Their new builds are usually at midnight, so if it hasn’t happened yet, it might be when Mists of Pandaria releases.
That’d be kind of funny.
I agree that the Stability Buff on Boss monsters is silly.
I’m sure somewhere out there is a group that is timing their CCs and whittling down the Buff until the one CC they wanted to land actually lands, but for the rest of us peons, we just don’t think about it. If I toss out a CC and it sticks, awesome. If it doesn’t, I didn’t expect it to anyway.
I agree with #2. The Stability Buff should work the other way around. It should wear off, but be gained upon CC. This would encourage people to CC when they see that its down, instead of making CC’ing bosses feeling somewhat random.
When I first did AC, my friends and I realized, “o hey. dungeons are hard.” I felt like that was what Arena Net was trying to get at. It was a nice change.
And then we did CM Story. It was a cakewalk. At this point, we were thinking, “Okay. That was weird. Maybe it’s just a fluke.”
And then we did the other dungeons. Some bosses were disgustingly difficult, and, then, the boss after would be a joke. Some pulls were ridiculous, like four hound pulls in Twilight Arbor or pulls with Knights or Wardens, and then the boss right after would be stupid easy.
After completing most of the dungeons on Story and Explorable, the conclusion I’ve come to is that Arena Net can’t balance and does not test their content.
-OR- none of their testers could beat the first or second boss of a dungeon, so they couldn’t balance the rest. Because after that crazy first or second boss, some dungeons were a breeze.
…except Heart of the Waves. The last boss was insane. Birds OP.
Yeah. In one of my Twilight Arbor groups, a thief told everyone where they could stand on the Greater Nightmare Vine boss so that they wouldn’t get hit.
I was the only melee, so I couldn’t really go in alone without having all the vines instantly target me and AoE me to death. So… I just stood there for 3-4 minutes while they killed the boss. I thanked them for the party and left. All I could think was, “Sigh. I hope this doesn’t become a trend.”
Fortunately, from then on, only a few people knew of the spot and they didn’t tell the others in my groups, so I could kill the boss normally.
As for leashing, I feel like if they try to fix it, they will break dungeons even more. I am utterly terrified of Arena Net’s patches now. Mortified. Stupefied. Petrified. By them. This isn’t to say they shouldn’t try to fix things, but let’s get some small fixes under our belt before we tackle something huge like monster leashing.
I am not joking. Please don’t break it even more.
Or have the rewards scale to the difficulty, but that’s subjective and difficult to keep balanced.
Regarding the fanboy thing, it’s hard to please everyone. MMOs now have such a broad player-base that it’s next to impossible. Everyone has different wants and desires, time constraints, mentalities, etc.
I am fairly good at video games, but I completely empathize with my friend who tries her hardest to play and ends up saying—a lot, actually—“[…] because I suck at this game,” or, “[…] because I suck at video games.”
Everyone has their own valid opinion, but, at the very least, be open to understanding where others are coming from. It’s the internet, so that person who wants things to be less grindy might just be a single mother or father of two with two jobs and not a lot of time.
Of course… that person also might be a complete brat, but it’s nicer to ignore that fact.
Haha. Yeah. Get it? Be understanding. On the INTERNET. Such a good joke. I’m so funny.
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Forward-Forward takes much more time than the other paths. It is the path you take when you want a challenge. I’m sure you could shorten it with an experienced group, but it’s generally not efficient.
Up-Up is the easiest. Forward-Up is the second easiest and hardly takes more time, if everyone in the group knows what they’re doing.
However, with the diminishing returns patch being broken, you might as well just farm Up-Up. Mixing it up with Forward-Up throws a cog in the rhythm of PUGs sometimes.
I am starting to see a trend in this thread. lol
I don’t mean to diminish anyone’s achievement, of course. I love dungeons, so I’ve run them a lot pre-diminishing returns patch. I’ve run them with plenty of PUGs and plenty of guild groups and plenty of groups with friends. I’ve run them with a variety of class combinations, but I can’t emphasize how much easier groups feel with a guardian.
I am not saying that guardians are mandatory. I’ve completed just as many dungeons without guardians as I have with them. However, guardians help with bonding groups together as a cohesive unit with their vast amount of AoE support abilities. Otherwise, you have the chicken with its head cut off feeling. While everyone in such groups knows their purpose, it is much more chaotic and, generally, slower.
They broke the trinity, so that we no longer need TANKS/HEALERS/DPS. Instead, we have the much better system of CONTROL/SUPPORT/DAMAGE.
That is literally what that interview told me. I get the distinction, but I just found it incredibly funny.
You have the guardian in the group composition again.
The utility guardians bring to a group is amazing. I know my Mesmer class inside and out, and while I was farming for my armor set, I learned which skills to swap in and out for each and every encounter.
I tried to make it as easy on PUGs as possible by controlling fights, but you could instantly FEEL when there was a guardian present.
Again, I’m not saying that it’s impossible for people to complete current content with whatever group. I’m simply stating that your experience might be more unique than you might think.
Also, I’m making a guardian for this reason.
I’ve done most of the dungeons and grinded out a non-CoF armor set, and I think dungeons need some work.
They aren’t balanced at this point. They are rough and seem thrown together without being tested. Compared to how well everything else is designed, i.e. the leveling system, WvW system, DE system, map completion, skill and trait system, the dungeons in Guild Wars 2 are extremely antiquated. Some might like this, as is clear with all those coming to the defense of these dungeons, but I still feel dungeons fall short in Guild Wars 2.
Of course, most of them are still buggy wrecks, so it’s hard to tell what the game developers truly intended. All I know is that there are improvements that can be made. Make a dungeon as challenging all you want—I love challenging content—but at least make it interesting.
And I’m sorry if Guild Wars 2 dungeons seems interesting and new to people, but I have experienced these types of dungeons in really bad Korean MMOs that I’ve played (and I’ve tried a lot!). These dungeons are not as well-thought out as you might think—I’m sorry to say.
To be fair, they had two guardians. While I’m not saying this to excuse the people who are unwilling to persevere, the OPs group composition isn’t normal.
I am not exactly positive, but I’m quite certain a group without any guardians would have a much different time.
I disagree with making tokens universal. The armor sets should remain unique to the dungeon.
It would be incredibly silly for someone to buy an armor set that represented mastery of a dungeon that they had never set foot in.
At the very least, tokens should be converted 2:1 if you want to buy an armor set of a dungeon you can’t farm. It’s an inelegant solution, but there should be something to encourage people to do the dungeon of the armor set they desire.
And I also believe that if tokens were universal, people would farm the easiest dungeon until they had enough to get whatever they wanted. So end game armor set farming, essentially, becomes farm pre-patch CoF Magg path speed runs 50-100 times (or whatever the flavor of the month speed run is).
They added a diminishing returns patch, which bugged out upon release.
And then they left it in for a week for some reason.
They’re fixing it today, though. Monday.
Yeah, the dungeons in Guild Wars 2 aren’t for the faint of heart. CM Story was the exception, but I believe they certainly fixed that.
They require a good amount of ability from each and every member to complete. For those who are frustrated with dungeons as they currently are, you can wait until Guild Wars 2 irons out the wrinkles. Dungeons, currently, are extremely unbalanced in the way of some areas and bosses are extremely easy and other areas are the extreme opposite. It makes them feel broken. I don’t know if they plan on doing anything, but they should. Challenging dungeons are great, but it feels like the difficulty slider is on a dart board.
Or people can wait until guilds do enough dungeons to waltz through them. As time progresses, people learn to cakewalk through these things.
You don’t need people to bring abilities that prevent knockdowns or stuns. You don’t need tanks either.
People just either have to be extremely good at timing their dodges and managing their energy. The less stability or defensive abilities you bring, the more you have to make up for it in dodging and pre-emptively avoiding attacks.
If you want to make your life easier, you bring such abilities. But you don’t have to. I’ve done plenty of story and explorable dungeons with PUGs.
As for my stance on stun-lock, I believe it isn’t fun. When you are permanently stunned by something alone, it feels stupid. However, in groups, I think it’s fine. One or two people might be stunned, but the others can wait to revive them if need be. The dungeons are “balanced”—I use that word lightly—around the fact that there are five of you. If everyone gets perma-stunned or insta-downed, that’s a problem. However, most of the time, that’s the group’s fault.
If you feel strongly against getting ripped off, I would wait until the fix Monday.
Right now, you can run dungeons if you love them so much that you are satisfied with little to no monetary rewards or rewards in experience. But if you are motivated by greed like lesser mortals, you can join the club of waiting, like me.
The reward system is currently random or something.
Someone said they ran dungeons with a group of four people, and for the first run, they all got the same rewards. After that, the system became wonky and rewarded the same people differently, despite them having run the same amount.
Well, they should be fixing rewards this coming Monday, so there will, hopefully, be more players to run dungeons with.
I’m sure there are still people who LOVE doing dungeons for little to no reward at all for the content, but clearly, there are not enough to satisfy other people who are not as… purist? Is that the word that’s least offensive?
Now if you could get the same purists to run the dungeon 50+ times with people who are grinding dungeons for the armor set reward, I’m sure that would be useful to people currently.
The Diminishing Returns patch was bugged, so they did what was logical: Leave a broken system that punishes players for running dungeons at all with awful rewards in place for a week while they fix it.
I kid. I kid. No, but really. That’s what happened.
I think the high HP is to account for the giant range of damage people seem to be doing. I have no doubt that the upper echelon of powergamers can be found destroying encounters, whereas it would take others 4-5 minutes.
If we were to have a damage meter, I’m sure we would see how imbalanced the class damages are. I know that I shouldn’t compare simply damage alone, because other classes provide other benefits. However, I am just trying to explain that certain classes are more adept at blowing things up, and high HP is a lazy way of making content not easy breezy.
Aye. Guardians make dungeons easier due to their ability to give important boons like Aegis, which allows your party to block the next attack. It is especially helpful against knockdowns.
It means the other four members of your group spend less time having to time dodges and run away from knockdowns if their defensive cooldowns are not up and more time doing damage or controlling the fight in your favor.
As for damage, elementalists and warriors stand out. All professions do a respectable amount of damage, but, against large targets, elementalists and engineers do very good damage. Warriors do a lot of damage consistently.
However, pick a class you want. I am a Mesmer, and I have enjoyed dungeoning far more by simply exploring my class and fine-tuning my builds to encounters. All classes can be viable, if that’s your concern.
Though, some bosses are not affected by conditions and some actually heal off conditions, so you might not be the best for certain encounters. Except, if you are able to find a power, precision, crit damage build for your profession, you can take that anywhere.
The professions are really fun and interesting with their own playstyles. The leveling system is also diverse and provides a variety of things to do. The PvP is great.
The Guild Wars 2 dungeon system is pretty antiquated. The LFG system is old and feels simply tacked on. The dungeons themselves are not that interesting. This is coming from someone who has completed most of them and farmed an armor set. The stories seem like they come after the dungeon is designed. Oh, if you go this path, you must stop this person. It is of the utmost importance that you stop this person! If you go this other path, it is extremely important that you stop this person! None of it is truly memorable in Explorable. In Story Mode, the drama between the main characters of the Guild Wars 2 story keeps you from falling asleep, but their reasons for being in the dungeons don’t leave lasting impressions.
As for the dungeon designs, the layouts are interesting. I would like to commend the people who designed the maps. The Explorable paths, however, leave much to be desired. The dungeons end up being kill a group of trash monsters, kill boss. Kill a group of trash monsters, and, then, kill the boss. It feels uninspired.
I don’t exactly know what I want, but I know that, of all the MMOs that I’ve played, Guild Wars 2 dungeons do not stand out very much. Do not read this and become defensive of Guild Wars 2, because I do love Guild Wars 2. I’m just saying that the dungeons are the weakest part of it, in my opinion.
There are still those roles in Guild Wars 2. When I read the interview, it sounded adorably pretentious.
In Guild Wars 2, we don’t have TANKS. We have CONTROL.
In Guild Wars 2, we don’t have HEALS. We have SUPPORT.
In Guild Wars 2, we don’t have DPS. We have DAMAGE.
It was kind of funny. Anyway, people fulfill roles, whether they know it or not. As a Mesmer, I fulfill the role of Control and Support sometimes and Damage others. I understand why people shy away from things that other MMOs have, because they want to believe their MMO is DIFFERENT. But, no, people still have purposes in groups. That has not changed.
So, after a couple of a weeks following release, a broken diminishing returns system is placed into the game and is left in the game for a week while you fix it.
I’m sorry, but that’s awful. I understand that this is a persistent and constantly evolving world, so you feel like you have time to tinker with things and get them right. But.. you’re essentially shooting yourself in the foot at the starting gate.
This is about the time a lot of casual players hit 80, and they have a broken dungeon diminishing returns system to play with. Even you see that these rewards are not where you want them to be and players are not adequately rewarded for their time.
The patch should have been tested. It should have been implemented working even roughly as you said it would. As soon as you discovered it was broken and gave players absolutely dismal rewards for their hard work and effort, you should have removed it until you could re-implement it so that it doesn’t feel like you’re punishing your entire player-base.
I am very disappointed in this decision to simply leave a broken system in the game knowingly and repair it at a later date. I understood the Trading Post situation, but this is of your own doing.
Test things, please. You’re only frustrating people.
Edit: I apologize if my posts are becoming more and more pointed. Realize that it’s because I really like Guild Wars 2 and would like it to do well so that my friends can enjoy playing it as well. Currently, of my group of friends, I am the only one to have continued playing (though, with this dungeon patch, I am taking a temporary leave for Borderlands 2). I support you.
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There is a big difference between what people want and what they need. It’s unfortunate that Arena Net made a lot of promises with things that people want. Closer to release date, however, these things are dropped due to being unfeasible.
Grind is subjective, and if you make it so everything is accessible quickly, everyone will burn through the content just as quickly and quit until the next content patch. It’s sadly necessary. Everyone is able to hit 80 in 1-2 weeks. They need something to do until you are able to crank out more content.
It’s just that the armor set grind that Guild Wars 2 has is enough of an uphill slope that many players aren’t willing to even bother.
I don’t know about wearing level 50 gear, but with each exotic Lv. 80 piece I got from Twilight Arbor, I became fairly sturdy.
I’ve even seen a guardian be able to cycle defensive abilities to keep a boss of Twilight Arbor that’s known to one shot everyone in one spot for 50% of its life.
It’s possible. It’s just not with only gear. You have to be good about dodging and using your abilities, and you have to know what abilities to cycle in and out.
Did they remove the diminishing returns system while trying to fix it?
All I have to say is, “Thank goodness Borderlands 2 and MoP are coming out,” because I love Guild Wars 2 and would hate to ruin my experience by playing through this mess.
Well, at least we know the diminishing returns system is just broken, and Arena Net is not out of touch. Also, while balancing for the economy and powergaming playerbase is necessary, please do not lose sight of the average player and their having fun. Diablo 3 did it, and even my friend who works at Blizzard and was going on and on about Diablo 3’s release doesn’t even talk about it anymore. It’s taboo to even talk about it.
It would be nice if dungeons were consistent, though.
Not having one boss take forever and then the next, and sometimes final, boss be pathetic in comparison. Bosses and encounters are definitely surmountable, but the way they are balanced makes dungeons feel less fluid than they could be.
Difficult dungeons are great, but one extremely difficult encounter and then a downhill slide from then on makes doing dungeons feel broken.
I would rather they reduce token costs, if anything.
The problem with combining all the tokens into one Dungeon Token is that the many armor sets will cease to mean anything. People will pick the easiest dungeon to farm and farm enough tokens to get the set from the hardest dungeon. So you’ll have people walking around in X set without having even set foot in the dungeon itself.
While it might seem silly to view these sets as mastery of their respective dungeons, if we don’t have something like that, fewer people would be inclined to do the harder dungeons. It would be standard for a fresh 80 to farm whatever easy dungeon is popular at the time until they receive enough tokens to get whatever set they want. It would make it more difficult for people to find groups for those other dungeons.
Imagine if all the tokens that people farmed in CoF could have been used on Arah or CoE or whatever other dungeon.
I think that instance would be even more frustrating if I could not Rally myself by killing the blossoms.
After getting the entire Nightmare set, I believe those blossoms to be a complete blessing in disguise.
The waypoint issue is very controversial. Waypoints that are too close end up being used to zerg bosses, and many find this to be bad game design, especially if it is necessary to beat a boss.
So ideally, things should be balanced so that you don’t have to zerg bosses. This can be done, but the developers are also walking a fine line. Balanced bosses can be construed as too easy by the more elite players. Those players will perceive it as ArenaNet giving in to casuals.
I agree that the path you just reviewed is actually the second easiest. If everyone knows what they’re doing, it is only slightly longer, if not shorter even, than the Up route.
Even longer still is the Forward + Forward path. I was in a group that could clear Up in 20 minutes and Forward + Up in about 20-30, but it took us 60-90 minutes to complete Forward + Forward.
If you want more of a challenge, do that one. It was fun though—the novelty of it. I wouldn’t use it to farm, though.
That goes against their intention of armor signifying achievement of a dungeon.
You know it.
15char.
Wait, am I going to get banned for 15char?
In addition, here is me including something relevant to the topic and completely necessary and not at all padding my post so that it meets the character limit to be posted.
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It’s great that you were able to do Arah with a group of friends for five hours today and have fun. It’s amazing that you were able to get 400 weaponsmithing and jewelcrafting as well as simply watch the market, and with your business instinct, make 200 gold. I am also thankful for the 21 years of service you’ve put into our Navy, and I am genuinely glad that you own your house outright and seem to be doing okay for yourself. While I don’t care as much that you bathe daily, I won’t deny it’s refreshing.
Oh, and if your friends also served, I am thankful for their efforts as well.
Unfortunately, I passed up leveling my crafting, because I had to budget my time. I could level crafting or level an alt or get the Nightmare set. The Nightmare set won out. It makes my Asura look like Queen Maleficent, and that is amazing. High-five Arena Net.
I’ve run the dungeon many times. I have 3 of the 4 that I want. I am choosing not to get the gloves and shoes, because they don’t really show. I don’t really want to do Twilight Arbor any more than I have to. I would rather level an alt!
Before, I was happy. I never ran Twilight Arbor more than a few times. I always had fun with the people I did it with. There were some groups that annoyed me, so I finished my run with them and bid them adieu. For the most part, however, I enjoyed my time in Twilight Arbor. I can run it quite efficiently as a Mesmer. I swap weapons and skills with every group of monsters. I go back and help people when they need it, like with the swarm of bees in the Forward-Up path. And at the end of the run, I am treated with 20 tokens in total towards my armor set, 26 silver, and 177,000 experience. Worth it.
And then came the patch. First run. Yeah! Rewards as usual. After that, pain of loss. I tried resetting the diminishing returns by doing another path but to no avail. I helped out a guild that was new to a path that I had not done today yet and was still affected by diminishing returns. I received 2 silver and 17k experience for an hour of going above and beyond. I was so awesome. I had fun too. They were nice enough people. But at the end of the challenging run, I got the same rewards I would get for doing an event outside for 1-2 minutes. That just doesn’t seem right.
The reward does not fit the amount of effort put in. Yes, I had a great deal of fun, but are we so short on money and experience that there needs to be a trade? Have fun with friends and family in a dungeon or make competitive money and experience elsewhere? I understand that you get items to sell, but you can also get items much faster elsewhere.
Now, you know that I don’t have a craft up to 400, and you know I don’t pay attention to the market. I essentially live off the money I make while helping others with their story mode or explorable dungeons and events. Do I have enough to be competitive with someone like you, who has 200g and is making more every day at a much higher rate? Probably not. And I’m not asking to make as much by doing dungeons.
However, I’m asking for enough so that I don’t have to choose between buckling down and making money so that I might be able to afford things in an ever inflating market and helping people and doing dungeons and having fun and shenanigans everywhere.
CoF needed to be fixed. I agree, but the changes they made had much more far-reaching effects than they had probably intended. They explained how they intended the diminishing returns system to work, and it is simply not working that way. People, as well as me, are voicing our concerns accordingly.
Does this sound unreasonable?
Also, friends make everything better. Even things I detest, like moving or repainting. And I did have fun today doing the dungeons for tokens to get my final Nightmare piece.
However, that doesn’t stop me from being able to look at the money and experience rewards at the end and think, “That is super low.”
Wiking, you don’t mind the changes, because they don’t really affect you.
As you’ve stated, you already have your gear from crafting. You aren’t running a dungeon 50+ times. It’s very easy to dismiss complaints as a tourist. I can do it with the WvW system. If there are large problems there, I can just say, “seems fine to me,” because I don’t have extensive experience in it.
Try to view it from the perspective of someone who has done an instance quite a few times over the course of a week, and they start getting 2 silver and 17k experience at the end of an hour dungeon.
You can get 2 silver and 17k from an event that takes 1-2 minutes. You can get just as much loot from that event. Do you see how people can feel a bit underwhelmed with the rewards of dungeons?
You don’t have to agree, but try to understand, at least.
1. I hang out with friends in Mumble and in guild chat, so dungeons are not the go-to to talk to and hang out with them.
2. I’ve done all the story missions with friends and pubs as well as explorables with friends and pubs. A sense of accomplishment comes after the first or second run. After that, I am in it for the tokens, money, and experience.
3. I think the outside in-game world is much more beautiful than the dungeon scenery. I like taking screenshots of things, and very rarely do I think, “Wow, I need to take a picture of that,” in a dungeon. There are exceptions, but I’ve taken far more outside dungeons.
4. As I’ve said in other topics, all the dungeons and story missions are worth seeing and doing once. Arena Net has done an amazing job. Some dungeons are extremely bugged, but there’s no helping that except by waiting.
After the first experience and the novelty has worn off, I am looking for tokens, money, and experience. Tokens are great. I love the cosmetic gear. I’m almost done getting the Nightmare set. However, without money and experience, I’m no longer happily skipping through dungeons to my armor set. I am drudging along.
5. I love difficulty. Whenever I’m in Mumble, I hear people talk about frustrating jumping puzzles or impossible dungeons or stupid fights. There’s always something. I run towards those things.
If I hear someone talk in Map chat about something they’re finding impossible, I go do it with them. I love challenges.
But after doing something 50+ times, it’s hardly challenging. I’m there for… you guessed it… tokens, money, and experience.
I’m not asking things to be handed to me, but 2 silver and 17k experience is a slap to the face after completing a possibly difficult dungeon. In fact, just today, I led a guild of fresh 80s through Twilight Arbor. They’d never the explorable before. The run took much longer than normal. We wiped several times. I had patience and talked them through encounters. We killed everything, because they didn’t know where to run. And at the end of the run, which took about an hour, I was treated to trivial rewards. I hadn’t done that path today yet, either.
How the diminishing returns was explained was that if you ran different paths, you might never even experience them. That was not the case.
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Only five hours a day necessary.
If anything, some story modes are harder than explorables. I do agree there.
They’re definitely doable, but they do seem to be very poorly balanced. For example, some bosses are extremely difficult to beat and then the rest of the instance is cake. Some groups of monsters take several tries doing, and then the boss is tank and spank, so to speak.
Don’t listen to Borked. We’ve all been there. Don’t worry. Explorables are, interestingly enough, much more fun and less head-scratching to do. I say head-scratching, because that’s essentially what you do when you run into many odd spikes and dives in difficulty.
No, I meant condescending to the developers.
It’s as if you’re treating them like children that need to be scolded. And a lot of posts about the dungeons and reward system have been constructive. They can take from that.
They don’t need a teacher sitting them down and asking, “And what did we learn?” It’s insulting.
This seems condescending.
The person who said that ArenaNet wants you to farm an armor set over the course of 3 months reminded me of another game that tried to do that.
Final Fantasy XIV tried to tell people how much they should play and how often they should play by having penalties to experience the more you played without taking a break called “Bonus EXP.” You’d eventually stop getting EXP and start racking up the mysterious “Bonus EXP” instead.
That went well for them.
I’m not saying this will end up like FFXIV. I just thought it was amusing.
In that system, you could essentially play the market for your gear, and I think there’s already the regular exotic armor sets for that.
They want the armor sets of a dungeon to signify your achievement of running that dungeon. I think they’d be against a dungeon token market.
Most people are talking about the rewards.
Why are you complaining about complainers? Had you made this post in a constructive manner, it would have been highly informative for people. Instead, you just sound silly.
I am a very reasonable person who is always ready to defend games and their design decisions, and I agree with this message.
I think they made the changes with good intentions.
This was probably to balance out CoF runs and the large amounts of gold that was flooding the market and inflating costs. So they probably wanted to fix it so that there wasn’t such a gap between poor low level people that are just starting out or just hitting 80 and rich high level people that farmed CoF incessantly.
Unfortunately, they did not account for the fun. It’s happening to a lot of developers. How to balance for everyone and yet retain the fun.
I still like the dungeons and the combat.
I’m just not doing it, because 2 silver and 17k exp is stupid.