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Uh, this is an mmo…. it is suppose to attract the most people possible and be as balanced as possible in my humble opinion. Sheesh, you’d think those who are against this thread could at least be a bit more friendly rather than browbeating us.
*spoiler* the TRUE culprit behind Scarlet
in Battle for Lion’s Arch - Aftermath
Posted by: bullyrook.2165
obviously……….
Jory? Ministry Guard, Necro, mysterious benefactors…. hard to say where she actually stands in moral alignment.
lol good idea, sort of…
I might be putting my very manly apron on to have a go at these myself!
Doesn’t need to be a manly apron, just need to channel some Alton Brown.
My apron becomes manly when I put it on.
I would personally say that cutting someone’s skin off and wearing it seems much more brutal to me, but the honest point is that neither side is good. Both sides of done shameful things for their own greater good.
Eww, need some salt and pepper for that flank?
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
Humans were known to wear the skins of charr as armor…
How would you feel if you saw a charr wearing a human hide armor?
Eating someone is a bit more brutal. The native Americans scalped their enemies at times
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
Vanguard, I believe Braham’s girlfriend, Ottilia, left him for a merchant. I believe that’s part of the reason Braham is now trying to create his legacy. Ottilia accused him of being content to live and die in craigstead and left as a result.
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Its a good idea
Braham has enough Bro to be two and a half men.
I’m not too worried.
True, but that is still 2 to 4. Just saying :P
sigh the only thing that Scarlet took into that device were things from her own mind.
Hmm how would you like to see values such as my own presented in a different game?
Well without making too many assumptions about your exact position (since I’m still waiting for an explanation on what your exact position is, and more importantly, why). I can imagine a setting for a game, in which an arranged marriage to someone of the opposite sex is expected, due to social conventions. Imagine a sort of game of thrones like setting, where those of nobility are expected to produce an heir, yet are of a different persuasion than what is accepted in their society, which leads to disagreements among fellow nobility (game of thrones touched upon this subject in regards to King Rhenly, if you’re familiar with the show). I’m fine with your kind of position being represented in such a way in a videogame or any other medium. Because there’s a valid reason why nobility would disapprove of it.
Ah, so you suspect that my view springs from an inherent social norm and/or religion. Well, with that in mind, let me show you otherwise. If you are an atheist, it is likely that you do not believe that my morality was given by a deity, but was instead a self-generated inspiration created by long deceased ancestors. If my views were created by some long-dead ancestor (hypothetically speaking) then my disagreement with you is likely rooted to their predispositions and theories that they arrived at with no outside influence. If the sentient creatures of Tyria are anything like ourselves, it is likely that the civil and just populous arrived at similar conclusions with or without the aid of supernatural beings and currently are in as much a disagreement as you and I over this subject. Now, let’s see how this would break down by Tyrian races.
Sylvari: I doubt any would care, if they did, it would be few and far between with most not even understanding why we disagree. However, there are those few deviant Sylvari that go against the flow and may agree with me, but this would be like .000001% of their civil population, if that. Unless, of course, the Sylvari have been misrepresented up until this point and there are specifically "heterosexual"as well as specifically “homosexual”, instead of all being pansexual. But that is another discussion.
Asura: Most would be too busy with work to discuss social issues, and would hurl comments like “bookah” at the both of us for wasting their time. However, if a Asura was working with genetics, he/she may take a view such as my own. And then he would invariably get blown up or eaten by one of his experiments.
Norn: The Norn are likely to advocate heterosexuality so that their young may carry on their legacy, that is what they are all about, to them nothing else make sense. That said they are drunk half the time and “slips” in this stance happen from time to time. Mostly, they wouldn’t understand your views, but they wouldn’t give you grief over it either.
Charr: Eh, it is hard to say with the Charr. Rox sounded hesitant to ask Kas and Jory about their exact relationship. But they don’t hold our standards of family, so they likely wouldn’t see the big deal. I’d say they would likely fire a cannon at me for implying anything that resembles a belief system or a morality more complex than “follow your orders”.
Human: Same positions as you and me. Accepting, but not always “comfortable or approving” with the subject.
Back on subject, I just didn’t appreciate the attempt to romanticize Kas and Jory’s relationship and make it so central to the story. If I offended anyone, it was not my intent. Please, step into my shoes on this matter.
No, the core question is “why must I agree and/or support you?”
Hang on, lets not keep dancing around the questions like this. I did ask you a question. As I stated, I don’t see anything right OR wrong about this issue. People just are the way they are.
But you are suggesting that there’s something not right about it. So please explain why you feel that way. Don’t deflect the question please, just try to answer it. There quite clearly is something here that makes you uncomfortable. Can you explain what it is?
Fair enough. I had really hoped you would take my opinion as logical on faith, assume that I am rational, and we could avoid this little debate. But that is asking too much it seems.
Well, let me put any religious beliefs I may have on the sidelines for this. Let me also remind you that I bear no malice towards individuals of the homosexual persuasion and I do not advocate removing Jory or Kas from the storyline – doing so is just a lazy way to “fix” things within the community. Maybe just tone down the PDA and include a character like the one I proposed.
Alright, here we go.
I have purely scientific reasons concerning genetics and psychology to disagree with you, but those are likely to really really really offend you. Please, do not ask me to go into that.
Instead, I will see if I can get through to you by using your values against you first. If that fails, then I will talk genetics and psychology.
Your argument is simply that you have the right to do as you please.
Not necessarily. But in regards to love, if it’s consensual, certainly.
But does that mean that if two consenting adults fall in love, that we should bring our support to them no matter what? Not just accepting them, but advocating their love as “right”? There are other, far more controversial, relationship dynamics than homosexuality that I accept, but will not agree with. Some of them are taboo the world over, with and without religion, and I believe that your view of “consensual love is never wrong” means that you not only accept, but advocate these taboos as well. You can’t take one without the other when it comes to consensual love.
I implore you, accept my discomfort with advocating this aspect as apposed to just being neutral.
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My my my, so protective of the gender imbalance, aren’t we? I was simply referring to the fact that Destiny’s Edge 2.0 is comprised: 1 male to 4 females. Seems unlikely that no males are suitable for the role. So, what am I saying? I am saying that there is nothing “wrong” here it just feels unlikely.
I think we will, but I also think many other things will start changing
They never get invited to those kinds of parties.
here is a good question: should Orr be given back to humanity? It was something of a draw between the Charr and human when it came to Orr.
Mortarmer Whitecap (Engineer): “It’s not a good idea to keep pressing the humans. The treaty is a wise choice. In the end, if we really pressed Ebonhawk, Kryta would keep warring against us. And if we attack Kryta, we’d have to take troops through Norn lands – that didn’t end well last time. Both the Cataclysm and the Foefire proved that humanity can be… intimidating… when backed into a corner. I would not want to be on the receiving end their last act of desperation. Besides, the dragons are a bigger threat. It is not a wise tactic for either race to hold protracted battles on so many fronts. All this is not even counting humanity’s new watchknight forces. We know so little about those things. If you house cats want to keep swatting the hornet’s nest, be ready to face the consequences.”
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I’ve got better things to do than skin Charr. I say, take Elona back from that Undead Lich instead of dealing with them and stretch the New Ascalon human kingdom southward and westward, away from the Charr. Besides, the Charr are handy in a fight.
Their voice actually sounds like members of my family…. weird.
Yes, but imagine. Being cut from the same cloth as the Risen. Being the monster told in bedtime stories. LUKE! HE IS YOUR FATHER!
lol A bit of both here. Machiavelli is a really bad example. A WWII reference may have been a better approach.
Maybe he is not gone
Same reason Glint did: if Mordremoth finds her, he will kill her.
ahem allow me: Magic…
Wait, Faren’s a dude? (joking)
Nah, it all makes sense now that they are being set up as dragon minions. Imagine the shock! Your closest allies, even yourself, may turn out to have been created by the world’s gravest threat.
Agreed. I didn’t notice too much of an “imbalance” between genders up until the living story, the only male we have in the main group is Braham. There is nothing “wrong” with this, but it seems unlikely that all the men in Tyria lack spines, talent, and good will.
It is also possible that as this is a nature dragon, this creature may be ever changing
Not automatic, simply daunting if the Charr goes in unprepared.
hmm, maybe you’ll change your mind when the watchknights come back as the human fighting force.
I get the feeling that the sylvari may have trouble liking their origin. If the dragon did create them, that may make for some interesting identity issues
I said the same thing about Kas and Jory.
I deflect the conversation because my goal is not to prove that individuals of that persuasion are wrong. I am not the one on the offensive in this discussion, I am the one on the defensive.
You cannot prove me wrong, any more than I can prove you wrong.
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Why? We already have jory and kas.
Rog, let’s try to keep our heads about this. I know where you are coming from, but the way you presented it will only serve to agitate.
And this is where we conflict. I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong in this matter, but I am not trying to enforce my view of “right” on you. As for the validity, I believe that if we both chatted about it, you would see that my view is not without its merits, but you would likely still disagree in the end.
That outcome is highly likely. But would you care to explain why you think it would be wrong?
They do, but I do not see it as “right” to bring love beyond a “brotherly” or “sisterly” bond.
Why not? That is I think the core question.
No, the core question is “why must I agree and/or support you?”
What about you? Would you see values such as my own in the game? Chances are that you would react in a similar fashion to how I react to Kas and Jory.
Fair and interesting question. Not necessarily in this game, since it would seem a bit out of place considering the lore, and the beliefs of the various races of Tyria. But it would all depend on the implementation. I could see myself being fine with your point of view being represented in some way in another videogame where it would be more appropriate.
Hmm how would you like to see values such as my own presented in a different game?
How about both?
I like Taimi, a great character.
Charr are kittens compared to Norn brawn.
I was wondering the same. Sounds to me that we were just wrong about why Scarlet created the Tower of Nightmares
lol I have always loved this bit
Norn, hands down. Norn are known to lift impossible weights even in their youth. Well, the Charr might stand a chance if the Norn started boasting
The Epilogue Better Be Grand *Spoilers*
in Battle for Lion’s Arch - Aftermath
Posted by: bullyrook.2165
My question is: what are they going to do with a massive structure like the breachmaker?
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She’s playing possum? lol
I like Braham, can we get a rude but totally awesome male character with the new season?
I feel a bit slighted. All the heteros got in this story line are two quaggans. Not fair, not fair at all lol
even if I resent your calling me irrational.
Just the position, not the person.
If that is the case, I hold that you view is as rational as my own. We simply disagree.
Breaking down logic, people have been going back and forth on this topic for eons. If we were to discuss it here, it would take this tread way off topic. If you need to know more, just message me and we can discuss it.
That’s probably far further than I intended to take this discussion.
Agreed.
Your argument is simply that you have the right to do as you please.
Not necessarily. But in regards to love, if it’s consensual, certainly.
Then we are on the same page on that point.
That is not giving a reason for you to be seen as “right”. It only suggests that you are not “wrong”. One does not necessarily imply the other.
I don’t think there is such a thing as right or wrong in this matter. But there is such a thing as valid or invalid arguments.
And this is where we conflict. I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong in this matter, but I am not trying to enforce my view of “right” on you. As for the validity, I believe that if we both chatted about it, you would see that my view is not without its merits, but you would likely still disagree in the end.
I simply didn’t agree with the point of view. But again, I could always walk away, that is why I kept my mouth shut, up until this point.
What point of view? That two women can fall in love? They do in real life. I don’t see the problem.
They do, but I do not see it as “right” to bring love beyond a “brotherly” or “sisterly” bond. But this is not a question of if your view is right or wrong, it is a question of if it is right to call my view wrong and call your view right within the main story.
It is wrong of the devs to assume we all hold the same values. That much we can both agree on.
Are you willing to move on your view? I somehow doubt that.
A discussion is impossible, unless you are able to see the side of the person you’re having a discussion with. Otherwise it just becomes a one-way barking match between two stubborn people, and the discussion ultimately doesn’t lead anywhere.
It’s unlikely that you’ll sway my position, but I’m willing to hear what your reasons for your position are, so I can see if I agree with your reasons.
I do see your side. I have contemplated your views and views like yours many many times in my life, and I am currently as accepting as anyone who shares my values.
As for why I cannot be swayed: I am playing a defensive game. If I back down, then that would mean that I am mistaken. I believe that I am not, therefore I have yet to back down. Do not mistake my resolve for the unwillingness to listen. I hear you loud and clear.
Do you really want us to get along? Then show individuals such as myself some form of good will. At the end of the day, we are a community, and I accept your views. Just don’t ask me to approve. The latest development between Kas and Jory is a demand for approval, and many of us cannot give it. What about you? Would you see values such as my own in the game? Chances are that you would react in a similar fashion to how I react to Kas and Jory.
I dare not quote any of the above threads. They are all laced with intolerance.
I certainly hope you wouldn’t consider my posts as such. I think I’ve been quite respectful.
No, you’ve actually been the odd man/woman out. I thank you for that, even if I resent your calling me irrational.
Even though many of you claim to be logical, you refuse to acknowledge the situation. The simple truth is that my logic checks out too.
Please explain that logic.
Breaking down logic, people have been going back and forth on this topic for eons. If we were to discuss it here, it would take this tread way off topic. If you need to know more, just message me and we can discuss it.
I simply believe you are wrong. The same way you believe I am wrong.
No I don’t think we believe you are wrong in the same way. We have good arguments to think you are wrong. But I’d like to hear arguments from you, why you think you are right.
Your argument is simply that you have the right to do as you please. That is not giving a reason for you to be seen as “right”. It only suggests that you are not “wrong”. One does not necessarily imply the other.
Even when Jory and Kas stated their interest and open-air flirtations, I didn’t approve of it, but I still shrugged it off and let it go.
Why didn’t you approve of it?
I simply didn’t agree with the point of view. But again, I could always walk away, that is why I kept my mouth shut, up until this point.
I will not move on this view, not for you, not for anyone. And you’ll just have to, “let it go” as you so often say to individuals such as myself.
That is not a healthy position to take on a discussion forum.
Are you willing to move on your view? I somehow doubt that.