Guild Wars 2

Shaogin.2679:

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

The Phelps example another time, swiming the 4×100 race, a top tier player (world champion level) give a lot of seconds of advantage to their teammates(local champion level players), a player of national champion level can do it also, but a regional champion dont give that high amount of advantage seconds and relies on their teammates to be competitives , the other team can easily eat that advantage with a few seconds for swimmer

But you are ignoring that nothelseth is not the only one to climb out of bronze. There have been many other AVERAGE players that have done the same thing. So what is your explanation for them?

im not ignoring it, the explanation is luck(or not have bad luck in teams) in a few key matches, now in this moments im in top bronze with a short win streak i get silver, if luck gives me better win streack i can climb out of reach of bronze players, silver is so populated to not get them in team, and suposetly not geting the same amount of clueless ones per match

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

The Phelps example another time, swiming the 4×100 race, a top tier player (world champion level) give a lot of seconds of advantage to their teammates(local champion level players), a player of national champion level can do it also, but a regional champion dont give that high amount of advantage seconds and relies on their teammates to be competitives , the other team can easily eat that advantage with a few seconds for swimmer

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Soothsayer.9206:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing.

What is with this “He took advantage of inexperienced players” argument. From what I saw, people on the forums felt like they were trapped in a lower division than they deserve to be in and blame the system. Other players come in telling them that it is just the division they are supposed to be in and that if they were better they would move up. Then those disgruntled players were all like, “Oh yeah? Let’s see one of you pro players start off in bronze and try to climb out!”

So then nothelseth is all like, “Ok, I will!” And he streams his results and climbs all the way from bronze to legend. Now all those disgruntled players, having been the ones that issued the challenge in the first place, are all like “Wow, you’re a jerk for taking advantage of those poor noobs” and “Oh you’re just trying to feed your ego” or my favorite, “Well that doesn’t prove anything cause you’re a pro player.”

Like WTF people!? He did this project at the request of players here on the forums to show that you will eventually climb to where you belong. There have even been other players climb from bronze to gold despite not being pros. Yet you guys are refusing the evidence provided because it goes against what you believe, and you have nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, to support your complaints other than personal opinions!

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones.

Again players said that no one could climb to where they belong if they get placed lower in Bronze, then those same players changed their rhetoric to only pro players can do it, but other players have done the climb as well that aren’t pro-League level players ( I did the climb I am at best a mid to high gold player) those same players claiming no one can do the climb to get to their proper rating dismiss or don’t acknowledge those players testimonies.

So which is it? Can players that start low get placed where they are supposed to be or can’t they? There is overwhelming proof showing players can, and not so much proof stating they can’t.

People just don’t want to face the reality they aren’t as good as they thought they were because zomg “I got Legend s1-s4”.

No
If you are dropped too far from your true rank you have the skills to scape, but if you fall only a few steeps your skill advantage is not so great to make the game and you have to rely on a fair mm that lets you gain a bit more of 55-60% to slow climbing.
and there how everyone i post my case:
Im a PvX player i play pvp on a regular basis 3-4 match a day on seasons a bit more but not much more, after placements i get on high gold t2(higher than i think i belong, bouncing in silver tiers)after this i get droped to bronze 2 with a constant loss streak of 30% w-70% l now i get stabilized my wind ratio in bronze / silver and today in evening i played 2 games in the firts we lost 500-300 in the second we win 500-25 and…. 6 of players repeated in the two games in firts we are one ranger one necro(that after talking about start split they go to home that i called for me and all the match do the same home,killed, home… no matter if home are ours or not) a warrior gs/shotgun (1,1,1,1,1) my guardian and another guy, in other team there was a duo, second game in my team only me and ranger of the anterior game and the other team the duo and the war and necro of last game (in this the same necro come to our close not going to take first their home that remains unclaimed and all match the same: dead, our home, dead… )
you think a mid/ low player like me or the other druid guy can carry(i dislike this word) a team with these two clueles players? the answer is not, we can only trust in fair matchmaker and slow climbing to the place

nothelseth.4621:

You doubted mew.
You said the kitty wouldnt make it.

Elo hell has been destroyed by the GOAT kittykittymeowmew,

http://imgur.com/a/Tn2OW

80% winratio from 600 rating bronze to legend, all soloque, all kittyness.

now, the kitty is going to rest for the rest of the season because playing on alt accounts in legend is being a wuss.

i have a question for you:
how a ESL pro land in 600 rating?

xeonage.1253:

one word : lucky
You may be have a little chance hit them between their dodge. But this is all about Lucky. No any skill there. And also you can watch them kill the lord of Foefire in the NPC stacking position but no way to stop them.

self entitlet pros will said you that is a easy target, that their evade frames have holes and its only timing matter.
For normal players playing in normal computers and normal net acces is only a matter of luck, recognising their evade patrons+calculating cast time+net lattency+human reaction time to land your hit in the window of non evading in mid of evade is a matter of luck unless you have too many hours in game and a near than the firts part recognision an calculating cast time are pure by incstint and of course top tier computer and top tier net connection

Terrorsquad.2349:

I can only play once every few days and here I am, -650 decay and in Bronze (never been there lel)

I only played 2 matches and what annoys me most is that I lost both of them and lost +100 rating for it.

Like wtf, can’t carry teams going 5v1 mid all the time.

Second game I got farmed by enemy thief much better than me, probably being in bronze due decay aswel but..
MM doesnt make any sense when playing with decay… U got put with ppl who are stuck in bronze (new or less exp players) and ppl who come from Gold/Pat and Legendary (good, veteran players) being in Bronze due decay.

The MMR is way too volatile when playing with decay.

THAT IS A NO-GO.

1 decay is too low
2 they(anet) said decay afect your rating in scoreboard, not your mmr , you are in bronze for classification things but in your real mmr for mm
3 in gold plat if you play ofpeak hours can easily be farmed by ESL level players due to lack of population(read the threats about q manipulation)
4 if you decayed you have a bonus of +100 score in a win, that is you thing your mmr is volatile
5 firts matches after clasificatory ones are big reward or big loss
6 whith only 2 matches you think you deserve x position more than one with hundreds?

Supreme.3164:

You know what…as long as they hard nerf Confusion and Torment we can all be happy they do too much for the conditions required to apply double dmg..I mean asking people to stop moving and casting for several secs when the game mode needs you to stay still in a small circle to win? and when these 2 conditions can be applied by AA?…I mean…c’mon

the main isue is confusion, making they do damage if you do nothing is a PVE thing(mobs specially boss ones dont spam habs and confusion is useless in that situation), they had to rollback them for pvp to only do damage if you cast something, not doing nothing is enough punishment in PVP to have also to take dmg

Cynz.9437:

When comparing condis to direct damage people forget few things:

1. condis ignore toughness/armor. You could argue that people have condi cleanse or resistance but same goes for blocks/protection etc. vs direct dmg.
2. condis have side effects like healing reduction or preventing player from casting skills because they were meant as utility originally and not burst damage. Imagine backstab would stun you or put your heal on extra CD – yeaaaah, this is exactly how condis work atm.
3. condis require 1 stat to work where for proper direct damage you need at least 2 stats, 3 stats ideally.

Overall i think they shot themself in the knee when they allowed certain condis stack and increased their damage. Condis became so absurd that anti-condi measurements were needed and so powercreep was introduced in form of resistance and passive condi cleanses. There is no going back from this anymore.

I think Anet won’t change the damage condis do, however in this case condis need to lose their utility with more stacks, e.g. the more poison stacks you have the less (exponentially) is healing debuff or the less damage do confusion stacks if target casts a spell. It would be nightmare to programm (dot damage is generally nightmare to programm) but, as i said, devs created such rather unconfortable situation themself. Of course they can just ignore the issue :/

1 blocks block condis equal, you had to be hit to get a condi
2 not all condis have side efects burning, bleeding haven’t

Chase.8415:

Mushin.3928:

Not expecting this suggestion to be well received by the community:

What should happen is that the rank requirement should be completely eliminated. New players, or players who haven’t played Ranked mode in more than one season, should start with 0 rating. Even if you ace your placement matches, you’ll still be in bronze coming out of them. This also solves the current ridiculous problem of people placing in Legendary straight out of placement. If need be, a new division could be added (“Iron”?) so that people have some experience under their belts by the time they get to silver.

Unranked just doesn’t prepare you for ranked mode. People run off the wall builds there, so you might be more (or less) successful depending on what your build is. These days half the matches are in Coliseum which you can’t even play in ranked. You get teams in unranked and none in ranked. And during the season, the unranked queues are bad: long queue times often followed by ridiculous stomps one way or another.

There should also be a smaller rating change for early placement matches. I’ve seen a rating shift of 117 points for a loss in the first couple matches, thats just too much, whether for victory or loss.

Bottom line, if you want people to get better at ranked mode then they have to practice in ranked mode.

No requirement is something I completely agree with. When it is ranked, if you don’t understand the map you will be placed with others that have the same issue.

Problem is though, people are unwilling to accept that they are bronze, or they’re better than silver or gold. They always blame their teammates.

Fact is though, the only common denominator in these matches is themselves, so yes they do belong in that range.

no, puting a high requirement of level not is for newbies, is to make hard smurfing alts, rank can be farmed and is time matter to get it, increasing time is only to slow or making worthles for time consumed smurf alt creation, if you are againts it probably is you want to create smurf alts

raising the entry level can be an option, but there is another equal on imprtance, make a kittening non skipable tutorial of all map mechanisms, yesterday i had on a match on temple one dude who put on team chat after losing the cap buf: “wtf happened?, we had 3 points and suddenly lost all”

Tanglewood.7523:

megilandil.7506:

Tanglewood.7523:

Since Helseth and Sindrenerr are organising an event for us, I thought it may be helpful to remind people that these two subreddits that I created long ago still exist. Although only “PvP Teams” still seems to be in use, probably because there are no teams to scrim at the moment!

https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2PvPTeams/

https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2TeamScrims/

Link to Helseth’s reddit posts:
1st post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5o49l3/helseth_lets_talk_about_season_5_and_gw2_pvp_in/?st=iy08zsk3&sh=f0d005a1

2nd post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5nzmce/first_2017_pvp_tournament_hosted_by_sind_and/?st=iy090kse&sh=6a3cb7d5

Personal ramble:
I think Helseth absolutely hits the nail on the head in the YouTube video linked in his second post, with his hopes and vision for the GW2 competitive scene moving forward.

Solo / Duo and NO Team Queue just has to stay as it is.
What we do need is community run events and or even automated events!
That is a far far better way of providing the full 5v5 team based competitive game.

We used to have them, the Academy Gaming events! Personally I competed in many of those and a few ESL events before I stopped playing like many others around the time of the HoT release, but now I’m back and playing regularly and I’m sure I am far from alone in that.

Helseth briefly mentions Smash is his video and I really do see the similarities and value in having a proper competitive scene. As a Smash4 TO, who has grown a large scene from the ground up over the last year and a half. I know first hand how great grassroots events can be and what they add to the competitive scene and once you have these things and if they are well organised and a lot of effort goes into them, it grows and grows and pulls so many new people in.

no, no duo, only solo and a sort of team q, call automated tournamentts call team q call whatever a thing for teams to play improve and have fun in their terms not farming soloers

You’ve literally said “no” and then gone on to suggest the exact same thing I suggested.

ME: “What we do need is community run events and or even automated events!
That is a far far better way of providing the full 5v5 team based competitive game.”

YOU:“team q, call automated tournamentts call team q call whatever a thing for teams to play improve and have fun in their terms not farming soloers”

no, i said no duo in soloq, pure solo

Siren.2843:

I can live with DH’s, no problem, what I can’t live with however is the fact that you can run into a trap that has been placed there 1 minute ago. There’s no telling there’s something bad going to happen, because the trap’s owner is long gone. Hence: zero counterplay. Please remove that annoying random element. Trap duration should be 5 seconds to make sure they’re actually more carefully placed.

ooooh, put on top of traps and hologram of Akbar or a quagan for copiright isues saying “it’s a trap”
know you what is a trap?
laying traps on field to trap people is for what a trap is designed for, the “incorrect” use is instaseting on feet

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Cynz.9437:

I agree however it also really bothers me how crappy the rating gains are. I have won matches vs top rank 1 before, but even if you win vs duoqs that are so much higher rated than you are, you still gain almost nothing in comparison. The rating gap is so huge yet it is absolutely unrewarding to win vs such teams and extremely punishing to lose vs them. For some reason the system assumes 1700 equals 2200 when it calculates rating gains/losses – wth?

Your mistake is that you believe – incorrectly – that rating loss or gain is related to the MMR of your team vs the other time.

MMR changes are based on two things:

The first is the “win or lose” prediction from the respective MMRs vs the actual win or lose, which determines if you gain or lose MMR from this fight.

The second is how confident the MMR system is of your ranking, which determines how big the change is. So, a large MMR change means the system thinks you are far from your correct MMR, and a small change means it thinks you are close to your correct MMR.

Which is to say: your result was close to the expected result, like most of them have been recently, leading to high confidence your MMR is correct, leading to small changes as a result of the outcome of the fight.

and this is bad thinking. a ELO, glico or what is it is a ELO evolution, main source of improvement/decreasement is the diference of you vs your oponent, losing whith a far better oponent conducts to 0 or irrelevant change a victori vs a better one is max profit, a lose vs one worse oponent is devastating and that thing that only thing not implemented properly is that makes top ones be hapy whith that matchmaking, they play again worse ones whith some ¿legal? manipulations duo, ofpeak hours, qskiping other tops… and in the rare case they loose the damage is minimum, they are stablished in top by system.
a proper thing is if they lose those matches they have to be devastated for mmr lost throwing several positions and not willing to have another match with this devastating efec, prefering the 50-60% win ratio that is the correct thing playing whith her truly equals and having low mmr gain loses

mmr system confidence have to be a factor to matchmaking, not to mmr calculation

Shaogin.2679:

Wolfric.9380:

Agree to Shaogin except regarding solo Q.
Solo/Duo is by far the greatest population. I expect only 1% of all players will build/join a full team. Epecially playing it regulary. It might end in custom made random teams against trained premades (ups we already had it). It makes absolutely no sense. I support a full team Q but its independent. The just jump in or play with a friend heavily outweights full team Q.

Of course the solo/duo queue has a higher population, it gives the same rewards with a fraction of the effort. We have never had a pure 5v5 only Team Queue, it has always been mixed. Even when Solo Queue and Team Queue were separate, Team Queue was a mix of various team sizes. Anet has never provided players with any incentive for even giving Team Queue a try.

If players want to duke it out to see who the best solo player is that’s fine, but 5v5 is not the place to do that. You say jump in or play with a friend heavily outweighs full team queue, yet all I see every single season so far is people complaining about this very system.

5v5 was made for teams. If you want to play solo/duo/trio, then you should be fighting for 1v1/2v2/3v3 game modes instead of encouraging the further destruction of 5v5 Team PvP.

no
sinse gw1 they had random arenas and worked(yeah they are more like courtyard but is also team play), it dont work when mixing qs, random/solo q is a good game mode, you not only have to play your toon correctly you have to coordinate with unknows and that is part of the skill of soloq ,bringing precoordinated groups , dont matter the size, to that scenario is incorrect
and they have to implement other sort of q for teams, and automated tournament in stipulated hours or a 5 man q, or a mixed team q that can put you in scenarios 5 vs 5 or 2+3 vs 2+3 or even work to a mode for 2+2 vs 2+2 and in some cases rare ones with proper adjustments in a 2+3 vs 5. dunno know what of these solutions can be the better

1v1 is not an scenario possible with that umbalanced class system,

Zintrothen.1056:

The reason condition builds feel so much more OP than power builds is because you can apply the conditions and then run. With power builds, you have to stay active, but conditions are more passive. At least you still have to hit with the condition applying skills, but once you do, if your target doesn’t have resistance or enough cleansing, they’re done for while being effectively unable to hit you because you can just sit from far away. Or worse yet, there are those builds that can condi bomb you and then sit on you because they have so much regen or sustain (Warriors, Thieves, Rangers). Other professions need to stay far away to survive while bombing you (Mesmers, Necros, Engis). And why doesn’t condi Rev work? Because it can bomb you but it doesn’t have the same level of sustain or the ability to kite effectively while letting the condis do the work.

Condis are passive and thus they shouldn’t do as much damage as power attacks. However, we shouldn’t butcher condi builds. They need to exist because some professions are weak to them, and without conditions, those builds would reign supreme. Plus, more flavour is added to the game with more build variety. Conditions do need a nerf, but it must be done carefully.

You can either nerf conditions slightly across the board, or you can reduce the ability for professions to “bomb” you with conditions and do 2-3k dps and then play passively. I think one of the best solutions may be to reduce the duration of conditions. Don’t reduce the duration on all of them. Only some last too long, others are fine.

- Confusion is fine overall.
- Torment could use a slight shave.
- Poison should be shorter because of the healing reduction it does, but overall it’s fine. Maybe instead, just reduce how easily it can be stacked.
- Bleeding lasts way too long, especially with how easily it’s stacked.
- Burning lasts too long with condition duration builds and can be stacked too easily by Guardians and Engis.

Some none damage conditions could use some duration fixes too.

- Weakness is fine.
- Slow is fine.
- Vulnerability duration could use a slight shave, but it might be better to reduce its output by some specs.
- Immobilize is fine with some specs and far too OP with others.
- Crippled could be reduced.
- Chilled should be flat out changed. It should reduce movement speed by 33% and CD slowing rate by 33%, to match Alacrity.
- Blind should only ever last a few seconds, even from Thieves.

You need to be careful when nerfing duration so that specs don’t require expertise in order for them to be viable, but they shouldn’t be OP with expertise either. So, changes to how easily some professions can stack condis will need to be made, as well as how damaging some conditions are too. An actual balance needs to be made.

By the way, some power builds are OP too, but at least they have to be active to do their damage.

false argumentations

make a little suposition
someone whith a power build have to hit you 10 times to kill you whith condi build have to hit you the same amount of times to build that condi burts, but the power build insta kills you and the condi build had to wait Y seconds for condi ticks to aply and kill you, skill and active play is the same but having a big counter on your head saying you will be dead in 10,9…..2,1,now while the enemy dances around you makes the biased impresion of passive game( and big impotence )when is the oposite, the condi player has killed you (aplied the condi stack that will kill you while your condiclear is in CD) and have to survive that seconds extra to not be killed, while a power player havent to do that extra effort, after hitting you are dead period

other think is how in this moments some profesions had acces to combined condi bombs of milliads of low staked condis so perfectly mixed that penalizes you even for breathing (confusion + torment)
in my opinion condi damage is ok, condi aplication and cleanse must be reworked to play around a toon aplying less conditions (1-2 max) and working to build high stacks to burst or keeping med stacked to presure , and massive cleans reduced to be a valuable resource for the times you had to play vs more than one condi toon apliing diferent conditios

Tanglewood.7523:

Since Helseth and Sindrenerr are organising an event for us, I thought it may be helpful to remind people that these two subreddits that I created long ago still exist. Although only “PvP Teams” still seems to be in use, probably because there are no teams to scrim at the moment!

https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2PvPTeams/

https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2TeamScrims/

Link to Helseth’s reddit posts:
1st post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5o49l3/helseth_lets_talk_about_season_5_and_gw2_pvp_in/?st=iy08zsk3&sh=f0d005a1

2nd post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5nzmce/first_2017_pvp_tournament_hosted_by_sind_and/?st=iy090kse&sh=6a3cb7d5

Personal ramble:
I think Helseth absolutely hits the nail on the head in the YouTube video linked in his second post, with his hopes and vision for the GW2 competitive scene moving forward.

Solo / Duo and NO Team Queue just has to stay as it is.
What we do need is community run events and or even automated events!
That is a far far better way of providing the full 5v5 team based competitive game.

We used to have them, the Academy Gaming events! Personally I competed in many of those and a few ESL events before I stopped playing like many others around the time of the HoT release, but now I’m back and playing regularly and I’m sure I am far from alone in that.

Helseth briefly mentions Smash is his video and I really do see the similarities and value in having a proper competitive scene. As a Smash4 TO, who has grown a large scene from the ground up over the last year and a half. I know first hand how great grassroots events can be and what they add to the competitive scene and once you have these things and if they are well organised and a lot of effort goes into them, it grows and grows and pulls so many new people in.

no, no duo, only solo and a sort of team q, call automated tournamentts call team q call whatever a thing for teams to play improve and have fun in their terms not farming soloers

Stand The Wall.6987:

Crinn.7864:

Inability to tell what the enemy is using will likely force players towards “safe bet” builds, i.e bruisers that don’t have any hard counters. You’ll see a lot less novelty builds.

Classes like Necro, Thief, and revenant that have clear counters will become less common, while classes like Warrior, Druid, and Chrono will become more common.

ye this is my guess also. peeps picking more tankier builds. maybe this is preferable? maybe not though lol, I’m sure most peeps are aware what happened to everyones favorite amulets (celestial, soldier, settler, sentinel). although nothing like that exists right now, we could witness a return to such a style of gameplay. hmmm, hide enemy comp = hidden condi bunker nerf scheme?!?! sshhhhhh.

people going to bruisers, is what had to hapen in a solo q escheme, people going to more self dependant builds cuz you cant hope geting some suport build on team, but they untouched the part of heavy suport builds (ele druid) and people continues whith suport dependant builds

Archon.6480:

It leads to unfair matches with people picking counter classes, instead of working to improve their own team composition.

This would increase quality of play as people would be forced to think more about the roles they are trying to fulfill on their own team.

no, bad idea.
1 block switch classes
2 improve mm to soft cap class staking 2 max of a class
3 create a build manager
4 its all
swithcing to counter classes are bad idea, you counter one player(if not evil staked 5 of a class comp) but not gud againts the others, the idea of viewing team comp is you can predict their main mechanics and tune your build to be more efective/survive more

HeadCrowned.6834:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

HeadCrowned.6834:

They could for starters remove the restriction of being able to use the new weapons only when you equip the Elite specialization.

The entire purpose of locking the weapons (and skills) to the traitline is so that so when they introduce more elite specs they don’t have to worry about them cross-pollinating and causing huge balance issues.

Elite specs are designed to be balanced against other elite specs (the mechanical advantages, including class mechanic changes, provided make them a superior option to a core spec unless nerfed to the point of uselessness), it’s just we only have the one right now.

The fact that Elite specs are balanced against each other and not to vanilla trait lines is actually the core of the problem. They therefore remain superior, and that is not what I and many other players would like to see. I play only necro and ranger myself, but I wouldnt see any issues with being able to wear the GS as necro without reaper, or the staff as a ranger without druid. They made certain skills function in a ‘’pvp-only’’ way, I think it wouldnt hurt if they did this as well for the Elite spec weapons.

is not the problem, ELITE must be elite, the problem is that is along term design and not having another set of elites in 2+ years after xpac and posible having to wait for the third set a couple of years more after the 2 xpac this is the real problem, is that that makes that unbalanced sense

Phineas Poe.3018:

megilandil.7506:

unranked is not a reasonable practice environement cuz people practice in it… great argument

It’s not a reasonable team practice environment.

Making ranked solo-queue only and to tell people they can only play with their friends semi-seriously in unranked isn’t a good idea.

im not againts a team q, im againts mixed q, mixing teams all sort of it with soloers breaks the “competition”

Muchacho.2390:

megilandil.7506:

false for necros they had one of most powerful disengaging tools(fear) that in this meta is not used or the few they equiped is used on ofensive maners not implies that they cant kite
and the same for other classes , that meta uses some things that not implied that their are designed around another ideas and all clases minus the heavy ones and thief are designed around ranged

Thats wrong.

Necros never used fear as disengaging tool. Without traits the necro fears were never long enough for disengaging (hence a terrible tool for it) and were more used for interrupts. And with traits fear was mainly used for condi bursts (terror).

better disengaging that foe runing far from you and you can move in oposite direction to get a better distance gap????
that they never or rare used that not means that is a good tool for that

Tomiyou.3790:

megilandil.7506:

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Lol wut.

Thief 2 doesn’t teleport, you’re talking Shadow Shot, which is 3. And even then, the whole idea is to get Thief CLOSE.. yano.. MELEE range, lol. Thief has to do most of it’s damage up close, unless you play P/P (which is bad) or P/D (which is also pretty bad). So… yeah we need to get close.

Ele doesn’t come into your arguement because I wouldn’t called Dagger “ranged” as such, and they do no damage anyway so that’s a non-issue. If you die to Staff Ele then you’re bad, same goes for Scepter.

Engi uses Hammer, so doesn’t even fight at range.

Necro can’t kite literally anything so the range they have is an non-issue.

Ranger is the only one out of the ones you listed that can EFFECTIVELY kite and pressure from range. And yano… that’s the entire point of being a Ranger, lol.

Melee does generally hit harder than Ranged.

false for necros they had one of most powerful disengaging tools(fear) that in this meta is not used or the few they equiped is used on ofensive maners not implies that they cant kite
and the same for other classes , that meta uses some things that not implied that their are designed around another ideas and all clases minus the heavy ones and thief are designed around ranged

Almost every class right now is using 90% melee stuff. Sure the chrono has some range to its skills, but it’s intended as a point holder, which means you MUST stand in point = melee. Same with druid and dh, they need to stand on points and even if they want to stand outside the melee cleave, all the projectile hate usually forces them to come melee.
As for necro having fear to kite, tell that to warrior or thief. These two classes are so strong against necro not because they can stick on it, but because they can cc it.
The best kiting potential on necro is chill and #2 in shroud.

as said meta things, and for necro true i missed letting foes ice cubed or slowed that is they have real kiting potential but meta goes another way, and everybody plays meta complaining not having this or that(that they had but is not meta)is a balance thing

Phineas Poe.3018:

And unranked is not a reasonable practice environment. That’s where people play to learn new classes, try out different builds, and generally take a load off.

unranked is not a reasonable practice environement cuz people practice in it… great argument

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Lol wut.

Thief 2 doesn’t teleport, you’re talking Shadow Shot, which is 3. And even then, the whole idea is to get Thief CLOSE.. yano.. MELEE range, lol. Thief has to do most of it’s damage up close, unless you play P/P (which is bad) or P/D (which is also pretty bad). So… yeah we need to get close.

Ele doesn’t come into your arguement because I wouldn’t called Dagger “ranged” as such, and they do no damage anyway so that’s a non-issue. If you die to Staff Ele then you’re bad, same goes for Scepter.

Engi uses Hammer, so doesn’t even fight at range.

Necro can’t kite literally anything so the range they have is an non-issue.

Ranger is the only one out of the ones you listed that can EFFECTIVELY kite and pressure from range. And yano… that’s the entire point of being a Ranger, lol.

Melee does generally hit harder than Ranged.

false for necros they had one of most powerful disengaging tools(fear) that in this meta is not used or the few they equiped is used on ofensive maners not implies that they cant kite
and the same for other classes , that meta uses some things that not implied that their are designed around another ideas and all clases minus the heavy ones and thief are designed around ranged

Auroraborealis.7310:

So.. I mostly play all day, everyday and I can confirm that the mornings are completely plagued by non English speaking players.

Its extremely hard to strategically communicate with individuals that cant even speak English. I don’t hold where these people were born against them or anything, its not like they can help it.

However something needs to be done to address this issue. I honestly don’t even think many of them can even read what the abilities description says. I’ve noticed the vast majority of the non English speaking players are South American, and Brazilian, so it would make sense for those guy to get their own server, or at least add some sort of automatic translator into the chat box.

I know this might seem like a minuscule issue but its becoming more and more common. Most guilds I see advertising in chat now are for non English speaking PvX guilds. And that’s totally cool, but I was under the impression I joined a NA English speaking server, right now I feel like I was abducted and taken hostage in foreign country. In ranked its like being in a jail where no one speaks your language in the morning hours all the way up through lunch time.

1) english is not the earth language, is one of the most talked but only it
2) PVP is not server linked, is region linked amd there are 2(3 whith china) regions: america(english,spanish,portuguese, and some french) and europe (with much much more languages)
the problem is also you dont talk/read/write their language, they had the same obligation of knowing english than you of knowing their language, none

Xca.9721:

i would like to see soloq only and a separate 5 q team mode for ranked only next season, everything else belongs to unranked.

this is the ideal thing, the sistem works on solo or teamq.
duo trio and quad are not formats to “compete” they are formats for team players to practice their sinergies and mechanics when they dont have the full team —-→unranked

opener has in a sort of sense her point.
much players are arguing, especiali when they talk about thief , about the risk vs reward thing ant the 101 of this is that melee have to hit harder than ranged, in mele you have more risk of being hit than just casting/pewpewing at safe range

Kuya.6495:

I don’t blame a necro for losing to a burn guard. Meta necros are geared towards corruptions more so than condi transfers. Yea a necro could equip every condo transfer skill in their tool set and kill a burn guard easily, but then your necro isnt as good as what he’s supposed to do: corrupt boons. As a meta condi necro you have about 2 condi transfers in staff and plague signet and one condi clear on heal skill. That really isn’t enough to handle the amount of burn a guard can repeatedly place on you. The burn guard meanwhile, when you transfer hos burns back to him has: f2, purging flames, smite condition or contemplation of purity, smite on heal, and focus 4 if they take it over torch.

and burn guard also is constrained in their chose of skill if they want to burn… saying you cant equip something cuz your build orientation and the other can equip all their disponible skill and traits without lossing their build objectives is wrong,very wrong. burn guards need torch, need JI, use purging flames mainly as ofensive than a condi clear etc.

Daishi.6027:

If spear got the “Pin Down” treatment a lot of the salt would vanish.

But then I guess DH would argue that it’s then a dead and useless skill lol.

spear of justice? what? this is about burn guardian and spear of justice is the last resource for burn guardians putting spear of justice on CD means you lose the ability to aply burn every 5 atacks(3 if traited) and your only pressure resource

grayskull.2367:

Burn guards are OP as hell there everywhere now i have so little chance to clear 12+ burns burn of even transfer the condi on, even if i manage to do so they will just place then straight back kill me instantly impossible to fight when your get focus so hard as i all ready do be a necro adding a Burn guard into the mix is kittening wrong .

equip more condi clears.
every class had ways to deal with only one condi, burn guardian plays with only a condi, if you paly necro and only rely the condi counter in the auto transfer trait, your fault, get more condiclears
burn guard relyes on apliing only one condi, yes they had capability to constant presure with it, but its only one and every condi clear skill and her mother can clear one condi, the thing that makes they seem op is that you see guardians on enemy teams and you mentalize and adapt your build to play around traps and LB guardians and… surprise, they burn and you have sacrified your condi counter to get other skills to counter meditrapers, people crying to ad more build diversity and in the moment that a class had more than one possible builds, they get OP cuz you can predict the tipe you will find and prepare to counter them….

BlaqueFyre.5678:

megilandil.7506:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rune Darkmoor.3269:

I’ve mained guardian since launch and decided to pick up playing thief after some rediculous matches that a singular theif pretty much won for their team.

The reality is, with thieves current mobility you literally cannot punish their rotations, but they can guaranteed punish the opposing teams bad rotations.

To me it’s a matter of risk. If a Guardian rotates poorly, it’s just about a guaranteed death and significant loss toward victory. So every rotation matters and needs to be made with good judgement.

With a thief, their is no real risk except if you get caught by another thief that you can’t beat. If you rotated badly, just escape and move onto the next point. You’ll find a favorable situation fairly quickly if you have good judgement.

Going from playing guardian where every rotation is a matter of life and death to theif where it’s just this thing you do has been very interesting. Do I think they’re mobility should be brought down to Guardians level? No. But being it down where their is some level of risk of loss for a bad rotation.

Bahahaha life or death on Guardian, where it is literally carried by all the blocks and instant cast heals on the meta build while also being able to pressure a point. And there is risk for bad rotation when he enemy team plays smart, because You can’t balance around potatoes, Otherwise you get all the passives in game. Let’s see Thief has the most hardcounters in game.

And Thief is highly dependent on the teammates being able to hold a point or not die instantly, otherwise their decaps mean nothing. Maybe if Anet balanced all the classes and stopped relegating Thief to Decap/+1 as stated by Devs that’s what they want the Thief to be in PvP, while other classes can fill those roles as well as team fight effectively and 1v1 other classes effectively, maybe if they actually took PvP balance seriously they can take a look at Thief mobility but right now that’s not the case.

thief can never have teamfight capability, to give team fight capability they had to complete rework thief and lose all the evades.
defenses had to be balanced between capability of evading hits and capability of soaking damage, all thief defenses are based on evade, they have to get 0 capability of soaking damage and that means they cant stay in large fight cuz every lost bullet(aoe) kills them the same is the necro problem they have the most capability of soaking damage (the biggest hp bar and the extra lifeforce bar) and they get in “reward” 0 evade capability
a class that its hard to hit cuz a kittenload of evades had to die when finally gets a pair of succesfull hits and a class that can soak damage have to facetank all their damage cuz they cant evade, its a very simple thing
crying for teamfight capabilitys in actual thief design is crying for a inmortal OP thief big damage, big mobility, incredible dodges… and big hp or blocks or resistance…. no thanks

Apparently you didn’t understand what i said, people complain about Thief excelling at its only role, yet fail to realize other classes can fill the same role but also Team fight and 1v1 with more impact and reliability, yet want to take the Thief’s onlyy role away from them, does that make more sense? So if they nerf Thief’s only role then they better back it up with giving them team fight capabilities. So many people whine and complain but don’t look at everything as a whole they like to view things in a vacuum.

no other classes than mesmer with portals can go for the role of decaps without losing a lot of time in travel and if making a bad choise in the moment of going to decap a fatal error not being able of insta desengaging and insta correcting their mistake

Annabel.5127:

It’s really a shame all this ‘nerf thief’ talk stems from a single person in the pvp scene who uses his enormous reputation to influence future balance patches and create a tide of honestly absurd thief complaints. Where was all this QQ months ago?

Thief hasn’t changed, and the only thing that has is players mentalities.

To suggest nerfing pulmonary on the basis that “thief beats condi mesmer” is simply ridiculous. Since the removal of mercenary amulet, thief has always had the potential to beat condi mesmer, but nobody was crying about it – why? because it is unreliable, takes too much time, and 99% of the time the thief is better off creating an outnumbered situation elsewhere rather than spending 2-3 minutes attempting to 1v1 the mesmer on their node. That’s why we rarely see it happen in top tier play.

" TLDR " People need to learn to think for themselves and perhaps take some of the things their favorite streamer says with a grain of salt.

takes to looooooong time,and can do something better in another spot…
are poor justifications, the thing is thief can or not kill these classes not all classes can be killed in a pair of surprise hits, claiming that takes long time etc is not about class balance is about in game strategy class balance things is in hands of equally skilled players class A NEVER can kill class B issues

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rune Darkmoor.3269:

I’ve mained guardian since launch and decided to pick up playing thief after some rediculous matches that a singular theif pretty much won for their team.

The reality is, with thieves current mobility you literally cannot punish their rotations, but they can guaranteed punish the opposing teams bad rotations.

To me it’s a matter of risk. If a Guardian rotates poorly, it’s just about a guaranteed death and significant loss toward victory. So every rotation matters and needs to be made with good judgement.

With a thief, their is no real risk except if you get caught by another thief that you can’t beat. If you rotated badly, just escape and move onto the next point. You’ll find a favorable situation fairly quickly if you have good judgement.

Going from playing guardian where every rotation is a matter of life and death to theif where it’s just this thing you do has been very interesting. Do I think they’re mobility should be brought down to Guardians level? No. But being it down where their is some level of risk of loss for a bad rotation.

Bahahaha life or death on Guardian, where it is literally carried by all the blocks and instant cast heals on the meta build while also being able to pressure a point. And there is risk for bad rotation when he enemy team plays smart, because You can’t balance around potatoes, Otherwise you get all the passives in game. Let’s see Thief has the most hardcounters in game.

And Thief is highly dependent on the teammates being able to hold a point or not die instantly, otherwise their decaps mean nothing. Maybe if Anet balanced all the classes and stopped relegating Thief to Decap/+1 as stated by Devs that’s what they want the Thief to be in PvP, while other classes can fill those roles as well as team fight effectively and 1v1 other classes effectively, maybe if they actually took PvP balance seriously they can take a look at Thief mobility but right now that’s not the case.

thief can never have teamfight capability, to give team fight capability they had to complete rework thief and lose all the evades.
defenses had to be balanced between capability of evading hits and capability of soaking damage, all thief defenses are based on evade, they have to get 0 capability of soaking damage and that means they cant stay in large fight cuz every lost bullet(aoe) kills them the same is the necro problem they have the most capability of soaking damage (the biggest hp bar and the extra lifeforce bar) and they get in “reward” 0 evade capability
a class that its hard to hit cuz a kittenload of evades had to die when finally gets a pair of succesfull hits and a class that can soak damage have to facetank all their damage cuz they cant evade, its a very simple thing
crying for teamfight capabilitys in actual thief design is crying for a inmortal OP thief big damage, big mobility, incredible dodges… and big hp or blocks or resistance…. no thanks

not only platinums are getting farmed, this missadjustement snowballs through ranks, paltinums are getitng farmed by esl level players, golds are getting farmed by the platinums farmed by esl level players, golds are getting farmed by….

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

You do realize he’s one of the few people qualified to make that call, right? We’re seeing a lot of topics here, but those topics are part of the 3%, or the rare cases. Especially if you factor in the 100s, if not 1000s of players who’re playing ranked and the 10s of 100s of matches each one of them has done.

The point is, we now know the reason why it happens, and Evan is testing a fix.

Evan’s post was in response to why that particular match had such a huge skill gap, it does not explain why teams are split the way they currently are. I am not disagreeing with Evan on his evaluation on how that particular match-up occurs, but it still doesn’t answer my particular questions with what I have been observing.

It does partially explain it.

When the match was first formed, the numbers were even. Yes, 2 duo’s were placed in a single team, but if the match was truly even, that shouldn’t have mattered too much if the solo’s on the other team were good enough, and the solo on the stacked team was terrible. Two duos on a team isn’t a guarantee that they’ll win in a match where the odds are close to 50-50. It’s a high likelihood, but not a certainty.

However, since not everyone readied up, the system found substitutes to fill in the gaps, which just happened to be the non-duos. The system found substitutes who were worse than the original players. That happened enough times that it compounded the problem.

I’ll agree on one thing: the matchmaker SHOULD split up duos, regardless of what that does to difference in team MMR and expected outcome. Maybe it thought that the original matchup didn’t need to be split up for the most optimal match (lowest difference between team MMR). But since the matchmaker didn’t re-balance the teams after substitutes, the problem happened.

The only alternative is to have solo queue only, with a split queue (population likely won’t sustain it) for teams (of 2, 3, or 5) so that matches can be (2+3)v5 or 5v5 or (2+3)v(2+3). Again, the issue of finding substitutes can skew the match if that particular issue isn’t resolved.

IMO, splitting based on MMR/Skill rating is fine. Stacking a team with 2 duos is fine if the team MMRs are close, but logically, splitting the duos is a good idea too. Using other metrics like games played/won to split the team is not necessary.

if team mmr are close, staking duos are not fine, they put 5 soloers with not experience on play with eachothers againts 2 pair of player experienced in play one with other and even with some third part coms to cordinate/ call for help, to get a 50/50 match posible the soloers had to be a bit better than duoers, if duo are two pugs not have coms or use it just to chitchat is their fault to waste that advantage that is suposed to have

sephiroth.4217:

Every Time my team loses it’s always because of the thief. I don’t care if our marauder longbow/staff druid sat off point all game and did nothing, we blame the thief.

Seeing a Thief die to a Dragons Maw off point, all I can do is call him a pleb all game, he should have known there was static traps placed off point, he is pleb.

I watch thief try and spike something, but everyone’s explosive AoE stops him from getting anywhere near the stomp, everyone cleaves, rez gyro is rezzing, thief is pleb, should have stomped inside gravity wells and Dragons Maw. Thief too scared to cross Test Of Faith too, and there’s lots of those on points. Thief is bad, should play traps DH or Warrior instead, he is pleb for trying to play something that requires skill instead of spamming traps and aoe.

/sarcasm.

when you get a 4v5 match being the team of 5 whith 2 thieves,necro, ele, guardian in your team and having problems to win cuz the far is never decaped and the team of four can reagrup and zerk to a single point to get a 4v5 that intantly turn in 4vs 3 (thieves explode on first aoe)cuz they never had to care about their home you came and talk
yes someother can go to decap and let the other point fight a 4v2 ;-)

Prince Vingador.8067:

A bad guard can still be usefull, or a warrior, but a bad thief is a big problem.

this is the pure truth, thieves are the most specialized class in game, they have a role nomathers the meta and the best tools to do it, and this role is decap(eventually cap if they dont see the hp bars of teammates downing significantly ), +1 and controling the side mechanics in some maps (kill/steal beast in forest, making the base/boss alarm sound in foefire to drag people to base etc)
getting a thieve that thinks they have other job to do, is being 4 v 5.
in mid/low tiers bronze/silver this is most of the cases even you see some thieves using bow to be the first on midfight

Evan Lesh.3295:

MOAR DATA: ~3% of matches have substitutes which could* cause the original problem in this thread. We are testing fixes now.

and double staked duos?
this is not only substitutes fault, the “good” vs “bad” is a constant patron all wide matches, reviewing a random player history great part of games will be stomps, stomp victory or stomp defeat and something have to be made to adress this

burn guard is the only condi build that works proper, in my pov, heavy presion in one condi that can be cleared whith any condiclear not condibombing a kittenload of condis that only can be cleared whith heavy condiclears that are rares in all classes

Ninski.5680:

SolarDragon.7063:

Ninski.5680:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ninski.5680:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Burn dragonhunter is pretty much the worst guardian build available in PvP right now.

Why would such a bad build need a nerf?

Sounds more like a learn 2 play issue to me.

First of all, the pull is not unblockable or unavoidable. Assuming you’re talking about the Spear of Justice, you can simply block or avoid it the moment it’s being thrown at you.

They can’t drop their traps twice on a point, that’s just wrong. What they can do however, is put down new traps the moment you trigger the old ones (assuming the traps are off cooldown).

The 12 stacks of burning are only achieved if you allow the guardian to put every single supply of burning he has available on you. Why do you even let him get to that point? Why don’t you use a condi-cleanse after he put his strongest burns on you?

And have you even considered that Pain Absorption can be cast BEFORE the guardian puts ALL his burn stacks on you? No? Maybe you should try that next time.

Again, seems like a learn2play issue to me. Burn dragonhunters are weak and definitely do not need to be nerfed.

Get your facts straight before wasting my time for me to reply to you, I’m bouncing around between the top 50 and top 200 in ranked on NA, Spear of justice IS unblockable, here’s a screen shot. http://puu.sh/tjFcA/a85de3c575.jpg
By the time Pain Absorption is being casted, burn guards can put 12 stacks of burning on you, Judge’s intervention ALONE can do 30% of someones HP, Burn guard is also one of the top builds in ranked currently, and certainly is not the worst or even close lol.

Top 200 isn’t really a huge accomplishment. You won 33 matches and lost 19. That’s nothing to brag about. How about you play some more in ranked before you go complaining about certain builds? Burn dragonhunter is barely used because it’s bad and I will tell you why it’s bad:

There are 2 ways to build a burn dragonhunter and both ways sacrifice something crucial. One sacrifices defense which turns the burn dragonhunter into a paper cannon, the other sacrifices offense which seems rather pointless because why would you sacrifice direct offensive capabilities for the sake of something so unreliable as 1 single condi?

Thanks thats all you needed to say to prove you’re dumb, the rest of the paragraph was a waste of time on your part, a DH shouldnt have BOTH offense and defense, they should have to choose, burn guard SHOULD be a glass cannon, not have condi cleanses, power based burst damage and insane condi damage ontop of immunities and blocks.

Because no other class has offense AND defense, like macebow, bunker ranger, hammer scrapper, mender ele, spectral reapers, …. seriously.

I mean macebow is almost equally as broken, warrior has too much sustain especially with running power runes and zerker amulet, bunker rangers damage is pathetic, hammer scrappers damage is fair, its not OP at all. mender eles do dps??? Im missing ur point m8.

mender runes had power and prec, the only thing that prevent mender eles doing damage is presure, they had to be sticky in defensive rotation, but if one can freecast for a feew seconds they can do dps
the main source of damage for bunker druids is the pet,,, and surprise the pet does the same damage on bunkers builds that in power builds

saturday nigth i played a match on low time, 4 am and i get one player in team who played dh the way of a pew pew only uses lb on range, no traps no blocks no nothing only pew pew AA, i added to friendlist, the system not showed their mmr not showed me on rankings i cant know what is their mmr on the exact moment of match, but day after at evening when i come back on game system showed me, im around 1000 they had 550.
now few moments ago i played a match, doble duo on enemy and players that make plof in firts teamfight in my team i take home and before i cap it i had 4 enemys on the point after how match is in temple that 4 enemys camping the only exit and …. blowout

mysterion.1276:

It’s called variance, theres also a chance that the legendary duo is in your team so matchmaking is fine.

no, there is no chances:
mm takes 5 players of the aprox same mmr an makes a 5 man team….
after finds other team of the same aprox mmr and makes a match

the 1800+ guys have more math chances of geting the top ones than the 1700+ guys

mm have to put more filters than only mmr to work proper or be done a complete overhault in the form of geting firts a poll of players and after sorting them to balance things(not staking duos not staking classes and not staking high mmr in one team)… s1 complains of pros that they had to carry a lot lead to this, enjoy it former legends in other seasons, this system fault is yours for the continuos complains in the s1 system more based on pip ranges than mmr

Olterin Fire.5960:

To those of you saying all the statistical evaluation being easy to address … You do realize that we’re still talking about a computer evaluation, yes? If you are so sure these issues are easy to address, please, educate us (and Arenanet) by providing details of how to do it. Because all I have seen so far is “it should do this and this” but not the details of how it can be accomplished – nor the reasoning why those particular things would be the ones used.

What I’m talking about is – how do you weigh individual contribution based on match statistics? Which ones should be used? Should they be universal or class-dependent? If they are class-dependent, shouldn’t they instead be role-dependent? If they should, how do you automatically determine the role someone is playing without human interference?

Most importantly, can you also outline how such a proposed change would impact the system on a global scale? I mean, sure, I have seen examples of individual changes, but did anyone think of the larger implications? Until all of this has been adequately addressed, I have no reason to believe the current system is inherently bad.

Sure, I would like to not get dragged down during individual matches by having “bad luck” with the team, but as has been said time and time again… Bad luck averages out over a large sample size of games. So does good luck. The matchmaker has no preference for individual accounts to be put on “good teams”, thus, even though you only control roughly 10% of what goes into a match, assuming the other 90% average out to a 50/50 win/loss over time, it’s your 10% that will decide whether you rise or fall in rating. Of course, it might take more than 50 or even 200 games, but if you’re serious about PvP you’re likely to play more than that. In which case there is no issue here.

The one and only change I would like to see to the system as it stands right now, would be for decay to occur towards the average rating instead of towards 0. I mean, the soft MMR reset puts everyone’s rating closer to the average, not towards zero, so it only makes sense that by being inactive the skill is assumed to drift towards that same point.

decay to average… great, bronze decay to silver great idea

for the other things on post, yes, evaluate player contribution on teams is pure mess, class dependant , role dependantm, situation dependant so much variables to cool machine analisis and player voting pure joke , better firts adress mm algorithm to a proper one and the other will be only short lucky or bad luck strikes and pure great numbers law

morrolan.9608:

megilandil.7506:

@shaogin
the mm sistem it apears to be like:
1
pick 5 random players of aprox same mmr (create a team)
repeat repeat repeat
pick 2 random teams with aprox the same average mmr
release a match

Not
2
take 10 random players of same aprox mmr
split in two teams
release a match

this is the most logical explanation to stackings of highers mmr and classes cuz with method two they can split class and high mmr to balance a little teams

This is what happened in S2 and S3 and I thought it was changed. If this season is being matched in this way its crap and just leads to poor results.

in s2 and s3 they introduced mmr to calculations s1 was only (or mostly) pip based but the system is that, first years this proces is transparent to user, you suscribed to q and you see how you rteam are filled (you see the names of companions in a list)and after system searched a oponent team

cranos.5913:

megilandil.7506:

cranos.5913:

Gwaihir.1745:

Pre-hot adverts also said that they would gain much needed movement speed and mobility. Instead they got a rooted true shot and rooted lb 5, and the only class without 25% movement speed. And no new sources of swiftness.

We got wings man. Crazy mobility. :>

In all fairness I kind of expected a 25% movement speed trait. Doesn’t seem like that’s going to happen any time soon. I guess they really just meant the 1 extra leap.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Either way, If the leaks are anything to go by, guardians will be getting a condition cancer elite spec by the next expansion. Not that I’m excited at all for that.

How so? Afaik the leak in question only called the new spec “purifier” and said we would get an axe. Purifier kind of sounds like the opposite of condi cancer. (I’d be pro getting an axe tho)

purify by fire ;-)

I would hope that if we do get a condi elite spec it consists of more than just burning tho.

i will hope redesigning of all condi builds to be more like guardian, one max two condis with max presure in it than the actual high spamming of different low condis that have other clases. that will give a more balanced condi play

cranos.5913:

Gwaihir.1745:

Pre-hot adverts also said that they would gain much needed movement speed and mobility. Instead they got a rooted true shot and rooted lb 5, and the only class without 25% movement speed. And no new sources of swiftness.

We got wings man. Crazy mobility. :>

In all fairness I kind of expected a 25% movement speed trait. Doesn’t seem like that’s going to happen any time soon. I guess they really just meant the 1 extra leap.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Either way, If the leaks are anything to go by, guardians will be getting a condition cancer elite spec by the next expansion. Not that I’m excited at all for that.

How so? Afaik the leak in question only called the new spec “purifier” and said we would get an axe. Purifier kind of sounds like the opposite of condi cancer. (I’d be pro getting an axe tho)

purify by fire ;-)

hackks.3687:

Pakkazull.6894:

hackks.3687:

Now if you think ANet can’t apply some criteria to include individual contribution then I kindly invite you to take your ignorant kitten elsewhere, because these systems already exist. Go play any other competitive game and you’ll find out pretty quick just how ANet’s system is deficient.

Please, enlighten me, because I barely know of any game that uses any other criteria than wins and losses. And yes, CS:GO has an MVP system, but it’s also easier to implement in CS:GO since the only real metrics it uses are kills/assists and plants/defuses (and even that system isn’t entirely accurate. You’ll get MVP for planting the bomb even if someone else carried hard and killed 4 guys solo to get you to the bomb site).

hackks.3687:

It’s simple: Everyone places into bronze. Period. Now everyone has to play to climb. Not just those of us who didn’t get the fortune of great placement teams.

Well, that’s the silliest suggestion I’ve seen in this thread so far. You’d basically condemn everyone to two months of awful matches out of spite, because you feel you’ve been wronged by “the system”.

What exactly are you advocating for? You want a system that protects you from having to play kittenty matches, but not everyone else?

And you’re reason for not doing anything apparently is because it’s hard and not as easy as copy/paste? We don’t have metrics for our game? Reliable stats that point to winning behavior? Kills/Deaths/Revives/Caps/Decaps/Defense? Just because ANet isn’t using them correctly doesn’t mean that can’t change.

What is this point of this post? Have you ever made anything????

caps——> doublecaping
kills—→ teamfigters get more deads than roamers
defenses——>the same
deaths—→a holder dead more often when outnumbered but let the other players to be numerical superior on map
revives——> teamfighters get more and not all the classes revive whith the same easines
caps/decaps——→roamers get more than teamfighters
these stats are highly dependant on role on match not on playing good

other implementation that can work for preventing to much blowouts in the first days/weeks, when players are misplaced, is making supositions and little or not so little adjustemments in the mmr number used in mm calculations, a player on a winstreak supose that has a higher mmr than the actual one, a player in a lose streak supose lower and a player stabilized in a near 50% w/l the actual that can prevent the actual high volatility in first weeks where you get misplaced players that are falling ranks or climbing fast and have a big impact in the outcome of your match even it is fair in numbers

Cynz.9437:

Lol it is even worse at higher ratings since half of 250 are alt accounts/season afkers so MM can’t find equal teams so you have 4 top 10 players on one team and full team of 1700-1800 on other.

What needs to happen:
1. players shouldn’t be placed higher than 1700
2. you need to play at least 100 matches to qualify for top 250
3. rating gains/loses should depend on how close the match was. It will give motivation for players to actually try. Losing 20 ranks for 499-500 match is extremely discouraging.

3 its a big system problem, a close match is a fair match and the one that works for calculating properly the “skill” of players a blowout is a system failure and counting it for calculations is unfair, something go “wrong” with the calculations of mm and losing team is in an unwinnable match, the only form to adress this is separating the rank from mmr and this is another version of the old pip system, blow ot lose small amount of mmr lose big rank, close encounter lose correct mmr lose small rank, or directly change the complete system, to a true league ofseason are clasificatorys and seasons players fighting to be the best of their (being randomly matched whith any player of your tier r puted in the lowest tier)league whithout league climbings (but that have the problem of trolling alts of “pros” being champions on all tiers)

Sykper.6583:

megilandil.7506:

Entenkommando.5208:

A different question: in what way do you believe a leaderboard for solo to be representative if you still have to rely on 4 other teammates in your matches?
Overall the leaderboards are just artificial, there is no #1 player due to all the different roles and professions you can take in this game. There will never be fairness in Solo nor duo.
The only way to get a representative leaderboard is to have a 5v5 que. But until that point it’s really nice to be able to find players, form a duo with them and start to teach yourself the basics of teamplay until you go for 5v5.

the think is that you are the only constant in your solo matches, if mm works fine coff coff you get the same amount of players better than you and worse than you, and the same for rival teams and in large numbers the sistem can get an idea of your “skill”
this if system works fine, and devs dont mess with them every 3 month to adjust their last missadjusment etc etc

You skipped over the part where ‘professions and roles’ mess with a pure solo queue setup. Matchmaking cannot account for what players excel at and give them ‘balanced’ team comps. We even see this now, and it is an outstanding factor that will make solo-queue only leaderboards a pip-dream.

an you skiped the ironic of mm working fine
a part of mm working fine if have solid roles, they(anet) said no but HoT bring it, a proper mm reserve slots for them and fill these spaces with players of that role in both teams , other issue is the performance of player in a class, that can be calculated so, giving diferent rating for class, if i have x mmr and i take the desision of playing a class never played i dont have to count as a player of x skill, my skill now is much lower

the mmr had to be some sort of your basic skill(pvp mechanics knowledge)+your class skill