Where exactly did I talk about weapon swaps on engineers and what has that to do with IP?
Here
sigh you can use kits, turrets, gadgets or other skills as your main weapon set, you know?
After you quoted some of this post here.
The devs stated previously one of the intended values of this trait is to offer subsequent damage for the weak weapons damage on build that do not run kits. This was posted after the discussion that stemmed from the dev posted balancing philosophies in which they stated, the engineers under powered weapons was an intended design.
Searing flames allows a lot of stripping for guardians too
Engineers have a really solid stripping with mine/mine field
Acid elixir trait will strip boons when an engineer uses the AoE buff of elixirs as well.
The problem being that spamming of conditions is MUCH easier than the removal of conditions.
Wait…Wha……What? Well DUH. If cleanses kept pace with condition removal, then condition builds would be completely useless. This already occurs in WvW any time you have and groups of significant size clashing at all. It is one thing to offer a reasonable argument, but to expect a 100% counter 100% of the time doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Because we are FORCED into using them. Try going condi without them. It simply can not be done because of the lack of condition covers.
It appears you do not understand the definition of “forced”. You really should work on that. Proclaiming “optimal” to mean the same as “forced” does nothing for your argument. Your making way to many blind assumptions here. We do not all follow your build perspective in out professions, and we do not all build for 10% damage optimization all the time, if ever.
I do go conditions without them easily. In my condition build, I generally run with generosity and purity.
Geez, Why does everyone want to nerf or ruin every sigil or rune that becomes of a meta usage withing 2 weeks of its existence?
I do not see anything wrong with these runes at all.
That is pretty much it. If someone is going to tell us how our profession works, and that it is OP, the least they can do is not claim we can use gadgets or turrets as weapon swaps. Next you will be telling us how OP elixirs are when armed as MH weapons too right?
So maeggle, what your saying is, that in a very unreasonable build that no one uses, that is specifically build by you as an example, makes the trait OP? Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to make practical comparisons ?
As for your suggestion to auto attack nonsense, well you do not think it is OP when over a 60s period, a axe warriors auto attack can deal more damage then all of the engineers MH pistol combines, if they are spammed the second they come off cool down? You can make all the attacks on the comparison you like. If you add in other attacks, the damage difference between an axe warrior in soldiers gear and a pistol MH engineer in dire. The damage capability is in massive favor of the warrior.
sigh you can use kits, turrets, gadgets or other skills on your main weapon set, you know?
sigh No, actually the engineer cannot. That is in no way how it works.
A) kits and only kits work in place of weapons swap.
B) Kits take a limited utility slot limiting a condition cleanse or stun break options
C) Now your crying fowl with IP by presuming no one is permitted to run a full turret build (has no weapon swap), all elixir HgH build (has no weapon swap), and gadgeteer build (has no weapon swap).
When I’m on my engineer I like to run my rifle hgh build, cause I don’t like playing condition builds (even tho my ele relies on burning and bleeds for some additional damage and utility, and my guardian can also put some more pressure on opponents via burning), but well, that’s totally unrelated to IP. I was speaking of full condition or hybrid engineer builds….
If it is so obviously OP, why is it that you do not use it? If it was so entirely OP that it needed a change, then everyone would use it.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
What is sacrificial about using runes and sigils that compliment your build or help you reach a goal of the build?
Where did I say vulnerability was a damaging condition? In a group, the engineer for example, excels at stacking vulnerability and group might. This game is multiplayer oriented. These one on one fight comparisons are irrelavent, as the game is niether balanced for one on one, nor is one on one any game mode.
So… if it is redundant, why leave it? Auto procs dumb down fights because there is nothing to mitigate it reliably. Even ranged auto attacks can crit once in a while, which puts another 4 to 6 seconds of burning every 10ish seconds on you.
This sure seems to be a poorly thought out statement. The devs stated before this trait allows subsequent damage for the weak weapons damage on build that do not run kits. So how you came to your assessment is beyond me.
Particularly after it was broken down in a previous thread on this topic (thanks OP for spamming the forums with remakes of threads repeatedly by the way). So the MH Pistol skills are very limiting for the engineer. If you take a full dire gear engineer with trait points invested for IP compared to a warrior with hammer, axe, mace, or greatsword, in all soldiers gear, and of those auto attacks by themselves, significantly out damage the pistol or rifle auto attack on the engineer with IP.
Engineers already have great access to several conditions (confusion is one of them, btw) and cover conditions via traits and low-cooldown-spells.
Why give them traits like IP when most condition and hybrid engineer builds already can reapply strong conditions faster then necros while having better access to defensive spells and boons? I don’t see how IP improves overall gameplay, player skill and fun for all players involved.
What build do you run on your engineer? I mean, you are telling us what they can and cannot do, so it is reasonable to share your build. What seems odd, is that you refer to the profession in terms of “them” instead of “us”, which displays a clear and defined biased against the profession as a whole.
This whole angle of what conditions a profession can apply or reapply is irrelevant. The only thing that matters, is how much those skills do in damage over time when added up and totaled, in comparison to a comparable direct damage build.
Rather than just nerf all conditions, all that needs to be done really, adjust the number of conditions these classes have. I mean look at Ele they have TWO damaging conditions. No matter the weapon, no matter the trait load out they have TWO.
That doesn’t make any sense. My elementalist has bleeds, torment(superior sigil of torment), poison(superior sigil of doom), and if I chose, confusion with perplexity, and of course burning. That is 5 damaging conditions, besides the obvious vulnerability, blind, and chill.
Wait, Shimmerless, are you suggesting that we start using damage comparison numbers and actual facts with numerical values for arguments on this thread now?
If so, I would really like to see your thoughts on how conditions as a whole are over powered compared to direct damage skills. Seems a bit out of sorts to see you criticize anothers numbers when you have not offered us any at this point.
Personally, It seemed to me, that common sense would dictate that he was simply making a point about the other poster mentioning spamming all of the skills, then that would be a good time to use a cleanse. I never did see where ash mentioned using any cleanses.
@sinject
Do you have any facts or damage comparisons, or anything that could be reasonably considered a reasonable fact to support your repetitive claims ??
Please, link your build that you have problems against conditions with, so we may start there. Perhaps we can offer suggestions to aid you.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
please tell me in what context is passively applying one of the strongest conditions in the game okay? it seems you’re trying to justify it without actually going into any detail by just attacking necro.
We already went over this in the previous threads on this topic. Someone already poster the numbers and laid it out. A warrior in full soldiers P/V/T gear, with literally zero traits or trait points spent, using simply the auto attack of axe, will significantly out damage an engineer with pistol/shield who is using IP in dire gear.
engineers have been one of the top professions since launch, and at this rate they’re only getting stronger alongside this ridiculous condition meta.
Got any evidence of this?
You appear to be very spectacular at proclaiming your personal opinion as if it were cannon, yet extremely poor at actually using any facts. Why do you avoid offering any facts with your claims?
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
I want a MM necro with a ranger pet…..Oooh Oooh, better yet a MM necro with engineer turrets on top.
Awww, no your going to take the, contradicting your line of logic’ path are ya? What a shame. So you want to use the balance philosophy when it suits your argument, yet, when it doesn’t, you state that is irrelevant. You work in politics don’t you?
If you make warriors weak against condis they’ll be free kills again * since we have no means to mitigate them being applied – aka avoiding them* like other classes do.
Please educate us. What do other professions have that prevent attacks from landing that warriors do not?
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
C’mon Harper, you forgot to do Engineer and Guardian.
If you want to go off the balance philosophies though, the warrior truly needs less condition removal options then they currently have. If your going to defend an extra 25,000-30,000 HP per minute, that is absolutely passive, you have to realize how that effects conditions, which they are absolutely supposed to have problems with and need assistance to deal with, yet they do not.
Personally I wouldn’t consider 10 seconds of fury and 30 [!] seconds of might and swiftness, an automatic three-second invulnerability plus stun-break or three seconds of protection on every disable useless, but that’s just me. (There’s even a fairly reliable chance to passively convert incoming fear into stability).
Ahh, now I understand what those folks were saying about you in those other two threads now. How do traits with cool downs (some of those up to 90s) fit the word “Every” into how they react?
or whether an Engineer is running condition immunity or not:
What “condition immunity” would that be?
I looked at the thread. What does any of that have to do with 8s of stability? What is really easy to see if you look at the thread he linked, is that is has little to nothing to do with this threads topic.
If you wish to discuss engineer traits that have nothing to do with stability, feel free to make a thread on that. This thread is not about whether or not a trait is better or worse then last stand. It is about whether or not the fact that it gives stability and is 8s of duration, needs to be looked into.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
This game needs duel class integration like in gw1.
Umm, no, no it doesn’t. The manpower investment in balancing that is atrocious. We already have enough uninformed complainers all over the forums as well. Imagine throwing in even more skills for them to misunderstand and make even more QQ threads about.
Yeah, because hammers aren’t spamming cleave damage by multitudes of warriors and guardians.
Not to mention your mathematical complete misinformation about any profession losing 30% of their damage. At least if your going to make a complaint thread, you could be aware of the facts first. Unless you are referring to the 40% condition damage nerf to one of the engineer grenades. Which is significant considering only 2 out of 5 grenades do actual condition damage.
As to conditions, on the whole, a condition attack does congruent damage to a direct damage attack, only it takes multiple second to apply the same damage, while the direct damage attacks put all of the damage out at once. Either way it totals out to the same damage level.
Zergs have massive AoE condi cleanses, essentially neutering any condition builds to nil. So what is the problem?
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
impossible to change mortar into a kit
engy kit dont got CD and is the point for engy to have only utility kit for swap sigil
if mortart was converted a kit we OP it with lyssa runeset (elite take all boons and clean condition) if we got a 10 sec on cd on that rune, every 10 sec we got full buffed just using mortar for 1 sec and swap to another kit or weapon
thet can make a successive nerf on all kits
just leave mortar in this state (turret) and hopping for a CD reduction 120 sec to 60 sec
The charr elite “charzooka” is a kit with a cool down.
As far as signet of restoration goes, are you referring to weapons skills? For starters, warriors do not use or cast spells of any kind outside of the magically imbued signets. Which are not spells in themselves. As well, It would be out of line to grant heal for every skill activated. For example in the elementalist (where it appears you are copying this from, so you lose points for an absolute lack of originality) because it should not heal if you cast an elite or utility skill.
While I can perhaps agree about this particular trait, it’s worth pointing out that Warrior is ironically nowhere near the worst offender for this kind of thing; that would be Engineer, by a considerable margin:
^ Worth taking a look.
By biggest offender, are you suggesting the engineer gets more then 8s of stability or gets it more often? In what manner are they the greatest offender?
Engis are great with grenade kit underwater.
No they are not.
Grenades are horrible underwater. They were good at one time because of a bug that often caused double explosions. They have a extreme spread to them As of now they are very poor under water. The only weapon choice they have is the Harpoon gun and the AA for example has an extremely slow movement rate. The regular swimming pace of a target is literally enough to move out of Homing torpedo (the auto attack) causing to to miss unless the target is at a stand still.
Personally, my issue with this, is that the devs posted balancing philosophy specifically state that hampering conditions are intended to be the warriors weakness.
Because devs don’t care about underwater.
QFT, see Turrets or Elixirs…
And rocket boots.
It drives me nut when I jump in the water and realize all my skills in a current build are locked out. Forcing me to use different skills underwater that I have no traits for what so ever.
I do not think they need to remove access to conditions. My experience with various professions is that there is generally a specific skill or two on each profession that has a ridiculously long duration or oversized stack on a specific skill.
conditions as a whole are just fine. The problem is skills that are specifically over powered. This occurs with direct damage, some stun skills, and conditions.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
So what your saying Lucentfir, is that it is no different then if multiple opponents attack you with control based builds, and your stun breakers cannot keep up with stun tactics from multiple attackers and are defeated.
As I see it, the solution is to simply lower the duration of the traited effect.
I would love to have any reason to have a little diversity from the supply crate. It is an elite, and really needs to be more valuable then a utility turret or utility kit, such as the grenade kit.
Actualy due to notes there was bug underwater where every grenade explode twice instead of once. Why it was noticed by devs after almost 2 years is myth for me:-)
Because it hadn’t been there for two year.
It is my understanding that in small group fights, warriors trade CI for this trait when they have a guardian or other profession in their party to keep conditions at bay. At least the warriors I know make that trade when I play my guardian, or have the elixir gun on my engineer.
And why would you post this in the balance sub forum over the bug sub forum?
because it doesn’t seem to get read there.
Ah, I see. You feel an issue effecting you makes you special, and there for gives you the right to break the forum rules and use reasonable logic to locate it where the proper dev has a chance to see it. Check .
It does not belong in balancing forums, and trust me, it will get more attention in the bug forums then anywhere else.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
The trait is Master level, same as the trait Cleansing Ire. In PvP CI is basically a must have if you don’t want to die horribly to conditions. So, if you want both traits that means going 6 into the defense line and then giving up either Spiked Armor or Defy Pain, both of which are really useful traits. Most meta Warrior builds don’t even take this trait, especially in Hambow because you don’t want to give up either CI or Merciless Hammer.
In WvW you can have food replace CI if you also have Dogged March and Runes of Hoelbrak/Mel. They don’t balance the game around WvW because it’s IMPOSSIBLE. That game mode will never be balanced because you can use food buffs in it and there will likely be a difference in the number of players on each side.
As for the passive nature of the trait, you aren’t wrong but I also don’t get why people are so against them. Even DotA-like games often have passives, in fact most characters have at least 1. In this case, the Warrior HAS to give something up to get this trait. MAYBE they could take Last Stand and then take 3 Shouts with Soldier runes…but that removal isn’t very good and it totally cripples your attack power unless you’re using conditions (a different problem altogether).
What line it is in, and what traits are in that line as competitors has nothing at all to do with the OPs point. DotA and DotA-like games and what they do is irrelevant as well. The fact that this trait passively ignore control effects is not the issue. Many professions have one of those. The problem is, that this gives an 8s stability on top of that.
What is so entertainingly hypocritical, is that you chose to claim conditions as a whole are mindless and promote a lack of skilled play, while displaying a complete lack of knowledge with conditions, yet here you display a full understanding of the functioning of this skill, and make excuses and justifications for it.
It’s the “meta” because it’s the most powerful and most effective. Even if you choose not to adhere to it, you can’t ignore it when you look at the power of traits, skills, etc.
To start, the engineer doesn’t have “the meta”. The have multiple so called “meta builds”. Your only speaking of the grenade meta. And it is not the meta because it is damage optimal by any means. It is “the grenade meta” because it is 1500 range and simple. If you think it is optimal at anything more then max range, then you truly know extremely little of the profession. Perhaps you should stick with your bear bow.
, I would think that something is wrong when a PVT warrior where VT is in the tank area out-damages a pure condition damage engineer.
Then perhaps you should read the thread. The problem is, the uninformed often make the false assumption that condition damage professions only need one stat. Hence the anti condition uninformed statements about dire gear. Yet they want to kep bring up traits that proc on precession. As I understand it, the up time difference in IP, SS, sigil, gain a near 30% uptime increase when going from base crit chance to 40% crit chance. Not to mention the added direct damage increase, although the scaling is bad. As well, condition duration, which requires investment in weapons, runes, sigils, and a specific trait line, can literally increase condition damage by 100%. So to use the term conditions user and not differentiate between dire, rabid, carrion and so on, would be similar to someone who only used condition builds, just assuming soldiers, knights, and zerkers, focused builds, are all so similar that they are just all direct damage, and never differentiate them, while asking for a nerf to each and every one based on a complaint they have with a specific zerker build.
All of the sudden this Exedore guy for example, starts making a comparison of some grenade meta build he read about once, with specific food, sigil, runes, and traits, to an untrained warrior. To make it worse, he goes blathering about PvP and rabid gear, when the original claimant was specific to state a few things and one of them was dire gear.
The reason why I stay out of this physical damage > condition damage is precisely because I don’t know anything about condition. The only thing I will correct is other people’s mistakes on the physical damage portion, and also tell the condition people to back up their statements so we know what is true and what is not.
So first off, if you have some issue with “condition people” you speak to them. Secondly, kitten many anti condition people here have stated massive amounts of information, stated things often in the opposite of how they actually, or display a lack of mechanical understanding of the subject matter you would be better off not to suggest that this is a team of opinion against a team of opinion, and generalize everyone together.
Actually you need to visit the engineer forums. That is proven to be completely false. It is the meta because it is a 1500 ranged build that is reasonably simply. A melee bomb build destroys that build in damage.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
So your suggesting that an engineer auto attacking with pistol and the IP trait out damages a soldiers gear axe wielding warriors auto attacks? I cannot tell. It seels your more concerned about correct my off the cuff comparison rather then actually answering the question.
@ dancingmonkey.4902
Okay, I’ll try to explain one last time. In sPvP, standard condi engi build is 6/2/0/4/2 with some variants not taking the 2 points of the Firearms line. Rabid amulet is used with Balthazar runes (sometimes Nightmare). That gives them 1197 condition damage and +75% burning duration. In total, each IP proc last 7 seconds, for a total of 4390 damage. Prior to the patch, it was only 5 or 6 seconds in sPvP. That build also has 39% crit chance and with a Hidden Flask proc, it goes up to 59%.
Your damage comparison has many fallacies, in part ignoring ranged vs. melee as well as the use of special attacks, armor, etc. If the warrior is meleeing the engineer, the engineer will use bombs, which have far more damage. Grenades can be used to kite while applying more condition damage and there’s pistol #2 and #3.
And engineers won’t use full dire stats in WvW, but they’ll substitute a good chunk of rabid for dire. The use of +40% condition duration food makes bleeds, poison, and confusion last longer, not just burning, and allows them to use Perplexity runes, which apply even more confusion. Not to mention higher overall stat numbers.
What does any of this stuff your spewing have to do with the 2 previously mentioned specific comparisons and the other posters push about dire? Your spewing your interruption on something that has nothing to do with the specifics of the post I was referring to.
Of course you also seem to think we are all the blind meta following band wagoners. That may work for you, but some of us find other builds we enjoy or that work more for our group/team composition. Other wise, I am sure the thread thanks you for the meta lesson.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
But do realize do to the cast time of nades and the time it takes to aim. No one uses nades in power builds.
If you say so. Let me know when you would like to meet up and I will happily record out duels with my power nades build. I will gladly post the vids here as evidence to my side of the debate. It isn’t rocket science to realize literally only 2 of the 5 grenades skill do condition damage. A 3s poison on a 25s cool down and a and a 14s bled every 5s is unimpressive damage compared to the 700-1500 X3 of the direct damage.
But hey, your the engineer master.
Uh no grenades physical dmg doesnt scale much at all with power, the effects scale well with condi dmg, that’s where most of the dmg from grenades come from. Also if you have at least seen the power rifle builds, you would know that the dmg has increased.
You sir are very uninformed.
Actually grenades scale better with power then condition damage. This is fairly common knowledge.
Tool kit, grenade kit, elixir gun, bomb kit, rifle, P/P, and P/S are all doing the same or less damage. I was simply stating the fact that the engineer is not doing any more damage in sPvP.
I was simply responding to someone stating that every professions skills are hitting harder. Your telling me I am wrong. Yet i would suspect you have not tested this.
I have seen no evidence that every profession has any base increased damage outside of issues with pet and pet like skills.
Experience on my thief, warrior, and guardian today, have displayed no signs of a damage increase in general skills either.
Do none of the sites that track world events work anymore?
How is every class hitting harder? Some skills took a specific damage nerf. Some skills got a buff. To state that every profession is generally hitting harder is extremely poorly thought out.
The question is, is there a reason some or all phantasms are hitting harder?
Have you been playing the game? The damage is pvp is insane from everyone right now. It seems it has something to do with the ferocity change. You are complaining about mesmers when a thief can take another glass to 0 with one backstab.
It is not just mesmers.
There’s definitely something wrong with the ferocity change, it seemed to increase everyone’s damage. DancingMonkey, skills getting nerfed or buffed as nothing to do with the dmg bug. Atm pvp dmg seemed to increase alot before the patch. My iswordsman used to hit 4.5k max, now it hits for 7k. Other classes are the same, hammer warriors supposedly got nerfed, but there dmg remains the same. Backstabs seem to hit for more than before etc.
You can be as rude about it as you like. It is a fact that a grenade engineer is doing less damage, for example.
How is every class hitting harder? Some skills took a specific damage nerf. Some skills got a buff. To state that every profession is generally hitting harder is extremely poorly thought out.
The question is, is there a reason some or all phantasms are hitting harder?
So what professions are you suggesting do not have capability to break immobilize? I am not suggesting your wrong or not. I am simply asking what professions you feel it is an issue. Because many posters suggest immobilization as a whole is a problem on all professions is anecdotal. Yet you didn’t argue that. Once I make the opposing anecdotal claim, you do. Seems a bit biased. But any way, lets look at this per profession and not as a whole for the specific condition.
And why would you post this in the balance sub forum over the bug sub forum?
We darn well better get some compensation. I have lost 7 days worth of laurals, and 7 days worth of Charged Quartz. The ability to make all of the time gated material I am storing up on my account for my various 80s. This is extremely punishing to me. They really need to do something to compensate those of us effected.
Why would it be unlikely to be removed when every profession has at least one if not two skills that have a 100% chance to remove cripple+chill+immobilize. Beyond that, several traits offer the same removal added to skills you already use.
If I had to take a guess as to why on earth immobilize is last, it’s probably to balance things like the Guardian passive cleanse. Of course the best option would just be to change immobilize to only come last on passives, but that’s GW2 for you.
No guessing about it. The community spammed the forums with as many threads as there are stealth/thief hate threads now, demanding that general cleanses remove damaging conditions first. It was a massive community out cry that caused this.
Spammable immobs:
Thief, ele, ranger, warrior, engineer.
The difference between those stun chains and the immob stacking is that they had to wait until the other persons cc was over to get the maximum effect. With immob stacking, you don’t have to wait.
You sir, do not comprehend the definition of spamable then.
Please link the immobilize spam build for each of those professions.
Okay, so throw the number you suggest in the situation I already laid out. The warrior with the same defense still significantly out damages the build you posted. All you doing is arguing a 300 damage per 10s to a non-traited warrior in soldiers gear that is silodly out damaging the engineer.
Oh, I am sorry. So now we are comparing a engineer in a very specific build, to a warrior who is untraited. What is your point? Where is the “dire” gear in your link, since they were crying dire gear? Talk about being behind the times, love.
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)