Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

alanis.6094:

jportell.2197:

skcamow.3527:

jportell.2197:

Levetty.1279:

As I constantly point out, anytime somebody tries to start a conversation about the weaknesses of the Mesmer class and the poor way in which the balance team have handled the class somebody always comes in to tell us stories about how they can take on entire enemy zergs or 1v1 thiefs with no traits.

Very tiring.

This right here, people keep saying how they have these amazing builds that are gonna be the meta, completely ignoring why mesmers are taken in the first place. People completely ignore that the only viable build mesmers have, is hard countered by well any thief build. They then point out how they have an amazing build that completely wrecks thieves. Well what does it do besides that? Does it match necros/engis condi pressure? Does it have the sustain of any of the other classes? How is it mobility wise? Does it even have portal? What about boon removal?

Then it’s clear that this amazing gonna be meta build is good for one thing, countering thieves, and nothing else.

Would absolutely love hearing about a build with zero traits that works vs thieves and takes on entire zergs.

And would also love to hear about amazing builds claiming to be the next meta! The only builds I’ve seen talked about in this thread are those that perform pretty decent vs thieves. And those same builds weren’t touted to be the end all build for every situation.

The message is to simply adapt when you see a potential hard counter on the other team. When I see a thief, I’ll play one of those effective aforementioned builds and I’ll generally perform rather well. Conversely, if I see an engineer I’ll likely go shatter because the power damage is better vs the turret spam.

In the end you play to win after all. Adapting is the way to play to win.

Yes but the problem is every build that is built to hard counter thieves, and by hard counter I mean survive just enough of their burst to hope you get them down, sucks against any other build/class. Take the condi builds for instance, sure they are gonna wreck thieves. What about the other classes in the meta? How are you going to try and condi down a d/d cele ele with the absolute highest uptime on condi clear in the game. Or a shoutbow that comes in a close second? What about engineers that run a cele build that says “condis? Oh here have some nades.”

I can understand the want to build just so you can deal with thieves, but you lose all your effectiveness against any other class/build that is used.

MtD builds absolutely wreck Engi and Warrior meta builds in 1v1 situations (and 2v2s that don’t include double AoE cleaning professions), and do actually overwhelm D/D as well (though the latter takes a little longer).

Lockdown builds are able to fare very well vs the above professions as well; though they wouldn’t be able to hold/contest a point like MtD; though they do better in larger fights.

MTD still doesn’t do well against a good shoutbow that manages their cooldowns. And really all they have to do is stand still and use their warhorn/shouts.

The big problem with mesmer condition builds is they rely on stupid opponents (ones that run around spamming skills.)

Last I recall, Nightmare is still running shoutbow, and I’ve been able to overwhelm and kill him solo more often than not; though admittedly its more common that his teammate arrives to +1 me. Granted though, his team is usually rolling our soloQ hero’s.

MtD can put out enough “standard” condi spam that CI can’t merely be held for a torment burst (sc2 or a shatter) — at least in my opinion and from my experience, and while I’m not at an elite level of play, I occasionally get matched up with/against these guys.

Selya.5039:

Here then, is where the problem starts. As mesmers start getting better and better at the game, they eventually reach the point where shatter does become the only viable build – if they run anything else they become a burden to their team. So, saying that “the meta doesn’t matter for most people, just play what you like” is akin to saying “Mesmers don’t have problems so long as you are content with your skill level and MMR stagnating, and if you don’t even intend to join a team”, which really doesn’t sound like an appealing solution to me.

I’ll just have to agree to disagree. I think the more likely outcome is that the hypothetical player does get better and better and better — but still doesn’t reach (or often come close) to reaching the elite tier/“top 5%” etc. This top tier is elite for a reason, and for most players merely practicing and playing a ton just isn’t enough; most people just won’t have what it takes…thus why I said the “top 5%” and not “top 35%”.

Most of the time, they will play with and against players just like them — have a real good grasp of the game, can beat a lot/most players, but just aren’t at that next level. Which is perfectly fine, and expected, and can/is a great way to experience the game; you can still be better than 80% of the playerbase and be “competitive” within the game. And, at this level you don’t have to merely play the meta builds, because not every team are going to be cookie-cutter tryhards running Ele-Ele-Engi-War-Thief teams. It will still be guilds and groups of friends that play competitively, but with the professions they enjoy playing.

jportell.2197:

skcamow.3527:

jportell.2197:

Levetty.1279:

As I constantly point out, anytime somebody tries to start a conversation about the weaknesses of the Mesmer class and the poor way in which the balance team have handled the class somebody always comes in to tell us stories about how they can take on entire enemy zergs or 1v1 thiefs with no traits.

Very tiring.

This right here, people keep saying how they have these amazing builds that are gonna be the meta, completely ignoring why mesmers are taken in the first place. People completely ignore that the only viable build mesmers have, is hard countered by well any thief build. They then point out how they have an amazing build that completely wrecks thieves. Well what does it do besides that? Does it match necros/engis condi pressure? Does it have the sustain of any of the other classes? How is it mobility wise? Does it even have portal? What about boon removal?

Then it’s clear that this amazing gonna be meta build is good for one thing, countering thieves, and nothing else.

Would absolutely love hearing about a build with zero traits that works vs thieves and takes on entire zergs.

And would also love to hear about amazing builds claiming to be the next meta! The only builds I’ve seen talked about in this thread are those that perform pretty decent vs thieves. And those same builds weren’t touted to be the end all build for every situation.

The message is to simply adapt when you see a potential hard counter on the other team. When I see a thief, I’ll play one of those effective aforementioned builds and I’ll generally perform rather well. Conversely, if I see an engineer I’ll likely go shatter because the power damage is better vs the turret spam.

In the end you play to win after all. Adapting is the way to play to win.

Yes but the problem is every build that is built to hard counter thieves, and by hard counter I mean survive just enough of their burst to hope you get them down, sucks against any other build/class. Take the condi builds for instance, sure they are gonna wreck thieves. What about the other classes in the meta? How are you going to try and condi down a d/d cele ele with the absolute highest uptime on condi clear in the game. Or a shoutbow that comes in a close second? What about engineers that run a cele build that says “condis? Oh here have some nades.”

I can understand the want to build just so you can deal with thieves, but you lose all your effectiveness against any other class/build that is used.

MtD builds absolutely wreck Engi and Warrior meta builds in 1v1 situations (and 2v2s that don’t include double AoE cleaning professions), and do actually overwhelm D/D as well (though the latter takes a little longer).

Lockdown builds are able to fare very well vs the above professions as well; though they wouldn’t be able to hold/contest a point like MtD; though they do better in larger fights.

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

Vieux P.1238:

*rolling my eyes……. again!!! —-————Sigh—-Come back to me when your rank 80.

Hard to argue with your logic and counter-points.

What’s the use to counter? you come back with the same answer time after time after we have explained to you why it’s not gonna work. You just want to have the last word. So what ever! I’m not wasting time arguing with you no more cuz you sound like a broken record.

Feel free to use the permalink icon to cut and paste a link to your “counter” so myself and others can figure out where your argument against our points is located, as I don’t see it in this thread. The only thing I saw from re-reading is that “anet nerfed PU so its not viable anymore”. (though I never argued in favor of PU being a realistic build anyway).

Vieux P.1238:

*rolling my eyes……. again!!! —-————Sigh—-Come back to me when your rank 80.

Hard to argue with your logic and counter-points.

jportell.2197:

Levetty.1279:

As I constantly point out, anytime somebody tries to start a conversation about the weaknesses of the Mesmer class and the poor way in which the balance team have handled the class somebody always comes in to tell us stories about how they can take on entire enemy zergs or 1v1 thiefs with no traits.

Very tiring.

This right here, people keep saying how they have these amazing builds that are gonna be the meta, completely ignoring why mesmers are taken in the first place. People completely ignore that the only viable build mesmers have, is hard countered by well any thief build. They then point out how they have an amazing build that completely wrecks thieves. Well what does it do besides that? Does it match necros/engis condi pressure? Does it have the sustain of any of the other classes? How is it mobility wise? Does it even have portal? What about boon removal?

Then it’s clear that this amazing gonna be meta build is good for one thing, countering thieves, and nothing else.

Nobody is remotely arguing the Strawmen that you are presenting. People are arguing:

1) If you are tired of consistently getting farmed by thieves, perhaps try a build that doesn’t get hardcountered by thieves; and

2) If you are worried about playing other builds because they aren’t “the meta”, you probably shouldn’t be; because

3) For 95% of people in PvP —-- The.meta.does.not.matter. If you are elite enough where everyone you run up against is top tier, and all you see are Ele/Engi/War/Theif compositions? Then yah, your in a tough spot. For everyone else? You can be plenty viable and strong to a team with a variety of builds that aren’t completely hardcountered by thieves.

I continue to run a celestial signet lockdown build as my primary pvp build. 2/6/6 with signet traits, BI, mostly standard traits you can figure out.

Keeping up might isn’t a problem with MoD, pistol5, staff5, SoD, F3. Very non-traditional build, but celestial really helps with sustain, even though we don’t get as much bang for the buck out of healing power as the traditional cele builds. Primarily helps our regen, which we can often keep in the 75-100% range.

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)

Seriously Alanis do you even play a mesmer? Sure, does builds & others not mentioned are good. In the good old days. But i’m sorry, there no longer viable vs a thief among others. Not in a 1v1 situation. If you have help, no problem. but otherwise, plz stop trying to convince there’s no problem with the mesmer.

& no, it’s not a Boon problem. Boon traits we have. I’ve already mentioned what we lack of up in the thread. Read it!

I’m R77 in PvP, almost entirely on Mesmer. I’m around rank 350 in WvW, almost entirely roaming with my Mesmer. Its very likely that I have more hours on a Mesmer than you, but who knows maybe not (but a quick perusal of your past several months of posts, including how you found the only viable build as PU power and condi makes me think otherwise).

MtD builds vs S/D? its a pretty good matchup and comes down almost entirely to play skill and being able to catch them with a nice condi bomb, and not losing that to evade spam. But can still get away with making a few errors.

MtD builds vs D/P? Laughably easy. More hard-counter than thieves vs shatter meta.

Signet builds? I’m just going to assume that you have zero experience with Mesmer signet builds. The build I play the most is a lockdown version of countless’s build, and it just wrecks thieves. From countless’ video’s and stream, he doesn’t have problems with thieves either.

CI Lockdown does fine vs thieves. Often “how good” is determined by which weapons you bring, but I never have felt like I was hardcountered when I ran as CI. At least 40% win rate vs thieves, if not higher.

I don’t have as much experience as CS, but Ross does fairly well vs thieves there.

denis.9487:

Reading this makes me ponder. The biggest problem is our lack of generating boons. The only option we have is the hated pu. But think about what it gives. Life giving boons. The problem is pu is tied to stealth so can’t be used in conquest mode. The other posts say consume plasma is an issue. But think what it does it lets the thief have access to boons. No wonder why they target us.

CS and CA give a good amount of boons. The Chaos line also grants additional boons through minor (regen, prot) and major (BI) traits.

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

denis.9487:

The practice part is sort of like saying learn to play. Sadly learning to play works for both sides. That confusion beam screams dodge me. The block also needs to land, then you need to stay still no dodge roll to apply the block, the block is countered by enemy dodge rolling. The only thing left is the slow speed of the aa. Needs some speed love.

All skills in the game can be dodged, IIRC.

AnniMira.2506:

In WvW, the lord chests seems to be based on damage. If acceptable total damage comes in 8 seconds, it is goodbye to chests. Most tower lords are down pretty quickly.

Condition damage and their weapon types aren’t typically recommended for PvE.

AnniMira.2506:

Yes the damage from bleeding accumulates but warrior’s health did stay at 100%. No damage whatsoever. If warrior used some auto-healing, the health bar would have jumped down and up a tiny amount?

Scepter did not even hit. Guess I have to hit in their running direction, not sideways.

Obviously the combat log disagrees, as the bleeding did tick. The log also only shows the first 3 hits of the staff auto attack, and the condition damage from merely the first two…not exactly the longest interval for a damage-over-time weapon. The staff auto has pretty good condition damage, and if you trait for the bouncing attacks, it will eat anything without condition removals.

RE: Scepter, I have no trouble hitting anyone with the auto attack as long as they aren’t dodging or out of range.

AnniMira.2506:

My joy about scepter/staff was short. Here is combat log about situation in which I went to tower to safe when 3 enemies in WvW approached. I had full rapid. Compare the damage done by enemy and done by my mesmer.

(necro) critically hits you for 1,200 using [Necrotic Grasp]
(necro) hits you for 620 using [Necrotic Grasp]
(necro) hits you for 56 using [Bleeding]
(necro) critically hits you for 1,097 using [Necrotic Grasp]

At this point I was safe. When enemy warrior was alone, I attacked:

You critically hit (warrior) for 158 using [Winds of Chaos]
You hit (warrior) for 252 using [Bleeding]
You hit (warrior) for 252 using [Bleeding]
You critically hit (warrior) for 2 using Winds of Chaos
You hit (warrior) for 252 using [Bleeding]
You hit (warrior) for 107 using [Winds of Chaos]
You hit (warrior) for 378 using [Bleeding]
You hit (warrior) for 103 using [Winds of Chaos]
You hit (warrior) for 504 using [Bleeding]
You hit (warrior) for 378 using [Bleeding]
You critically hit (warrior) for 2 using Winds of Chaos

After staff I switched to scepter, but apparently it did not hit because warrior moved sideways and slow projectiles were too slow. I checked that warrior’s health did stay at 100% – no signs about damage done by me.

Re: Staff. Your WoC bleeding procs, even without food/crystals, will do around 900 damage over 8 seconds. Showing damage logs for less time will obviously skew data towards direct damage attacks.

Re: Scepter. Use more than the auto attack. The torment from scepter 2 will do between 4,000-8,000 damage depending on if the enemy is moving. 5 stacks of Confusion from Scepter 3 will do over 800 damage per skill used by the enemy, and can last for over 10 seconds.

Practice more. Both of these weapons, for condi users, are extremely powerful.

Yah, this should be a Mesmer steamroll. A lockdown Mesmer’s dream.

Dirven.3021:

This build feels so weak compared to other builds used in spvp. Definitely wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Also the distortion on signet is such a waste since ground-targetted AoEs still hit you. I cannot see how this build would be superior in any situation to other builds currently used in spvp. I can only see this work if you just ‘enjoy’ playing this build, but apart from that… just no.

Sorry you didn’t enjoy it, Driven. Its such a different playstyle that I’m certain many people won’t be interested in adapting to it.

I’m not entirely sure about this “ground targetted AoE’s still hit you” thing — I cannot recall every taking any direct damage or get any new conditions added to me while under effect of distortion. I know I can walk through Ring of Warding and Slick Shoes without any issues while under distortion. I’d be surprised if it worked different for GTAOE stuff, so much that I would imagine that being a bug.

Snakebyte.2804:

alanis.6094:

Yah, I’d try PD more often if it wasn’t for the silly cast time. I shatter too much and often feel like I waste him when using it.

Shattering too much is a problem I had initially but your staff clones do STUPID damage with IE trained and once I stopped shattering every time I had my clones up and rather waited for appropriate times, I noticed my win rate spike.

I get it though- shattering can be too fun NOT to sometimes :p

Shatter scepter, kite staff.

Yah, I’d try PD more often if it wasn’t for the silly cast time. I shatter too much and often feel like I waste him when using it.

Messiah:

So I’ve constantly struggled with what condi clear I’m gonna use for MTD. I almost always end up at Resolve, which I frankly find an obnoxious cleanse to use; I really hate charging it up again. That being said, 4 clears per 20s is solid. I used to always run AT in WvW, with Menders, but shelved it in PvP because of the long CD.

So my question — have you ever tried dropping DD for Manipulation cooldowns? I ran through your videos, and very rarely have I noticed clone deaths. I actually didn’t notice one single weakness proc at all. With the nature of MTD being to shatter so often, I’m going to try this switch and give it a go and report back.

Interrupt Mesmer.

Minor update:

Cannot get enough of this build, specifically the 2/6/6 Celestial Interrupt Signet build. Doubt its for everyone, and I doubt its the best build for upper tiers, but I just really enjoy it and don’t encounter much that I really have a great deal of trouble with; or at least if/when I die don’t think that there wasn’t anything I could have done better. Seems to have a lot of tools. Have settled into Traveler Runes and Doom/Energy for the most part, but have tried Adventure Runes on some of the maps where the run speed isn’t as necessary (namely Foefire).

Biggest trouble spots:

1. Large condi spikes from +1 fights. Vs your typical condi classes I can usually get them down, as I do pretty strongly vs Necro, grenade Engi, and decent vs condi Ranger.

2. Point holding vs several professions. The distortions really add up. This is my biggest issue, but often in pug your still one of the best holders (or at least, willing).

Feel free to spec Maim or Signet build and compete/beat them?

Seeing more of these builds around.

MailMail.6534:

Really interesting. If I weren’t heavily testing this tank build, I would be spending more time to testing out the cele build you suggest. The way you describe it gives me the impression that it has a certain amount of viability. Honestly, the only other cele build I could see working is a 0/4/04/0/6 Maim build.

But could “Malignant Inscriptions” work with cele. You make a convincing argument based on your posts. The weapon sets actually lends itself to being a great hybrid phantasm build.

• pWarlock doing increased dmg per condition, while the myriad of conditions from clone deaths and Staff AA ticks.
• pDuelist dealing significant physical damage while also proccing a ton of bleeds with crit chance.

Traveler’s is a decent choice. The mobility is its most impressive feature obviously. You make an ok case as to why it’s good in this build, but you obviously lose a lot of condi damage. My fear is that with that rune choice, it’s very watered down when you’re fighting on point.

This build is my baby, and I promise to actually give an updated review on the concept of this build based on my own testing when I get a chance!!

Frankly, without the bouncing trait, the condi damage really isn’t all that overwhelming regardless of 850 vs 1100 condition damage. Being able to roam, to me, appears to do much more for my teams success. And the build gets to utilize all the stats, which in total is more than a Condi rune. The boon duration is also pretty nice, especially the chaos armor protection since I can’t get the staff trait. Its almost 8s with Midnight up.

At this point, I’m using this build more often than Maim, which I didn’t expect.

If you have interrupts, just wait for the unbelievably noticeably spinning animations. You aren’t going to interrupt their heal, so focus on that.

Despite loving the condi damage and interrupt, the complete lack of speed/movement (Blink, Swiftness, Portal, etc) has led me to change rune sets again to Travelers. While I lose the obvious condi damage, my total stats go up and this build utilizes them all to some degree — even the healing power cause you will have a very high regen uptime with Metaphysical Rejuv and Chaos Armor (2x with combo) with 55% boon duration. I just couldn’t live without the 25% speed, and I’m seeing better results because I can roam more and make more of a difference.

Windwalker.7421:

What is your build, 4/4/0/0/6 with boon strip?

I can’t be sure for the entire video, but for much of it he is 04406. (staff trait). Same build I run when MTD.

Two things:

1) wtf is your asura?!?

2) more importantly, one thing I noticed that we do differently in how we MTD. You seem to open mostly with CoF as your first shatter. I will 99% of the time open up with MW. This is because I expect many players to use a big condi clear when they see 6+ torment and the additional confusion and various other conditions on them. I then wait 12s for MW to come off cooldown, and repeat a MW → Images → CoF. Using CoF first makes me wait an extra 10+ seconds to burst before its back on cooldown.

MailMail.6534:

Yeah, I definitely think that in a celestial build, nightmare would be the superior rune choice. So you think cele would be the build you’d most likely keep in your set of builds? I have been on a small hiatus traveling recently.

I’m working on my second big theory crafting project. I’ll be posting the build soon, but I’m so happy that you’ve helped the community to explore this build with even more depth. Thank you so much!!

The Cele build is the only signet build that I have stuck with, and I play with it a lot recently. I figure if I’m going to be running Rabid, I am already sacrificing sustain vs Celestial, so I might as well get the best DPS (Maim) out of it. I still find Maim superior to Cele Signet 1v1 (and actually 1v2), but anything larger and the ability to lock down someone with Pistol5, Domination, and interrupting heals/rez/stomps really wrecks someone in group fights.

In his defense, all of the skills he mentioned are different levels of OP.

I think its tough to get away from in Zerker builds. However, two of my three primary builds forgo Decoy:

1) Maim build→ Blink, Resolve, Mirror Images
2) Celestial Signet build → Distraction, Midnight, Domination

Still playing around with the Celestial Signet build I’m testing out. I’ve gotten some tells about it in OMFG, so here is the exact build link:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7ansISNaWhGOoB3aGx1YM9JzECpCo0VM9GA-TJRHwAC3fQwFBAwTA4YZAA

Nothing too out of the ordinary from what the other builds here are. One thing that is different from when I started playing it is the change from Undead Runes. I tried Krait as well, but settled on Nightmare. The 6p bonus does occasionally give an extra Interupt, as well as the condition duration which helped out where Undead was lacking.

20 & 38? Yawn. /15char

From his recent broadcasts, Countless is also using Celestial, though doesn’t go up to get Toughness→Condi Dmg trait (still using 26420). Can’t figure out exactly what runes he’s using…Its not Krait, Travelers, Grenth, Balzathar, Scavenging, Adventurer, or Undead, unless I missed a proc in there somewhere. Don’t think its Nightmare. Pretty sure its a condi damage rune to get the bleed tick number, though I might be mistaken because SoD is sometimes up and sometimes on CD.

MailMail.6534:

I am VERY interested in your celestial build. Very very interesting indeed! Please tell me more about it! You end up with 100- toughness, 10%- crit and 200- condition damage, but everything else is buffed with cele. I see your iDuelist and iWarlock receiving a major buff in dps here. The problem I see here is that signet clone death builds already see lower pressure in team fights. Are you able to make an impact here with the extra dps or not?

PLEASE report back your findings, and thanks a lot for your contributions.

I was able to do a lot of testing of the 26600 celestial signet build. The best was to describe it is — versatile.

My other two primary builds are Maim (04406) and Lockdown (44600). This build doesn’t have the burst conditions of Maim, nor the burst direct damage and control of Lockdown. It doesn’t assault/1v1 points as well as Maim, and doesn’t drop targets quickly in group battles like CI.

However, it does like 80% of each of these builds. While in group fights, I don’t need to reset when focused as much as I would with CI, and in fights with 3+ enemies I can get up to 20 stacks of might rather quickly while still maintaining the important aspects of lockdown — preventing heals, rezzes, stomps. It also offers more ‘hard CC’ than my typical CI build, which doesn’t use Pistol5 or Domination signet.

Off-point and 1v1, it was pretty strong though I didn’t come up against much of my primary classes that I speculate could be difficult, particularly a condi ranger (I play a lot of condi ranger and envision being able to take out myself on this build without much trouble).

Vs other Condi? Necro’s are so incredibly susceptible to lockdown that I just need to watch out for condition transfers and I’d be fine. Engi’s typically weren’t too much trouble either, though five gauge at me a few times; but less than he typically eats me, this being a primarily ’he’s much better than me’ fight.

It’s a build I might end up adding to my kitten nal, especially since all I do is solo Q and having the flexibility to fight at mid or a side-point is helpful. You never known when you’ll get teammates that can/will only fight on side as well, or professions that can’t sit on home point.

Don’t love any Tank build that doesn’t:

1) Use Staff and Sword/X
2) Stability (preferably 3 charges)
3) Heal on Mantra
4) Illusionary Membrane

So I guess 06440?

MailMail.6534:

Oh tell me about it. Line of Sight issues with S. Domination is so freaking annoying.

I am VERY interested in your celestial build. Very very interesting indeed! Please tell me more about it! You end up with 100- toughness, 10%- crit and 200- condition damage, but everything else is buffed with cele. I see your iDuelist and iWarlock receiving a major buff in dps here. The problem I see here is that signet clone death builds already see lower pressure in team fights. Are you able to make an impact here with the extra dps or not?

I don’t see the Maim one being effective. I do see the value in having Staff reductions though. I tried it, and I liked it a lot, but my issue at the time was getting condi bombed, which is why I love having the 3 condi cleanses on heal when I really need it.

PLEASE report back your findings, and thanks a lot for your contributions.

Trying to find time to play more of the Celestial version. Something wacky is going on with matchmaking the last two days — I keep getting matched up with/against guys from Abjured and other recognizable names. My talent is not in that tier, though I generally feel I’m as good or better than most I’ve played with prior to this stretch so maybe I tier jumped prematurely! So I’ve ended up switching to more traditional builds in those games. I don’t like playing unranked, but will try some of it now.

My biggest concern is going to be condition clears in the Cele build with only Cleansing Inscriptions, since I’d like to run the daze mantra.

Oh, and here is my biggest complaint: You can’t use SoD unless you are facing your target.

I messed around with a few versions of this build last night. All versions included Ether, Domination, and Midnight. All with Staff, Scepter/Pistol.

26420 – the build in the OP. I thought it was decent, but was tough to get adjusted to the lack of movement. I swapped Blink in for Portal often, as in soloQ I rarely get great usage out of Portal.

26600 Rabid Staff-CD trait – I liked this one a little more, as the long CD on phase retreat was a lot to get used to (I typically run Maim with Damening for 6s retreat). Chaotic Transference really bumped up the Condi damage.

26006 Rabid Maim – Didn’t like it, as I play Maim so often I didn’t really adjust my playstyle and 4 Chaos is more defense than the distortion for me. Too squishy.

26600 Celestial UndeadRunes DazeMantra BI – This build was very interesting, and I could see some potential. Going to try more of it tonight. Often fell victim to terrible matchmaking so was tough to figure out its usefulness. Pulling 1100 condi damage with celestial was interesting. This was probably my favorite ones.

26402 Rabid CleanseMantra – picked up Masterful Reflection. Situationally hilarious, but very situational.

Tonight? Gonna try more of the Celestial Signet build, as well as 26204, picking up Illusionary Elasticity. This build relies so much on staff clones, dunno why I forgot to try it last night.

StickerHappy.8052:

Okay point taken, but since he has the retal part in there, so it makes it kinda unique right?
Ps. Go to sleep pyro lol

No, because people take retal in condi builds, though typically the block retaliation trait (which, frankly, he should have taken over PF). I had a long discussion last night about that trait in OMFG. (retal on block)

Ran into Countless tonight, and the dude is super slippery as kitten. My initial thoughts was that he was a better player than the build, but I might give it a try.

Edit: I read your note on Confusing Cry, and fair enough. If you are going that route I’d also take Retaliatory Shield to get permanent uptime on retaliation. Phant Fury really does nothing for this build.

As someone that plays Condi-Shatter/MTD, I’ll give my quick thoughts:

1) Good work in putting the time and effort into describing the build.

2) This build is Condi-Shatter/MTD, not “the punisher”. The 44006 is one of the most common setups here, and merely replacing a few traits and utility with less effective ones doesn’t really change the core build.

3) While Feedback will help you vs. LB Rangers, its going to cost you vs literally every other relatively common class/build in the game. You have no condi removal whatsoever, and play a build that does best at outlasting others and being in ‘relatively’ close quarters. (If your opponent see’s 3 clones running at them from 1200 range and fails to dodge, you could likely beat that player with a 00000 build). Ironically, Vs. Rangers was a big design of the build, but condi rangers will hard counter you more than a Thief counters Shatter mesmer.

3) Phantasmal Fury on a condi build with Mage/Warlock. There are much better options, and if you wanted the retaliation you can get the retaliation on block trait.

4) Some people (and I have before) confuse Confusing Cry (retaliation on CoF) with Master of Misdirection (increase confusion duration). Was that your intent here? If you are looking for retaliation, which actually isn’t terrible in a condi build due to the amount of hits you can take, I’d suggest just running Dueling3 and Illusions5. You can keep up decent retaliation with Dueling3, Scepter2, and Staff5.

Overall its a fairly effective build, but its “been done”, if you will.

Bump. Necro & Mesmer are just invisible here.

You could use a lockdown type of build with those weapon sets. Bigger issue is the lack of strong amulet to use for it, at least until (and if) Condi-Power-Pre gets added in PvP mode.

Jurica.1742:

Celestial works on mesmer! …so does using rabid in a power build.

You can kill stuff but there are much better options as you’re not using all the stats. I’ve had so many ideas with celestial, might stacking via interrupts, taking advantage of healing via signet ect, but in the end, Supcutie tried it all out already and he just says it simply doesn’t work due to not using all the stats effectively which in the end I also convinced myself.
Maim wise, it is an interesting concept but against decent players it won’t work too well. It’s a very sloppy build to play. I won’t go into details as I know so many people have posted here why it is sloppy. I’d love a condi shatter build, but it just doesn’t work as good as it should be to be worth running.
In conclusion:
Celestial mesmer -> no.
Maim -> no.

Most players won’t reach a level where Maim ceases to be viable.

Nightmare or Traveler’s are typically the best bang for the buck, depending on how much roaming you plan to do.

As someone that has run every Maim build I can imagine, even several without DE, I’ll give my thoughts on my time running a very, very similar build…

By biggest issues with Celestial here is:

1) The lack of healing power usage. You get it with your heal skill, and then only with Chaos Armor (for about 10s every 35s, assuming you use combo field). You can improve upon that with moving those points from Domination to Choas/Inspiration, but then you are losing that damage.

2) The utilities needing to make 20 Domination work. W/o Torch, I’m going to need Decoy. For Maim, I’m going to really want MI. And a condition cleanse is pretty much mandatory for a sustain build. At the end of the day, there is no room for Blink and I find that a dealbreaker.

3) I really didn’t gain anything from Celestial in terms of survivability in this setup. My toughness was lower, but I gained 4K health. However, that I lose Illusionary Membrane, DD, Metaphysical Rejuv, and greater Chaos Storm uptime from a Rabid/Chaos Maim build.

Bunda.2691:

alanis.6094:

Bunda.2691:

Great write-up.

I’m having success with a condition lockdown, which I think has a lower skill cap (and thus better suited to my less-than-stellar skill level) and higher cheese factor. Wondering if anyone else has been trying something like this as well?

Using staff, scepter/pistol with -/4/6/-/4 and rabid trinket w/ undead runes. It’s a little cheesy, in that I’m just interrupting to death while conditions overwhelm them. Throw in signet of domination for condi damage and another interrupt (for a total of 5 plus f3), and you can easily keep might stacks high for major condi damage. Weakness of course is no condi removal, but I’ll sometimes swap the offensiveness of signet of dom for null field if I see a necro approaching.

Anyone else tried condi lockdown?

Tried it and found it OK enough. Didn’t love having to spend a utility slot on Power Lock, since I always want to have some condi removal.

Ultimately just felt like replacing Power Lock with MI, and CI with Maim did a lot more.

I think you’re right in that the damage output is a bit of a wash compared to condition shatter. But people have become good at predicting shatters, and thus I think the condi-lockdown catches them off guard.

Well, that isn’t exactly what I was trying to say. I felt it was decent/enjoyable enough. I don’t think the damage output was remotely in the ballpark of what Maim puts out.