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Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

It is minority now, seeing as how the last batch of thief nerfs combined with the news of the next batch of thief nerfs sparked a movement within the thief community. With the lack of thieves playing thieves, the only people who complain about thieves nowadays are the ones with personal vendettas against the profession (which they are partially to blame for their hatred). The facts are: This profession is in a bad place and is heading in a bad direction. If anet continues down that path, they might as well delete the profession altogether.

They already responded to stealthing multiple times. However, their data is based on paper and not firsthand experience which they have clearly shown they lack. So regardless if they think they knows whats best for the game fact is that w/e it is its misguided.

Now the thief is not so desirable in PvE, very limited in capabilities in WvW and practically useless in PvP. The only people who would touch this class are the inexperienced and diehards.

And stealthers are hated in other games because the physical disappearance of a character requires a different form of skill from reading telegraphs. What kitten es people off the most is when there are no direct counters even though the counters to the stealth mechanic are present albeit requiring some effort.

I seriously don’t know what makes you think everything you believe is right.

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

State of Thieves

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

I would rather do better on a different profession without putting any effort into it.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Actually you can counter that by getting close to their shadow return spots.

v If they made the return spot visible that would definitely help.

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Don’t you mean “loud minority”? There are hundreds of them in this game. If you havn’t noticed, more people think of thieves as a joke rather than a threat.


I would like to add as an example:

Jagex revamped Runescape’s combat which cause over 50k players to end their subscription. Those 50k players did their best to ruin Jagex’s reputation by spamming youtube and several other sites in protest of the update. Even after 6 months of abuse by these players, Jagex is still standing with an extra game (07scape), a charity going on as well as bonds which players are eating up right now.

The community is now overall a better place because the loud and obnoxious minority (runescape’s PvP community) left.


In this case its quite the opposite since it seems anet is catering to the loud minority. Now you might think it’s just about permastealth which isn’t the problem in and of itself, but really its just general hatred for the profession and any buff will be met with backlash. In the end, thief players will just leave the profession and every new thief player will eventually find out how bad the profession is as a whole because the people who have complained this profession to death finally got what they wanted.

And as a price, this game now has 7.5 professions total.

That’s business for ya.

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Doesn’t change the fact that people hate it.

And that doesn’t change the fact that some of that hatred is due to a failure to learn on their part.

There are multiple threads and vids showing you how to handle thieves who use stealth and the ever popular “play the class to learn how it works” suggestion which ultimately works with EVERY profession.

Thieves handed everyone the tools just so people would stop crying so you can’t really justify breaking a profession just because people hate something they can handle.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Most of the players aren’t complaining about the profession anymore. Thieves melt so easily in this meta that the only ones who use them are diehards.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Permastealthed thieves won’t do anything to you. Otherwise, they are not permastealthed.

I still don’t get what you are trying to say.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

It actually is a player-side problem.

Before a thief could stack up over a minute of stealth (which was corrected) and thieves could chain stealth right after they attacked (which was countered with revealed).

Since then, a thief in stealth can’t do anything in it besides reapply stealth lest they get it removed. Thieves can’t also stay in stealth more than 16 seconds before having to reapply it. The most anyone has ever seen nowadays was a little over 5 minutes of straight stealth and it requires a build that absolutely cannot work in combat. So there really isn’t a major problem here.

The main problem people have with thieves comes from a single attack that can easily hit 5-digits (something that anet intended for the profession) and permastealth does not affect it in the slightest due to the revealed mechanic. You stealth, do a stealth attack, wait a few seconds, repeat.

I don’t see what you are trying to get at.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Perma stealth for example is not a player side problem. ANET admitted that permastealth is an unintended abuse of mechanics. look up the notes. they’ve stated so.

Fighting against stealth is player-side. They can’t fix that without removing stealth completely.

New weapon skill for the P/P thief

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

I want sword in off hand

Everyone says this, but I don’t understand why – dual wielding swords isn’t Thiefy at all. A viable Offhand light option would actually make more sense, as would MH mace and/or axe, two hand quarterstaff, or any number of other options.

I would like to see MH sword be wielded like a 2H when there is no offhand.

New weapon skill for the P/P thief

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Sounds like they should just give us a rifle w/ 1200 range and work it into a power build based.

nvm siggy is hidden for some reason.

EDIT: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Rifles-4-thieves-pls/first :D

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

well eliminating some blatantly exploitable elements should allow anet to fix other problems such as our ranged deficit, etc. however, they cannot do those things when more players see thieves as op’d in wvw.

They don’t have to fix player-side problems before working on legitimate game problems. In fact, they could easily negate any form of complaints by saying “we are not going to do this” so long as they choose to do so.

[Merged] Think "Mounts" outside the box!

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

The complaints fall more along the lines of game optimization.

[Merged] Think "Mounts" outside the box!

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

What in blue blazes makes you think arenanet is going to change the whole game just so arenanet could make mounts for a minority.

I`m curious of what exactly would have to change if mounts were added.

I am sure if you actually read every post ever made that disagreed with you, you’de find out. However, don’t expect me to list them for you.

[Merged] Think "Mounts" outside the box!

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

If players wanted mounts in the first place, players would have bought the broom and drill enough to show that those things are desirable. In turn, arenanet would make more to sell like the infinite tools.

However, that never happened.

Now even though this horse has been beaten way more than the thieves horse and the same arguments have been thrown around for possibly (and literally) the 1000th time I have a question to ask:

What in blue blazes makes you think arenanet is going to change the whole game just so arenanet could make mounts for a minority.

What should I do with Quip now?

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

You should delete quip because its an ugly weapon.

Toxic Mantle, can you dye all the green away?

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

I wish you could. It would make the mantle more desirable I think.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

They won’t. My target audience never listens to me.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

I would also like to give my overall opinion on the traitlines:

Deadly Arts Traitline:
Good for stats Mug and Venomshare. Everything else is situational or underwhelming.

Critical Strikes Traitline:
Necessary if the thief plans to deal any damage. Most of the traits are in a good place, however some of them and some of the things these traits associate with need a buff before this traitline becomes something other than the source of damage dependence.

Shadow Arts Traitline:
Amazing for stealth users, pointless for everyone else. Less dependence on stealth will make this line and the profession more balanced (or at least give it the potential to be less broken).

Acrobatics:
Like Critical Strikes except it needs more work. Hard to Catch is the worst of them. If anything this line should concentrate more on condition removal since acrobatics requires a healthy, in-shape person to perform feats of agility. It just makes sense.

Trickery:
Probably the most balanced traitline thieves have. However, I would recommend that Condition Damage gets switched out for Condition Duration in Deadly Arts to make this line more versatile and ultimately open up new builds.

If you want a firsthand perspective you can try these out for yourself.

The profession has the ability to do some really potent stuff but most of it is situational and requires a setup that traits and gears heavily into those aspects. Not only that, setup isn’t completely reliant on the build either. So assuming the thief is balanced or overpowered and basing your changes off of these assumptions will ultimately kill the thief.

TL;DR The problem is not initiative regen, its everything else. If you really want to open up builds for the thief you should look at why we aren’t going with anything else rather than focusing on what we do use.

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Quick Venoms:
Like Venomous Strength, this is only good if you are using venoms or venomshare. Since venoms are overall too weak to use without using venomshare, this trait is overall situational (useless).

Dagger Training:
5% increase in damage is barely noticeable on it’s own but if a build relies on damage then using this would be a better choice to use than most of whats available on this line.

Combined Training:
Like dagger training, its barely noticable on its own especially since every dual attack a thief has deals less damage than the auto. Until there is a damage increase to dual skills, using this would be pointless. Besides, there are very few builds thieves have that utilize dual skills regularly so even if they were boosted nobody would take this trait unless there was nothing else.

Panic Strike:
IMO this could work with pistol MH or SB, however a few seconds of immobilize on a 30s CD is not that great especially when it can be cleansed easily.

Residual Venoms:
Useless unless using venoms or venomshare.

Concealed Defeat:
It would be better if it was a circle instead of a line or a line that was placed inbetween you and your opponent. However, since it pops right on top of you it does nothing because your enemy can still hit you from outside of the screen.

Pistol Mastery:
Great for p/p but does not bring pistol MH auto up to SB level. :I Pistol auto is probably the weakest auto thieves have.

Practiced Tolerance:
Great if you have nothing else to slot. However, the thief will have to gear for high precision if they were to make any use of it. Doesn’t help GCs very much since thief healing is poor as it is.

Ankle Shots:
Good of p/p if you plan on chasing. Otherwise, its lackluster for d/p and p/d.

Signet Use:
Unless you are using signet builds or you are using it in conjunction with Hastened Replenishment and Signet of Malice there is no point. Not only that, it takes 50 points to do the latter and that only works well for condition builds which thieves are not THAT great at being. But since you are going to nerf the initiative gain on it which was one of the two highlight of signet builds, I think this would get slotted less. Signets by themselves are too weak by themselves, however Signets of Power and Signet Use overrides their weaknesses and turns them into a source of initiative and might. Most of them are already on a short cooldown as it is so the 20% CD reduction doesn’t affect much. It is the initiative gain we want more of and the 20% CD only lets us gain that initiative faster.

Combo Critical Chance:
Like dagger training, except for builds that rely on damage would need more crit chance. It is also good for x/p if you plan on using dual skills to proc on-crit effects however there are still better things you can use.

Critical Haste:
2s of haste only gives me a whole auto attack worth of speed. It is better for p/x and SB than everything else, however I would only use it if nothing better was available.

Hidden Killer:
Not all thieves use stealth. Those that use it all of the time will want to slot this over Executioner because it frees up precision points for more survivability. However, this trait would be better suited in Shadow Arts because having 100% crit rate while in stealth makes precision pointless to have. That is why you’ll find more thieves slotting executioner than HK.

Slowed Pulse:
Regen is great, however bleeds are easily stacked and 3+ of bleeding will completely negate the regen.

Power Shots:
In a traitline where most of the traits are viable, something that barely increases the damage on a weapon that’s already kinda weak to begin with is not worth it. However this is fine for SB builds seeing as how its the only one for it. :I

Leeching Venoms:
Same as every other venom trait.

Patience:
Not that much of a boost. In fact, to get the full effect you have to remain in stealth till the very end otherwise there are better things to slot.

Venomous Aura:
See leeching venoms. Also should be in Deadly Arts (my opinion) because it has ALMOST ZERO SYNERGY with this traitline.

Assassin’s Retreat:
This is great if you like hit-and-runs. However I will never use it. (does anyone even use these kinds of traits anyways?)

Assassin’s Reward:
This trait’s healing capability is so insignificant that its almost on par with Hard To Catch. Even the small buff that’s planned for it isn’t enough to make me want to use it.

Hard To Catch:
Why should I slot this? Its random movements combined with the fact *that I am still CCed screws me over. You could put the CD to 0 and make it an adept trait… nobody will use it. At least, Last refuge can be managed and that one also can screw over thieves.

(still not done)

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

NOFUN4U

Fine have it your way.

On topic:
Jon I don’t think that the dev team understands the state thieves are in. You are not going to make thief player’s rely less on initiative regen traits when they only reason they go for them is because everything else sucks. I will go down the list of traits and explain why thieves currently do not take them and I would like you to look them over.

Back Fighting:
The only time this would help is if you are downed when another enemy is downed. Otherwise, it isn’t as useful as other traits because fighting in the downed state is almost completely pointless without others around you. Then again, even if you were downed you’de have a less likely chance of being revived before a more useful profession (I know this from experience while doing some orr bosses).

Corrosive Traps/Master Trapper:
All traps except for Shadow Trap are weak both utility wise and damage wise. Because there are better things to slot, using either one of these waste of a trait slot unless there really is nothing else you can use.

Venomous Strength:
Unless you are running venomshare, there is no point to use this. Signets with Signets of Power provide a better bonus.

Potent Poison:
Poison is good for reducing healing capabilities but is almost not worth concentrating on beyond that. Not only that, most professions carry a fair amount of condition cleanse with them so the poison will eventually be cleansed. Besides, bleeding does way more damage than poison and a thief can stack bleeds much faster. Since this is a numbers game bleeds > poison.

Sundering Strikes:
Does not activate often enough to make a noticeable difference in damage.

Improvisation:
This is good when using multiple utility types but other than that it’s a gamble and mostly used when there is nothing else better to equip. If you got rid of signets from the list it would boost the probability of everything else coming off CD by 5% and it wouldn’t be a waste since most signets are already on a short cooldown anyways.

(to be continued due to 15 minute flood control >.<)

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Think we need to tone down the melodrama. certain elements were badly op’d. For the health of the game, Anet is fixing them. Thieves are fine now and will continue to be fine. Relax.

Well I disagree with you. Thieves are in a bad place.

Everyone disagrees with Sanduskel.

We should probably stop responding to anything he says in the thief boards at all, since he isn’t open to discussion. He only wishes to express his opinion which he considers infallible. His opinion has been acknowledged as extremely off base by nearly every single experienced thief who still frequents the boards (it might be literally every single one, I just don’t know for sure), so let’s just just all agree to skip his posts.

I disagree with your suggestion. Perma-enabling this OP behavior will only break the forums. ;D

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Think we need to tone down the melodrama. certain elements were badly op’d. For the health of the game, Anet is fixing them. Thieves are fine now and will continue to be fine. Relax.

Well I disagree with you. Thieves are in a bad place.

I'm done playing thief. How about you?

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People will hate us. We just wont be doing anything beyond bankstanding in LA.

Make a Stink

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Certainly people will, but as time goes on they will come to realize that thieves are not going to offer any satisfaction so long as the profession remains useless.

Farewell my D/D theif after Dec 10th!

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Zacchary.6183

Tyler thieves don’t mean to offend, we are just extremely tired of being blindsided by horribads and almost guaranteed nerfs to this profession. What you are experiencing is our sigh of relief because we hoped for months now that a dev would get on here to talk about the state of the thief.

Inside we are actually giddy that we got 2 red posts in one week and we hope to get more (as well as some positive changes).

Remember the days when...

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Remember that time when you enjoyed playing on a thief? I don’t.

Tnx Arena Net for killing my lovely thief

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Zacchary.6183

I tried everything down to the most useless traits. Verdict is: This profession sucks.

Venom Revamp Idea

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Bump for non boring crappy venoms! :D

Tnx Arena Net for killing my lovely thief

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Zacchary.6183

you should have uploaded your character with the /cry emote

That’s what I expected, then clicked on picture and was disappoint.

They fixed Sylvari /cry animation as some point, don’t remember seeing it in any patch notes, but I’m making good use of it.

s/d evasion spec is op as hell. You had to see a proper nerf coming in one way or another.

OP as in being ultra squishy and die in one hit between dodges and being 100% vulnerable to conditions, no range capabilities (in spvp) and no stealth. The build has it’s strong points yet tons of weaknesses.

My Warrior can solo tank 6 people totally impervious to both crit and condition damage and dish out both forms of damage at very high numbers. 0 weaknesses. That is how you really define "OP. ";/ People need to get over their personal hatred of Thieves and look at things more rationally.

Seriously. I feel like 90% of people saying that stuff are different classes invading our forum.

It happens all of the time. They are like the seperatists of the forums.

Devs: Thinking In the Box

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Zacchary.6183

what is s/p ?

Message Body length must at least be 15.

stick/popgun

Good leveling build?

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Dec 10th thief changes

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Zacchary.6183

As a Thief main,

Can you give me some depth behind the Infiltrator’s Strike change? Especially why have you decided to add more cast time to Infiltrator’s Return instead of disabling the skill when the thief is stunned/dazed/immobilized?

In my opinion adding more cast time just makes the whole mechanic more clunky and still allows Thieves to get out of sticky situations they shouldn’t be able to.

If a Thief is stunned, unless he uses a stunbreaker, he should remain as such. Infiltrator’s Return bypassing CC is clearly broken and counter intuitive in my opinion.
If a Thief is stunned or dazed he shouldn’t be able to use Infiltrator’s Return. You need to add some punishment if a Sword Thief is caught without a stunbreaker up. You need to create some separators between average thieves and GREAT thieves. *

A GREAT Thief would use Infiltrator’s Return before the stun arrives, that’s good reward. An average Thief wouldn’t have the timing to avoid the stun and therefor would be punished.

Skill vs Reward/Punishment is something we need

Infiltrator’s Return can’t be the “OH SHIET” button. That’s not very balanced for competitive play.
Introducing this fix, would you go as far as not going foward with this cast time increase and maybe reducing initiative cost? What are your thoughts on this?

So you want the thief to stand there and die while CCed? Okay.

Make a Stink

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Zacchary.6183

I will continue to disagree that removing perma stealth will hurt this class. It was an abuse of a mechanic as stated in the explanation from Mr Peters. Get some perspective for the health of the entire game, not just our class.

First off its my class, not your’s. You havn’t shown me you know enough about this profession yet.

Secondly, I am thinking about the game. Having a class nobody uses more than 5% of the game with is considered a massive waste of programming. If they can’t make this profession enjoyable again they might as well delete it because nobody is going to play a profession that requires more way effort for the same reward.

Make a Stink

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Zacchary.6183

I’m gonna be so happy when they finally nerf your perma stealth OP class.

Feel free to celebrate right now. The crying minority has effectively killed the profession and can now have their free kills handed to them by said profession.

I really hope this was what you wanted.

Of course it was. They never cared for balance. They just wanted to win. If winning meant classes that weren’t their own got nerfed in to uselessness, fine by them.

Don’t bother with a guilt trip. This is EXACTLY what they wanted.

Next on the guillotine is the warrior. We’ll see how that kitten turns out. lol :D

S/X build advice for crappy thief:D

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Roll a warrior.

Why do you like being a Thief?

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Zacchary.6183

The only thing I like about the thief is how you have to pay attention to your initiative rather than waiting for cooldowns to finish. It forces you to put more commitment towards combat.

Tnx Arena Net for killing my lovely thief

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What made it fun? That you owned every other class in 1 vs baddie?

fixed*

Make a Stink

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Zacchary.6183

I’m gonna be so happy when they finally nerf your perma stealth OP class.

Feel free to celebrate right now. The crying minority has effectively killed the profession and can now have their free kills handed to them by said profession.

I really hope this was what you wanted.

Good luck Anet

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Zacchary.6183

Stop whining and learn to adopt to new changes. IS is op and encourages brainless gamestyle.

Like skill rotations? Okay.

Dec 10th thief changes

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Jon,

A big problem with thief is not that some traits are in the wrong place or that some traits take away from the use of others but most of our traits and utilities are either very situational, require all associated traits for utilities to be viable or are flat out detrimental/useless. Players have left the class entirely because the profession can’t do anything well except blink in and out of stealth because risk:reward and effort:reward are so heavy to the left that it is not worth it.

I can list a number of topics addressing the thief’s problems with player’s ideas. However, you need to understand that this profession needs a serious buff in about 60% of its traits, utilities and weapon skills before the profession recovers.

It is useless and not fun to play.

Farewell my D/D theif after Dec 10th!

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Zacchary.6183

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this thread could have been avoided if the developers actually played the thief. :3

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

I finally figured out my new main!

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Zacchary.6183

I rolled warrior and leveled it up fairly quickly in PvE by killing kitten 7 levels above me. I actually think its more fun than guard because as of now my guard has very powerful healing capabilities making it impossible to die. To top it all off, its slow as kitten.

I like warrior because you can get the same healing capability while still providing kittenloads of damage and support. I am waiting to see how thief and warrior play out in the next batch of patches and get a feel for their progression before I jump back into PvP.

Time to Adapt: Making New Builds

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I would troll this thread with a link to a crappy warrior build but doing so would make me feel like an kitten . OP is trying harder than most of us.

I finally figured out my new main!

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Zacchary.6183

Don’t worry. There are plenty of tears to be had on the thief forums. Its just that warrior forums are about to be a good supply of tears too.

:D

What build after the Nerf Bat ?

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Fist – Fist/Forehead 30/30/30/30/30

Farewell my D/D theif after Dec 10th!

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Zacchary.6183

Dodging and stealth are a thief’s only form of survivability. So much as breathing on it will produce MASSSSSSSSSSSIVE changes.

Make a Stink

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Zacchary.6183

^ Not when those possibilities all suck.

I finally figured out my new main!

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Zacchary.6183

To continue upon my previous thread I chose………

Warrior. :I

It’s the most fun class evar… TIME TO SLAY SOME ****!!

Attachments:

Thief Introduction

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Zacchary.6183

AT LEAST WE HAVE BACKSTAB AMIRITE?