Guild Wars 2

Ok, if some bug, or ability not working right, is whats causing them to be so strong, and fixing that would fix the issues with the class them im all for that.

Its still a nerf, fixing something that is working stronger than intended amounts to a nerf via bug fix. I dont want eles to become useless i want them to become balanced. Heck if you read me posting on other threads you will always see me advising that any proposed adjustements shoudl be very small so the class remains completley viable.

Arheundel.6451:

daydream.2938:

Eles come down a notch.
Warriors/engies come up a notch.

more variety of viable builds.

You’re extremely mad and hateful toward eles, lol, never seen anything like that in 7s years of MMO, you’re obsessed by eles like they own you money or something but your level of obsession is extrardinary, every day you repeat the same thing over and over without getting tired :" nerf ele QQ", but the question is what you can ever hope to achieve with your little crusade, you can never hope to beat a good ele, this profession is the epitome of skill in this game, a great ele is and will remain your worst nightmare to face as opponent, any weapon set will do.

Other weapon sets like staff and s/f have been nerfed in the past because of QQ…and still a good ele will beat you 100 times using those 2 weapon sets, an ele will always be able to counter the 3 buttons smashers out there…that’s how it is, how it supposed to be..and how always will be period

We have some very good eles in our guild, and i think the class is great. What im annoyed at is how many ppl on the forums spend the majority of there time qquing about mesmers/thiefs. without seeing that eles are the real titans right now.

Not that portal/timewarp dont need a look. I dont hate ele’s, im frustrated that so many people dont understand how strong this class is.

Eles come down a notch.
Warriors/engies come up a notch.

more variety of viable builds.

Sabre.1275:

Anyone who is saying the warrior is fine in pvp, is obviously wrong. The warrior is the absolute worst class I have played in PVP. Yes a good player can still do well with a warrior, but they can do far better with another class. Warriors are especially bad in hot join. I currently play a mesmer, which is a top 3 class. Playing my mesmer, or my warrior is like day and night. The warrior is downright frustrating to play as compared to the mesmer. From what I have seen the class balance looks something like this.

1. Thief (repeated stealths are game breaking)
2. Mesmer
3. Elementalist
4. Guardian
5. Necro
6. Ranger
7. Engineer
8. Warrior

WRONG. Thiefs are NOT #1. It’s probably the case that eles are #1. Do you see thiefs on every paid team? No. You see nearly as mainy paid teams running double ele as you do teams running one thief. Even seen triple ele in paids.

People who think thiefs are the most powerful i just dont get it. It isnt bourne out by there performance in competitive matchs. They are a strong class, but strongest? Give me a break. An ele will 1on1 a thief any day of the week, has more manuverability, durability, team effects. And sees more representation in the highest level of play. And Many top players -ie the ones who actually understand balance- reckon eles to be the strongest.

The game devs have even commented on how powerful eles are.
Repeated stealths = a thief not capping points. This is conquest, not deathmatch. thiefs are not Op.
For goodness sakes, some of the best teams dont even USE a thief. I cant think of one top team that doesnt use a ele or guardian.
Seriously, forum crying about thiefs is just sad. I dont even main a thief, i just recognize they are not the strongest.

Thiefs may well be the strongest wvwvw class. Thats more debatable. BUT NOT IN SPVP.

Schwahriet is correct thief IS NOT the best class in the game. Half the top paid teams dont even use one.
Thief burst can be really annoying, but it can be countered and isnt overpowered.

Thats it exactly, hot join doesnt feel like a match per se.
Its just randomness, and often zergy.

The learning curve is harsh, i feel sorry looking at rank 8s in tounries getting stomped over and over.

Limited variety in builds is super common for alot of classes.

100BWARRIOR anywhere?

Ele’s. I saw paradigm win like 4 paids in a row and finally fall to a group running triple ele.

Double ele/triple ele in paid tournaments shows how strong they are.
YOu wont see three thiefs in the finals.
This is conquest, not deathmatch. A thief in stealth isnt a thief taking points.

Mithir.7460:

daydream.2938:

4). Ranger, the ability to lay down several of the same traps over each other, doesnt feel like its working as intended and makes trebuchet ranger just a complete monster on map 3. PRetty much nobody can solo fight ftw at treb. Rangers aren’t op per se, so i wouldnt even care if they gave them a tiny buff when they adjusted this to compensate. But it makes bunker rangers/treb rangers a nightmare. Witness there ascension in the meta.

That is not possible. You can only have one trap of the same type active at the same time.

I was listening to some rangers on twitch talking about layering traps. Which when i heard it , i though sounded funny. havnt tested it myself. But, im confused this was a paid team so i assumed they knew what they where saying.

Add gem costing ‘save spec feature’ So you can goto your pvp locker, click a tab and change spec, gear, sigils, traits, utilities etc.

Right, this is NOT priority. but it woudl be nice.

Hey. Great thread.

I know they are making some adjustements on the 28th. But they have talked about the following.

1) . The powerfulness of ele? When is the d/d ele being looked at? If possible what they are thinking of adjusting, but more timeframe of a rebalance on this class.
2). Warrior/engy viability? 100b is probalby ok, but maybe another spec could be useful. Engy has so many bugs/uselesss abilities its crazy.
3). Timewarp/portal. Are any nerfs forthcoming? Or portal given to other classes, if so who?
4). Ranger, the ability to lay down several of the same traps over each other, doesnt feel like its working as intended and makes trebuchet ranger just a complete monster on map 3. PRetty much nobody can solo fight ftw at treb. Rangers aren’t op per se, so i wouldnt even care if they gave them a tiny buff when they adjusted this to compensate. But it makes bunker rangers/treb rangers a nightmare. Witness there ascension in the meta.
5). A viable spec that isnt burst for theif? A viable spec that isnt wells condition for necro? More variety in how the classes play basically (though power necros arent terrible only a tiny buff would make em viable).
6) any possible info on how the matchmaking system will work. will it be an elo? Will it be like halos +/-?
7). This is a big one. ARE they considering better spvp rewards, to attract more casuals. IN particular the ability to earn experience int he overworld. Not asking that SPVP itself have levels, just that u can take what u earn in there and progress ur toon outside of it, so u can wvwvw on par with ur guildies who farm dungeons and dont do spvp.
Also, i would like to give advice , please make any chages small, a huge buff/nerf to any class would make it op or useless. this game is actually not terrible for balance. But its clear ele’s are the strongest in game, and engies the weakest.
And i know they cant give days , because they want to keep promises. But to the extent that they can, TIMEFRAMES TIMEFRAMES TIMEFRAMES.

Thanks alot for this thread.

Also wow is a fairly successful esport, and wasnt intended. Far as i know the only mmo to get good esport recognition.

ladders are coming. There are tournies, and alot of competition. teams can be hard to find. The main thing is the initial learning curve is STEEP and can be difficult.

New game modes are not planned in the short run. new maps are.

Blink has a 30 second cooldown :P

Wreckdum.8367:

zone.1073:

Another wrong move and they can swap to shortbow, shadow shot up an impossible-to-reach ledge.

This is one of the most broken mechanics in the game IMO.

In order to shadowstep, shadow shot, teleport, etc. Any kind of mobility ability should have a ground path requirement to get there. That is flat out imbalanced if a class can get to terrain that other classes can’t.

any class w a teleport can do this. necro/ele etc. But it is kinda a problem.

Hotjoin glory farm?

mesmer, necro, thief.

Team Curse EU uses a warrior, and team QT Na uses one. So its not quite true that warriors aren’t viable. BUT-thiefs do generally do the role better overall. One small thing warriors have is more between burst combo damage than thiefs. But there lack of sustainbility and disengage are major issues.

It is definately something grows organically, and probably requires the pvp of the game to be something people do popularly, and has alot of semi casual players. Who might be interested in top play. true casuals dont give a care.

" Why they cant just admit they have unskilled knowledge when they lose with warrior"

OK, here is the counter point. Why are the so underrepresented in top level play? It would be kind of wierd if most of the people playing eles/gaurdians HAPPENed to be the good players, and most of the bad players happened to be warriors.

A good warrior on a good team can indeed compete. But that same player on another class would be more useful still.

Right, its what i mean by barriers to entry. its VERY hard to be a semi casual pvper in this game.

Its good for ultra casuals doing 3 pvp hot join matchs for there daily.
Its ok for ppl trying to break into competivie scene playing w teams a few hours a day.
the people in the middle, they really struggle.

there is no reason spvp shoudlnt get u overworld benefits. Improved reward spvp system would bring in more casuals, which eventually leads to more teams/players, so even hardcore spvp only ppl should want it.

Radamanth.9048:

as long as memsmers and thiefs stay unnerfed, eles should too.

how much ever u whine about it, those 2 classes are still stronger on an overall point of view.

why do i always get the feeling, when ele whining is involved, its mostly coming from thieves who cant comprehend why they just cant kill them as fas as most other classes …

Thiefs are not stronger in an overall point of view. Not even close. Ele is stronger in 1on1 by a mile than a thief or a mesmer. Also as good or better in teamfights, (except mesmer timewarp). Only thing mes/thief have is great insta gib burst, but good players focus fire and bring things down quickly.

Most top players will tell you ele is the strongest class in game, and you wont see paid teams running without . Even mesmers are somtimes forgone in paids. Yet you see teams bring 2 elementalists frequently.

@ malatcus , of course good players are hard to beat no matter the class. But if a thief and ele are fighting and player skill is equal , the ele should win maybe 18/20 times. Unlss you happen to catch him w some lucky burst crits.

People who dont ever do paids and get to see top ele players just dont understand how good this class gets in the hands of a strong player.

Ele/gaurdian are more mandatory than mesmers. Who are probably third on the all time appearence roster in paids.

They could adjust its pvp/pve ratio. but ya, i mean leaving it in for the pve crowd is fine.

Chi Malady.2015:

Schwahrheit.4203:

daydream.2938:

It can contribute but yes, youd pretty much always rather bring something else.
Thief does the burst roamer job better, and the warriors other specs arent nearly as viable as other classes in those roles. (ie bunker warrior lol).

I would love to be proved wrong though, i think its sad

Saying Axe + GS is the only viable build is the most simple-minded statement ever. Because it just shows how pathetic the amount of work put and knowledge that you have within the Warrior class.

Let me restate what I just said, “top players” are saying Axe + GS is the only viable build. You know what the problem with this build is? A lot.

1.) You can’t bait out enemy stun breaks. Something that a good Warrior needs to capitalize on is calling out stun breaks for the team and himself. Pretty pathetic that NONE of the top Warriors in NA are even “trying” to self-sustain like this.
2.) Your chain stun burst combos are predictable. Simply because you can’t bait out stun breaks reliably as you only have shield bash and bulls charge.
3.) You can’t really defend yourself nor are the rewards for being good with Axe + GS even good. Mace has duel capability due stuns and Sword has mobility and kill set ups that help you and your team. Both with better efficiency in terms of team play. Not only can you sustain yourself, you actually make your team mates carry better. These are simple things that people refuse to believe or understand because people are afraid to try something new simply because these “top QP players” who NEVER worked on the Warrior class says so.
4.) Also the fact that your DPS isn’t even better. You don’t need Eviscerate to deal DPS with GS builds.

Condition damage isn’t a problem. I don’t mind trading hits with bleeds, conditions, confusion, or burning. Its really the slows, in which case all you really need is someone who can cleanse slows if you actually worked on getting good with a Warrior. If its still an issue then of course the only thing that should happen is mobile strikes getting buffed to cleanse slows.

If chain crowd control and combining mobility with disruption knowledge is too complex, then ANET simply needs to make that easy to understand. Because Warriors don’t need to be played as a DPS if you have knowledge on team synergy, something that people refuse to learn.

Or better yet, if ANET can’t do anything then instead, of listening to simple-minded BS statements from deemed top players who never really worked on the Warrior class, work with me and we’ll find something out. Its the only way to save this class from simple-minded statements and bad balancing decisions. Because guess what? Someone has to do it, and I’m not going to stand here in wait.

Pretty confident that Warrior is more than that simple-minded Axe + GS build so long as you’re not afraid to try something new and if you’re actually determined. Something that most people who play Warriors lack due to simple-mindedness and denial.

The reason we are complaining is because we DON’T want to have to play a 100B spec. It’s a mind-numbingly boring build. We WANT build variety. The problem currently is that none of the other warrior builds provide value in a team setting (so long as conquest is the only game mode).

We’ve obviously tried every other spec there is to try. The problem is that we need to be realistic. If we’re having fun by playing the game “our way”, but not contributing optimally to the team, then we aren’t needed.

Nobodys denying you want build variety or that you should have it. What they are denying is that you have variety that is viable.

Glory for a legendary weapon is actually a good idea.

seconded.

lilz shorty.1879:

jokitten390:

lilz shorty.1879:

On another note he is making claims that are somewhat true but there are a lot of factors that go into that then just those things mentioned so it ok at best.

Also what you stated, is not true. And skill is more important than anything when it comes to facing someone 1v1. The best Mesmer in game will not lose to a bad ranger. That is just preposterous. Also rangers do not own every class ingame 1v1. A warrior easily beats a ranger and a dps guaridan can as well. Rangers would win most of time in an open field but most of the time you are fighting in small compacted areas so that is not the case. And if you are fighting a ranger in the open, most of the time your team will be around.

Warrior actually are the hardest to fight against on this ranger, but srsly in 50 paids you may see one Warrior…. And in our Team the Ranger takes the Bunker-Eles place so he goes to the far spot, ever seen a Warrior defending homespot? Of course would the best Mesm pwn a bad Ranger, but a good Ranger (not top, but knows how to play etc.) would be equal to the best Mesm and thats sad…
Guild Wars 2 depends on Skill, but its a lie to say, that if the best Mesm plays vs. the best Bunker-Ele, the Mesmer would win…

I have seen the best of classes duke it out and the mesmer has come out on top same with the guard against a ranger. Yes it is easier to beat a class with a ranger but skill/luck is more of a factor for the outcome in some situations. A warrior if played well can beat a retal guardian even tho retal guards almost completely counter them.

Of course skill and rng ( luck ) are factors. But holding skill equal, and over a decent sample size, trends emerge. Those trends inform you about balance relative to certain classes and there capacity to do X.

If , we have an elo system introduced and 90% of 100 groups at the top of the elo are running guardian/ele/mesmer it lets you know something about those classes.

You have to hold variables like skill and luck constant when comparing class balance.

There is no Elo. So its hard to tell whos the best.

However, There is Qp. And the high ranked Qp players, you can be quite assured, are all very good.

The list can be found in the stickied threads above, leader boards for qualifying points.

If you mean glory level, i think 80.

Taym.8326:

jportell.2197:

Did noone here read the transcripts from the live stream with devs in short

“Mesmer portal is giving us problems looking at giving it to other classes”

I seriously hope this is not the plan. So instead of having to deal with one portal, people can run multiple classes that have access to a portal and rotate offnode easily. This is not the answer, Less access to free off node coverage is the answer not giving it to all classes this is a bad design decision. Things like keeping track of enemy numbers and locations should be rewarded and not “someone is contesting X” * 1 of 3 classes portals back * . I still think mobility needs to be cut back in order to allow for harsh penalties for misjudging the enemy numbers, or adding a bonus to misleading your enemy.

these are good points. at least you have an argument. But the situation right now is untenable. either more classes need portal so that it allows more comp variety ( though u can run non portal groups in paid, it is possible). Or , portal needs a nerf.

The status quo is the issue, the solution can go either way ,i’m not sure whats best personally.

The casual experience is lacking, in large part because of no match mkaing and barriers to entry in competitive play.

Your either a super casual hot join player, or competitive, its hard to be semi casual which is what grows the community with enough interest in the pvp enviroment to be interested in a competitive e sports generating environment.

mesmers are hardly uncommon in tournies, but you wont see as many because of diminishing returns of class stacking (minus eles).

so, a team will rarley have more than 1 mesmer on it. However, that isnt to say you wont see mesmers on alot of teams. If you really want to play a rare class. THe lowest three are probably engy/warrior/ranger. though rangers are kinda catching on of late.

Are doing hotjoins perhaps? mesmers and thieves are really common in hotjoins, but less so in tournaments.
Also, remember you dont have to level up anything for SPVP. So if you want to try another class, you can roll it and jump in right away.

Outside the standard shatter mesmer, i think phantasm isnt bad. Though, the higher the level of competition you go against the more tight the variety of viable builds becomes. Phatasam will hold up ok even in most free tournies though. I dont know the details of the spec im afraid

jokitten390:

lilz shorty.1879:

On another note he is making claims that are somewhat true but there are a lot of factors that go into that then just those things mentioned so it ok at best.

Also what you stated, is not true. And skill is more important than anything when it comes to facing someone 1v1. The best Mesmer in game will not lose to a bad ranger. That is just preposterous. Also rangers do not own every class ingame 1v1. A warrior easily beats a ranger and a dps guaridan can as well. Rangers would win most of time in an open field but most of the time you are fighting in small compacted areas so that is not the case. And if you are fighting a ranger in the open, most of the time your team will be around.

Warrior actually are the hardest to fight against on this ranger, but srsly in 50 paids you may see one Warrior…. And in our Team the Ranger takes the Bunker-Eles place so he goes to the far spot, ever seen a Warrior defending homespot? Of course would the best Mesm pwn a bad Ranger, but a good Ranger (not top, but knows how to play etc.) would be equal to the best Mesm and thats sad…
Guild Wars 2 depends on Skill, but its a lie to say, that if the best Mesm plays vs. the best Bunker-Ele, the Mesmer would win…

Right i hate people who respond to ‘x’ could regularly beat ‘y’ with , not if Y was a good player.
Well, yes, if X was a good player also. Skill makes more of a difference than class balance , for sure.
But when people are of equal skill class/spec match ups matter. Thats one of the reasons highest level of play reveals balance best.
1) because skill is less of a variable as they are all really good.
2) Because they are all really good its not likely that its simply a l2p issue.

so if u see consistant over performance at the top level of play, you know youve got something that is actually overpowered. cough , ele , cough.

It can contribute but yes, youd pretty much always rather bring something else.
Thief does the burst roamer job better, and the warriors other specs arent nearly as viable as other classes in those roles. (ie bunker warrior lol).

I would love to be proved wrong though, i think its sad

Theyve promised a big patch for pvp somtime in feburary.

Also next week we get the 1teamvs 1team paid tounries on a new map.
Dont hold your breath, but dont panic either, changes are on the way.

lilz shorty.1879:

daydream.2938:

Quite a few? Only high Qp warrior main i know of is hman, are there others?

Yep his name is lil nnight

Its still an underepresented class. But, if your good enough, and your team is built for it, you can bring a warrior to competitive play.

most classes can spec in a way that is good in 1on1. It just so happens eles spec in a way that is good in 1on1, good in team fights, and good in the meta and tourny play, all in one. that is unique to them.

Anything piloted by a good player is deadly, but not all things are equally deadly

I think ele will be fine post nerf. And ya they likely will have some decent healing. Just right now they can do everything well, and other than a trap ranger can beat anything 1on1 most of the time, while maintaing good survavibility and mobility and team fight power.

S H A K U R AS.9536:

JS 1 thing, I think better in 1vs1 will be random map, not only temple, because its will be boring after a short time. But 1 vs1 on 4 maps (forest, temple, khylo, legacy) should be more funny and interesting, because we can fight vs the same opponent on different maps. Is it possible to create with matchmaking?

I think this thing they are introducing is one week trial so it will likely be just the one map. however, your points well taken. Anything that was introduced more long term, id like map variety.

Quite a few? Only high Qp warrior main i know of is hman, are there others?

I think dueling would be great. How about a duel arena in HOTM just past where you have all those fake Npc hero toons.

If you want to know a spec that works in paids and has success. check out twitch tv. teldoo, heplays paids as engy well.
Far as i know hes the only engy who does so.

GanJoe.5374:

stronger ? they arent stronger… they are way more versatile and excell at many other disciplines at the same time… which is a big problem currently, true.
But ppl tend to notice killing potential/ttk [ not to forget the huge potential survivabilty a gc or even worse condi thief has ] a lot more than mobility, boon removal, healing or whatever else.
And imho, its a bigger problem instagibbing ppl on a minute basis.

Like i said… dont always argue from the point of view of an even stronger or equal class to yours which is often considered OP/fotm…
coz there are only a few… if at all…
tho there are a LOT of subpar classes/speccs…

so buff them, everybody knows warriors and engies need some love. Though ill be really scared of teldoo after engy buff :/

Visionary.5681:

The reason the 100nade build kills so many is that people arent used to it yet.

Once you get net shotted, break it and dodge. The Engi is now a glass cannon with no burst cannon until cooldowns come back

Once people have seen it a few times, it will be as counterable as 100b

Good teams actually are very hard to dodge as other players besides the engy will CC you. Also watch teldoo use his magnet pull to line people up. Yikes its effective.

GanJoe.5374:

“if you nerf Thief burst, and hold all otther things equal, they would become a 2nd rate class”
oh noes… we surely dont want you to feel like warriors currently do…

Surely if they nerf their dmg… they should up something else… no one wants the thief class to go away… just be in line with others.

And when you argue… try not to always argue from the view of the next strongest class… keep in mind there are plenty classes/speccs who already feel like 2nd rate classes…

In line with other classes? how about elementalist, who are way stronger than thieves. How about bringing the strongest class in the game into line.

Visionary.5681:

daydream.2938:

Point is , if thiefs where So OP you’d see EVERY top team running them.

Thats not actually true. Your use of caps does not make false statements any more true.

The complaint about thieves stems from their overpowered class mechanics and button-mash compliant burst.

The reason you dont see every top team running them is because, synergy is more important to high end play and thief isnt so much of a team fighter. Thief is more of a duelest class, which is why its also a popular pubstomper class.

Also alot of high end teams do you thieves.

daydream.2938:

it FACTUALLY is a l2p issue, it really is.

Caps still not making opinions factual.

daydream.2938:

People who argue thiefs are OP are literally demonstrating a lack of understanding of the game. My GOD play a elementalist and master it, and youll pretty much NEVER lose a 1on1 to a thief again.

Your answer to balanced pvp is, if you dont play a Thieves, you have to play a single spec of Elementalist?

Surely a more logical way of thinking about this is, thieves need balancing properly and so does the single spec of elementalist (which we know is under review at the minute anyway).

daydream.2938:

THIEVES ARE NOT OVERPOWERED.

More caps lock as overcompensation for a poor arguement. I wonder why people wont take your post seriously?

Just as an end note. I personally feel that the issue with thieves isnt that they arent counterable. I think the issue is that certain classes and certain specs arent capable of countering them sufficiently.

Classes with lots of ground targeting aoe, aoe knockback, teleports, or easy access to retaliation seem to do fine against thieves, when in a non glass cannon spec.

Now there are classes who dont have long duration/easy acccess to retaliation. There are classes who dont have any mechanic for knockbacks, reguardless of spec/utilities chosen. There are classes who dont have ranged, ground targeted aoe, which is spammable, high dps, or short cooldown.

If thieves are to be kept the way they are now, there would need to be a redesign of atleast a few classes to properly counter them.

Surely its easier to fix the problem, rather than try to patch the symptoms?

Can you appreciate my point, that if you nerf Thief burst, and hold all otther things equal, they would become a 2nd rate class. Burst is Y some groups bring thiefs, get rid of that and they will essentially be useless in competitive play.

Weapon X.5163:

Ele is not the strongest class in the game. It just so happens that the only game mode in this game is good for bunker builds+mobility.

Thet dont need to nerf or buff anything, they need to add more god kitten game modes. Let these kitten bunkers play domination and lets get some TDM going and lets see how many people use a lolEle…..

And yes, Ele is my main and the only lvl 80 i have.

Stop passing the blame onto class balance and pass it back to ANET to deliver a good PVP experience for all of us.

All balance has to be considered against conquest, as that sthe only format of the game. maybe if there was death match or CTf it would be different, but given that its conquest, eles are the strongest class.

Class balance, is part of delivring a good pvp experience.

listening to teldoos steam on twitch tv from team paradigm.

teldoo: ‘bunker eles are the strongest class in game’
caed: ‘if ur nerf burst on thief they woudl be a 2nd rate class, if u nerf eles they will still be very viable’.

Eles are OP because a good ele basically will never lose a 1on1, and if ur the strongest 1on1 class int he game w that kinda mobility you put ur team up. If you go fight at a point you will always force either 2 people to it, or force the defender off. unless its a bunker guardian in which case you tie.

Ele’s are so powerful its crazy.

xeph: ele is the top class in the game.

These are all high Qp players. not to mention paid teams running double or triple ele groups.

People who dont think eles arent too strong atm arent playing at the high level.