (that I do not dislike the combat) why do you keep making this dishonest claim ? Why do you claim to know better than I do what I do and do not like ?

Vayne.8563:

If you want to say I don’t enjoy the combat in Guild Wars 2 so the manifesto isn’t true for me, I support that 100%. Of course, you should have known pretty fast that you don’t like the combat and you six months to get a refund and go play another game, and then by posting here, you’re essentially just being contrary..

Yet again comments about me not liking the combat in GW2 when I have pointed out that this is not the case.

Still I wonder. When I claimed that the grind to get to the fun part of the manifesto is true for some and not true for others you did not support that 100%. You claimed that it was not subjective which means that you were claiming that it was true for everyone. Hardly 100% support for someone saying that it, “isn’t true for me.”

Vayne.8563:

My point is not changed at all by you liking or not liking the combat, nor is it changed by you having fun or not having fun. The point is is that there’s no great change in either case from the day the manifesto was written and published till now.

It might not hold true for someone who doesn’t like what Anet was trying to do…but they did in fact try to do something and continue to try to do it. A manifesto is a statement of intent. They may have failed you specifically, but that’s not a lie, and that’s what’s been implied by many people throughout this thread.

I made no claim that they lied here. I merely stated that this particular aspect was subjective, that some people did have to go through boring grind to get to the fun stuff even if some people did not. You then stated that it was not subjective.

You initially responded to me and my response was to people that were saying Anet lied. If you don’t like the game they produced, that’s perfectly reasonable. But your’e coming into the conversation at the end and trying to shift my point.

My point is people are misquoting and misconstruing that’s there. You’re actually supporting what I"m saying even fi you’re saying it means something else. That’s fine. You’ve helped me greatly with these posts.

Now you’re arguing along different lines that I was arguing originally. I’m quite happy to listen to you say that you think a subjective fun in fact could be an objective fun.

Anet said there would be fun things to do and that combat would be fun. That’s true for lots of people. There is no way conceivable that could be an objective statement and no one could in good conscience take it that way. They created something they felt people would have fun with and enough people do to make me say that’s fine.

Those people who don’t think combat is fun, that’s cool too. I’m sure they can find a game where they think combat is fun. Everyone should then be happy.

You’d need three servers to make Australia a viable place for a server. That’s for WvW. There wouldn’t be enough players to fill three servers and WvW would be even more dead on off hours than it is now.

Those servers would become deserted as those into WvW transferred to other servers to get a decent amount of people.

I’m in Australia and I do just fine, most of the time anyway, playing on the US servers.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

The compromise was to make it so BIS gear wasn’t necessary. That WAS the compromise.

No it was not. That was the state of the game before the claimed compromise was made.

Vayne.8563:

You guys are so fixed on the actual letters BIS, so trained by games where that was an absolutely necessity that you still feel you must have it.

You are mistaken. I have not once pursued BiS in any game where it was, “absolutely necessary.” You have spoken of hyperbole as weakening one’s argument. Might I suggest that either lying or fabricating your supposed facts does the same ?

I believe you’ll find that in 90% plus of MMOs that exist today, you need BIS gear to do some end game content. Not like the fractals either, where you can do “all the fractals” without that gear, just not on the top level.

If you don’t think games have trained people what to expect from new games, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

No, Sir. In order to have fun on your guardian you just have to play the game.

It is a bit odd of you to claim to know what I find fun better than I do. I can assure you that you are wrong.

Vayne.8563:

Again YOU don’t like the combat, so to you, combat is the grind. I LOVE the combat, and so I’m never grinding when I combat.

Again you claim to know what I like/don’t like (you are mistaken).

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff.

And yet sometimes it is.

I did not say anything about vertical progression. I did not say anything about gear grind. I pointed out that this aspect of the manifesto is subjective because one person might not have to grind to get to the fun stuff while another person will. Since fun is subjective the claim that it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff cannot be anything but subjective as well.

It’s not me telling you what to like or not like, you miss the point. Anyone who’s not being disingenuous knows full well that fun is a matter of personal taste. What one person finds fun another person doesn’t.

What you’re doing is trying to say the devs were wrong or misleading for calling their game fun, because you don’t find if fun…specifically the combat in their game. That’s like a company saying their car looks good, and you saying they’re wrong because you don’t like how it looks. Sure you can have a contrary opinion, but it doesn’t mean the company has gone back on it’s word. It’s rather that you just don’t like it.

Now, the thread is about “what ever happened to the manifesto” and the implication in most of the early posts in this thread and indeed some later ones is that Anet has somehow gone back on their word. When in reality what has happened is that a bunch of people have made certain assumptions about what was meant.

If you want to say I don’t enjoy the combat in Guild Wars 2 so the manifesto isn’t true for me, I support that 100%. Of course, you should have known pretty fast that you don’t like the combat and you six months to get a refund and go play another game, and then by posting here, you’re essentially just being contrary.

My point is not changed at all by you liking or not liking the combat, nor is it changed by you having fun or not having fun. The point is is that there’s no great change in either case from the day the manifesto was written and published till now.

It might not hold true for someone who doesn’t like what Anet was trying to do…but they did in fact try to do something and continue to try to do it. A manifesto is a statement of intent. They may have failed you specifically, but that’s not a lie, and that’s what’s been implied by many people throughout this thread.

Sirendor.1394:

Breaks my heart to see everyone vs. Vayne, it’s like World vs. World in the forums. O_O I’m sure Vayne will come out on top though.

The funny bit is I don’t have to come out on top…because I can never “win” any argument here. It’s enough that newer posters realize that an argument exists. Then they can make up their own minds.

I mean if a bunch of posters, many of whom no longer play the game, share an opinion on something, it’s logical they’ll all agree. It’s not always obvious it’s just an opinion without a dissenting view.

morrolan.9608:

Aeonblade.8709:

Well said. There isn’t enough difference between gear tiers to justify the mind numbing months long grind for it.

That is the point of it but also the problem. Arenanet wanted a grind to give a particular player segment something to do but they also wanted to make sure that any stat increase was quite low to not annoy the horizontal progression segment. In reality what has happened is that both segments have become annoyed cause you can’t please both.

But what are the alternatives? No stat increase and an entire segment is disenfranchised. Big stat increase and another entire segment is disenfranchised.

That’s why they compromised and I don’t believe that the biggest percentage of people are disappointed with it. I’d have been far more disappointed if the stat difference was huge. As it is, I’m quite happy, because I know I don’t need that armor.

It’s all a question of percentages. There’s got to be some threshold. Anet certainly annoyed a percentage of each camp, but what size percent and how annoyed they are will tell the real story. If they chose right, most people will stay and play. If they chose wrong…well that would be unfortunate.

Machiavel.6042:

It sucks, always did in fact, but since I have nothing else to play…

I kinda get tired to breed eggs in Pokemon Y, so here’s a brain-dead game for ya !

I still come back from time to time, since I have that masochistic pleasure of looking at that shameful “game of the year” for so many. Truly sad, but hey, that’s life for you. I want it to be a good game (not a great one, just a good one, see ?) but we all know it’s not. No matter what the devs say about it. You failed, big time, guys. Oh, sure, you’re racking up cash from fools and fan-boys (you ain’t all like that, slow down you crazy lunatics), but from a gamer’s point of view ? Nope.

So you’re a gamer, because you don’t like it and people who like it aren’t gamers, is that your argument? Just checking.

Well, see that’s the fallacy. Anet has said that they’re quite happy with the numbers of people logging in for this new stuff. If it wasn’t working, one would think they’d not use it. But it clearly is working.

If you were a business and started doing something that costs money (and clearly having four teams working on living story does cost money) and it wasn’t paying off, wouldn’t you change it? Of course you would.

Anet did change it. They went from one month releases to two week releases, because it gets people playing and excited it works.

I’d sure trust Anet’s metrics over the observations of any single person on the forums. Metrics aren’t always 100% but they’re sure better than annecdotal evidence supplied by random forum users.

DeWolfe.2174:

Vayne.8563:

I believe more people in Guild Wars 2 actually play what they want, rather than min-max…but the min-maxers as a unified group are far more visible.

See… that’s what the talk over Zerker is right now, we aren’t. It’s min-max all the way in PvE. Thus, there is only one role really.

Well I think that’s my point. The people who talk about stuff like that in forums are min-maxers. However, we also know, from experience not just here, but elsewhere, that only a tiny percentage of the player base every visit the forums and only a small percentage of the people who visit post.

I don’t min/max AT ALL. So what am I going to post. I’d recommend playing this build because I find it fun?

There’s no real point in posting that since it’s completely subjective. I have a guild of 150 people and I think maybe three guys min/max….maybe. And not even them fully. Most of the guild isn’t working zerker gear, I know that for a fact.

It’s just not that kind of guild. And none of them post on forums but me.

Ashen.2907:

Subdue.5479:

without taking away whatever you’d like to name the group of players you belong to wanted

To have BiS gear be easily attainable without grinding for it.

Except that such was taken away. Not much of a compromise when one side had what they wanted taken away without gaining anything. Pretty much the antithesis of what the word means actually.

The compromise was to make it so BIS gear wasn’t necessary. That WAS the compromise. It give those who wanted something to work for something to work for. You guys are so fixed on the actual letters BIS, so trained by games where that was an absolutely necessity that you still feel you must have it.

That fixation isn’t written in stone. I used to like BIS gear too…I adapted, since I saw it wasn’t necessary for anything I needed to do.

Skan.5301:

TChalla.7146:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

I especially like how you skipped over the getting to level 15 to do it part and went straight for the combat.

Indeed a nice job. But do follow through on all points of a post, not just the one you can defend the best.

And yes. I do like how for 90% of the game’s content, I can stack and repeatedly hit my 1 key and then 2 – 5 as a refresher every 30s. And when I see red circles beneath me, I double tap my movement keys to dodge. AND THEN! Back to beloved stacking and 1 key serial abuse. It has revolutionized combat so much. Because sometimes, I can even hit 1 and AFK for a few minutes and answer a text, type an email, check Facebook, or even make a phone call. Free my hands.

I didn’t realize that you had to be level 15 to join in on the Shadow Behemoth. Does that boss lock you out if you’re below level 15? If not, then why couldn’t you do it before then?

Like Indigo said, doing it below the level equates tons of frustration and kitten rewards, if you do enough damage to even get the chest. Neither of which are much “fun”.

But that wasn’t the case when the manifesto was written. The change to this wasn’t ANet going back on a promise. The change that made it this way was Anet, get this, LISTENING to their fan base, who said that meta events should reward people better. Anet listened. If you don’t think people were asking for better rewards for metas and champions you weren’t paying much attention.

So for months after launch, you could do it and get credit for it. There weren’t even timer sites back then.

Now it’s another situation but did that make the manifesto a lie? No, Anet responded to the requests of the player base.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff.

Then he would be wrong according to my example right ?

Playing through those 80 levels would be a boring grind to get to what is fun.

Only if Arah were the only fun stuff in the game. Again, he’s not saying you don’t have to level to get to ALL the fun stuff. He’s saying fun stuff is there right from the beginning. I know this because it was reiterated several times afterwards at conventions. That’s what he meant.

You can twist it any way you want, but it’s not reasonable to assume that you can do everything when you start..there would be some skill progression involved at very least. One part of the game trains you to play the next part of the game. That’s why there are harder and easier zones. No one could start the game and do Lupi on day one. It would be impossible.

But he said there’s fun stuff to do right away, not that all fun stuff can be done right away. You’re deliberately misinterpreting it to try to make a point.

I am not misinterpreting anything. My statement is very simple as is my example. In order to do what would be fun on my guardian I would have to endure boring grind. Period. Leveling him is a boring grind, and nothing in the game at his current level is fun. Technically the lower level dungeons might substitute for Arah or HotW (my personal favorite) but in order to do ANY of the fun things, ANY AT ALL, requires boring grind first in order to get to it.

No, Sir. In order to have fun on your guardian you just have to play the game. Again YOU don’t like the combat, so to you, combat is the grind. I LOVE the combat, and so I’m never grinding when I combat.

He was talking about the way people view combat. That’s it. He’s saying it’s no longer a grind to get to fun stuff. Now you can disagree with him by saying you personally don’t like the combat, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s not talking about vertical progression and he’s not talking about gear grind, which is what most people are trying to say.

He’s actually talking about the combat itself being fun. Which means either Anet was or wasn’t successful in doing that, but they certainly were saying that.

I think enough people find the combat fun in this game that you couldn’t call them on lying. The most you could do is say that you don’t find it fun, and that’s perfectly fine. Not everyone will connect with every game.

But that’s not what people have been saying in this thread.

Skan.5301:

Vayne.8563:

This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

I still have to get to level 15. Even though 99% of that encounter is stand in one place and abuse the 1 key.

Yep, you’re still missing the point. You might not personally like the combat, but compared to combat in most MMOs, this is like a breath of fresh air. You’re not stuck standing in one place casting, you’re actively moving and dodging and you know, when the manifesto was made that wasn’t very common. This is why Colin said we want to change the way people view combat.

Lots of people love the combat in this game.

Those who don’t? Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it doesn’t make the manifesto a untrue.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff.

Then he would be wrong according to my example right ?

Playing through those 80 levels would be a boring grind to get to what is fun.

Only if Arah were the only fun stuff in the game. Again, he’s not saying you don’t have to level to get to ALL the fun stuff. He’s saying fun stuff is there right from the beginning. I know this because it was reiterated several times afterwards at conventions. That’s what he meant.

You can twist it any way you want, but it’s not reasonable to assume that you can do everything when you start..there would be some skill progression involved at very least. One part of the game trains you to play the next part of the game. That’s why there are harder and easier zones. No one could start the game and do Lupi on day one. It would be impossible.

But he said there’s fun stuff to do right away, not that all fun stuff can be done right away. You’re deliberately misinterpreting it to try to make a point.

Ashen.2907:

In my experience GW2 is closer to other MMOs than some people claim, but not as close as others argue. It does seem closer now than at launch and seems to be getting closer over time.

This is a fair statement. But the core things that separate it from most MMOs are still very much there.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

It’s about fun things to do without grinding to get to them.

So if I want to play through Arah explorable (a fun thing) with my level 11 Guardian (leveling him is a grind) I can ?

Or would I have to grind to get to the fun thing ?

See, the whole argument about the Manifesto is subjective. The people arguing that it was not delivered upon are every bit as correct as you are in claiming that it has.

Actually it’s not subjective. He’s not saying that you can do everything fun in the game from the moment you launch. He’s saying you don’t have to get through 80 levels of boring grind to get to fun stuff. This is why they put encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in starting areas.

And remember, it wasn’t a zerg thing when this game launched. Before they gave guaranteed rares, those encounters were fun. People demanded better rewards and Anet gave them to them.

But the core concept of the piece, we want to change the way people view combat hasn’t changed at all. The same sorts of things you do at level 80 you can do at level 30.

Henri Blanche.8276:

Vayne.8563:

They created a single new tier of gear, and that’s it. That’s not changing everything completely. They didn’t make it so anyone actually needs that tier of gear, like other games do.

And so if in the upcoming weeks Berserker is no longer BiS no one will have any complaints because no one actually needs BiS.

People will always have complaints. Those who have no reason to complain will complain about the complainers. This is what it is to be human.

If you delete all your characters, you can trasfer for free. But you have to delete them all.
Your account wallet and bank stay with you…however any guild influence or the guild bank will not.

So if you have a personal guild bank, empty it first.

Kevan.8912:

bannex.1923:

I like this game. Its fun. For a 1 yr old mmo it has TONS of promise and longevity. Most ppl that don’t like this game are just uncomfortable with how different it is compared to more traditional MMOs.

no. it’s the opposite.
some people don’t like it no more because it’s becoming too similar to that traditional mmos.

Only Guild Wars 1 fans think it’s similar to other MMOs. I’ve been in both games. This game is worlds apart from other MMOs.

Kevan.8912:

Subdue.5479:

However, while A.Net may have wanted to develop a purely horizontal game, the fact of the matter is that the majority of the player base, and most likely those player that were more prone to spending on gems, wanted something to work towards.

yeah. you are right.
it’s what they did. they changed everything they talked about at launch to appeal a new population which appeared a better investment.
greed and economy. i’m sure they’re right. gw2 is money not philosophy and coherence.

still, i have my own interests and will never login again.
and i really do hope i wont be the only.

Subdue.5479:

Oh, I almost forgot to address your question. What is hardcore? Hardcore is spending 2-3 doing the various activities associated with achieving long term in game goals – high level fractals, ascended gear, legendaries, etc.

i think you’re looking in the wrong place for “hardcore”, as i don’t see any here.
if it’s no more tha casual game, it will never be the hardcore game.
as they try to make happy so different kinds of players, no chance they could satisfy everybody in the same time.
but, you know. money is good, no matter whence it comes.
good luck

No, they didn’t change everything talked about at launch. That’s not true. They made a compromise, which didn’t change it completely.

They created a single new tier of gear, and that’s it. That’s not changing everything completely. They didn’t make it so anyone actually needs that tier of gear, like other games do.

And the game was advertised on many things, not just this one issue. Maybe they’ve changed a tiny percent of what they said before launch, but there are people who refuse to recognize this.

DeWolfe.2174:

Maybe, just maybe, there was a reason the trinity existed for so long and in so many games? Getting rid of it completely might not have been a good idea for an RPG? Which I find interesting is that Anet is advertising GW2 as an MMO only now. The RPG is even missing on ads now.

Most RPGs existed without the Trinity…mostly MMOs have the trinity. It’s not necessary for an RPG and I even argue it’s killed the whole concept of what an RPG should be.

When you funnel people into roles, you take away their freedom.

Those who focus on mechanics, will always take the most efficient route.

Those who focus on role-playing (the root of the words RPG), will take the route that they enjoy the most.

I believe more people in Guild Wars 2 actually play what they want, rather than min-max…but the min-maxers as a unified group are far more visible.

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

I didn’t mean to say that everything Anet does to please various groups should be fair game. I’m simply saying that in and out itself, it’s not wrong to please various groups if you can.

The real issues, of course, come when pleasing one group completely disenfranchises another.

i think they already evaluated that risk….and made their choices.
too late.

Well it depends on the actual size of that group…or a comparison between the two groups.

We may never know..but I’m pretty sure Anet has a better idea of this than we do.

of course they have. but of course players have their good ideas too
and for some of that “at risk” population it’s too late.

I agree…it is too late for some of them. And you know, the game’s population seems pretty good to me. Maybe Anet was right.

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

I didn’t mean to say that everything Anet does to please various groups should be fair game. I’m simply saying that in and out itself, it’s not wrong to please various groups if you can.

The real issues, of course, come when pleasing one group completely disenfranchises another.

i think they already evaluated that risk….and made their choices.
too late.

Well it depends on the actual size of that group…or a comparison between the two groups.

We may never know..but I’m pretty sure Anet has a better idea of this than we do.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

I didn’t mean to say that everything Anet does to please various groups should be fair game. I’m simply saying that in and out itself, it’s not wrong to please various groups if you can.

The real issues, of course, come when pleasing one group completely disenfranchises another.

Curious as to what has led you to believe that catering to as many groups as possible is a good thing?

What leads you to believe it’s a bad thing?

The idea is like this. A big game with lots of updates in this climate and day particularly needs a lot of players. If I wanted to play a single player game, I wouldn’t need an MMO. There are far better single player games to play.

MMOs can shoot for a smaller audience, and charge a monthly fee or go pay to win, or they can target a larger audience and try to offer something for everyone.

I doubt any ambitious MMO today is going to ignore PvPers say, at the expense of PvE’ers. Even games which have no relationship to PvP (like ESO) will launch with PvP in game. Why? It’s not what the franchise was built on.

To attract more players.

So many businesses today diversify. It brings in more money which more creates more stability and certainty. All your eggs aren’t in one basket that way.

Anyway, I like a bit of everything. I like doing different things at different times. I like the variety. If this game was just filled with hard core challenging things for that crowd, I wouldn’t play it, even though I sometimes like to do challenging content. I like that it’s there.

It’s true it will never be as good for hard core players as a game that focuses on hard core challenges…but then I don’t believe that MMOs that focus on that are viable long term…or will have enough money to continue to produce content.

And I think we can all agree that an MMO that stops producing content starts to die at that moment.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

You’re right in saying that Guild Wars 2 seems to have no real direction. That’s what happens when you have 300 people developing.

No, that’s what happens when those in charge lack direction and/or leadership.

So this line that I wrote doesn’t matter?

“Guild Wars 2 probably needs someone with vision, a central director actually directing. I’m not feeling it has that.”

You’re so intent on contradicting me that even when I say what you’re saying, you still contradict me. lol

I’m just underscoring the idea that strong leadership can keep 300 developers all moving as a cohesive unit. Don’t take things too personal.

That’s why I said Guild Wars 2 needs someone a vision…a central director.

I don’t really take anything said on these forums personally, but there are a lot of people who want to contradict what I say pretty much immediately, just because I’ve said it. Happens all the time, here.

One of the reasons I post here a lot less. I’m getting a much better response elsewhere, where I don’t have the reputation I do here.

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

I didn’t mean to say that everything Anet does to please various groups should be fair game. I’m simply saying that in and out itself, it’s not wrong to please various groups if you can.

The real issues, of course, come when pleasing one group completely disenfranchises another.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Ferik.3127:

Vayne.8563:

Ferik.3127:

~

~.

~

You made a statement that is directly and demonstrably not true. That statement doesn’t offend me. I’m simply pointing out the wording is wrong.

Vayne,
It’s something you are now doing for a pretty long time here in the forums. Every time somebody uses a hyperbole you pretty much accuse him of lying.

Yeah when he says ‘everybody’ it’s not literally everybody. He first pretty much says that Anet tries to please everybody (Hyperbole alert!) and then that they end up disappointing everybody (hyperbole). So it means “many people” and many is subjective.

I quote from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
“Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.”

He did not make a statement that is ‘not true’ you did read a hyperbole literally and you should not have read it literally. Thats where it go’s wrong. His statement becomes ‘not true’ at the moment you read a hyperbole literally.

I’ve never hid the fact that I don’t like hyperbole because it doesn’t strengthen arguments. Nor does it effectively communicate ideas. In fact, it weakens arguments because they’re easy to dismiss for anyone who does take them literally.

It’s not a mistake to stand up against hyperbole. The use of hyperbole to try to fix this game is precisely the kind of thing that someone looking at a thread might overlook.

Many good threads will end up getting ignored because of the overuse of hyperbole. Why make a strong point easy to dismiss?

“In fact, it weakens arguments because they’re easy to dismiss for anyone who does take them literally.”
Well there are indeed always people who do dismiss it by taking it literally however personally I then don’t see that reaction as very valid. As it is very easy to dismiss pointing out that it’s a hyperbole.

Why focus on that word ‘everybody’ if you know it’s a hyperbole. React mainly on the content not on that one world. No offense but I see that type of defense weak and not helping to the discussion.

You could have reacted mainly on the content and said something like "btw, I don’t like you use the word “everybody” even if it’s a hyperbole" but in stead the main discussion is about that one world losing the whole content.

You see it in politics when the party that is not right wants to deflect from the content. Not saying that you are not right but just as you don’t like hyperboles I don’t like it if people focus on such a hyperbole by taking it literally and so pretty much making the content second while it should be first.

Anyway thats what I had to say about it and I don’t want to kidnap this thread any more to discuss about hyperboles.

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

You’re right in saying that Guild Wars 2 seems to have no real direction. That’s what happens when you have 300 people developing.

No, that’s what happens when those in charge lack direction and/or leadership.

So this line that I wrote doesn’t matter?

“Guild Wars 2 probably needs someone with vision, a central director actually directing. I’m not feeling it has that.”

You’re so intent on contradicting me that even when I say what you’re saying, you still contradict me. lol

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

Many good threads will end up getting ignored because of the overuse of hyperbole. Why make a strong point easy to dismiss?

it’s not a matter of communication.
many good threads end up ignored because Anet wants to ignore it.
i think that the ideas are well explained…and explained a sufficient number of times.
simply, devs have their own ideas.

That doesn’t mean they ignore the threads though. There’s a huge difference between kowtowing to what others want, well explained or not, and ignoring a thread. I have kids. My kids have complained about things that aren’t going to change. If they don’t change it doesn’t mean I’m ignoring their complaints. I’m just not making changes they’re requesting. Big difference.

But there are threads that will get ignored because of how they’re phrased and how they come off. This is just basic human nature.

If you’ve ever been in a writing critique group, you’d see that there are ways to offer criticism. You’re usually instructed to start by saying something you liked about the piece, before you actually get to the criticism. Because the initial very human response to criticism is resistance.

So those who complain a certain way, are far less likely to get heard/seen/response than those who criticize in other ways.

Just as I’m sure some people have dismissed me and stopped reading my posts because of how I respond, I’m just as sure people who see the game a certain way don’t take what you have to say seriously because you’re banging a drum even in threads that have nothing to do with the drum you’re banging. We get it. You don’t like vertical progression. We understand. You want horizontal progression.

It’s too bad the way you come off is less likely to make a positive impression in the game, because your ideas aren’t bad ones.

Cut scenes were a thing in Guild Wars 1 missions too, and people had to watch them if everyone didn’t press skip. That’s nothing new to the genre. Story mode dungeons are some of my favorite dungeons in the game, because I don’t play specifically for reward. I’ve done each story mode dungeon multiple times. I’ve also done each explorable mode dungeon multiple times. Well far more. It doesn’t invalidate story mode dungeons.

Anet never said to my knowledge (and I pay a lot of attention) that there would never be an LFG tool. I have no idea where you got that from.

The comparison of events to say quests in other games well…quests in other games aren’t repeatable at all, and thus generally not farmable. You do a quest once, generally, and it goes away, except for certain daily quests in some games.

The dynamic event system makes the world feel more alive than traditional MMOs because there is a reason to go back to an early zone and when you do, stuff is already happening. You don’t have to wait to trigger a quest, or go into an area where there are no quests. You know those centaurs? They really are attacking outposts. NPC’s are dying. You can rez them and get involved or not. This is different from almost every other MMO out there, most of which have completely dead worlds.

You’re right in saying that Guild Wars 2 seems to have no real direction. That’s what happens when you have 300 people developing.

Guild Wars 2 probably needs someone with vision, a central director actually directing. I’m not feeling it has that.

But some of the specific complaints you’ve made are the very things that keep me playing this game.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Ferik.3127:

Vayne.8563:

Ferik.3127:

~

~.

~

You made a statement that is directly and demonstrably not true. That statement doesn’t offend me. I’m simply pointing out the wording is wrong.

Vayne,
It’s something you are now doing for a pretty long time here in the forums. Every time somebody uses a hyperbole you pretty much accuse him of lying.

Yeah when he says ‘everybody’ it’s not literally everybody. He first pretty much says that Anet tries to please everybody (Hyperbole alert!) and then that they end up disappointing everybody (hyperbole). So it means “many people” and many is subjective.

I quote from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
“Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.”

He did not make a statement that is ‘not true’ you did read a hyperbole literally and you should not have read it literally. Thats where it go’s wrong. His statement becomes ‘not true’ at the moment you read a hyperbole literally.

I’ve never hid the fact that I don’t like hyperbole because it doesn’t strengthen arguments. Nor does it effectively communicate ideas. In fact, it weakens arguments because they’re easy to dismiss for anyone who does take them literally.

It’s not a mistake to stand up against hyperbole. The use of hyperbole to try to fix this game is precisely the kind of thing that someone looking at a thread might overlook.

Many good threads will end up getting ignored because of the overuse of hyperbole. Why make a strong point easy to dismiss?

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

People hanging on every single word and then misinterpreting what was said based on their own preconceptions happened.

There is NO mention of gear grind or vertical progression in the manifesto video. None at all. The only way you could possibly think it was mentioned is to ignore everything around it.

What happened is people placed their own definition of grind into the manifesto and decided that’s what Colin meant when he was talking about grind, when in reality Colin already defined what he was talking about…and later clarified it in other places.

And you’re once again focusing on the narrow-scope of the Manifesto rather than the spirit behind it AND the interviews and blogs that were released. I understand why you’d use such a tactic, as your position becomes much less tenable when looking at the big picture. Just know the Manifesto doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

Sorry mate, but this thread is about the manifesto, not about other interviews. The SPIRIT of the manifesto, what it was REALLY talking about, has not changed, other than one single line about Guild Wars 1. One line. Period. The rest of the spirit of the manifesto, completely 100% unchanged. What was it saying, the manifesto video itself, not anything else, because this thread isn’t about anything else.

It’s about fun things to do without grinding to get to them. In later weeks and months after the manifesto was published, Colin used the Shadow Behemoth and an example of what he meant. Is that in the game? Check.

It’s about active/dynamic combat, where you have to move around instead of standing there casting. Is that in the game? Check.

It’s about beautiful, detailed, rich environments. Is that in the game? In spades.

It’s about dynamic events and personal story…both of which are in the game.

There is a single line, a throwaway marketing line, that couldn’t possibly have ever stood up to scrutiny….“everything you love about Guild Wars 1”. Everything else in the MANIFESTO is there.

The spirit of the manifesto hasn’t changed. You take away the ideas players have superimposed over it, based on other stuff said and the manifesto…that’s still there.

There are maybe, MAYBE five other quotes over years and years and years of promotions which have changed completely. Yes, we all know they’ve changed. Every single person in this forums should know by now that those things have changed.

But then no one quotes Eric Flannum saying there would be stuff for people to grind for for those who like that play style. No one quotes the iteration passages.

Vertical progression existed in this game at launch. Things to grind for, including power, existed in Guild Wars 1 before the manifesto was ever made.

Yes, things have changed, but not nearly as much as people think they have.

And a lot of the changes were annouced long before launch and people knew about them and bought the game anyway.

The spirit of the manifesto itself? That’s not changed at all.

fadeaway.2807:

There’s really no need to get personal and start insulting me.
It’s quite obvious that there’s a grind, as per the original post.
You cannot do 49 without at least ascended trinkets and a high cost backpiece, which require a grind.

The block didn’t stop a lot of people.

Yes, the fractals were designed to give people who like to grind something to work towards. It was the entire purpose. The grind was an intentional design decisions for the fractals.

This is why the level 48 reward and the reward for levels above that were equal.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?

I play these two games pretty much the same way. What we got, from my point of view, was the feel of the world. This world feels to me like that world…and that’s no small thing.

I was an achievement hunter there and I’m an achievement hunter here. That could be part of it. I was grinding achievements in Guild Wars 1 that killed me. The way mapping worked there…scrapping the edge of every zone…ridiculous…but I did it.

I do miss Vanquishing, but I knew in an open world game with respawns that wouldn’t be possible.

In Guild Wars 1 damage mitigation was stronger than healing and the same is true in Guild Wars 2. Neither had ways to hold aggro (there’s no taunt mechanism here, unlike most MMOs). In fact, neither had a true trinity.

I’ve been playing some Guild Wars 1 lately, helping some Guildies through the game and though the mechanics themselves have changed greatly (and I wouldn’t give up jumping again or go back to a more pathed version of the game), the feel I get while playing the two games isn’t really all that different.

I have seen the wp system and lack of aggro systems in other games so these arn’t unique to gw.

Even gw2 dynamic event’s, knights online, perhaps one of the first mmos had a variation of those.(I know not in gw1 but just saying) same with the aggro.

I don’t get the feeling you do that the world is the same, i loved places like slavers exile, the deep, fow and uw, i still play gw1 the guild im in has a full alliance and we do still play this content and pvp.

I miss heros when i log into gw2 and being fully in control of how a dungeon etc will go,
i do pug some dungeons in gw2, some peeps wont, gw1 you don’t have that problem, i wish there was more from the original game, perhaps more things will be implemented given time, i can only hope, but i did expect more than we got.

See, I don’t consider elite instance the world. To me, Kryta feels sort of like Kryta, you know?

I get the whole missing heroes thing, but since I played with guilds and we almost always had enough in Guild Wars 1 for live parties, that didn’t vary much for me either.