Guild Wars 2

Well depends on your definition of Bunker I guess, but as far as Mesmers go it’s got high survivability through armor, prot, healing, and regen. I don’t need to rely on stealth all that much, just as a last ditch effort to get back into a fight…usually in 2v1s or worse odds.

Going Pistol wouldn’t help much, because the build has low crit chance. The iMage is pretty much the only Phantasm to work about as normal without crit chance, and TP is nice for both offense and defense.

I can hold out pretty well on a point, but yeah bunker is probably a bit exaggerated when compared to other true bunker profession/build combos. ;-)

You can still get surprisingly decent damage output from mad torment & confusion stacking, and I’m able to last on point longer, w/o using stealth, then any build I’ve played in recent memory.

Sorry, no vids as I have no capture software.

It’s pretty straight forward though, you just shatter like a mad man at close range, and do everything you can to stay alive. ;-) You can use PR, F3, and F4 to get Mantra recharges/heals off without resorting to stealth, and just keep banging illusions in their face to get those Torment stacks, while simultaneously unloading MoP so you can re-charge.

Thieves especially hate this build. They can’t reset a fight like they’re used to doing, every time they stealth I get back at least 2.9k health, and they can’t burst me down that fast either due to the tough/prot, decent health, and regen/heals. And of course they hate Torment. ;-)

I’m also doing pretty good against the other professions in 1v1, including Necros and Eng, although Elementalists tend to be a stale mate. Guards sometimes take a while, but I haven’t run into any really good ones yet…and Warriors just tend to melt. (And so do most Mesmers, usually anyway…good ones are tough, especially good P-Shatter Mesmers can sometimes overwhelm my healing, especially if they time interrupts well to stop my Mantra recharging.)

In playing around with MtD I found myself leaning ever further towards wanting to be able to hold a point against multiple attackers, without relying on stealth to do so. This build aims to find a balance between armor & HPs, as well as providing lots of Protection while still maintaining decent AoE condition pressure.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWl0npTtNqxENcrNytBdyZ8CUHkikySGggB-TJhHwAPLDA4UAE4JAIc/BA

Obviously many things are personal preference, but you get the gist of it. Although Ether Feast would be overall better for healing, I like the Mantra for the 4x Condie Cleanse, and since I have room for Mantra Mastery it gets an 8s CD to boot. The MoP is there mainly for healing support of course.

It features over 2k Toughness with 17k HPs, 236 HP AoE Regens from Phants, and almost 2.8k heals from Restaurative Mantras. With the Forge Runes you get a lot of added Protection as well as an AoE burn once you hit 50% health.

I take MI in all my MtD builds, because you just never have enough clones. ;-) I also kept the Torch in there, because it’s a nice way to start a fight, the Phantasm works well in this build, and TP is also a nice desperation getaway to re-charge Mantras & heal.

This build has been working out very nicely for me. The survivability is quite strong, often even against 2-3 attackers, and you put out respectable AoE condition pressure against them thanks to MtD & Geomancy Sigils, and despite having just 950 Condition Damage.

Although this certainly does trade damage for survivability/support, I do feel the build is fun and effective offensively as well, which is more then I can say for most Bunker Mesmer builds I’ve played.

As I’ve said in a couple of other places, I think it’s pretty strong and definitely makes for a viable alternative to IP as a GM trait. It is a “build enabling” GM trait now, making Condie Shatter a pretty viable build concept for the first time IMO.

As Chaos said, I think it also takes a while to adapt to a new build. While Power Shatter is a firmly implanted meta that is unlikely to be affected much by the MtD change, Condie Shatter now has a very different kind of playstyle. It’s similar to P-Shatter, but hardly the same. You are constantly shattering with Condie Shatter, especially if you have MI and choose Ill Invig over IE. It’s just bam bam bam…after the initial organized dump of a 3x F1 followed by a 3x F2 shatter, I end up shattering every time I get a couple of illusions up in order to keep a continual stream of Torment up.

With IE I was playing differently of course, letting the Staff Clones do their thing, but I found it often difficult to keep Clones up long enough to matter.

I too have had good success against even Eles, Guardians, and Warriors despite all their cleanses. They just can’t keep up.

I’ve also played 4/4/0/0/6 hybrid Cele, and it was pretty fun but more difficult due to being squishier. With Pack Runes and SoD I had over 1700 Power and over 900 Condie damage base. There were times where it was very impressive, dealing 1.7k per clone on a 3 clone shatter, plus the 6 stacks of Torment. That’s with about 9 or so stacks of Might, so it gets even better with more. The downside was it was a lot more like P-Shatter in that Thieves and focus-fire just really hurt badly, and against competent opponents the trade-off of getting 6 stacks of Torment wasn’t worth the loss of the instant DD from P-Shatter. It was fun and probably someone can make it work much better then myself, but it has several weaknesses with mobility, lack of condie cleanse, etc. that make it not quite viable IMHO.

In short though, I like MtD now and consider it a solid GM trait. Condie Shatter is a good alternative to P-Shatter in sPvP at least, being easier to play/survive for newer players and casual players. That’s IMO it’s niche. It’s effective, but if you’re a Mesmer god, you’re still better off with P-Shatter or perhaps some of the other meta builds.

I don’t see how what you’re saying stands in contradiction to what I said at all, Pyro. You’re talking team composition, iow organized team play, and I clearly stated that I believe Power Shatter will continue to dominate there for obvious reasons. Yes, one of those reasons is boon stripping, which I didn’t mention, but I was comparing the damage aspects of the two builds.

In organized play it’s going to be easier to counter Condie Shatter then Power Shatter, that was my point. That doesn’t mean the change to MtD or Condie Shatter as a whole isn’t viable overall. Giving it any more would clearly make it OPd, but the nature of what makes it inferior to Power Shatter no longer has anything to do with the fact that MtD sucks, or is overall inferior to IP. It’s a solid GM trait now that makes the concept of Condie Shatter actually work, which doesn’t guaranty that it outperforms all other builds in all other aspects of the game. :P

Those were the two main reasons IMO for Condie Shatter being weak, and MtD being fairly pointless, as even IP in a Condie Shatter build was more useful. This change makes Condie Shatter quite powerful from an offensive perspective, and makes MtD a very viable alternative to IP for a Condie Shatter build.

I don’t disagree with anything you say…but no, I don’t think the build you mentioned is any more viable in organized team play. It provides boon strip, sure, but still fails to outshine a good Power Shatter Mesmer from a damage-output point of view.

And there is another key point, a highly skilled P-Shatter Mesmer really doesn’t gain any survivability from a Condie Shatter build anyway! This is why I said it’s likely going to remain a fun build in unorganized play and mostly for new/casual players who can’t make P-Shatter work for them for whatever reason.

The change is working out very nicely if you ask me, at least in sPvP it finally makes Condie Shatter a viable alternative to Power Shatter, with an acceptable trade-off between skill vs. effectiveness. It requires slightly less skill, low-latency, timing, etc. to play Condie Shatter, as the extra Toughness buys you a slight bit more reaction time and/or play-room for errors, making the build more new/casual player friendly IMO, while still being rewarding to play.

There is no doubt that in highly organized group warfare the instant direct damage of Power Shatter is harder to counter, and this probably will ensure that the balance of power between these builds won’t change much there, but in less organized and/or duel & smaller-scale battles the 0/6/0/2/6 Condie Shatter performs very well now.

This change puts Condie Shatter on the map, finally providing us with a significant AoE condition burst that rivals that of other condition heavy classes. I’ve been fighting Condie Engies and Necros, whom before this change I usually couldn’t hope to defeat with Condie Shatter, and since the change they’ve been having a really hard time with me. Although we don’t have nearly the cover-conditions that both of these classes have, we can now apply a consistent stream of Torment stacks that wears down all but the most heavy condie-clearing professions.

Hint: Ditch the urge to take Illusionary Elasticity, and use Illusionary Invig instead! The F2 Shatter is our monster burst shatter, and getting it 2x in a short period has been more meaningful then IE for me. Also you need MI as a utility for Condie Shatter IMO, and since you have condition clears covered with 0/6/0/2/6 it’s not really hard to work it in. You need MI to get a double 3 Clone F1 + F2 shatter burst off really fast, putting 12 stacks of Torment and 9 stacks of Confusion on people almost instantly.

I generally use The Prestige to invis, get the iMage out while invis, throw down a Chaos Storm, PR in that to get CA and dodge once, F1 shatter, then MI + Dodge and F2 shatter, and then swap weapons again for the SoGeomancy proc . This provides a decent amount of cover conditions and a very heavy AE condie burst. (Burn, bleeds, and lots of Confusion & Torment.)

I’ve been playing that same 0/6/0/2/6 build and agree it was already “almost” viable before, but Maim simply was not really competitive to IP even for a Condie Shatter build. This boost goes a long way to alleviate this, and I’m confident we’ll see Maim used a lot more.

Sadly the recent PU nerfs haven’t ended this silly and pointless argument.

Didn’t your parents tell you not to worry about what other people think of you? What do you think the opinion of anonymous people on an internet forum is actually worth?

Play what you want to play. Play whatever build/style fits you best, and you have the most fun with!

Am I a scrub because I don’t “play to win” professional gaming tournaments? Who cares! People here like to act as if any of them are even remotely playing in that league. lol! Newsflash: Professional video game players aren’t playing a game folks, they’re at work trying to make a living! There is a big difference, and in general they’re not exactly top earners, nor are their “careers” long and fruitful in all but the very utmost of extreme cases.

Lastly, I think some commenters perhaps haven’t actually played or played against a half way decent PU Mesmer recently. It’s changed a bit since the nerfs, and is a lot less passive and less dependent on your attackers willingness to indulge you. (Depending on build at least.) I wouldn’t recommend the old BW build as that was basically the direct target of the nerfs, and is IMO noticeably less effective then before, except for the little bit of added Torment off the Sceper, but that doesn’t really change much. Also, it’s noticeably less tanky then before, any way you slice it…which also means it can be countered more easily then before.

PU Condie wasn’t destroyed by any means, but also isn’t the be all and end all of dueling builds that it was before either. Pretty good balancing job by Anet actually.

messiah.1908:

you wont get the effect as power shatter ever

Perhaps, but that’s an Apples vs. Oranges comparison.

Torment is not only about damage, it’s about control. The whole thing that makes Torment balanced is that you do not absolutely need a cleanse to counter it, you only need to stop moving to cut it’s damage in half. This aspect can not be overlooked!

This is why Torment fits Mesmers very well, and recent changes make it pretty clear that Torment is intended to be the new Confusion for Mesmers; it’s both more balanced from a maximum potential damage point of view, and far more reliable then Confusion for the Mesmer too. (Worst case is 50% damage, not 0% as it is for Confusion.)

Any way you slice it, after this change you will easily be able to put 10+ stacks of Torment on a target, repeatedly and in short succession, thus making cleanses fairly pointless. With 10 stacks on you, you will take easily over 1.7k damage per second if moving, which is over 10k potential damage for the base 6 seconds duration. Unlike MW though, you can apply this with every single one of your 4 shatters as long as you have illusions up.

There is no doubt MtD was rather underwhelming before this change, but with the recent adjustment to 6s duration it actually became kinda “OK”, but simply still not remotely competitive to IP. However, this upcoming buff will boost it’s damage output by 100%! While this will likely not propel Condie Shatter over Power Shatter in popularity, which isn’t and shouldn’t be the goal, it will have a significant impact in the right direction for a viable alternative with a completely different role in group combat.

Again, your goal isn’t and shouldn’t be to out-spike Power Shatter! Your goal is a combined package of added survivability, control, and sustained damage output! Try holding a point with Power Shatter in sPvP against 2 attackers, then compare it to Condie Shatter and you’ll clearly see why it’s an Apples vs. Oranges comparison.

I’m pretty sure we’re going to see a lot of crying INC over this change. ;-)

Ross Biddle.2367:

I wouldn’t even be playing this game anymore if it weren’t for the unique and interesting experience the Mesmer provides. Simple as that.

Not to mention the entertainment factor of smashing those FoTM EZ-Mode professions/builds into the ground through superior play on a more difficult class. :-)

I played the similar concept with a fairly similar build in sPvP quite a bit lately, both with CI and PU, but I didn’t really like it all that much TBH. Although certainly in sPvP you’re far more limited as compared to your build, the main weakness remains, which as you mentioned is Stability and not being able to get rip it off.

Furthermore, I have to ask why you think going that extra tier into Inspiration is worth it over Harmonious Mantras for 3x AoE Daze, and then using MoR for 6x Condie removal.

Also, why not go Sw/Fo & Scp/P? I just can not imagine how having the same MH is ever really viable in any build, and especially in this case MH Sword would get you boon-ripping Clones (better then no ripping at all), BF for defense, and iLeap isn’t half bad either. All better then waiting on CDs or spamming still rather crappy Scepter Clones. I realize you’re wanting to maximize on Scepter #2, but I still don’t think it’s worth it IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

In a build that is based on the concept of Might stacking, I can’t imagine giving up GS for Sc/P. You have both #2 to get 6 stacks, and an AoE interrupt for more. Then you have an awesome damage/control Phantasm, and the lovely new Ming Stab. You also have a strong AA and quite decent Clones with their 3x attacks for getting bleeds out.

GS is a key reason I often get 20+ stacks of Might, and the iZerker just packs a huge punch that is harder to dodge then the iDuelist. (Not to mention the cripple)

For Power-based damage, control, and interrupts the GS is just an amazing package IMO.

Heh whut? On top of DD bleeds, I get AoE burns from Torch, lots of bleeds from illusion crits, and Confusion from Clone deaths, iMage and the occasional F2.

As I said, this is the more Power leaning variant, but it’s much more survivable then a straight power PU build that relies heavily on Stealth/PU to survive. With that 448 extra Toughness (and +1k HPs) you can take a lot more of a beating without being in stealth all the time.

Also with pure Power or Condie builds you always end up with the same problems; some professions are very hard to beat with either power or condie damage alone. This is what ends up driving you to try out a hybrid build, and Celestial is so popular with other classes for just that reason.

As I said in the OP, go with the more balanced hybrid approach if you want more out of your Condies, it works very well too! However, it’s IMO a little more 1v1 focused and also less reliable. Although the Scepter has gotten better, it’s still generally weaker and less reliable then Sword IMHO.

The iDuelist is always very tempting for a build like this, I agree, but I find I have to have Torch + Decoy to really make a decent PU build. While the iDuelist puts out a lot of pain both in bleeds and direct damage, and Magic Bullet is also quite useful so this build for more interrupts, the Torch just works better…for me at least.

This is my favorite new build that is a lot of fun to play, and -ho!- we finally have a Celestial build for Mesmers that works!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8fl0npGtNqxANcrNyqxY6WOZlTtUp3I7AA-TJRHwAW2fQwFBAwTA4YZAA

This is a hybrid build and you will use everything; shatters, phantasms, and condie-damage to down your foes. You have sick survivability from both PU and MoD, and can also obtain large Might stacks quickly due to all the AoE interrupts you have access to. You do have a ramp-up time in 1v1 like most Celestial builds generally do, but in group fights you will very quickly get to 15-25 stacks of Might and ready to get down to business.

It is also quite group friendly for a PU build in that you have AoE interrupts, and can share your boons, while also being pretty survivable even without going into stealth. You have Centaurs for speed, solid condie removal, solid heals, and enough interrupts to shake a stick at.

This build is also much more fun then the old relatively passive PU/Condie build. I’ve been using it for a few days and I’m hooked, I think this will be my build for a while. (I have a often pretty laggy connection and GC builds just simply don’t work for me, so if you’re having a similar issue you might try this and QQ a little less about all those other classes with their Celestial builds! )

Lastly, you can swap SoI for SoD for more selfish play, and gain yet another interrupt and more condie damage. Works very well. I’ve also used Travelers instead of Centaurs for perma speed and that works well too, but overall you get a bit bigger bang out of Centaurs since this build does lean a little more Power then Condie. Speaking of, you can change that too, of course, by using a Scepter and the aforementioned SoD. This will make you much more Condie oriented then the above given build, but personally I still perfer Sword over Scepter.

Absolutely amazing video both in editing and content. I don’t think I’ve seen as informative a video before, with such awesome instruction and slo-motion to really drive home the point!

Agree with the above, this really wants to make me try out GC Shatter again!

Great work! Thanks!

Let us pray it can be abused in order to get it fixed quickly, otherwise it’ll go the way of the Warden. ;-)

It almost certainly must have been an attempt at stealth nerfing PR, I don’t see how something like this just happens by accident.

A little pro-tip for programmers everywhere: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

Nah, I think the real point is they fixed it. It was almost not worth using before, and now I can’t wait for the timer to be up on it. It hits hard, removes a boon, and has a very good AoE radius now.

It was the most obvious path to fixing it, and I applaud them for not going off the deep end with it and giving us something crazy that either is useless (bugged) to begin with, or gets nerfed into useless 1 hour after the patch. ;-)

Highly unlikely to happen, as ANet deliberately nerfed Clone death builds in this last patch. It would be a bit OPd in combination with other CD abilities.

MtD works “OK” for Condie-Shatter builds, but one of the biggest drawbacks of Condie Shatter vs. Power Shatter is that Mind Wrack has a very low CD of 11s, but your most valuable shatter for C-Shatter is F2 CoF, which has over double the CD.

Since investing into MtD pretty much amounts to committing to the C-Shatter play-style, I think it would be a good idea to have MtD significantly lower the CD for just F2/CoF. (25-33%)

I really don’t see MtD getting more Torment stacks, and I think it’s intent is to allow for C-Shatter builds, which personally I think is good for build diversity. However, the recent boost to it did little to make either MtD or the C-Shatter spec completely viable. It’s not entirely terrible, mind you, but it’s really almost always inferior to spec MtD over IP, even for C-Shatter builds. There is just too much utility in IP that MtD completely lacks, and it doesn’t even really bring significantly more damage either to make up for that.

With IP even in a C-Shatter build you get 1 extra stack of Confusion and Might on every shatter, you get instant access to F3 & F4 shatters w/o the need for clones, and op top of all of that your F1 and F2 shatters do more damage if you’re in melee range of the target(s).

Although the old PU builds suffered a lot that doesn’t mean all PU builds are dead now.

Try a Staff & Scepter/Torch PU build like this:
0/0/6/2/6

While you won’t get back all of the survivability you’re used to, properly played the Staff provides a ton of defense from CA, CS, and the teleports. With IE in a Condie build, it also puts out FAR more damage then you’re used to from your old PUC build. (And also solid vs. 2-3 targets.)

I put the 6 in Illusions for MtD, but that’s very optional. The 2 in Inspiration is for Menders Purity, which I use with the Mantra despite only having 2 charges. That’s 4 condies removed, and recharging is done while stealthed or teleporting.

I only shatter in order to burst, and only when I can quickly put 3 clones back up. (I used MI for this, along with Sigil of Dom, and Decoy) You could change MtD to IP for utility and the occasional F2 shatter, or put them elsewhere, but I kinda like MtD every now and then to get a little more AoE damage in group fights, or put more Torment on a guy that I think is trying to run away.

It’s a very survivable build with better damage output then the old PUC build.

Edit: In fact, with the current Ranger problem, I would maybe even change to IP and Materful Reflection now. Also, I used Travelers runes for speed, Doom & Energy Sigils on weapons, and rabid amulet in sPvP. Even w/o that reflection I was eating especially Rangers, Thieves, and Warriors alive.

^ Yep, agreed and I screamed that every chance I got at the “OMG AA Torment! OPd!” crowd.

That said I’m OK with it. It’s a lot better then before, but still far from OPd. The worst part, really, is the Clone generating 3rd attack. It’s like punishment for finishing the chain, rather then a rewarding 3rd strike! Not only do you not get a Torment from the AA, but if the generated Clone overwrites another, you again cancel out more DPS because the new one has to do an attack animation again.

I don’t know for sure, but it seems like this has to be the worst attack chain-finisher in the game. I realize their goal was to create Clones with the Staff AA, but quite frankly I wish they’d just removed the Clone generation and made the 3rd attack in the chain worth executing.

Oh and don’t get me started on the #3…can we please get the channel time down to 2s, pretty please!? /begs

Definitely have tried to come up with a hybrid Condie/Power Shatter build, built around using Celestial Amulet and Might Stacking.

The test results on the dummies was quite nice, but the problems start appearing when you consider heading into sPvP with it. (Maybe in WvW this would work!) The problem is you need some Condie removal yourself, and you need speed. Lacking a Speed Sigil once again rears it’s ugly head here, and as much as I’ve tried using Focus as a full time weapon again, it just still isn’t up to par. The Swiftness it gives is still terrible! (Too short, too long a RuT, and on top of all that can’t be stacked with other swiftness.)

Also, as soon as you start getting a decent amount of Power/Crit/CritDmg into your build, MtD becomes completely overshadowed by IP again. So even if you can live with the downsides of a hybrid shatter build, you will very likely be using IP over MtD.

If you’re really good at mass-creating clones fast, then MtD in a C-Shatter build has the one small advantage that you can turn F3 and F4 into offensive weapons, each supplying 3 stacks of Torment AoE. The problem of course is that all of those, including your Bread & Butter F2 Shatter, are on WAY too long CDs to count on them.

It’s like someone said above, the only reason to shatter for MtD is if you can almost instantly re-create the Clones you’re shattering. That pretty much requires MI, and that’s why I run it. It works quite alright, you can have fun with Condie Shatter, but it doesn’t hold a candle to Power Shatter…but it’s also MUCH more forgiving! ;-)

I don’t think the Celestial Amulet is really the issue here, but rather the excessive/EZ stacking of Might. If you nerfed the Amulet, what would that solve aside from ensuring that -once again- no one uses it? You mentioned Battle Sigils, which is just one example of the core issue IMHO. Many sources of Might simply last too long for a buff, and the longer the base duration, the more OPd it becomes to use percent based Boon duration to extend it.

Even in sPvP it’s rather easy to turn that 20s base duration of Battle sigils into >30 seconds duration or more, allowing 9 simultaneous Might stacks from just Battle sigils alone!

I would really hate to see the Celestial Amulet nerfed to uselessness, when IMHO it should be Might duration that should be looked at and normalized across the board. If an ability gives long duration Might, it should only give 1 or 2 stacks, while only short duration Might should give 3-5 stacks for no more then 5-10 seconds max (base duration).

All that said, I think it should be noted that this hybrid/celestial play-style does have a significant counter play presented by boon stripping and/or stealing. Basically you’re living dangerously if you’re living off boons, because you might have your main weapon taken away from you quite easily, and even turned against you. As a Mesmer I’m perhaps biased on this, because we probably get the most viable means of stripping, stealing, and (now) copying an enemies boons. Either way though, it shows a viable counter option, and perhaps we should simply improve the means for other classes to counter boon-heavy classes, rather then apply a broad nerf to an Amulet.

I agree with a lot of what you say, especially about the old PUC build. I didn’t even find it that ineffective in the 15 minutes that I tested it just out of curiosity, but it was just too darn slow at killing anything! It’s almost like the pace of the game has picked up a lot since the last patch, and PUC just takes too long to get anything done. I’ve always hated the way that build played, and now it’s just gotten much worse. Good riddance I guess.

I too have played mostly condie shatter since the patch, but I think it works quite well in sPvP actually. It is certainly more friendly to the point capture/hold style of play in sPvP then PUC, and is much faster at killing in general, and better at AoE condie application too.

There are some truths to what you say, and I wouldn’t call it on par with Power Shatter either, but then -let’s be honest- the skill level required to play Condie Shatter is also much lower. You’re significantly tougher to kill and have a relatively easy time with Thieves as compared to Power Shatter. A good Thief can still give you a run, but the average trash gets taken out so fast it’s really quite fun.

One major issue that you quickly notice between being reliant on F2 with C-Shatter vs. F1 for P-Shatter, is the obviously longer RuT on F2. There is simply no reason for this and it handicaps C-Shatter even more over P-Shatter.

I also agree that MtD is still questionable as an investment, but the reality is that for a C-Shatter build you have little other choice. It is noticeably better then before the patch, but as you say, 3 stacks of Torment is a little underwhelming for a GM trait and in no way compares to what IP brings to a P-Shatter build. I think they should have given it a slight bit of utility as well, much like how IP really makes the F3 & F4 utility Shatters usable anytime.

I’ve found that with using MI though to quickly get 2×3 Clone shatters in, I can put a pretty good AoE burst out in a group fight using F1 & F2 shatters in quick succession. That puts 6 Torment stacks out, on top of 6 Confusion stacks, and you do see some significant damage numbers popping up.

In conclusion, I wouldn’t say that C-Shatter is absolutely fine and highly competitive, but I do think it’s a viable build now; certainly much more so then before the patch. A large part of that is not MtD though, but IE on Staff clones! If that gets nerfed significantly, which would be a terrible decision by A-Net IMHO, I’d probably say that would just about kill off any Condition build left on the Mesmer since they killed the old PUC build for sure. You pretty much rely on Staff + IE to keep up Condie pressure on 1 to 2 targets. The F2 Shatter CD is just too long to rely on, and MtD too weak as well, especially when not using the F2 shatter. (Killing off 3 clones for 3 stacks of Torment alone is almost always a bad idea, unless you’re pretty certain to hit at least 3 targets with it.)

The Scepter AA & Clones are definitely better then before, but still a joke compared to Staff. So if they’re even thinking about nerfing IE, they had better improve both MtD and the Scepter some more. (For the latter, applying the “Ranger RF fix” to Scepter #3 would be perfect. Just make the channel much faster and it would be a decent ability.)

While I agree with all of the above, generally speaking at least, it is incorrect to say that PU is no longer viable. The old builds are certainly a bit outdated now, but PU is still an excellent GM Trait in a strong trait-line that can be incorporated into viable builds.

It’s just no longer as easy and obviously superior to other builds.

As you well know the Golem simply is not a valid way to test something like this. It’s not just a passive target, but immobile. The speed at which you can stack bleeds with Staff & Clones is greatly dependent on your range to the target, and in PvP that obviously means it constantly changes. A target running away has basically nothing to fear from Staff AA and Clone attacks, same for Scepter of course, and thus you have a huge counter-play right there.

Obviously that doesn’t even include blocks, evades, dodges, teleports, cleanses, etc. that all would make this very ideal scenario very unlikely to happen in PvP.

I don’t think IE is overpowered, even for the Staff. Strong for sure, but OPd is a bit silly when compared to Condie Engie/Necro who can still do more and faster AoE condie applications with more cover Condies and utilities & elites that support the condition playstyle.

I’ve been playing Condie Shatter since the patch and I think it’s more viable then before, and is now significantly faster at killing then PU Condie, which is nice to see considering you have a lot less defense to boot. If you modify PUC to get IE, you really open up gaping vulnerabilities, mainly being extremely susceptible to Condies yourself.

Being finally remotely competitive in the Condie game doesn’t make us OPd. I’m playing Condie Shatter and really enjoying it, but it’s definitely balanced. Finally an alternative to PUC that also has some advantages over it.

PUC is forced into some tough choices now. Go for the bounce and lose cleanses, becoming very vulnerable to Condies yourself, and any way you slice it the defense has been cut significantly. It’s still very viable and should be, but it’s more 1v1 focused, while Condie Shatter can put out some quite decent AoE pressure and has decent non-stealth survivability.

As with any shatter I guess, the trick is to burst at the right moment, and then burst hard and fast. I am loving MI for this now, so I can very quickly get 6 stacks of Torment from MtD and a buncha Confusion stacks to boot.

The noticeable difference to plain shatter builds being I can handle Thieves pretty well.

lol Scepter is -just as expected- still wildly inferior to Staff, both AA and Clones. Not sure what the rather slow & weak Scepter AAs/Clones has to do with 20 stacks of Torment, but left on it’s own it gets about 5-6 stacks on a test golem at close range.

What you’re showing there in those PvE screenshots was very likely just possible before this patch too IMO, and isn’t in any way indicative of an imbalance.

When you count in the 6s off block and then shatter with MtD, yeah you might get 20 stacks on the unkillable test clone or a tough mob in PvE, but it’d be very hard to do that to a remotely competent player in PvP. (And it would still be mainly single target, with only the MtD shatters adding 3-6 stacks in AoE.)

Nerfing it would be silly, since you can still do better -overall- with Staff AAs, Clones, and MtD.

I’d agree that IE on Staff Clones seems borderline OP, but then you run into the updated Rangers, Engies, and Elementalists and you won’t feel so tough anymore. The very first Ranger I came up on nearly insta-gibbed me with RF + LS from long range. (I had 1600 Tough 16k HPs in sPvP)

A player simply won’t let you get much Torment on them. The off block fails frequently and requires being attacked, the clone shatters also fail plenty of times, and the Scepter AA is still too slow to stack any meaningful amounts even if you have 3 clones up and your target is dumb enough to stand still and get AAd by the 4 of you. (Doing the same with Staff is almost twice as damaging and more reliable by far. )

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a big step forward for Scepter, but I was actually surprised how bad it really was. I agree, the bigger change is perhaps the ability to spec the off block down to 6s, which in 1v1 is undoubtably significant.

The changes to Condie damage output seem pretty good, I had fun, but I was far from OPd in a non PU build at least. I’m actually hoping the Power related changes will be more meaningful for the Mesmer class.

I think MtD builds will be more common then before, but probably not by all that much. I think it’ll provide a nice alternative to the glassy Power Shatter builds, allowing people to learn the basics of shatter but with a little less frustration of being super glassy.

Effectiveness of MtD can be argued, I think in organized play it will be largely ineffective, but in other facets of PvP it can probably do surprisingly well against unorganized/inexperienced enemies.

I don’t agree it needs more stacks, but it is still lacking overall for a GM trait.

I think the real strange/annoying thing will be that in many cases you’ll be worse off Shattering your Clones then keeping them alive. You may end up shattering your Phantasms instead! ;-)

I think it’ll be nice to apply some AoE Condies and allow for a burst application of Condies that could be pretty nasty, again especially against disorganized/inexperienced players in group fights.

1) This would make the Scepter Clones completely useless, just as they are now, except for kittenter fodder. This would completely defeat the purpose of improving the Scepter, which even with these changes will still greatly suffer from the slow projectile speed and ease of simply avoiding the attacks by moving.

2) Again, the relatively slow AA attack cycle, coupled with the slow slow projectile speed already makes the rate of application rather slow. The point of the change is to improve the Scepter as a whole, not just the AA. Currently it has the worst clones by far, and is a terrible weapon all around.

MailMail.6534:

I could care less about PU. That nerf was more than necessary. The Mesmer class is all about punishing lazy skill play. Clone death traits are a hallmark of this fact and it being nerfed is a shame.

I disagree. I don’t think Clone Deaths are usually caused by lazy play, but rather that the attacker often has little choice but destroy clones by the fact that so many attacks in this game are multi-target ones. I also don’t think we’re meant to specifically “punish lazy play”, but more generally that we force the enemy to think when fighting us, which is not quite the same thing.

We got a big boost to our ability to apply a strong controlling condition from the Scepter and it’s clones. This will limit our opponents ability to play the way they want to when facing a Mesmer. They will have a harder time chasing after us, or in-turn running away from us. Relying on cleanses alone will not really work well for them either, so they will have to consider standing still more in order to limit Torment damage.

I kinda feel that this abundant Torment love is related to the fact that Confusion is such a weak condition for us. I believe they’re simply afraid to boost Confusion and repeat history, and handed us a new and more balanced alternative control condition instead. There is a big difference in forcing other players to literally not do anything at all in fear of killing themselves, or simply forcing some tough choices on them. Torment is just a more balanced control condition and fits the Mesmer very well.

MailMail.6534:

I don’t disagree with you about the scepter buff promoting passive play, but the alternative now has been the crippling dissipation of Condition Builds. See what I did there?

It’s not like Clone Death punishments are gone, they’ve just been toned down. DD is still a very solid Adept trait in a very solid line.

Lastly, if a build is focused around a single Adept trait, I think it’s a pretty clear indication that this trait is not properly balanced. ;-)

mango.9267:

First, the IE fix buffs a ton of builds, whereas the scepter AA buff benefits almost exclusively condi builds which didn’t need to be buffed.

Which is clearly as intended by Anet, since they said as much. Condie builds had no viable MH option, and really only had Staff that could remotely be called a Condie oriented weapon. Remember, the only Condie builds that are currently popular or “competitive” (OPd in small-scale fights) are getting a sizable nerf.

So yes, clearly Condie builds as a whole need a significant buff, and PU is getting some necessary and significant nerfs at the very same time. This is proper balancing, and will result in more build diversity.

mango.9267:

More to the point, you’re not comparing one skill to another. That is, you’re not comparing scepter AA to staff AA in a vacuum. Rather, you’re comparing the entire condi output of scepter/x to the entire condi output of staff.

I don’t think anyone here is failing to realize this obvious fact.

mango.9267:

Even with IE, the condi output from staff depends (almost exclusively) on AA/clones. Scepter/x, on the other hand, will spit out condi’s on almost every weapon skill. With the scepter AA buff, the overall condi output of scepter/x will just be ridiculous, increasing the problem with mindless PU condi builds.

Isn’t that the point of a Condie focused weapon to spit out Condies? Is there any other Condie-focused weapon that doesn’t do this? The #2 skill is off-block and thus highly situational. The #3 skill is very slow and highly telegraphed and applies a rather weak and short-duration Condition that smart players often simply wait out without the Mesmer being able to punish them for doing so. (Because the Scepter AA & Clones are so weak.)

The Scepter is currently an atrocious weapon in ANY regard. The only thing it had going for it at all was:

1) The Sword is an even worse choice for a Condie Build
2) You really need Torch OH for PU builds, so you need a MH to go with it and see #1
3) The somewhat useful #2 that actually applies a useful condition. (If your opponent attacks you, is in range, and stays in your frontal arc to receive the Torments.)

mango.9267:

Lastly, many PU builds take both staff and scepter/x. Before, replacing a staff clone with a scepter clone meant a significant DPS loss. Not so post-patch.

Yes, which is exactly one major reason why Scepter is such a terrible Condition-focused weapon! People were turning OFF their AA, and used their dodge-rolls sparingly, only to avoid actually using their Scepter for anything but the occasional successful use of #2 and #3! They pretty much only swap to Scepter for The Prestige. That you consider this to be the way a weapon should be designed/played is -quite frankly- rather obtuse.

Look, there are sizable nerfs to PU incoming that will force tougher build-choices on players. PU is getting pigeonholed even more into a 1v1 role, but yes it will be at least as strong in that role as now, and maybe even a tad stronger. However, it will not be as passive as before, not nearly as AoE capable from Clone Deaths, and it will have significantly less defense to boot, which gives it a much more prominent -and needed- “Achilles Heel.”

So the Scepter changes along with PU nerfs are a big plus to build diversity for Mesmers.

Xaylin.1860:

There are no significant improvements for power PU builds unless you count IE for GS. I doubt this will be enough, though.

I don’t agree with that last part. There are lots of goodies for power oriented builds such as the iLeap fix, the boost to GS #3, and the offensive Mantras becoming AoE. All of these have potential uses for PPU builds as well.

I agree that PPU takes a bigger defensive hit for sure, but that’s just the nature of Power vs. Condie and has a lot to do with issues outside of the PU nerf. I think PU will still be worth taking for a Power build, and certainly for a Condie build, but it won’t be quite as obvious a choice as before.

That is actually good for build diversity. You can’t always only buff everything, sometimes it’s easier and more effective to nerf OPd things, and I agree with this nerf; as long as it’s tied to boosts to weaker aspects of the profession, and clearly it is. I think we’ll be seeing more use of non-PU Condie builds, more people using Power Shatter, Mantra-focused builds, and maybe even Condie Shatter.

I’m not convinced that MtD is worth it yet, but equally I’m not convinced it’s still as worthless as it was either. It has the “potential” to do a lot more damage overall then IP can provide a power shatter build, and you get to be a lot tougher in such a build too. Of course IP has a lot of utility aspects too, so we’ll just have to see how this pans out. In competitive play it’s probably not that great, but in sPvP and WvW it could provide a refreshing build alternative.

TooBz.3065:

Anyway, I also worry that they spent 4-6 months coming up with a buff to the scepter and 4-6 days coming up with a PU nerf to counterbalance it.

If they iterated on buffs / nerfs more often then it wouldn’t be a big deal, but we have to live with whatever they do for a long, long time.

On the first part, I really don’t think that was the case. I do believe they wanted to see the player reaction to the buffs first, but I am fairly certain that they intended to nerf PU all along. I think they rather wanted to let us soak up the positive changes first, before smacking us with the nerfs. All in the same day, the Mesmers would have been mor busy crying foul over a PU nerf, then discussing the changes.

It just depends on if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I agree 100% with the second statement you made. I wish they’d spend more time tweaking changes too, but in my over 18 years of playing MMORPGs (OMG! I just seriously realized this! lol!) I’ve wished this for every single game I’ve ever played. I guess it’s harder to do then we think.

Carighan.6758:

Yes, ofc, the whole spec is a bit meh because it’s entirely about getting attacked 1v1. But that’s the same right now.

It’s actually getting a lot of help in that last department from both the Scepter changes, and the fact that you’re highly likely to trait IE instead of the usual 4pts in Domination. This way you can top 1800+ Condie damage in sPvP (w/SoD) w/o Might, which gives you 780+ damage burns.

Runners will have it slightly harder with the Torment from Scepter AA & Clones, and overall you’re not as reliant on the clunky/situational Scepter #2 block to get decent damage output. Both the Staff and Scepter will be able to do significant damage on their own, without relying on Clone deaths.

My guess is, despite the nerfs, it will still be stronger 1v1 then the current PU, and most likely also a tad stronger still in 1v2 or even 1v3. Although, survivability will suffer quite a bit, so 1v3 is a bit harder to judge until we play the changes.

PU is here to stay for better or for worse, these nerfs won’t change that. The build will change a bit to use IE and along with the Scepter changes it’ll be just about as strong as it is now against 1-3 opponents, but it’ll be a little less useful in AoE applications.

In return for these fairly reasonable and expected nerfs, I believe we’ll definitely see more build variety.

Changes look OK to me. I don’t love the double-whammy nerfs on both PU and Deb Disipation, but they’re not devastating either. The fact is, both will remain strong after the nerf, and DD is an Adept trait that will continue to be strong for the sole reason of the Weakness it applies.

During all the Scepter whining I pointed out the strong possibility of a PU nerf coming right along with the changes to IE & Scepter, since they clearly were not divulging all changes in the ready ups. I think ANet is doing the right thing here, as they’re obviously improving several things significantly, but then also nerfing the OPd things at the same time. Wish they’d do that more often! ;-)

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I think people vastly underestimate the improvements to AoE damage output we’re getting. This will not only help in WvW, but will also make Shatter builds even stronger in AoE damage output. They are hardly minor changes and will be useful for far more then just tagging in WvW.

Chaining together an iZerker attack + MW, GS #3, and Power Spike + Powerlock w/HS, is hardly just a tagging operation. It’s a ton of AoE damage in a very short amount of time, all from 1200 range.

I personally can’t wait to see these changes in action…

It will be IE for Condition (and power) builds, and AoE spike damage for power builds that will drown out any cries about the rather tame improvements to Scepter.

A well executed shatter combo with AoE MoD/w HS + AoE MoP + GS #3 thrown in, is going to be a real scrub zerg killer that will make the pre-nerf Glamor Confusion bombs look like they were balanced. ;-)

The two Mantras are of course instant and can be directly executed during the usual shatter combo, and have both moved from single target to 5 target AoE, and the GS #3 is almost instant with a little practice and now hits much harder in a much larger radius.

Fun times for zerg busting IMO…

I still like to play my crazy tank shatter/mantra build that uses 6/6/0/2/0, Empowering Mantras & HM, using usually Cavalier Amulet. It relies on SoIntelligence for huge shatters and Mind Spikes (MoP). Using Staff & GS, so it’s almost a hybrid Phantasm/Shatter/Mantra build.

You can spike for very big damage on a single enemy using shatters right after swapping weapons (turn off AA!), and the Phantasms still do very good damage as well, but I have a ton of Toughness and good condie removal & heals via MoR.

This build is looking forward to the patch too! AoE Mind Spikes, and I would probably run AoE Daze Mantra as well along with Halting Strike.

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

More factors are the buffs from Staff & Clones that will also increase damage and crit chance.

I agree with you in principle Pyro, but I’m not of the opinion that ANet is going to immediately make time to change the Scepter based on our feedback. Most likely they would put it on the back burner for another 1-2 years, and that’s far worse then what this patch will give us. Obviously this will not be OPd, the numbers prove it, it will slightly help out a highly situational non-group friendly build that people love to hate on, but at the same time I do believe it will make other builds more viable and popular.

Straight Condie builds, non-PU, are not commonly seen right now. No wonder, you’ve so far been pigeonholed into either using a terrible MH as your secondary weapons set, or a clearly Power oriented 1h or 2h weapon. Furthermore, spawning Clones by dodging, AA, or #2 while holding a Scepter literally meant screwing yourself over.

Along with the IE fix, making Scepter slightly less broken by providing a unique Condition you can’t get off Staff is while not genius design, sufficient to make the Scepter worth using in condition oriented builds.

I do think we will see some more Mesmer build diversity after this patch.

One thing to note about PU after the patch, there will be better counters to stealth in general. I know I saw Rangers got a big boost to a ‘revealed’ duration that they can put on you, and I think there was something like it for another profession too???

I think both Thief and Mesmer stealth builds will be getting a bit harder in GvG.

Yes, you shouldn’t hold back an entire weapon set and with that condition builds in general, just because PU needs to be toned down. The issue is PU, not the changes to Scepter, which will remain at best an average 1h weapon, but the only viable choice a condie Mesmer has as a secondary/1h weapon set.

Would anyone really care if PU got a reasonable nerf to the durations or frequency of the buffs it applies? Wouldn’t be too surprised if it happened.

There are useful things for GC shatter in this path too; obviously the fix to Sword #3, but also the ability to AoE DD or AoE Daze with Mantras will almost certainly be incorporated into shatter builds & rotations. (Especially since many recent builds already use Halting Strike over MT)

Condition Shatter builds should also be much more viable due to both IE and the slight improvement to Maim the Disillusioned. Not sure if it’s enough, but a step in the right direction.

Lockdown builds got a significant boost from the AE Daze Mantra as well, and these builds are already competitive in group play.

Then there is the iWarden fix. Many people used Focus for GC Shatter before the iWarden nerf, maybe we’ll see it in use more often now. Again, a step in the right direction for diversity.

The Scepter being the condie-focused 1h should come as no surprise, and finally it will live up to that name. As far as simple fixes go, ANet chose the right Condition. It both fits Mesmers and is strong enough to matter, especially making the Clones even remotely competitive to Staff ones. There is simply no way to fix Scepter as a 1h condition weapon, and not boost PU in the process. If PU becomes even more powerful 1v1 with this, I’m sure we’ll see adjustments to the core issue: PU!

I think ANet did a great job listening to input from players on this. I don’t think anyone anticipated the iLeap fix, we’ve asked for this since the very beginning and it was always denied. Finally they listened. Same goes for offensive Mantras becoming AE as well, this alone adds such a huge “unknown” that could change the current meta builds.

GG Anet! Can’t wait to play it!

Hah! Yeah Azure, I hear ya. I love MoP too and I get quite a bit of QQ about it already, now it’s just going to be wholesome clean fun. Let the paper DAoC scrubs cry about Torment on what is still a slow and sub-par weapon, come patch day I don’t think we’ll hear much about this Scepter discussion anymore, but loads of crying about IE, and Mesmers entrance into the ranged AoE spike damage department.

That is an apples vs. oranges comparison, and a highly biased comparison at that. Again, the Staff is multi-target, which most people agree is far more useful then single target, and it comes as no surprise that a 1v1 focused weapon set has higher damage output on that one target, then a multi-target one.

Secondly, you’re factoring in a very spotty ability to apply 5 stacks of Torment on an off-block event that is triggered by pets and players alike, and requires the attacker to be in relatively short range and facing in front of you. In most non 1v1 fights, this off block has a quite terrible success rate.

The mistake in logic that you, and so many others continually fall prey to in balance discussions, is to focus your stance almost entirely on a 1v1 setting, which clearly is not the most important aspect of balance to consider in a game that is almost entirely about GvG or ZvZ! The buffed Scepters damage output will be laughable in a GvG/ZvZ setting, and in most cases still inferior to Staff in a 1v1 setting with IE traited!

And your last statement also makes it clear where you come from, and that your interest in improving the Mesmer class is more likely casual rather then genuine.

The Mesmer Scepter is among the worst weapons in the game right now, and thus ANY improvement you make to it will improve the Staff + Scepter Condie builds…DUH! That doesn’t mean that either Staff or Scepter are or will be OPd, but rather that Mesmers finally may have a remotely decent secondary weapon set for Condition builds, even if that set is (correctly!) focused on delivering single-target damage.

Basically they’re meant to work together. Is there a non PU Condie build that you’d like to show us that is currently considered competitive? I know of none, so your last statement is pretty ridiculous.

I don’t think Scepter AA will be an effective chase weapon at all, maybe I misunderstood that, but the projectile is simply too slow for this to be an issue. Anyone running away will easily outrun all AAs from both the Mes and his clones.

And since so many people are worried about the Clones AA spamming Torment, again I’m wondering if you’ve played Condie Staff Mes??? With 3 staff clones you maintain near 100% burn uptime, no way to clear that either, plus lots of bleeds on top.

Torment is only a good damage condition if TWO factors come together:
1) You’ve got 5+ stacks of Torment on the target
2) Target is moving

So the only way the Mesmer can make his Torment an effective damaging attack is by:

1) applying the 5 stacks from the #2 skill, which is not really within his control to land (very hard to land the larger the fight gets)
2) summing 3 staff clones to maintain 4-6 stacks or so provided your opponent doesn’t kite, no one kills the clones, etc.
3) shattering with Maim the Disillusioned along with some AAs.

Outside of #3, everything we’re talking about here is SINGLE target, and #2 is still very SLOW application of Torment stacks.

I just really fail to see the issue with this. I agree with someone above you said that what will really make people QQ in their Wheeties is Ill. Elasticity on Staff clones. Now we’re talking not just a single target attack, but applying constant burn + bleed to multiple targets. Burn is far more reliable high power condition damage then Torment, with no real counter play aside from cleansing, which will be pointless.

Even without Ill. Elasticity, I don’t see the Scepter clones outperforming the Staff ones, and with EI I really don’t see a case where I would ever prefer to have more then maybe 1 Scepter Clone up over a Staff clone instead, just to get Torment into the mix.

Staff clones have longer attack range, bounces, more reliable condie damage, buffs if I’m close, etc… They just hugely outclasses Scepter Clones still IMO. The same goes for the rest of the weapon too, the #2 skill is only useful in 1v1 and even then is unreliable and easy to counter, and #3 is still too slow, too telegraphed and thus easily avoidable and to add insult to injury, the condition it applies is weak and unreliable.

People will be using Scepter mainly because they’re playing a Condie build already, built around Staff, and thus there really is no other option for a secondary weapon.

As long as Scepter remains a single target focused weapon, it’s simply not going to OPd in any way, shape, or fashion! All of this fear mongering is laughable IMHO, just as Ross said.

I really don’t get what people are whining about with the Scepter AA change. I really wonder if these people have actually ever used Scepter, especially the AA. It’s a slow moving, relatively slow attack-rate, medium range attack that does poor direct damage. It was one of the worst AAs in the game, with a meaningless end of the AA chain. Same for the Clones that it created, they were the most useless clones of all weapons BY FAR.

Giving it Torment makes it only marginally more likely that you’re ever going to stand there and AA, basically only when everything else is down and you have nothing else left to do. It’s a short Torment and you’re not going to ever AA enough to keep any meaningful amount of Torment up unless you also use Scepter clones & #2.

And clearly, if that last part has you worried, you don’t understand what iEasticity fix will do to ALREADY stronger staff clones. (Stronger then the Tormenting Scepter ones I mean.)

It will make PU/Condie a tad stronger and most of us agree that’s not a good side effect, but clearly the problem there is NOT Scepter, but PU. I’m sure we’ll see adjustments to PU once a few other builds become more reasonably viable. I just think ANet is worried about killing off PU before knowing how the new changes work out, and alienating Mesmer players even more then they have already.

I think it’s a good change, and a great move on ANets part to choose the right condition for the Scepter. A single Bleed stack for example would simply not have been enough for both the clones and the AA, but Torment gives the enemy the option to have a weak nuisance of a Condie ticking away on you if you stand still, or a relatively strong one if you move.

It’s as much a control ability as it is a condition damage ability. That’s why it fits the Mesmer perfectly to have more of it! (Especially since they’re keeping Confusion weak.)

One issue that no one is even touching on, that plays a significant role no matter how much crit chance you add to a Carrion build, is the lack of Crit Damage. It is hard to overstate the importance of Crit Damage in a Power builds ability to deliver high DPS.

This is the long standing gripe with Power based builds vs. Condie ones, and IMO is what kills off Carrion gears usefulness in a hybrid role for which it presumably was intended. If it were just the lack of crit chance, but it’s the “death by a thousand cuts” scenario; a little less power, a lot less crit chance, a LOT less crit damage…on top of lower condie damage caused by lower crit rate, less defense since Vit scales terribly in comparison to Toughness….it all adds up to lot of downsides.

Great discussion though!

TBH the build seems a bit all over the place, no offense.

Compounding Celerity can be OK for in combat mobility, but I’m not sure it’s really underrated. It’s just that in many instances when you need mobility the most, your illusions get killed off by AE, tether range, etc. It’s just not reliable enough.

As for Carrion vs. Rabid, don’t forget about all the Toughness on Rabid and the fact that Sharper Images works on all Illusions, not just Phantasms. It’s pretty much the only thing that makes non-staff Clones do any damage at all w/o being killed. Not a big deal, but should not be forgotten in the comparison.

Sure, you can play Carrion in a PU build and still have pretty decent survivability after coming out of stealth, but if you get locked down when Protection is down, you’re a glass cannon through-and-through.

I agree with Sailears, as much as new stuff is neat, I am glad they’re taking the easier path on this one and just going with an increase to radius and damage. Let’s hope it’s enough to make it a little more worthwhile, but personally I think those 2 items are the only thing wrong with the current skill.

It’s a condie/lockdown build, and a pretty critical part is the fairly underrated Confounding Suggestions trait that plays a very critical role in this build. Also, between Interrupts and Dazes, you will load up a lot of Vulnerability and that makes the DD a larger part then I had imagined actually. Although, the point of this build is certainly not DD, but Condie damage & locking your opponent down…forcing him to eat those Condies.

I don’t play Condition & Power together, just because I invest into a Power line. It also has condie-duration, lots of Vuln stacking, CD, and extemely vital boonstrip shatters, on top of CS.

You’re kinda missing the whole point of the build, but thanks for your input. Try it out, might surprise you too as it did me.

This profession is really pretty cool. Every time I get bored, because I feel I’ve tried all possible builds, I end up find some “new” build that is enjoyable to me. (Note: Someone probably has had the idea before, or a similar build, and in that case more power to you!)

I’ve played lock-down builds before, and generally they haven’t been my cup ‘o tea. I’ve played a lot of interrupt focused builds as well, and they can be quite fun for sure, but I always ended up back at the classics of PU power/condi or shatter builds when I end up getting by butt handed to me.

The thought occurred to me when fighting a condie Necro and sigh getting caught again by the old Condie-dump=>Fear combo. "Wait!? We can do that! " And thus this build idea was born, and it ended up working far better then I had imagined. I didn’t think we could compete on the condie-dump part, but we have a boat-load more Lockdown to compensate.

I also never gave Confounding Suggestions the credit that it is due. I often felt that I couldn’t punish players enough during our relatively short —albeit frequent-- lockdowns, but with Condie rather then Power focus, I feel this works quite well. I also underestimated the “tanky-ness” you can achieve in 1v1 and 1v2 due to lock-downs. Thieves especially are having a really hard time dealing with me in this build. (but I’m doing very well in 1v1 against all professions, generally speaking.)

Here is the build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsaWl0npGtNoxRNcrNSpxcqrIdAPUQpPp8GA-TJhHwAo3fAwpAAZZgAPBAA

Important Features:
- Boonstrips from Shatters and Sword Clones, VERY important to this build as Stability is your biggest enemy.
- Ridiculous lockdown from 3x Power Lock, 3s Stun from Signet of Domi, F3 Shatter, Chaos Storm, and Pistol #5. I’ve had quite a few people complain about not being able to fight back most of the fight. Some were quite angry! :-)
- Geomancy Sigils are IMO important to this build to help with condie-burst, but Doom would probably also jive well in 1v1. (I wanted more AoE damage though.)
- Halting Strike might well be worth trying out even with low POW, over Crippling Dissipation.
- I chose Travelers runes over Balthazaar, because I value combat mobility very highly, but I’ve tried Balthazaar as well and the AoE Condie-burst is naturally noticeably stronger!

The play-style is pretty fast and furious, without the pauses that PU/stealth builds generally provide. I suggest having a good hotkey for your Power Locks, because interrupting important opponent actions is definitely part of the skill involved in playing this build well. (Which is why I really should try HS, cuz I usually get a lot of interrupts.) Always have an eye out for Stability, but otherwise it’s all about getting your condie-burst out as fast as you can, and then chain locking your opponent out of being able to deal with those conditions and/or mounting a counter-offense.

It’s also a pretty good team build, because all the stuns and other lock downs really provide good synergy with the higher burst DPS professions in your group. Although you’re not really a bunker, you can bunker down very well against 1 or 2 opponents, without stealthing and thus giving up the point.

The last thing to re-iterate is how incredibly frustrating it is to face this build in 1v1 or even 1v2. Most opponents spend up to 50% of the fight being locked down, and having most of their best attacks & utilities interrupted.

Enjoy!