Guild Wars 2

A lot of people already think we’re getting raids. But raids as other MMOs have them? Guild Wars 2 style raids. No one knows. But raiding has always been a hot topic on these forums.

That said, they did have a raid CDI a long time ago, and they hired a raid developer. Most people do believe some form of raiding in incoming.

As for the karma change, there should definitely have been warning about that.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Vayne.8563:

TheLordQ.1857:

No mention of the achievements working and giving you permanent rewards means another weekend of ‘you lose whatever you do’. Which means another weekend of ‘I logged in as the new classes, played around a little, and then went back to the game that rewards me for playing’.

Edit: mm I sound bitter, but I’m not. I’m telling ANet why they they might be getting less user feedback then they may hope.

What makes you think they’re getting less user feed back than they hope?

Not gunna bother carefully going over events and reporting feedback if there is no point. I’ll check the classes I’m interested in and then go back to actually earning rewards.

But that’s almost every beta ever for any game. There are always people willing to do the right thing by the community and test the game and there are always people looking for a free demo.

I don’t care about 2-3 days of farming. It’s irrelevant to me. So I’ll test the beta. Basically Anet is doing what all companies I’ve ever seen do with beta. They separate it from the game so you can’t pre-earn rewards.

Which means, in all liklihood, they’ll get the same percentage of people testing as they normally would and it doesn’t matter what any individual does.

Glad it was fixed.

TheLordQ.1857:

No mention of the achievements working and giving you permanent rewards means another weekend of ‘you lose whatever you do’. Which means another weekend of ‘I logged in as the new classes, played around a little, and then went back to the game that rewards me for playing’.

Edit: mm I sound bitter, but I’m not. I’m telling ANet why they they might be getting less user feedback then they may hope.

What makes you think they’re getting less user feed back than they hope?

Happened to me, sent in a ticket, customer service handled it, pretty quickly too.

Engineers to my knowledge, have always been the least played profession.

Dyes are artficially inflated based on availablity. There was never any guarantee those dyes would remain out of the game. Many things have been reintroduced one way or another. I have a lot more sympathy for those who bought these days than those who speculated on them.

All I can say OP is that there are tons of other dyes you can get for free. It’s a costly lesson, but I can see why Anet did this. The artificial scarcity of those dyes wasn’t really helping the game.

OP you’re asking to rewrite human nature and it’s not going to happen. There are always groups of people with different likes and dislikes, but there are also always people who see that their way is the only or “right” way.

I don’t push for a lot of changes I’d like to see in the game, because I know that a lot of the changes would only be positive to me and people like me, and I have no idea if we’re even close to a decent sized group.

But there are a lot of people who believe that this is the “right” way to play Guild Wars 2, and this problem exists on both sides of the fence.

If it weren’t the meta, we’d be arguing about something else.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Vayne.8563:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Torolan.5816:

It is misleading advertisment if Anet had advertised HoT with a sentence akin to:
“Buy HoT to get the new PvP and WvW map.”
I don´t know if they did, but that would be a classical misleading advertisment and illegal or at least disputable in many countries.

Specifically what they said was that the new borderland and the new pvp mode would be coming with the expansion. That doesn’t specifically say one way or the other that it will require the purchase of the expansion, although most would likely assume such, and Anet may have originally considered going that route. However, they have opted to give those to the players for free (the rather strong feedback may have helped this decision along), but that still doesn’t make their initial statement (“coming with the expansion”) false, or inaccurate. It does; however, highlight pretty well how people like to make assumptions and then riot when their assumptions turned out to be inaccurate.

Anet made the decision to include those modes for everyone, instead of limiting it to those that purchase it. People should be applauding that decision considering what they could have done. And you know what this community would say if they went the other way around.

This is another example of Anet not being able to win.

And if they don’t include in in what they’re making with the expansion, people are already saying it’s small. It’s coming with the expansion. The expansion is likely funding it. If people choose not to support that, it doesn’t mean it’s not part of the expansion content.

Lol Vayne, your first sentence kind of comes off as though you’re arguing with me, even though I said the same thing.

Anyway, yes, it’s another excellent example of Anet being in a lose-lose scenario. It wouldn’t have mattered which way they went, someone would have kittened. While I do applaud them for the approach they are taking, to others it just going to lend credibility to their delusions that the expansion is “too small for it’s price” because they now no longer consider those two things to be “part” of the expansion.

Nah I was backing you up. Emphasizing. Quoting for truth. I know you agree with me.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Torolan.5816:

It is misleading advertisment if Anet had advertised HoT with a sentence akin to:
“Buy HoT to get the new PvP and WvW map.”
I don´t know if they did, but that would be a classical misleading advertisment and illegal or at least disputable in many countries.

Specifically what they said was that the new borderland and the new pvp mode would be coming with the expansion. That doesn’t specifically say one way or the other that it will require the purchase of the expansion, although most would likely assume such, and Anet may have originally considered going that route. However, they have opted to give those to the players for free (the rather strong feedback may have helped this decision along), but that still doesn’t make their initial statement (“coming with the expansion”) false, or inaccurate. It does; however, highlight pretty well how people like to make assumptions and then riot when their assumptions turned out to be inaccurate.

Anet made the decision to include those modes for everyone, instead of limiting it to those that purchase it. People should be applauding that decision considering what they could have done. And you know what this community would say if they went the other way around.

This is another example of Anet not being able to win.

And if they don’t include in in what they’re making with the expansion, people are already saying it’s small. It’s coming with the expansion. The expansion is likely funding it. If people choose not to support that, it doesn’t mean it’s not part of the expansion content.

Odyssey.2613:

Vayne.8563:

Stace.1357:

Another guild wars veteran has left the building….

And another two have returned to play. lol

Dream on.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence backs me up. Almost every day we see posts on reddit of returning players. We also see ocassional leaving posts. But far more posts of people coming back than leaving.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Lineage is the WoW of Korea. It’s the most popular MMO there and has been for years. Lineage in the US had to close up shop and go home.

Blade of Soul is popular in China the country with the largest population in the world. But Eastern and Western MMOs seldom do well in the same space.

So, what you are saying is that we cannot compare GW2 to WoW, or to Lineage, or to Blade & Soul. In previous posts you also mentioned we cannot compare it with the original GW, either. You are also ignoring its comparison with Aion, too.

In other words, you refuse to compare GW2 with anything. You refuse to accept how poorly its doing while refusing to accept the data in front of you and also being unable to offer any data of your own.

Vayne.8563:

There haven’t been any mass lay offs. An expansion is coming and Anet is hiring.

Despite how important employees have left the company (Chris Whiteside, John Stumme, Kekai Kotaki), despite how they have turned to the expansion model after the Living World failed to increase their earnings, despite the internal mess that saw the constant reshuffling of people in the last months…

You have a very low bar as far as the definition of “success” goes.

Tell me, Vayne, what are you going to do when Guild Wars 2 is shut down and it’s taken from your life forever?

Vayne.8563:

You claim I’m a white knight and that’s fine, but I invite people to take a good long list at your post history. It’s clear you don’t like the game and the fact that you hang around here to badmouth it month after month should be telling enough.

Really? Have I ever called you a “white knight”? Do you have any evidence of that? Because to me it doesn’t like it’s true. Do I have to remind you about what the forum rules say on wrongly accusing people, Vayne?

Behellagh.1468:

So are you proposing we should have a super heavy cash shop based gaming experience to match Lineage’s growth?

Do you have any doubt that ArenaNet would already have done so if they believed that would increase their earnings?

I’m not saying you can’t compare Guild Wars 2 to Lineage. I didn’t even imply it. Explaining why a situation exists doesn’t mean you can’t compare.

By the same token I don’t see you comparing Lineage West with Guild Wars 2 and Guild Wars 2 East with Lineage East.

Western MMOs are very different than Eastern MMOs, period. That’s a fact. Saying that an established game that’s 12 years old and has a dedicated playerbase doing well is fine. That doesn’t mean Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing well. In fact, they have ZERO to do with each other.

What makes a game successful is whether it meets the expectations of the business plan. Guild Wars 2, according to NcSoft meets the expectations and Anet has said it’s exceeded expectations. That automatically makes it successful.

You don’t really get to pick the criteria for what successful means. That word has a definition which you choose to completely ignore…and that’s okay. It makes you look desperate to prove a point, but I don’t mind that at all.

You claim that because Lineage is doing really well, Guild Wars 2 isn’t. That’s like saying that only the richest companies in any industry are doing well and companies that make less money than them aren’t doing well. In fact, there are some companies that make huge amounts of money and they’re not doing well, because income <> profit.

In your great desire to try to prove this game isn’t doing well, you’re completely ignoring the fact that NcSoft has said it’s meeting expectations, the game hasn’t had any layoffs, Anet is hiring and an expansion is coming out.

If Guild Wars 2 was shut down I’d play another game. It really is that simple. What will you do five years from now when I’m still playing Guild Wars 2? Will you come back and admit you’re wrong?

It’s so easy to say a game isn’t doing well, but there isn’t any evidence of the fact. None at all.

Let’s take a look at the claim that Anet is misleading people by saying PvP and WvW changes are part of the expansion.

What do you suppose the reaction would be if Anet made it so that only if you bought the expansion you could participate in the new WvW or the new PvP. There’d be rioting on this forum and everyone would accuse them of being greedy.

Anet has said all along they don’t want to divide the playerbase. When they act on that, people have the audacity to imply they’re doing something underhanded.

I suppose those same people would be happy if parts of their guild couldn’t join them in their perferred play style, or they were “forced” to buy the expansion.

This is why Anet can’t win.

Lunar Sunset.8742:

It’s really rough maining an ele these days. They aren’t viable in any game mode! WvW, sPvP, and PvE, eles just have no place in any of them.

Best post in the thread. lol

Test.8734:

Behellagh.1468:

Sorry, $6.8 million.

[deadpan] Oh no the sky is falling. [/deadpan]

Not really, but someone’s math is failling.

It’s $ 6.261.640,00.

Behellagh.1468:

That would be more than SWG or EQ at their peak.

Oh wow, SWG is such a success story!!!

…Not.

Behellagh.1468:

That’s why you have to forget about WoW because they are an order of magnitude larger than any other MMO out there in terms of income, ever.

Which is why I mentioned the other NCSoft MMORPGs. How do you feel about GW2 doing worse than Lineage 1 and Blade & Soul? Or doing nearly as bad as Aion? And that already factoring the beginning of HoT’s prerelease?

Lineage is the WoW of Korea. It’s the most popular MMO there and has been for years. Lineage in the US had to close up shop and go home.

How do I feel about an eastern game being played by eastern players making all that money? Fine. How should I feel.

Blade of Soul is popular in China the country with the largest population in the world. But Eastern and Western MMOs seldom do well in the same space. The games that are popular in the East do make a lot of money, but almost never translate well to the West.

Now, I live in the West and out of Western MMOs, Guild Wars 2 is pretty high on the lists of success. There haven’t been any mass lay offs. An expansion is coming and Anet is hiring.

You claim I’m a white knight and that’s fine, but I invite people to take a good long list at your post history. It’s clear you don’t like the game and the fact that you hang around here to badmouth it month after month should be telling enough.

Hell hath no fury like a gamer scorned.

Iason Evan.3806:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not sure how the marketing is misleading. Can you give an example?

You do know because you are a smart dude. But I’ll humor you.

Remember the announcement at PAX South? We had no idea that the WvW Borderlands or the new PvP Mode wouldn’t be part of the x-pac. They are free. But they used them to sell us on HoT as if we were getting that as part of the price. Legendaries! There are new ones. Most people thought that meant the new Legendary weapons. You know, the ones we have been promised would come out since 2013?

Mike: “We aren’t raising the level cap!” as if to say, we aren’t adding an arbitrary system for you to have to grind. Well they are adding in an arbitrary grind in the form of masteries. If I want to kill that boss over there, I sure as heck have to go do stuff before I get to actually do it and spend the points on that instead of maybe other things.

If I’d go back and actually watch the PAX announcement from all the way back in January, I am sure I could find more for you and perhaps some more concrete than the ones I just mentioned. Am I stoked the Borderlands and PvP are free? Totally.

They did however make it seem like we were getting this super complete expansion experience in January but more and more this thing is feeling like we aren’t even going to fight Mordremoth, but rather a season will come afterwards. A season that is pay gated that isn’t finished yet. I am of the opinion they cash gated the seasons and masked them to look like an expansion. Again, just an opinion. I’m not stating that as fact, but time will tell.

I am a smart guy and that’s why I listen to what’s said and also look at what I"m getting. The WvW and SPvP changes ARE part of the expansion as in they come with the expansion. That is when the expansion launches changes to the main game will come. That doesn’t mean you always need an expansion to access those changes. It’s a change to the core game that come with the expansion. It’s only misleading if people aren’t paying attention. I don’t think I’ve played an MMO that hasn’t done something like this.

The legendary weapons are definitely coming slower than I would have thought, however, since most people don’t have the original legendary weapons and they can now work toward crafting precursors it’s a lot of content for people who wanted a legendary but never felt they could get a precursor. Hint, there are plenty of people like that out there.

Your exception with the mastery system though is the one I find most mystifying. Since launch people have been asking for horizontal progression. We’ve had CDIs on it. We’ve had discussions about it that have lasted for years. There’s not enough progression at max level. This same progression system was added to Guild Wars 1 successfully in the from of PvE only skills. Yes, you had to level the skills and some people found it a grind.

Leveling up and getting higher stats is vertical progression which a lot of people are against. Masteries is the thing in HoT I’m the most excited about and saying it’s misleading is misleading in and of itself. I can’t really think of a feature more requested by the playerbase as a whole (as opposed to something like raids which is requested bya vocal part of the playerbase but has also met serious resistence).

As for the complete or not complete expansion, I strongly suspect that all stuff included in the expansion is stuff we’ll get getting even if we dont’ get it at launch. Many games have launched and expansions where they’re not complete and stuff is added to them after, in many games.

The question has never been is it in the box. The people who ask those questions are single player gamers. The question has always been when this game continues what will I get over time. That’s the only realistic way to judge.

As an example, Fractals didn’t exist, weren’t advertised and weren’t a reason anyone bought Guild Wars 2, but Fractals are popular in some circles and they’re the system that replaced the dungeon system moving forward. Though I didn’t buy the game for Fractals, I prefer Fractals to dungeons. I never paid for those Fractals.

If Anet advertised HoT as a complete game that was never going to ever get another update, how many people do you think will buy it? What it looks like to me is that we’re getting a hybrid model of expansions and living world updates, which would certainly appease me.

Because I’ve played games with waiting for expansions and I always hated that last 9-10 months without any major upgrades. I hate it here too. Hopefully this won’t happen next time, because the formula for what they need to move forward is now in play.

cupcakesandcatnomz.3924:

gw2 has been slowly dying since 2013, its not a secret, yeah the expansion has hype and stuff but after 2 days people will have seen everything it has to offer and leave again.
some will stay just to troll and kitten, but once wildstar goes free to play a lot will jump over, leaving just a sour, salty little group of players that’ll ruin it for everyone else :p

This is the funniest post in the thread. Thanks for the laugh mate.

Wildstar is fine for what it is, but it will never replace Guild Wars 2 for most of us. If we’d wanted a traditional MMO we’d still be p;laying WoW.

TJgalon.5012:

Some people think Tuesday may be a magic day for something more, and they started early with the black market. Now I know most wont hold their breath, but you never know what may happen.

I wouldn’t count on this, since there wasn’t anything last year.

I agree with the OP about the Guild Wars 1 anniversaries being more fun, but I disagree with combining them with birthdays, since birthdays are different from the anniversary. The OP is combining different events.

Loyal and veteran are birthday titles for example and has nothing to do with the annivesary. Now it happens in Guild Wars 2 that the anniversary for many of us coincides with the birthday celebration but that’s just a matter of coincidence. For many people it’s not true.

That said, I think both birthdays and anniversaries felt better in Guild Wars 1. Even though I like the gem store returning items/sales thing, I’ve always thought there should be something in game like the birthday cupcakes.

And I’m certainly not as excited about the birthday gifts I get in Guild Wars 2.

Stace.1357:

Another guild wars veteran has left the building….

And another two have returned to play. lol

I laugh, literally laugh every time I see a thread like this. I think the OP needs to look up doomed in the dictionary. It doesn’t mean what he think it means.

As for people saying the game isn’t making money, I’d say 7 million a month is up there in the MMO arena. I think people who think this game isn’t making money haven’t been following the reports. And that 7 million a month doesn’t include China. Those figures can be found under royalties in the profit statement.

Games going downhill all follow siimilar patterns. At some point, there are layoffs. Where are they? Oh, wait, Anet is still hiring. Pretty odd for a doomed game.

The idea this game is doomed or done for isn’t just absurd, it’s laughable. I hope the OP has the class to come back in a few years time to admit that he got it wrong.

Ele is one of the best all round professions in the game, if not the best. If your’e going to walk over a single specialization that you don’t like, that’s okay. Because if it wasn’t this it would be something else.

You remind me of a woman who sold her house because she didn’t like one of the door knobs.

The people who insist on absolutely optimal builds are people I particularly don’t want to play with in the first place. I run dungeons with necros all the time and we do fine.

Decide your play style and if you’re going to allow your enjoyment of a game to be dictated by others. Then make your own LFG group and say all professions welcome. Profit.

Not bad on an engie, mostly used by eles afaik. I use it on a guardian but very few people do.

I think the OP might be forgetting that the content was different before the megaservers. This content was created before megaserver technology was even thought of. So the older stuff is obviously going to be affected.

When the fire ele first launched, as designed, it was a tough, tough fight. You’d go there and all you’d see were dead players. Now it’s a lot easier, because people complained. But it’s also easier because of the megaserver.

I used to do world bosses off hours before the megaserver. sometimes there would be much less players and the fight would be more enjoyable. That said, megaservers have helped the game in other ways, so there’s always good and bad with every change.

It’s 72 hours. You should still be able to buy everything because the first 10 days are going to stack. You’ll have your gems in 3 days.

Iason Evan.3806:

Vayne.8563:

Iason Evan.3806:

It’s not like I don’t get why people would just buy this x-pac sight unseen. I preordered GW2 sight unseen. I followed every bit of info. I posted for years about it on Curse’s site.

The base game of GW2 is the best MMO I’ve ever played. Period. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that the seasons were lackluster and spotty. They had bright spots, but weren’t of the quality I came to expect from ArenaNet. The lack of permanent content didn’t help. The Marionette fight? Temporary. Battle for LA? Temporary. Aetherblade map events? Same. So much great content is just gone. Instead of the game growing, it just got really fun temporary content that I’ll never get to play again.

I don’t think it’s wrong of me to have the assumption that this expansion seems small in terms of geography. When I jumped on the x-pac bandwagon it was to get an expansion pack that was well, expansive. I wanted jungle, desert, tundra, chaparral. I wanted variety.

This thread wasn’t created for the people that already bought the x-pac sight unseen. This was to create a voice for the people that think we may be getting tricked into buying something that isn’t what the devs are saying it is. They are saying it’s an expansion pack when really it feels like paying for a frontloaded seasonal content pack that isn’t finished yet. The devs are the ones that have to think, “Are we being as forthright and honest about what we’re selling as we could be?” Well are you?

Tricked into the buying something that isn’t what the devs are saying it is? This undermines your whole argument. Before that comment I thought you had a legit point. But your original point was they’re not really telling us what it is. So if they’re not telling us what it is, how can people be tricked into buying something they’re saying it is…by your own admission they’re not saying enough.

The fact is, a lot of people are not prepurchasing because there’s not enough information. I did prepurchase because Guild Wars 2 is the best MMO I’ve played for my play style and whatever else is added to it expands the Guild Wars 2 experience for me. If I get 50 hours of play out of kitten expansion, that’s a dollar an hour and less than I spend for most games I’ve bought. I’d be satisfied with that, though I’m relatively sure I’ll get a lot more than 50 hours out of it.

I don’t spend $50 on a game and expect to get thousands of hours out of it no matter what. This is a continuation of the story and lore and experience of a game that I happen to enjoy. I’ve spent more money on less in the past and not regretted that, I seriously doubt I’m going to regret this.

The only problem here is one of self control. For some reason, people feel like they have to play the beta. That’s the only really benefit for ordering now. And if people feel playing the beta is worth it, then people will pay $50 for it, which is a choice each person has to make.

People waste money on crap all the time. They spend money on cigarettes that kill them, gambling that bankrupts them, alcohol that eats away at their liver. They spend money on trips that turn out to be not worth it, because the weather was bad. They buy tickets to shows that cost hundreds of dollars for a couple of hours, just to see a band play songs they already know. They eat at expensive restaurants and get too little food, which they’re not even sure they’re going to enjoy.

At the end of the day $50 for a new game is something each person has to make. But no one is being tricked into anything, because Anet hasn’t really said that much. They told us everything that will be in it and after that, people have to decide if the value is there for them. That decision was easy for me, but I don’t expect everyone to make the same decision as I did.

And some people will get more info and they’ll decide then. We have an announcement about hard content. We have no idea what it is, but some people will see that announcement and decide they have to get the expansion at that point. And they will. Some may decide after that announcement it’s still not worth it.

I’m still not sure what the big deal is.

I didn’t buy the expansion, Vayne. Have not purchased HoT. I am saying their marketing is misleading. Totally separate point from my OP.

I’m not sure how the marketing is misleading. Can you give an example?

Test.8734:

Wow, amazing how GW2 has sold a lot more than the original Guild Wars!

NOT.

In February 2008, NCSoft released a press report: Guild Wars Tops Five Million Units Sold.

So 3 years after release, GW2 has only sold as many units as the original GW2 had sold 3 years after its own release.

I guess everyone saying how the design of the original GW – the very low level cap, the maxed stats items being very easily achieved, the low impact gear had on a character’s stats – made it a niche game must be happy right now. Congrats! By your own definiton, GW2 is a niche game!

DarkSyze.8627:

“Guild Wars 2 Sales More Than Double Thanks To Chinese Launch: Guild Wars 2 has over 3.8 million Chinese players according to a census uploaded to Reddit, all accrued in just two months after launch”.

Fake.

It was a widely spread rumor, but ArenaNet tweeted about how that was fake information, spread from a Chinese fansite.

The true NCSoft reports mention how the China release of GW2 underperformed, even after everything ArenaNet did for it (do you remember how the NPE came from focal groups with Chinese players?).

The original Guild Wars at that point has 4 products, not 1. That’s not Prophecies that sold that many copies, it’s all products. By the time this game has it’s second expansion it will far exceed what Guild Wars 1 did.

Now if you look at the individual number of accounts played/created, you might well get a very different story.

Sicarius.4639:

Vayne.8563:

Sicarius.4639:

I take it this still includes all the double accounts people have and the HoT pre-purchase too. So how many do we divide by to get individual players?

Same as every single mmo that does the same. You think people don’t have multiple WoW or Eve accounts? You think people didn’t have multiple Guild Wars 1 accounts? That’s the nature of the business.

I’m sure it is, but that hasn’t answered my question at all. My concern is population, not a genital waving contest between MMOs.

There’s no answer to your question, but more, there’s not really a possible answer. I have people in my guild who take breaks and come back all the time. One person took a year off and now he’s back full time. Was he counted as a player during that year? He’d always intended to come back.

The fact is, you can’t get a number of people actively playing any game, not even a subscription MMO. As an example, I bought a 1 year sub to Rift and played 3 months, then quit the game completely, never to return. But for the next 9 months I’d have been counted as an active sub.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Why would ANet string along a sale for over near-month period? And release new items or rare re-released items over that time? Could it be to draw people into logging and buying those items? Draw some of those players back? Anyone who thinks the population is as healthy as it was last year is just not paying attention.

I’m no Sherlock Holmes, but in the real world we call that common sense and observation. Don’t know why that’s suddenly a ‘conspiracy’ theory, but far be it from me to tell anyone to otherwise.

It’s a conspiracy theory when you manufacture evidence to try to prove a point. Yes there’s been a downturn, like there is in every single MMO I’ve ever been in before an expansion is launched. But you’re making it sound dire when the actual profit reports don’t show it as dire.

In fact, the evidence you’re sighting is your own experience and observation, and a sale that has occurred each and every year.

When I read your posts all I see is I’m mad at Anet so it’s not doing well and most people agree with my point of view.

I don’t think it’s true.

Sicarius.4639:

I take it this still includes all the double accounts people have and the HoT pre-purchase too. So how many do we divide by to get individual players?

Same as every single mmo that does the same. You think people don’t have multiple WoW or Eve accounts? You think people didn’t have multiple Guild Wars 1 accounts? That’s the nature of the business.

Iason Evan.3806:

It’s not like I don’t get why people would just buy this x-pac sight unseen. I preordered GW2 sight unseen. I followed every bit of info. I posted for years about it on Curse’s site.

The base game of GW2 is the best MMO I’ve ever played. Period. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that the seasons were lackluster and spotty. They had bright spots, but weren’t of the quality I came to expect from ArenaNet. The lack of permanent content didn’t help. The Marionette fight? Temporary. Battle for LA? Temporary. Aetherblade map events? Same. So much great content is just gone. Instead of the game growing, it just got really fun temporary content that I’ll never get to play again.

I don’t think it’s wrong of me to have the assumption that this expansion seems small in terms of geography. When I jumped on the x-pac bandwagon it was to get an expansion pack that was well, expansive. I wanted jungle, desert, tundra, chaparral. I wanted variety.

This thread wasn’t created for the people that already bought the x-pac sight unseen. This was to create a voice for the people that think we may be getting tricked into buying something that isn’t what the devs are saying it is. They are saying it’s an expansion pack when really it feels like paying for a frontloaded seasonal content pack that isn’t finished yet. The devs are the ones that have to think, “Are we being as forthright and honest about what we’re selling as we could be?” Well are you?

Tricked into the buying something that isn’t what the devs are saying it is? This undermines your whole argument. Before that comment I thought you had a legit point. But your original point was they’re not really telling us what it is. So if they’re not telling us what it is, how can people be tricked into buying something they’re saying it is…by your own admission they’re not saying enough.

The fact is, a lot of people are not prepurchasing because there’s not enough information. I did prepurchase because Guild Wars 2 is the best MMO I’ve played for my play style and whatever else is added to it expands the Guild Wars 2 experience for me. If I get 50 hours of play out of kitten expansion, that’s a dollar an hour and less than I spend for most games I’ve bought. I’d be satisfied with that, though I’m relatively sure I’ll get a lot more than 50 hours out of it.

I don’t spend $50 on a game and expect to get thousands of hours out of it no matter what. This is a continuation of the story and lore and experience of a game that I happen to enjoy. I’ve spent more money on less in the past and not regretted that, I seriously doubt I’m going to regret this.

The only problem here is one of self control. For some reason, people feel like they have to play the beta. That’s the only really benefit for ordering now. And if people feel playing the beta is worth it, then people will pay $50 for it, which is a choice each person has to make.

People waste money on crap all the time. They spend money on cigarettes that kill them, gambling that bankrupts them, alcohol that eats away at their liver. They spend money on trips that turn out to be not worth it, because the weather was bad. They buy tickets to shows that cost hundreds of dollars for a couple of hours, just to see a band play songs they already know. They eat at expensive restaurants and get too little food, which they’re not even sure they’re going to enjoy.

At the end of the day $50 for a new game is something each person has to make. But no one is being tricked into anything, because Anet hasn’t really said that much. They told us everything that will be in it and after that, people have to decide if the value is there for them. That decision was easy for me, but I don’t expect everyone to make the same decision as I did.

And some people will get more info and they’ll decide then. We have an announcement about hard content. We have no idea what it is, but some people will see that announcement and decide they have to get the expansion at that point. And they will. Some may decide after that announcement it’s still not worth it.

I’m still not sure what the big deal is.

LostBalloon.6423:

Vayne.8563:

The information will come. This thread isn’t going to rush the information. If you don’t care about the betas then there’s zero reason to prepurchase and worry about it. But getting information sooner than Anet is ready to release it isn’t going to happen.

There are people who feel even what we know about the expansion makes the expansion worth it. All the regulars in my guild have prepurchased it already. And if you’re not sure, don’t. Wait until you know more.

I’m not sure why this discussion has gone on for as long as it has.

Hello Mr. ANET White Knight,

Unfortunately, it is completely unethical to put something up for sale without a full description of the item being sold (yes, that applies to digital content too) Yes, when you sell something, even under the pre-order model, people need to know what is being sold (and to the people who compare them to EA, they are wrong, EA looks like an angel next to them, because you at least know what they will deliver in the DLC)

On one end you are right, it is really up to us, the consumers to not buy into this, which is why I’m also of the opinion the OP, as myself, should wait and see until launch or until more information is given. I don’t get why people are so compelled to pre-order something that does not seem interesting enough to them at the point in time.

That said, on a more legal term, I can’t speak for your country, but in Canada, ANET could face their product (HoT) forced out if enough people complain to consumer protection, because there is not one consumer out there that knows what they are paying the 50$ for HoT, since the product was never fully defined. (until they provide the minimal information that defines their product)

I personally won’t waste my time to do so because I don’t care enough and just won’t purchase HoT until it’s either on sale or that they show me it’s worth the 50$ (and before anyone argues the value of 50$, let’s stick to comparing apples with apples, in such to other MMOs and not restaurant outings or other things)

I did give anet the benefit of the doubt during the first year and had high hopes for them. Bungie traveled a very similar road as ANET with the launch of Destiny, but they reacted much better to user comments and improving the game, they managed to impress me enough to purchase their expansion in a 1h live-stream packed with information. And I’m not saying this to tick off devs or convince people to try another game, but simply in the hope ANET looks at how they handled things differently and learn from it. (but last time I said something like that i got censored… guess that was kind of an answer..)

sincerely,

A long time fan of ANET that is currently kittened of at the state of things.

NB: When everyone was crying for an expansion, I really doubt they meant for ANET to completely stop doing everything else, but instead hoped that the mediocre stuff being delivered was due to other cool content being developed behind the scenes, and this is what hyped everyone when we heard the news, unfortunately, we’ve seen nothing new for almost a year with the world of Tyria standing still. (Not even something as simple as the next world of super adventure box that would’ve kept so many players happy during this drought of content)

PS: “The information will come. This thread isn’t going to rush the information.” – In that sense, you are completely right, this thread will absolutely not change a single thing. And there are clearly not enough ticked off people complaining on the forums (or is it being moderated?) to make anet change how they give us info about the expansion.

I’m sorry but what, exactly is unethical about it? Besides you saying so, I mean.

There’s nothing forcing you to buy it, but then, I’ve never ever bought an MMO or even any type of game where I’ve known everything about it before I bought.

I go to movies too. Do you know everything about a movie before you pay to go see it? Do you know the twist ending? That would ruin the movie for a whole lot of people.

When I buy books I don’t know how the books will go. I don’t even really know if I’m going to enjoy them. I get a back cover blurb, maybe some reviews and it helps if I know the author, but there are no guarantees.

You calling something unethical doesn’t make it so. Particularly because the game is still months away and there’s still time to order it, even up to the last minute. No one has to do anything. The game isn’t out. Saying it’s unethical to offer advanced purchase on something with no real obligation to buy it if you want it later is just silly.

Oh and calling me a white knight to try to discredit me doesn’t make me wrong.

The information will come. This thread isn’t going to rush the information. If you don’t care about the betas then there’s zero reason to prepurchase and worry about it. But getting information sooner than Anet is ready to release it isn’t going to happen.

There are people who feel even what we know about the expansion makes the expansion worth it. All the regulars in my guild have prepurchased it already. And if you’re not sure, don’t. Wait until you know more.

I’m not sure why this discussion has gone on for as long as it has.

Behellagh.1468:

But to be fair Vayne we had the 4th chapter of LW 2 as distraction.

You’ve proved my point. Absolutely proved it.,

Someone in this thread made the comment that Anet is having this anniversary sale because they want to draw people back in because people aren’t playing.

I commented that even when people were playing, they STILL had the anniversary sale, so assuming that’s the reason they’re having it is illogical and unprovable. You saying that there was new content a year ago, means that people were playing…but they still had an anniversary sale.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Obviously, they want you to long in every day to check for sales. Gotta fluff those numbers! My goodness. Are people unhappy with the game right now?

Imagine that.

Except that they did the same thing last year, when people weren’t unhappy with the game. /conspiracy theory

“Check in every day for 21 days for big discounts, returning old favorites, and exciting new items!”

That’s the sentence. I wouldn’t assume there’s a discount every day, though it can be taken that way. I’d say that some days you’ll get discounts, some you’ll get new items, some you’ll get old favorites.

It doesn’t mean everything that comes out it going to be all three.

EverythingXen.1835:

Vayne.8563:

EverythingXen.1835:

You honestly believe Anet doesn’t have a handle on something as basic as the number of zones in HoT this close to release?

Ineptitude on that scale is almost insulting towards Anet. I don’t agree with a lot of their decisions, but they’re not that utterly incompetent.

It’s simple. Anything less than a full continent, or at the very least region sized amount of zones, “triple tiered” or not, is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of customers. And they know they’re not going to deliver on that, so they don’t talk about it.

I think you have less experience than you think you do if you call this inept. No matter what you plan in a creative endeavor, things change, pretty much all the time. I’ve had to rewrite the last half of a book because something changed in the beginning of the book due to editorial decision. Before I had to rewrite the project was done.

Anet, in my opinion, didn’t want to do an expansion at all, but instead wanted to continue offering the content as Living Story. In which case the number of new zones wouldn’t be called into question, since they would introduce them as they went along, probably one at a time. You can’t do that with an expansion.

The change of content delivery methods would have to throw a monkey wrench into previous plans. Anet couldn’t wait forever to get the expansion out, so knowing how many zones will be ready and tested by launch is not knowable.

Anyone calling that incompetence is, in my opinion, wrong.

It’s not a creative endeavor. It’s a business transaction.

I don’t make games. I don’t care about the trials and tribulations of switching to an expansion when your LS plans fail. (Though it’d be interesting to hear/read about at GDC or something) I don’t care about excuses. As a consumer, what I care about is what my $$ is going to get me in this expansion.

You cant list the full content, or even intended content, of your product this close to release… No, not even that, just a list of areas being added… simply because you don’t KNOW? But you still want to sell it to me?

I give you its probably not incompetentce considering the number of prepurchases undoubtedly made. There are a few other choice words for it though.

Saying a game isn’t a creative endeavor is just wrong. It is absolutely a creative endeavor, Without the creativity, it wouldn’t sell, and it would be a dead business endeavor. Businesses don’t really make games, they just sell them. Any product that’s produced by artists and writers and editors is subject to the trials and tribulations of those professions.

This isn’t really opinion, this is how it works. It’s why games are often delayed and pushed back. It’s not reasonable to believe that your desire for something is going to change the nature of it.

The less creative a game is, the easier it is to tell exactly what’s in it. Stuff that’s more experimental or needs more testing simply can’t be given an exact date for it to be ready, at least until it’s very close.

Teniz.5249:

Guild Wars Factions

Hundreds of new creatures, guild halls, skills and more
Two new professions: the deadly Assassin and the necromantic Ritualist
A whole new continent, Cantha, either connects to the lands of Tyria or stands on its own
Guilds band together into alliances to gain control of towns and access exclusive Alliance Missions
New game types include missions with ranked scoring and large-scale Alliance vs. Alliance battles

What do we get

8? new zones
1 new pvp mode
1 new class
elite specialization with weapons nobody want to use

worth!

Guild Wars Factions was a standalone game, not an expansion. Eye of the North would have been a better comparison.

Shen Slayer.3058:

Vayne.8563:

Shen Slayer.3058:

Linfang.1087:

This is a classic example of players evolving and thinking outside the box, min maxing the most effective way to obtain high quantities of rewards.

It was never the intentional design of the Developers who created those events to have level 80’s ritualistically rotate through each event, while leaving most other level 80 content abandoned.

On top of the toxicity it created by our own community it got escalated to a level where Devs had to step in and nerf it.

Basically the devs did not intend us to play Queens dale in this manner and squashed it.

The toxicity was overblown, it’s like any train even in SW. The reason it was nerf because a few whiny posters thinks they know whats best for every new players. I ran across the rain when I first bought this game and I thought it was awesome. It didn’t changed how I played the game.

It wasn’t overblown. I was in that zone doing the train some time and there was plenty of it. It gave a bad impression of the game to new people, when only a few people by percentage were being nasty. But it was enough of a problem to move it, that much I’m sure of.

This is an MMO, I’ve have seen people get nasty with each in Lion’s Arch…should we shut it down too?

First impressions are the strongest and Lion’s Arch isn’t the first zone you go into. First impressions are for a reason.

Even the dailies in low level zones are bad for new players as far as I’m concerned, because it’s hard for them to get stuff done when other people are calling out events and porting all over the place. The number of 80s in the zone killing stuff before new players is just bad.

Also, Lion’s Arch has no mobs or events, it’s just people in map chat talking. There’s not much you can do wrong in LA to get yourself yelled at, even if people yell at each other in map chat. But a new person killing something out of order and getting yelled at? lol

No comparison. This is why I said no champ trains in LOW LEVEL ZONES.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Sages.3496:

Vayne.8563:

Answers to your questions, even though I’m not Gaile.

1. No. Players will not get a chance to interact directly with devs. Considering there are hundreds of thousands of players, and not as many devs, that would be completely unworkable and unreaslistic. Forums are how you communicate with devs, unless you’re lucky enough to meet one at a con or something.

2. I don’t really understand the question. Forum moderators don’t generally communicate. Are you asking if the conflict between forum moderators and the playerbase is affected how devs communicate? I find that unlikely.

3. Gaile would have to answer that one herself.

4. There are enough negative posts that remain up for long periods of time to make this comment at the very least disingenuous. Posts are removed for many reasons, and disagreeing with Anet isn’t usually one of them. However, unconstructive posts or posts that are offensive in some way are sometimes removed yes.

5. This post, in my opinion, absolutely should be removed. It’s misleading, unnecessarily confrontational and just adding a line like this is combative. If I were a mod, I’d remove it immediately.

I will state as i did in the post, no hostilities intended in this. which includes that last line.

You can state anything you want, but it doesn’t stop the post from coming off as aggressive and belligerent. If you slap someone and say it’s not aggressive, it doesn’t mean you didn’t slap them.

For one thing, you’re implying posts are removed strictly because they’re negative. That’s misleading and, in fact, accusing, since most people would see that as a negative thing. But it doesn’t take into account the number of negative threads that are completely non-constructive, or just outright rude.

So yes, you can say that you’re not being aggressive, but saying is not the same thing as doing.

I agree with you on all but 5.

There is a huge difference between asking a question and committing assault and battery.

The post coming off as belligerent may very well be you reading into it.

5 isn’t belligerent 4 is. 5 is a passive aggressive attempt at manipulation to get the mods to keep the thread open or trying to make them look bad if they close it.

BrooksP.4318:

The PS is the explanation of the main game. His influence isn’t singular to the PS(Orr and his minions all around Tyria), however due to MMO limitations the effects don’t immediately reflect on the main game. Arah is a dungeon and fractals wasn’t added till later, but is a moot point, difficulty is also irrelevant. He is still the main boss from the current ingame lore, in the same way Mordremoth will be the next main boss once released.

Agian splitting hairs, for what is suppose to be the main boss of the current game or the PS it was lackluster.

Okay you can call it splitting hairs. I consider Lupi who was in the game at launch, a main boss too, but harder because he was in a dungeon. The personal story wasn’t supposed to be hard.

Shen Slayer.3058:

Linfang.1087:

This is a classic example of players evolving and thinking outside the box, min maxing the most effective way to obtain high quantities of rewards.

It was never the intentional design of the Developers who created those events to have level 80’s ritualistically rotate through each event, while leaving most other level 80 content abandoned.

On top of the toxicity it created by our own community it got escalated to a level where Devs had to step in and nerf it.

Basically the devs did not intend us to play Queens dale in this manner and squashed it.

The toxicity was overblown, it’s like any train even in SW. The reason it was nerf because a few whiny posters thinks they know whats best for every new players. I ran across the rain when I first bought this game and I thought it was awesome. It didn’t changed how I played the game.

It wasn’t overblown. I was in that zone doing the train some time and there was plenty of it. It gave a bad impression of the game to new people, when only a few people by percentage were being nasty. But it was enough of a problem to move it, that much I’m sure of.

EverythingXen.1835:

You honestly believe Anet doesn’t have a handle on something as basic as the number of zones in HoT this close to release?

Ineptitude on that scale is almost insulting towards Anet. I don’t agree with a lot of their decisions, but they’re not that utterly incompetent.

It’s simple. Anything less than a full continent, or at the very least region sized amount of zones, “triple tiered” or not, is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of customers. And they know they’re not going to deliver on that, so they don’t talk about it.

I think you have less experience than you think you do if you call this inept. No matter what you plan in a creative endeavor, things change, pretty much all the time. I’ve had to rewrite the last half of a book because something changed in the beginning of the book due to editorial decision. Before I had to rewrite the project was done.

Anet, in my opinion, didn’t want to do an expansion at all, but instead wanted to continue offering the content as Living Story. In which case the number of new zones wouldn’t be called into question, since they would introduce them as they went along, probably one at a time. You can’t do that with an expansion.

The change of content delivery methods would have to throw a monkey wrench into previous plans. Anet couldn’t wait forever to get the expansion out, so knowing how many zones will be ready and tested by launch is not knowable.

Anyone calling that incompetence is, in my opinion, wrong.

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Anet is doing what it does to get exposure out to people not already playing the game…and it’s working. Every time they go to a new convention and announce something completely new, all the MMO sites and some gaming sites cover it, and more sales are made.

Anet doesn’t have to try to sell the game to us. They have to try to sell the game to people who haven’t already bought into Guild Wars.

I do think you’re right about that, but it’s really backwards from what they should be doing. It’s easier to keep an existing customer than to get a new one. Sure, they’re getting new customers with hype but that will run dry sooner rather than later. Keeping your existing customers happy insures stability and continued revenue.

Their entire marketing scheme for HoT just gives me the impression of a quick cashout, rather than a product they’re investing in for the long haul.

I want to want it. I want to be excited about it. But they just aren’t giving me the impression that it’s worth it in the long run.

It’s easier to keep part of the existing client base but there is always, and I do mean always, natural attrition. You can’t keep an MMO going just on the existing player base. You keep the existing players you can, and you try to get new ones to replace the ones who leave. WoW has been doing it for years.

Amineo.8951:

Current characters are not interesting with the possible exception of Braham and Taimi, however I absolutely hate Marjory and Kasmeer for being barbie girls, Rox is in the middle but it could at least become more appealing later on. Old characters except Rytlock (coolest so far, it’s funny to see that him and Tybalt are the characters that people like the most) and possibly Eir aren’t that good either, and we all hate Trahearne…

You see Marjory as a barbie girl? Are we even playing the same game?

Ashen.2907:

Iason Evan.3806:

usernameisapain.7163:

UnknownRH.4592:

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s a little ridiculous how little detailed information we’ve gotten at this point. I’m not pre-ordering until I know how many maps there are at the very least.

When you guys purchased Guild Wars 2 did you know how many maps you will get with the game? Entitlement is strong in this one. Anet owes you nothing in this regard and crying about it will not make you get it. threatening Anet with your wallet is also not gonna help.

Ah, back then it was a preorder, not a pre-purchase(there might’ve been a pre-purchase shortly before release, or just when they gave us a release date, honestly don’t recall) =) . And I pretty much knew all of what I would get. Don’t remember if all maps were revealed, I actually think that they revealed world map on an occasion or two. Then again, I never complained about knowing exactly how many maps there are, so that argument is void with me.

And majority of people are just making statement, that they won’t buy until they know more. But it seems that a lot of people feel they have to start personal attacks and call everyone entitled, and crying, and attempting to blackmail Anet. Silly, so silly, get of your high horse. It’s a forum, people should be able to make claims, and opinions both ways without anyone insulting one another.

^This is totally reasonable.

I am not trying to blackmail ArenaNet. I’m not making threats. I’m saying if you want my money, let me know what I am getting. My argument is that if they want me to give them money, I don’t want to give it to them and not know what I am getting. For the millionth time, I am not asking that they reveal story beats or plot points. Neither am I asking for spoilers. I want to know how many maps there are. Knowing how many maps there are coupled with the knowledge about how much there is to do in each map in the base game will give me a good indication of how much there actually is to do for my $50.

I honestly do not understand how anyone can argue against this.

A consumer asking to be told what a product package will include befoe spending his money is not only reasonable, it is the ideal.

I agree it’s reasonable to ask. I also believe that there’s a reason for revealing stuff when ANet does. Let’s look at the very simple question of how many maps will launch with HoT?

Let’s say Anet is working on four or five, or even six maps right now. It’s not implausible that that many maps are in the works. But at this time, Anet has no idea how many of them will actually be ready for the launch. They can’t really hold off the launch forever, because people need new content.

So without Anet actually getting closer to knowing how many maps, Anet simply can’t say. The assumption is that Anet knows and they’re just not telling us.

I’m not so sure that’s a great assumption. By the same token, the game isn’t out yet and there shouldn’t be any rush or pressure to prepurchase. Some people wanted the prepurchase, whether you agree with them or not, and threw money at their monitors, so Anet gave it to them.

Anyone is perfectly entitled to ask for all the information they want, but they can’t push people to give information they don’t yet have. Saying I want this information now isn’t quite as reasonable as saying I won’t buy it until I have that information.

Sages.3496:

Vayne.8563:

Sages.3496:

Vayne.8563:

Answers to your questions, even though I’m not Gaile.

1. No. Players will not get a chance to interact directly with devs. Considering there are hundreds of thousands of players, and not as many devs, that would be completely unworkable and unreaslistic. Forums are how you communicate with devs, unless you’re lucky enough to meet one at a con or something.

2. I don’t really understand the question. Forum moderators don’t generally communicate. Are you asking if the conflict between forum moderators and the playerbase is affected how devs communicate? I find that unlikely.

3. Gaile would have to answer that one herself.

4. There are enough negative posts that remain up for long periods of time to make this comment at the very least disingenuous. Posts are removed for many reasons, and disagreeing with Anet isn’t usually one of them. However, unconstructive posts or posts that are offensive in some way are sometimes removed yes.

5. This post, in my opinion, absolutely should be removed. It’s misleading, unnecessarily confrontational and just adding a line like this is combative. If I were a mod, I’d remove it immediately.

I will state as i did in the post, no hostilities intended in this. which includes that last line.

You can state anything you want, but it doesn’t stop the post from coming off as aggressive and belligerent. If you slap someone and say it’s not aggressive, it doesn’t mean you didn’t slap them.

For one thing, you’re implying posts are removed strictly because they’re negative. That’s misleading and, in fact, accusing, since most people would see that as a negative thing. But it doesn’t take into account the number of negative threads that are completely non-constructive, or just outright rude.

So yes, you can say that you’re not being aggressive, but saying is not the same thing as doing.

I wont argue points of views with you or how people may percieve things, in which case you seem to have percieved what i was asking as a way to instigate. so, i don’t think there is a point in continuing this.

I agree with you. In my opinion those that feel disenfranchised might find your post acceptable, but I think a lot of people will find it aggressive. But I’m not going to convince you of it, and you’re not going to convince me.

The only additional thing to say that if this post is closed, I hope you don’t just assume it’s because it’s negative.

BrooksP.4318:

Linken.6345:

but he aint the main boss of the entire game just one of the big ones.

Splitting hairs aren’t we? In the current state of the game, he is the main boss, until they expand that with the other dragons then yes he is just one of the big ones.

He was the main boss of the personal story, which was never really supposed to be as challenging as dungeons or later Fractals. Saying he was the main boss of the personal story is like saying the personal story is the main game, but I never felt like it was.

Sages.3496:

Vayne.8563:

Answers to your questions, even though I’m not Gaile.

1. No. Players will not get a chance to interact directly with devs. Considering there are hundreds of thousands of players, and not as many devs, that would be completely unworkable and unreaslistic. Forums are how you communicate with devs, unless you’re lucky enough to meet one at a con or something.

2. I don’t really understand the question. Forum moderators don’t generally communicate. Are you asking if the conflict between forum moderators and the playerbase is affected how devs communicate? I find that unlikely.

3. Gaile would have to answer that one herself.

4. There are enough negative posts that remain up for long periods of time to make this comment at the very least disingenuous. Posts are removed for many reasons, and disagreeing with Anet isn’t usually one of them. However, unconstructive posts or posts that are offensive in some way are sometimes removed yes.

5. This post, in my opinion, absolutely should be removed. It’s misleading, unnecessarily confrontational and just adding a line like this is combative. If I were a mod, I’d remove it immediately.

I will state as i did in the post, no hostilities intended in this. which includes that last line.

You can state anything you want, but it doesn’t stop the post from coming off as aggressive and belligerent. If you slap someone and say it’s not aggressive, it doesn’t mean you didn’t slap them.

For one thing, you’re implying posts are removed strictly because they’re negative. That’s misleading and, in fact, accusing, since most people would see that as a negative thing. But it doesn’t take into account the number of negative threads that are completely non-constructive, or just outright rude.

So yes, you can say that you’re not being aggressive, but saying is not the same thing as doing.