Adding targetable objects to the battlefield = bad PvP design. Doesn’t matter what the class is. Mesmer clones, necro pets, engi supply drop and turret. GTFO. You turn PvP into a clusterkitten and wonder why no one likes your PvP.
Stop giving classes advantages that have nothing to do with PvP. Pet classes are such an idiotic idea for PvP. Yay I get to tab target 12 times or click on this guy in between 12 other moving targets… Meanwhile he gets to pres… TAB.
You need to get more player vs player into your pvp and less players vs random kitten running around the battlefield controlled by AI. This game is currently wasted potential. Nothing more. The engine is awesome… What it’s being utilized for is such a waste.
Long story short to whoever designed these classes.
Yer dumb.
I like the pvp. Also i dont have trouble finding the real messy. Vigor is a super giveaway.
=)
Also, this thread has become anger, and attacks rather than analysis. Maybe we should make a thread on how to help beat mesmers, its honestly not hard once u learn what to do.
Rangers and eles are both way superior 1on1 fighters as well to mesmers. particularly rangers will own em, so ikittennow for sure mesmer at backpoint, send a ranger to make trouble for em, it forces them to send support or lose the point.
Umm . Dude, i kill good mesmers all the time. And if your a ranger a mesmer is joke to kill or least force to run.
Ele should also win 1on1 vs mesmer nearly all the time.
Yes. First off , you can obviously run a portal and mesmer yourself to protect your own back point.
Second. A good elementalist can easily solo a mesmer most of the time. so have your ele push far point, if memser portals back alone the ele can take him and at least neut the point.
If however, they port back with several ppl, the ele can speed run out while the rest of you push mid now that they are down bodies there.
I think the best point against this argument is the fact that in almost every big esport ever (all of them, to my knowledge), the West (Europe included) has always, always fallen short to the likes of China and Korea. However, those games were still immensely popular in the West. So, I think we can count this reason out.
That’s not to say the system doesn’t need improvements, though.
Um league of legends, koreas top two teams just fell to a euro team in a recent major IEM tourny.
The #2 rated guild world wide in LOL is euro guild.
But, generally asia takes its competitve video gaming way more seriously. In korea they broadcast top videogamers on tv.
The top players sit at the top, and give nothing back. I don’t blame them for that, why is it there responsibility to teach less skilled players?
But given the current state of the game, it might behoove them to take it upon themselves to educate the community, invite people to group with them and teach others how to be better at the game (besides cheese, swapping characters mid match is stupid and shows a lack of character). I only ever see top players with other top players, furthering the divide.
Back to what I quoted.
There are three basic learning styles, Auditory, Visual, and Kinesthetic (tactile). I guarantee that out of those getting stomped by the top teams, only a very small percentage is actually learning from the experience, because it fits in with their learning style.
Do I expect the top players to do this? Of course not. But I think it would help alleviate some frustrations.
Some of them do. Gasmask takes players with him, and zoose recently made a good d/d spellbook video (youtube it).
Such a high percentage of people who complain are hot join players.
Honestly, hot joins are a bad experience. Taking frees to 1 team vs 1 team, would make such a difference.
Here is why. In league, or in dota 2 people PLAY THE GAME.
IN tournies people play the game, in hotjoins people just run around ganking. Joining for 5 mins into the middle of a match, and leaving before its done. With 16 ppl in there making it way zergy.
Somehow people have got to get engaged in a match. I know if i was a newb and ran into 6 mesmers everyday just zerg fighting id get frustrated too. Even if high level players know how to deal with it. ( and the do but still bad experience for new players)>
hot join is the only option though for many. would you rather hotjoin or lose 5v4 or to a premade in free?
1vs 1 free tournies with match making. Sure youd get quitters, but that happens in LOl as well. As long as for the most part your on relatively even ground and winning your fair share, then its ok.
If what you describe was a permanent state of affairs i might agree. But the anet spotlight seems to FINALLY be on spvp. Theres clearly work going into it now. so hopefuly things get better soon.
the bad system of hot join clearly show that there is a problem with mesmer and thiefs regardless what tpvp ppl think or do.. lowering the learning curve does not hamstringing high levels.
so even if u would implement all ur suggestions the problem still exist.. high reward low risk…
the whole problem is stealht and npcs.
i dont want to know how much high levels mesmers and thiefs are actualy “newbs” and only play on tourney carried by team and unbalanced class/build. a mesmer or thief need to bring the same amount of skill to kill something. they need to sacrifice the defense if the go berzerk.. what mesmers and thiefs because classmechanic dont do.
i already has suggest to implement a castbar.. but that would “harmstringing high levels” lol
Not really. You see so many thiefs/mesmers mainly because 8v8 is a zerg-fest between 2 unbalanced teams. Once it becomes a match-made 5v5 team of 2 equally skilled teams them I can pretty much guarantee the # of thieves/mesmers you will see will drop drastically.
The whole “easy to play at low levels” thing is so overblown and is a complete non-issue. Same thing in Street Fighter, noobs will pick up E. Honda or Chun-Li and buttonmash their way to victory, but is no big deal once people pick up the basics of the game. The bad design of hot join is 99.9% of the issue with a bad casual player pvp experience.
Yes, i feel the hotjoin is fundamentally at issue with casual experience. They arent even playing the gmae per se, as in conquest tourny.
Such a high percentage of people who complain are hot join players.
Honestly, hot joins are a bad experience. Taking frees to 1 team vs 1 team, would make such a difference.
Here is why. In league, or in dota 2 people PLAY THE GAME.
IN tournies people play the game, in hotjoins people just run around ganking. Joining for 5 mins into the middle of a match, and leaving before its done. With 16 ppl in there making it way zergy.
Somehow people have got to get engaged in a match. I know if i was a newb and ran into 6 mesmers everyday just zerg fighting id get frustrated too. Even if high level players know how to deal with it. ( and the do but still bad experience for new players)>
thiefs and mesmer’s arent ‘noobs’ in high level play. Neither are they op.
Most top players know the classes so well, they spot the real mesmer in seconds, dodge a high percentage of backstabs. And thiefs/messys probalby win less than half there 1on1 fights in high end, depending on class match ups.
Idk i dodge backstabs all the time. So, i mean i dont want to comment on human reaction times. but, i manage to get out of the way frequently and i do paids.
though of course i dont my fair share of them either, depends if i see the theif coming or not. One thing that helps alot is if your team always calls out eyes on the thief so everyone knows where he is .
Classes being balanced in 1on1 isnt really the ideal. After all, a point roamer might not be a very good 1on1 fighter, but very useful in teamfights. Because classes specialize into different roles.
A 5 man team made up of strong 1on1 specs might lose to a 5 man team with more specialized roles, even if any particular match up the first team would win1v1.
It would be like asking league of legends to have every hero balanced 1on1. Its just silly , not all classes do the same things equally well, and only way to really get balance is to mirror.
so that instead of having to get new gear in, and redo ur traits, utilities. You could click a locker on your tab where you save all this data. it would switch ur gear, traits, utilities.
So you could completley respec with just a click or 2.
sell tab spaces on lockers. I know people would pay gems for that.
^
While I see builds other than GS actually working, I will never deny that there is no point in picking any other roamer other than Ele. In fact, I’m even willing to say that Thief and Warrior isn’t viable in competitive play unless you have an Ele. Why the hell do we all have to have an Ele just to do work? The meta right now is pathetic.
Even people are being a bunch of dumb preachers and saying “go play an Ele.”
Three simple things that should happen at Feb patch:
1.) Nerf everything face-roll into Warrior efficiency.
-Includes getting rid of Time Warp, making Blurred Frenzy a 30 second cool down without the trait, and Ele getting reverted to the old Ele where people refused to L2P and only L2P’d after they got over-buffed. This also means revert Ele down-state.
-Realistically speaking, this isn’t going to happen. So lets move on to the next reasonable thing to happen in the next patch.
2.) Find Equilibrium on Ranger or Guardian efficiency.
-Remove Time Warp from tPVP, bring back the old Moa, something like Ele’s sustain cut in half on self and half on others.
-Or don’t even cut Ele’s sustain in half, make Ride The Lightning a target only skill. Hell even if both Ele sustain and mobility gets cut I bet they would still be a decent class.
-Give Warrior a more accessible Building Momentum, Leg Specialist, and buffed Mobile Strikes.
3.) Make Warrior a broken class at full potential.
-Leave the traits as it is.
-Give Warrior Triple Swap at a 10 second base cool down with a 5 second cool down on Fast Hands.
I’m looking at number 2 and 3. The least ANET can do is find something around number 2. If they can’t figure out how to make something work around number 2, then its official to ask “Why didn’t ANET hire a bunch of monkeys to balanced this game instead of incompetent people who didn’t find the decency to actually see the problems within their game?”
Sorry dude, the game needs small balance changes, not big ones.
Warriors are limited, no doubt about it.
BUT warriors in 100 b spec DO have great burst and are viable. But perhaps not in the way that people want warriors to be viable.
Additionally, this is the only viable way to play a warrior that i have seen.
I think some other specs are semi-viable like hammer control.
What about the “spartan” build… axe/mace sword/shield with lyssa runes and shouts – (I think the lyssa runes remove conditions on shouts). Is that one not viable? (I’m seriously asking because I don’t know and am curious)
I havnt seen anyone running that on top teams, or even in paids as far as i know.
Mostly you see some variety of 100b. Usually axe/sh, gs, or swrd/shld gs. Other than that Ive seen control warriors and thats it. some dude posted a thread here on a longbow spec that he claimed was useful, i havnt tested.
but even if specs other than 100b can cut the muster they are probably sub par to 100b.
Warriors are limited, no doubt about it.
BUT warriors in 100 b spec DO have great burst and are viable. But perhaps not in the way that people want warriors to be viable.
Additionally, this is the only viable way to play a warrior that i have seen.
I think some other specs are semi-viable like hammer control.
I’m sorry but i can kill most memsers 1on1 with little trouble. Even in the paid teams mesmers lose 1on1’s all the time.
Certain classes are stronger 1on1 because of how they match up. Eles and in particular rangers will own a messy 1on1.
At the op: Here is the best suggestion you can ever get. Either roll a mesmer yourself, and see how they work. Or get a friend who plays a mesmer to come duel you and explain how shatter works. Once you learn to predict the shatter and avoid it, youve got the mesmer by the balls in 1on1. Because shatter usually has a huge tell , and its on a reguler timer. A HUGE percentage of a mesmers damage comes from shatter. Once you learn to counter it, gg mesmer.
A good thief will go 50/50 vs a mesmer.
A properly speced engy can give them trouble.
A good ele should beat them 1on1 almost always
A trap ranger will just slaugther a mesmer 1on1.
Warriors and necros can struggle vs a mesmer, but a good necro can do an awful lot of damage specially if they can kite.
I dont know why you have troulbe vs mesmers so much, other than if you cant quickly spot the real one and dont know when shatters are coming.
I’m able to kill the majority of memsers i meet in 1on1, and i play alot of paids, so not just the terabad ones you see in hotjoins and frees.
No one likes conquest game modes long term…. Deathmatch in every single pvp game is always the most played.
The most popular pvp game in the world, league of legends, isnt a deathmatch game.
not to slam deathmatch, i like it.
I’m not the biggest fan of conquest, but its alright.
Still, its not deathmatch that is the most popular.
Explain me exactly whats the difference between killing the lord while the doors are still closed and a mesmer which abuse his portal to freecap the buffs? Also you have a slightly chance to kill the attackers before they are able to kill the lord.
I explain you in detail why it is an exploit: You need to get in range to start the channeling. When you port out of the range the channeling should be interrupted since you are not in range anymore to interact (like every other class) and you are also not able to finish channeling when do not port back to the buff.
However its somehow frustrating that Arenanet is not able to make a single statement. I mean already high ranked people from curse think this abuse is legit…but maybe they just cant compete against other high ranks without it (sorry bro you deserved it)
I guess easiest way to fix it is to increase channeling time to 11s.
I feel that the portal cap/shadowstep cap etc needs to be fixed. So im not here to defend it. But the difference is that the game had in its design the idea that you could channel CAST something and then port somewhere else to finish it. Its a major mechanic in how certain classes play (ele, and thief in particular).
Where as porting through a door wasnt at all by design.
Now having said that, that design has led to an issue with these cap points that wasnt forseen. So somehow they should address that. Interesting tip though, if you know where the mesmers portal leads to, and have someone nearby you can interupt him there.
Awesome, I’ve been wanting to ask the forums for something like this and I’m glad you came up with the idea.
Thanks a lot, it’s really helpful. If a mod is reading, I’d recommend a sticky since a thread like this is useful to everyone.
I have a feeling that , with balance changes coming down the road the meta is in for a big shake up. that might date the info and suggestions posted here.
Ranger was “UP” for a while or so the QQ on the forum has lead us to believe.
Ranger is now the strongest Roam/Point Assault IMHO
85%Chance to win 1v1 against any class, including mesmer/thief/Guard ? Check.
People are now starting to realize mesmer isn’t OP as it used to be, QQ has shifted towards Ele/Ranger so the tiers look more like this for me personally;
Ele/Ranger/Guard
Mesmer/Thief/Warrior
Necro/Engi
Mesmer/Thief/Warrior seem to be the ~most~ balanced,
Warrior lacks condi removal though, maybe a little bit of a boost here would be nice It’s still afaik as good a roamer as a mesmer/thief.
“ppl are now starting to realize mesmer isnt as op” . Mesmer got a nerf dude. He literally isnt as strong as he was.
Look, engies are seeing use nowadays, but i wonder if part of that is people exploring. I still feel the class needs love.
also, warriors 100b spec is quite powerful but everything else about the class is troublesome.
Every class is viable ( even if it is in only 1 or 2 specs). But not every class is equal. You could pretty much always trade a warrior for a thief, or a mesmer. Sometimes the warrior is the better choice though if you already have those classes and need a roamer.
Its funny. If thief is so much trouble you would think all the top teams would run one. But only half of them do.
And yet, those top players, often somehow manage to avoid the burst, or even kill thiefs while in stealth because of that ‘prediction’.
Thiefs are fine.
Also, thiefs would prefer deathmatch to conquest. you cant hold points in stealth, it would open a lot of new builds for thiefs to have deathmatch.
Team fights typically last 30 seconds to a minute. Idk how great that would be to Q up for.
Lack of healers make death match unlikely, unless it was structured as a best of format.
And @ the above poster, i cant disagree with what uve said enough. Stealth is core to the thief, it has counters like dodging backstab, or aoe into it. Portal is strong ill give you that.
Limit burst? are you kidding bunkers would nearly never die.
Eliminating burst/stealth, might as well delete thief. Tbh this sounds like you want to make it a more forgiving game. I prefer the make a mistake and you die aspect myself, makes it a higher skill curve game.
If, as a thief, all you care about is 1vs1 and not overall tourny viability.
Go heal and condition cleanse on stealth, and caltrops , and do the conditions right back to them. Its long, but u can probably wear em down.
I’m just glad people are saying its rangers that are the best 1v1 spec instead of mesmer’s anymore. Finally the heat is off of us for being called OP and blah blah blah and qq
Several classes can 1on1 a mesmer.
Ranger ele should win the 1on1.
A thief seems to go 50/50 with mesmer depending on how its speced.
spell thats have cast bards (this basically includes capping) allow you to use ports to move mid cast.
Common example, cloak and dagger +steal.
Churning earth and teleport on ELE.
So, this feature is by design, but i think an unintended consequence is to use movement ports on the buffs. Esseentially using a buff is a cast time ability, and you can use any non attack port combined with a cast time ability.
If a mod is reading, I’d recommend a sticky since a thread like this is useful to everyone.