Guild Wars 2

Personally, I think chill should effect all weapon swaps, initiative regeneration, and not effect movement rate at all. This would make it more congruent in value across the board, At the same time, it will reduce the overlap in functionality with cripples.

There is no such thing as a broken profession. There are only strong skills and traits, that when combined, make over powered builds. As I see it, the devs can only Take this thread seriously if posters discuss specific build combinations, so that we can make them aware of the problematic combos. Making uninformed blanket statements is counter productive and only displays a lack of understanding of the professions that an individual is making blind, blanket statements about.

Another issue I see, is that some players claim yields that are easy to counter play as broken. Does a CC engineer seem broken to a high stability uptime warrior? Probably not. Does a pure condi build warrior seem broken to a necro that has condi tranfers?

Vesuvius.9874:

dancingmonkey.4902:

As an engineer main and also an ele player, I see no need for this, out of combat or not.

Good on ya mate. When this functionality gets introduced, please make it a point to not use it then. In the meantime, don’t get in the way of others that want it.

I am sorry that my opinion upsets you, but I disagree with this idea none the less. As well, I will absolutely get in the way of this, whether you want it or not. As long as I paid For my game, I will share my opinion. If you feel my opinion should change, you would likely be better served to use a logical argument to persuade me, rather then attempt to command me to play how you like. Either way, I disagree with this idea in its entirety.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

dancingmonkey.4902:

As an engineer main and also an ele player, I see no need for this, out of combat or not.

I would much rather that we got a 3rd sigil for stacking sigils, rather than this but i am more surprised by the reactions of people to something that every other class already has and they seem to think this would suddenly make Ele and Engineer overpowered or something.

You appear to misunderstand the other professions. They cannot do what is suggested in this thread. They swap weapons. Eles swap attunements. Engineers swap kits. Out of combat combat weapon swapping is the same among all professions.

As an engineer main and also an ele player, I see no need for this, out of combat or not.

I completely disagree with the OP and some others here. Personally I feel all play stypes are in fact viable. To me it seems that some people seem to lack an understanding of the meaning of viable in relation to the meaning of the term optimal.

@Aegis
I have not seen Anet officially advertise “a new trinity” at all. I have only seen an advertisement for the lack of the old trinity. Do you have a link to support what your suggesting?

I dunno. As a JQ commander, I like to run bomb kit. Personally I prefer the harder hitting, in your face, bomb kit play, over the mediocre damage of grenades at longe range. It all comes down to personal preference though.

As a profession though, we can solo camps as easily as anyone, duel roamers, with the same build, and support or lead a zerg as well or better then any profession.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Being able to stack every condition ever at 1500 range from the total safety of the back of a zerg isn’t OP?

No, not in the least. Considering the consistent use of AoE skills that cleanse, they are underpowered. Now if we are focusing on direct damage from range, it is another discussion all together, but to suggest conditions in a large group battle of any kind are anything near OP doesn’t make much sense to those who regularly experience those battles.

Bhawb.7408:

PvE power necro is the least useful build to have on your team. Everyone else will bring something more to an organized group. WvW is a similar issue, you bring nothing unique that someone else couldn’t do much better.

I disagree with your opinion, whole heartedly. Such broad statements of this nature that are so for from the truth, are why posters who are not familiar with the necromancer, should not post about them

Bhawb.7408:

Just because you have some success on something doesn’t make it good, it just means you have some anecdotal success. I can make MM work in every game mode, its still not a top tier build at all except against mid-tier players in soloQ.

Just because you fail at something that so many others flourish at, doesn’t make it bad either.

Atherakhia.4086:

When you have 8 classes with a viable role in all aspects of the game, balance will be achieved. You don’t need to give every class a way to beat every other class. But you need to at least have something for each class to provide so they aren’t useless.

You do have 8 professions with a viable role. Simply because you claim otherwise does not make it true. No professions are useless. Perhaps some builds are, but you are simply making claims that others prove false on a daily basis.

Atherakhia.4086:

For example, we have a GWEN meta for WvW right now. If you aren’t one of these 4 classes your role is relegated to that of a yak slapper. But even at that, the GWEN classes do do it too (if not better).

You mean a “perceived” meta. All I read here is your regurgitation of other posters comments in an entirely different thread, that you are trying to force us to believe. My personal experience counters this “gwen” *theory, as a whole. Similarly to the poorly perceived so called condition meta everyone claimed dominated sPvP, then when we see competitive tournaments, less then 30% of the players has condition focused damage in their builds.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Terrahero.9358:

Lifestealer.4910:

What is this warrior meta you talk about. Most teams i see consist of 2+ engis and even most top EU team started to drop warriors and put more engis on their team.

If anything this is the engi meta we are in.

Funny enough we just got a big tournament on which 128 teams competed, and we can safely conclude that you are wrong.
Engineer was the second least played profession, and Warrior the second most played profession. Especially in the top teams, who would even field double-warrior at times.

Similarly Condition builds were under-represented aswell. So any complaints about either engineers or conditions is just a good indication of the level the complainer plays on, protip, its nowhere near the top.

Those tournaments happened shortly after the patch and the teams were probably not willing to changing up their team compositions. New metas don’t form overnight.

So even though he offered evidence that it is a completely false claim that high end teams used almost no engineers, we are supposed to take the claim seriously based on your random and unsubstantiated conjecture?

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s not about beating them, it’s that the builds are boring to fight against.

So what? What does whether or not you, as an individual, think it is fun to fight against them, have anything to do with any balance sub forum discussion?

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

^ someone finally gets it

been having trouble with guards lately every time I get some distance they just go NOPE and pull me back in or chuck me around with hammer but when I try to fear them off I get told NOPE!!! he has stability ha ha ha corrupt it.. he just blocks the snot out of me gaining more damage from the corrupt then pops it back on again =|…..

And? The same thing happens to any other profession in the same situation. Are you suggesting guardians some how magically block necromancer skills more then other professions?

Honestly, from some of the stories or scenarios some of you are using to try to justify your unreasonable demand for one skill, makes me question your build, play style, and skill level.

What I find interesting, are comments like the “one trick pony” statement. Which trick are we talking about?

The devastating direct damage I put out on my necro?

The ridiculous manner that I can send conditions flying through the ranks of my enemies?

My ability to AoE boon strip my foe’s? The manner that I AoE cleanse my friends around me?

Lightsbane.9012:

coglin.1867:

So?

Thief, ele, mesmer, and ranger are on that list, yet they do not have access to any more stability then necromancer, yet none of there damage avoidance skills function when they are CCed. Clearly they all need kitten stability skill too.

thief ele and mesmer also have more escapes than the rest of the other five classes combined so they don’t exactly need it do they?

So, how will a “stability” help you escape? Last time I played those professions, I couldn’t use any escape ability when I was CCed.

How is "shotgun"ing grenades relevant to “Machine gun”ing a bow?

All the shot gunning of grenades does is use them at close range and cut out travel time because we leave no distance to travel. Bow has less travel time at close range, thus very literally does machine gun the arrows in the same manner that grenades are shot gunned. So your comparison there is irrelevant, because it is inaccurate.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

coglin.1867:

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Hambow often runs signet of rage. Warriors easy access to swiftness from build to build is undeniable.

Often does not mean always.

As well, access to swiftness means little in my opinion. Access to swiftness, particularly in WvW, is vast. In my experience, movement skills are more defining for mobility.

Access to swiftness in WvW is certain scenarious is vast. You sir just made a generalization. Also, swiftness is a huge boost to mobility and does not mean little.

And hambow really isn’t meta, but that’s a discussion for the warrior forum.

He made a generalization about a profession?

I do not see where he did that at all. Wasn’t that the perspective of relevance to the discussion? More then just that, it seems he specified something was his opinion (as he stated that specifically) instead of declaring it as fact.

Do you see the difference there? Your making statements about professions and demanding we generalize the profession based on that. Others are stating there opinions, and specifying it as that, not to mention he said “access to” not use. Are you suggesting access is not there?

The fact still remains, that we need to compare builds, not professions, when it comes to mobility and survival rate.

I do not think we were kicked out of the meta. I think all the baddie’s assumed the meta was something and created it based on perception, while skilled players did something else all together.

Feel free to look through my post history, I have been pointing this out for months. Particularly on the profession balance sub forum when the random engineer is OP threads pop up.

As it should be. Expecting to come anywhere near the ability to cleanse the conditions applied. That would be about as reasonable as as expecting blocks or invulnerability to keep up with direct damage skills that can be applied.

No. I didn’t miss your point. I am simply disagreeing with it. I do not think anything warrants generalization of any profession as a whole, unless it direct relates to the professional mechanic (F key skills) of that profession. Other wise I feel the conversation is counter productive. Similar to when players feel a build of a profession is OP. Warriors for example were never OP in the slightest. Specific builds were. Specific traits combined with gear combined with weapons skills, combined with utilities in a specific combination were the problem, not the profession. The mind set your attempting to promote is very much part of the problem that prevents honest and productive discussion and promotes irrational class bias, which prevents the uninformed from learning the real issue, and understanding the profession is a good one (they all are) but that a very specific build combination is the problem.

As a was stated earlier. No profession can out run any other. Only certain professions using certain weapons skills and/or certain utility and/or certain traits. That is a very provable fact. If you disagree, hop on a profession with no weapons, traits purchased, or utilities armed, and race any other profession with weapons armed, traits purchased, and utilities set. The ones with those set that have mobility will win every time. Claiming a profession is something, as a whole, when the fact is that only a certain build can fit that criteria, is unreasonably bias.

Littlefeather.8623:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Littlefeather.8623:

Toughness should include some Condi resistance…

Then Knight’s gear becomes THE best set in the game because nothing would counter high toughness.

No.

Well my friend, some classes have very low health pools. While those classes have condi removals, they do not have enough condi removal for the frequency of condi application. Condi resistance in Toughness stat would let me play my power build with low HP and some condi removal without dropping from ranged condi’s in less than 8 seconds. But you must be on the other side of the fence…

As a player who regularly plays all 8 professions (although I admit I favor my engineer), I have to disagree. There is not an issue with condition removal availability to any of the professions in the lowest health pool.

Your problem is you simply refuse to build for it. Now your here lobbying for changes to the game that suit your build to remove its weakness. That is just the thing though, you should and will have a solid weakness in any build in this game. If not, then you need to lobby for a change, because it is over powered.

The turret only has a 240 range. You simply have to attack it from outside that range and it can do nothing to you.

Turrets have poor toughness and very low health. They are easily destroyed.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

I didn’t know this thread was pointing out a problem, the thread is just trying to determine which classes can escape the best.

Personally, the fact that so many place warriors at number one or two is very much a pointed out problem if you as me. If there is no balance issue to discuss, shouldn’t it be removed to an appropriate forums?

spoj.9672:

Condition damage is independant of power and precision. Power builds synergise which is why knights would do more. Doesnt change that dire is too strong and the risk for rabid is non existant. Theres imbalances all over many of the gearsets. Any defensive gear makes the game completely faceroll. What i dislike is the reversed risk vs reward when dealing with condi damage. But it wouldnt bother me if there was actually a proper glass condi set which actually out damaged the others while having no passive defence.

So what your saying is that although other have broken the damage down, as well as posting video after video of evidence, you have no actual proof and suggest it is a problem on your word alone? The risk/reward is the same. That has been proven solidly. As to a pure glass condi set, I would love that on occasion. Perhaps main stat condition damage, precision for the condition proc traits, and say 5% condition dueation on each piece of gear, weapon, and accessory, so one would have 100% condition duration with a full set of gear and 6 points in the trait line of condition damage with nightmare runes.

style.6173:

For condi, you really only need to care about condi damage and condi duration. Because of only needing two stats, it allows people to spec much more defensively and still do a lot of damage.

Incorrect. They care greatly about precision, as it proc the various traits that proc conditions, as well as optimal sigil procs for sigil of torment for example.

Id direct damage users go for all 3 offensive stats, they greatly out damage any condi build with two.

I agree, there was never a condition meta. It always makes me laugh how one or two people make panic post on a subject, then everyone else just reads it, absorbs it, then regurgitates it back in other post and threads. Which is precisely where misnomers like this come from.

Having said that, yes, there is a very solid point to taking toughness. Every single skill in the game that applies a damaging condition, also applies some direct damage. Basically every damage skill of either type has a level of direct damage to ti, that toughness negates. Various professions have traits, utilities, and weapons skills that you balance in to deal with conditions.

Ozzy Toxin, all I get from all of that is that you must be a very poor sPvP player compared to myself. I do not have most of those troubles. How many of those professions have you leveled to 80 or played hours of sPvP with? I know once I leveled all 8 professions, my perspective on them individually changed drastically.

The one that has me really scratching my head, is the turret engineer. Turrets are 100% immobile. Why, for the sake of all that is sane, are you going into melee range of a pile of turrets?

What build are you using, and how are you playing it? What role are you fulfilling on your team with it?

alamore.1974:

lol get better.

You cannot put this anywhere in a post and expect to maintain a serious discussion on the matter. This exact comment could be used right back at anyone using their blinds, teleports (don’t lie, we all know necros have em), dodges, stun breaks, and massive health pool access, in such a poor way, that they demand stability to win fights. No one is suggesting that of coarse, but if you continue with the “lol get better.” jibs and some might start.

Andele.1306:

coglin.1867 – let me explain this is the way that even a idiot undestands this: Because necros have 0 of the following: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade (everyone has base 2 dodges ofc) http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Teleport (shadow step section counts too; all of the necro ones require pre casts and are easily countered, while all others are get out of jail free aoe targeted ranged cc ignoring blinks).

Wouldn’t even an idiot grasp that it would be more reasonable to ask for one of those benefits you listed then ? If they are so beneficial that you feel another profession, with a ridiculously lower health pool, having one of those skills, is in turn, equal to a profession with a much larger health pool and stability. Then clearly one of those skills is more then enough value.

Let the skill apply aegis perhaps? Something that most players will not feel is as over powering as stability.

Why do you throw thing in there like teleport. Because spectral walk is a teleport, and you use teleporting as a skill you demand is a solution to your issue, how is there a problem? How does another profession having a teleport, proclaim your chosen main profession to be in need of stability. Wouldn’t that standard suggest that engineers and rangers need more stability because they do not have teleports?

I think you misunderstand how the function processes. Your explanation does not coincide with how the servers actual calculate the DoTs. I deduce that you do not work in either the gaming or programming industry. Is that correct?

Chaith.8256:

You do need Incendiary Powder.. Even if you play with bombs/Pistol offhand or otherwise.

You need it because when players decide to play defensively, your burn up-time with Rocket Kick, Fire Bomb, and Blowtorch becomes basically 0%. They’re all either slow abilities, with tiny reach, or both. You cannot defeat competent players who don’t want to be defeated without a certain level of reliable damage.

Sorry, but I do not buy this at all. You are literally stating that if a player uses good defensive play, some how, magically, all of our skills become useless and our only damage is from procs? How do you justify or explain that?

In know way, did you offer any logical explanation for your claim that others cannot land those skills. Neither rocket kick or blow torch are particularly slow or any more or less easy to avoid then other P/S skills.

Your suggesting that you would not be a capable player as an engineer Chaith, without this one single trait? If that is the case, why are you, personally not making threads to get the profession repaired?

I do not understand the complaint. Well, I guess, I do to an extent, in the context that every little change they make in an update, people care to whine and complain about it. It simply gets old that we see such wasteful and cluttering threads of this nature. If you are going to claim something is a problem, you need to provide at evidence, and not force your opinion at the community as if it was fact.

Carighan.6758:

Aberrant.6749:

Which one I would choose would be totally dependent on how many conditions actually reach the next 1s mark. Conds, unlike crit dmg/power, often gain little or nothing from increasing the duration an additional 12%.

That is assuming you fight 1v1 only, which is rarely the case. And that you only ever apply single conditions of non-stacking ones, never refresh, never extend.

What are you talking about?
How does basing a discussion on how it effects specific condition application skills durations, have anything to do with how many opponents your fighting?

Nothing you said makes any sense in relation to the post you quoted. He is stating that the original duration of a applied condition is directly relevant to duration percentage value. For example, the engineers fragmentation shot applies a 2s bleed. No matter how you cut it, this food does not in itself, effect that skills damage in any way. Engineer pistol static shock is a 3s blind/confusion. 40% food adds 1s. You only get a 33% possible damage increase.

igmolicious.5986:

I honestly used it and didn’t really notice a huge difference, so haven’t used it since. It may be more useful for a single-target build, but with most engineer “preferred” builds being AOE centered,

I would not speculate enough to say most or not, but I have to agree that in my experience, I see a vast amount of players looking for AoE builds. The only real situation I see IP being particularly valuable is in P/S or rifle builds with all elixirs, or gadget builds, both in 1 v 1 situation.

igmolicious.5986:

I can’t really see Incendiary Powder being reliable in application to the intended target. Honestly, I wouldn’t care if they changed it to be more like the current iteration of Dhuumfire, and I doubt many others would either. I think most people who are questioning the cry in this post to change it are doing so because there really isn’t any driving NEED to change it. Again, engineers can’t spread conditions like necromancers, so this is a single-target only trait.

Yeah, with bomb kit being our highest damage out put, it is popular. Thus our AoE burning is popular. I have to agree with you igmolicious, I find it hard to understand where the complaint comes from. It seems to me it generally comes from those who do not really understand the profession or have a grasp on what most players are using.

Honestly, to me it seems like another case of using the mythical met conjured up by perception used to make complaints that are not grounded in the reality of what most players actually use.

BlackBeard.2873:

the only two that are really an issue are Withdraw and Healing Turret.

Really? So if you only actually have a problem with 2 skills, why do you make a thread listing 7 heals you are demanding changes for?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Bacon.4918:

None of these skills need changing in my opinion.

the healing skills are fine.

some people just want to complain.

Ahh, now I see the answer to my question above.

BlackBeard.2873:

Withdraw cooldown is very low, is IMPOSSIBLE to interrupt the healing (even with something like static field/ring of warding), and comes on a class that has plenty of disengages if they had to cover their heal. This means that withdraw is very likely to be cast a couple times during the fight, and trying to wait for the heal to offload damage doesn’t work b/c it will be available so quickly.

Honestly, with all of the issues of small things that add up to create issue with the thief, how it is a single healing skill that you draw to as a problem? I am not saying it is not, but it seems to me as if it was a starting point for you to complain about skills that are not a problem.

They “seem” to have everything? Do you feel it is possible it may just be perception? Perhaps you simply have not learned how to counter them yet?

I ask because if they were as strong as you feel, doesn’t seem odd that they were the second to least played profession in both the EU and NA ToL?

I have always considered rifle more of a sustained+CC weapon.

Johje Holan.4607:

Dhampyr.2104:

morrolan.9608:

“Thats just like your opinion man.” It does affect matchups and if others don’t like that effect then it is a problem for them. Plus when you try and have a comp between such unequal servers as if they are on equal footing with better prizes going to players on servers who finish higher then it is a problem to a large number of players.

You’re absolutely right, definitely my opinion and I should rephrase regarding the “problem”… What I meant is that it’s not ArenaNet’s problem. WvW was designed to be unfair. Complaining about that unfairness is pointless imo – it’s working as intended.

WvW was not designed to be unfair, thats just a foolish statement.

And given the level of discontent about the population imbalance/coverage issue, it is Anets problem. They designed the game, they’re the only one’s that can correct it.

Foolish? There are multiple dev post in which they specifically state “WvW is not designed to be fair”………………….Unless you have any evidence they have stated other wise, we will work of of established dev statements and not random statements okay?

I do not main a ranger, but I leveled one to 80 and I do like it in concept. I have always loved pet professions since EQ. The recent responsiveness changes to the pet did help. That said, I can agree that the long bow needs some help. As I see it, an auto attack should not have such inconsistency, nor should it be so easily avoided.

As I see it, most of the skills out side of the scope of of the AA are not in bad shape. Yet, to play at the range benefit of the long bow, you need the AA for sustained damage. As well, I think the fact that you have to put 4 points into two separate lines for the traits to benefit long bow where other professions get them at 2 and 4 points in one line, or generally all in one trait together, should define the problem in itself. Not to mention the fact that they felt read the wind would be a trait to add, shows that it is clear the speed of the projectiles are a problem.

Oakwind.6187:

It’s been most interesting to read up on all the adamant opposition to a reliable source of Stability for the Necromancer. I wonder if most of the complaints would tone down if Runes of Nightmare got deleted?

No, I think It is a “scholar” profession getting stability as a whole. The king of conditions, with the highest health pool, having the ability to eliminate its only true weakness in battle.

You will simply not convince anyone out of the select 12 of you who keep arguing for it.

As a whole, the necromancer has the highest average cool down on stun breakers. Followed by the engineer. I think the best route to go is to change all of the 50s-60 cool down stun breakers to a 40s cool down. Asking for stability is over reaching in the eyes of most players, given their ability to put out so much condition damage, combined with the high natural health pool, as well as the added health pool of death shroud.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Pressing 6, 6, and F rapidly takes a lot of practice? We’re not talking about the overcharge blast, remember. This is just cast, overcharge, pick up. It’s not difficult in the slightest.

It is more physical actions to use that process then any other heal skill in the game. As well, it has to be done in a certain time frame, unlike something like mantras that can be primed ahead of time. Just sayin.

Cecilia.5179:

What would you do with the -% condition duration food?

Leave it alone completely. to answer your question.

Cecilia.5179:

oZii.2864:

Cecilia.5179:

+ / – 40% condition duration food is pretty absurd. It gives more condition duration than investing 6 points into a traitline (+300 bonus to non duration stats). If a food gave +400 power, I’m sure it would be very popular, maybe even the most popular food, and it would not be reasonable for everyone who’s not running the +400 power food to run a +400 toughness food to counter this. I would say that these foods are OP and I do not use that term lightly.

That being said, if they removed it, condition builds might begin to disappear in the shadow of power builds. I think that reducing these foods to +/- 20% a is very reasonable compromise. The food would still be very strong, but not so ridiculously strong that one needs to run it’s exact opposite to counter it.

+400 power is not countered by +400 toughness and +400 any stat doesn’t equal +40% condition duration. They are totally different stats that act differently.

If condition damage was front loaded damage then you could make that comparison. Even -40% condition duration food gives you 70 vitality to go with it which helps against direct and condition builds.

I was aiming for the comparison of the traitlines, where 30% condition duration and +300 to a stat are achieved with the same investment and therefore, in a way, equal (Power and Toughness may not directly counter each other, but there are no stats I can think of that directly counter each other like Condition Duration). By comparison, It makes +40% condition duration look very strong, but if you insist that the comparison is invalid, scratch it and focus on the proposal. It’s not hard to prove what a +40% condi duration boost brings to the table. Especially what you compare it with any other food. I think +20% is far more reasonable for a food effect.

I agree. You absolutely right. They need to change the trait lines value so that every point invested adds 10% duration.

This is a great suggestion Cecelia and I completely agree. This would be a great way to reasonably change the food to 20% duration.

The only question is, since in other threads in which the damage for ferocity, power, precision, condition damage, and condition duration food had been broken down to its maximum damage per second for each profession, what do you do with the fact that the food will give the least benefit compared to all other foods by 30%-50% value?

DeadlySynz.3471:

Despite what people say or “you” might think, you are not being punished for this. You are still clocking PPT and capping the map which should be a walk in the park. If your playing during this time slot it’s because you choose to, so that would make it your own fault. If people don’t like it, change servers to another time slot where your PPT is worth more and the fights are plenty.

Wait, so your saying it is my fault I have a night shift job so on my off days I game on a late schedule. There for I have to get less value out of my effort simply because this doesn’t accommodate your personal needs?

How about if we simply punish your time slot instead. By your same brilliant logic that is fair right? It will simply offer more benefits to play in the off time and spread folks out.

I mean heaven forbid we have players taking advantage of your lack of effert in what you call “off hours”. That is simply absurd right? What kind of jerks play an all out, 24/7 territory, war game mod, would be so rude as to take some of the territory while your doing what ever it is you do, and not defending it…………Clearly the correct coarse of logic is to redesign the entire function of the points system to met your personal needs.

By the lore of this game, magic is supernatural and defies the laws of nature and physics.

That sounds like polar opposites to me.

Personally I do not feel harassing power outside the scope of science, nature, and physics, is actual technology. As I see it, the powers of magic in a scientific setting are to unreliable. It strikes me as comparing an ghost operating a bicycle to that of a combustion or electric engine powering one. To me, they are not comparable.

By minority, do you mean how out of the millions of players who purchased the game, 17 of them are requesting this?

By agents working the forums to hold off the minorities, do you refer to those who simply disagree with you based on their experience, trying to point out the fact that your the minority?

I have yet to see a valid reason this skill needs to be given stability.

I have to agree that I feel it was very premature to make a thread with no real experience. All this does is clog up the sub forums with unnecessary thread that add congestion.

Are you suggesting that kits cause are OP somehow? If so, perhaps you should actually explain that. Unless you have some specifics that display an actual problem, you should have either made a discussion thread in the engineer sub forum or displayed enough patients or wisdom to use the profession enough to grasp it before creating unnecessary congestion in this sub forum.

Actually, prior to the change there were thousands of post demanding they change it to its current state. Because players disliked using a cleanse or skill that breaks immobilize, then immediately being immobilized again with the skill that cleansed it, on cool down.

I am not saying I agree. I argued against it and thought it was a poorly thought out request. None the less, the demand for it was over whelming.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Checking back to the first refrenced post helps

The context was a PvP setting, showing how Foot in the Grave really isn’t good stability. To get any sort of good CC negation, the necro has to flash death shroud, which makes them extremely vulnerable to everything else. While the situation given was against a Hambow warrior, any profession could have been substituted for “Warrior” and the same point would remain true.

I re-read the original post of this thread, and its topic. neither of which designate sPvP. Honestly the OP should have specified. Thus, I did not believe every post had to specifically encompass one game mode.

Do you consider the engineer solid at CC ? I do. Yet the community acknowledges necros as a hard counter to the profession as a whole. My issue here is that individual professional stability for the necro is not the problem. Builds like hambow are the problem

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necros are in a great spot for WvW, which is why it’s referred to as the GWEN zerg meta and not the GWEE, GWEM, GWER, or GWET meta. The reason for that is because they have lots of people that are peeling for them naturally (and lots of life force from deaths). In small scale PvP, this isn’t the case.

Yes, I agree, they are great in WvW.

In small scale PvP a need for personal professional stability is not the case either. It depends heavily on what build one is fighting against. Hambows are tough, but S/S warrior are fairly easy game. CC/pwer build engies are tough. Condi engies are easy pickins’. Blackwater style mesmers are not that tough, but S/S power mesmers are.

I feel to suggest necros have trouble in general is not the case. They have trouble with certain builds, while dominating others.

They do not need stability any more then thieves, mesmers, or ele’s.

What build do you use again Shockwave?

I see you have been asked at least once, yet you avoid answering. I would like to believe it was simply an over sight.

Would you go ahead and link that for us please? It would help in giving context to your statements.

Also, you mention necromancer in your OP, and make an odd comparison. I have a fair bit of time on my necro. i would love to fight my necro against you on your engie. you make a comparison to necro and ele, completely out of reasonable or comparative context.

I would gladly meet any anytime on my necro against your engineer to see if it pans out that it is as imbalanced as you imply in the OP. Seem reasonable to you?

Shockwave.1230:

Given that Engi has access to pretty much every mechanic in the game……. Mistform (Elixer S)

Mist form is a mechanic?

Isn’t mist form immune to chill, immobilize, and cripple?

Is elixir S immune to chill, immobilize, and cripple?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

coglin.1867:

Oakwind.6187:

At the moment it’s a checklist: Do you have full LF, and is he bad? If either is no, you’re going to have a very bad time. If you want to capitalize on the 3s Stability, you can’t stay in Death Shroud. You flick it on and off, thus losing any absorption it could otherwise provide. It’s not good functionality. And yes I’m going to refer to Balanced Stance because kitten you, that’s why.

So what does a warriors balance or imbalance have to do with the necromancer?

In this particular case, you could easily substitute “Warrior” for pretty much any profession. Engineers are the most likely after Warriors to have lots of hard CC, but Guardians, Eles, and Mesmers all have high CC builds where the exact same questions apply.

Substitute them for what purpose? I ask because the context is very relevant. Are we talking dungeons? Designated boon stripping in WvW groups? Condition heavy debunker? World bosses?

The boon corruption for front liners + AoE transmuting of condition into boons + unblockable marks (loaded with soft CC) are invaluable in a coordinated group. At least in my experience. In the WvW group context this is extremely powerful. As well, they have stacked stability from the guardians/warriors, are stay 1200 away from the front line and have no concern of being CCed at all anyway.

Shockwave.1230:

The great thing in spite of any of this or anything else is that as an engi, I’m still always able to counterplay the opposition’s weapons set.

If that hambow is coming, I know to swap to the skills that will counter him as he swaps between his weapons, so that he can’t get a leg up on me be his weapon choice. It’s best to do that against any profession not just warriors.

And what weapon set it is that counters hambow exactly? For you that is. Different folks use different builds, obviously. What build do you use? What weapon set do you use to counter hambow?

As well, I am curious, you speak about defending against these builds, how do you, personally, kill them?

Bhawb.7408:

A Necro who took all the blind access would be an absolutely awful build, in general any build is going to have at most 3 options, plague, deathly swarm, and then either WoD or SoS. I literally listed how many options each class has, and we’re definitely not on the high end, we’re right about the middle.

Would it? Is seems to me that this is your subjective opinion. Yet in all of your comments and comparisons, you state X profession has this or that active defence. You assume they function well and are in every build as well.

So which is it? Are you comparing professions, balance, or builds. Because this is a discussion about a specific skill and stability. We are not discussing builds. But your the one that brought up what ptofessions have access to, ignoring whether are not they are good for a build, and posted to us as if they are used in every build for the point you are trying to make. Why do you deny that same argument when it works against your point?

Bhawb.7408:

And it doesnt’ matter if blinds work or not,

It does matter. As you have stated it as fact, that they do not work , as have others. Thus it represents context for those reading the entire thread in order to comment.

Bhawb.7408:

we’re in the exact same point, which is the entire point of this entire thread (which people seem to blatantly ignore to try to pick at one tiny sentence here and there): Necromancer has, by far, the least active damage negation in the entire game bar none and as such has an even stronger need for stability than other classes, whilst getting only one general way to access it that is not reachable for many builds.

Active defence? Like on-demand Protection, repeated cleansing or transmuting conditions, purging the offensive buffs off enemies, fear-wall-blocking, fear, and … saved it for last, the entirety of Death Shroud?

Perhaps you should read the actual title of the thread, and the original post. This threads topic has nothing to do with damage negation. It has to do with whether or not it is balance to put stability on a specific skill, and to a lesser degree, the necromancer related to CC.

The OP mentions nothing of “damage negation” as you claim it does. As a matter of fact, damage is not mention in either the title or the OP. Not certain where you got your misunderstanding. Perhaps for the sake of the discussion, a review is in order?

Bhawb.7408:

We rely on being not CCed to function, and our only ways to not be CCed rely on us not being CCed. The very mechanics we use to counter CC are countered by CC. This is a problem that does not exist in a single other profession,

This is absolutely incorrect. Lets have a quick example. Condi engineer or mesmer encounters a necro. They apply condition damage. Necro cleanses it, yet at the same time, sends it back to said mesmer or engineer. The two professions with the lest condi cleanse. These two professions use soft CC or condi CC as their main ability to control a fight. Yet as a necro, we can cleanse it and put it on them. That is countering their counter.

Bhawb.7408:

we ask for literally the least powerful, most easily countered mechanic to achieve this, but instead people say “well you have a high HP pool so its fair”.

How do you counter stability on the profession that is the best at countering conditions? Soft CC doesn’t work, as they clear it and move it to you. As well, they have the highest health pool, and a secondary health pool.

Bhawb.7408:

My desk is practically broken with how many times I’ve smashed my head into it after reading some of the posts here.

Sorry to hear you are having trouble accepting that others have varying opinions from you. Perhaps you should seek some help. It is never a good sign when someone harms themselves or their property simply because others in the world disagree with their opinion.

spoj.9672:

And staff ele has high dmg aoe skills on low cooldowns to suppliment the auto attack. Necro doesnt. Its a pure utility weapon.

Umm, what does this have to do with the necromancer? But if you wish to be serious, all of that can be blocked completely. Marks can be made unblockable.

jimmyimo.2089:

dancingmonkey.4902:

jimmyimo.2089:

I"m not calling this a main source of damage; it is Engineers whom repeatedly claim that you cannot ‘nerf’ this trait because they will lack damage.

This is also not about the amount of damage it outputs, it is about that you cannot out skill it.

So again, what about all of the other passive traits on every profession that you “cannot out skill”, why do you ignore those and single this one out? Where does the clear bias come from?

I refuse to answer you as your statement is ridiculous. A mesmers’ clone death you can avoid, you do not have to kill clones; they can force them to “die” but this can be easily out ranged (the range on the debil clones is very small). And for your information, I am a multiclass player and am however not biased by any thing.

What my personal opinion is about Sigils such as Fire, Air and any thing that cannot be out-skilled? Its’ garbage. Remove it out of the game. However, this is about Engineers and Incendiary Powder. Make an other topic about it, this is not the right place.

->
All in all, I would much rather have this trait removed and have the damage I can achieve with it just have the damage spread out across the damage skills on the P/P, P/S, and rifle.
->

I would gladly support this idea too as long as its’ not on the auto attack and still requires the trait.

Interesting. You suggest you have no bias, then go on to say it is okay on your chosen profession of mesmer. Defend mesmer, then go on to say this issue is about the engineer.

So again, what about all of the other passive traits on every profession that you “cannot out skill”, why do you ignore those and single this one out? Where does the clear bias come from?

jimmyimo.2089:

You mean, you will finally have a weakness like every other spec in the game?

You mean such as conditions? We have the lowest rate per minute of condition removal out of all of the professions. We have no stun breaks with less then a 40s stun break either.

As well, we lose a slot for a stun breaker or condition cleanse in order to have a kit to swap too. Thus to have a second weapon set, we have to sacrifice a utility slot. Personally, I feel that is a massive weakness.