What people think vault is: insanely high burst damage heat seeking full-frame evade huge radius unstoppable quick easy AoE spam skill
What vault actually is: Easy to read, interruptable, hard to control moderate damage modest radius spendy skill
Good staff thieves rotate between autos, staff 3, staff 4 and bound usually, with vault being situational.
Just stow it first then use whatever skill you want
On this build the only condi application you have is dodge and maybe steal if traited. S/D has no synergy with condi (other than dancing dagger), the only skills that will be useful are 3 and 4. At that point, considering there’s probably going to be little to no direct damage output, all you have to worry about is cleansing properly. Do not cleanse after getting a few condis on you. Instead, be patient and wait for the initial burst to be over, then cleanse. At this point they’re annoying at worst.
Wait, people are actually afraid of this build?
I like the setups and overall skill use. IMO this is how deadeye should be played, good showcase. It seemed everytime I built up a 1-shot, it was either randomly dodged, or blocked, and a few ‘out of range’ that didn’t land – but the subsequent auto attack did… ya figure that one out.
I would’ve allocated more time to playing DE if it werent for the fact I actually WANT tickets, pips, rank, etc… for my live account. It was fun playing DE in WvW until I hit platinum chest on my beta toon…
Thanks, yeah triple fire and auto attack are usually better to use than Deaths judgement, and deaths judgement is honestly better out of stealth because they usually only look for it when you’re in stealth. When you pop out like that they expect it to come. But it’s very nice when it lands.
Sorry if the editing is bad on this one i just wanted to get a video done quickly and out of the way so i can get rid of clips lol
Overall deadeye is fun but pretty gimmicky, Daredevil is personally more my style. But I can still see deadeye being used.
There are not enough words to describe how clunky Kneel feels. WASD needs to get you out of it for starters.
The problem with that is you wouldn’t be able to dodge in any direction other than backwards without going out of kneel and wasting initiative.
One of the main problems is that you cant un-kneel during a kneel skill, which makes it feel clunky going out since you cant move until after the skill is over. A decent step in the right direction would be changing it so that after the skill has started you can un-kneel. Basically making it so that going out of kneel doesn’t require you to be doing nothing for it to work.
Thoughts so far:
-Mark should last for at least 30 seconds, 25 feels a bit low considering malice disappears after this time
-Kneel feels clunky, either make it instant or at least 1/4 second cast time going into it.
-#4 on Rifle (out of kneel) shouldn’t stop you from moving, it feels weird when casting it at times especially considering its a mobility skill
- shadow flare should get 1 condi removed on swap, and/or duration increased slightly. the usability of the swap is kinda low because of the fact that the duration is so short. A small increase in duration would be nice (balance the damage around this if you have to)
Overall I think the deadeye does what its meant to do pretty well. Does high damage when you play well but is very easy to lock down and melt. Great in PvP/group fights
Edit: I also think you should be able to un-kneel during a kneel skill animation, right now it locks you in place if you try to un-kneel during a kneel skill and it feels clunky getting out.
(edited by alchemyst.2165)
CS has been crap for pvp/wvw so idk what all the fuss over losing a few might is about unless you run a one-shot build that will be brought back with deadeye
Actually the whole theme of thief is that it can’t defend while being offensive. Other classes can tank WHILE getting in your face and attacking and not really have to worry about it. Evading puts a pause on a thief’s offense, which is why we have to be bursty thematically to balance it out. The only skills that technically deal damage WHILE evading are pistol whip, death blossom, and impaling lotus. Everything else is punishable (yes, even bound).
But since we’re talking about evade skills, thieves literally need skills like these due to their conceptual nature; otherwise there wouldn’t be any damage output. Watch a thief try to run up to you and deal damage without evading, then proceed to kill them.
What’s the actual problem? All you’re saying is that D/P can evade more, which, considering D/P has no evade skills, isn’t true.
It seems like it will be very annoying in WvW and low-level PvP.
Kneel mode will most likely only be good in short bursts/openers. I like that there are two different “modes” to rifle, there the Run and Gun type playstyle and then theres the sniper playstyle.
I’m thinking Acro/TR/DE will be good for mobility and survivability while running and gunning (more of a shotgun playstyle) while DA or SA instead of Acro will be more oriented toward the burst/sniper playstyle.
Punish/kite the death blossom and profit
Honestly I think Improv encourages build diversity.
I don’t know why anyone would want to run so many utilities of the same type anyway, a good, balanced build usually has a few different skill categories. It’s just silly to me when some people will run something like 5 tricks and then say “Improv is bad”. It’s a risk/reward thing. The more utilities of the same type you run, the higher the risk is, but the higher the reward is. Diverse utilities will yield more mellow but reliable results, and that’s the point of the trait.
Not to mention there’s a second part to the trait (two steal skills) which can be utilized universally.
Thieves even more stupidly OP after the recent needs to other classes sustain. That and combined with sigil of absorption it’s gg.
Such a broken class.
Thief sustain and damage literally got nerfed tho
reading is a great skill
People are so quick to cry whenever there is change. Notice how thief wasn’t the only class nerfed. Pretty much everything is getting normalized which is much more healthy for PvP (i wish the changes applied to WvW as well, but we have to start somewhere ig). The only big thing is that DH counters thief even more now, which i don’t understand. The shortbow changes are also interesting.
3 and 4 as well as bound, apply pressure with autoattacks until you need to get back out with an evade. You can get back into close range with a 2 combined with steal which bursts for quite a bit as well as applies weakness. But yes, 3 and 4 are going to be your main tools as well as bound and autos of course.
The idea is to punish with your 3’s and, seldom, vault. Use 4 for covering yourself while you get back into close range to pressure, or use 2 like I described above. Wear the opponent down over time while watching for your opponent’s skills and punishing with 3 or getting out with bound/vault.
Fantastic, thanks for the help. So, use 4’s only when at range to help get into close range because of the blind, use 3 and the auto attack all the time, rarely use vault, and only use 2 when combined with steal for a burst?
Essentially. auto attacking should be your default state; the rest is in reaction to your opponent. You can use 4 at close range but usually at that point you don’t really need to, if you’re in close range you should be able to take whatever is coming at you.
Another thing: use bound to dodge if you’re unsure your 3 will evade it all; bound is a stronger defense than staff 3. just remember that. Other than that it’s just having mechanical skill and strong reactions.
3 and 4 as well as bound, apply pressure with autoattacks until you need to get back out with an evade. You can get back into close range with a 2 combined with steal which bursts for quite a bit as well as applies weakness. But yes, 3 and 4 are going to be your main tools as well as bound and autos of course.
The idea is to punish with your 3’s and, seldom, vault. Use 4 for covering yourself while you get back into close range to pressure, or use 2 like I described above. Wear the opponent down over time while watching for your opponent’s skills and punishing with 3 or getting out with bound/vault.
(edited by alchemyst.2165)
It’s probably either going to be overpowered or underpowered. Balancing a long range, presumably burst weapon when there is stealth and mobility is difficult. However, as long as they make it squishy enough, and have enough kite tools while having 1 or two decent burst skills I think it will be okay.
In most games the rogue/assassin/thief type class is always complained about due to it being annoying. People think this translates into OP. I mean, anything I can’t always hit must be OP right? I can hit other classes but not this one, so it must be OP.
The tradeoff is that thieves are squishy. It’s a class that I like fighting against because I am rewarded for playing smart against them. A nice stun in between death blossoms usually does the trick. But people would rather complain about it being OP than learn to play against active defense.
1. Bait dodges. This can be done with most skills by cancelling them and making them waste a dodge. You can also cancel a minor skill then cut the evade with another skill, such as baiting with a skull crack, cancelling it, then headbutt or shieldbash to cut their evade.
2. Wait out their dodges. Bad thieves will spam their dodges, not use them on reaction. The thing to do here is to just not attack them and let them waste their dodges. If you do attack, make it an attack that won’t be punishing for you if you waste it, like an auto.
3. Be patient. People usually tilt when fighting thieves, making it more difficult.
I’ve yet to see a legitimate, logical argument for thief being op. Not denying they’re strong, but not op. And I find it funny that one of the only classes that heavily utilizes active defense in this game is one people say is OP, when there are classes that can facetank while dealing heavy damage. (No, thief can’t do damage while dodging excluding pistol whip. Pretty much every evade skill has a counter.)
I never said I wanted to play a different role, I said the class needs to have a defined role in the first place.
Then I provided examples to you of what a role is.
To repeat myself for the last time, standing on a point and decapping it is not a role, it is an action. I can decap a point and 1v1 on a warrior. Refer to the previous post. And that being said, neither WvW or PVE have anything to decap.
You never mentioned a game mode so i just gave all of them.
As far as a role goes, saying decapping isn’t a role is like saying being a healer isn’t a role (“healing isn’t a role, it’s an action”) It literally is one of the thief’s main roles. Yes, you can decap on a warrior, just like you can “heal” on an engi, but that doesn’t mean that’s its best role. Thief is the best at filling that role. You’re making it sound like a thief has nothing to offer to a team, which simply isn’t true.
If thief could actually teleport 2400, land the damage and port back again at this point in the game, there would be no reason for the suggestion.
The point is that thieves are having an incredible difficult time landing any of their DPS.
You can trait and gear for max dps, and entire burst might only net you 3? 4k? damage after passive and active procs, armor rating etc.
And for alchemist, you listed possible builds, not a role. Nearly any class can fight/roam/decap/sustain etc. Those are not roles, anyone can swing a weapon.
Here is an example of a Role:
The class that provides healing to everyone.
The class that specializes in long range dps
The class that provides AoE spam
The class that specializes in effectively tearing down bunkers (see Tracer in Overwatch as a prime example)
If you want to play a different role, play a different class. Thieves excel at decapping, bursting, and, depending on the person and build, 1v1ing if played correctly. You’re not gonna get a heal support build on a class meant for high damage and evasion.
PvP:
Staff/SB: Decapper, teamfighter, decent 1v1 ability
Staff/DP: Decent Decap ability, teamfighter, great 1v1 ability
DP Pulm: Decapper, Ganker, High Burst
WvW:
Signet 1 Shot: Ganker, Target-Sniper in zergs, Very High Burst
DP Pulm: Ganker, Roamer, High Burst
Staff/DP: Great 1v1er, Roamer, Sustain
DP Bound: Great Burst, Decent 1v1er, Roamer
Venom Share: Team Support, Condi, Stealth
PvE: Self-Explanatory
We already have several roles tho (depending on game mode)
Wow people are asking for anything to be nerfed these days.
The whole point of these skills is for them to be hard to react to and combo’d with other skills as well as add mobility. Eg: Ele lightning flash allows for more playstyle options such as burning speed or phoenix into lightning flash. As far as countering that goes, you can engage in proactive play: looking at how the opponent is acting and predicting accordingly.
Wait, people think d/d condi is op?
So basically Bandit’s Defense.
I never said it was a learn to play issue, and I did read your posts. I’m just saying it seems like you’re taking coincidence and making it seem like a bug is all. But yes, if you want to hit a target you have to hit them while facing them. Maybe it is a bug, but it just doesn’t look like that with what you’re displaying.
Here’s an example of what I mean: Let’s say I’m trying to cloak off of a mob. (These aren’t actual numbers, just numbers for demonstration) I can hit them when I’m facing 40 degrees away from them at a certain distance, but at 41 degrees I won’t be able to at that distance. It’s little differences like that that seem to be causing this issue for you, because in a lot of those clips you’re either turned almost adjacent to the target or positioned past the target. The hitbox of the skill doesn’t reach behind you. Since you already position yourself like that, you’re bound to get a few instances where you miss from extending too far. That’s what I’m trying to get at.
Yes. Just because you might be able to get a turning CnD one time doesn’t mean it will always connect other times; there are minor changes in where you are positioned and angled in every attack you do, it’s bound to have certain differences. CnD doesn’t have an infinite hitbox, no melee attack does. We notice it more with CnD because:
1. A lot of us like to turn to some degree when we’re doing it
2. It’s an attack we care more about as opposed to auto attack, so we notice it more
3. It’s very hard to get into close melee range, and again, we notice it more with CnD because it’s a more valuable skill.Did you see that there’s 2 circular CnD in that video? And read what I wrote to that? It used to miss but was recently ‘fixed’.
Your points 1-3 are nice but I don’t really see the connection to me or to the issue of missed CnD and also that I used to miss every moving mob/player in the past 2 years but now just occassionally do (read the TL;DR). Have been in wvw only few times since,
constantly missed a mesmer who probably was lagging, in some other small scale fights my CnD seemed to be ok.
Again, there are micro-differences in each CnD. You’re not gonna be in the exact place each “circular” CnD. Some of them will miss.
Connection and latency changes throughout the game. Hitboxes might become better or worse. There are lots of variables. If anything, this is a game-wide issue, not just a CnD issue. Going back to my second point, you notice it more because it’s an important skill. If you’re missing autoattacks you don’t notice it as much, as opposed to shadowshot’s melee portion, where this exact same thing happens.
My understanding (and I’m happy to be corrected) is that +/- is based on team avg mmr.
What is hurting the most currently is the too large mmr range of players on each team. I’ve played matches this season where the range has been t3 Gold to t1 Bronze.
I’m not entirely sure either, but it doesn’t seem like it. I’d love to have confirmation. Even if it already takes team average mmr, getting +5 for a win and -20 for a loss is still insane.
I agree, the range of players is also hurting the experience as well. It contributes to the “a few players ruin the game for the rest of the team” experience.
Playing 5 games in a row, getting +4 or +5 for each one and getting lucky.
Losing 3 games in a row due to DC’ers dcing multiple times and not coming back, kittenty teammates (gold players on my team as a plat, poor matchmaking) and just general bs, -15 to -20 for each one.
Proposal: Make the system take into account your teammates. A platinum player shouldn’t be losing -17 when they have gold players on their team. The current system only takes into account you vs the other team, which makes no sense considering you’re on a team with 4 other players. It creates incredibly frustrating and counterproductive play. No idea why this wasn’t implemented in the first place.
These seem to be caused by either being past the target or not facing them.
The two bugs which are pictured above?
Yes. Just because you might be able to get a turning CnD one time doesn’t mean it will always connect other times; there are minor changes in where you are positioned and angled in every attack you do, it’s bound to have certain differences. CnD doesn’t have an infinite hitbox, no melee attack does. We notice it more with CnD because:
1. A lot of us like to turn to some degree when we’re doing it
2. It’s an attack we care more about as opposed to auto attack, so we notice it more
3. It’s very hard to get into close melee range, and again, we notice it more with CnD because it’s a more valuable skill.
These seem to be caused by either being past the target or not facing them.
Especially considering you get something like -20 when your teammates are garbage and not carryable. The system needs changed.
I’d honestly prefer the signet change in PvP to also be applied to WvW just for consistency, which would technically be a nerf to the signet in WvW, but whatever. At the moment 2 dodges and 3 condi clears is a bit much (albeit, it’s WvW where pretty much any build can become op) so I wouldn’t really care if it got brought down to 1 dodge.
You thinking that vault is the thing that makes staff good gives me all I need to know.
Evasion is a thief’s only defense along with stealth and mobility, technically. Other classes have their defenses more spread out. The reason people see thief as a problem is because their defense is condensed, making it seem like “spam”, when honestly without this defense there’s really nothing for sustain at all on thief.
As far as damage goes, it’s not technically while evading, the only skill that technically does damage WHILE evading is staff 3, which can be punished pretty easily like death blossom. Bound can be kited or interrupted with good timing, and vault is insanely easy to just walk away from, interrupt, or dodge. Dealing with a thief’s offense is just something you have to practice like anything else.
I play this build (acro/trick/dd) the most out of all builds. You are correct that it is relatively easy to dodge vault and bound. However, it is not “insanely easy” to interrupt vault, nor is it simply…easy. Interrupting Bound is nearly impossible to do so intentionally, and interrupting Vault, while possible to do intentionally, is still pretty difficult. And doing so multiple times in a fight is even more rare.
I beg to differ. If you consistently try, interrupting vault becomes pretty mundane, and if you’re not interrupting it you can very easily dodge it, or just kite it, so a lot of times you don’t necessarily need to.
This is how to cut bound. Cutting just a bound has become second nature after consistently doing it. Not too hard once you practice it for a while. Also helps when playing alts and fighting thieves, or any class really; it allows you to interrupt people in a frame where the opponent literally can’t do anything to counter it; essentially, if you know how to cut evades, whenever the enemy evades it’s a free CC.
You thinking that vault is the thing that makes staff good gives me all I need to know.
Evasion is a thief’s only defense along with stealth and mobility, technically. Other classes have their defenses more spread out. The reason people see thief as a problem is because their defense is condensed, making it seem like “spam”, when honestly without this defense there’s really nothing for sustain at all on thief.
As far as damage goes, it’s not technically while evading, the only skill that technically does damage WHILE evading is staff 3, which can be punished pretty easily like death blossom. Bound can be kited or interrupted with good timing, and vault is insanely easy to just walk away from, interrupt, or dodge. Dealing with a thief’s offense is just something you have to practice like anything else.
It’s already a very strong skill. I don’t think thief really needs buffed any more at the moment, other than of course increasing build diversity which is true for every class.
@ OP:
Because bad thieves are relatively easy to spot, there’s this stereotype formed that thieves either make or break your team, which is true to an extent, but it’s honestly true for any class. It’s just because there is a broad skill gap between bad and good thieves, so people tend to exaggerate and just say that a thief is bad as an excuse for their team losing, even when they’re not necessarily the problem. It’s just easier to blame a thief because of this stereotype.
Marauder is still better, especially considering you’re a thief whose main defense is not getting hit in the first place; that’s your best method of avoiding damage. Vitality will help you with both defense against condis and defense against power.
Wait, people lose to ghost thieves?
Well no, but they usually interrupt my bi-weekly sun-tanning sessions in WvW and that’s annoying.
@OpLickEm, Yes.
Annoying doesn’t automatically warrant a nerf. I think FA eles are annoying to fight, but that doesn’t mean they’re op in any way.
No. A bit of extra toughness isn’t worth losing that much health, which boosts your defense against both power builds and condition builds.
Wait, people lose to ghost thieves?
So what you’re saying is, if you play the build well, you should win.
Makes sense to me.
But I haven’t really experienced the other issues you’ve stated. When I’m on a class that I know at least decently I can kill guildies using acro staff with it. Honestly it’s just based on mechanical skill and knowledge of the thief; you don’t need to be amazing at the class you’re playing.
how can you say that? acro/DD staff is just as lame as condi D/D thief…if not worse, it rely on rotating staff #3bound #3#3 bound #4 and the odd #5 staff. you have d/p as 2nd set for even more easy mode. you also have traits proc inative and other effects if you randomly evade an attack (I am talk about the out numbered bits here, opfc you are going to be fueled)
Well condi d/d is pretty gimmicky and isn’t hard to fight imo, but with acro staff the thing that people don’t get is that you’re not supposed to attack very often, and when you do, you need to bait out their dodges.
When fighting a good staff thief, a lot of them will bound then staff 3. This is a frame tight evade, meaning you cant interrupt between them, however, staff 3 has a clear window after the roll that you can hit them. It just takes focus to fight an evade thief, and it’s a learning process. I can make a video of me on an alt fighting a guildie if you’d like.
in that case good thieves will just exploit staff 3 + jump so people will not notice the dodge animation.
it seems that the whole fear guild is defending this build for some reason maybe it’s the 1v1 god potential…. anyway i’d like to hear how to counter staff 3 jump spam along with bounds, and please don’t say “don’t attack” lul.
Don’t take this as personal, there are really good thieves using acro staff and one can’t deny that but this build hurts the game and more importantly creates bad atmosphere for players.
If all a thief was doing was bound -> staff 3, they’d quickly run out of initiative, assuming you didn’t hit them after the staff 3, which is a fairly easy frame to hit. As for staff 3 jump spam, assuming you’re not a thief, it depends on the class. Depending on what your main defense is, IE damage reduction, healing, blocks, you can take a few hits of it. You usually won’t need to try and avoid the whole thing. Kiting and not overreacting to a staff thief is key.
Let me give an example. If I’m playing a warrior and I’m fighting a staff thief, I don’t have to try and dodge every single bound. That’s what a good thief will exploit. As a warrior I could GS 3 away, block with mace 2, time a shield bash or daze so it hits between staff 3’s, kite it, or just tank the whole thing and wait for them to run out of resources. Play smart and calmly.
A lot of the reason people complain, and even complain about it being op, is that a lot of what makes the build good is that it causes players to tilt and overreact to its offense.
One thing I would agree with is a slight damage nerf to staff 3, however. You do make a good point about it being very strong vs sb 3.
dodges have frames that you can interrupt
Dodges have frames that you can interrupt on thief, because thief has the easiest to use lowest skilled, most forgiving, interrupts in the game that are ranged, instant (or nearly instant for some) and are plentiful on something like d/p thief, on some classes/builds it is literally impossible to interrupt in a specific point of a frame other than getting lucky.
Really? I’ve found it pretty easy to use skills like headbutt on other thieves. It just takes practice.
You are right though, it is much easier to do on thief.
how can you say that? acro/DD staff is just as lame as condi D/D thief…if not worse, it rely on rotating staff #3bound #3#3 bound #4 and the odd #5 staff. you have d/p as 2nd set for even more easy mode. you also have traits proc inative and other effects if you randomly evade an attack (I am talk about the out numbered bits here, opfc you are going to be fueled)
Well condi d/d is pretty gimmicky and isn’t hard to fight imo, but with acro staff the thing that people don’t get is that you’re not supposed to attack very often, and when you do, you need to bait out their dodges.
When fighting a good staff thief, a lot of them will bound then staff 3. This is a frame tight evade, meaning you cant interrupt between them, however, staff 3 has a clear window after the roll that you can hit them. It just takes focus to fight an evade thief, and it’s a learning process. I can make a video of me on an alt fighting a guildie if you’d like.
while the gameplay is good, i can’t dodge the fact that the design flaws in doing major damage while negating damage is hurting the game in every aspect.
The video is gr8, i still cant enjoy it due to the above mentioned aspect.I hope one day ANet gonna employ people who are capable and willing to develop this diverse game in its every aspect.
Without context, I would agree, however, relatively speaking it’s pretty much needed. And it’s not necessarily doing damage while negating damage; dodges have frames that you can interrupt, and you can walk away/kite away from bound. The reason it’s so effective is because people don’t realize that to counter it, you have to change up your gameplay choices. With other classes, you always have a definitive answer. If a warrior endure pains, you can apply condi. If a guardian blocks, use unblockable. The thief is different in the sense that its defense is mostly based on active defense, unlike other classes. Everything during a fight with a thief, both for and against it, is based on simply your mechanical gameplay choices.
And thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it
like and subscribe or don’t ur choice really
The fact that you can’t cancel vault any more makes no difference in thief vs thief. The only thing this affects is mobility while out of combat. Not sure what the big deal is. Sure, it’s annoying, but it really has no effect on any combat.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.