Guild Wars 2

I must agree with X T D, resetting the Glicko would just:

* Horrible match-ups until it stabilized back again
* Not really change the outcome
* Lots of angry because their hard work is gone for months
* Probably drive lots of people away from WvW for a while (and into PvE or out)

Liston.9708:

oscuro.9720:

Most WvW guds like their current server, or are dedicated to their server. Not much would change…

Not on NA below t1…..

Weird, since I’ve played with and against several guilds that enjoy playing on NA servers, and are at tiers 4-8. And I am playing in a guild currently playing in T7 that enjoys it a whole lot! (And certainly under no circumstances would we want to move to T1-3)

Different people = Different opinions/tastes/preferences etc. Don’t blanket state.

Summary: By removing the idea of having a “home” borderland, we can avoid having 3 identical or near identical maps, from both an aesthetic and game style perspective. Obviously some drawbacks, but might still be worth it.

The Idea:

We have 4 main WvW maps, EBG and the 3 identical Borderlands. The reason the Borderlands are identical are equally to not have to make 3 different maps, but also to keep the maps balanced. Now this locks 3 maps into the same play style limiting the ways we can play and enjoy this game mode. If the 3 Borderlands was significantly different from each others players could possibly have multiple new strategies, tactics, options etc. This obviously is dependent upon the maps themselves. But as long as the 3 maps remains identical, or even carter to an identical play-style, they can be seen as an actual limitation.

So, what if we abandon the idea of having a “home” map ?

Well first off a lot of players will now be warming up their shotguns and sharpen their knives and prepare to publicly flay me for daring to take away their home map, that I single handedly am trying to wreck every sacred defender of the holy home-border-land’s dreams, and I probably also kick puppies.

We would lose something, they major loss I see here is the feel of a “home turf”, our own personal backyard. I do not think this loss is insurmountable however. Many could replicate a lot of the same feeling by picking a map and try to defend their corner of that map, be it EBG or a single BL for example. And the actual craft stations, TP, portals, and other services in the citadel being the main material loss can be solved by placing out a few more service npc’s at the other spawns etc.

What could we gain from this ?

Right now, not much, because all the maps we have are very focused on the same thing, 3 way large scale battles. EBG, BL, EotM, and probably even the new Ziggurat (my nick-name for the new HoT WvW BL map) are all based around the same principle of having 3 large armies walk around, take things, defend things, and fight against each others. But it opens up possibilities for ANet to make different maps, with other objectives or goals, and later add them into the rotation.

If ANet actually made maps aimed for other play styles, then WvW could become a much richer environment. For example a map dedicated to roaming with many small objectives, thin squirrelling paths perfect for ambushes and traps, where to many people clustered together would be prime AC/fear wall targets etc. Or a huge city-scape map where you can literally fight wall-to-wall siege warfare. Huge Roman gladiatorial arenas that would fit perfectly for guilds groups fighting each others.

End words:

So before I’m keelhauled a couple of times for having the impudence of wasting your time with fairy-dust induced dreams and Rose-tinted glasses of hope etc: I post this because I am interested in the underlying design of the game and game-mode, and like to discuss with others about how things could possibly be made better, or why it might not work as I had imagined. I don’t really expect that ANet will jump up and down in excitement and trumpet the forums that “This is the solution we’ve been waiting for!!!” and go fix it in a work week etc. But hopefully they will read this, and pick up one or two ideas that they will bring along. Even more hopefully, I’ll enjoy a nice discussion and get some new perspectives. Thank you for letting me waste your precious minutes.

-Elrik

lil devils x.6071:

joneirikb.7506:

That is so weird, because I’ve seen more of the opposite, that people like the borderlands, but don’t like EBG. Might just be a perspective thing. My own guild is a WvW roaming guild, and we stick to Borderlands 90% of the time, most of us find EBG pretty boring because you’re funneled into big fights all the time, and don’t have the space to run around behind groups or objectives effectively.

So I guess this is just a matter of perspective/opinion/taste. When people call EBG waypoint in mapchat, I don’t bother going there, I’ll go do something else on the Borderlands instead.

Why is that? I am in T1 and I still solo’d a T3 Ql from BG my second day here. I do roaming, defense, scouting and zerg, and you can do it all on EBG too.. Unless you are in one of the broke Tiers, that isn’t caused by map landscape though it is caused by a broken Tier system. I play on all maps, but I am also frequently the one making calls to save keeps and towers, and receiving responses from those I am calling to come help.

Hey we’ve taken down T3 keeps with a couple of people quite a few times. I personally wouldn’t be able to take down a T3 tower alone just yet, but with 2 it would work. And we’re currently in Tier 7 (Server listed in signature) and we keep bouncing back and forth between different matches where we are top, bottom and middle, so no complains there, we’re having a great time!

The reason is that EBG and BL are designed differently, for different people. Borderlands is more open, more paths, more distance between objectives, more alternative paths. It is easy to sneak around objects and groups to get to things behind them. And for people (like my guild) we enjoy this mode and the many “small fights” that happens this way, usually 5 or less players on each side.

Where EBG is designed to funnel players into specific paths, where all the objectives are stringed together like pearls on a string, this encourages players to group together as they encounter each others on the “paths”, and creates a more group fight mentality map. I don’t really enjoy that, since I like small fights, but others really enjoy it.

So it is a GREAT thing that the two maps are different, so people can play what they enjoy, and go to the playstyle that suits them. I am really looking forward to the new map and hoping that it will be different from both the existing maps, so we can have even more different ways to play this game. And just because their said that they will add “heights” to the game doesn’t mean it will be instant deaths like EotM, imagine lots of heights the like of keep walls, where you fall down, take 5% fall damage, and just been placed in a position out of combat where you have to run back. That could be very fun and tactical in combat. Fear 3-4 enemies off the edge, so you got 1-2 minutes before they can run back to turn the tide of the fight.

I hope we get a keep shaped like a Ziggurat, where we fight on the different “layers” upward, with breaking gates to access stairs to the next layer. All the fun with fear and knockback to split up fights, the lord on the top, being able to watch the attackers stream up through the layers coming at you etc.

That is so weird, because I’ve seen more of the opposite, that people like the borderlands, but don’t like EBG. Might just be a perspective thing. My own guild is a WvW roaming guild, and we stick to Borderlands 90% of the time, most of us find EBG pretty boring because you’re funneled into big fights all the time, and don’t have the space to run around behind groups or objectives effectively.

So I guess this is just a matter of perspective/opinion/taste. When people call EBG waypoint in mapchat, I don’t bother going there, I’ll go do something else on the Borderlands instead.

You can use the "WvW armors and weapons" in PVE, just be warned that you can’t salvage them, so any runes/sigils you put on them will be stuck, you won’t be able to salvage them off.

Nope, there is no testing rounds like in PVP, many uses the PVP area for that, but it is still stuck with the pvp amulet etc. The test dummies etc are in PVP (unless my brain is glitching something fierce).

After digging up some more information about the Specialization on the HoT forum, I’m guessing it will be available to WvW as well, don’t know about PvP. But that the new skills, traits, unique upgrades and the weapon, are all tied into the "Specialization", so you’re not likely to be able to use them without it. And at the same time it looks like you will lose/sacrifice existing things in order to use/get the Specialization.

Was also mentioned that they where changing the class’s core mechanics for this, but no mention how or what. Like thief’s steal, rangers pets, etc.

Example, Ranger can Specialize into a Druid, by doing this you gain access to Staff as a new weapon, 1 new Heal, 1 new Elite, and about 3+ new utility skills, some new traits (probably replaces existing ones I guess). But you’re probably going to lose access to existing ranger things (no idea what, say for example you lose troll ungent, rampage as one, all traps, and short-bow: as an example of something possible).

They are going to be alternative play styles for each profession. Interesting take, I like it so far. Will have to see how it turns out naturally.

I do think the server population actually shows how many are online, or is affected/changes with that. As most servers shows a lower requirement at night time.

I’ve made a couple of different chat windows, so I can tune in/out on things I want to see or not. The one I usually use for all chats have emotes set to off, while I have a single one named "All" that is set to receive everything in case I have to check something, or wonder if I’m missing something. Every time I actually swap to that, and see the emotes etc, I just change back to the other one, I can’t find a reason to want to see emotes.

Haven’t watched the PAX video just read some of the text summaries on the HoT page. But from the sound of it, the "Mastery" thingy sounded more like a PVE variant of the WXP system, with "Hang gliding mastery" etc. So I doubt that will be of any use in WvW for obvious reasons.

The Mastery System

We’re reimagining progression with our new Mastery system. Explore new training opportunities for your character beyond level 80 and master abilities like hang gliding in the jungle, tearing the bark off of heavily armored Mordrem, or building new collections that earn precursors to a legendary weapon.

Specializations

Evolve your gameplay. With profession specializations, you’ll unlock access to a weapon previously unavailable to your profession as well as new traits, skills, and unique mechanics - all of which will transform your profession into something new.

Specialization sounds more like the general upgrades you would be interested in. Skills are likely being accessible as normal, so just save the skill points for them. Traits are probably unlocked in the usual manner, and I’m guessing the unlock’s are going to be tied to the new maps and story etc (but that you can still buy it off as usual at trainers).

No idea how they will handle the extra weapon or the unique upgrades.

Another option would be to be able to buy account bound runes for badges as well, though that would have a strong impact on the TP prices for a lot of runes.

envious...

do want.

I do think it would be nice to see some more rotation of maps in both WvW and EotM. I would like to see the EotM map in ordinary WvW mode, and it could be fun to try both BL and EBG in EotM-mode to see how that worked out.

Regarding Dayra and Jim’s argument here, I agree a bit with both. On the whole I agree that the 24/7 matches won’t work as they stand, but with a complete change of the scoring rules it *could* actually become all about the fights etc. I strongly suspect that the entire game mode need to change at this point.

I think the put it into EotM mode would work well, both for adding more players to it so you could actually fight people there as it was designed/intended for, but also for easier access to play against guilds on different servers for the GvG’ers.

I’m starting to think we should beg the mods for a sticky on how to get map completion in WvW, and the time frame it requires. (This has probably been suggestion thirteen brillion times before.)

Remove Rally (but keeping the down state, and normal heals), or limiting rally to 1 rally for 1 death, would probably be a decent change, that shouldn’t really make anyone (or at least not many) upset.

I’d enjoy it personally.

SoR actually has a pretty good chance for world completion right now, as you’re likely to bounce through tier 7 and 8, so you get a good variation of colors, and some weeks where you can dominate certain time zones.

Also, Both night capping and follow along the GSCH main zerg in prime time works, both should get you just about everything in a couple of weeks. And that is actually quite a short time for world completion in WvW for most.

AoE cap is also a balancing factor, so messing to much with it can ruin a lot of class usability.

There is also an upper ceiling to how much you can improve a server, compared to how much you’re limited by other factors, like bandwidth, lag etc. If you’ve experienced lag or slow reactions in the game as is now, then removing the AoE cap could potentially make that much much worse. And that is something you simply can’t make a statement on without sitting on the numbers and data that ANet has.

I would love that Tom, but plenty of others wouldn’t. It would remove a lot of the customization of stats etc, and remove things like ascended items from the equation, making them PvE only. I know quite a lot of people that would be kittened at that (but it certainly would save us a whole lot of gold!)

Grav.3568:

Remove EoTM as an overflow option and alternate it with EBG every second week in regular WvW. The new overflow option would be to send the player to the T8 server of their colour.

Liked most of your post, also Rimmy’s suggested changes. But I just wanted to point out how much I liked/hated this idea. On one hand it would be fantastic, and would completely shake up T7/8, on the other hand those of us that has come to love the quiet roaming, it would get all kinds of icky to find 200 T1 players running around doing stuff…

Really on the fence… It would practically mean that T7 and 8 swapped places each week.

Sounds like you play during night time, I think every server is that quiet during night/morning etc. If you gathered every single night/morning player over all servers, you *might* have enough to stack one map on each of 3 servers daily ?

Also like most of Crius’s suggestions.

A couple of things if we want to remove zergs:

Enable Friendly Fire
Enable Collision Detection
Double or remove all AoE Limits
Make the AC get damage multiplier for each person hit

Yes I’m joking (for the most part), but it would be hilarious to see all those added together at the same time for a week, and gone to EotM to start messing with zergs.

I like the idea, but wondering how much work this would be. I’ve had another idea for a while, that I should probably get around to post soon.

I would love a system similar to the PvP build system, where you could customize and swap things you had unlocked, so you could go in and change the runes with a simple click, instead of either buying new armor or new runes and ruin the old ones etc.

But I know it won’t happen, gold sink needs to exist.

Nope, it is a photo-shopped picture, he has just cut off hte top and pasted in citadel on top of where Garri used to stand.

It is much better than what I could have done :p

Another note to this, NW camp looks like it is very vulnerable, since the change in the map will close of the two north ways to it. Still got the bay/wurm gte way and the normal way down to garri sentry though. Think you might have chopped a bit to far south.

While I agree that there is way to much wasted space up on the north of BL, I’m curious what you wanted to achieve with this ? North camp is gone, you wanted to replace Garri with Citadels instead as a new keep ? Or will Citadel remain a spawn area and cut down to 2 keeps ?

I see both NE and NW camps, and N camp obviously removed. I can see traces of both NE and NW towers, are they in or out of the map ?

I we remove Garri, NWT, NET, and NC. that reduces map from 145 to 95 PPT, further making the map less attractive than EBG (doesn’t have to be a bad thing). It also seems to make things much closer, spawns are closer, and we would be focused more at the 2 remaining keeps. Might be interesting.

Note: I’m biased since I play on very low pop server, higher tiers might need all those extra structures.

McWolfy.5924:

Rid regular xp from wvw, eotm. Add tomes. —> way less low lvl leveling. Players will come with high levels to earn tomes

Less ways to play as an uplevel, don’t think that will ever work. The only way I can see this work would be to also use PvP’s level system (The no level system, you are 80 with PvP amulets etc). Which I do think could work quote well, it would certainly save a lot of costs on our equipment -_-’

Stealth in this game really makes me prefer the method used in so many other games, long time stealth out of combat, for one good back-stab, then no re-stealth while in combat. Alternatively a single skill (shadow refuge) to re-stealth in combat (to either run or back-stab again), I think a more interesting mechanic with back-stab would be that it did less damage, but triggered on blind (and expired it), and or combo with flank/rear, so if you got a rear attack on someone blinded you got a really strong back-stab.

/off-topic

Still undecided, both liked and disliked, and can’t quite put the finger on exactly which parts yet. Need further analysis.

Yes, maps are time/work/cost intensive, so ANet definitively wants to make as few new maps as possible, especially considering the reception EotM got, which actually did do what the OP mentions. So new maps are highly unlikely.

And between EBG, EotM, Borderland (and also the old Borderlands with Orbs btw), they have enough big 3 way battle maps anyways, so if they did make more maps, I’d wish to see them make something different to encourage/reward different play styles (Roaming, Havoc, Siege, etc and not just Zerging). But now I’m even more off topic.

The borderland map already have a shift from winter landscape in north to more temperate in the rest of the map, EBG has swamp areas around south west etc. I think just changing some more of the maps like this would likely help a lot, like slapping on different tiles sets on each of the 3 borderlands (except that that to would be a lot of work for ANet).

Ah well, would love to see it, but really don’t expect it. Think I’ll play a bit more EotM just because I like the map.

Would love to see more variety in the maps, especially the borderlands. EotM was quite nice in that aspect, and I would like to try the map in normal WvW (for that, and other reasons).

Off topic: OP we seem to have very different tastes for maps, I can’t stand most of Shiverpeaks, find most of Maguma boring as heck. But do love the Ascalon and Kyta maps. But nothing is as horribad ugly as Orr. I also love the borderland map, but hate that it is 3 identical copies, and no fan of EBG.

I agree that getting world completion on the lower tiers can be hard. I did manage 100% world completion in tier8 myself back when we where second to last spot for a good while, and my server had not been green even once during about 2 months or so.

Mostly I managed this because I found a guild that like roaming, so we kept playing small groups 3-5 players, after just playing with them I ended up having all towers and camps. The only challenge left was keeps, they are easy to get on your own home border, both because of reset time (as mentioned above) and because your home server often recap these. The largest problem for me was the green keeps (because we where never green).

For those though spots, I recommend playing at off hours, night morning etc, get some friends or guild members to join you in one of the off hours, and go work at it. (Easiest is Cata spot south bay, cata spot west ills, and water gate garri).

Since you’re up against SoR I recommend just learning the time when GSCH plays and avoid that time, and try to pick sometime after they’ve played for the day, will make it much easier for you.

It can be done, you just have to be very patient.

Edit: I’ve also seen some large PvE/PvX guilds occasionally do map completion runs, perhaps talk with some of those guilds on your server, and see if they can’t do a once per month run to try to get map completion on a WvW map?

It is largely because most of us have no need to learn the GWEN/Zerg meta, because we can’t pull it off reliably (not enough reliable numbers). Many of the lower tier servers are also the least organized, and thus lowest participation on VOIP/TS etc.

Most people down here are roamers in one way or another, roamers are the ones that enjoy it down here. And on that aspect we don’t lose out, I doubt that most of the higher tiers would do well roaming against the bronze

This also further emphasis the zerg problem, because most zerg so little that they don’t bother change their builds around to much for a zerg, perhaps swap a weapon or something. So when we get zergs, it is usually zergs with roamer builds You know dagger/pistol thieves, longbow rangers, medi guardians, nike warriors etc.

*Insert break for high tier players weeping*

but you know what, I love it down here Then again I’m near allergic to zerg fighting, and tend to play PvE on reset night for that reason.

Sadly this is just why I don’t enjoy EotM much.

Wondering how much work it would be to setup own PVE/PVP versions of EotM. So people could join what they wanted. On the other hand, it is a good practice ground to test at fighting against pug zergs most of the time.

Actually, I’d love to see the EotM map added as a normal WvW map with PPT and all for about a month, just to see how that map would actually play out as a non K-Train map.

Before the screams of "oh no!" "blasphemy!" and "get out of my game mode you kitten!" incoming, The map itself is beautiful, it has a lot of interesting mechanics, and it would be fun to try it just for something different while still playing WvW and not K-Train, and it would be fun to see people actually try to defend and roam on it and not just zerging full time. I want to see it.

Kaineng have no que’s

From what I’ve seen, most of those "faceroll" build players are just bad, so isn’t a problem. I typically get more worried when meeting someone with a build I can’t instantly recognize, as they are likely much better and can face roll me easily.

Well, I’m naturally weak against Mesmers since I haven’t figured them out yet (playing with or against). So a faceroll mesmer could probably trash me up. But on the whole I go by the quote of:

"The balance between the two classes is fine. The part that needs to be fixed is between the keyboard and the chair..."

If they do consolidate servers or make some alliance system etc, I do hope they take into consideration the people that like to play on low population servers, either by making own low population alliances/servers/leagues that only play against each others. Or alternatively makes some maps for WvW that actually rewards such play styles, and discourages zerging (either through hard counters like map user limits, or soft counters to simply make zerging completely inefficient at capping 15 different objectives at the same time).

One thought I’ve had was to make a own "WvW Idle/service" map, something similar to the Heart of the Mists map for PvP. And move all services there, still be a part of WvW maps, where you could idle and not get kicked out after 15 minutes. Also let it be a map that unlike the other WvW maps doesn’t force you to leave, so if you only do WvW you can stay there as a server specific WvW map (even under reset, since it’s not part of other servers in match-up).

I don’t know how useful that would be, on one hand you get distanced from the borderland in case anyone asks for help. On the other hand I know of plenty of people that uses WvW as a quick way to access services or just as a free way to teleport back to LA without using silvers on WP’s.

It wouldn’t quite take the old role of LA, where people could go to rally people to help in WvW, but it would also give us a specific place to find server mates that might be interested in WvW again. Who knows. I sure know ANet does not want to invest in another map, unless they recycle something.

Remove Rally from death state, the rest could stay. Should fix the main problem with it.

Include a WarHorn or a belltower or something else fitting for the place, that works together with the other warning system.

Been thinking about this one for a while, and I’m uncertain. One one hand this is probably one of the best ways we get new players into WvW, after Mega Server. On the other hand, as you say, 20 people sit doing nothing.

Not that it is much of a problem for us on low tiers, it isn’t like we ever que a map anyways.

This could be solved with the idea to turn Lion Arc into a server specific map, so we got a place to gather up recruits and rally people to server, and craft and idle etc. But it would kitten of the PvE players.

Actually, the easiest might be to just remove Obsidian Sanctum from the WvW and put it in EotM instead. Just move the entire map, since it doesn’t really affect the WvW outcome much anyways (except for PPK right now I guess).

That would be kind of interesting.

There are unfortunately server issues. Same reason we can’t play MegaServer between EU/NA.

There are some interesting possibilities with playing together with NA/EU servers, and one option often mentioned is teaming up 2 servers, one from each region in an alliance system per match-up. That could really help a lot of servers coverage. Wish that was possible.

The Dev himself brought up the Alliance system as an option in the CDI thread about population, and wanted discussions aimed toward that.

It does have some advantages for them, it would be a self regulating system that can scale to change in player base, and they already have the technology for it from MegaServer. The main question is how they are going to implement it.

I for one hope they don’t try to pidgeon hole everyone into the top tiers numbers, and set a couple to be low pop alliances as well.

Remember that they have been discussing a "Alliance" system for WvW, which would essentially be Megaserver of a sort. So this might actually happen, might even be planned. But ANet doesn’t like to announce what they are working on.

"Derdraeken"

Promote a server to a higher Tier when it’s first 2 weeks in a row, or when it’s first 2 times in 4 weeks.

Just pointing out that this part would frighten the kitten out of the existing Tier8 servers, as right now most of us don’t WANT to go up in tiers, because we’re so understaffed we would just be punching-bags for other servers. It could quite possibly end up in a race to NOT-WIN. That said, my own server wouldn’t mind bouncing up to T7 every now and then, now that we got some new and interesting servers there.

I can also imagine that the T1 servers would blow a kitten over this, or just organize theyr week pushes ever further to avoid any change to happen.

---

A well done "Alliance system" as they are calling it, could be interesting. But if they don’t pull it off "well done" it could very well break what is left. I am curious to see where they are going with the idea, but I also fear where this could possibly lead.

I loved the joke threads earlier about how many months/years it would take to get some of these titles with doing nothing but flipping smc every 10 minutes etc for 40 hours a week.

Definitively agree that at the very least these should be reduced by at least 1 zero on each, probably more. I would love to see how many actually got some of those titles in the 2.5 years, I’m willing to bet on nobody having the defend SMC one.

The general idea I see here is that the signal flare would be automatic, by the npc’s activating it (robotempire wanted the npc to be invulnerable while doing it, I kinda like the idea that he isn’t, so a good coordinated group could assassinate the npc before he got to the flare on say camps and towers).

I agree with Ark’s opinion on the no need for WXP Scout Mastery. This should be something anyone could participate in and get some reward. A possible WXP Scout Mastery might give some bonuses after triggering a signal flare for example.

Other ideas to this, you could have the NPC fire a general flare so you can only see the general direction, but a player could add color signals to it, so others could identify it, or even make a stronger signal flare so it would be visible over larger part of the map.

Most of the towers have those funny looking open domes in lords room, perfect for this.

I like the idea, I’ve been thinking about similar or other warning systems myself. Having a system that still requires you to scout, but makes it easier than having to be everywhere at the same time would really help.

I was thinking something very similar like a beacon-fire, signal flares, or a warning horn, or even a mix of such. That could be tied to upgrades, start at none, and then add to each upgrade. But somehow leave it possible for an organized group to interrupt and kill guards before they could set of the alarms.

* It would make upgrades feel more valuable, as the more upgrades the better warning system the object could have (either through extending ranges, adding more ways, or even just getting more guards that can pull the alarm).

* It would make scouting easier while having them move about instead of sitting stuck watching the mini-map, and still letting you check out things that happened nearby, without pulling every single person on the map the moment swords on NW camp etc.

* Not as immersion breaking (for those that likes that kind of things, not for everyone I know).

* It could even reward players a scouting bonus to pull the alarm first, giving a tangible bonus to scouting. (not perfect, but at least a step towards).

---

Another idea that might or might not work: Have white swords function like orange swords just with a lower cap, so say 6 people cause white swords. Then a full group of 5 can do things without pulling swords, encouraging small groups, but pulling swords the moment they hit a single enemy player (6 players).