1on1 balance doesn’t really ever perfectly exist.
In wow for example its patently not the case that all classes are balanced with each other, and sometimes even specs make the difference.
Sometimes class X speced X is going to have an advantage of class Y Spec Y. As long as a reasonable skill gap overcomes the gap the classes are relatively balanced.
YES in a perfect world perfect balance would be great, but it has never been acheived in any MMO or even league of legends etc.
The reason 5on5 shows balance better than 1on1, is coordination and teamwork and variation in specs means it becomes less of a rock paper scissors game than 1on1.
the difference of course is one of degree not kind. 5on5 is more likely to show which team is better than 1on1 is to show which player is better.
but over a large sample size 1on1 would still show you this. Especially if you knew the meta well enough to know who has the advantage. A player winning 4 out 10 matchs with a handicap in spec and class could well be considered better than his opponent who ‘should’ be dominating not merely winning.
So, of course i agree in principle balance is important. But balancing for 3on3/5on5 etc is easier. And therefore more attainable, and in the process 1on1 gets a little bit closer to balanced also.
The irony is that requiring people to pay for the tournaments is that its preventing them from growing in popularity and generating the kind of value that a pay system would warrent.
OH, and additionally! You need to be able to play casual or informal non tournament games with teams or friends. The fact that you cant Q with your friends is just ridiculsous. I know this would imbalance the skill in regular matchs alot, but its rare that most matchs would have premades in them, and heck it might make people want to get 2gether a team.
(edited by daydream.2938)
Hey there. I have been playing GW2 now for a few weeks rejoining some guildies i used to play with. So as a recent player with alot of mmo expierence (over 2750 pvp rating in wow 3on3 arena) i though id pipe in with some suggestions because SPVP is really struggling. I rank them in what i think as most important to least important. I like GW2 so, overall this criticism isn’t meant as ‘blah blah everything sucks thread’. But honest and constructive feedback to help a great but struggling game improve.
The first and most obvious need is for a rating system thats ‘objective’ not ‘cumlative’. I understand some sort of rating system (hopefully an elo one) is being introduced soon. So thats fantastic. And some sort of arena season to go with it.
The second regards paid tournaments. In economics there is an expression known as the law of unintended consequences. When people pay for something it is supposed to have value. HOWEVER, because of the cost representing a barrier to entry , casuals are kept away from paid tournies. And because casuals are kept away you WONT GROW AN E-SPORT. Right now only a tiny TINY minority of players enter paid tournies and i am finding alot of trouble making one despite playing with players who were grand marshals back in the day in wow.
Get rid of the barriers to entry, if only for a while, when your content becomes very popular , it will then have value. Right now your keeping it from generating value by trying to put a price on it.
Thirdly. Progress. Alot of ppl feel they are not progressing if playing SPVP. I agree with the max level/equal gear philosophy of Spvp. IN fact i think its great.
HOWEVER. Alot of ppl feel since they earn more or less nothing to progress that they would rather be doing wvw or Pve. This is especially true of my friends who have limited playing time. Just because Spvp doesnt have progression doesn’t mean it cant progress your charcater out of SPVP. Perhaps a currency token for winning matchs that can be cashed in for Xp in lions arch. (I’m not sure howd youd want to go about this but, please go about it).
Fourthly. The current set up of hold the area flags is a limited type of spvp game play, maybe another format would be nice. Personally i’d like to see deathmatch or capture the flag. Wierdly enough the format you currently run of holding a point makes certain builds viable that would be far less useful in wvwvw. (ie caltrops on a thief). So we might see more playstyel variety in different formats .
NOW, the following are some suggestions that i myself am not sure about, just maybe to get a debate going because i’ve heard from people and read on forums alot of complaints:
Downed state. Its possible spvp would be better off without downed states and slightly faster respawns. This is especially true if you ever introduce a deatmatch. I understand with no healers requirement for them in wvww and pve. But this is a radical change. Still maybe radical is needed.
I might duplicate this thread on the suggestion forums.
HOpefully we get some community reaction to see what people think. Thanks for your time.
This thread also exists in spvp format, i just wanted to get specific and general feedback. Thanks.
Id be interested. I made a thread about precisely this somewhere.
Hey there. I have been playing GW2 now for a few weeks rejoining some guildies i used to play with. So as a recent player with alot of mmo expierence (over 2750 pvp rating in wow 3on3 arena) i though id pipe in with some suggestions because SPVP is really struggling. I rank them in what i think as most important to least important. I like GW2 so, overall this criticism isn’t meant as ‘blah blah everything sucks thread’. But honest and constructive feedback to help a great but struggling game improve.
The first and most obvious need is for a rating system thats ‘objective’ not ‘cumlative’. I understand some sort of rating system (hopefully an elo one) is being introduced soon. So thats fantastic. And some sort of arena season to go with it.
The second regards paid tournaments. In economics there is an expression known as the law of unintended consequences. When people pay for something it is supposed to have value. HOWEVER, because of the cost representing a barrier to entry , casuals are kept away from paid tournies. And because casuals are kept away you WONT GROW AN E-SPORT. Right now only a tiny TINY minority of players enter paid tournies and i am finding alot of trouble making one despite playing with players who were grand marshals back in the day in wow.
Get rid of the barriers to entry, if only for a while, when your content becomes very popular , it will then have value. Right now your keeping it from generating value by trying to put a price on it.
Thirdly. Progress. Alot of ppl feel they are not progressing if playing SPVP. I agree with the max level/equal gear philosophy of Spvp. IN fact i think its great.
HOWEVER. Alot of ppl feel since they earn more or less nothing to progress that they would rather be doing wvw or Pve. This is especially true of my friends who have limited playing time. Just because Spvp doesnt have progression doesn’t mean it cant progress your charcater out of SPVP. Perhaps a currency token for winning matchs that can be cashed in for Xp in lions arch. (I’m not sure howd youd want to go about this but, please go about it).
Fourthly. The current set up of hold the area flags is a limited type of spvp game play, maybe another format would be nice. Personally i’d like to see deathmatch or capture the flag. Wierdly enough the format you currently run of holding a point makes certain builds viable that would be far less useful in wvwvw. (ie caltrops on a thief). So we might see more playstyel variety in different formats .
NOW, the following are some suggestions that i myself am not sure about, just maybe to get a debate going because i’ve heard from people and read on forums alot of complaints:
Downed state. Its possible spvp would be better off without downed states and slightly faster respawns. This is especially true if you ever introduce a deatmatch. I understand with no healers requirement for them in wvww and pve. But since you wanted something that plays a bit more like a fps than an mmo in spvp, maybe this makes sense.
Secondly. Allow players to Q with there friends and teams. Even if in non tournament matchs. This would allow casual players to enter no consequence pratice time. And allow friends to play Spvp. The fact that its either tournament or nothing keeps alot of people away from praticing and leanring spvp.
I might duplicate this thread on the suggestion forums.
HOpefully we get some community reaction to see what people think. Thanks for your time.
(edited by daydream.2938)
Probably the thief is the most annoying and problematic in WvWvW.
Solo ganking is a difficult thing to pull off in this game (because you often get zerged etc). Thieves have by far the best ability to escape.
I think thieves and mesmers, because they mess with people due to head games are too classses that frustrate people alot.
IM not sure what to do about it though. Any meaningful nerf to a thieves manuervability without some other compensation would kill the class.
Generally good post seether. Against my own interest (since i play a thief) i have to confess heart seeker is a little Op.
My experience with mmos lends me to belive a very small nerf would do the trick. But some small balancing on that skill woudlnt be terrible.
But. Dont we want matchs to be determined by skill? IM agreeing we need to restricct the ability to make changes, but allowing some change means that some matchs wont be write offs from the start because of unfairable matchups.
What about between rounds? Surely some changes should be allowed to be made then?
(edited by daydream.2938)
Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.Ok problems resolved.
You have the IQ and of a snail.
Possible outcomes:
1. You do have the IQ of a snail
2. You have a lower IQ of a snail
3. You have a higher IQ of a snailMy statement is FACT, because my statement is one of the possible 3 outcomes of this scenario.
The fail there is that i didnt make the statement that started this argument. Someone else did. And someone called him a bigot. And i said i dont think making a claim about reality (ie a state of facts ) is necessarily bigoted. after all it may be true. or for that matter false.
Also. Personal attacks a good argument dont make.You didn’t make the statement, but you stated it was an objective fact that isn’t supported by…fact.
In your world what you said was “fact” in that world my statement is also “fact”. Therefore stating a fact is not a personal attack and is a valid argument.
I said its a claim about an objective fact. If i said otherwise then i must have mistyped, i wasnt exactly editing my posts. So, this then is what i meant.
So either you misread me, or my post was ambigious, ambiquity now cleared we can part ways i hope.
Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.
Quoted for absolute truth.
This is what i said in an earlier post. wish i had noticed this quote.
Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.Ok problems resolved.
You have the IQ and of a snail.
Possible outcomes:
1. You do have the IQ of a snail
2. You have a lower IQ of a snail
3. You have a higher IQ of a snailMy statement is FACT, because my statement is one of the possible 3 outcomes of this scenario.
The fail there is that i didnt make the statement that started this argument. Someone else did. And someone called him a bigot. And i said i dont think making a claim about reality (ie a state of facts ) is necessarily bigoted. after all it may be true. or for that matter false.
Also. Personal attacks a good argument dont make.
And it is a fact that i have the iq of snail OR lower OR higher.
=) anyways dude good life to you im done arguing.
(edited by daydream.2938)
Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.
If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.
THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.
Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER
any questions?
I understand this. But its a seperate point.
Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.
This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.
HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).
What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.
To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).
This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.
And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.=). hope that clarifies what i mean.
You have absolutely no idea what you are saying.
:P. Thats not an argument. Something can be a fact without being known or knowable. Its a fact that there is OR isnt life outside of earth. But we may never know . So, thats the sense in which i mean its a statement about a fact condition :P.
Having the results of a set number of outcomes being present, does not make something a fact. Easy enough?
Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.
Ok problems resolved.
@ xil. Kirei is the number 6 QP holder in europe. AT the very least that means he has seen an awful lot of paid tourneys. So , while his data set is informal and limited. it does bear some information. I wouldnt be suprised (at least within the europe pay scene) if others notice these classes showing up a bit more than random selection would allow for.
Having said that. Gaurdians may be the real most OP class in the game, but people dont complain about em because they dont ‘get owned’ by them like they do by mesmer and theif.
Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.
If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.
THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.
Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER
any questions?
I understand this. But its a seperate point.
Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.
This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.
HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).
What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.
To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).
This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.
And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.=). hope that clarifies what i mean.
You have absolutely no idea what you are saying.
:P. Thats not an argument. Something can be a fact without being known or knowable. Its a fact that there is OR isnt life outside of earth. But we may never know . So, thats the sense in which i mean its a statement about a fact condition :P.
IM not claiming i can make it fact without a means to compare. Im saying, whatever is the case is a fact. WE just dont know.
=). Anyways, this is unrelated to thread. maybe just agree to disagree.
(edited by daydream.2938)
Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.
If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.
THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.
Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER
any questions?
I understand this. But its a seperate point.
Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.
The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.
This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.
HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).
What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.
The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.
To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?
Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.
The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).
This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.
And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.
Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.
=). hope that clarifies what i mean.
(edited by daydream.2938)
We’ll be doing RANKING ladders in the future. The QP system is used for tournament entry. I’ll talk more about how these systems work together when the new system is ready to be brought on line!
When you say ranking ladders in the future, is it possible to get more information?
Like An elo rating similar to wows?
Will we be having an arena system ever in this game?
I find mesmers the most annoying class to fight by a mile. Not saying they are Op but man are they annoying to fight.
Game needs and Elo rated arena system.
Nothing makes tracking balance easier. If a class is way outperforming in the top ratings you can be virtually certain its overpowered baring some other unsual variable. LIke being overplayed because people think its cool. so more of them enter but dont actually outperform there demographic percentage.
Would still indicate a problem though.
Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.
If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.
So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.
Id like to see the game have Arena seasons. EVen 3on3 , and 5on5.
Also. What is this ranking system you mention going to be like?
is it going to be a proper elo rating system. OR something more informal, is there a place to go for information on this?
Im new to guild wars 2. And while i can often kill mesmer 1on1, i find that mesmer is the strongest 1on1 class overall. I wonder if a world class mesmer would ever lose a 1on1 match.
Hi. My first post.
This seems to be an issue thats really divided the community based on the way each side is posting. And both sides seem to be making some valid points. I think the way out is to stop thinking of this as an entirely either/or situation and recognize some room for compromise.
1 Gentlemen compared swapping out abilities to swapping out cards in a magic tourny. But of course you can do this. its called a side board. And it adds to the meta immensly.
But you cant swap cards out mid game.
Its lame to watch the Ui open up constantly in esports, and its frustrating to play like this, at least for me. And its annoying to carry so much extra stuff.
What i would recommend is a respawn ‘starting area’. Before you exit the starting area you can change things. When you true die and respawn then you can swap weapons/utilities If you find a need to adapt before exiting the starting area to rejoin the match. Im not sure about also allowing armor/amulet swap. But probably.
However, while on the match board outside the starting area no changes permitted. Even while out of combat in the map you cant swap.
This position has the advantage of being a compromise between both sides.
It functions somewhat like the sideboard in magic.
=)