Guild Wars 2

Thaddeus.4891:

SkiTz.4590:

I don’t get it.. whats the diversity and options?… those champ trains are literally just go to champ, spam autoattack, grab loot, move to next champ, repeat. There isn’t a single challenging aspect, you have no fear of dying or failing (you’ll get rezzed instantly anyways if you do) other than making sure you don’t too far behind the train, theres no challenge here lol.

hey you don’t like that kind of stuff it’s ok. I’m not a fan either. But you and me are not the only type of player that Anet need to satisfied. SW is probably one of the most popular stuff right now, and champ train was super popular back then. World Boss train? Still super popular. A bunch of people like that time of easy mindless farming. They don’t need a reason, we don’t need to defend their position, they are still doing it. More ways to do their type of content is called diversity. Maybe not the kind of diversity you like, but just a change of pace, enemy type and scenery can do wonder.

I’d almost agree with you, but the OP is asking for low level champ trains and those absolutely caused problems. I remember being in Lornar’s pass one day and someone asking in map chat where’s the train. He’d leveled up on the train in Queensdale and he literally thought that was the game.

Not to mention when a new person does something out of order and gets verbally attacked in map chat by overzealous people. Once the player as a higher level, maybe it will be easier for them to know what’s going on, but in a low level zone…there’s absolutely no good reason to have a champ train.

Answers to your questions, even though I’m not Gaile.

1. No. Players will not get a chance to interact directly with devs. Considering there are hundreds of thousands of players, and not as many devs, that would be completely unworkable and unreaslistic. Forums are how you communicate with devs, unless you’re lucky enough to meet one at a con or something.

2. I don’t really understand the question. Forum moderators don’t generally communicate. Are you asking if the conflict between forum moderators and the playerbase is affected how devs communicate? I find that unlikely.

3. Gaile would have to answer that one herself.

4. There are enough negative posts that remain up for long periods of time to make this comment at the very least disingenuous. Posts are removed for many reasons, and disagreeing with Anet isn’t usually one of them. However, unconstructive posts or posts that are offensive in some way are sometimes removed yes.

5. This post, in my opinion, absolutely should be removed. It’s misleading, unnecessarily confrontational and just adding a line like this is combative. If I were a mod, I’d remove it immediately.

usernameisapain.7163:

UnknownRH.4592:

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s a little ridiculous how little detailed information we’ve gotten at this point. I’m not pre-ordering until I know how many maps there are at the very least.

When you guys purchased Guild Wars 2 did you know how many maps you will get with the game? Entitlement is strong in this one. Anet owes you nothing in this regard and crying about it will not make you get it. threatening Anet with your wallet is also not gonna help.

Ah, back then it was a preorder, not a pre-purchase(there might’ve been a pre-purchase shortly before release, or just when they gave us a release date, honestly don’t recall) =) . And I pretty much knew all of what I would get. Don’t remember if all maps were revealed, I actually think that they revealed world map on an occasion or two. Then again, I never complained about knowing exactly how many maps there are, so that argument is void with me.

And majority of people are just making statement, that they won’t buy until they know more. But it seems that a lot of people feel they have to start personal attacks and call everyone entitled, and crying, and attempting to blackmail Anet. Silly, so silly, get of your high horse. It’s a forum, people should be able to make claims, and opinions both ways without anyone insulting one another.

There was a prepurchase and preorder for Guild Wars 2, almost exactly as it is now. I prepurchased Guild Wars 2 in something like April and it launched at the end of August. You got benefits for prepurchase you didn’t get for preorder. It’s very much the same.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

GW1 expansions didn’t include the previous expansion as a bonus.

That’s true and it costs Anet and they know it. Anet said going into Guild Wars 2 they wouldn’t be using that system, because it divided the player base. That’s the reason for a lot of the design decisions Anet made in Guild Wars 2.

It’s such a strong thread running through their decisions that one can only assume that they consider the previous way it was done to be unsuccessful.

Anet isn’t providing information the way it is for us. Most of us are going to buy the expansion, even those that say they aren’t.

Anet is doing what it does to get exposure out to people not already playing the game…and it’s working. Every time they go to a new convention and announce something completely new, all the MMO sites and some gaming sites cover it, and more sales are made.

Anet doesn’t have to try to sell the game to us. They have to try to sell the game to people who haven’t already bought into Guild Wars.

And in case you’ve missed it there have been a lot of new players around, so I guess it must be working.

UnknownRH.4592:

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s a little ridiculous how little detailed information we’ve gotten at this point. I’m not pre-ordering until I know how many maps there are at the very least.

When you guys purchased Guild Wars 2 did you know how many maps you will get with the game? Entitlement is strong in this one. Anet owes you nothing in this regard and crying about it will not make you get it. threatening Anet with your wallet is also not gonna help.

Actually I’m pretty sure we did know, but there were so many things we didn’t know about including the Living Story. I’m happy enough with the game and enjoy it enough to want to continue it. I want to continue to get updates. I want to see more of the story. I want to play with the new specializations, I want to level the new masteries. I want Guild Halls and I want to see the new zones, not just what’s coming with the expansion but what comes after.

Is $50 too much to spend on that? Not for me. Your mileage may vary.

Kimyrielle.3826:

World bosses are regularly not worth doing if the bonus chest was already taken for the day. Most world bosses take much longer to take down than regular champs, their reward isn’t -any- better, and the wait times between kills are a -lot- longer than the QD trains was, which could kill champs with next to no waiting involved.
And Frostgorge is getting old after a while.
It’s strange that they are normally concerned with keeping low-level areas alive and then take away the very reason for higher level players to still go there. I am sad that they took away the QD champ train. It was a mindless fun thing to do for coffee breaks.

Unless you gather while you wait for them.

SkiTz.4590:

Torolan.5816:

SkiTz.4590:

Where do you get your assumptions from?
harder means less ppl doing it? what The ppl wanting hardcore pve content either quit the game LONG time ago OR moved into spvp/wvw where its usually not a braindead auto attack spam game like you have now…
less ppl do it because they FIND IT BORING.. thats why anet is bringing in endgame progression/content…. because of evident it was that this game was lacking it…

I don´t really understand how this can be even in question? Even if that probably baffles you, most people don´t want to spend their game time in the same dungeon, the adrenaline rush gets very quickly replaced by the feeling of being tired of failing at the same spot, or a variety of different spots.
I am a fairly stubborn player, but simply gave up at some point to obtain Lumi Armor because of the grindy and unforgiven nature of LS2 .Yes, stuff can both be grindy and unforgiven at once. If I did not luckily have a “pro player” in my guild, I would probably only have a few of them instead of at least a majority of them because I could not be kitten d to enter them again.

Sounds like a personal problem… Its not anets problem or anyone else that you are too stubborn and give up easily and rely on others to carry you… You give up but you still want the reward….sounds reasonable…

That’s where you’re wrong. If there are enough people like Torolan than it is absolutely Anet’s problem because enough people being frustrated isn’t good for the game either.

Let’s say there are 15% of the people who absolutely love hard content and want something really hard t sink their teeth into. If there are 25% of the playerbase frustrated by the content, then there are more people unhappy than happy at the changes.

Well wait, I hear you say. They don’t have to play my content and I don’t have to play their content. That’s true. But if those same people who are already frustrated see rewards that they either can’t have, or rewards that the game is telling them they’re not entitled to because they’re not good enough or not willing to work harder at playing, those people will leave.

In my opinion, it is absolutely Anet’s problem which group is bigger and how changes made to the game will affect the populous and by extension it becomes all our problems.

OP, I won’t comment on most of what you said, but there’s a reason why HoT isn’t stand alone. The whole idea behind this is not dividing the playerbase. Even the last expansion in Guild Wars 1 wasn’t stand alone, because Anet learned their less from the first two exapansions.

Make this expansion standalone would be some people would have Guild Wars 1 and some people would have HoT, and they wouldn’t be able to play together.

Anet wants to avoid this situation as it caused problems in Guild Wars 1.

FrizzFreston.5290:

There is no valid reason for the game to not have exclusive rewards. Other than personal preference.

Recognizing that in an MMO there’s millions of players, there’s millions of different opinions what they like or not like in the game. Which automatically means that parts of the game will not be for you, which means parts of the rewards will not be for you.

It’s up to ArenaNet to design the game or parts of the game for the players or parts of the players. The rewards are something earned through playing the game. They are however, not the game itself. As long as the game is open for everyone, then the rewards are open for everyone to get.

Getting a shortcut to a reward by opening it up to a flexible acquisition could mean the reward would get a totally different progression path, directing most players into that way. It’s basically teaching players to avoid the game and choose the easiest path. It would be a meaningless choice to make.

It’s very hard to have a reward that’s requires equal amounts of effort by an easy long route as well as a “shorter” more challenging route.

What could help, is to let people learn the challenging content better so that they feel more able to move through this content. Basically training them to become better at the type of content and showing them the ropes to a certain extend.

Some would say personal preference is a valid reason. lol

I don’t really think killing Zhaitan was ever meant to be a “boss fight”. It was more like an interactive cut scene. The rest of the dungeon, at launch anyway, was pretty challenging.

The issue was, it was the last step of the personal story and the only step you couldn’t solo.

People complained about it being too hard, thus it was nerfed, and then people complained about you needed a group when no other step in the personal story required one.

The general idea isn’t that Zhaitan was a boss fight. For the last ten levels of the story you’ve been consistently weakening him. You killed the mouth and the eyes. You cut off his ability to make undead. And the final weapon to kill him was a special anti-dragon magic weapon that did the real damage. You just finished him off.

Those expecting a boss fight were indeed deeply disappointed.

And people wonder why Anet is reluctant to say anything.

Iason Evan.3806:

Ayrilana.1396:

Iason Evan.3806:

Jimson.5168:

I keep reading these threads and trying to fathom why people keep threatening to hold their breath until their face turns blue to make Anet give them an ice cream cone.

I guess I should make a similar demand… something like… “Give me source code to the game and server side software or I won’t preorder HoT.” Oh, wait! I already pre-ordered. Darn it! I guess I’m just out of luck. Time to take a breath again.

Since I pay more in internet access fees every month than I’ve ever spent in buying and playing this game, the price of HoT is trivial IMO. I do not understand the OP’s demand to know everything up front. That’s like asking for the last chapter in a who-done-it novel before the book is released.

It’s that their information has been misleading Jimson. Colin and Mike announced new legendaries in January. Were you thinking that meant backpieces? No one was but that is what we are getting. They announced multilevel maps. Now they are backtracking and saying that not every map is multi-level. I’d agree with your food analogy, but I am asking for basic info. How many maps? I’m not asking for story beats and scripts for how the Mordremoth fight goes down.

Because the final fight is happening at the end of this x-pac, right? Or nah?

It hasn’t been misleading. Did they say all maps would be multi-level? Did they say all new legendary weapons would be available? They were/are not backtracking. It’s people reading too far into what they’re saying, making speculation or assumptions, and then treating it as fact only to be disappointed later on when they are wrong.

I disagree. It is misleading. There aren’t any legendary backpieces in the game. So in January when they announced there would be new legendaries, exactly zero people were thinking they would be backpieces. Heck, if you want to get technical, they did say a few years ago that legendary trinkets were coming. How’s that coming along?

So it is misleading because when they announced it the flipping corner of the internet that die-hard GW2 fans like myself reside in all did a collective backflip and dragon emote at the same time because we thought we were finally getting new legendary weapons after years of waiting.

Except that you have no evidence the legendary back pieces aren’t in addition to the weapons. Do you have some quote or insider knowledge that says that 2 of the three legendary items will be backpieces, because I believe that 3 legendary weapons will be included at the launch of HoT and more will be coming in through the story as it progresses.

This is exciting to me, because it will give legendaries context, something they lacked in the original implementation.

Acrisor.8097:

Andred.1087:

Christ on a pancake, find something else to do! Is it so hard??

Find what exactly? For the past 7 months everything is complete and nothing is new. There is a saying (or title) for moments like this : Been There Done That.

Except for the new jumping puzzle in Lion’s Arch and the Karka hunt that’s true. I enjoyed the Karka hunt though, since it had clues in the achievements panel on where to find them, and audio clues in the world. I thought it was very well done. Enjoyed the jumping puzzle too.

Hulkmaster.1724:

Vayne.8563:

Hulkmaster.1724:

Vayne.8563:

Hulkmaster.1724:

Chazz.6709:

Well Yeah like the other ppls said , but also keep in mind its Beta still .it can be changed and we got just a little zone ,where we was able to play and so on ,also bugged events and other stuff.Anyways … those events felt kinda boring,except that sniping event , but ,if there are like 20 snipers.It feels like bird hunting or so , because most of the time you standed there and waited until it was done or some cheap mechanics got just extended for example I WAS thinking , when i bring supplies to those pact ppls .It would be worth for something , but ATM i can only say.Yeah it does !… but not like you was thinking.You spent some time there building it up and then , when the timer gone …. POOF! destroyed .I was like right …. supporting the pact helping them and the only kitteng thing they can do , was blowing everything up !?

Well this made it nonsense for me to do those events.So i was just running around and fighting against mushrooms and other stuff , which are a real challenge sometimes , but yeah , if those events are like that.

it for me kinda nonsense , because since i entered silverwaste events and so on.I kinda enjoy my work or the work with other players to defend something and working for a huge event called “Vinewrath”,but those kind of events on every map would be …. repetive and weird ? Also effortless … but still.Those verdant brink events ,WHICH we was able to test , was fun , but somehow a waste ,because there was no goal … you did them and done … but still its BETA . So let’s hope for more change and stuff and looking forward for a good HOT expansion , even if i have mixxed feelings about it.

For example the specs … some are really awesome and some are just like or atleast felt like ….“Ohh no we have to do something let’s throw some kitten in it and done… Poof! Dragonhunter done ! … i mean for what ? i dont get the hang with that class seriously or well with that spec.”

I mean 10 skills and one limited traitline ,which grant you access to a new weapon.it’s kinda ugh …. i would like to add another traitline or so , where you can select your elite spec trait .So you would keep your 3 chosen traitline and now can pick up ONE elite spec traitline , would be atleast cool for me .Also i mean it was 50 € we paid.Please give us some great stuff and not only 2-3 awesome specs and some decent ideas about guild hall and wvw….

Let’s see what will come next.

As Seera.5916 said – BWE is like a trailer for the film – whould you demostrate the boring part, expecting people to like it?

In their place i would demostrate cool part, leaving the coolest part to the late game

and if that was “cool” part…

It wasn’t boring to everyone though. In fact, it wasn’t boring to most people I spoke with. I’ve seen movie trailers that bore me from very successful movies and I’ve been very excited by movie trailers that bore my wife.

The fact is not every movie trailer can appeal to every person. You’re trying to make this sound like it’s objectively boring, when in fact, it’s just your opinion that it’s boring.

On the other hand, things were specifically removed from this so as not to ruin the story for people. I wish some movie trailers would do that.

the thing is- in gw2 i’ve seen 3 kind of people:
1) the ones farming something (grinding)
2) the ones enjoing game (i really don’t get why or how. But there are people enjoing free-to-play mobile city simulators, right?)
3) the ones trying to return to game, having faith, that game potential will find it’s place in game

and that’s why the discussion have place to be: not everyone want hard events, not everyone want easy ones

but i still can’t get: how do people see demostrated events interesting? you still just kill mobs, but have progressbar! it don’t have any difference with classic quests, how can anyone enjoy this?!
i don’t get it! but that doesn’t mean i am right or wrong – its just my opinion

I’ll tell you a secret, that might surprise you. The answer to your question about people enjoying the game, is the same as the answer to your problem with events. There are two types of players…those who focus on mechanics and those who focus on immersion. They’re not completely mutually exclusive, but they’re very different beasts. You sound like you’re more interested in mechanics, so those fights are all the same to you.

I’m more interested in immersion and those fights are very different to me. Fighting centaurs in a human area is completely different than fighting off the modrem and it’s not just because of mechanics. My character is doing something.

If you think of action movies, a hero moves from fight to fight, working his way up to the big bad guy. It’s always the same. This fight, that fight, this car chase that car chase. The specifics of each might be different, but it’s always sort of the same. People who like action movies don’t watch them for just the fighting. They watch them for the motivation for the fighting. They watch them to see this really bad guy get his kitten kicked. How is the hero going to overcome this obstacle. It’s the same in just about every action movie, but people still seem to go see action movies.

When I play in the open world and I do events, my character is doing those events. It’s not really RPing, because I’m not interacting with other humans. I’m immersing myself in the world and situation. It doesn’t matter that the fort was only freed a bit ago, when the centaurs attack, it’s might duty to help fight them off. I can enjoy that, and so can a lot of other people.

If you only focus on mechanics, you’re missing a rather large aspect of the game.

Hulkmaster.1724:

And yeah, i like gameplay, not story\lore things, it’s just it – i like to do something, not to watch

story part of.. EVERYTHING! in gw2 is pretty cool (but some of my story lovers tell me it isn’t good enough), but gameplay part (except of SW) looks like “kill 10 boars and there… won’t be 10 boars” “kill 10 majesctic boars so!.. they.. won’t.. kill farmers!”

about “if u focus on mechanics you’re missing some things” – yeah, maybe, but for lore\stories i read books – they are much more interesting; and i play games for gameplay, so yes, i play because of mechanics

I read books too. But I still need a story in my game, one of the reasons PvP doesn’t really do much for me.

The meta, by definition, comes from outside the game. Therefore the meta takes away from my enjoyment.

But if you’re only focused on mechanics, I’m not sure why the open world stuff is even an issue. You haven’t really seen the big boss fights yet. You’ve touched the first area of a new zone.

When the hard stuff comes in, that’s when mechanics players should get excited. Not the first steps into a new zone.

Klocknov.8219:

Vayne.8563:

There’s a big range of things between handed on a platter and killing yourself to get something. I consider the rewards from the Aetherblade dungeon relatively hard to get, but I got them all. I consider the Liviing Story fights, some of them, difficult, but I got them too.

I respect that, and honestly TA:Aether and high level Fractals are going to be more then likely what they gauge the challenge by so you really shouldn’t have to worry since those are the only two things that are really group conent that is challenging. Past that you may have to look towards Marionette, Tequatl and Triple Trouble for Open World content.

Though where as you may not have an issue with it not being handed on a silver platter, quite a few posters have took that as their stance as to why the rewards should be super easy and grindy to get and as quoted here:

The time difference between people who take the grindy path and the fastest people who blitz through the hard path should not be all that vast

So that is where the handed to them on a silver platter aspect comes from. You are willing to take the time and put the effort in to aquiring it, that is perfectly fine and how the rewards should work.

If others get jealous because they see someone with a skin they want, then they should work towards it minus a select few skins that are currently unobtainable that are from the gem store you have all the options in the world to put the effort in and take the time to get it like the players that did already. If that isn’t fun to you then scrap the idea of getting that skin, it is out of your reach and look for something that is fun for you to achieve. But in no way should there not be something to make harder content feel rewarding and in this game rewards are part of the wardrobe system, so taking away unique rewards for harder content makes the game effectively ignore that content after said and done and makes it a waste of time and resources in the development if all the players really have the motivation to do it once or twice because their is better/easier ways to acquire the same rewards that have nothing to do with the content.

A few good examples is dungeon story mode paths and ARAH p4, you either have to hope you can get a pug group that can do it or you have to pay for it for someone trying to make the content worth doing and feel rewarding. So you end up with content that is largely ignored by most the population becuase it is called too hard when in all reality it is just not efficient or rewarding to do. So do we want to see the game continue to do this, release content with the most grindy feeling possible and give everyone access to every new thing or build a game with diversity and where players can choose where to focus and when they feel like leaving their comfort zone they can be rewarded for doing so?

My problem is I think the new stuff will be harder than that, and if you need a lot more than five people….I really really hate pugging. I mean yeah I can probably get 10 people to run hard content in my guild,j but more than that? It would be very hard.

I just hope there’s no like 15 man content, or that a dozen people can do it. Or that it scales down to 10. But my suspicion is the group size is going up.

Hulkmaster.1724:

Vayne.8563:

Hulkmaster.1724:

Chazz.6709:

Well Yeah like the other ppls said , but also keep in mind its Beta still .it can be changed and we got just a little zone ,where we was able to play and so on ,also bugged events and other stuff.Anyways … those events felt kinda boring,except that sniping event , but ,if there are like 20 snipers.It feels like bird hunting or so , because most of the time you standed there and waited until it was done or some cheap mechanics got just extended for example I WAS thinking , when i bring supplies to those pact ppls .It would be worth for something , but ATM i can only say.Yeah it does !… but not like you was thinking.You spent some time there building it up and then , when the timer gone …. POOF! destroyed .I was like right …. supporting the pact helping them and the only kitteng thing they can do , was blowing everything up !?

Well this made it nonsense for me to do those events.So i was just running around and fighting against mushrooms and other stuff , which are a real challenge sometimes , but yeah , if those events are like that.

it for me kinda nonsense , because since i entered silverwaste events and so on.I kinda enjoy my work or the work with other players to defend something and working for a huge event called “Vinewrath”,but those kind of events on every map would be …. repetive and weird ? Also effortless … but still.Those verdant brink events ,WHICH we was able to test , was fun , but somehow a waste ,because there was no goal … you did them and done … but still its BETA . So let’s hope for more change and stuff and looking forward for a good HOT expansion , even if i have mixxed feelings about it.

For example the specs … some are really awesome and some are just like or atleast felt like ….“Ohh no we have to do something let’s throw some kitten in it and done… Poof! Dragonhunter done ! … i mean for what ? i dont get the hang with that class seriously or well with that spec.”

I mean 10 skills and one limited traitline ,which grant you access to a new weapon.it’s kinda ugh …. i would like to add another traitline or so , where you can select your elite spec trait .So you would keep your 3 chosen traitline and now can pick up ONE elite spec traitline , would be atleast cool for me .Also i mean it was 50 € we paid.Please give us some great stuff and not only 2-3 awesome specs and some decent ideas about guild hall and wvw….

Let’s see what will come next.

As Seera.5916 said – BWE is like a trailer for the film – whould you demostrate the boring part, expecting people to like it?

In their place i would demostrate cool part, leaving the coolest part to the late game

and if that was “cool” part…

It wasn’t boring to everyone though. In fact, it wasn’t boring to most people I spoke with. I’ve seen movie trailers that bore me from very successful movies and I’ve been very excited by movie trailers that bore my wife.

The fact is not every movie trailer can appeal to every person. You’re trying to make this sound like it’s objectively boring, when in fact, it’s just your opinion that it’s boring.

On the other hand, things were specifically removed from this so as not to ruin the story for people. I wish some movie trailers would do that.

the thing is- in gw2 i’ve seen 3 kind of people:
1) the ones farming something (grinding)
2) the ones enjoing game (i really don’t get why or how. But there are people enjoing free-to-play mobile city simulators, right?)
3) the ones trying to return to game, having faith, that game potential will find it’s place in game

and that’s why the discussion have place to be: not everyone want hard events, not everyone want easy ones

but i still can’t get: how do people see demostrated events interesting? you still just kill mobs, but have progressbar! it don’t have any difference with classic quests, how can anyone enjoy this?!
i don’t get it! but that doesn’t mean i am right or wrong – its just my opinion

I’ll tell you a secret, that might surprise you. The answer to your question about people enjoying the game, is the same as the answer to your problem with events. There are two types of players…those who focus on mechanics and those who focus on immersion. They’re not completely mutually exclusive, but they’re very different beasts. You sound like you’re more interested in mechanics, so those fights are all the same to you.

I’m more interested in immersion and those fights are very different to me. Fighting centaurs in a human area is completely different than fighting off the modrem and it’s not just because of mechanics. My character is doing something.

If you think of action movies, a hero moves from fight to fight, working his way up to the big bad guy. It’s always the same. This fight, that fight, this car chase that car chase. The specifics of each might be different, but it’s always sort of the same. People who like action movies don’t watch them for just the fighting. They watch them for the motivation for the fighting. They watch them to see this really bad guy get his kitten kicked. How is the hero going to overcome this obstacle. It’s the same in just about every action movie, but people still seem to go see action movies.

When I play in the open world and I do events, my character is doing those events. It’s not really RPing, because I’m not interacting with other humans. I’m immersing myself in the world and situation. It doesn’t matter that the fort was only freed a bit ago, when the centaurs attack, it’s might duty to help fight them off. I can enjoy that, and so can a lot of other people.

If you only focus on mechanics, you’re missing a rather large aspect of the game.

Some people seem to be laboring under the assumption that people want rewards “handed to them”, which isn’t want anyone said. What I want is content that’s not so hard that my connection from Australia makes it impossible for me to do, and if it is that hard, as some people want, I want another way to get that reward.

There’s a big range of things between handed on a platter and killing yourself to get something. I consider the rewards from the Aetherblade dungeon relatively hard to get, but I got them all. I consider the Liviing Story fights, some of them, difficult, but I got them too.

But if you start making stuff MORE difficult, so difficult that people, most people can’t do them… you’re going to lose most people…unless the rewards are something they can attain.

Let me ask all you hard core types this? What is the good of having hard content, if Anet has to stop making content because too many people aren’t playing. You think this can’t happen, but I think it can.

There’s a delicate balance that has to be achieved. I’m not saying hand me something on a silver platter. I’m not saying make something so hard that only the top of the top can do it after hours of practice.

Because I’m pretty sure most players don’t have the dedication to do it, even if they do have the time. And if you think that’s what this game is about for most people, I’m guessing you’d be surprised.

You can buy the expansion and get five character slots too. Youll just be starting over. Then you can keep your old account to get daily log in rewards. See how easy it is. You’re not actually getting anything different.

What you’re probably not taking into account, OP, is the difficulty in starting an MMO years after it launched. It may mean nothing to you, but every player who starts now is behind in one way or another.

Those who have been here since launch not only have items you can’t get anymore, but they’ve experienced content you can’t see anymore. They’ve also had time to build up loot and achievement points, where new players have to start from scratch.

Here’s another way to look at it that’s probably more reasonable. Virtually all games after 3 years drop in price. The game was selling, brand new, for $10 on three seperate occasions. The new people are getting something worth $10 and you’re getting a character slot worth the same thing.

What you get for paying early and more is the years of playing. If it’s not worth it to you, I’m not even sure why you’re interested in the expansion.

Hulkmaster.1724:

Chazz.6709:

Well Yeah like the other ppls said , but also keep in mind its Beta still .it can be changed and we got just a little zone ,where we was able to play and so on ,also bugged events and other stuff.Anyways … those events felt kinda boring,except that sniping event , but ,if there are like 20 snipers.It feels like bird hunting or so , because most of the time you standed there and waited until it was done or some cheap mechanics got just extended for example I WAS thinking , when i bring supplies to those pact ppls .It would be worth for something , but ATM i can only say.Yeah it does !… but not like you was thinking.You spent some time there building it up and then , when the timer gone …. POOF! destroyed .I was like right …. supporting the pact helping them and the only kitteng thing they can do , was blowing everything up !?

Well this made it nonsense for me to do those events.So i was just running around and fighting against mushrooms and other stuff , which are a real challenge sometimes , but yeah , if those events are like that.

it for me kinda nonsense , because since i entered silverwaste events and so on.I kinda enjoy my work or the work with other players to defend something and working for a huge event called “Vinewrath”,but those kind of events on every map would be …. repetive and weird ? Also effortless … but still.Those verdant brink events ,WHICH we was able to test , was fun , but somehow a waste ,because there was no goal … you did them and done … but still its BETA . So let’s hope for more change and stuff and looking forward for a good HOT expansion , even if i have mixxed feelings about it.

For example the specs … some are really awesome and some are just like or atleast felt like ….“Ohh no we have to do something let’s throw some kitten in it and done… Poof! Dragonhunter done ! … i mean for what ? i dont get the hang with that class seriously or well with that spec.”

I mean 10 skills and one limited traitline ,which grant you access to a new weapon.it’s kinda ugh …. i would like to add another traitline or so , where you can select your elite spec trait .So you would keep your 3 chosen traitline and now can pick up ONE elite spec traitline , would be atleast cool for me .Also i mean it was 50 € we paid.Please give us some great stuff and not only 2-3 awesome specs and some decent ideas about guild hall and wvw….

Let’s see what will come next.

As Seera.5916 said – BWE is like a trailer for the film – whould you demostrate the boring part, expecting people to like it?

In their place i would demostrate cool part, leaving the coolest part to the late game

and if that was “cool” part…

It wasn’t boring to everyone though. In fact, it wasn’t boring to most people I spoke with. I’ve seen movie trailers that bore me from very successful movies and I’ve been very excited by movie trailers that bore my wife.

The fact is not every movie trailer can appeal to every person. You’re trying to make this sound like it’s objectively boring, when in fact, it’s just your opinion that it’s boring.

On the other hand, things were specifically removed from this so as not to ruin the story for people. I wish some movie trailers would do that.

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

The original city was founded by Elonians who had Lions. To them, it was a reminder of home. After the city was destroyed, the people kittenettled it much much later had no real connection to the original rulers of the city. They were pirates and sailors. That history is long behind them.

It doesn’t really surprise me that the Captain’s Council elected to choose their own identity rather than an identity that was further removed.

Of course, the original Lions are still there, underwater.

some original building pieces of new amsterdam is still in new york but despite that, it’s still called new york……

That’s true, doesn’t change a thing about what I’ve said. New people really havent’ taken over New York in the last 200 years, as far as I know. The people who took it over 200 years ago, the same government still runs it.

Lion’s Arch has changed governments completely.

Ashen.2907:

Anet set a prerequisite for accessing the content and rewards mentioned. Every one who played the content and/or has the rewards had to meet the prerequisite.

You are asking to not have to fulfill that prerequisite but still have access to the rewards/content.

This means that you are asking for something that others could not have.

The only thing unfair in this situation is your request.

Not to mention some of those rewards can now be bought with Laurels and gold from the Laurel vendor, like the skill point, sprockets, quartz and candy corn nodes for your home instance.

This was already done for new players.

It’s unfair, that I discovered a specific rock band no longer performing concerts. I wish I’d found them sooner, but I didn’t.

The fact is, many veterans are complaining that Anet has more loyalty to new players than they do to veterans. There have been far more posts by veterans claiming this than there are by experienced players.

Some simple examples are that you guys get to do world complete without having to world complete WvW. The base Guild Wars 2 package comes with more stuff than mine came with when I bought it for less money. The entire new player experience was revamped making the game (in some people’s opinions) better/easier for new players but worse for veteran players. New players who buy Heart of Thorns get the core game included free. New players get better leveling and personal story rewards than we ever did. New players can solo the Arah story mode dungeon, most of us had to struggle through it with pugs, or wait for people to help us.

There are many things that veteran players went through that you won’t have to, including months of having to rush to get achievements before they disappeared forever, which was pretty stressful to some people.

When you start a game late, it’s logical you’ll miss some things, but there’s no prejudice here. This is just a perspective you have from not knowing what has happened before you got here. In fact, if you really want to see some kittened off players, talk to players who liked town clothes when they were in the game. lol

The opinions in this thread are amazing to me. Really amazing.

The game was on sale several times already for $10. The game is worth less because it’s OLDER. It’s harder for new people to start.

If you buy the new WoW expansion, you pay $50 and you’re still paying a monthly fee, and you only have to buy the current expansion and WoW. Every single other expansion comes for free.

Guild Wars 2 must compete with other MMOs and they can’t do that by charging full price for every single expansion. What happens when there are two expansions? Three? The barrier to new players entering the game keeps going up.

EQ does the same thing. You get the game you get all the previous expansions.

I’m not even sure why this is such an issue.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Arewn.2368:

Just wanted to put forth an argument against those who don’t want hard content:

Some people like hard content, while others do not. Some people like easy content, while others do not. Preferences like this go in all directions.
So for someone to make an argument such as “all the content should be available to everyone and not bared behind difficulty” is to not realize, or to forget, the above.

Generally speaking (that is to say, barring exceptions such as handicaps) everyone can potentially complete hard content. It doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough for now, you can get better and complete it. If you put forth the time and effort, you could complete it. You’re choosing not to.
And that’s a fine choice to make. This is a game, if it’s not something you enjoy and you don’t have a strong enough motive pushing you to do it, then don’t. That’s your choice, it’s a perfectly viable choice to make, and I respect it.
But the same goes for those on the other side. Easy content can be very unengaging, very uninteresting, very unmotivating. Some people want a bit more difficulty in their gaming experience, and won’t stick around for or enjoy overly easy content.
Easy content can be just as exclusionary as hard content to many members of a playerbase.

The reality is, in an MMO, you have to cater to multiple audiences. A wide variety of preferences and game modes. So it’s fine if you don’t like hard content, just as it’s fine to not like overly easy content. Just realize that both content types will likely need to appear in the game. And if you’re not willing to play it, that’s your prerogative.
A spectrum of difficulty is healthy for an MMO. Easy content is an important learning ground, is the basis of for the game, and provides things to do for new players and the masses in general. While hard content acts as a social motivator, deepens the game, and provides something to do for those interested in higher difficulty challenges.

I can get better. I can move to another place where there’s better Internet, or less latency. Are you suggesting everyone outside the US move there? lol

And that’s the kind of reasoning that doesn’t make any sense. So the game should have content that is playable / doable by players that have bad machines or bad internet?

You keep trying to twist what I’m saying and I’m not going to let you. Have all the content you want that I can’t do because of my location. Don’t lock me off from specific rewards though, because this is a game that everyone in Australia has paid for just like everyone in America and it is absolutely harder for us. To make the content challenging enough for us might be it easier for you. For example, when doing Liadri, that extra .5 seconds is a very long time to be able to see exactly where you are. There were many times I did it and died, even though my machine wasn’t showing anything that killed me. It simply hadn’t updated yet.

So the Liadri mini should be barred from most Australians except the very best? That’s your answer? And it’s not just Australians. It’s people who live in rural areas. It’s people with older machines. Yes, you have to take care of your entire player base, not just the ones who have the best machines in the best locations. That would be considered a normal business practice.

Make the rewards available for something most people can do, and my problems evaporate. Make them tough enough were only a few can do it and with that extra latency I have, I’ll never be able to, and those of us who play from Australia and New Zealand, or those with older machines or bad internet connections can what? Stop playing? Deal with it?

I literally haven’t been able to play Sanctum Sprint for months. Not at all. Can’t finish one single run. That might be fine for you but I think it sucks and I think it’s unfair.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Haleydawn.3764:

By actually playing and doing content, I get between 10-30 shards a day. Getting one on level up is now trivial to the fact they drop everywhere now, not just champion bags.

Funny, by actually playing and doing content, the only shards I’ve gotten came on the rare days I happened to complete the dailies. At no other times have I gotten even one.

I get shards from champ bags and regular drops, as well as SPvP. Not sure why you’re not getting any. Is it possible you’re not noticing them since they don’t go in your inventory?

Arewn.2368:

Just wanted to put forth an argument against those who don’t want hard content:

Some people like hard content, while others do not. Some people like easy content, while others do not. Preferences like this go in all directions.
So for someone to make an argument such as “all the content should be available to everyone and not bared behind difficulty” is to not realize, or to forget, the above.

Generally speaking (that is to say, barring exceptions such as handicaps) everyone can potentially complete hard content. It doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough for now, you can get better and complete it. If you put forth the time and effort, you could complete it. You’re choosing not to.
And that’s a fine choice to make. This is a game, if it’s not something you enjoy and you don’t have a strong enough motive pushing you to do it, then don’t. That’s your choice, it’s a perfectly viable choice to make, and I respect it.
But the same goes for those on the other side. Easy content can be very unengaging, very uninteresting, very unmotivating. Some people want a bit more difficulty in their gaming experience, and won’t stick around for or enjoy overly easy content.
Easy content can be just as exclusionary as hard content to many members of a playerbase.

The reality is, in an MMO, you have to cater to multiple audiences. A wide variety of preferences and game modes. So it’s fine if you don’t like hard content, just as it’s fine to not like overly easy content. Just realize that both content types will likely need to appear in the game. And if you’re not willing to play it, that’s your prerogative.
A spectrum of difficulty is healthy for an MMO. Easy content is an important learning ground, is the basis of for the game, and provides things to do for new players and the masses in general. While hard content acts as a social motivator, deepens the game, and provides something to do for those interested in higher difficulty challenges.

I can get better. I can move to another place where there’s better Internet, or less latency. Are you suggesting everyone outside the US move there? lol

gin.7158:

Vayne.8563:

Temporary problem, until HoT comes out. Though I agree it would be nice, for now, to earn a spirit shard every time you level.

How can this be a temporary problem? If they don’t add any other way to get spirit shards, this won’t be solved. I totally root for giving a spirit shard after a level up.

I’ve posted this problem in the forum and reddit but it were to no avail. I guess the developers don’t give a kitten about this. Or they simply intended to make spirit shards harder to get.

The OPs post intimates he gets nothing for leveling, it’s not just about spirit shards. When the new content comes out, you’ll have a reason to level again. It may not be the same reason, but some might argue it’s a better reason.

Crossaber.8934:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You’re cooking with your wife instead of playing? You’re going to your high paying job? You’re choosing to put those as priority over the game. As you should but still, the people with more time can afford to spend it on gaming. It’s a bummer not everyone has it but it’s part of being an adult. Choose to help your wife or choose to get shiny gear. Your choice

Anet is actually doing fine so far, no necessary gear grind, no lv cap increase.

What I agree with Vague is that, the game should always provide multiple ways to obtain same item.

A) hard contents, faster to obtain
B) casual contents, slower to obtain
C) RNG
D) Buy out

I don’t mind taking months or years to obtain 1 desirable item by option B.

Vague….my new name. I hope that wasn’t a Freudian slip. hahaha

morrolan.9608:

It was changed because they figured out a way to make it easier whilst at the same time getting more money out of players (gems for charges) and cloaking it in an illusion of goodwill.

Unlocking skins account wide is cloaking something under the illusion of good will? lol Okay then.

Not to mention I’ve never paid for a transmutation charge ever and I have about 400 of them.

Temporary problem, until HoT comes out. Though I agree it would be nice, for now, to earn a spirit shard every time you level.

Support has gotten a ton better over the years. It’s still the luck of the draw sometimes, but it’s much much better.

SkiTz.4590:

Vayne.8563:

dsslive.8473:

Stars.2179:

Actually, there are such thing is non-viable builds a well as game play. Just because Goku or Abe or Wethospu can solo the crap out of everything naked doesn’t mean other people can do it. There are such thing as non-viable way of playing for others and for them, sometimes it IS IMPOSSIBLE!

not sure if this was in reply to my response to the arah guy, but here we go

He already managed to complete arah once, so it’s not out of his reach, the thing is that it simply took too long (all dungeons are gonna take long if you’re doing the for the first time) Instead of sking for help or just joining a party and learning as he goes he decides it’s “out of reach” when it really isn’t. No one is saying he should be able to solo arah naked (i surely can’t), you don’t do dungeons alone, you’re there with a group and most of the times (from my experience) people are totally willing to explain the bossfights and to help (ofcourse there are exceptions).

So no, it’s not “impossible”, he jsut made the decision that it wasn’t worht the effort. And thats a totally valid decision, there are skins i like but i just don’t see it being worth the effort, they aren’t “impossible” to obtain for me though (and i’m far from good). It’s just me weighing their value agaisnt whether i’d enjoy getting them. I rather have fun , than force myself to grind or do something unfun for a skin. And that’s okay, i won’t get that skin , i move on.

Wrong or right, that’s the attitude of a lot of people. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. You play games to have fun. If you don’t find dungeons fun, you don’t do dungeons. If they make it so you can ONLY get rewards from dungeons and you want those rewards, you’re forced to do something you’re not enjoying, at which point, it’s not a game anymore.

Sure anyone CAN do it. I can go to the gym and work out too, but I don’t, because I don’t find it fun. The thing is, I have huge amounts of time to play so it doesn’t matter if some stuff I do isn’t fun for a bit, but people who have less time to play…it becomes a bigger deal. How many of these people are there? What is the threshold before they throw in the towel? It varies from person to person.

But it doesn’t make those people wrong.

Doesn’t make them right either

You can’t satisfy 100% of the playerbase
If you don’t find dungeons fun, than you are not going to get the rewards in the dungeons, plain and simple .

There’s still PLENTY of players that find dungeons fun and will do them.

Ya you can go to the gym but you don’t find it fun. Does that mean you are going to complain about not having 6 pack abs or big biceps? Those are the rewards for going to the gym (and dieting lol).

You think its logical and fair to complain about not being able to get those rewards because you don’t find the gym fun?
Because that’s essentially what some of the ppl here are doing – whining unfairly about not getting rewarded when they don’t have the time to do the requirements or don’t enjoy the requirements. Sorry you feel that way, but thats not how life works. You get what you work for.

And yet, the problem really is solved if you give multiple paths to a reward. They’ve already done this now, but adding dungeon tracks to PvP, so there’s a precedent.

Bag slots are my biggest purchase regret since launch.

Hulkmaster.1724:

Vayne.8563:

Hulkmaster.1724:

NetherDiver.6079:

The events themselves were interesting, but I found that I’ve seen them all within an hour or two.

However, you can’t judge whether something has failed when you haven’t even seen the complete version. You saw a beta.

Yeah, i’ve seen just beta version of map

But let’s try to remember bwe before release
Anyone do?

there were boring maps, like that one, and everyone though “naaah, its just a beta, after release we’ll see what its like!”

But after release every other zone were boring, like the ones demonstrated

and that’s why i’ve judging right after the beta, because it’s already been like it: boring beta = boring release

And yeah, i like gameplay, not story\lore things, it’s just it – i like to do something, not to watch

story part of.. EVERYTHING! in gw2 is pretty cool (but some of my story lovers tell me it isn’t good enough), but gameplay part (except of SW) looks like “kill 10 boars and there… won’t be 10 boars” “kill 10 majesctic boars so!.. they.. won’t.. kill farmers!”

there are really good events (i remember most of them from the 1 day, they could’ve been changed a little): all 6 statues chain events are really cool! (at the orr), SW is cool, but others… can’t remember other cool ones…

thats it – i hope zone won’t be boring as it look like right now, but at release it was exactly like i told: boring beta -> boring release

Except that you had exactly none of the temples in Orr in the GW 2 beta, because you couldn’t get to Orr on those betas. The events that you think were really cool, many of them weren’t in beta. I don’t think we got any further than Gendarran Fields in the Guild Wars 2 BWEs.

you are absolutely right!
but…
99% of content was like beta
and 1% was not
and Sw were added much later

I say it one more time: GW2 potential is AWSAME!!
they are moving in right direction
slowly.. too much slow, but they do

but what i’ve seen in beta was boring
and i’m just afraid that, like it was on release, it will be -> 99% like beta, 1% not

And i WANT to be WRONG, i really do, but i’m still afraid

Okay. I didn’t find the beta boring at all. The mobs were harder than in earlier zones, the new skills were a lot of fun, gliding was awesome.

Sorry you found it boring, no idea why.

dsslive.8473:

Stars.2179:

Actually, there are such thing is non-viable builds a well as game play. Just because Goku or Abe or Wethospu can solo the crap out of everything naked doesn’t mean other people can do it. There are such thing as non-viable way of playing for others and for them, sometimes it IS IMPOSSIBLE!

not sure if this was in reply to my response to the arah guy, but here we go

He already managed to complete arah once, so it’s not out of his reach, the thing is that it simply took too long (all dungeons are gonna take long if you’re doing the for the first time) Instead of sking for help or just joining a party and learning as he goes he decides it’s “out of reach” when it really isn’t. No one is saying he should be able to solo arah naked (i surely can’t), you don’t do dungeons alone, you’re there with a group and most of the times (from my experience) people are totally willing to explain the bossfights and to help (ofcourse there are exceptions).

So no, it’s not “impossible”, he jsut made the decision that it wasn’t worht the effort. And thats a totally valid decision, there are skins i like but i just don’t see it being worth the effort, they aren’t “impossible” to obtain for me though (and i’m far from good). It’s just me weighing their value agaisnt whether i’d enjoy getting them. I rather have fun , than force myself to grind or do something unfun for a skin. And that’s okay, i won’t get that skin , i move on.

Wrong or right, that’s the attitude of a lot of people. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. You play games to have fun. If you don’t find dungeons fun, you don’t do dungeons. If they make it so you can ONLY get rewards from dungeons and you want those rewards, you’re forced to do something you’re not enjoying, at which point, it’s not a game anymore.

Sure anyone CAN do it. I can go to the gym and work out too, but I don’t, because I don’t find it fun. The thing is, I have huge amounts of time to play so it doesn’t matter if some stuff I do isn’t fun for a bit, but people who have less time to play…it becomes a bigger deal. How many of these people are there? What is the threshold before they throw in the towel? It varies from person to person.

But it doesn’t make those people wrong.

Hulkmaster.1724:

NetherDiver.6079:

The events themselves were interesting, but I found that I’ve seen them all within an hour or two.

However, you can’t judge whether something has failed when you haven’t even seen the complete version. You saw a beta.

Yeah, i’ve seen just beta version of map

But let’s try to remember bwe before release
Anyone do?

there were boring maps, like that one, and everyone though “naaah, its just a beta, after release we’ll see what its like!”

But after release every other zone were boring, like the ones demonstrated

and that’s why i’ve judging right after the beta, because it’s already been like it: boring beta = boring release

And yeah, i like gameplay, not story\lore things, it’s just it – i like to do something, not to watch

story part of.. EVERYTHING! in gw2 is pretty cool (but some of my story lovers tell me it isn’t good enough), but gameplay part (except of SW) looks like “kill 10 boars and there… won’t be 10 boars” “kill 10 majesctic boars so!.. they.. won’t.. kill farmers!”

there are really good events (i remember most of them from the 1 day, they could’ve been changed a little): all 6 statues chain events are really cool! (at the orr), SW is cool, but others… can’t remember other cool ones…

thats it – i hope zone won’t be boring as it look like right now, but at release it was exactly like i told: boring beta -> boring release

Except that you had exactly none of the temples in Orr in the GW 2 beta, because you couldn’t get to Orr on those betas. The events that you think were really cool, many of them weren’t in beta. I don’t think we got any further than Gendarran Fields in the Guild Wars 2 BWEs.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

its ok for people to quit one aspect of a game. This game is supposed to be virtual world, as long as you feel fullfilled and enjoy somethings, its doing its job.
I didnt open the chest at the griffonrook run. Did i quit the whole game? I just said ehh, im not willing to do what it takes to get that thing, and moved on to something else. Most people are like this. As long as the things they do like feel rewarding and interesting, they are fine.

You may be right. Again it’s a question of balance. If a couple of things are out of your grasp, that’s one thing, but the same non-competitive people who don’t run dungeons, may also not PvP or WvW for exactly the same reason. And those people will look at the game as what can I do and what can’t I do. And again the question is how many of these people are there?

If there’s not that many, it doesn’t matter.

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

It all comes down to balance. Allowing rewards to be sold keeps that balance. I haven’t seen other suggestions that keep it.

Did you miss my solution?

You can mix the two methods – RNG and token based. How?
An item costs a specific number of tokens.
You are always awarded tokens for doing the game content associated with the wanted item.
RNG dictates the number of tokens you are awarded with a set minimum and maximum.
That way you still get that “buzz” of “wow I got 10 token today happy happy lucky day” but you don’t rely entirely on RNG to get your weapon and provided you stick with it you can “fight off” bad luck and eventually get what you were aiming for.

It works for fixing RNG and it can fix other things as well.

Imagine this – you want X item – you can do some hardcore content to get tokens for it which will give you let’s say 10 tokens per day or you can take the “casual” approach that gives you 1-2 tokens per day.
You won’t be as fast as the hardcore but it is most definitely not out of your reach.

As long as you’re giving casuals a reasonable path to the rewards, that’s fine, but I suspect that wouldn’t really be acceptable to the person who wants exclusive rewards. I’d be fine with that system.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.

They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Which isn’t to say a majority doesn’t want the liadri mini and can’t get it. Depends on the reward, doesn’kitten

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

We’re never going to agree on this. You seem to think that everyone has to think the way you do and I think some people think differently. They can want the title and really truly not believe they have any chance at all to get it. That’s a fact, because I know people like that. In spite of the fact that I assure them they can get it.

It doesn’t matter if you’re right. It only matters what people think/feel. I believe there are enough people that feel left out of that type of content, and no amount of talking on your part or mine will change them.

Again – as I posted before the problem in bold is not a game-related problem but a people related problem – their insecurity or perceived incompetence are things they have to sort out for themselves and not something the developers should build around.

I mean – look at it this way – if some people are prone to suicide can video game developers no longer implement dark/depressing themes for fear that one of these suicide-prone people might feel too strained and opt out? That’s absurd.

People’s feeling and perceived problems are well just that – their own feelings and problems. If they can’t handle them why should anyone else? Why should a game be built around it?
If they can’t handle the game then maybe it’s time to move on to something else more comfortable.

Like it or not, people with perceived problems are still a portion of the playerbase and if that percentage is significant, Anet would be foolish to send them packing, or make a game that alienates them.

It all comes down to balance. Allowing rewards to be sold keeps that balance. I haven’t seen other suggestions that keep it. Anyway, I’m not going to convince you, you’re not going to convince me and I strongly suspect neither of us are going to convince Anet, so I’m just going to leave it here. Anet has a better idea of what’s what than I do, and whatever they decide, I’m sure they’re deciding it based on their own metrics, as well as user feedback.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.

They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

We’re never going to agree on this. You seem to think that everyone has to think the way you do and I think some people think differently. They can want the title and really truly not believe they have any chance at all to get it. That’s a fact, because I know people like that. In spite of the fact that I assure them they can get it.

It doesn’t matter if you’re right. It only matters what people think/feel. I believe there are enough people that feel left out of that type of content, and no amount of talking on your part or mine will change them.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

What this game really needed, from the beginning, was stuff for casual people to collect LABELLED as such, and then you could put in those ultra hard rewards. But the game didn’t label that stuff. In Rift there were sparkles that anyone could get and anyone could collect. This game needs something like that to keep more casual people playing, as well as harder rewards for people who want more challenge.

But it doesn’t have that. It’s just rewards. Not easier and harder. There’s very few sets “everyone” can get, and that’s missing. Because that’s missing no one is going to be satisfied.

So the trick becomes kittening off the smallest group of people you can.

But everything else they’ve added so far is obtainable by casual players with very rare few exceptions. How is adding a little few more going to affect the game?

It’s a matter of thresholds. It’s only a few more. But it’s a few more on top of the ones some players can’t attain already. There are people out there who are really mad that they “can’t” get luminscent armor, because the LS achievements are too hard for them. There’s been more than one post about this.

There’s been more than one post about people who feel the game is moving in a direction that’s harder and harder and while it might be laughable to you, it’s certainly not laughable to them.

But the portion of the people who post on forums are going to be the most dedicated people, because it takes effort outside the game. Most casual players aren’t going to post here and those are going to be the ones most affected.

Everyone is going to have a threshold of what they’ll accept before the game is just too hard and they stop playing. Realistically it’s always been like this, and it can’t be stopped. Even right now, there are people who have quit this game because it’s too hard.

The question becomes where you set that threshold. How many people leave? How many stay or come back? How much is enough? There’s no easy answers to any of the questions. I’m not suggesting I have the answers. In fact, I don’t have the answers.

I have a belief that the biggest percentage of players of this game haven’t got a clue about the game and that those people are already feeling a bit…vulnerable for lack of a better word.. We’ve seen some comments about it on the forum already, but not too many.

But you put in just a few more rewards that you can’t get, and a few more rewards, and a few more rewards and each time you cross that threshold, the next most sensitive group of players starts to walk. If you do enough of it, you might well satisfy the hard core crowd, but what is satisfying that crowd costing the company? Again, I don’t have an answer but it’s a question worth noting.

Right now we already have people complaining dailies are too hard now. Dailies take too long. Dailies. And they don’t really reward anything but 10 achievement points that caps out at 15,000 anyway.

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

Sorry OP the moment you compare an MMO to an FPS you pretty much lose credibility. You know, I have this chess board at home and I’m going to return it. I haven’t had an expansion for it in 7 years. /thread

What this game really needed, from the beginning, was stuff for casual people to collect LABELLED as such, and then you could put in those ultra hard rewards. But the game didn’t label that stuff. In Rift there were sparkles that anyone could get and anyone could collect. This game needs something like that to keep more casual people playing, as well as harder rewards for people who want more challenge.

But it doesn’t have that. It’s just rewards. Not easier and harder. There’s very few sets “everyone” can get, and that’s missing. Because that’s missing no one is going to be satisfied.

So the trick becomes kittening off the smallest group of people you can.