Guild Wars 2

While I agree it would be nice to fight more elder dragons, other things happen in the world. The elder dragons are still local in a sense. If you read Destiny’s Edge you’d get this.

Zhaitan was the dragon bothering the Tarnished Coast and Kryta. Other dragons invaded different areas. The Krytans aren’t straight up affected by Jormag at all. He’s up in the Northern Shiverpeakes.

They’ve just had a major war against the dragons, one would think there would be time to celebrate and or deal with other matters. It’s not like other things aren’t problems too.

Take the alliance between the Flame Legion and the Dredge. That’s a problem. And a more immediate problem than the elder dragons, who are dangerous, but not quite as active.

That’s the in game explanation. But the dragon scenarios will take time to create and other projects are being worked on.

I know everyone wants everything NOW, but that’s not the reality of programming or game creation.

Guild Wars 2, like just about every MMO in recent memory, released far too early (the exception was Rift which was relatively small at launch). The game needs to be worked on BEFORE another dragon is worked on.

The Living Story is filler content to keep people playing. Nothing more. There’s no monthly fee. If you don’t like what you see, take a break until the next dragon comes out.

But don’t blame the living story because programming stuff takes time, or because the game needs to be strengthened before it moves on.

Even from a story telling point of view it’s important for everything not to be epic.

holodoc.5748:

But what ANet could do is implement the exchange system which worked so well in the original Guild Wars. This system required of players to both confirm their exchanged/received items before the actual exchange was done. It worked flawlessly with exactly zero scam potential except in cases where players were extremely incautious.

Why they don’t do it in GW2 I can only guess but if I had to place my bet its simply because ANet doesn’t want people to circumvent trading post taxes etc.

There were myriad scams in the original guild wars. That’s why Anet went away from player to player trading. Look it up. Scams were rampant.

I don’t play without auto attack, because if I spammed the 1 skill manually, I’d end up with carpal tunnel syndrome. I probably would anyway.

To those who don’t get what the OP is saying, he’s turned off auto attack in his game options, so he manually uses every skill, including the 1 skill, with an actual key press.

I agree the combat would feel more in control. I could brag about it to the surgeons who’d have to sew my finger back on. lol

pricer.5091:

Vayne.8563:

And a lot of people didn’t find that particularly fun, so Anet changed it. But until the guaranteed rare for meta events, those events were fun.

They are not fun now. We are discussing the game now.

Because I’m not standing in one place swinging a sword. I’m swinging a sword, I’m using an off hand weapon, I’m swapping weapons, I’m using my profession mechanic, I’m using utility skills, I’m using environmental weapons.

Let me guess? Because Colin said “swinging a sword” this does not count if you are swinging a scepter and focus?

To me, and many others, the combat system is better and more fun than most MMOs.

Good Im happy for you, although what it has to do with the failure of the game to live up to its promises I have no idea. To me and many others it isn’t. Are we going to next argue about whether someones failure to like cheese is a failure of the cheese designer?

If it’s not better and more fun to you, I’m sure you can find an MMO to play that you like.

I can and will. Sadly, this doesn’t prevent me being entitled to have an opinion on this one.

As I said THOSE events are not fun now, but many OTHER events are fun. Did you somehow get from the manifesto that every single second you play will be fun or equally fun? Because you’re losing credibility by the second.

The combat system isn’t just swinging a sword, since you can dodge in this game (and you can’t in most others). So dodging isn’t swinging a sword. Using environmental weapons isn’t swinging a sword either. He’s talking about making combat fun, and whether you personally like it or not, enough people think the combat in this game is fun, compared to the combat in most MMOs.

Colin (paraphrased): We want people to have fun with the combat. We want them to start having fun earlier in the game instead of grinding to get to the fun stuff. We want to change the way people view combat.

You personally may not like the combat, but that’s not a broken promise on the part of the devs. That’s a matter of personal taste.

Mathias.9657:

The fanboi is strong with this one lol. I don’t care who you talk to Vayne, I aced English and Colin said what he said, you just throw your own silly interpretation in there and call it fact. I want whatever pixie dust you’re on.

I’ll give you an example of how ludicrous you sound. Colin: “I like potatoes.” Vayne: “Clearly he meant cherries, trust me I studied English and I talk to news reporters”

Whatever was said in that manifesto is 100% lies and deceit. End of story. GG no re

Acing English doesn’t make you a professional editor. Address what I’ve said. If Colin says, in most games you get THIS boring grind to get to the fun stuff and MOMENTS later he says, we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2, on what planet do you not associate those two things.

I know a whole lot of people who aced English who don’t know how to read.

I think the OP has a valid point, but may not take it far enough.

I think we need build templates that swap everything at the same time, including weapons, all utility skills including healing and elites, and traits.

There are a lot of people who follow the meta events around. Because they’re all in one place at one time, you might think that the majority of the playerbase does that. Most people do some of those events when they come up some of the time, but most don’t farm them continually. Theyr’e a great thing to do between fractal runs, WvW, and other content, including the Living Story content which now comes out every two weeks.

Saying that a bunch of people were waiting for the maw means that’s the end game is like saying there’s no one playing WvW, which clearly isn’t the case, at least on my server.

It’s like saying no one runs dungeons (but my guild does). It’s like saying no one runs fractals, but some people do. It’s like saying no one does guild missions (but my guild did two of them today).

And of course, lots and lots of people do the living story. If you don’t believe it, log in on July 9th patch day, and head to where the action is.

You’ll see people playing the game.

pricer.5091:

I didnt say I found dungeons “fun stuff”. In fact I havent found any “fun stuff”. And Shadow Behemoth? Really? If that isn’t “swinging a sword again and again” then I really dont know what game you are playing. I killed it literally hundreds of times by standing in the same spot, pressing one and not moving. “Fun stuff”? Really?

To me, there is literally nothing in this game that isn’t “swinging a sword again and again”. If its different for you….I’m really happy for you.

Again, what those meta events became later was NOT what those meta events were at launch. When you visited the fire elemental in Metrica, all you saw were dead players everywhere. It was HARD.

And a lot of people didn’t find that particularly fun, so Anet changed it. But until the guaranteed rare for meta events, those events were fun.

Now if you don’t personally find the game fun, that’s fair enough. Go find a game you do have fun, but this game and those encounters as they were at launch were fun for a whole lot of people. And while the meta events are no longer fun, there are plenty of other events that are fun for me.

Because I’m not standing in one place swinging a sword. I’m swinging a sword, I’m using an off hand weapon, I’m swapping weapons, I’m using my profession mechanic, I’m using utility skills, I’m using environmental weapons.

To me, and many others, the combat system is better and more fun than most MMOs. If it’s not better and more fun to you, I’m sure you can find an MMO to play that you like.

pricer.5091:

Vayne.8563:

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

Now context means reading the first part and associating with with the second part. Colin is DEFINING what he means by grind in this pargraph. In most games there’s this boring grind to get to the fun stuff…when he says we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2, and then says three sentences later we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2, it’s obviously liked to what he said in the first instance of the use of the word grind.

In MMO parlance, grinding orginally meant killing mobs to gain experience to level. It’s come to mean other things which is WHY Anet took the time to define it within the manifesto. You can ignore if if you like but don’t complain when you take a single sentence out of context and try to assign a different context to it.

Even allowing that you are correct. Here is the real meat and potatoes of the statement: “In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2.”

How is there not a boring grind to get to “the fun stuff”. If you want to do dungeons you must “grind” to get to the requisite level to enter said dungeon. If you want to do fractals, then you can do them from level 1…good luck with that. If you want to do fractals over level 15 or so you will need agony resist which means you must “grind” until you get to level 80. If you consider the “fun stuff” to be gathering weapon skins you must “grind” until your will to live falls out of your ears.

I guess it depends on what you consider the “fun stuff” right?

“I swung a sword, I swung it again.” Where is this fun stuff that is not about “swinging a sword again and again”? Is it the bit where you must hammer in a fence post again and again? Is it dungeons with HP Sponge bosses? Is it attempting to gather enough mats to make something you would like? Because the whole game is about swinging a sword (or whatever other weapon you are carrying) again and again. If not…tell me where?

So even assuming that your analysis of Colins statement is true. It is still, to a lot of people, wrong. You are not one of these people clearly, but they are out there, they are in high numbers and they are bored.

I can’t wait to find out what the 9th introduces because having once again gone from having gold to having none attempting to get a precursor, if it more of the same I am finally going to delete the game and my account and go back to a game where it does exactly what it says on the box.

I can’t believe this is so hard to understand. Dungeons are not the only fun stuff in the game, even if they’re the only fun stuff TO YOU.

He’s talking about most games (which I think most people would take to mean most MMOs). At the time this was made, just about every MMO on the market had people leveling as fast as they could to get to raiding. The big exciting stuff was all at the end.

This was even explained by Anet after the manifesto. I mean why does Anet put the Shadow Behemoth in a 1-15 zone. Because you can have exciting stuff all the way throughout. And before the free yellows, it was an exciting encounter. Maybe you don’t remember that, but I do.

That’s the same thing they were saying when they said there was no end game. They said basically you’d be doing the same sorts of thing at end game that you do leveling up, which for some of us is refreshing. I don’t buy games to play one game for leveling and then a raiding game after. I don’t like or desire raiding. I don’t even particularly like dungeons.

So for me, for players like me, this statement holds completely 100% true. I’ve never had a better leveling experience than I had in this game, and I continue to visit old zones and do events and enjoy them at max level.

The crux of that statement is 100% true for me.

Primernova.5791:

Vayne.8563:

Primernova.5791:

Erasculio.2914:

Primernova.5791:

NOT an MMORPG.

Of course it’s a MMORPG.

Do you know why no one stopped to play with you after the event ended?

Because no one wanted to.

MMORPGs give people the option of playing with others. This does not mean people want to play with others all the time, or even most of the time.

I often see forumers demanding ArenaNet to make grouping with other players a requirement. Which is rather ironic – those demands come from forumers who don’t understand that people don’t want to play with them, and whose complaints are basically a way to try to force people to play with them.

Yeah bro, no one wanted to play with me…

That has to be it.

What should I have done in a zerg, that no one speaks to eachother in, has no damage meter, tanking or healing; to stand out as Rudolph the kittening Reindeer?

I’m in a guild, I have run zergs with them too, we just banter but run as our own zerg. Is that what you mean?

Not an MMORPG.

So guilds dont’ get together to WvW in numbers? That sounds a whole lot like an MMORPG to me.

When my guild does guild missions with 15-30 people at the same time, that’s not an MMO?

Maybe you should look MMO up online, I’m not sure it means what you think it means.

It means exactly what I know it means. Zergs are a snorefest. The outdoor (PVE/WvW) ‘grouping’ system in this game is nice, but all we do is safely DPS, until the mobs and boss are dead! The dungeon system is on a third party website, so no one even looks for groups in game anymore.

MMOs are about standing out for your effort, networking, being helpful and learning to play.

I started this hobby in EQ1. Played AO along side of EQ1 (actually met my wife there in that awful grouping system, that gave MMOs instances and flight) and EnB after that where guilds and grouping were very coordinated. Played FFXI for years too, but that was a bit over the top… And, of course WoW from launch, mostly raid healing or DPS.

This system is a hyper-casual, zergfest. It’s not an MMO. So much is lost in translation from old MMOs to what we have now. Old school was too grindy and painful, I spent 2 months grinding lv40 in EQ1@KFC. Yes, that was over the top. The current version of MMOs, need a new name. It’s single player, it’s boring, it’s grindy and it’s killing the genre.

A balance must be struck.

So your definition of an MMO is based on what MMO meant 12 years ago? Okay now I understand better.

This is not a HARD CORE MMO. This isn’t like EQ where you wait around for days for a boss to spawn and call up your friends in the middle of the night to get online because if you miss it it won’t spawn for another month. It’s a different game for a different time.

Your rather hard core view of what an MMO should be is just that…your hard core view. It doesn’t fit most MMOs coming out today and I don’t think it’s likely to fit most MMOs coming out in the future.

If I wanted a second job, I’d go out and get one.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Normally in most games, when you kill ten centaurs, there are still more centaurs right there. In Guild Wars 2, at least in most DEs, if the centaurs are attacking they get driven off. The the ogre quest with the harpies, if you defeat the harpies, a different creature inhabits the pond, until the harpies come back. Sure they come back. We’ve always known DEs would be cyclic, but it’s still a lot better than the old quest system for a whole lot of people.

One might say the ‘old quest system’ is Aix sponsa while Dynamic Events are Aix galericulata.

One certainly might say that if one spoke latin. lol

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

…

Oh brother. Do you know why the hearts were added? To keep people at the places where dynamic events spawn. That’s it. They’re a relatively late addition to the game and were never meant to be the meat of the game. That’s why most hearts can be finished by doing dynamic events in those areas.

There are 301 hearts in this game and over 1500 dynamic events. And events are more satisfying to most people than the static quests in most games.

Not to mention the fact that most games only ship with about 500 quests and no personal story. There’s so much more content here then most MMOs, and you bring up the 300 hearts?

If you grind the hearts, or force yourself to do them, they’ll definitely feel like a grind. If you just go through areas doing events, most of the hearts will be mostly filled in, and then you can finish them off at your leisure.

snip

There are only X number of quest types, no matter what game you’re playing. Kill, capture, defend, gather make up 99% of quests in all games.

The difference in Guild Wars 2 is you don’t have to walk up to someone, get information, read a wall of text (most of which are terrible or routine), go out and get stuff and then go back to the guy for a dubious reward. You do some stuff, whatever it is, it all counts to unlocking the heart, getting you karma, you can then talk to each heart vendor and buy what you want, or skip it if you want.

And there’s no number in most of these quests. It’s not kill ten centaurs…it’s breaking their morale and driving them off. This may be a subtle different to some, but it makes a world of difference to others…including me.

snip

Well I say 75% you say 99% anyway then there is still that 1% and thats missing here where the design philosophy (thats what we are taking about here right) what to only have that those sort of events.

“And there’s no number in most of these quests. It’s not kill ten centaurs…it’s breaking their morale and driving them off.” Really????
You do understand that thats also just based on a number? Sure you don’t see the number and it changes depending on the number of people but it is still just kill x of this. You could do exactly the same in traditional quest.. ‘breaking their morale’ and then don’t give a number but a bar. You say it’s a subtle different but in reality it’s no difference at all.

And let me also stat that I do not hate events.. Now it’s not really like you say that they make a difference.. thats yet another thing of the Design Philosophy make a difference and change the world.. like you describe but the reality now is that I complete an event, scare away the centaurs and when I walk by that place 10 min later centaurs are ruling it because 5 min after I left the event spawned again.

But I do not have anything against hearths, events or whatsoever. The question was the Design Philosophy then and the result now.

They then said the events would be less of a grind and more of a world changing event / story whatever..

But now the events feel like a grind and I miss the quest with a story.. The 1% quest you refer to when you see 99% are of this type.

I do not ask them to remove the events.. I would ask them to make them really have an impact on the world.. Let centaurs attack a map and if we defeat them they will be gone for at least a month,, if we lose they will be there for at least a month and the events or quest or whatever then also changes in that time.
Such events should also result in a good reward else people would not bother and the bad guys would be ruling Tyria.

First of all, I don’t completely disagree with you. I’ve often said this game needs longer and more complex quest chains. However, I don’t think those chains need to be done as traditional quests. I think they can do them as events…just different types.

As for how different the DEs are without the numbers, even Total Biscuit talked about it in a commentary of how different it was for him. This is massively different for a whole lot of people. I’m sorry it’s not different enough for you but it makes a huge, huge difference.

Because that’s how battles work in real life anyway. Two sides come together, one suffers enough losses and eventually withdraws. This is far more plausible than killing ten of them to drive them off.

Furthermore, the number isn’t a constant like it is in most MMOs. It changes. It goes up as people show up and down as people leave. It adjusts on the fly. I’m actually amazed you can’t see just how advantageous this is and what a huge improvement to the MMO scene. You can bet a lot more games moving forward will use this (for good reason).

Primernova.5791:

Erasculio.2914:

Primernova.5791:

NOT an MMORPG.

Of course it’s a MMORPG.

Do you know why no one stopped to play with you after the event ended?

Because no one wanted to.

MMORPGs give people the option of playing with others. This does not mean people want to play with others all the time, or even most of the time.

I often see forumers demanding ArenaNet to make grouping with other players a requirement. Which is rather ironic – those demands come from forumers who don’t understand that people don’t want to play with them, and whose complaints are basically a way to try to force people to play with them.

Yeah bro, no one wanted to play with me…

That has to be it.

What should I have done in a zerg, that no one speaks to eachother in, has no damage meter, tanking or healing; to stand out as Rudolph the kittening Reindeer?

I’m in a guild, I have run zergs with them too, we just banter but run as our own zerg. Is that what you mean?

Not an MMORPG.

So guilds dont’ get together to WvW in numbers? That sounds a whole lot like an MMORPG to me.

When my guild does guild missions with 15-30 people at the same time, that’s not an MMO?

Maybe you should look MMO up online, I’m not sure it means what you think it means.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

I can also remember how they said the events would be more fun then the traditional quest because many of those quest where just kill x of that find x of that.

Back then I already did not like the idea that traditional quest would be gone as they make for a bound with the world.

But if you look at the hearts now they are all that sort of ‘quest’. The small farm quest basically. MMO’s thet had quest would indeed have about 75% of such quest but they would also have real fun interesting quest with a nice story and so on. I really mis that in GW2 and the hearths all feel like a grind.. kill x this, heal x that, research x of that and find x of that.

Oh brother. Do you know why the hearts were added? To keep people at the places where dynamic events spawn. That’s it. They’re a relatively late addition to the game and were never meant to be the meat of the game. That’s why most hearts can be finished by doing dynamic events in those areas.

There are 301 hearts in this game and over 1500 dynamic events. And events are more satisfying to most people than the static quests in most games.

Not to mention the fact that most games only ship with about 500 quests and no personal story. There’s so much more content here then most MMOs, and you bring up the 300 hearts?

If you grind the hearts, or force yourself to do them, they’ll definitely feel like a grind. If you just go through areas doing events, most of the hearts will be mostly filled in, and then you can finish them off at your leisure.

I was talking about the hearths and the events at the same time. Maybe that was not very clear but both the hearths and the events are similar in the way that it is kill this or research that. The mean difference is that hearths are always there while events just spawn. Both have a relative short ‘story’ and are not to be compared to some of the traditional quest we know from other MMO’s. And like I said.. yes 75% of the quest in those games are also like that but then there are also some really nice quest with a nice story.

If they would ever come with an expansion I would hope they would also reintroduce traditional quest again.

There are only X number of quest types, no matter what game you’re playing. Kill, capture, defend, gather make up 99% of quests in all games.

The difference in Guild Wars 2 is you don’t have to walk up to someone, get information, read a wall of text (most of which are terrible or routine), go out and get stuff and then go back to the guy for a dubious reward. You do some stuff, whatever it is, it all counts to unlocking the heart, getting you karma, you can then talk to each heart vendor and buy what you want, or skip it if you want.

And there’s no number in most of these quests. It’s not kill ten centaurs…it’s breaking their morale and driving them off. This may be a subtle different to some, but it makes a world of difference to others…including me.

Normally in most games, when you kill ten centaurs, there are still more centaurs right there. In Guild Wars 2, at least in most DEs, if the centaurs are attacking they get driven off. The the ogre quest with the harpies, if you defeat the harpies, a different creature inhabits the pond, until the harpies come back. Sure they come back. We’ve always known DEs would be cyclic, but it’s still a lot better than the old quest system for a whole lot of people.

I tend to look for the RP servers in any game, because though I don’t RP, the player base seems to be quite helpful and more community oriented then a lot of other servers. So I chose Tarnished Coast.

It turned out to be a pretty good choice. Not only is it one of the busier servers, but lots of RPers have alts, so there’s often people in the zones leveling, and we even do pretty well in WvW.

Devata.6589:

I can also remember how they said the events would be more fun then the traditional quest because many of those quest where just kill x of that find x of that.

Back then I already did not like the idea that traditional quest would be gone as they make for a bound with the world.

But if you look at the hearts now they are all that sort of ‘quest’. The small farm quest basically. MMO’s thet had quest would indeed have about 75% of such quest but they would also have real fun interesting quest with a nice story and so on. I really mis that in GW2 and the hearths all feel like a grind.. kill x this, heal x that, research x of that and find x of that.

Oh brother. Do you know why the hearts were added? To keep people at the places where dynamic events spawn. That’s it. They’re a relatively late addition to the game and were never meant to be the meat of the game. That’s why most hearts can be finished by doing dynamic events in those areas.

There are 301 hearts in this game and over 1500 dynamic events. And events are more satisfying to most people than the static quests in most games.

Not to mention the fact that most games only ship with about 500 quests and no personal story. There’s so much more content here then most MMOs, and you bring up the 300 hearts?

If you grind the hearts, or force yourself to do them, they’ll definitely feel like a grind. If you just go through areas doing events, most of the hearts will be mostly filled in, and then you can finish them off at your leisure.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Insignya.8625:

Reds themselves can start a thread asking people what they like or don’t like in the game, have a Q&A Session or collect poll results. Lots of games have a system where they collect community feedback, like Planetside 2’s Road Map. And at this point it’s kinda necessary – Guild Wars 2’s following a path many don’t find worth it to follow anymore and a blog post won’t hold their interest for long because, again, it’s nothing specific.

In 2013 devs are expected to seep through community feedback and find what’s best. For that they create their own systems or borrow somebody else’s. It’s another major part of future-proofing a game, you can’t not have an established method of taking the good criticism out of the bad.

But in case you haven’t noticed, the community feedback is mixed. That is to say, about half the people want what you want and about half the people want what I want…and they’re mutually exclusive.

So maybe devs ARE listening to community feedback and your side doesn’t have the numbers you think it does.

I don’t know if it’s as clear cut as a 50/50 split in the forum community.

I find I agree or disagree with different things different people bring up. For example :Sometimes I agree with points of view that you espouse, sometimes I disagree. I agree with some of what the OP is saying, and disagree with others. I find it’s that way with most of the posts I read, and I have the feeling that the devs are the same way. While every single idea may not be worthwhile when taken as a whole, they all offer something of value.

I think there are more people on the forum with ideas than just “Us” and “Them”. Unless the us and them break down to the people who actually discuss a given topic, and those who just continually shout that others are wrong without actually adding anything to the topic.

Sure, I was simplifying, but it doesn’t change my point at all.

Someone claimed Anet doesn’t listen to anyone, but usually, people say that when Anet doesn’t listen to them.

If the community is split on lots of things, even if it’s not just a them and us situation, then what I said stands. There’s no way to know Anet doesn’t listen.

And I suspect they do listen. They just aren’t guaranteed to react to all the advise and if that’s not the case, it’s impossible to say whether they listen or not.

In spite of that, those who don’t like the way the game is changing are going to claim they don’t listen, whether Anet listens or not.

I’d love to answer this question..but I don’t think it’s that easy to answer.

There are a lot of things I like about this game…but it’s the sum of those things that I love about this game.

For example, I like being able to go back to old zones and be downleveled. I like that I still get rewards in those zones, even just coin and karma, that I can use. And I like that you can’t kill steal or steal someone else’s node. But it’s the combination of those factors that make the game interesting as a whole.

I’m not sure that Guild Wars 2 does any one thing amazingly but the combination of design elements, from the downed state, to the way combat feels, to the way that I keep finding/noticing little things I didn’t see the first time through, keeps me entertained.

Insignya.8625:

Reds themselves can start a thread asking people what they like or don’t like in the game, have a Q&A Session or collect poll results. Lots of games have a system where they collect community feedback, like Planetside 2’s Road Map. And at this point it’s kinda necessary – Guild Wars 2’s following a path many don’t find worth it to follow anymore and a blog post won’t hold their interest for long because, again, it’s nothing specific.

In 2013 devs are expected to seep through community feedback and find what’s best. For that they create their own systems or borrow somebody else’s. It’s another major part of future-proofing a game, you can’t not have an established method of taking the good criticism out of the bad.

But in case you haven’t noticed, the community feedback is mixed. That is to say, about half the people want what you want and about half the people want what I want…and they’re mutually exclusive.

So maybe devs ARE listening to community feedback and your side doesn’t have the numbers you think it does.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Insig, you’re wasting your time here… The large majority of people on this forum are blindly supporting anet as a hardcore microsoft fanboy would justify DRM and pay dat $500 for weak console. They’re happy collecting minis, stand in LA, wait for free new anet skins, stand in LA with free new skins, may do a daily, buy some gems and stand in LA some more. This is what GW2 is about, stand in a town and talk to people… No matter how you try, its impossible to get any more casual. Don’t bother arguing with a ‘mini pet collector’ because to them gameplay feels as it should, do nothing and receive free reward twice per month from anet, YAY so fun.

The large number of people on this forum aren’t BLINDLY doing anything and to suggest they are is insulting to them.

See, people don’t agree with YOUR opinion so we must be BLINDLY supporting the game. Don’t you think that’s a bit arrogant on your part?

Isn’t it just as likely that people enjoy different play styles or have a different opinion. Maybe those people think you’re blindly ignoring the best parts of this game.

When stuff is worded this way it undermines anything legitimate you might have to say.

Not the first time a thread like this has come up and I understand why most people are disappointed with the Zhaitan fight. Because they think in terms of boss fights. Mostly people who play games after a certain point in time have more problems with it than people who grew up playing earlier games…because the entire premise of gaming has changed. I don’t think in terms of boss fights. I even hate the term boss. It takes the world away and puts it into game mode.

To me, I’d been fighting Zhaitan since the moment I entered Orr…around level 70. We’d partially blinded him, killed part of his food source, took away his ability to make more undead….we beat him back until he was trapped in Arah. We took the fight too him. Everything we did in the personal story was part of beating Zhaitan.

Then there’s the mega-laser that actually crippled Zhaitan, an invention of Professor Gorr. Unfortunately if you didn’t do that Asuran story line you don’t realize the significance of that weapon.

The Zhaitan fight is more of an epilogue than an actual boss fight. If you go expecting a boss fight, you’re going to be seriously disappointed. If you go in expected the last chapter of a story, maybe not so much.

I’m in five guilds. I rep one of them 95% of the time. I wouldn’t join a guild that needed me 100% of the time.

I prefer fun to efficiency, but I’m sure that surprises few people here.

I can certainly understand where you’re coming from. Expansions are exciting.

Of course, they also generally cost money and getting content for free is also exciting, but in a different way. That’s assuming they do release the big stuff in the Living Story.

I’d personally prefer an expansion to what they’re doing, but I think I’ll have to reserve judgement to see how/where it goes.

Because I can get excited about little stuff, like the new weapons and armor and buffs for achievement points.

Insignya.8625:

@Erasculio, it’s incredibly easy to fix the odds on accounts. They’re not gonna go and say “yeah we can blacklist whenever we want”. RNG is an algorithm, it can be modified for players and why shouldn’t it? If someone’s paying for gold with real money and loses it all in the Forge, he’s gonna buy more most likely. Of course, none of that is proven, but none of that is disproved either. When people are asking you straight questions and you’re kitten ing around copy-pasting stuff from the manifesto, then it’s only logical to assume you’re being dishonest.

@Safer Saviour, the Living Story was supposed to change the world. It didn’t. It was meant to bring an “expansion’s worth of content”. It didn’t. It was also meant to bring content both temporary and permanent. It didn’t. The vague responses from Arena.NET don’t just concern the Living Story and I’ve written about them in an old thread, “How 10 months changed my perspective”.

I’m dismissive of people who spend their entire life in this forum without bringing a single actual suggestion.

At least you admit you’re dismissive.

As such there’s no reason why anyone should take you seriously.

Insignya.8625:

@Safer Saviour, ever watched a League patch preview? Let me know when you do. What Colin is doing is 100% pure marketing, he’s not going into specifics, he’s just saying “oh yeah we’ll do that some day”. I don’t expect you to understand me the way I don’t expect Vayne and Morrigan to not continue to quote me and spurn out even more pointless arguing that’s light years away from the topic. But hey, that’s how forum warriors work. Please, show me your online superiority, I’m lolled you still haven’t discussed a single suggestion from my original list.

Listen ,this thread has become pointless. You wanna get back on topic, do so. At this point it’s just a bunch of people quoting me endlessly. I gave you a list of suggestions but yeah, why bother reading those when you can see something opinionated of mine and write an essay about it.

They never fixed the RNG issue, it’s still there. It’s just marketed more cleverly. Do we know the percentage chance of getting a skin? Do we know if accounts aren’t blacklisted for RNG? Unless they make a thread about it, explaining everything people have been asking for months about RNG, I have no reason to believe they’re not just screwing us over in a more creative way.

Maybe people would discuss your suggestions if the way you communicate came across as less of an attack on anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

You don’t encourage discussion. You’re completely dismissive of people who don’t share your play style.

I can’t imagine people can’t find PVe guilds in this game. There are plenty of them.

HiddenNick.7206:

Vayne.8563:

Ah, lost touch with the community. How single-minded of you.

WHICH community. You mean the community of people who agree with you. They’ve lost touch with what YOU want in a game. Maybe what people who share your play style want in a game.

They didn’t lost touch with because you would be glad with anything what they do…

Edit: I think what Insignya is trying to say is that AN is not doing what is the best for the game. They just react mindlessly to that what the current rant is about.

First of all, you’re not only a bit wrong, but you’re very wrong. I’m not glad with anything they do to the game, and only someone who has not followed what I write could possibly claim so. Or did you miss my very vocal condemnation of the RNG in cash shop boxes.

Your problem is, you think anyone who doesn’t see things your way must be totally accepting of anything. Well get this…I like the direction the game is moving in. Really. It’s not that I’d like ANYTHING Anet did.

I don’t particularly like the way ascended gear was introduced, for example and said so. I’ve said I don’t like the way the personal story was solo up to Arah and suddenly it was multiplayer. I’ve said I don’t like how story dungeons tell the story of Destiny’s Edge. I thought it was a poor design decision.

But people like you continue to say I like anything Anet does.

Time to take your blinders off. You’re prejudice against me because I like a game that you don’t like. That has nothing to do with having no standards and everything to do with having different standards.

Insignya.8625:

When you lose touch with the community, you become just another sellout in the industry. That’s just it, twist the truth however you want, I’ve seen devs take an absurd amount of criticism and reinforce people’s respect, because they actually stood up for their game. But you’re not doing that, Arena.NET – you can’t even go in here and say “you’re wrong, we’ll have this and this, we haven’t forgotten the hardcore” or defend your game and tell me where I’m wrong.

Wanna know why I said Colin is not a gamer? Because developers who actually play their game talk in a different way – they answer the exact questions people want to ask and they’re not afraid to stand up if they think this is right. You? “OH, Guild Wars 2 can be that, it can be this, it may have an expansion, we could continue the living story, we might do something else…” A gamer dev, even if he angers the community, at least tells it what his plans are.

You can’t do that, so you let me and other people deal with pointless arguments, resorting to whining and complaining that should never have been the point of this thread. You know how this works – if you stay silent people will forget, they’ll stop caring about the forums because they’re pointless and you can continue with your vague promises and soulless marketing.

Guild Wars 2, to me, is not a bad game. It’s a disappointment.

Ah, lost touch with the community. How single-minded of you.

WHICH community. You mean the community of people who agree with you. They’ve lost touch with what YOU want in a game. Maybe what people who share your play style want in a game.

How conveniently you ignore the people who enjoy the game. What about THAT community. Maybe they’re not “gamers” like Colin. Only people like you can be a “gamer”. Do you realize how this sounds?

Anet hasn’t lost touch with the community. Anet is perfectly in touch with a community of people that you happen not to be part of. And that’s okay. Because the playerbase isn’t one huge homogeneous mass. It’s a varied player base with different play styles, who want and crave different things.

And you can’t admit that anyone that plays differently or thinks differently can possibly be a gamer.

Anet is making a game for a different type of gamer. You’re not liking the direction of the game, but that doesn’t make Anet wrong.

I’m not sure that you should be using the word gamer to represent only your demographic.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

So the debate becomes about whether ascended gear is required or optional. Those who think it’s required will insist we have grind and those who think it isn’t required will insist there is no required grind.

To take your example, if it’s a stat increase, however large or small, it doesn’t matter if it’s actually optional. It doesn’t LOOK optional. And people then are going to feel like they’re being forced to grind fractals if they want to stay competitive in WvW or dungeons. ArenaNet should have known that. I think a LOT of people DID know that, but for some reason they’re not telling us, they made the decision anyway. It was a huge mistake, and we’re all left wondering why they made such an obvious one. What was their real motive? It’s about PERCEPTION.

But that is only one thing of many. And I am not arguing any of them here. That wasn’t the point of my earlier post. My point is: we all believed one thing, and APPARENTLY got another. Perception. Marketing 101.

I disagree that if something has higher stats it looks mandatory. I don’t feel that way. Others besides me don’t feel that way. Those who feel as you do might not understand this…but as long as the content itself isn’t gated by gear, it shouldn’t matter.

And since the fractals provides the gear you need to progress, that cancels itself out. It was designed for those who like to grind. Those players like me, can still experience them all without ascended gear.

Celestina.2894:

Off topic, but Vayne, you’re about the only person I see on this forum with a consistent, respectable degree of logic.

I for one am glad you’re still here.

Thanks for this. I’m sure just as many people would be happy if I vanished into thin air, though. lol

Bomb kit is also a melee range weapon and a very very effective one.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

@Erasculio

I’m not saying the manifesto is 100% correct though, so your whole theory falls apart. I’m saying there is one definite line in there that I don’t feel is correct. Based SOLELY ON ENGLISH, the paragraph with grind can only be interpreted one way. People can bring their own interpretations all the want, but it doesn’t make it what that paragraph says.

And the part about Ree talking about story and Colin talking about DE isn’t my opinion it’s a matter of fact, clarified by Anet themselves.

You have a problem because you PERCEIVE me to a be blind fan boy, when even killcannon has noticed that not all my posts are positive.

But I’ll continue to speak up when I see things that misquoted, or exaggerated beyond all reason.

My issue isn’t with those who put Guild Wars 2 down. It’s with those who invent stuff to put it down. It comes from years of arguing with teenagers who over-emphasize everything to try to make a point, even when there’s no point to be made.

And I argue this line of thought on every forum on every topic you can name. It’s not about Guild Wars 2. It’s about integrity.

If it takes a technical argument over semantics to mount a defense of the Manifesto, then I’d say the glove fits.

Sure, some people here are just kittening, but many are also onetime fans who really feel left out in the rain by some of ANet’s decision-making. And you know it. Everybody knows it.

I can say that from the announcement of GW2 back in the EotN days, following what tidbits came out during the deveolopment process, and getting beyond excited over that manifesto – I expected something completely different. Something that had a bit more meaning than what we got.

From what I can tell, so did many others. THIS is why we feel let down by the Manifesto. It doesn’t matter what it technically says in perfect English in the fine print – the spirit of the thing tells us one thing, and what we got in GW2 is something so different it feels like a betrayal.

I think enough people are disappointed over this that, even though they might actually wind up making a pretty good game, it will never have the chance to be the great thing it could have been. Too many old GW fans have left, stopped believing, and don’t care anymore.

I don’t think there’s any getting that back.

People are kitten off specifically because of the addition of ascended gear (having zero to do the manifesto). The manifesto didn’t talk about vertical progression it talked about fun.

There were other interviews where other things were said, but really the manifesto itself is Guild Wars 1 players reading stuff into it that’s simply not there. It’s NOT a battle of semantics, it’s people hearing what they want to hear, an entirely different thing.

The manifesto, as worded, was confusing, with regards to what Ree and Colin were talking about and that was clarified after. The line about everything you love about Guild Wars 1 was clearly wrong, but the most often picked on line simply doesn’t mean what people say it means.

People read into stuff all the time. But it’s actually crystal clear what Colin is saying and anyone approaching it with an open mind can see this.

It’s not an illusion. He makes a statement about grind, defining the kind of grind he’s talking about, then comes back and says we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2, harkening back to the first line he’s talking about. THere were interviews after where devs said there would be stuff to grind for but there wouldn’t be mandatory grind. And to me, and to many others, they’ve achieved exactly that.

Even Guild Wars 1 players can’t deny there was grind in Guild Wars 1.

As for vertical progression, as killcannon is fond of pointing out, it’s been in the game since day 1. Literally. Having 80 level masterwork, rare and exotic is a vertical progression. You can get rares and then you can get exotics. It’s not like they didn’t have vertical progression in the game.

But the whole grind thing is ridiculous. Anyone who’d ever gotten GWAMM knows that Guild Wars 1 had tons of grind. The thing is it was always optional grind.

So the debate becomes about whether ascended gear is required or optional. Those who think it’s required will insist we have grind and those who think it isn’t required will insist there is no required grind.

Engies have the wrench from their tool kit that’s actually quite effective.

Sinifair.1026:

Vayne.8563:

Okay, I’m quite mystified by this post.

Anet just announced that they’ll be updating the Living Story every two weeks. We have a new dungeon (temporary though it is) and a new jumping puzzle that’s permanent. Achievement points are going to be getting rewards. There’s all sorts of new PvE stuff coming in all the time.

If you’re talking about balancing, that’s one thing, but I think it’s pretty clear Anet’s focus is on PvE and making a “living world”.

You may not like how they’re going about it, but I think most PvPers would kill for the amount of attention PvE is getting.

There have been several updates to the mechanics of PvP where no attention has been given to PvE.
- Personally, I did nothing of the Southsun Cove content because it just failed in appealling to me as PvE content and I went ahead with playing the regular PvE content, which just never seemed to get updated. No new things, no new Dynamic Events or anything really.
- The SAB was quite nice for a change, but Tyria haven’t really seen any change in its PvE mechanics as PvP content has. No new PvE features at all.
- Living World is not really proper PvE content. Having stuff to do in the Open World when you’re out there is (and no, not the “stumble upon” stuff. It’s a nice addition but it leaves many hours of wandering aimlessly around).

- To be fair, that is what they are talking about improving now, World Bosses being one of them along with new zones, so I say lets wait and see.

Guild missions are PvE content. They can no way be misconstrued as PvP content and there are a bunch of them. The redo of the Ascalonian dungeon is PvE content. Anet redid the dungeon and most people don’t do it anymore. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t done. That’s also new bosses with new mechanics. Obviously jumping puzzles have been added (and you can’t tell me that’s PvP). The one time they did add events, back in November, people didn’t care. The Flame and Frost dungeon was not only PvE content but it was popular PvE content. The new Sky Pirates dungeon is PvE content. The Halloween instance was PvE content. And most people would consider the music minigame at Christmas PvE content. The skritt burglur is certainly PvE content. The Cragstead instance has changed as a result of Flame and Frost, Southsun has been rebuild and has a new meta-event.

You can say there’s more PvP focus all you want…but it’s simply not true. What new stuff has SPvP gotten since launch? A new map, an observation mode (which was talked about before launch and was always supposed to be there) and custom arenas. That’s it.

WvW finally got an end to culling (they’re working on the PvE version but it’s far more complicated) and the new WxP/ranks. Oh and traps…but that’s about it.

I don’t know how ANYONE can say this game is PvP focused and keep a straight face.

@Erasculio

I’m not saying the manifesto is 100% correct though, so your whole theory falls apart. I’m saying there is one definite line in there that I don’t feel is correct. Based SOLELY ON ENGLISH, the paragraph with grind can only be interpreted one way. People can bring their own interpretations all the want, but it doesn’t make it what that paragraph says.

And the part about Ree talking about story and Colin talking about DE isn’t my opinion it’s a matter of fact, clarified by Anet themselves.

You have a problem because you PERCEIVE me to a be blind fan boy, when even killcannon has noticed that not all my posts are positive.

But I’ll continue to speak up when I see things that misquoted, or exaggerated beyond all reason.

My issue isn’t with those who put Guild Wars 2 down. It’s with those who invent stuff to put it down. It comes from years of arguing with teenagers who over-emphasize everything to try to make a point, even when there’s no point to be made.

And I argue this line of thought on every forum on every topic you can name. It’s not about Guild Wars 2. It’s about integrity.

Yargesh.4965:

Slightly off topic something got to me about giants. I was looking at norn cultural armour when I spoke with an Jotun NPC beside jormags claw/tooth hanging in the main hall. He was talking about how the Jotun and Norn are giants. So in theory every time you kill one of these (any jotun and sons of svarnir) you are in effect killing a giant as well.

Sure but each creature can only count in one time. Jotun have their own category as to Son’s of Svanir, the only norn you can kill. Orrian giants count as risen.

I think Anet is going to have to add a bunch of giants at some point or lower the requirement for the achievement.

Nope…giant slayer requires 1000 kills. There are three giants in the game, that are all part of group events. They take a while to take down.

I don’t think anyone’s gotten giant slayer yet. I’d be surprised if someone has.

You’re reallying going to kill 1000 giants?

You know the ones in Orr don’t count right? lol

Simon.3106:

TC = Topic Creator
OP = Original Post
CD = Cooldown

Ah, see I see TC and I think Tarnished Coast. Silly me.

And no, I won’t be apologizing to the OP. I do apologize when I think I’m wrong (I did so earlier today in another thread in fact) but this isn’t one of those times. And on that note. I’m going to bed.

Simon.3106:

Good boy. Now apologize to the TC for bashing him just because he shared his opinion. And if I may ask, are you at work or something? I notice that you are usually on at this time in the morning.

I’m at work 24/7. I care for a disabled person. I have a lot of short down times to type something, do something then type something. It’s almost 4 am here, and she’s still awake. Kill me now.

And who the hell is TC?

Simon.3106:

Vayne.8563:

Okay this is obviously a thread I’ll have to post in yet again, because people CONTINUE to not get it. I dont’ see what’s so hard about this.

If you feel that you have to “post in yet again” then do it. If it feels like a burden, then don’t do it. Let the TC share his opinion. And “people CONTINUE to not get it. I don’t see what’s so hard about this.” Maybe people DOOOOO get it, but DON"T agree with you. You ever thought of that? Would it make you feel better if I say something like: “Oh Vayne, your words are not helpful to one man, but to the entire community as well!!!!” ? People like you are ignorant and think that whatever you believe is right, and what others believe (or have opinion on) is wrong. And if I recall right, you were one of the few who were against GW2 entirely several of weeks after the release date.

As I’ve said repeatedly, English is English. Following the laws of English there’s one way to interpret what’s being said. That people want to take a different definition of grind, something that’s not at all implied in anything else in the piece, based on a single line taken out of its paragraph is pretty appalling.

People can believe anything they want. They can believe in Santa Claus for all I care. I’m not going to stop telling them he doesn’t exist.

JSmooth.7654:

Vayne.8563:

And btw, I don’t think “most” people misinterpret the manifesto. I think that a couple of people deliberately look to malign the game because they’re feeling disenfranchised. Remember, I believe the manifesto for the most part, was fulfilled. And I’m not alone in this, in spite of what others think.

Vayne, please do not try to over generalize people in your vision of their bad intentions. Even though I don’t play much GW2 lately, I visit the forums because I care and still want to believe in this game. You may not agree with my opinion and viewpoint on this game’s direction. But, that does not mean that I want this game to fail.

I wasn’t necessarily talking about you. Sorry if you took it that way.

Vladimer.7051:

Vayne.8563:

Oh yeah you can also use a second account for when you want to be “alone”. I know you can log in invisible, but for some reason that doesn’t always work perfectly. Having a different account and not letting people know it’s yours is a way to have some private play time without the stress of people nagging you to run dungeons. lol

Sorry Vayne

Oh I don’t mind. That’s why I put the lol. Just seems like every time someone needs someone to run something, they find me. I’ll live. lol

Rooks Zaer.5846:

If they knew the manifesto video was the subject of mass misinterpretation, they should have redone it to be more clear. Or taken it down. Anything short of that would be, at best, irresponsible. And at worst, intentionally misleading.

They posted a clarification. they stopped talking about it It’s two years old. They’ve had so much stuff after it, that it’s beyond amazing that this is ALL anyone talks about. It would be like going to an architect and he draws some stuff about how he wants the house to look, not a mechanical drawing, but a sketch to give you an idea.

And btw, I don’t think “most” people misinterpret the manifesto. I think that a couple of people deliberately look to malign the game because they’re feeling disenfranchised. Remember, I believe the manifesto for the most part, was fulfilled. And I’m not alone in this, in spite of what others think.

Maybe if they hadn’t provided dozens of hours of footage after the fact about what specifically would be in the game, you’d have a point…but they were VERY explicit about what a dynamic event was, what the personal story was…the very word manifesto only means a statement of intent…nothing more. It’s a goal to aspire to. It’s not a guarantee of delivery.

Anyone can pick anything apart if they truly want to. Just look at politicians and lawyers.

Nick.6972:

That’s your subjective opinion.

But, try looking at manifesto objectively without bias.

Can you do that?

I have done it. As an editor not as a disenfranchised Guild Wars 1 fan. You think you’re being objective. I don’t think you are. I think you’re as subjective as hell.

Over the years I’ve had to leave my prejudice at the door while editing. I literally have to turn off preconceptions…it comes with the territory. It’s about reading what’s THERE.

The word grind, as used in that sentence was never defined in the way most people claim it is. They simply have an IDEA of what grind is.

And because I clearly remember the clarification Anet published right after that manifesto, I dare say I’m a whole lot less subjective than you are. After all, Anet explained what they meant in simple English, because some people DID misunderstand. Particularly the bit about Colin talking about DEs and Ree talking about personal story.

But yeah, I almost always read objectively…it’s an occupational hazard. You’re the one assigning a new value to the word grind, when another definition was provided two or three lines earlier.

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

They changed it six years into the game.

I don’t see how Anet making these changes has any bearing on the current discussion.

That was, as I mentioned, the second change to pve skill related titles. I’m fairly certain that the first adjustment, years earlier, also changed how the Kuzrick/Luxon skills scaled with higher ranks. I think the skills still improved all the way to the max rank, but the amount they improved by diminished with each rank. The highest rank gave very little improvement to the skills’ stats.

That initial rescaling was done because the ranks were considered to much of a grind/taking to long to achieve for something that was linked to character/skill improvement. The later change still had nothing to do with making the title easier. Other titles were made easier to get when GW2’s release was closer, but the allegiance titles I think remained the same in that update. They were made more convenient with the addition of Imperial Faction, but the effort required to get them wasn’t really altered. The 2nd change to the skill scaling was simply to make the full power of the skills more accessible. This, again, was because it was considered too much grind/effort in order to obtain the maximum skill potential.

If anything, the changes that were deemed necessary in GW1 are evidence that the current wvw ability progression should be made more accessible. Making the ability point earnings account bound would a huge step towards that. I think that WXP/abilities are a good idea, if implemented that way. Further tweaks might be needed to make them more reasonable for newer players later in the game’s life, so they don’t feel so hopelessly behind the curve. But for now, account-based earning would a great start.

I do think the wvw ranks (not considering the abilities) are a good addition, and an incentive for some players. I don’t think it qualifies as new content by any means, but it does serve to generate interest in existing content. It would be nice to see something similar done for the pve side of the game, as GW1 had a great deal of success with title hunting. Just don’t link it with skills/power in any way, and keep any other improvement/progression account-based, not character.

I didn’t say it made the title easier, I said it made the game easier. Essentially, you could have a full imbagon paragon without having to grind all the way to max level or even past level 5, which isn’t that hard to get. That’s what I was talking about.

Oh yeah you can also use a second account for when you want to be “alone”. I know you can log in invisible, but for some reason that doesn’t always work perfectly. Having a different account and not letting people know it’s yours is a way to have some private play time without the stress of people nagging you to run dungeons. lol

The only other thing I can think of is lag. You know, you don’t think you’re taking damage, but your computer screen isn’t showing what the server actually has you on.

There are times when you may think you’re running away from something, but you’re actually not because you’re already downed…but it’s not showing on your screen yet.

I think a lot of it is that people feel if they don’t make something SOUND really bad, no one will take any notice.

It’s not enough for most people to say: I’m not thinking this temporary content works because ABC.

They have to make it sound worse, to try to get it changed. Temporary content is ruining this game.

It’s not because people are gamers, it’s because people are naturally manipulative. We learn how to manipulate from a young age, and then we spend the rest of our lives doing the same thing. Trying to convince your wife to watch a certain movie with you, you use spin. It’s human nature.

So you come onto a game forum and want something changed, you try to paint it in the most negative light possible, trying to show that it’s really really bad, so maybe it will be changed.

People dont’ realize that overstating things affects their credibility though. Sometimes, less is more.