Guild Wars 2

Karl McLain.5604:

• Evasive Empowerment: This trait has been renamed to Havoc Master and grants the player 7% bonus damage to enemies within the 360 range threshold.

Ty for the trait named after me Karl

Each time you make changes they just get better and better. Loving them so far.

Weakening Strikes should give you decreased damage by weakened foes (reinforces brawler style) by 10-15% , BUT the other adept traits need to be put on par with it.

My suggestions:

Brawler’s Tenacity should either give 15-20 endurance, or 10 endurance and gain vigor for X seconds. I’m thinking somewhere around 3-5.

For Havoc wink Master I would buff it to 10-12%. Straight up damage buff for those who want an aggressive close-ranged playstyle.

Again, I would make Fist Flurry 170 range and a cone AoE, and I was going to suggest a cast time decrease but you got there before me :P Love this change.

Keep up the good work Karl.

Shogun.7401:

I like this but I doubt they want to make any more changes.

This.

Not really a fan of the GM’s but I love this.

NickuhhWha.6249:

As an eternal fan of D/D stabby shenanigans, I tried my best to make it work with daredevil. No matter what build I did, it couldn’t compare to anything being released. By splitting the focus between stealth and evasion, there’s no way to fit in essentials for each.

Honestly, even with reveals, I’ll still probably stick with my stealth build. But I’ve found it really fun to use staff with ENDLESS evades and just perpetually bounce the enemy team to death. All in all, staff does good damage and is fun, but no matter how many evades you have the lack of healing/invisibility makes things challenging as a thief.

Really? I found the most success running D/D Staff. I run DA/TR/DD running Weakening Strikes, Escapist’s Absolution, and Bound with Withdraw, ShadowStep, Bandit’s Defense, Fist Flurry and Impact Strike. It’s actually pretty good considering you have two weapons that complement each other; Staff has defense, D/D has burst.

With executioners scythe and chilled to the bone, you can’t stunbreak them. I also don’t think you can dodge Chilled to the Bone, but I’m not entirely sure. I’ll have to test this, unless anyone can confirm?

Edit: You can dodge Chilled to the Bone. But you can’t stunbreak either of the skills.

Serious Thought.5394:

apocom.3172:

alchemyst.2165:

I see it excelling at teamfighting, with its strongpoints being sustainability while keeping good sustained damage, similar to S/D, however from my experience staff has more damage than S/D. The cleave of Vault and Weakening strikes is good for teamfights, and the blind is actually pretty useful in that situation as well.

How on earth do you survive a teamfight? It’s not a damage problem, but you have nearly no defensive utility in this weaponset.

Why are you in a teamfight? Shortbow the rim, engage in 2- fights. 5 people is too much, and will remain too much. That’s the concept.

I should have been more specific, not large team fights, but up to 3v3 fights.

And technically 4 out of the 5 skills on staff have defensive utility; last autoattack chain is a reflect, #2 is weakness, #3 is an evade and immob remove, #4 is a blind.

And I’m in those situations because DD is actually pretty good in them, and the elite skill supports that, finishing off people quickly and taking them out to gain the advantage. Hope that cleared it up.

I think you’re able to record with Open Broadcaster Software (Pretty sure that’s the name) its free but it takes some setting up.

Shinobi.3240:

I know what staff does. All good. ^^
But i still don´t see it on par with D/P.
What does it excel at? Why should i want it?

Evasive Combat? I go S/D. Getting a port, condi cleanse, access to stealth+daze, boon rip and ranged cripple.

Damage and control? I go D/P. Getting a blind field + a ranged blind, two gap closers, access to stealth and an interupt on demand.

I don´t see it. I don´t want to play staff at all right now. And i am a huge fan of stick fighting. Was practicing it myself for years.

Best regards!

Shino

I see it excelling at teamfighting, with its strongpoints being sustainability while keeping good sustained damage, similar to S/D, however from my experience staff has more damage than S/D. The cleave of Vault and Weakening strikes is good for teamfights, and the blind is actually pretty useful in that situation as well.

Serious Thought.5394:

If I wanted to record some gameplay and post it on youtube, what would be good software? Is fraps worth the time? In the mood to show people Daredevil is actually very powerful, I just don’t know how or with what I can upload a video. Anywho, thanks to any answers on that.

If you have an Nvidia graphics card, see if you can get Shadowplay. It’s a very good recording software.

Shinobi.3240:

Couldn´t make Staff work against decent opponents.
If anyone has found a way to make it work, i am listening.
What works best for me so far is
DA-TR-DD with Shortbow and Dagger/Pistol
The damage from pulmonary impact is really good.
Pictures of the build attached. Have fun.

Best regards!

Shinobi

With staff you have to make sure not to waste all your initiative very quickly. Use weakening charge often, though, especially against power builds. It has good damage and gives you a good amount of defense. With staff I recommend running weakening strikes as well for extra defense. Use #3 when you’re in sticky situations or if you need to evade and have nothing else. #4 is good to use when you’re expecting a big attack to come your way and you want to save dodges. You can also get it to double hit. Use vault when you’re confident it will hit, for example after a hook strike or Bandit’s defense, which I honestly recommend running over SR.

Daredevil overall feels much better than last time. A few things I’ve found and realized this beta:

- Vault is hard to land normally, although this could be due to not being used to using it. However I think the range should be increased slightly, at least to 750. Karl said he was looking at the range.
- Autoattack chain is much better, reflect and damage is nice to have especially if you time it correctly. Just an idea, but we could make the third auto chain a block. I mean, it’s not totally ridiculous, considering ranger has evades on their autoattack.
-Bound radius should be increased to 200-240.
-Driven fortitude still needs buffed. Again, I suggest at least 700.
-Brawler’s Tenacity should be buffed to at least 15 endurance gain.
-I don’t see anybody picking Staff Master over EA or even ID. This needs a buff in some way, maybe adding "Staff Attacks also blind (10-15 sec CD?)
-Maybe increase Vault’s radius to 200-240 but then again the increased range could be enough to help land it.
-Fist Flurry needs to be an AoE cone, only last hit is needed to proc palm strike, give it cripple instead of vuln to help it hit.

That’s basically it, good work overall Karl. Appreciate it.

Edit: I also like the new added little twirl on the second autoattack chain, adds a little flare and makes it more fun. Don’t think it was there before but either way I noticed it and it looks cool.

The tooltip is wrong. It’s like a 3-4 second slow I believe, deals 2-4k damage. Pretty cool actually, I like it.

Kocoff.7582:

So what is the decision on Vault?

Does it evade now with 5 initiave?

I’m pretty sure he said it was going down to 5 initiative and 3/4 second cast time.

I don’t really see not having a gap closer as a problem, considering you have other weapons and skills for that.

I also don’t think staff should have a smoke field due to it being a non-stealth weapon/playstyle. Others have suggested having a dark field on it to make it more unique. Here are my suggestions for dust strike:

Make it a wall for 1.5 seconds that destroys projectiles, basically smoke screen but without the field. (Or make it a dark field)

Make it a PBAoE circular blind.

Increase the radius so that it’s a cone and make it destroy projectiles coming your way.

Or keep it this way, I’m fine with having a damaging blind that pierces.

rennlc.7346:

Love this idea. Replace the current Swindler’s Equilibrium with it.

Idk, I wouldn’t want to give up Hard to Catch. But then again idk where else it would go considering I would usually take Pain Response in adept and Don’t Stop as a GM.

I haven’t played all of them but this is just my opinion. (This is from a PvP standpoint)

Very Strong:
1. Chronomancer-Lots of slow, alacrity, continuum split
2. Reaper- Very strong AoE cleave damage, useful in fights
Good:
3.Druid- Haven’t seen what this can do in an actual game yet but I see this as being very good support for teams.
4.Herald- Offers decent support and can keep damage while doing so with Sword/Shield.
5.Scrapper- Looks like decent damage and Gyros look pretty strong
6. Daredevil- Good teamfighter due to AoE cleave and weakness along with elite skill, Good 1v1er due to CC, evades, and damage.
Lackluster:
7. Tempest: While it’s still an ele, shouts don’t look very good and overload doesn’t look that good.
8.Berserker: Actually haven’t seen much of this at all but I’d put it at the same level of Tempest; It’s still a warrior but the Berserker aspect doesn’t seem like something worth taking. Not sure tho, because I haven’t seen any of this really.
9. Dragonhunter: Damage is decent but traps don’t really have much place in PvP, except maybe the elite trap.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

I sincerely appreciate the hard work!

My only concern now is the running animation.

Atm it looks like we’re holding something heavy, like a Hammer when running in combat-mode.

I honestly believe (and so do many others in this thread) the running animation should change, making it look like we’re holding something more light, as a Staff.

Running forward while holding our staff back with one hand is a typical Staff Martial Arts run and would love to see something like that.

Cheers

I second this.

To anyone who needs a visual I think he means something like this:

1. 1200 range

2. Decrease Body Shot initiative to 3, make it sort of like Shortbow 3 where you evade backwards, but less distance than SB 3.

3. Make unload an AoE cleaving cone, or make ricochet baseline for it.

4. Make each unload bullet stack vuln.

5. Buff ankle shots in some way.

I feel like this should go in Acro as to strengthen the line, it could use some good trait ideas like this and could still synergize with S/D. But I love the idea. More interrupt traits for thief!

babazhook.6805:

I really do not think the dodges being locked behind GM traits that big am issue nor do I think we need to count up the total number of traits so as to somehow “prove” a spec line inferior.

As long as the benefits of a dodge are GM trait + worthy it is fine.

Take the simplest example because it easiest to make a direct comparisons. Dont stop is a GM trait in the Acro line and for those that use it not a bad trait at all. it quite good really. It decreases the effects of crippled and chilled by 2/3rds and converts Immob to a chill on a 10 second cooldown.

The New dodge version Unhindered Combat removes Immob removes chiiled removes crippled, provides a long range dash with that evade we used to get from a plain dodge and grants swiftness. There no cooldown outside your supply of endurance.

This is vastly superior to Don’t Stop. Were we to remove all of the benefits but swiftness and the long range dash and then add a GM trait like upper hand to the GM slot we would be no farther ahead even though we can count and get as many traits as other classes.

The other two “dodge” types might need a bit more tinkering but if the all the benefits gleaned from one of these new dodges offers as much as unhindered combat does we are fine and especially if we can get a drop down toggle.

same

Kocoff.7582:

i have been reading all over the place. I am just going to keep my rage until Tuesday.

same

Core thief better get some kitten good improvements.

1. There isn’t anything wrong with 2 traitlines complementing one another. You can choose to run them both or run one of them, the choice is yours. Nobody is forcing it upon you.

2. I’m going to go more in depth as to why you don’t have just one extra dodge per fight. First, you can get more out of things that gain endurance. If you use an energy sigil at 75 endurance, you have 125 endurance, rather than previously only getting 25. Same with signet of agility and other endurance granting skills/traits. Also, let’s say you dodge at 125 endurance and you are left with 75 endurance; you’re closer to your next dodge than you would be with 2 dodges. Since you have more capacity for endurance, you’re able to go over 100, dodge, and still be close to your 2nd dodge. People are looking at this too close-mindedly without thinking about it mechanically.

3. From my experience playing daredevil, it’s not even hard to get to full endurance, even without Brawler’s Tenacity or Vigor. And it’s going to be even better, considering Endurance Thief is getting fixed. The physical heal is also going down in channel time, although not in this beta, so that will improve regen as well.

4. While an extra dodge may not be the most exciting thing in the world, it is unique to the Daredevil and effective, despite what others may say. But I don’t think the traits from Acro and DD need merged; rather Acrobatics needs buffed without overpowering Daredevil when used in unison. Right now, Acrobatics + DD is purely an evasive playstyle. Daredevil with Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes has good sustainability with more damage, and more weakness. Do remember that weakness is a defense as well, and it’s not PURELY dodges. You also have a nice block, and weapon skill evades/blinds. So you don’t have to waste your whole dodge bar at once, which is what I’m assuming a lot of people do, leading to the comments about 50 endurance only being usable at the start of a fight. This goes well with my 2nd point. You can also stunlock people, and save up endurance while you’re killing the opponent.

Edit: In conclusion, 50 extra endurance on paper may not sound that good, but in practical use is pretty good, and you can run Acrobatics with Daredevil but you certainly don’t have to. It has enough sustain on its own.

Well OP does have a point, it’s been kind of a riot here. And this is coming from a thief main. I just say we wait till Tuesday and if things aren’t better then that’s when we have permission to start sacrifices.

Amante.8109:

Daredevil S/D definitely has potential. That said, it merits mentioning that the two builds showing any promise whatsoever use little to none of the new utility skills, and CERTAINLY don’t use the Staff. Daredevil S/D will be bog standard S/D but with Daredevil instead of Deadly Arts. Condi P/D will run Daredevil instead of Shadow Arts and maybe replace one utility skill with Impairing Daggers. Everything else is looking standard or sub-par right now… not exactly a ringing endorsement of how the elite specialization is going to change the profession.

Actually I crafted up a D/D Staff Build for WvW and was wrecking face with stunlocks and damage combos. I was using 3-4 Physical Skills. I even made a video of it lol. I think there are lots of openings for builds, such as S/P, D/D condi, maybe some D/P, or just straight up Staff Short bow.

BTW I think the S/D everyone is talking about actually does use Deadly Arts. It goes DA/Trick/DD I believe. At least, that’s what I saw most people using and that’s what I used myself.

Remember that everyone only had a couple of days to test and theorycraft builds. I’m sure there are going to be lots of cool builds popping up later on in the next beta or after launch. But to sum up my post I think there is a good amount of build potential for DD. Honestly the thing that will keep back some builds from being meta is the weaponset themselves, but some of them do have specific perks that would help them with DD. For example, Dagger Dagger is the only set that can combo very easily with a Daredevil’s CC, making it easy to deal damage. So who knows what’s to come.

Vykoz.7803:

Toker thinks its maybe viable… as i said…he didnt practice it with team or in leagues yet, but he thinks maybe it is and even then, that is definitely not with using staff..My guess is it wont be when they finally get down to it,. but lets say it is.

So we get expansion that brings “maybe” a viable pvp spec, that aint even using the weapon we get in expansion. whooptidoo!!

PvE ppl tested and it did less damage than dagger/dagger(thank god), my guess is it wont be used in meta pve at all, unless some gimicky fight.

Kinda disgusting when you look at what other classes get.

So really it is a pointless and useless specialization as it is now.

Again, have you tried it? From my experience playing Daredevil it’s pretty good, I’ve tested it against basically everything but berserkers (barely seen anything) and it can fare pretty well. It does well in PvP and WvW as a roamer/team fighter/1v1er.

Vykoz.7803:

So expansion will bring a specialization with less dps than what we currently have, aka it wont be used in pve.

One of the best spvp +1 players in the world, think he can “maybe” make it viable in spvp (toker stream) and he is not even using the staff(cause it blows), so yeah it will most likely not be near dagger / pistol + SA and i bet after live and some more testing, it will be viewed as good as sword + dagger currently is, aka wont be viable in spvp.

so why again are we getting this useless specialization?

what an awesome expansion, you guys are so in tune with the players and hit the nail on the head, by bringing the players exactly what they needed/ wanted for the +1 class, just read all the joyfull and cheering comments from my fellow +1’s

Less damage isn’t necessarily true, you can still rack up quite a lot. But I’m not a PVE person, so I wouldn’t know how well it works in PVE.

And Toker stated that he could definitely see S/D Daredevil viable. Have you tried S/D Daredevil? It’s definitely on par with D/P.

The point of this specialization is to become a more sustainable thief with more CC and lockdown. It definitely accomplishes that. Staff needs a bit more but it’s not terrible.

Honestly if they just rolled something in like “You also have X % more endurance regeneration” into Enforcer Training I think that would make people much more happy. People are just upset because they only got a dodge for their mechanic, when others got something like an Avatar Form or Overloads, etc.

Personally I think Daredevil is pretty good, but just needs some improvements in certain areas. For example, Driven Fortitude healing going up in some way or another. Escapist’s Absolution, eh. I’m okay with it being Major, but wouldn’t mind if it was a minor either. I think PI does enough damage, considering it was hitting for 4k on Revenants. Endurance Thief should work like lifesteal: It always gives you 50 endurance and lowers the enemy’s endurance by 50. If they have less than 50 it just goes to 0. Physical heal less channel time (although Karl stated this was going in). Finally just improve the staff animations, speed, and overall flow.

We just all need to be respectful of Karl, he’s actually trying to balance out the class, the other devs just want to give their classes cool stuff, not thinking about balance. If we are respectful on forums, then he’ll want to support us more. See how he hasn’t been posting these past couple of days because of all the rioting that’s been going on? We also haven’t seen the full patch notes. We should see what those have in store for us.

Bllade.1029:

The overall idea here is that DD GM traits only effect them when they dodge. In that 1 second channel time you get the benefit of a GM trait.

What do you get when you’re not dodging from your GM traits? Nothing.

So for you math people out there before enhanced regeneration (Vigor, passive traits..etc.) You get three seconds total to benefit from the “strongest” traits in your specialization, before they go on cool down and you regenerate enough endurance to benefit from them again.

Is that what you want your GM traits to be? Cooldowns?

Or we can very easily remove the Dodges from the GM line and create three new GM traits that would benefit you’re entire style of play; whether you were dodging or not. That is what a GM trait should be and has been until now.

By your logic, a LOT of GM traits are terrible, considering a majority of them only affect a single thing.

For example: Executioner: What do you get when your opponent isn’t below 50%? Nothing.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation: What do you get when you’re not in stealth? Nothing.

Even with other classes.

Evasive arcana follows this logic: What do you get when you’re not dodging? Nothing.

And yet, people still run these traits. Why? Because even though it only affects one thing, it still helps turn the fight in your favor. Just because a GM trait only affects something so short as a dodge doesn’t mean they’re bad.

Nike.2631:

For must professions the optimal time to trigger Superior Sigil of Energy is when you have 50 endurance or less. Any later and you lose some portion of the 50 endurance it grants. The Daredevil has a wider window and more flexibility when to pop it and still gain the full benefit. And that’s assuming it doesn’t actually work as advertised and give you 75 endurance…

^ He explains it the best.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

2. Actually, since the max endurance is increased, you’re not wasting as much endurance-giving traits/skills. For example, if you used signet of agility previously at 50 endurance, you only got 50/100 endurance. Now you have more potential for gaining endurance as well, because at that same level you can get the full amount of endurance. You have to think about that as well.

What you’re missing is that, the larger the endurance bar gets, the longer it will take to refill, thus you might not take SoA but you are forced to take something with Vigor or forced to spec for Brawler’s Tenacity just to refill the bars quickly.

If the Dev didn’t see any problems with this, there will be no traits like BT (endurance refill) and Endurance Thief. The very existence of these traits are red flags that the increase of the endurance bar is a problem already in development and they’re simply massaging it to make it work when it should have been scrapped.

Interesting argument. But I wouldn’t say you’re forced to take something like brawlers tenacity. Of course they’re there to help you out, and support the whole spec’s idea and theme. But I’m getting the vibe that you think 50 extra endurance is a bad thing. I can see why you’d say it’s bad because it takes longer to refill your bar, but it doesn’t always need to be FULL. And as I said before, you’re not restricted as much with the larger endurance gains coming from traits or skills.

Then that’s no different than having 2 bars. In that case, no augmentation to Thief at all. Don’t you see that?

BUT I do see a point in as to that being the only thing we get (50 extra endurance) So it would be nice if we got extra endurance regen, but then again, we already have a LOT of that as daredevil. These are interesting arguments though.

Exactly. What needs to happen is that each endurance bar needs to refill independently so that they can refill at the same time, which gives a lot of value to the 3rd bar.

It’s different from 2 bars because you can have 3 dodges, and get more effect out of certain things that give endurance.

But for the endurance bar suggestion are you speaking of exclusively Daredevil or across all classes?

P.S. I didn’t usually run with BT in beta and still had good success in keeping my endurance up due to minors, vigor (which comes with bountiful theft) dagger AA, etc.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

2. Actually, since the max endurance is increased, you’re not wasting as much endurance-giving traits/skills. For example, if you used signet of agility previously at 50 endurance, you only got 50/100 endurance. Now you have more potential for gaining endurance as well, because at that same level you can get the full amount of endurance. You have to think about that as well.

What you’re missing is that, the larger the endurance bar gets, the longer it will take to refill, thus you might not take SoA but you are forced to take something with Vigor or forced to spec for Brawler’s Tenacity just to refill the bars quickly.

If the Dev didn’t see any problems with this, there will be no traits like BT (endurance refill) and Endurance Thief. The very existence of these traits are red flags that the increase of the endurance bar is a problem already in development and they’re simply massaging it to make it work when it should have been scrapped.

Interesting argument. But I wouldn’t say you’re forced to take something like brawlers tenacity. Of course they’re there to help you out, and support the whole spec’s idea and theme. But I’m getting the vibe that you think 50 extra endurance is a bad thing. I can see why you’d say it’s bad because it takes longer to refill your bar, but it doesn’t always need to be FULL. And as I said before, you’re not restricted as much with the larger endurance gains coming from traits or skills.

BUT I do see a point in as to that being the only thing we get (50 extra endurance) So it would be nice if we got extra endurance regen, but then again, we already have a LOT of that as daredevil. These are interesting arguments though.

Kocoff.7582:

I am might main D/D – Staff. I saw a WvW video of it where the player was really smooth, and there is a good amount of synergy between the two.

I actually thought he was pretty terrible. :P

jk lol But to answer OP’s question I’m gonna run D/D Staff probably. Most definitely in WvW, might not work as well in PvP but I’m gonna theorycraft because you never know. D/D Staff is surprisingly pretty synergetic, because they complement each other.

If I don’t run D/D staff in PvP I’ll probably run S/D Staff, because that’s really good as well.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

Everyone crying about our new “elite spec mechanic” being “locked into a gm trait” is really starting to become annoying. Technically our new mechanic is being able to dodge three times, which is actually pretty big, considering that is something very unique to daredevil. (I wouldn’t be against a regen increase as some suggested, but still.) Our GM’s augment them, which is exactly what a trait should do. Seems like you guys just can’t be pleased.

You’re missing the point.

Taking Necro for example, their Shroud is augmented without taking any GM trait — plus they have access to 5 new weapon skills.

Same goes with the rest of the professions except Thief (not counting Ranger).

Augmenting the endurance bar is crumbs compare to the augmentations the other professions will receive.

This is not even counting the number of new skills they are getting, in my example, Necro is getting 10 new weapon skills. Thief only gets 6 new weapon skills.

Also, toggling dodges in combat would just be too much, too complicated, and somewhat pointless, since most people would just stay in one dodge most of the time.

That would be up to the player. The point is to give the players options on how they want to play their Thief — you on the other hand wants to limit it.

One person has suggested making this toggle-able out of combat, however, which I’m more open to, but I keep my original statement.

Either way is fine.

Besides, chances are this won’t change.

Defeatist attitude never progress, never improves.

Refer to my last reply to Amante for more understanding on my viewpoint.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

So…maybe I’m being a bit hypocritical here, but I don’t think arguing about each other is really helpful as feedback. My impression is that as the discussion about certain opinions became more developed, the arguments became more about destroying the credibility of the poster, rather than the validity of the argument itself. There’s just no need for such hostility towards each other…we’re all just trying to make things better for us.

I agree with this.

Amante.8109

alchemyst.2165:

Besides, chances are this won’t change.

And here we have the cherry on top. Don’t ask for practical improvements, don’t ask for parity in how elite specializations are treated, don’t ask for accountability on the part of developers, because things just won’t change!

Well then, since nothing will change, go ahead and help yourself right out of the thread. The rest of us will continue communicating useful feedback that could actually improve the Daredevil in a meaningful manner.

“The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." – Chinese proverb

1. You’re telling me to be constructive, yet you use your own sarcastic comments in your arguments.

2. Actually, since the max endurance is increased, you’re not wasting as much endurance-giving traits/skills. For example, if you used signet of agility previously at 50 endurance, you only got 50/100 endurance. Now you have more potential for gaining endurance as well, because at that same level you can get the full amount of endurance. You have to think about that as well.

3. Yes, I was addressing those who were saying that there should be a toggled dodge in combat. But I’m trying to give a factual argument as well.

4. I’m all for suggestions, but I’m just trying to give perspective here. Sometimes you have to realize that things might not change. You can try, and sometimes it goes somewhere but sometimes it doesn’t. Yes this is a feedback thread. Does that mean every suggestion will go in? No.

Everyone crying about our new “elite spec mechanic” being “locked into a gm trait” is really starting to become annoying. Technically our new mechanic is being able to dodge three times, which is actually pretty big, considering that is something very unique to daredevil. (I wouldn’t be against a regen increase as some suggested, but still.) Our GM’s augment them, which is exactly what a trait should do. Seems like you guys just can’t be pleased.

Also, toggling dodges in combat would just be too much, too complicated, and somewhat pointless, since most people would just stay in one dodge most of the time. One person has suggested making this toggle-able out of combat, however, which I’m more open to, but I keep my original statement.

Besides, chances are this won’t change.

BrunoBRS.5178:

alchemyst.2165:

Also to the people complaining about SR; I don’t see why you’re running SR in the first place on a Daredevil, you have enough sustain to run without it. I think it’s good that it’s pushing away from stealth, considering the whole point of Daredevil’s sustain is centered around evasion. Doesn’t make sense for you to have much stealth, plus revealed is being tossed around like candy to other classes. Just saying you’re gonna have a hard time trying to force running SR.

i don’t agree with the complaints, but i felt the need to address why people would be running SR with daredevil:

shadow refuge is simply the strongest skill the thief has in the whole game. it’s not just a skill to get long stealths, it’s a powerful disengage tool, a panic button, a self rez skill, an anti-stomp skill that rezzes at the same time, a powerful group opener… it’s everything. it’s got so much support and utility that it would be preposterous to not bring shadow refuge in any competitive scenario. no other utility skill can compete with it. hell, they could make SR an elite skill and it would fit right in, while still being picked over anything else the thief has to offer. it’s not brought up because you’re in a stealth build. stealth builds don’t use SR to get stealth, they have access to it through other means. SR is brought for… well, everything else i said.

oh yeah, and it can be used from a pretty decent range on a fairly low cast time.

Yeah I can see why you’re saying that, I just don’t think you need it with daredevil because with daredevil, I feel like your role can change quite a bit. You can be more of a 1v1er/bruiser, and while SR helps in team fights, I just don’t feel like that’s really your job any more as a daredevil, you know? I mean you can certainly run it, but I took signet of agility over it and had great success. It’s still support and helps out a lot. I think people just don’t want to step out of their comfort zone with thief, because I really do think your role can change with this traitline.

Idk just my thoughts. Would love to hear some more thoughts about this.

Arlowslol.1974:

PopeUrban.2578:

Arlowslol.1974:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack->run away->run back->attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack->dodge around target->attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Then dash isn’t a good choice for your build. That’s why dash isn’t the only option. Dash is a mobility dodge to rapidly move between targets or kite with. if you want to stick with a target , run lotus to cripple them and make your job easier, or bound for increased damage.

It’s actually great in the game for the purpose it’s designed for, moving around well in team fights or for ranged pistol builds.

I choose dash for condi cleans and swiftness.

why the new dodge is worst than the old ones?

the 150 distance for dodge is just a joke, we have swiftnesss for the

mobility, extra distance is trash for every thing. have you play daredevill before ?

or you guys just doesnt play SPVP?

…wut? lol

Arlowslol.1974:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack->run away->run back->attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack->dodge around target->attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Then run Bound…lol.

The point of Dash is for mobility, if you don’t like moving away from your targets then run the dodge that deals damage and is more focused on staying near the target.

Also to the people complaining about SR; I don’t see why you’re running SR in the first place on a Daredevil, you have enough sustain to run without it. I think it’s good that it’s pushing away from stealth, considering the whole point of Daredevil’s sustain is centered around evasion. Doesn’t make sense for you to have much stealth, plus revealed is being tossed around like candy to other classes. Just saying you’re gonna have a hard time trying to force running SR.

I don’t see why everyone is classifying Daredevil as “monk-like.” Monks are peaceful, calm-minded and nonviolent. The daredevil is the exact opposite, reckless, tough, and violent. The only similarity between them is that they use a staff.

I mean I guess everyone is just hyped because of Monks from GW1? (I didn’t play GW1 so.) But logically speaking the daredevil is the exact opposite of a monk.

sry I had to say it ;-;

You do realize you can just turn off AA?

S/D Daredevil is extremely good. If you play it correctly you can be pretty unstoppable. Has a lot of utility with good sustained dmg and some burst. Also has nice defenses. I can definitely see it becoming a meta build for a bruiser/1v1er thief. (Granted, 1v1er is what a thief was intended to be in the first place, but I’m just happy that theyre at least giving us something good now.)

Aenesthesia.1697:

alchemyst.2165:

So nerf thief more even though it’s the worst class in the game atm, and not let the QQers learn that they need to learn how to play against a class that stealths, which would be bettering the community and creating smarter players?

Lol, worst class? You have unparalelled mobility, burst and can control 1on1s at will (engaging/disengaging). The only downside is you are squishy.

Kitten, the reason cele is meta in pvp is thieves and burn guards and shatter mesmers. You are forcing all other professions to be tanky just to survive your initial burst out of nowhere.

And you still think thieves are up?

The problem seems to be you dont like playing a glasscannon, i’d suggest you roll a warrior then…

Disclosure: i am by no means asking for a nerf. Just stating that thieves are not that bad either….

Hate to break it to you, but our burst has been nerfed over and over again, to the point where other classes do what we were meant to do much better. For example, S/F ele and Glass Mesmers. The only things we can kill 1v1 now are other thieves and players with much lower skill than our own, even though we were actually meant to be the kings of 1v1s. Our only strongpoint atm is our mobility, which is the ONLY true reason why you still see us. I don’t think you’ve actually given the time to play a thief given the situation they’re in atm. It really is the bottom class. You COULD argue ranger, but ranger has much more than thief, which is why it’s at the bottom.

I think 15 seconds is appropriate.

kash.9213:

The ‘fix’ posted today for the dodges sound like a practical change. I do a jump dodge the way my keys are bound and I’ve gotten used to that not only for dodging but for moving and positioning in general and I’d like to keep that dodge mechanic. Unless, I can do the flip into the air but finish off the descent with a quick shadow step/blink.

“fix?’ Where is this “fix”?

Edit: nvm, didn’t realize there was a dulfy post.

So nerf thief more even though it’s the worst class in the game atm, and not let the QQers learn that they need to learn how to play against a class that stealths, which would be bettering the community and creating smarter players?

evilapprentice.6379:

Kocoff.7582:

I am going to side with Alchemyst here OP. Althought your suggestion is just as reasonable, I believe the true purpose of this skill is actually setup, a bait to be more precise.

They should have renamed it “Bandit’s Bait”. Now I did not pay sufficient attention during BWE to see if Bandit’s defense successfully interrupts Warrior’s GS#3, because GS#3 also acts like an evade.

I don’t think Thieves should see it as an Interrupt, simply because it’s not. Every 8-10 seconds, this skill give you the opportunity to burst your target down/ or recuperate those precious seconds for your next Withdraw.

Bandit’s Defense is pure a bait, reversal mechanism, not in any way an interrupt. Like, you don’t run away with 1k hp hoping the skill will save your skin. Again, I still think adding the evade you suggested is reasonable, but it is certainly not necessary.

I vote we drop the OP/Alchemyst debate and focus on what Maug brought up.

Regardless of the intent of the skill, in its current form its much too easily triggered by AI/Random attacks in big team fights, making both the Block and Setup portion of the skill unreliable.

Since Anet has clearly designed DD to be a “team fighter”, we should be asking Anet to design the skill as Maug described earlier in the post.

A good fix to that issue would be having the kick only hit the person you’re targeting, if you’re targeting someone (regardless of whoever procced it). If you’re not targeting anybody, then have it hit the person that procced it.

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

facepalm do I have to explain myself again? I said, while it CAN be used as an interrupt, that is not its ONLY purpose, and if you are using it PURELY for interrupts, you’re doing something wrong. It has multiple abilities. And if you really want to use it for interrupts, I already told you what you could do to help you get them off easier. And I’m pretty sure it’s not a design flaw. It’s a window so people MIGHT have a time to react. An instant unavoidable knockdown stun break every 10 seconds is kittening insane. The cast time is there so a player can go “hold up my skill is about to hit his block, better dodge”. It’s not big, but it’s some counterplay for those very observant players. And just because there’s counterplay doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s still definitely a very good skill, as I’ve stated before.

How “observant” do you have to be to whirl towards someone with a multi-hit attack?

The block is only ONE second long, bandits defense IS the counter-play, not something that just gets thrown up for OTHER people to figure out how to counter. (You want to counter play a 1 second block? ok, sneeze, snap your fingers, do literally anything that kills one second. There, the block’s time has expired, continue application of spam.)

And nobody here said the kick needed to be “unavoidable” but getting wrecked by the skill that you a specifically using bandits defense to counter make this skill useless for its intended purpose.

I have no idea why you can’t see the design intent here.

Okay since you obviously don’t understand I’m just gonna leave it here.

Btw its 1.5 seconds, the tooltip is wrong.

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

facepalm do I have to explain myself again? I said, while it CAN be used as an interrupt, that is not its ONLY purpose, and if you are using it PURELY for interrupts, you’re doing something wrong. It has multiple abilities. And if you really want to use it for interrupts, I already told you what you could do to help you get them off easier. And I’m pretty sure it’s not a design flaw. It’s a window so people MIGHT have a time to react. An instant unavoidable knockdown stun break every 10 seconds is kittening insane. The cast time is there so a player can go “hold up my skill is about to hit his block, better dodge”. It’s not big, but it’s some counterplay for those very observant players. And just because there’s counterplay doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s still definitely a very good skill, as I’ve stated before.

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.