Stealth becomes extremely powerful against players when said players rely on their skills more than their skill.
Seems like an odd thing to say when a thief, for example, has multiple skills that give them instant stealth. Particularly in the context of thieves that rely on stealth.
The stun breaker was added because we had no kits with a stun breaker. At leat that is how i understand it.
It does seem logical to me that a shield be a defensive weapon. That would be consistent with the other professions shield skills as well.
Maybe they had 15 engineer mains in the guild. Did you think to ask him? Or did you assume and jump to conclusions like you accuse him of?
A good guild generally looks for good people. As long as the game has been out, almost everyone has multiple professions.
What about a turret engineer makes them imvincible?
Engis have the best variety of builds in the game outside of warriors. Not to mention transmute, healing turret, super elixir, and elixir C. Also healing turret is one of the shortest CD heals in the game and it’s a free 2 condi clear on a 1/4 second cast time. Not too shabby. Mesmers would kill to have engineer level of condi clear… Just sayin.
How many hours do you have on your engie? What build do you use that you feel handles conditions well?
I’m not saying that engis handle conditions well… But saying that engineers have the worst condition removal in this game is LOLOL… +
What profession is worse it it’s productive overall build and why?
one of the inherent problems of the profession, is that it is balanced around a minimum of at least one kit filling a utility slot. A slot other professions can arm a dedicated condition removal, mobility skill, or sun breaker, the is otherwise not avaliable to the engineer.
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Engis have the best variety of builds in the game outside of warriors. Not to mention transmute, healing turret, super elixir, and elixir C. Also healing turret is one of the shortest CD heals in the game and it’s a free 2 condi clear on a 1/4 second cast time. Not too shabby. Mesmers would kill to have engineer level of condi clear… Just sayin.
How many hours do you have on your engie? What build do you use that you feel handles conditions well?
If Engis had great condi removal on top of:
- Incredible CC, single and AoE
- Incredible mobility
- Perma dodging
- The best AI build in the game
- AoE Damage
- Stealth
- Best active heal in the game
Then we would see a whole new level of broken that old school Hambow and Spirit Ranger would be humbled by.
Link us the build with all of that please.
The only thing is, the data is irrelevant. I am not suggesting this to take anything away from your effort FinalPatriot. but simply based on the fact that skill level and play style combined with varying trait choices will very easily cause extremely different results and experiences from one player to the next.
Personally, I feel that you guys need to develop a knowledgeable understanding of the profession before complaining. Then perhaps you can even educate those your complaining about in the OP.
Yea thanks for everything you said, I do know a lot about engis, I might need to educate more people in my server like you suggest.
I wasn’t suggest you lacked knowledge about engies, that part was more for the 2 posters just after your OP. I love how people prefer to cling to GWEN instead of clinging to fun.
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Hmmm, AoE stabiliy, fumigate clears 5 AoE conditions off of 5 players every 12 seconds, AoE damage with AoE heals a plenty. Multiple blast finishers. Great survivability. The ability to put out heavy direct damage or heavy condition damage, depending on the gear. And that is just in the one build I was running last night.
Yeah who would want any of that. I command on a T1 server on my engie regularly, and I offer a lot to the guys following me. We have 2 other engies that command regularly. Others on our server are educated to the engineers benefits
Personally, I feel that you guys need to develop a knowledgeable understanding of the profession before complaining. Then perhaps you can even educate those your complaining about in the OP.
Yeah, thieves are only OP at solo roaming in 1v1 situation. One small role (generally a useless one that contributes little to nothing to the server) in one aspect of the game.
/closethread warriors have been getting nerfs the last 3 patches. If you think warrior is OP then you haven’t face/played a thief.
Sure thought that through poorly. You feeling of a thief being OP (on some levels I agree) is irrelavent to the fact that so many feel the warrior has many OP builds.
This basically^
People want this game to play itself and for them to be successful with minimal effort.
Warriors aren’t hard to fight against, if you actually try to learn the game and do well.
Odd you would say that, considering the majority of the player base who have leveled multiple or as in my case, all professions to 80, would feel what you stated applies to the warrior far and beyond any other profession.
The problem is that without cleansing ire we had to use all of the cleansing skills and traits in into a build which left no room for diversity. To survive in a condition heavy meta we were basically forced into a build so focused on cleansing that we couldn’t do what we were meant to do which is CC and damage. Having cleansing tied to our burst skills is a great mechanic. It just needs to be toned down a bit.
There have been two dev statements posted and mentions in ready ups or forum post. The more recent states word for word in the weakness catagory
“Overrun by conditions” and the other says weak to conditions, and relying on friends to assist them with control conditions.
That is not the problem, or even a problem. It is stated that it is intended to be the design.
tell me how cleansing ire nullifying an intended weakness again.
Most of us let logic tell us, You need him to explain it too you? When conditions are your stated weakness, yet you have so many skills to either nullify conditions all together, be immune to their application, or cleanse them better then most other professions that are not intended to have them as a weakness,
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To you and all others who seem to not get this point :
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/warrior/please read.
“Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle. Adrenaline fuels their offensive power—the longer warriors stay in a fight, the more dangerous they become.”
It is literally the first adjective used to describe the class.
Exactly. It states speed, not mobility. Glad you pointed out that the mobility is a large problem when they have so much of it.
Has to be the worst auto attack in the game.
Stability already plagues this game with too much access and stack ability. It completely can negate an entire build if you are a CC spec. If your complaining about being CCed, then learn the CC tells (almost all of them have one).
I have leveled all 8 professions to 80 in WvW and PvP. I only run stability on my warrior and guardian. I have no problem dealing with CC on any profession with stun breakers, dodges, and intelligence.
All the irrational demand for stability signifies, is a demand for a mindless immunity to control builds that skilled players successfully deal with on a daily basis.
I spent 8 hours yesterday commanding on my D/D necro on T1 server battles and never once felt like I needed stability. What I needed was mobility.
I do not agree with the OP odd weapon swap substitute idea, but I do feel there is a need to re balance some of the skills in some way that a kit less engineer has equivalent value as one running a kit.
@OP: No new boon. Condi damage just needs a nerf.
Got any damage comparison evidence to back that up?
Your statement is a bit hard to swallow when it has been shown 10 times over that in every profession, a soldiers gear build does congruent damage to any dire build. In many cases, the soldiers builds did more damage.
What do others think of the overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?
I think all in all it is in a good place, but as with anything in anygame, it can use some small adjustments.
Do you like the current overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?
Absolutely.
What can be done to improve overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?
Adjustments to Some of the condition skills that are on the OP side of things. I think conditions as a whole are fins, they simply need to adjust the skills that apply unrealistic stack amounts or durations, compared to the rest of the skills out there. Perhaps make trait adjustments that slime down some of the combinations that add to much condition damage in one skill use because of traits that support it.
As to boons, honestly, I feel that for the most part, boons are not in too bad of a place. I simply wish we couls stop seeing threads for every professions demanding silly things they do not need, such as more stability or protection up time.
As too CC, I see little trouble there. I have leveled every profession to 80, predominantly in WvW, and I have little trouble dealing with conditions or CC on any of my professions.
I do question how the dev team plays though, because there balancing philosophies from well over a year ago, and the ones they posted recently around the ready up, often are not even remotely congruent to my personal experiences, or to what I hear many other players mention. I do not know if it is me, and the circle of players I talk to or the devs and how they play, that cause the inconsistencies.
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difference between the 2?
one has -% duration food and possibly runes, knows how to clear conditions, and above all he isnt a bad player.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So your telling me that instead of raging on the forums that something was OP when you do not build to counter it, as some of the above posters have, this guy put counters in his build? And it works? Wow, that is a true stroke of genius, It is a shame no one has every thought of that before.
Burst condition is stupid.
Would you say it is more or less stupid the using the term burst in conjunction with a damage over time component?
im in for condis being nerfed a little.
or Buff condition dmg but remove the Auto attack application
That doesn’t make any sense. Why shouldn’t condition builds apply conditions on AA? Engineers only MH condition weapon does 2 bleeds on AA. Thats what? 300ish damage on a high condi damage build? Yet I can double that with the rifle, its direct damage counterpart, in soldiers gear.
The problem is, many of you arguing against conditions are not present any factual damage comparison. Whats worse is, you use the very very select few skills that are OP to represent condition damage as a whole.
The fact is, that there is nothing wrong with conditions in the least. There are simply very specific weapon+trait combinations that can be on the OP side. You do yourselves a great disservice by making unsubstantiated claims about the damage type as a whole, because the devs will literally ignore that. They have stated hundreds of times that they ignore post of this nature.
If you have a specific build, or trait, and weapon combination that you feel is too strong, then present it for discussion. Don’t regurgitate what you read in other post about dire gear or precision, as it has already been solidly proven that every profession has soldiers gear builds that have equal, if not greater damage output.
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Make a boon that does the same as protection but for conditions? 33% reduction from condi dmg.
Fix
This statement doesn’t make any sense considering it has already been proven 10 times over that in almost every profession there is a soldiers guild build that out damages a dire build.
Your making a lot of claims, but offering no facts. While the rest of us have already broken down the numbers to educate players such as yourself, in the previous 29 threads on this topic.
The only condition build that gains any considerable advantage from precision is the Engi with Incendiary Powder. P/D Thieves, PU condi Mesmers, and S/S condi Warriors can go pure dire and are still the most powerful dueling specs in the game.
Also, since the Dhuumfire nerf, precision on a condi Necro is negligible. Just go dire and chain fear with Terror and stack conditions with Spite Signet and Corrupt Boon.
You should educate yourself a little more about the traits. On the engineer alone, you left out sharpshooter, Infused Precision, Go for the Eyes, Precise Sights, and Bunker Down. Now I challange you to prove that none of those aid a condition build.
The importance of precision when using conditions is extremely overestimated. It doesn’t actually increase condition damage, just the amount of conditions. And it does a poor job at that. Dire nets you the same amount of condition damage stat, precision is often not worth it.
Umm, I hate to use things like facts, logic, and common sense and all, but how does increasing the amount of conditions, their stack level, or their duration not increase a players condition damage output?
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If conditions weren’t so broken, then why does everyone in WvW run either -40% condi duration, often with melandru runes, or +40% condi food?
Well for one, everyone doesn’t run that. You are sorely mistaken to assume the small circle of players you know, represent the rest of the millions that own this game. In my experience on T1 servers most players do not run this at all.
The game is not balanced around 1v1 and with a group, the condition removal available negates them to a large extent. The larger the group, the more conditions are negated.
You apear to be out of touch with what I am understanding is run, based on the conversations I have with those that follow me when I am commanding.
Personally, I would prefer to see this skill simply make a ring of flames around the engineers location at the tome of use, instead of dealing with angling it just right to use as a ground targeting skill
Redeploying turrets as you describe it sounds nice, but I think it might work better as a trait, instead of a basic feature.
Right now, a good engi with the right turret build can hold a point pretty much indefinitely against just about any one attacker, and can last pretty long against two, as long as a staff ele or a condi-focused build doesn’t show up. Giving that sort of build the mobility to chase other players down without exposing themselves might be a little too good, unless they have to give up something else in the trait tree to do so.
And this is why engineers can’t have nice things. The whole profession is so tuned for SPVP it is sickening.
I agree. Me and my guild enjoy some good pvp time, but we enjoy the other areas of the game just as much. Probably more where wvw is concerned. The problem is that they push Esports on the community, instead of having allowed Esports to have developed organically, thus punishing the other aspects of the game. They need to get over the self made inhibitors they created for themselves and balance pvp 100% separately, and commit to that rather then only giving it partial effort
After reading all of Ozzy Toxins spam of post, I really have to question his play style combined with his build.
He is making issues that feel like minor inconveniences, at best, to me when I play, as if they are game breaking and world ending disasters.
Ozzy, have you spent much time or leveled any other professions? I know that I felt I was knowledgeable on my main at first, until I spent the time in WvW to level all the other 7 professions to 80. Once I had invested that time on the other professions, I learned a great deal that changed my understanding of each profession as a whole. Perhaps leveling some other professions and learning their limitation, would do you a great srvice in understanding the necromancer better.
When you look at how many tool tips are inaccurate even after al this time the game has been out, one can only imagine how many things are flagged incorrectly on the back end that we never see. Those things are obscured to most players, so they do not get brought to the fore front enough to get fixed most likely.
Engineers biggest weaknes is is stability especialy in WvW and no toss elixir B is useless. Also we need something for group more than blasts.
Could you please qualify your statement? How exactly is it useless?
How is a lack of stability a weakness per se? When the profession has plenty of applicable stun breakers?
Only 2.5k hours. But please be specific where I was wrong, and we can discuss it.
Sure buddy.
Low to no group stability
Toss elixir B. 5s stability in an AoE every 30s. And that is without any coold down reduction traits or anything.
Low to no group swiftness,
Elixir B. Toss elixir B, Elixir H all offer AoE swiftness
moderate condition clear
Actually, this is the engineers weakness. Although elixirs it is solid AOE condition removal. Not to mention 3-5 conditions removed per player target in an AoE every 12 seconds with fumigate.
low might generation except
this one made me laugh.
in marginal builds and very limited damage in a build that would match the armor rating and vitality a Warrior gets in full zerk gear.
Why would a front line commander run zerker gear in WvW?
So yes, I got through your first paragraph, and if I were you, and I am telling you this as a friend here, I would not claim 2500 hours on a profession, if your going to express such a general lack of understanding of it.
Sigil of Air+Fire. Easily hits over 5k damage every 10 seconds.
Dhuumfire only procs on Life Blast now. Don’t try to pass it off as a “random, uncounterable” proc.
I’m going to stop responding to you now, because you’re just straight up not prepared to have this conversation. Life Blast is an autoattack, and it’s even better that its 100% activation chance instead of random. Unless the necro is just straight up terrible, he’s not going to somehow be unable to land even one during a ds. Or should we just call constantly available projectile reflection a counter? Newsflash, when you can get it that counters half the game.
Sigil of Air/Fire denies the usage of on swap sigils, do ~1k damage per shot even using a berserker build, and cannot crit. You will need to get procs on both the exact instant that they are up to get 5k/10s, demanding that you continually hit your opponent with 0 interruption. You can prevent yourself from being continually hit. You cannot prevent that one auto from activating its condition load for 10k unless you perfectly avoid every single hit.
Now go respond to the actual arguments of the post instead of cherry picking the examples you thought you could challenge, and stop trying to pass off this poor fact checking as a counterargument.
The problem I am noticing here, is that you are claiming one specific auto attack, in a specific builds as the representation of all conditions. If a certain trait combination or build makes one single situation OP and your sitting here claiming conditions as a whole are OP, then you have no right to ridicule others comments as uninformed.
Especially when you are talking about IP specifically and claiming it causes 10,000 condition damage auto attacks. Even with full investment of 100% condition duration, IP doesn’t do over 6500 condition damage. At 100% condition duration, in full condition gear your auto attacks will do about 6300 total damage in bleeds and direct damage combined. Add in IP and that is 12,800 for 1280 DPS.
Now I put on full soldiers gear, and grab axe, and hop on my warrior. My auto attacks do 1400 and go up as vulnerability stacks up.
So let us compare.
You are complaining that trait invested engineer is doing 1280 DPS.
But your Okay with a soldier geared warrior doing 1400+DPS with his auto attacks, while having a few hundred more toughness and a few thousand more hit points.
And your posting insults left and right claiming no one is using facts or showing knowledge of professions being discussed.
I disagree with that. For every condition damage attack that you can list as being poorly telegraphed, I can list you one that is heavily telegraphed plus a direct damage skill that is poorly telegraphed.
Dire is indeed a problem. Cond force you to build to counter it if you wanna play a pow build yourself while Dire is max dmg and max tank for a condi class at the same time. Introduce Pow/Prec or Fer major, Tough/Vit minor gear (like cele but with the 3 stat gear values) and 400 stat power food (300 pow/100 fero would be nice). Gogogo.
PVT in a power build does more dps than dire in a cond build…
For classes that have on crit cond procs rabid will out damage dire.
The ignorance in this thread is astounding.
I absolutely agree with you. Posters seem to make a lot of claims about gear and the damage that comes from it, yet have no actual knowledge of it. It is as if the simply regurgitate statements from other threads they read, rather then think for them selves and actual fact check something.
Well, I thought we were having an honest discussion. Then I read your first sentence of your last post and realized you appear to have very limited knowledge and experience of the profession that was the topic of your post.
No. Although the complete skill and trait functionality changes are. The fact is, they made some total changes to many skills and traits. As well as adding totally new ones. Simply because you suggest they have done none of that, doesn’t make it true my friend.
Maybe sub part for you. With good group design and coordination, there is no difference. It doesn’t benefit anyone for you to assume that what the rest of us organize is sub par. Some of us think outside the box and do not clone meta builds or methods. Honestly, you shouldn’t peoject your individual limitations onto the rest of us.
I play both a power engi and power necro. I have no problem dealing with my condi counter part. As I see it, you should either stack condi counter utilities, stick with the safety of a group, or stop complainong. I see myself, friemds, and guildies handle condi roamers with no problem, on a very regular basis. All of this is evidence enough to me that you either are not building to counter it, or not playing to counter it. Either way, I see it as player fault.
Stun breakers may do nothing for you in a group situarion, but for myself and many others, they win fights. If you are specifically having difficulty getting out of problematic locations, perhaps you could use more awareness to avoid those locations and slot skills that aid you in escaping them. If you like, I can invite you to my PvP server and teach you some tips to aid you in your problematic areas.
As far as your reference to group play, you would have group members giving you stability in AoE buffs. I know, because when I command on server in WvW, my group mates do this for me. As I see it, your complaints about group play are counterintuitive to how professions work together, and game design. You may be better served to learn to play to your team mates strengths, instead of demanding they change the game to suit a play style that is not conducive to team work.
Sure, some of the builds some of you complain about can be played with limited skill. I guarantee you though, to actually win with those builds consistantly, absolutely requires skill.
As far as the engineer goes, I would love to see one handed cross bows. Preferably power based, so that we could run a power based build with crossbow/shield combination.
I disagree. They have made many large changes in the professions. The problem I see, is that posters tend to claim the changes are bad or pretend they do not occur simply because the changes made were not the specific ones the said poster wants themselves.
I think we would be better served by simply having some traits that are not grand masters, to benefit gadgets. To me, turrets, although limited, are in a solid place. Elixirs are solid. Kits in general are solid. Just a tad bit more for gadgets, outside the scope of grandmasters, and I feel everything would be reasonably solid with no weapon swap. Leaving only minor tweaks needed in the long run.
please read the title and stop derailing the thread…. this is not about pve or wvw this is spvp and lack of stability thank you
I am sorry, but you seem to be confussed. Nowhere in the tittle is PvP mentioned. Either way the fact remains that way to many players seem to believe this skill does not need stability. Multiple posters have explained how they thrive by adding multiple skills to counter CC with stun breakers. This thread is simply demanding the addition of stability with zero sacrifice in exchange.
To be fair though all the Medium armor wearers and kinda of Meh in zergs and good at small group roaming. Maybe thats there intended role?
Try telling that to the bomb kit engineer commanders who front line zergs on JQ server
Thief is another good example. Their stealth matters little in spvp but in wvw is annoying if not op.
Thief dont have no where near as much of an impact in WvW as Wars, Guards, Ele Necros or Mesmers. Though I guess they do hurt people ego ;/.
Actually they do. They are excellent roamers. Making them ideal for cutting of trickling zerg reinforcements and solo camp flippers or guard killers. As individuals they can have the largest impact on points for the server.
But this doesn’t mean they don’t have tons of individual problems, and it’s quite unfair to tell any Warrior-player “Oh you? you’re not getting anything changed, just spec XYZ and you’re OP”. That’s not a valid argument to be made.
Actually, if your pointing out that builds X are op, then it is very reasonable for players to be against buffing anything else until changes are made to that build
I fail to see how multiple opponent beating a single opponent or a larger group defeating a significantly smaller one is much of a counter argument. At that point the profession becomes irrelevant and number begin to matter more then anything else.
No thanks. This would require development time to give them all additional skills as well as re balancing the profession around the fact that they are weildable. This seems like a huge wast of developer time in my opinion.
I am perfectly fine with the delay. It permits players an opportunity to stop firing projectiles when they see you drop a turret. It is essentially just enough time to offer reasonable counterplay. I want this in the professions I play against, so I feel it is reasonable for us to have.
Personally, I feel a large portion of the problem is that it feels to me that Anet focuses balance around PvP in an effort to promote Esports in a manner that feels forced upon the community. As I see it, they should have offered a multifaceted PvP aspect, and allow Esports to develop organically instead of pushing it on the player base.