Guild Wars 2

Archaon.6245:

Yasha.5963:

Archaon.6245:

SunnyJay.5276:

p.s. if you don’t wanna die to the hands of a trap ranger, then don’t stand in the big red circles!? not to hard to figure out

You mean the ones that you can see only if you already went into triggering them? You know they’re called traps…and they are called traps because you actually can’t see them before activation…Please go back hotjoin and never came back…

And a brain is that thing most people have between their ears.

Now where do you suppose a trap ranger holding a point has put their traps? I suggest you try and use that grey matter a little more before QQing, because the answer is pretty obvious.

So tell me genius…how are you supposed to cap a point without stepping into it? Please teach us how to cap points without going into traps inside it…it would be really useful for the whole community, oh and if you are a melee class how are you supposed to kill that ranger before capping if you can’t go near him? Because you know, we’re talking about tpvp not hotjoin crap where you can just give a kitten to point cap and that ranger camping it with traps…

lol some ppl here are just hilarious..

You talk of the “whole community” and tpvp but seem to have no idea what you are talking about. I find it hard to believe that you cannot find any solution to a trap ranger on a point other than to send a (I presume) single melee against it. You don’t have to be a genius…..

Two half decent players should be easily able to take down a trap ranger on a point fairly quickly. A bunker ele is going to last far longer and drop many aoe fields over the point as well as having kd and escape potential, a bunker guardian is also going to last far longer than the trap ranger (or likely any ranger build).

A trap ranger generally works well as an off point holder in tpvp able to reliably beat one player, largly because of how traps work. It lacks mobility, burst, cc, stun breakers and on demand condition cleanse. Its not a full bunker so goes down quickly to focus fire. It is not as strong when on offense (although still good).

You are complaining that a build that is designed to be a tough off-point holder is difficult to beat? If it was easy to beat then it wouldn’t be played as a point holder!

Archaon.6245:

SunnyJay.5276:

p.s. if you don’t wanna die to the hands of a trap ranger, then don’t stand in the big red circles!? not to hard to figure out

You mean the ones that you can see only if you already went into triggering them? You know they’re called traps…and they are called traps because you actually can’t see them before activation…Please go back hotjoin and never came back…

And a brain is that thing most people have between their ears.

Now where do you suppose a trap ranger holding a point has put their traps? I suggest you try and use that grey matter a little more before QQing, because the answer is pretty obvious.

Davinci.8027:

1.) Fix Empathic bond so that the pet actually absorbs the conditions and they do not simply evaporate.

2.) Switch Zephyr’s Speed (5 trait in Beastmastery) with Loud Whistle (15 trait in Beastmastery). That trait is simply too strong to be that low in the tree.

3.) Increase the cooldown of traps or reduce their AoE by a small amount. At the moment, if placed right, traps can completely cover a node which allows for no skillful counter-play. Traps can be placed prior to any engagement and by the time they are triggered they are already up again.

With these 3 fixes, I think rangers will be fine.

Sounds good, if by “fix” you mean completely wreck and nerf into oblivion.

But, yes go ahead and take away the only three good things about rangers.

Traps: Once you step on it the trap triggers and is “gone”

Turrets: A “living” trap that fires off an effect to anyone in range until you go and destroy it.

Back to back turrets sounds OP to me.

I have tried GS but it lacks damage compared to one-handed sword, and one-handed sword also has movement skill and an evade, plus whatever I bring on the second weapon. There is really little reason to use it apart from aesthetics.

I think increasing the damage and making maul into a burst skill would make it shine.

Another thing I find, and this is common to a degree among all ranger weapons, is that they lack synergy with each other.

Take the guardian GS. It has good utility and damage. You can binding blades, symbol of wrath, and whirling wrath (no combo like this on ranger weapons) then switch to hammer and use various skills to take the combo further. Same with warrior.

For example its not like you can take great advantage of the GS stun by following up with some devistating burst ability. The best ranger can do is switch to sword, quickness, and auto-attack.

Ranger damage is so tied to auto-attack and its pet. Only LB has some interesting CD “burst” (not even sure if it qualifies as burst), but that weapon also needs a bit of a damage buff imo.

So I think it is like tasbury said- at one time ranger GS got a lot of synergy from other aspects of the game and skills that combined to make it really strong, but nerfing all the things that made it OP has had a compounded effect and now rangers have a greatnoodle instead of a greatsword.

In my opinion your builds look confused-do you want to be traps, crit, or healing? Why do you need to run fast when you have a bunkerish build?

For tpvp I suggest build C:

Same traits as build A but with armor runes for plus-condition damage (choose any of the several available), carrion amulet with shamans jewel, glyph of hydromancy on the sword, snake trap instead of speed signet, and RAO elite. If you use the healing spring change WS grandmaster trait to barkskin, if you use troll uguent stick with empathic bond.

You can play either as an offpoint holder, or offensively help take a point with your insane amount of condition damage. RAO will keep you on a point and is basically an IWIN button against 100nades engis. Even without the extra healing in your builds A&B you will be fairly tanky and most glass canons will melt under your traps before they can kill you.

This is completely awesome. The devs have given us two of the most requested features for spvp- a map with a new mechanic (if it like eye of the storm it will be great) and ranked matchmaking for teams.

The 1 map per tourney system was a brilliant idea, really made the game more enjoyable. With this new content spvp is going to be a blast. Good work imo.

I’m a big WoW fan and think it is an awesome game. However, the pvp in GW2 is clearly more skilled based. WoW is just about pawning people with lower gear than you and being carried by healers.

There are a few people who have similar gear at top levels or if you turn your xp off at level 60 or 70, but the vast majority of the pvp in that game boils down to who has better gear. That is before you even look at the mechanics of the games, where in GW2 you have active dodging, a deeper condition mechanic, more complex interaction between classes due to various fields, portals, etc, and greater tactical advantages through terrain.

GW2 pvp also promotes a different mindset. Players who enjoy gear-grind are drawn to WoW, whereas in GW2 spvp is more about a skill-grind. You start on an even footing, with only skill and coordination separating good and bad players. People who really like pvp, as opposed to gear-grinding, can flourish in this game.

Just think about the pvp experience when you finally get to level cap in WoW. You play bgs and use your skilz to beat some players, then some overgeared player just stomps you. The only thing you can take from that is “I have to gear up”. There is no skill development here. Not skill based.

Now consider GW2 spvp. You log into the game and almost straight away you can start pvping on an equal footing to everyone else. You get in game and BAM, some thief teleports, backstabs, turns you to stone, and then HS you to death. Many people complain about this, but there is a fundemental difference between this and the WoW experience. The difference is you can only change the outcome of future games by getting more skill and experience in GW2-gearing up is not going to save you.

Simple. GW2 is skilled based pvp, WoW pvp is a kind of semi-pve gear-based grind.

For all that I believe WoW is a great game, if you think WoW pvp is more skill based than GW2 you are highly delusional I’m afraid.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Biggest thing to take away – the format is moving from 8 teams to 2 teams. Other changes will also be coming. Watch for the blog.

Great to hear, the 2 team format is fantastic, thanks!

So does this mean if I use black powder when an enemy is not downed all attacks will miss me for the duration (4 secs), assuming my enemy stays in the black power aoe?

I have noticed that when a thief blinds me when I am downed, the blind effect persists even if I attack them with the number 1 ability. This means of course that it is impossible to interupt the stomp. Is this a bug, or is there some other mechanic I am missing?

What I find worse is that if you are downed and blinded, attacking does not remove the blind, so you cannot break stomp with your interupt, very annoying.

So basically, would you agree that it is not possible to get 9K damage from a pet except under very special circumstances, like hitting a warrior in frenzy when you have many stacks of might built up?

Dardamaniac.1295:

firebreathz.7692:

I dont think there is a reliable method for that amount of damage.. its very situational

Agree..Its something situational,maybe they meant putting 9k in something like 5 secs..

No they said their mesmer got hit for 9K (burst) by a pet. Another poster said it was “easily doable”. Perhaps they were just speaking through their kitten, but if such power is possible I would like to give it a try.

Dardamaniac.1295:

with 25 mastery points spent in BM ive seen Jaguar do 9k dmg to a Warrior with frienzy.From my experience in BM builds i know that birds do a little more “clear” number than cats but cats i think they do more dmg overall.Birds hit hard with the F2 and autohits and i think is possibly to reach 9k numbers with some buffs.It would be like 4,5k 4,5k since it attacks twice

Yes I agree with you on cats versus birds-note that Warrior takes 50% more damage in frenzy so that would have been 4.5K damage (still a lot!).

I am wondering if anyone can clearly lay out how to acheieve this “easily doable” 9k burst though?

I mean we all know that pets can do a lot of damage, and that under some conditions can do more- but when I run a BM type build pets seem to do around 2K damage, with some hits for a bit less some for more. That is far, far away from 9K.

What am I doing wrong?

firebreathz.7692:

Yasha.5963:

Did any of you note the damage? Did you get 9K? If so what was the build and combination to get that level of dadamage? (thanks!)

srry i dont remember the build, i only chose pet damage traits for every trait, this was a seriously gimped build just so the pet could be awsome, not very practical

Yes I can get the pet to do lots of damage, but I haven’t seen it do 9K through the f2 ability yet; that ability for the pet to burst (for 9K) is what I am trying to track down.

Did any of you note the damage? Did you get 9K? If so what was the build and combination to get that level of dadamage? (thanks!)

Rocklin.4106:

my record was 14k on a dolyak, not in pvp but dolyaks have quiet high toughness too, more than a glasscannon player at least.

bird f2 attack hits twice, and these numbers are calculated together, not in a single number, mind you. and you only get such numbers paired with vulnerability, might stacks on your pet ect. i used 30 points bm and had 25 stacks of masters bond on it, then activated rampage as one as well to stack up might stacks on the pet on another mob before blowing its f2 on the dolyak.

in pvp you attack targets that heal themselves, dodge ect so its even easier there to get the might stacks up on your pet with Rao before hitting f2.

What is a dolyak? Is that some monster in pve? There are several problems with using pve ideas for pvp builds, for example gear differences, the unlikelihood for example that you would build any stacks of masters bond (in spvp you generally have to swap pets a lot-usually on cd), etc. You can get stacks with RoA, however.

Has anyone got such high damage with pets in spvp?

Thanks for the advice! -has anyone actually run a build that can do this in spvp?

Someone in the spvp forum said getting a bird to attack for 9K against a squishy in spvp was “very doable”.

I have tried testing various pets in the mists on the light golem and cannot get anywhere near this figure. I tried 20 points in BM with the 30% pet crit trait, and blowing the cds sick-em, signet of the wild, and signet of the hunt (just before F2 attack).

Does anyone know the build and cds/combo necessary to get that kind of damage?

BTW I am only talking spvp- no WvW or pve advice please.

Three D/D eles in a tourney seems pretty OP- there is probably a counter but they are so fast that it always feels like there is three people at every node, and if they are all the little folk then it is even harder to pick which is burst and which is bunker as well.

Yes similar issue for me. If I leave the launcher running it finally connects, but for a long time gives the “Connection error(s) detected. Retrying” error message.

i have had the same problem since the latest patch. Sometimes the game will start after trying to connect for a while, but sometimes it just won’t connect.

Sure, and also please hot-fix the ranger skills to give one that does insane burst, thanks!

Ostricheggs.3742:

Yasha.5963:

I made a post about this build last week which got moved to the engineer forum (I really do not appreciate that). Anyway, I don’t know if it is OP, certainly a surprise though. Also, it has good ranged power and a pull/kd so you are not just getting netted.

One thing though-some classes have builds with similar survivability, but no chance for such burst. I think that is an issue. My power ranger for example, has similar survivability through evasion, but cannot in any way pull an instant 16K out of its kitten. In spvp, as has been noted many times, the burst really is important. Oh yes, also note that this build can bomb the treb from a wall and destroy it quite quickly from a safe place. If you play against someone who is good at this build, prepare to die.

That’s kinda funny, my condi mesmer has less survivability than my necro and less reliable access to poison as well… On a funnier note I was crit for 9k by an eagle today by a power ranger.

Back on topic, the build is kittenty. Sorry to burst your bubble but it’s quite literally worse than eating a hundred blades. You have to be either metrically kitten or have all of your kitten on cooldown. Furthermore it has less sustained damage and no access to grenades whatsoever before the burst hits making it even more predictable and worthless. If you see a hundred nades engi all he is going to do is try to hundred nades you and spam hip shot. Even when the burst hits it won’t bring many targets down on its own (I’ve been hit by five gauge with 1980 armor, it brought me down to 1/3 HP).

TL;DR just learn to kittening play. You should not be getting hit, it’s too kitten predictable. It’s a bad build and you may as well bring a thief or a warrior cuz they’ll do it better.

God forbid anyone learns what an engineer does like they know how to dodge bulls rush and basilisk venom.

Not sure what you are huffing and puffing about. My original thread merely inquired about the build, because I was surprised to be blown up with no thief, warrior or mesmer around. I never said the build was OP, although I believe it is very strong in the right hands.

BTW I’ve never seen a bird do 9K damage in spvp before, I would like to know what the build is. I’m surprised you got hit by the ranger’s pet though since you are obviously so pro.

I made a post about this build last week which got moved to the engineer forum (I really do not appreciate that). Anyway, I don’t know if it is OP, certainly a surprise though. Also, it has good ranged power and a pull/kd so you are not just getting netted.

One thing though-some classes have builds with similar survivability, but no chance for such burst. I think that is an issue. My power ranger for example, has similar survivability through evasion, but cannot in any way pull an instant 16K out of its kitten. In spvp, as has been noted many times, the burst really is important. Oh yes, also note that this build can bomb the treb from a wall and destroy it quite quickly from a safe place. If you play against someone who is good at this build, prepare to die.

Daemon.4295:

Yasha.5963:

Not as good as the thief sword movement skill (unsurprisingly) but still good once you get used to it. In pvp it is very helpful for getting out of a jam. Trigger it to jump back, turn around and double click your screen to clear target then trigger the skill again to leap far forward (away from enemies). Use lightning reflexes before or after this and you should be setting up a good escape.

:O OMG, I never knew you could double click screen to cancel target. I always press Escape. This will make my life so much easier, thanks Yasha!

NP, I had the same issue for ages, and when you press escape it doesn’t always clear right? And then you spam escape and the options screen comes up, it was a nightmare. Thank god the double clicking works. Sometimes u will accidently click on a character, but it works more times than not, have fun!

Kellnor.5428:

In all honesty, if you’re looking for a 3-button win class, Ranger isn’t for you. However if you’re willing to get over the "I don’t have an obvious “obliterate” button" and get down to really figuring out your class, you can do amazingly well with a Ranger.

I agree, ranger is a one-button class that does not have any “obliterate” button".

Not as good as the thief sword movement skill (unsurprisingly) but still good once you get used to it. In pvp it is very helpful for getting out of a jam. Trigger it to jump back, turn around and double click your screen to clear target then trigger the skill again to leap far forward (away from enemies). Use lightning reflexes before or after this and you should be setting up a good escape.

You could argue though that even melee pets are part of a ranger’s ranged arsenal, which brings them more in line with thief in terms of ranged power, considering some pets also have good cc abilities.

bhagwad.4281:

All of us have different definition of what OP means. Some say the guardian’s ability to hold a point is OP. Others say the Ele’s ability to survive AND deal out damage is OP. Many are of the opinion that thieves shouldn’t be able to stealth so often etc.

One perspective that I feel is useful should be this: No single player should ever be able to survive/beat/run away against two enemies of any classes of comparable skill. For example, I think it’s perfectly acceptable for a guardian to “hold out” a bit longer against two players but eventually they should fall – trade off between damage and defense.

But it’s not ok for two players to take forever fighting a single thief who repeatedly stealths (thereby tying up two resources for the price of one) and has the ability to just run away at the end. It’s not ok for a bunker ele to require two players to take them down and dish out heavy damage/knockbacks etc. at the same time.

Bottom line – given comparable skill levels, two players facing a single player should never have any trouble. For me, this is one of the building blocks of balance. If there is a build that allows a single player to take on two, that build is by definition OP.

Thoughts?

I pretty much agree. You have touched on 2 of the most annoying points in spvp at the moment, the unkillable “perma” stealth thief and the d/d ele.

I would say though that a bunker with good condition removal should be able to counter the theif and hold a point (no use wasting 2 resources on it) and against the ele stability and condition removal is pretty useful.

With the ele its just the incredible mobility, aoe fields/damage, ability of some builds to switch from bunker to semi-burst and the ability to dip out of combat, heal up very quickly and quickly re-engage.

I’ve come up against the stacked ele teams in tourneys, and it always seems like there is 3 enemies on every point, I don’t see necro, ranger, warrior, or engi being on the same level in this respect.

faeral.7120:

seriously, pets are fine. if a ranger is putting his pet on you, he is operating at half strength wherever he is.

just get a ranger buddy to sic his pet on you & practice kiting it, it’s really not hard to neutralize 90% of the dmg.

if you are going to bring a thief into the equation, then you need to have a thief on your side as well, otherwise what are you talking about? these 2v1 scenarios in a vacuum don’t exist.

in this case, the thief on your side either pressures the ranger, gibs the pet, gibs the thief, etc. it’s a team game, even in hotjoins. even without voice coms, you can see where your teammates are on the minimap, & they will ( usually ) help you if you fight near them.

if a pet is on you & you can’t break the leash range, just get a teammate to go pressure the ranger. he will pull the pet back immediately, just like popping a mesmer portal.

This is a good example. The thief will usually one-shot the ranger in this scenario. But go ahead OP and call for nerfs for these OP pets that rarely hit anyone that moves.

Pinder.5261:

Most new players I’ve spoken to feel that 8v8 Hot-Join is the place for newbies. Solo Join tPvP feels inaccessible because of premade teams. 5v5 hot-join just doesn’t have a sufficient population for them to enjoy consistent games. Realistically, both of these areas would be a much better place for new players. Not that a newbie would never meet a burst opponent there, but I guarantee burst would get a lot more thinly spread out. In the meantime, the game play is less chaotic, players have more time to focus on what’s going on in the map, cheeze builds can’t get the same foothold that they do in large scale battles, and putting points into defense is more effective since you’re much less likely to get steamrolled by a player zerg.

Don’t get rid of 8v8. Just reduce its priority. Remove 8v8 from the “Play Now” button. Pressure players to join 5v5 instead. Segregate premades and solo/small group tourneys. This will do a whole lot more for the game than killing burst builds altogether.

TL:DR 2: if devs want to retain new players, then new players need tutorials, and they need to play under more accommodating situations.

Very nice post Pinder-. I agree, in the short term making hotjoin 5vs5 the default mode would help. At the moment tourneys are no place for puggers/newbies, and 8vs8 is very zergy.

The learning curve is always going to be steep because it is level-cap pvp. It is actually a shorter curve than in other mmos however, because if you spend as much time in spvp as you would leveling a toon, you would be a master of spvp for sure.

Neverthless, there is room to make the clearning curve easier. A couple of ideas:

1) Have several default builds for each class. So when a new player starts he can choose from the burst build, bunker build, utlity build etc. Getting stomped quickly with a burst build? Try a bunker build. No need to spend hours researching it, just click on the bunker build template build. Then players can branch out from there.

2) Have more of an ingame tutorial/information about the battlegrounds/maps. Highlight key points like in gw2 you don’t need to have the whole team on the point to cap it, the importance of the treb, etc.

3) Being able to store a few personalized builds would also help everyone. Part of the reason the learning curve is steep is because you cannot quickly change builds and runes etc to test and compare things without totally respeccing and going to the vendors.

Having said all that, I never found the game to be all that difficult, and I enjoy not having to do the pve or gear grind. Maybe it’s mainly the lack of game modes and somewhat extreme burst that is the main thing keeping players away ?

urinfamousr.7631:

Yasha.5963:

Khyras.8021:

Xfusion.2931:

this games balance in amazing for how short it has been up… epsc considering there is so many builds. We need a ladder and stuff will be better and a reason to pvp.

5 mesmers ( and 15 clones) vs 5 warriors who wins? Balance is not amazing in any way, except maybe amazingly bad.Imagine a person who PvPs in wow for example and decides to try PvP in GW2 what is his experience? He sees mage who can turn him to sheep (moa) for 10 sec and he cant trinket it nor does it break on dmg and has mirror images up at all times with no “target nearest player” option, rogue who can vanish as many times as he wants during combat and can spam his high dmg abilities etc. Allowing those unfair and annoying mechanics in pvp is utterly nonsensical, most people that left probably just LOLed then uninstalled the game.One game mode ( boring one) no deserter debuff etc ofc people are going to leave.

Seems like an unfortunate comparison. In the game you compare to I recall DKs deathgripping and oneshotting, thief one-shotting or stunlocking to death, paladin faceroll tanks, priests/healers that were impossible to kill- and more. Until you were able to grind away to get the top gear pvp in that game was far, far more unbalanced than gw2.

I “lol” at the amount of time most other mmos demand that you spend getting crushed by overgeared players until you have grinded enough pvp and pve to at last fight on an even footing.

If you gave gw2 the same chance as you gave those gear-grind games, you would play enough to know that there is a counter build to most things (everything?). Your comment is like someone who enters WoW BGs at level 10-20 and gets repeatedly thrashed by twinks and then writes the whole thing off as stupid (well in wow’s case it might be true).

The difference in gw2 is that you don’t grind for gear, you grind for skill.

this is just so untrue when in 8v8 at some point or another ur gonna get ganked by 2 thiefs doing HS 8x in a row at u and there is only so many times a person can dodge b4 their taking 5k Hs’s from behind. you can have all the skill u want but when ur playing in random pug groups cant communicate well with ur team and being perma rooted/KD/stunned there is no “learning curve” u can evade that one thief ur fighting just to get BS by the one who krept on u from behind invis rooted/basilik u and inn.3 sec ur dead in wut was a “decent” fight…

you can have all the skills u want but when CORE Mechiancs are broken there is nothign u can do but live with… move on or roll the same classes and take advantage of the broken mechanics urself.. which all = no fun

I’m not sure which part of my post you are saying is so untrue. I will guess you mean the part where I say "The difference in gw2 is that you don’t grind for gear, you grind for skill. "

So here is my thoughts on your post. First, two of anyone focusing on you should kill you, if not then something is wrong. The situation you described, apart from the skill names, can happen in any mmo with a stealth class. They are meant to sneak up behind you and finish you when you are low on health.

I am not saying the balance is perfect in this game, but compared to ANY other mmo I have played the pvp is far, far more balanced. If you think this is bad, try getting spawn camped regularly in WoW BGs by twinks. I could do the equivilant of steal-stun-backstab on my rogue in WoW and kill any non-twink in one shot.

To avoid that happening in WoW you have to grind for gear-in fact you need to get one toon to 80, buy heirlooms, very expensive enchants etc, and then you are ready to compete on an (un)even keel.

In gw2 if you want to avoid the one-shot wonders, you just need to have the right build. And yes, with experience you can even see/aniticipate the thief/warrior/mesmer/engineer etc burst. Every game you play, every time you get owned you learn something, you build skill. You don’t need to gear up, you need to skill up. Its completely different and thats why I love it.

Also I got to tell ya- I mainly play ranger, oft seen as the worst and lowliest class in gw2, veritable thief fodder right? Well guess what, if I want to build to counter thieves I can. Two simple heartseeker spamming thieves are unlikely to beat me if I want to go that route with my build. However, if they use skill and coordination, they should be able to take down any one player.

GW2= skill not gear ftw

Ursan.7846:

Yasha.5963:

The question was “why does thief ranged kick our ranged?”

The simple answer is because it hits for more, hits more reliably, against a ranger will often double hit due to pet, has a devastating aoe attack, an amazing aoe debuff/field, a teleport that works even if immobilized, and a spammable cripple and evade.

I think you missed out on my entire point. The answer isn’t simple, because there’s certain situations in which Ranger Shortbow will be superior to Thief Shortbow. (Dungeon bosses, anyone?).

Which is okay. Thief Shortbow wasn’t designed for single-target damage. It’s designed for aoe/utility in mind. So it does those things better than the Ranger SB.

But then Ranger Shortbow does more damage against a single target. Period. So then you’ll have many situations in the game where you’re fighting one monster, in which the Ranger Shortbow is superior to the Thief Shortbow. The answer isn’t so simple anymore, no?

Like I said I’m only talking about pvp, and someone at the start of the thread already ran a test which proved thief sb dealt more single target damage unless ranger is flanking and target does not remove conditions.

Yasha.5963:

Well first, I am only talking pvp, don’t know about pve. .

Ursan.7846:

Didn’t realize this was a PvP only post. I’m pretty sure it isn’t. I’d however argue that Ranger Shortbow is far superior in 1v1 fights than Thief Shortbow, but we’ll be doing lots of theorycrafting at that point and it will be pointless.

My point is only about pvp as I said, because I don’t do enough pve to have an opinion. I gave some soild arguments as to why a thief sb is far superior to ranger, you merely stated an empty opinion. I also laid out the primary uses for ranged in pvp and detailed how thief sb is better. It is not theorycrafting, it is knowledge distilled from thousands of spvp games of experience.

However, whether thief sb or ranger sb is better matters little. They both do just fine. What matters more is that in non-hotjoin spvp a ranger has no role that cannot be filled better by other classes. Perhaps comparatively lackluster ranger weapon skills are part of that problem.

Ursan.7846:

Yasha.5963:

I know not about pve- in spvp thief SB does more direct damage, hits more reliably and can spam a powerful aoe blast. I can reliably do 9-12K-plus damage in spvp spamming SB 2 three times on a thief. That is a aoe but is is also more powerful single target damage than ranger SB. Even the auto attack hits like a truck and if there are only 2 targets one of them gets hit twice-ouch.

The only way you’re “spamming” SB 2 three times in rapid succession is if you’re practically in melee range with your opponent, because you can’t cast #2 until it hits. If you’re in any range, it will have quite a significant flight time, in which time your opponent has plenty of time to move out.

If you’re in melee range, why are you using a Shortbow in the first place? Heck why are you wasting your initiative on Shortbow #2, and not on better things? (Heartseeker, CnD)?

Also even in PvP, in a 1v1 I will take a Ranger with a Shortbow over a Thief with a Shortbow aaaaaaaaaanyday of the week. Don’t forget, Crossfire has twice the firing rate as Thief #1 has.

The question was “why does thief ranged kick our ranged?”

The simple answer is because it hits for more, hits more reliably, against a ranger will often double hit due to pet, has a devistating aoe attack, an amazing aoe debuff/field, a teleport that works even if immobilized, and a spammable cripple and evade.

The ranger sb has a daze/stun on a long cd, that is its only advantage.

Your claim that the ranger sb 2x faster is unfounded. It is faster but not 2x faster.

Think of times you use ranged- kiting and bombing a point are two prime examples. With teleport and a cripple+evade (which is usable a few times in a row) thief sb beats ranger sb at kiting. With the hard hitting auto attack that also hits 3 people, and far more powerful aoe, the thief sb again is better than ranger sb.

Regarding your boast “even in PvP, in a 1v1 I will take a Ranger with a Shortbow over a Thief with a Shortbow aaaaaaaaaanyday of the week”.

Well first, I am only talking pvp, don’t know about pve.

Second in this imaginary 1vs1 situation between a power ranger and power thief the thief will just stealth-mug- C&D-backstab and kill you in one shot. Doesn’t have to be in melee range.

The thief sb is better for what ranged is used for, the ranger has comparatively subpar choices for both ranged and melee.

Oh and about the clusterbomb spam- yes you have to wait a little-but what is the cd on the ranger LB aoe again? And while I’m waiting there is time for 2 auto attacks hitting up to 3 people for 1000+ damage each before the next 3-5K aoe rains hell down on them again.

faeral.7120:

in pvp you are usually comparing a glass power thief to a condi trap ranger.

of course the thief will do more power dmg, it’s what he’s specced for. it’s like complaining that a power thief’s bleeds can’t compare with traps.

if you want to test actual ranged power numbers, run 20/25/20/0/5 with berserkers & QZ. you say thief can do 12k with 3 shortbow attacks, ranger can do 12k with 1 longbow attack that tracks stealth & pierces targets. full power barrage is 1.2k crits on light armor ( ranger equiv of a power well ). and shortbow isn’t as bursty but very high pressure in a power spec.

while line aoe isn’t quite as strong as true aoe, it is still quite strong in teamfights & against bodyblock classes ( thieves guild, mesmer, ranger, necro ).

icing on the cake is that yes, pets are ranged dps. if you really want to compare ranged power dmg, ranger can win easily. but thief has stronger utility.

No I am comparing glass canon to glass canon. QZ is a CD, thief doesn’t need to blow a CD or use a special class mechanic (traited BM) to do good damage from range. In fact, if my thief is pure class canon he will do more than the 9-12k damage I mentioned, and have much, much more survivability than a glass canon ranger. Note that thief also has a quickness CD and that rapid fire burst is pretty easy to avoid and has a CD. Also note that shortbow 1 with QZ does just as much or more damage than long-bow. Indeed lb is probably the worst ranger weapon imo.

Kasama.8941:

I think the pet is the reason why. When other professions get stunned, they are locked down completely, when the Ranger gets stunned, the pet is still free to move around and deal damage.

The brown bear and Spirit of Nature can also remove stun, if you use their active skills just before being stunned. Healing Spring removes a condition at each pulse, so it works as stun removal when you’re standing in it.

Slightly off here Kasama; the bear, spirit, and healing spring remove conditions-such as immobilize. Stun is not a condition, you need an ability that specifically breaks stun to become “unstunned”.

But I see your logic about the pet being able to attack while ranger is stunned or immobilized as a possible reason for why rangers are lacking in that department.

faeral.7120:

to make hotjoin more friendly:

1. servers only last for a single match then spit players to the mists.
2. implement a “leaver” system which will place players who leave matches early into a separate queue.
3. allow 2 people to queue together but no more, & put them on the same team.
4. let players queue for whichever map they want.

these forced rotation servers are garbage & are a big reason for afk rates & autobalancing woes, which in turn is another big reason for loss of player retention. the devs would also gain valuable information about which maps are being played the most & which professions are being played on which maps.

more than anything, players want to feel in control of their gaming experience, & atm they have no control. so they go back to pve or wvw, where they can have that type of experience.

In my opinion these suggestions are crazy. I absolutely love the continued rounds of games we have at the moment. I have no idea why you would even suggest changing that, nothing in your post explains your reasoning. This is the only game I have played that has 24/7 on demand pvp, it is a fantastic innovation. People afk and leave more in the BGs of other mmos I’ve played.

Note you can queue with friends, just swap to the team you want in the team browser screen. You can also queue for the map you want, just leave and join a server running the map you desire.

You say “these forced rotation servers are garbage & are a big reason for afk rates & autobalancing woes, which in turn is another big reason for loss of player retention” but give no reasoning, just spout an unfounded opinion.

None of these things you speak of are even issues, or relevant to how to make the game more newcomer friendly.

Khyras.8021:

Xfusion.2931:

this games balance in amazing for how short it has been up… epsc considering there is so many builds. We need a ladder and stuff will be better and a reason to pvp.

5 mesmers ( and 15 clones) vs 5 warriors who wins? Balance is not amazing in any way, except maybe amazingly bad.Imagine a person who PvPs in wow for example and decides to try PvP in GW2 what is his experience? He sees mage who can turn him to sheep (moa) for 10 sec and he cant trinket it nor does it break on dmg and has mirror images up at all times with no “target nearest player” option, rogue who can vanish as many times as he wants during combat and can spam his high dmg abilities etc. Allowing those unfair and annoying mechanics in pvp is utterly nonsensical, most people that left probably just LOLed then uninstalled the game.One game mode ( boring one) no deserter debuff etc ofc people are going to leave.

Seems like an unfortunate comparison. In the game you compare to I recall DKs deathgripping and oneshotting, thief one-shotting or stunlocking to death, paladin faceroll tanks, priests/healers that were impossible to kill- and more. Until you were able to grind away to get the top gear pvp in that game was far, far more unbalanced than gw2.

I “lol” at the amount of time most other mmos demand that you spend getting crushed by overgeared players until you have grinded enough pvp and pve to at last fight on an even footing.

If you gave gw2 the same chance as you gave those gear-grind games, you would play enough to know that there is a counter build to most things (everything?). Your comment is like someone who enters WoW BGs at level 10-20 and gets repeatedly thrashed by twinks and then writes the whole thing off as stupid (well in wow’s case it might be true).

The difference in gw2 is that you don’t grind for gear, you grind for skill.

LR is still good with sword, at least in pvp. It really helps with those emergency getaways. Ranger condition removal is also pretty bad, btw.

The only place you are gonna see ranger love love posts is on the ranger forum, keep patting yourself on the back and saying its all good.

Ursan.7846:

Yasha.5963:

I think you just proved that thief SB kicks R-SB butt. Remember that according to your calculations the thief SB would take 40.9sec kill to three heavy golems at once….

Ursan.7846:

Er. How do you define “kick our ranged”?

Ranger Shortbow does more single-target dps than Thief Shortbow, and can daze. (Without pets)

Thief shortbow does more AoE damage than Ranger Shortbow (and has to be in pretty close range if you want to “spam” #2), and has infiltrator arrow.

So if your definition of “kick butt” is “does more AoE” damage, certainly…

But in many cases where there’s only a single target (i.e. dungeon bosses) any Ranger who’s not lazy and positions him/herself correctly will far out damage a Thief with a shortbow. And this is assuming without a pet. For all of this subforum’s consternation about dead pets in dungeons, it’s still alive for a good chunk of time.

I know not about pve- in spvp thief SB does more direct damage, hits more reliably and can spam a powerful aoe blast. I can reliably do 9-12K-plus damage in spvp spamming SB 2 three times on a thief. That is a aoe but is is also more powerful single target damage than ranger SB. Even the auto attack hits like a truck and if there are only 2 targets one of them gets hit twice-ouch.

Dear moderators, could you please move this back to the spvp forum? I started this for all the players in spvp, including myself, who wanted to know more about this very spvp specific engineer build.

It is not a general engineer topic and has nothing to do with pve or wvw, it is specifically about a very powerful spvp build and how to counter it. Thank you.

One more thing I have to say about this SB comparision. The thief has amazing synergy with SB and a secondary weapon. A couple of SB1 and 2 to soften you up then change weapons, teleport to instantly close the gap, mug traited for stealth, backstab, and HS. A huge burst combo executed almost instantly from range.

Ranger’s weapons on the other hand tend to synergize more with their pet.

SwickHobo.5096:

nerva.7940:

ranger SB is way better due to the massive utility it gives you (cripple, evade, stun). in duels anyway.

Sadly that’s not true at all.

Ranger Shortbow:
1: Great single target DPS if attacking from behind
2: A Weak poison attack that can stack a fair duration of poison
3: A Evade with a built in cripple and swiftness for some decent mobility
4: A Bleed/Cripple
5: A Nice interrupt

Thief Shortbow:
1: Average single target DPS or Higher DPS if 2+ targets are present
2: A Spammable Blast finisher with high dmg and bleeds with low trajectory
3: A evade with a built in cripple
4: A poison combo field that can stack poison forever in PvE
5: Best single mobility skill in the game (arguably)

So they both have a situational auto attack that are good in different circumstances

They both have a good way to stack a lot of poison, while the thief gets a combo field while doing so

They both have an evade/cripple attack

They both have a utility skill that provides bleeds, thieves has more bleeds or a blast finisher, while the ranger gets a cripple, which they already have access too

Thieves have superior mobility, rangers get an interrupt we’ll call this one a rub.

If you compare the two directly the thief SB wins out in almost every way.

I agree with your conclusion but note that Ranger’s SB evade does not have cripple and the thief bow skills can be spammed (no CD).

Chaith.8256:

@OP, Yasha, that was me who you were facing in hotjoins yesterday afternoon, if you’re interested in finding more about that build, I just posted a guide yesterday.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Five-Gauge-s-100nade-Guide/first#post1272424

Thanks, it was awesome playing against you the other day. The first few times I got exploded I couldn’t figure out what had happened. I also loved how you could sit on the wall near treb out of danger and bomb it to death really quickly.

Give ranger a massive burst skill or plethora of disables etc like some of the other classes have and then think about nerfing UW pet heal.

If you can drop the LB for a shortbow and shortsword you can have a devistating and fairly hard to kill power ranger that kites and uses pet for support/cc (it will also do pretty good damage).

nerva.7940:

ranger SB is way better due to the massive utility it gives you (cripple, evade, stun). in duels anyway.

The thief SB has no spamable cripple and evade anymore? Was there a stealth nerf? Did it also lose its utility to teleport, effectively saving you from any immobolize?