Guild Wars 2

If you like the second one, 36% crit chance is fine, since you would be running hidden killer, so your backstabs would always crit.

D/D is one of the harder sets to use on thief because of the lack of defensive abilities. The skill set is designed for mostly burst damage. But it is still very viable if played correctly. You can run a variety of builds with this. The standard one is 2/6/6 or 0/6/6/2/0(these are for WvW). The harder one to run is 2/6/0/0/6(For PvP and WvW), which has more utility and damage but is very lacking in defense(I like running lyssa runes with this build in wvw). You could even run something like 26060 if you want, or 20606, which has the defensive capabilities of shadow arts but also the utility of trickery(this one leans toward more sustained dps playstyle)

Overall, just run what you think is fun. You don’t have to run a meta build, just play what you like.

hihey.1075:

NA salt is the best salt

I’m scared…

Hold me…

Bret.6940:

Yes that was just said. i wanna har everyones comment on this regardless if they agree of not. Bring on the hate. Also if you ran 6-6-x-x-x you could use panic strike or residule venom and CnD backstab me becasue im not using a stunbreaker. That is why i said zerker counters it. Spam shortbow clusterbomb it wrecks people regardless if they have armor or not.

Who runs 66xxx seriously in wvw? I run 06260, and even if I was running 66xxx it could be easily dodged. Zerker doesn’t counter condi in 99.99999 percent of situations.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

I fear for the thief community X_X

What Thief community?

Didn’t you hear about the December 2013 Mass Exodus?

Oh dear, I had almost forgotten.

Bret.6940:

All in all its just a game and if i offended you im sorry but next time you try and gank me while i have 25 stacks and both guard stacks you might wanna at least have yours too. As for me runnign initially i didnt have my smokescreen on or i would have fought ya so i broke away to change my 25% run speed signet. I did let ya live after the fight because you did bow and after that i went north to find my ranger friend fighting a 1v4 so all is fair in wvw.

Yeah I wasn’t offended, I was laughing because you said zerker countered perplex, and it wasn’t technically a gank, since you were running towards me but that doesn’t matter so w/e.

Oh, he’s here.

I’m not going to say anything other than you should realize that your spec is pretty op, and if you don’t realize that then you’re delusional. And zerker thief does not counter condi thief…In fact I’m pretty sure that anything zerker doesn’t counter condi.

Although you can play what you want, I think you should just know that. I understand that people like the condition play style, which is fine, but it’s pretty passive and easy and can kitten on zerker builds.

I think he was from TC. lol

Either he’s trolling, or he legitimately thinks this.

This condi perplex thief reset twice against me while having a ranger using sic em on me, after thye tried to 1v2 me I ran, and he proceeded to laugh spam. So he came up to me and bowed, I had no cooldowns but I decided to bow back. That was when smoke screen + 4 headshots in a row came, so I /sat and let him kill me. I then whispered him about how he was running condi perplexity, and this happened.

I fear for the thief community X_X

This is amazing

I might cry…

In short: in pvp, no.

In PvP, sustainability shouldn’t be your priority since you’re a thief. Your job is to support your team with damage and decaps. Invigorating precision does not help accomplish this.

Now, in WvW, you can really do whatever you want, just know that this skill is not meant to be a primary source of sustain. It’s not an alternative of healing signet. You will still have to use your heal.

They just need to remove/replace this trait, it’s causing a huge controversy. I run 2 in SA to get the necessary condi clear needed in WvW Roaming, and it is horrible when I have to stop attacking around 35% hp just so I don’t get revealed, and when I stop attacking even that can get me killed, considering my build relies on aggression. There’s not much winning with this trait.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I was disappointed when you burst that condi Thief and it didn’t die. I think you have too much heal that your damage output suffered. Then again, it might just be the whole problem with Thief’s low burst due to consecutive nerfs.

IMO, you played Thief well enough to not have to rely on both IP and AR. I think you’re better off to invest in more power/damage and keep only IP instead of both. I’m sure that with more power/damage, you’ll easily replace the heal from AR since it will heal you for more from your auto-attacks.

Yeah, I definitely will experiment with just IP after patch and try out fleet shadow or investing into a different traitline. And yeah, it is a bit harder to burst condi thieves since they most likely run dire. IMO, this build is more about sustained bursting, that way you sustain yourself and kill your enemy simultaneously. It is hard to run without hidden killer or executioner, but it is very possible. I think I may try out running more precision-based gear, that way I get more dps and sustain at the same time.

And thanks for the comment

Nephrite.6954:

I really would prefer feline grace over cloaked in shadow honestly. Blind during stealth might be useful against melee range but dodging is just the best way to mitigate damage, with pew pew rangers ahead you get to gap close easier. Awesome video dude, love the previous one too.

Thanks! I don’t use blind on stealth actually, I use shadow’s embrace, and I get feline grace from 6 in acro.

Yeah, I’m in mostly zerker gear and get around 40+ crit chance with oils. And yes, the reward and invig. precision does not seem noticeable at times, but compared to not having either one it’s a huge difference. It helps make up for the lack of sustain from shadow’s rejuvenation. After the patch it should be a lot better, too.

But trust me, it does help a lot, but you can run hidden killer for extra damage which is good. Also note that in a lot of points in the vid I was using cruelty stacks rather than perception, which is what I normally use, so I crit much more often.

My 4th roaming video, now on Jade Quarry

I’m glad to have posted this, I waited a while because I kind of forgot about it and I wasn’t sure if I liked the last 2 fights in the video…but I decided to release anyways. As you may notice I’m running a new build, 0/6/2/6/0, which you may think is terrible, or innovative, but I’ve been running this for several months now with pretty good success.

There are many variants to this build, but here is the one that I prefer:

Originally I ran hidden killer with cruelty stacks; I now run invigorating precision combined with assassin’s reward for insane CnD + Backstab damage+healing. Acro D/D is played pretty differently from the traditional full SA. You have to be much more aggressive and active in the fight to be successful. And I think I like it a lot more than the SA playstyle. It lacks opening burst, but has more sustained burst due to fluid strikes (10% damage when endurance is not full) and is very fun to play.

Sorry for my SA vs Acro rant, here is the info:

Edited using: Adobe Premiere Pro CC

Songs in order:
8 Dawn Music- Indestructible
Position Music- Extra Dimensional
Varien- Cloak And Dagger
SAVOY & Heather Bright- So Bad

As an IP user I approve of this message.

Lack of utility, very little defense, reliance on landing cloak and daggers to stealth, initiative management (which is tied to cloak and dagger).

However, the thing it does excel at is chase and bursting people.

If you use steal with mug right as you land your CnD, it reveals you. A few patches ago, anet (for some stupid reason, who knows why, maybe just a bug) added in a delay to steal’s actual hit connect. So if you use it right as your CnD lands, the hit processes afterwards, which leads to being revealed.

Nephrite.6954:

D/D spvp. I understand that the meta choices are better and that running full SA is tough but just wanted to see some other d/d build in spvp(not condi based)

The problem with d/d in pvp is that it lacks utility, and it is pure damage. For pvp you need the utility of d/p in order to move your skill cap up, and improve your play. If you don’t play seriously, however, you could run d/d in pvp if you wanted to. Just run standard d/p setup. You could also try panic strike.

I run this and invigorating precision together to get a lot of healing.

I know what you’re thinking. This guy’s crazy. But for my build (0/6/2/6/0) I don’t have shadow’s rejuvenation which is why I run both assassin’s reward and invigorating precision for extra sustain. You can actually get a crap ton of healing from these two combined. You can heal for around 800 on a single cloak and dagger. And on a non crit you still get ~450 hp. I also run roll for initiative because that helps with intiative management and gives more healing to you by doing this. It’s also a good stunbreaker.

Although I think it could use a slight base healing buff, I don’t think it’s entirely useless.

Arikyali.5804:

I…I….

I still prep s/d 3 for a boon steal before going into shadowstep.

-sulks-

-puts hand on shoulder-

That’s… that’s a tough life buddy.

I have something I need to confess to you all…

When I’m fighting an Asura I forget all of my teef training and when I cloak and dagger, I just press 5 and hope that I hit something.

And sometimes…I like to heartseeker spam.

I think what they should do with “X amount of health triggers this” abilities is have an indicator off to the side when you reach that threshold, then you can choose to activate it with a keybind. However, I think that Last refuge should go up to a higher threshold for this to work, maybe 33%. This could also work with Pain Response, since it does proc even when you have no condis, and you can choose when you would want to clear it.

Paavotar.3971:

alchemyst.2165:

Um…no.

We should actually fix shield bash. Currently if you dodge shield bash, you can still get hit by the following skill right after the end of your dodge, for example, eviscerate, or mace stun.

And 3 seconds is too long. As stated above, shield bash is used as an opener. It doesn’t need to be 3 seconds. Plus, Warriors already have crazy CC abilities.

Dodge twice then? I would like to evade whole meteor shower by dodging once, but that’s not how it works.

You can’t dodge twice. If you dodge right before the shield bash hits you, you get hit with eviscerate right at the end of your dodge. And you can’t really react to it right when it starts so you can double dodge. THe only way you can really avoid both is if you dodge right when shield bash starts, which is near impossible. It’s actually punishing dodging on reaction.

Um…no.

We should actually fix shield bash. Currently if you dodge shield bash, you can still get hit by the following skill right after the end of your dodge, for example, eviscerate, or mace stun.

And 3 seconds is too long. As stated above, shield bash is used as an opener. It doesn’t need to be 3 seconds. Plus, Warriors already have crazy CC abilities.

If you’re running boonsteal, like trickery, it depends on player skill and aggressiveness. If you’re not running boonsteal it’s much harder, and you have to be very aggressive to get their hp down, while still being concerned with your own.

hihey.1075:

Shadow Embrace swapped to Last refuge? That would be an extremely imbalanced buff. Despite how much I hate Last Refuge, there’s no way I’d accept a change like this.

I can see why you’d say that. Honestly I’m fine with anything that fixes, replaces, or removes last refuge. This was just one suggestion.

Maugetarr.6823:

I’d like assassin’s equilibrium to grant 1 second of stability at the beginning of a dodge roll. Optionally it could also increase the movement distance of the dodge roll by 50% (making it 450). This would allow for better repositioning and be useful against wards /walls.

SoA doesn’t need the endurance regen bumped down, but it certainly could use the number of conditions removed bumped up by 1.

DB doesn’t need the bleeds changed, but it definitely needs a rework of the pre/post cast and the evade frames.

DD could definitely use a projectile speed buff.

The rest I’m neutral on or don’t think they need a change.

I like your assassin’s equilibrium idea. With SoA I feel that full endurance regen and 2 condis would be a bit much, and would put S/D Acro thieves too over the top, which is why I suggested bumping it down to 50%. But anything can be tested, of course, and it’s ultimately Anet’s decision.

The reason I suggested DB change for vuln instead of bleed is because it’s the only condi ability in a full power set. There are clues, however, that D/D should be hybrid, but we currently do not have the proper capabilities to be a viable hybrid. Celestial might work, but our overall damage output would be better if we just stuck to power or condi. So if it were to stay as bleeds, we would need better hybrid capabilities.

I have some suggestions for the thief class.

Signet of Agility: Increase condi removal to 2, decrease endurance regen to 50%. This would help out non SA thieves while keeping S/D acro thieves in check.

Assassin’s Equilibrium: Gain protection (or vigor/ whichever) when attacking out of stealth. This trati is pretty much useless, give us something that will actually help us.

Dagger storm: More reliable hits, decrease cooldown to X (75?)

Shadowstep: Clear condis on first shadowstep, so you don’t have to waste both shadowsteps just to cure conditions.

Last Refuge: Swap with Shadow’s Embrace.

Death Blossom: Stack vuln instead of bleed, scale better with power for AoE damage, increase reliability of evade.

Dancing Dagger: Increase projectile speed.

Discuss

They should also be fixed so that if you dodge them, you don’t get screwed over at the end of it and still get hit. Also for shield bash.

Is it just me or is another problem with D/D eles the fact that you cant see anything that you’re fighting because theres so many kitten effects ravaging your screen?

This is one of the reasons why I run roll for initiative in WvW.

From winning several matches in a row on premades I can give you this advice:

Assault the backlines and harass the living kitten out of them, and take down squishies. Make sure you call out the target you are going to burst. If you’re running d/p burst, you can stealth and get into the backlines, then burst low targets quickly. This will very much disrupt the enemy team.

Also, if there are fire fields, use shortbow #2 to give your team might. It helps IMMENSELY.

Another good strategy is to have your team stack on you, use black powder, and blast it for area stealth. This is great for ambushing the enemy team.

Use shortbow if you need to weaken the enemy group as a whole, or if you are too low hp to go into the backlines and burst.

fix Last Refuge slightly? Was in a hotjoin and I had condis on me and it popped, before it only popped if you got hit under 25%. Now when I read it it says" at below the health threshold"

Was it like this for a while or was it just patched?

You know, you could run both and be 26006.

Not really D/P exclusive, but I’ve got an example of a mind game you could use.

Basically just baiting them into going on the aggressive, allowing you to burst them down at low hp, and winning the fight, rather than going on the defensive and dragging it on longer.

You’ll want to run something like full zerk armor, cav rings and backpiece, and valk the rest. The reason I suggest cavalier is because you’ll need the extra armor, trust me. It helps quite a bit.

Not an exploit, the skill does not deal direct damage therefore does not break stealth. Is it so hard to walk/dodge out of it? Also, don’t complain about conditions when you don’t bring any condi cleanse.

Im going to start with the most important part first: Play what you want to play and is fun for you.

That being said, p/d condi is highly looked down upon by many, including myself. It is quite a handicap against players. But if you really do want to play condi, I would run dire or carrion, or if you want rabid for crit-proc sigils.

Hmm, your stats are good, I would just try and get more vitality since it will help with condis. Unless you have guard stacks. You have good -condition duration, and you also want to have a purity sigil on one of your weapons to help with the condis.

The build looks great on paper. If you want extra condi clear you could also run Hide in Shadows, but withdraw works great too, however it can be poisoned.

Yeah, a block on sword would make more sense. Dancing dagger is a skill whose function belongs in the d/d set, not a block. It just needs fixed.

DeceiverX.8361:

Would prefer to just move some of the condi removal elsewhere, honestly/give the class additional condition removal.

With such low base health and such limited clearing, it pigeon-holes too many thief builds into SA-Shadowstep for cleanses. I really think that needs to change.

But in all honesty, I think the issue is more about condition spamming. If there was simply less of it/it wasn’t as strong, less people would run SA on the basis that the cleanse wouldn’t be necessary and subsequently the rest of the tree wouldn’t be, either.

I have to agree with the fact that thief just needs more condition removal out of stealth. The fact that people are so reliant on stealth for defense is the problem, Arena Net needs to buff their outside-of-stealth survival without making it op combined with Shadow Arts. My simple suggestion is to buff acro condi removal, make signet of agility cure 2-3 conditions.

evilapprentice.6379:

Because you’re very clearly only talking about WvW. No one who’s talking about PvP thinks of SA as “a good traitline, arguably the best traitline a thief has”.

Changing the triggers from “Sit in stealth” to “gain stealth and gain revealed” is better for the class, and for the game. You are incorrect, but If I haven’t convinced you by this point, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

SA will never be good for pvp because of conquest. The fact that you have to go into stealth in the first place is the reason why it isn’t good for pvp. Who would choose Shadow Arts, a thing that rewards stealth but hinders your capture point progress/contesting, over Trickery, which gives some support to allies and more damage? Besides, in pvp you would probably want to trait for more damage than defense considering a thief’s role is, put simply, DPS. Shadow Arts is a (mostly) defensive traitline. Maybe if they add new game modes SA will be viable in pvp.

But this is going nowhere, so yeah, let’s agree to disagree.

Let me just put it simpler: Shadow Arts needs little tweaking. Only thing that needs changed is the healing of Shadow’s Rejuve, which should be nerfed slightly.

Why? Because of D/P, P/D or D/D thieves?

It’s just because the healing power of it is too strong for the amount of stealth you can access with Shadow Arts. I suggest it be around 280 per second.

evilapprentice.6379:

alchemyst.2165:

@evilapprentice I think for your changes we might as well make a new traitline called “Revealed Arts”. I’m pretty sure Shadow Arts is meant for more passive play anyways, if you don’t like the playstyle switch to acro.

No, that’s silly. Both a thieves defensive trait lines should be viable in PvP, WvW, and PvE. While “Revealed arts” sounds cute, you’re presenting an argument about semantics, which doesn’t really matter. It’s about better mechanics for the class.

You’ll also note that since to be revealed, you generally have to be in stealth first, as well as the fact that most of my suggestions have both a “gain stealth” and “gain revealed” component, Shadow arts still fits nicely.

And from what I understand is, you’re trying to make Shadow Arts viable in tpvp right? Well for 1 thing I don’t see the point in that because even with the changes people still wouldn’t play it. Also, there is already an active playstyle for you and it’s called 6 in acrobatics. Or trickery. What you’re proposing is to restrict diversity between traitlines. There’s nothing wrong with a more passive traitline.

I’m not sure I trust your power of prognostication. I’m sorry that you don’t see people using a better designed SA, but I do see it. As for limiting diversity, one defensive traitline is about evading attacks, the other is about going in and out of stealth (and in my suggestion, landing stealth attacks). My suggestion does nothing to make the 2 more similar.

Let me just put it simpler: Shadow Arts needs little tweaking. Only thing that needs changed is the healing of Shadow’s Rejuve, which should be nerfed slightly. But what you’re suggesting won’t help the thief class. In fact, it may hurt it since you would have to be TOO active in the fight to get any bonuses from your suggestions. To get any defensive bonuses from what you are describing, you would have to be very aggressive which contradicts defense especially when you’re in the middle of the fight and need to go on the defensive. While it may seem tactical to you, what you’re saying is to basically spam stealth, which is already what people do.

In the grand scheme of things, your changes will not help the thief class, and Shadow Arts does not need changed. It’s a good trait line, arguably the best traitline a thief has. Why change it?

glock.6590:

T raw.4658:

You do know that this would destroy any chance for thieves against condi.

Yes some thieves reset over and over and over again but one has to wonder what build are people using to fight thieves.

SA on a PD dire thief seems rediculous but the problem is actually dire/condi. SA DP is easily predictable and if you are losing to that this late in the game it’s because you got out played

This is a lie , any condi spike build is easy to avoid except for engis passive burning. A P/D thief without SA would also be easy kill.

Just because you can’t play without SA, doesn’t mean we all have that player skill issue.

So you’re basically saying that you’re so good and everyone else is bad because they use SA. Sounds a bit ego-centric to me.

And if you think that you’re fine without at least 2 in SA vs conditions you’re delusional, it can be incredibly hard to face conditions without SA. I’ve tried many builds without SA in WvW and it gets very frustrating when I have 6 conditions ticking down on me and no way to get rid of them. Or when I’m low hp and I’m about to kill the person, but then they apply a condition and I’m royally screwed over because I have 0 condition removal.

@evilapprentice I think for your changes we might as well make a new traitline called “Revealed Arts”. I’m pretty sure Shadow Arts is meant for more passive play anyways, if you don’t like the playstyle switch to acro.

And from what I understand is, you’re trying to make Shadow Arts viable in tpvp right? Well for 1 thing I don’t see the point in that because even with the changes people still wouldn’t play it. Also, there is already an active playstyle for you and it’s called 6 in acrobatics. Or trickery. What you’re proposing is to restrict diversity between traitlines. There’s nothing wrong with a more passive traitline.

I think they should have two playstyles available for thief. One is Shadow Arts: The patient, lurking, waiting to strike playstyle. The other SHOULD be acrobatics, the active, aggressive playstyle. Acro by itself as a defensive mechanism is good in pvp/wvw for S/D, but I don’t really ever see anything else played with it. Even with the build I run I still have to pick 2 in SA because it lacks condition removal. I’d really love to have mug

But what I think needs to happen is encouragement to move to the active playstyle for those who want to play like that. The problem is, Shadow Arts outshines Acrobatics in WvW. They need to be equal, that way there are two different playstyles for thief.

So, keep shadow arts, buff acro’s defensive mechanics like condition removal?

Using SA doesn’t make you bad, although it is a strong traitline which is why most thieves run it. I run 2 in SA just for the condition removal because I like the playstyle of 0/6/2/6/0 better but some people like the full SA playstyle. Nothing wrong with that. It’s probably one of our best defenses which is another reason why people run it. They shouldn’t NOT be allowed to play a stealth build on a stealth class…

Although I think Shadow Rejuve regen could be reduced to ~250-280 a second.

It was always there, just invisible I believe.

Really? I just spam 5 and jump away, sometimes I peck them to death and it’s glorious.