Since when did Ranger and Elementalist give 224 health per second to their allies and even close to 350 to themselves with 0 healing power and only their healing skill. The range on the Engineer heal is larger than Combustive Shot so its not really hard to hit everyone with it. I don’t even have 10 posts in this thread so I dunno where 27 came from. This is again about only the healing skill since everyone complains about Healing Signet.
Wait, what? You just chidded me earlier stating very specifically that you demand we are speaking in terms of how engineer is OP in a group context, yet you keep trying to make 1 to 1 comparisons.
I am following your context by explaining what my wife, son, and I in group, have capability of. Then you resort back to making it a 1 to 1 comparison. Which is it pal?
Nope, they are all fine. Diminishing returns is the worst mechanic ever to hit an MMO. No one should be forced to have their skills work less then full strength simply another player just hit you with a similar skill.
You’ve never played other MMOs, have you? DR is put in place to avoid players cheesing not only PvP through CC spam, but also to avoid it happening in PvE, both to AND from monsters. It needs to be put here too, whether through giving players Defiant or something else.
Yes, I have played several MMOs Actually. If you like, I can list them. A few had diminishing returns on stats even less had diminishing returns on any skills functions.
Feel free to list all the ones with diminishing returns on skills. I am fairly sure for each one you list, I can list 3-4 that do not.
warrior getting buffed with 5 stacks of torment…. thiefs choking gas get nerfed and we dont get an extra condi on the skill ….. and Warris are crying …..
don’t forget engineer poison getting nerfed too.
Wait, what? You said group balance. So you got proof me and my wife and son do not play together in sPvP?
By the way, since you mentioned it. How does group balance play into a bunker engineer? Do you always have your entire group stack on your engineer when you bunker a point on it? Cause I thought the point of that engineer build was to hold a point with minimal assistance.
So, if you feel the healing turret definingly makes the engineer over powered, why did you make 27 post in this thread before you even mention the healing turret?
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Wow your healing skills automatically heal your allies for that much? They also self heal for near Warrior levels? Elementalist has only 1 staff blast finisher and the other 4 come from rarely used utilities with staff. Ranger only has 1 warhorn blast and using 2 drakes that don’t scale with healing power. This is ignoring that Engineer has the most blast finishers as well of course besides Thief shortbow spam.
Wait…..what? You said they were OP in group . I can link that quote if you like. My wife plays a staff ele, and my son plays a ranger. What is your next argument to be? Demanding I prove I run run a group with my wife and son? Shall I link our generally preferred builds? So now your saying they are OP in groups, then ignoring that my group mates can have water fields for me to blast? For that matter, I can blast random players water fields.
If you wish to discuss the balance of healing turret, sure, we can do that. I agree that is a lot of healing.
Umm, then again, I can do that with my basic weapon on my staff elementalist. For that matter, I can put 5 blast finishers on my usual build onto an elementalist water field for 7,500 AoE healing. As well I can do that off of rangers healing spring. I often have both of those in my group. So does water attunement staff ele and ranger both need nerfs?
You never answered my question, how many hours do you have on your engineer?
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Umm we already did here, and you said it in this thread. If I am mistaken, feel free to quote me the section of the thread title that says this is sPvP, or where you even stated that in your quoted post.
Not to mention you ignore the fact that you have yet to even offer evidence to that statement, much less prove it. As you appear to prefer to offer none specific anecdotal evidence, are you going to give us a specific group composition as well, and demand Anet balances a single profession around a very specific group composition as well?
I think what glaphen wants is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
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But that thread is complaining about 1 on 1s which the game isn’t balanced around, Engineers are broken in team fights.
For one, you have made specific 1v1 comparisons for your argument here, now that he pointed out these facts you are making an entirely new statement. That is simply evidence to an irrational bias. Once your argument is proven invalid, you simply change it. Secondly, my argument here would be to ask you to prove it.
It doesn’t appear to me that he is “implying” anything. It appear more as if he is stating that he has factual evidence to your obvious display of back tracking on your statements when it suits you, against professions you dislike and don’t play. In other words you use one argument when it favors your preferred profession, but you argue the exact opposite against professions you have trouble fighting. To me, that sure seems as if you are simply demanding nerfs to suit your personal needs, reguardless of whether something is balanced or not.
Wow, that would totally bog down the system and offer massive opportunity for more lag, only to promote less need to simply show awareness.
Personally, it makes more sense to me to cause a player to display some awareness, rather then force the rest of us who already use awareness, to suffer from unnecessarily heavier lag.
The only issue I had with impale is that you can’t really cleanse it but it also makes sense since the sword is still stuck inside you. They could have buffed Rip by making it apply the torment on the rip.
To me, that would only make sense if all their other weapons for that sword became locked out when the sword is in you.
Condition duration isn’t a stat on gear like power or condition damage. You can’t really compare in that sense. That’s what I was referring to.
You mean like givers weapons? I have 2 with my character right now. But wait, you swear they don’t exist.
The condition duration slots on runes are taking the place of things like boon duration or other special abilities, not raw stats. The major form of condition duration is from traits, which has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis because it’s in different lines on different professions and may or may not be extremely useful. So yes, it’s extremely important, but it’s also rolled into a few small niches; you don’t have to spend 500+ stat points on it and the returns for it are pretty big when you can stack enough of it.
Ahh, I see. So now, when it doesn’t suit your argument, runes, and sigils are not considered gear. But when your claiming a condi build has access to too any condition types, you were all for demanding that sigils and runes were important. Hmm, it is interesting that you would rather win an argument with bias ans exclusivity, rather then come to terms with what the rest of us have been aware of for a very ling time.
I mean for example, the game, the devs, and the wiki all define condi duration with the same definition as a stat. You can bend a mutate your argument all you wish. It is a defining fact that it is a stat.
If you don’t think condition damage deals a lot of damage in a short period, then watch an engineer CC you then load up grenades and bombs on top of you. That gets burning, confusion, bleeding, and poison at least. Counting the CC, that can be done in 4 attacks. Let’s say 5 for the glue bomb. If you try to do anything to stop them, you’re taking over 1000 damage per second. Most of that lasts for well over 5 seconds.
My warrior does over 1000 DPS with the hammer auto attack in full exotic soldiers gear.
So what you just described as an engineer spamming 5 skills in a kit, that takes up a utility slot, that cost them space for a stun breaker or a condition removal, is the equivalent to a soldier geared warrior with 2 hammers skills, backbreaker and the auto attack.
You are certainly making some good arguments for a need to buff engineers my friend.
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If you want to compare engineers to the other classes, start giving the engineer the same baseline of the other classes – a second weapon slot and a non-dps nerfed main weapon. Then we can talk about it.
I agree. As the devs posted balance philosophy specifically states that they intentionally made out only 3 weapons combos intentionally weak/subpar because of kits.
So I completely agree with you on this IP is intended to aid in compensating how we have to sacrafice a utility slot just for a weapon swap. Thus we have an on par weapon set if we sacrafice a utility slot, and one intentionally under powered weapon set.
I must not have been clear. I meant that for the three stats a direct damage user needs, a condition damage user needs one. That means more stat points for a condition damage user can be allocated to defensive stats while maintaining similar damage.
No, you were not unclear, you were simply factually incorrect. As condition duration adds 100% damage from any condition damage tic, it is a certain to suggest it is not as important if not certainly more important for damage then condition damage stat.
As well a profession can proc thousands in damage in condition tic, it is extremely important. I did some searching of old forums post and found a breakdown (I originally found it on guru, but it had a link to the post here) that shows anywhere from a 19% overall damage increase, to a 41% damage increase, depending on the profession.
As well I found a fair amount of previous test with a lot of videos and damage comparisons that demonstrated that most professions have higher possible damage out put in soldier gear then dire gear. In the same threads, the knights gear outdid rabid gear as well. And Zerker gear blew away Rampagers. I have not seen a solid comparison with rabid and 100% condition duration though.
Needless to say, all the documented evidence on these forums and Gurus forums show you to be very incorrect in your statements. But that was someone else’s test. What did your test show when you broke them down for a damage comparison? Which professions did you include in your damage comparison with comparable gear? If your test are more up to date or show different numbers, if you post them, I am sure it might change the dynamic of the conversation.
Exedore, Your total analysis is factually inaccurate. A single player will not stack more condition damage then a direct damage user will do. They will do equivalent damage. Only the direct damage user will get their damage applied instantly.
FYI, condition duration adds more damage the the condition damage stat. So claiming condi users only need one stat is a irrational statement if you ask me.
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Engineers are under powered because they need to sacrifice a spot for a condition removal or a stun breaker just to have a kit for a weapon to swap.
The problem is that there is no problem with conditions and some of you keep claiming there is a problem, while offering absolutely no argument …..
Conditions are balanced just fine. Simply because bandwagoners make mindless complaints without testing or knowing fact, doesn’t mean they are not balanced. I know too many players, including myself, who have no particular problem with conditions in PvP.
I agree with. As well do the devs. They have specifically stated WvW is not balanced for 11 and is not intended to be.
To the OP, next time double and triple check what you send. It is your fault, not A.Net’s. They have logs on everything and if they said you did that, then you did. Logs don’t lie, people do.
The old rule in carpentry should be used here, measure twice, cut once.
Completely agree.
This makes as much sense as the teenage girl who rear ends a car while texting, then complains about how it is the company who made the phones fault.
If they don’t have a triple redundancy system, you get threads like this. Where players make mistakes, then are so high and mighty, they go on some crusade to make themselves feel better, trying to get the community to rally behind them.
Then on the when we do have a multiple redundancy system, player post complaining about how much a pain it is to accomplish the task tied to it.
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It would also balance out a bit gear sets like dire which are somewhat absurd since they get both defense and offense.
Soldiers and dire are both bunker. Seems pretty simple to me. Similar damage out put, exact same defense. If you want conditions for the sake of damage, and show up in dire, an informed player will laugh you out of the group.
I participated in some test with some other folks who were comparing damage from different professions with dire and soldiers. As it turned out the standard power build in soldiers gear generally out damaged the professions dire build. So I am going to assume you making this statement without having actually tested or even knowing this one way or the other right? It is pure perception, turned assumption, turned to stating it as fact???
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What do you base that statement on? You do not out play direct damage anymore then conditions. All you do their is out “toughness” them.
Warrior Greatsword Needs Buff
I agree 100%. It used to be a fantastic weapon, now its of limited use in WvW, mainly for the mobility and that’s it!
So what changed that broke it so that it needs a buff. Because logic+high damage+high mobility= needs nerf.
All they ever did to change it really was to change it to movement cancels 100b.
BTW I love when posters claim no one ever uses something when everyone sees it in use al over the place.
You are going to have to way more specific. As I see it, the engineer has 10ish solid biolds for WvW depending on what you want to do with it.
I believe the OPs goal is:
Do you mean “collusion” as in collusion detection?
I can’t tell if you’re joking…
Not joking in the least. I am so used to the term I take for granted that it is not a common knowledge term.
Collision detection typically refers to the computational problem of detecting the intersection of two or more objects. The topic is most often associated with its use in video games
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Nope, they are all fine. Diminishing returns is the worst mechanic ever to hit an MMO. No one should be forced to have their skills work less then full strength simply another player just hit you with a similar skill.
I could care less, because, personally, I chose to ignore the meta and play the builds I like, the way I want to.
You ask how it doesn’t promote build diversity, well that is because it only forces a value lose to stats I want to put where I want.
You ask if I am mad, with a implication in the tone of your final question, in an attempt to provoke me, personally? That appears to me as an action of one who is mad. Why would I be mad about my builds that I enjoy, when I build how I like and ignore the meta? That is just silly.
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-Make Commander Tag account Bound
I agree.
Also, I daresay that they shouldn’t be obtainable for gold. There should be a way to earn them that’s more related to what they’re actually intended to be used for. I’m not sure how that would work exactly, but the current method for obtaining them is just silly.
Didn’t they already state that this was coming in the next update?
Yeah, and theres been exciting news coming with every patch since release. Look how that turned out.
I find it amusing that this PR bullkitten still manages to grab people’s attention after almost 2 years of so called exciting news.
Some of us have thoroughly enjoyed all of those updates. Got to love folks with such a high opinion of themselves that they assume their opinion represents an entire community.
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. Punishing a player for focusing his stats where he wants is in no way even remotely close to a positive way to promote build diversity.
I despise diminishing returns in anything. As a player I expect full value for every skill, weapon, rune, sigil, trait, or stat that I invest in.
New? This is one of the oldest builds around. Anyway, it is generally an x/30/x/x/30 style build that uses the trait static discharge from the tools line, and utilities with targeted and low recast skill on their tool belt version. Each time you use a tool belt skill with the SD trait, it shoots out a bolt of lightening that bounces between foes.
Essentially it is the classic engineer glass cannon build.
The damage per skill on the warrior great sword is entirely to much damage to justify any kind of buff. Not to mention the low cool down movement skill + cripples.
You have to give up a few things to even come close to logical justification of a buff of any kind.
What kind of sense does it make to fix mobs I will see a mere handful of times in the game ever instead on runes, sigils, traits, and skills I will use a thousand times a day?
That concept of “what matters” is disturbing.
It is a nerf to engineers because apparently after a certain amount of players bandwagoned to them in PvP they decided to make a change to keep them as the least played profession.
Here is the video posted explaining what is coming.
Does it bother anyone else that this poster pops in out of know where and make this troll post/thread that seems just stupidly controversial, then never post on it again? Those posters are not asking a genuine question, or do not have a real opinion, they are just trolling.
You know… if the devs really wanted it that way…
Why didn’t they make our class skill a kit instead of a tool belt?
Why don’t you ask the devs that? Do other people here have to answer for them? The devs posted it, not coglin.
Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes +at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.*
Do you mean “collusion” as in collusion detection?
The OP asked his question in the original post very wise guy like, with a sarcastic tittle. After giving him honest answers and explanations, just to have him come back with arguments and more rude sarcasm. Why not just ignore this thread and permit him to fall on his face without your help? He deserves not to know its benefits and how to use it after using the approach he has.
Well, we get thousands of threads in which players who dislike something, make dumb comments like
“Anet would know that if they played the game”
Then when they turn on their tags to display that they do play the game, we get people making threads like this.
Danged if they do, danged if they don’t
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the thing about making missed back stabs cost initiative
is it would only hurt in fights where it is thief VS anything in stealth.
the only time a thief will spam the stab in stealth is if they r trying to hit another player in stealth .
just making stealth on stealth fights harder for no reason
It is a perfectly good reason if you ask me. If you do not want to lose the initiative, do not swing at something you cannot see. Other professions have skills that lose their entire resource for said skill when they miss, and by that I mean every skill on every other profession. What your suggesting is exactly like suggesting that if a player on another profession uses a skill after a player is in stealth, that their skills used should not go on cool down.
Define viable?
I just love when folks use abstract terms to try to define a subjective idea into concrete limits.
As much as it has been mentioned since release, there is a possibility it may be different after the 15th, then again maybe not, we will see. I do think comparing it to Fumigate and Flame Jet though is a bit unreasonable. They are very different targeting systems for those skills. All that said though, I also, would like to see it changed so that they all go straight at the target since it is an actual supposed to be a targeted weapon skill.
Whether you like them or not, any trait that uses an internal cooldown has absolutely no method to track it
I use awareness to track them.
Some traits already have an active cool down display that shows in the UI in the boon section. So you cannot really say there is "absolutely no method to track them, because there is in some cases. Personally, I like how it is. I do not wish to have more system stress in WvW effecting lag. That said, we do not know how many of those traits will change in the next update that may or may not effect this issue.
The idea is great but first we need a fix to show all effects on the status bar in rows. Because right now they disappear behind the minimap. And I think it shouldn’t force us to move our minimap to the top… They were shown in rows in Guild Wars too as far as I remember.
Then you will have players who either cannot identify the the icons because they must be compressed as the rows stack up, or complaining that they begin to effect players FoV.
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There isn’t really any tradeoff to taking IP, as every engie is going to take it b/c it is far and away the best trait at its tier. Also, it is in the trait-line with the other “mandatory” trait, grenadier. Almost every engie build has to take grenades because they are so strong. If you are going 30 up explosives, IP is almost free.
A few things that are hard to swallow here. You think it is not a trade off, there for you state its as if it were fact and expect the rest of the community to swallow that. As far as diamond skin being discussed, well it is a passive skill and relevant for many reasons. It offers zero skill game play, which you are attempting to stand behind as bad design, when in reference to DS specifically you promote the opposite and specifically state that you are okay with it. We are not discussing the skill, we are discussing your bias towards a specific aspect in relation to one over the other.
The fact that you believe almost every engineer build takes or focuses on grenades, in itself is a bit of a testament to your limited knowledge of the profession and its community. Grenades may be a popular kit, but to claim they are in over 50% of the builds seems inaccurate.
We can discuss D. Skin in the appropriate thread, as I can see cases where it could be an issue, no reason to get off-track as to whether IP is too strong on engie.
No one is discussing D. skin. I am discussing how it is an example of a trait that requires no skillful play what so ever, and how you promote it as okay on your main profession and use it as a aspect on a rival profession. From my perspective, the bias takes away from your argument.
One of the problem with IP is that it is UNAVOIDABLE burns (if you dodge a “would-be crit” it doesn’t go on CD), that require no active play on the engie’s part. It also is TOO RELIABLE in terms of damage.
DS avoids it 100% if it crits in the first 10% of an eles damage with that trait, putting it on full CD. So do not state it, as if it has no counters. I can list many if you do not like that one. Transmute for example. Automated response. Berzerker stance. Those are a few of the ways IP will do zero damage and go on CD. Please to not claim it is “UNAVOIDABLE” as if doing it in all caps makes those counters i just listed do not exist. The fact it, in many cases it is completely avoidable with hard counters.
As well it can be strongly negated by food that lowers condition duration, runes that lower condition duration and so on.
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Your contradicting in your justifications. You claim traits on your favored profession require sacrifices, then state that traits you are attacking do not. IP is a trait in a trait line that has several high value traits, and a player is forced to trade one for another. You are simply ignoring true investment needed for the sake of your argument.
Your claim that it single handedly wins fights, is subjective at best. Sure seems highly questionable to me. It is not a sin to have traits that boost a specific build type, that are not a grandmasters.
It just makes it hard to take your argument seriously that your “okay” with this traits hard counter IP being 100% passive and requiring zero skill what so ever, then going on and using the opposite argument as a reason to nerf this trait.
I don’t even play a stealth profession and I feel if you cannot handle a stealthy player, that your being petty to demand it gets nerfed.
I handle it with limited difficulty myself. As well, I see others handle stealthy attackers with no problem on a daily basis.
Unlike with other imbalances like Warrior Healing Signet + Adrenal Healing it’s hard to pin-point exactly what makes Engineers so OP.
Got to love the ole’, “I have no evidence so clearly I have not broke down the specifics or actually tested to even develop specifics so my perception is law” argument.
In my book it’s the ability to passively deal damage while kiting combined with lots of knock-backs, CC and Blinds. It’s not an individual trait or skill that makes them OP, but rather their entire kitten nal and the lack of trade-offs they have to make.
And which build would that be? Got a video of you playing it and showing how how said build is particularly too strong?
Yes, Engineers don’t have amazing crit-videos where they show off their PvE DPS and no they aren’t very popular but mark my words, in a few months time this problem will become much more apparent.
They used to. good old 100 nades, which took a solid set up effort. Thanks to poorly rationalized complaints based on perception such as this one, it was quickly nerfed.
Incendiary powder does need a change, as it likewise doesn’t promote skillfull play. One reason why condi-tank engineer is so strong is that it can play really defensively between condi-bursts caused by procs such as this. The only real weakness of condi-engi is necro condi-transfers.
Why the bias against this skill, yet no complaints from all of the vast amount of proc skills that increase damage out there?
I mean, you openly state you have no problems with skills such as diamond skin, that offer zero skillful play what so ever. From reading your post history, you appear to be okay with skill less play traits from other profession (particularly the ele). Sure seems to me like it could be a display of bias, wanting to assist the elementalist to have more exclusivity to burning.
Possible suggestions:
-IP proc OPPORTUNITY after critting (10s icd). The engineer glows orange like going super-saiyan (and has a status-bar indicator), and next attack will proc IP. If it misses, too bad about getting out-played. All such on-crit procs should have a similar mechanic so that they can be dodged.
I just don’t understand the thought process of adding even more graphic heavy ideas that will force the system to have just that much more to process in battles in WvW.
-IP applies longer burn, but longer icd: 5 or 6s on 20s icd so that cleanses are more effective against it.
What is your justification for singling out this 20 point investment for such a nerf?
-IP procs only successful activation of an F1-F4 ability.
I like the professions mechanic, so I could get behind this idea, but the proc rate would have to change. Or make it an on hit trait and adjust the cool down. Possibly even change it to give a Xs burn per tool belt skill (1s with 180 AoE range?) and it could be the condition version of static discharge?
Personally, I have always wanted some condition damage value from the shield. I would love to see this trait give 100% chance for 1s burn when hit with a shield skill with no ICD. This would let you hit multiple opponents. If their is some issue with hitting multiple foea and it had an ICD then it would need a longer duration by far, but with the first option I think the long cool down on the shield skill covers that.
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