The nerfs indicate the class WAS op, not that it is OP.
its performance at high end play reveals its relative distribution in the power curve. Its not overused, like ele or mesmer or guardian are. And yes, the meta matters in influencing whats to strong/not.
Does thief burst need a look? maybe , but not without compensation. Or this class will become underpowerd amongst good players and useless.
Saying ‘from a casual’ point of view, is like saying from ‘a l2p point of view’.
Not saying casuals dont matter, im saying they dont understand balance.
I dont even main a thief! just play one now and then for fun.
Ele’s are seriously , in all probability the strongest class in the game, its not about how much variety of specs they have that are viable, the mesmer doesn’t have very many viable specs, but , like the ele, its very powerful.
I see all paid teams running ele, its doubled up on more than any other class, its good in team fights, and 1on1, and mobility, and healing allies, and bunkering, decent dps. Aoe stacking is common in the meta now, eles good at this also.
You could make a serious case for this being the strongest class in the game, its certainly a contender. YOu can just see this from paids.
Still with this “Top teams don’t run it” bullkitten, if stealth wouldn’t de-cap a point , all we would see is bunker stealth thieves, with a game mode based on capturing point all you can hope to find is people trying to hold that point.
That argument is rather funny. It’s kind of saying : “If Stealth was changed in a way that made it OP, then it’d be OP and everyone would use it!”
exactly.
its not OP because its NOT OP.
Dude i know eles who can burst like mad and survive and move like mad.
EAdine, though hes not well known. or zoose.
Not talking about ur debate specifically but eles can do serious dmg.
in that case we argree rayn, they need to make it as easy as possible for competitive pvp to grow.
1on1 as a duel system is great.
1on1 as a ladder system is idiotic. Even wow doesnt do that.
And remember this change to the map next week is only for one week, its a trial guys, nothing carved in stone.
I dont know how people stand hot join for long. But i will concede, thiefs would probably be very annoying in hot join.
Thats still not a balance issue per se though.
Matchmaking is based on ranks and QP, to avoid your scenario with the hardcore-player-stomp.
We can’t do more then wait and see how it will be going.
Where did you read that? i havnt heard anything official on how it will be organized.
The only players that cannot handle a thief with 916 toughness are players that have not yet learned to utilize their skills and abilities who may also lack situational awareness. I’m going to pull a page from Sataar’s book and tell you to learn to play.
hmm….so the fact that i have 2500+ 3v3 arena xp at wow in cyclone bg eu,
if you know what i’m talking about,and i’m getting globaled by thieves in gw means that i have L2P issues…
Dude half the top teams in GW2 dont even run a thief. They are the fourth or fifth strongest class right now.
Ele,guard,mesmer
Then necro/theif/ranger ( you can argue the order of these classes , ranger getting alot of love right now. )
Then warrior/engy. bringing up the rear, hardly any teams run these in paids. Though i see teldoo do well in paids on his engy. I think hes a great player and would be doing even better on something else.
And engies can put out similar burst to thieves with 100 nades-thought its alot easier to see coming. Point is , if thiefs where So OP you’d see EVERY top team running them. Which you do with ele, guard and mesmer.
it FACTUALLY is a l2p issue, it really is. People can argue thiefs aren’t fun to fight against, or they are annoying, thats somewhat subjective but i can see where they are coming from.
People who argue thiefs are OP are literally demonstrating a lack of understanding of the game. My GOD play a elementalist and master it, and youll pretty much NEVER lose a 1on1 to a thief again. And have the most amazing ways to counter and recover from them.
Does that mean burst doesnt need a review? Maybe burst could use a second look, but if u take burst away from the thief with no compensation, youve basically killed the class because it isnt overrepresented in play at all right now, and will disspear if the one thing it offers isnt available anymore.
THIEVES ARE NOT OVERPOWERED.
(edited by daydream.2938)
Right, that makes sense, even a one minute time delay would render all information useless.
The mesmer is not over powered, portal and to a certain extent timewarp are.
they do have some sort of matchmaking system planned. ill be curious to see how it works, i have feeling it wont be a proper elo rating, but will be based of player ranks. Which, is sad for players who are casual but have obtained high ranks over a long time, they will simply be stomped continensiously by high ranked hardcore players.
And wha thappens if ur bringing a friend whos new tot he game into your team? how does that effect matchmaking? its going to be interesting to see.
Matchmaking is good when it works, but terrible if it gets you trapped into fighting competition you cant beat ever.
Isnt there concern about observers being on vent with one of the teams and feeding them info. This isnt much relevant in pure deathmatch, but sure is in conquest.
Well lets put it like this, many paid teams run double ele because of how strong they are.
A good ele is nearly impossible to beat in 1on1, does good aoe damage , has great cc and manuverability for getting around the map. IS good in team fights also.
overall , a top tier class and might be the strongest class in game.
By convincing them you can win, best way to do this is to try it in consquence free enviroment ala frees, and if u do well myb they will do it in paids.
Thiefs are ok at the top level, dont worry about being asked to sub backstab for pw.
Seems theres two good ways to play thief, and one not bad way.
d/d and d/p good way, with some sort of caltrops stealth builld being the not bad way.
As for warriors? they are more limited than thief, but fill similar function. no people will sub out warrior for thief not other way around.
YOur typical comp is g/n/e/m/x where x is usually a roam dps like a thief or warrior.
Nowadays double ele is showing up alot, and ive seen double mesmer/guardian groups.
Lol i saw a e/e/g/g/m group the other day on a EU stream.
But double ele, that seems to be the new way to go because that class is just so powerful.
Though from the Qq on forums youd think thiefs where the strongest.
Hello, I was wondering if this thread also helps those of us that can’t seem to find parties in free tourneys and paids. I know I’m not a great mesmer, lvl24 in spvp have only done a total of ~200 tourneys, but I am dieing to get into a paid tourney though I can’t switch servers or join a different guild.I’ve done plenty of free tourney’s though most of the time ending up in a loss since it’s with pugs. If anyone could help get me in a few paids I’d really appreciate it. I am usually online from about 8am-3pm pst. please send me a mail or pm if you don’t mind helping.
You need to find a consistant team to play with.
the WORST teams you run into in paids are typically better than the best teams you will see in most frees.
If you arent winning 90% of your free tournies with your team, youll probably get farmed in paids. The skill gaps is enourmous.
however, sometimes in paids the first round isnt so bad if u run into another put togteher team.
Umm any kind of a bunker? THE one time i ran into Pz they where running double ele.
The term is barrier to entry snatch. And its the most destructive problem in the current pvp enviroment.
If you want your pvp to get popular you need to make it as easy as possible for people to participate, not difficult.
Consider dota2 vs LOL. Dota 2 charged for the game at first before going free to play, and LOl was to popular at that point and had market control.
This game builds itself as NO sub fee, and ok i understand they need a way to make money, find another avenue, because making people drop cash/farm for HOURS to play a single paid , is just too much.
First thing one advises all people who mention this, transfer to anvil rock dude, much easier to find teams there.
Look dude, solo quing for a paid, probably wont happen because its rare for someone to Q up for paids solo, so its unlikely ull get a random group, as it will be all 5 man groups going.
Also, its suicide, solo quing into a paid youll get farmed so hard your head will spin.
If you want to find teams goto anvil rock. But since people rarely Q for paids without a 5 man team, its rare youll get a pop solo quing.
Anvil rock buddy, and on the double, free xfers end sometime next week.
@ dardamaniac
it IS a learn to play issue, amongst the good players thiefs are not considered over powered, they dont get over represented in paid tournaments.
If you learn to play an Ele, and you get good at it, you will never lose a 1on1 to a thief again.
Ya, thats unfortunate swiftpaw, but those of us who solo Q alot, i’m almost done with solo Quing, because im so frustrated dealing with afkers/quitters.
However they cannot change portal if they are not able to fix general mobility problems with elementalist. When they remove portal from the game its not possible to counter bunker elementalist anymore…their mobility is just much higher than from any other class, which forces minimum 1 person to defend the close point while the elementalist is possible to roam and support over the entire map.
Nothing about this is true or rational.
Thief can melt bunker ele while rolling super high mobility builds. So can Mesmer. Necro and Guardian can also easily push Ele of point or kill them outright depending on the build you use. Bunker ele are hard to kill if you let them read you and counter everything you do. But if you are patient and don’t faceroll the keyboard and rambo at them, you can beat them at their own game with most any other class.
You really should stay away from the forums. Most of the information you find here is false or misleading.
A good ele, will pretty much NEVER lose a 1on1 to a thief.
Viability isnt a matter of perspective, its a matter of effectiveness. Being able to win games with said spec. The higher in competitive play you go, the tigther the ways to spec become. IM not saying the current meta is the only way to play the game, im saying the meta is the best way , as it s currently understood, to play the game.
People who want to argue theres a ton of viable specs out there for all classes, well id like to see, where it counts, in paid tournaments.
^Because players determine meta game not developers. The number of combinations with every class for builds are really limitless people are just so narrow minded
The number of viable specs isnt nearly limitless.
Teams also pretty much have to have a guardian and elementalist.
heck you see teams running double ele’s frequently these days.
Right mr.big, im not saying burst couldnt use a second look, i’m just saying it needs a comprehensive look, because some classes, most notably thief, bring pretty much nothing to the table BUT burst, so if you nerf that, the more rounded classes like Ele become even more dominant ( and they are considered stronger than thiefs right now, even despite the burst thiefs have).
So, holding everything equal, any nerfs to thiefs will make them useless in high end play. I dont oppose burst being looked at, i oppose a specific isolated nerf to thief burst, that would essentially cripple the class and take them out of the end game.Burst should be useless in high end play. Burst mechanics are for r1 – 10 so those players feel like they contribute even though they know nothing about the mechanics. At top competitive levels burst should come as the result of focus targeting and synergy. A thief running burst and no team utilities is a detriment to a top level synergy dependent team.
So nerfing the easy mode burst would only serve to help Thief become more competitive by forcing them into a synergy roll instead of being Rambo the Roaming Bowtard.
The question is can they thrive in that role at top level play.
Probably not, other classes, in particular eles, do these other roles better. The reason thief burst is dominant in how thiefs play in succesfully in paids, is they can do this better than other classes.
IF u wanted a hybrid dps/roamer, youd just get eles, or mesmers bc of portal.
Thiefs are pigeonholded into dps burst, bc its the only thing they can do well enough to warrant bringing a thief, in any other capacity you should replace them with another class.
Longbow – a complete joke of a weapon; low damage and slow auto attack, random skills that are extremely situational to the point of uselessness; useless burst.
as a longbow warrior i consistently get 200-300 points in Spvp, the burst has a huge area, hits everything repeatedly, applies burning and also acts as a fire field to throw more burns around.
but i do agree that GS is just a league ahead of everything else.
GS is for r1-10. If you are still using it beyond that you better be using it for fun cause it is not helping you suck less.
Like Qt-hman? whos probably nearly rank50, and has more Qps than any other warrior, and still runs gs. I guess he sucks?
Ya usually people are interested in ranks 25+.
Though you can grind this out quick in free tournies by solo quing for them, also youll get the 50% extra glory tokens doing this.
One definate issue is the 40 person requirement, Im hoping the new 1team vs 1 team format will address this.
Right mr.big, im not saying burst couldnt use a second look, i’m just saying it needs a comprehensive look, because some classes, most notably thief, bring pretty much nothing to the table BUT burst, so if you nerf that, the more rounded classes like Ele become even more dominant ( and they are considered stronger than thiefs right now, even despite the burst thiefs have).
So, holding everything equal, any nerfs to thiefs will make them useless in high end play. I dont oppose burst being looked at, i oppose a specific isolated nerf to thief burst, that would essentially cripple the class and take them out of the end game.
The thief skill i think hes referring to is sword/dagger skill 2?
That teleports you to your opponent so might not dodge the burst, and generally, thiefs dont run sword/dagger, its considered not particularly useful weapon combo.
So unless another thief skill allows for this, im not sure its an issue, a thief is already at a disadvantage for running that weapon set up.
If you nerf burst, my point is it hurts the burst classes the most. And Curse is in EU. The NA meta is different, but your point is taken.
Im not saying thiefs dont need any adjustments, im saying if you dont make broader adjustments across the board, all you’ll do is phase this class out.
till people keep on saying that venom share thieves are viable and such, it’s rather difficult to understand how balancing should be addressed.
A nerf to burst, without HUGE compensations of any sort to the thief ( and to warriors, to a certain extent) class, will simply break out the thief from meta, and every team will start running with 100 nades enges ( at least i hope so, even if it’s higly unprobable) , shatter mesmers with OH focus and D/D eles.
Wars and thieves will be comlpetely thrown out from the meta, because currently, the only decent thing they can do is burst ( and the thief is better than wars in doing so, but some comps can still run a war).
^ This.
Its not that thief is OP. mesmer, ele, and gaurdian are all stronger classes. Necro is about on par with theif, maybe a lil stronger in the meta also.
Its that thiefs do burst, and this frustrates newer players, which is why despite how much more ACTUALLY powerful eles are, thiefs get complained about more. Though you’ll see few players who are highly ranked complain about them because they know, thiefs aren’t OP at all.
Top teams in Lol , have voice comm. And because of the short reaction time of control, you absolutely need a a talk program. Idk what to tell you. Maybe, you will find a team that will let you be on voice as a listen only…still a handicap.
the future matchmaking system changes might make finding a more casual friendly team easier.
Aren’t they introducing a matchmaking system?
That will help new players like nothing else they have done.
From what ive observed, the only spec thats high end play viable is 100blades, and it holds up ok. But warrior has no particular role diversity, and its questionable if he even fills this roll the best (thief ).
Rangers, used to be considered trouble, but recently rangers are seeing a decent amount of paid play and love.
especially on map 3 khylo.
no matter how you slice and dice it, warriors need some love, but at least they are not engies.
Hi. Am starting to put together a team, need 1 or 2 more people so we can get a more consistant 5 online.
Am mainly looking for Burst dps roamers ala Thief. Or condition damage dealers ala RAnger or necro.
We typically play between 9pm est to 2am est.
Must be rank 25+
Willing to listen, have vent, be patient with a new team starting to get coordinated etc. And be serious about improving in pvp.
Mature attitude a must.
(edited by daydream.2938)
stop playing hotjoins.
and who cares, glory means nothing.
What a shortsighted post, everyone who plays tournaments should care that the initial entry point / casual part of sPvP for “fun” is the worst of its type in any MMORPG (that I’ve played), that simply turns players off and in turn reduces the numbers of people that go on to play tournies.
In case you haven’t noticed the structured PvP part of the game has flopped pretty badly and part of that is due to how dismal hot join is.
Controlling player behavior is unusual. IN hotjoins with 8on8, its much more likely to denigrate into just a brawl, which is fine, i didnt mind brawling when i first started to pvp. However, if they want to provide a glory buff to winning games, that would be ok…after all glory doesn’t do anything really at this point. Just effects ur rank and appearance gear. Which motiviates some people i guess.lol ive never changed my appearence gear for anything.
Wow has the player base to support this.
Sadly gw2 doesn’t, we cant split up the community of pvpers with too many game modes.
If you nerf burst, my point is it hurts the burst classes the most. And Curse is in EU. The NA meta is different, but your point is taken.
Im not saying thiefs dont need any adjustments, im saying if you dont make broader adjustments across the board, all you’ll do is phase this class out.
hotjoins arent competitive, and are a different enviroment, people are praticing specs, looking for a fight, not trying to win the objectives.
in tournies they focus on objectivees.
No, if a top team cant use it against other top teams and win their fair share, its not viable. Not all specs are equal dude, in any game.
And when you claim a spec is viable, yet no top players are using it.
That says its probably not that good.
Im starting to get frustrated w this, alot of times when ppl are pugging they see a premade on the other side and they afk or quit. Screws over the other 4 guys if u dont at least try.
Presumably, a match making system, which they have announced, will help to reduce instances of this.
The solution is to nerf the damage modifiers that you can pick up through traits, nothing else. It’s obvious to anybody who has actually put some thought into it and actually played it.
Why do scholar runes add such a huge amount of damage? Why can you pick up 4 traits with damage multipliers of 10, 10 , 20 and 5% respectively that are additive? That’s the root of the issue.
Obviously this needs to happen at the same time as bunkers are nerfed.
what you say is very true
but
1)fix to this will hurt every build not the problematic bs .
2) anet will not likely do this massive revamp in the near future.
3) true and true again to nerf bunkers but this need to happen in the same time as burst nerf.Mrbig i don’t see it the way you are,thieves can go venom share and they have good group utilities they can share boons & so on & so on
but i do agree thats not as viable as just going burst romer in the current state of the meta.anet sure needs to give some buff to group support to the profession maybe then we wont see so many cheesy builds.
this role realy need to viable for a thief.Nope, thieves can’t go venom share.
Condition thieves are useless in a team environment, venom share are the "less"useless among them but they don’t give consistent advantage to your team, neither they give your team decent sustain, and drop like flies to burst.
They can spread a very little amount of conditions, easily AoE removed by a single ele dodging in water attunment.
Currently burst is the only way to play as a thief, and that’s why we only play burst: because we have no other choice.
without burst, the thief is the worst class in the game, yet people is too dedicated to QQs instead of thinking about a way to balance this game.
You’re making the same argument as most eles who swear by the 0/10/0/30/30 build while there are eles out there who run a burst build or full glass cannon build, an ele with no EA and water remove condition is far from being useless ..on the contrary.
Thieves got traps-deception and of course venoms, a support thief is completely viable in my opinion..
Name one top team using one?
Viability is a claim that needs to be proved by winning matchs against the top competition, its not something one just asserts.
IN almost every game, and for that matter sports, it is hard to quantify defense.
If thiefs are so overpowered, how come the top players in paids tend to stack eles,mesmers and guardians, and thiefs are less common?
Thiefs are middle of the pack in terms of balance, certainly not weak, but hardly to write home about.
Ummm… Warriors are the Only classes that I have seen able to solo dungeons… I think you guys need some buffs somewhere but I’d say if any class can solo dungeons they are doing alright.
pve doesnt equal PVp.
Idk how warriors are doing in pve land, but they ARE CLEARLY underpowered in pvp tourny play.