Guild Wars 2

Northern Shiverpeaks I rarely have any of that issue. Maybe you should join a guild too, preferably a helpful and friendly one.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It probably came out the wrong way, but there is a part of me that wants the rare item to be rare. That’s the main reason why I invested so much time PvEing from pre-launch. I wanted an item that was hard to get, thus was unique, thus has some status to holding it. I wasn’t smart enough to flip on the TP early, and didn’t get lucky finding exploits. I farmed Orr for Karma trains (before I started WvWing), did the JP that gives T6 mats on a daily basis, and yes I farmed Sparks for hours at a time.

The item is unique due to it’s looks and effects, not it’s rarity. Given what anet has said about these, they were designed to take time and look epic. The special snowflake mentality is purely a subjective issue. The first person to don a full set of CoF armor shouldn’t feel cheated that it’s much easier to get it right now then when they got it, it’s the same armor either way.

Since the pre’s are based entirely on luck, the mat prices really don’t make much difference. Even if the cost of rares and their mats go up, how many rares does it take to get one? I don’t think the prices even reflect that at all. I think theres a limit to what people will pay, but it’s hardly based on what the costs of mats are (or rares). You really don’t see a huge flux in prices based on anything other than drop rate changes. Looking over the data, it’s extremely clear that post Karka chest, the prices plummeted, that would be the indicator of enough fluctuation for a clearer picture than the cost of mats.

i7 3820 @ 3.6ghz 6950 flex 16 GB RAM 240GB SSD. I’ve actually noticed a frame rate drop since the last update, not really sure the optimization pass they did helped me at all.

Mourningcry.9428:

munkiman.3068:

First i was using 10 gems as an example, nothing in the store comes at that price. Second, the system is already heavily weighted in favor of paying cash for gems, so much so in fact that converting the excess gems to gold even makes sense. If players have that kind of time to spend on playing and earning enough gold (mostly the unemployed or people in school) you won’t be getting their money anyway, since they don’t have any to spend.

First, it’s exactly what I called it as. Instead of offering a useful, rational example, some posters would rather just throw out random garbage, rathen then put in the least amount of effort to offer up something meaningful.

It really doesn’t matter what an item costs in the gem shop when some people simply don’t have an extra 10 or 20 bucks to toss at virtual item purchases. Any example will do in those cases. Some people in turn simply refuse to spend cash also, whatever numbers are used there can be tossed out as well, Anet could never cater to those folks. We can toss around gut instinct numbers all day, for the sake of this particular argument, i really don’t think it’s as relevant. What’s a fair amount then? Who knows?

Mourningcry.9428:

Second, the steadily rising gem -> gold exchange would lead one to belive there are plenty of players out there with more then enough gold to convert to gems to make gemstore purchases (perhaps as an investment tool as a secondary reason). And it rises like clockwork each time new store items are made available. And further, you can’t just dismiss that they won’t without mentioning price. After all, price is going to be a major factor in how players pay for those gems items.

There’s more gold in the economy, so the exchange is going to rise as more gold gets generated, this says very little about individual wealth. The stabilizing factor is those wiling to convert gems to gold. But, given the rising trends that plateau, we can see something about how much wealth is in the economy overall, people are simply out buying the rate in which people are selling the gems back to the pool. Since that’s more the case as the conversions climb, we could almost assume that anet isn’t making as much money as there are people willing to trade in their game gold for goodies. How much they are spending on things with fake money is pretty much irrelevant they are simply taking more out of the pool faster than is being put back in, further swaying in favor of those that are willing to spend cash. My point was as this trend continues, it makes even more sense to players with disposable income to pay with cash, that was really my only point. Where is the breaking point? No idea… Since they do have sales in the store, one might assume we’ve actually reached a point where they need to decide what numbers need to be adjusted.

munkiman.3068:

Mourningcry.9428:

You’re also quoting a call that said an expansion to be released sometime this year, when anet recently said there wasn’t one in the works. I take what those investment calls say with a grain of salt.

As well you should. But then who’s answer to your questions would you not dismiss?

Well since we won’t be getting those numbers from Anet, we could look at the earnings reports and make guesses, but since they seemed to be lumped with sales of the box, it might be tough to sort out. Both have different reason to deceive or distort things.

Mourningcry.9428:

munkiman.3068:

I think those are far more important points than what a fair price is, obviously selling a skin for 10000 gems isn’t going to sell well, but how about selling 1000 @ 10 gems? It certain doesn’t cost the company anymore money to manufacture more of the same item.

This is representative of the “off the cuff”, thinkingI’m talking about. Why would anyone pay cash for 10gems (or any small value) instead of exchanging gold for gems, resulting in zero revenue. It doesn’t have a cost associated it with it, but it certain has revenue implications. How is price not a consideration?

munkiman.3068:

But the bigger questions to this point to me is for how long? How long can you “take advantage” of tremendous sales and not look like your just being greedy? How long before the majority of your player base refuses to spend once cent on your store items or up and quits altogether because you continue to do these things? Further more, how many more threads speaking out about this practice is it going to take?

You want the official answer? Looks like strong and consistent going forward (my formating)

---

Taken from the NCsoft Q1 2013 Earnings Call
Represting NCsoft were:
Jae-Sung Lee, the Head of IR
Hong Cha Na, the Head of Finance and Accounting Group

<snip for space>

First i was using 10 gems as an example, nothing in the store comes at that price. Second, the system is already heavily weighted in favor of paying cash for gems, so much so in fact that converting the excess gems to gold even makes sense. If players have that kind of time to spend on playing and earning enough gold (mostly the unemployed or people in school) you won’t be getting their money anyway, since they don’t have any to spend.

You’re also quoting a call that said an expansion to be released sometime this year, when anet recently said there wasn’t one in the works. I take what those investment calls say with a grain of salt.

dinominator.9862:

Facepunch.5710:

I’m getting all the game content I want from launch and updates and I have no interest in these mini pets and limited time weapon skins.

^ This.

This discussion isn’t about the initial value of the purchase price, i can think of plenty of games that people put thousands of hours into that have the same initial price (Battlefield, Black Ops, The Sims, SimCity, etc.). This is about what is perceived as a shady practice to keep the money rolling in. It’s about how you can’t even value most of these items since your only buying a chance to get them. It’s always been about those things, not about whether you got your money out of the purchase price or not. I’m satisfied with what i’ve put into the game so far (aside from the 200 i dropped for a fused weapon, my fault i know, but i really didn’t expect it to take that much), but i’m not happy with these practices, I also don’t just want to speak with my wallet.

tolunart.2095:

munkiman.3068:

But the bigger questions to this point to me is for how long? How long can you “take advantage” of tremendous sales and not look like your just being greedy? How long before the majority of your player base refuses to spend once cent on your store items or up and quits altogether because you continue to do these things? Further more, how many more threads speaking out about this practice is it going to take?

I think those are far more important points than what a fair price is, obviously selling a skin for 10000 gems isn’t going to sell well, but how about selling 1000 @ 10 gems? It certain doesn’t cost the company anymore money to manufacture more of the same item.

How long has the Powerball lottery been running? How long has Las Vegas had casinos?

An individual can wake up one day and realize he has a gambling problem. Hopefully he will do what he needs to do in order to stop gambling. But the rest of the people aren’t going to change their behavior because he does.

Or more importantly, how long have other games engaged in this kind of practice? SWTOR went F2P around the same time GW2 was released, and so far as I know it still has RNG boxes, not just with skins, but with vehicles and gear that are as good or better than equipment you find in the game. It’s a little different because they are tradeable, but highly sought after and expensive because they are exclusive to the RNG boxes.

I don’t know about other games. But I don’t expect to see any game taking them away in the near future.

I still have a very hard time comparing real life experiences, with getting a visually nice skin that’s tied directly to making more money than selling them outright. I can quit a video game experience quite easily, real life experiences however, not so much. I know i personally expected more from ANet, than i do from bioware or many of these other companies. That certainly isn’t a good thing on my part, but it will also cause me to lose interest in supporting them in the future. So i ask, why risk it? Why risk a future relationship with paying customers over a get rich quick scheme? It’s almost like your best friend scamming you out of money, not caring at all about the future of your relationship. This especially since i prolly would’ve help him/her out anyway.

tolunart.2095:

munkiman.3068:

Mourningcry.9428:

Fine. How’s this? A lot of alternatives center around the idea of outright, fixed price sales of items. And some even want to increase the number of these items. Great.

Question. What’s the price and why?

Ya, seems like a great idea until you start getting into the details. Pricing methodology is not trival. Do you think it’s arbitrary that the new loot boxes are priced @ 150 gems, and that a bundle of them is also avaialble for 1200gems?

Do any of these kind of alternatives people list even bother to offer an explanation of how they’d go about pricing the items? Nope.

Quite frankly, one might argue that that may be a “waste of time”.

Well, I don’t think that pricing the items is a big issue, right now (taking the fused tickets as an example) there isn’t a set price. it could literally be well over 100 bucks. So, the options about what pricing is fair is up in the air. I see what you’re saying though, i’m really unsure how to go about it though, given we only have a very basic rough guesstimate.

I think that’s what he’s asking for. In another thread Mourningcry posted:

Just some quick, very basic, off the cuff calcs to kind of paint the picture of what some of you are asking for.
What’s the value of one of these weapon skins? Let’s say there are 1million players. Of those, some (like so many here) won’t buy gems (they’ll convert gold, or abstain), and there are others that simply don’t want them. So, let’s say, half of those players are willing to make a single, one time purchase.

500,000 * $10 = $5,000,000 = 400,000,000 gems

At 125gems/key, they get 6 tries.

500,000 * 6 = 3,000,000 tries

Let’s be generous and set the drop rate for a skin @ 1%

3,000,000 * 1% = 30,000 weapons skins dropped

400,000,000 / 30,000 = 13,333 gems is the value of 1 skin

I would even go so far as to say these are very generous assumptions (only one gem purchase per player and a 1% drop rate) Feel free to tweak it as you like, but you’ll get the idea.
———————————————

This is a very rough (and probably not very accurate) estimation, but compare the value in thousands of gems to the skins currently available in the gem shop (Rox’s bow and quiver, Braham’s mace and shield) at 600 gems and you’ll see the gap between direct sale and RNG sales. How do you find a compromise between these values? Do you think people would pay 10,000 gems for a single skin? 1,000? At what point will additional sales make up for the loss of sales to the people who spend $1000+ trying to get a single skin?

Any financial analyst hired by Anet is going to take about ten seconds to realize that there is a LOT more money to be made in RNG boxes than through selling the same items directly. Arguments about morality and greed are irrelevant, the analyst’s job is to show them how to make more money, not how to be a better person. To have any chance of making a change, you need to demonstrate that there is the potential to make more money without relying on the RNG boxes.

But the bigger questions to this point to me is for how long? How long can you “take advantage” of tremendous sales and not look like your just being greedy? How long before the majority of your player base refuses to spend once cent on your store items or up and quits altogether because you continue to do these things? Further more, how many more threads speaking out about this practice is it going to take?

I think those are far more important points than what a fair price is, obviously selling a skin for 10000 gems isn’t going to sell well, but how about selling 1000 @ 10 gems? It certain doesn’t cost the company anymore money to manufacture more of the same item.

Mystic.5934:

So he’s talking about all the 1c buy orders for everything? I’m not so sure: “People that put in an order and price it one copper over the store price”.
Anyways, if he is: those are from before an update that made the minimum price of all items 1c above it’s merchant price. Anet just doesn’t think it necessary to remove those from the TP, even though they can never be filled.

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

Lol! Mystic that is brilliant O.o

I shall one day be hailed as either a genius or a fool!
I did the same with each of the rare back pieces (in case they one day made them salvageable for ecto). (I store what my alts and guilds can’t hold on the TP) strangely, the soldier spineguards are currently worth far above what I could of hoped, and I have no idea why. I made about 40g off those alone, which paid off the cost of buying all the others

I did the same thing

JustTrogdor.7892:

munkiman.3068:

This is the sort of defense of this practice i see a lot on here. It’s not about having to have the items, it’s about wanting to have them. Comparing real life luxury items, with in game items is really a bit silly, don’t you think?

All of these in game items are still a real world purchase. You are purchasing digital content which is a real product. Also many have agreed that this digital content is a ‘luxury’ item. If it was needed to play the game then that is a different story.

Have you ever played a free game on a tablet app, phone, facebook? Almost of those games function on the same principal. You can play for free all you want but if you want the fancy building or what ever you have to pay for it. It’s often done in a similar fashion where the player buys coins. Many of these games are even more limited, only giving you so much land to build on for example unless you buy coins.

As many and myself have said many times over, the best way to cast your vote against it is to not open your wallet. This thread among many will probably have little or no affect. The only thing I agree with regarding the RNG chest is that they should present the actual odds to the buyer.

I can use a pretty popular example of what i’m talking about. In the case of Mass Effect 3 and EA selling relevant content as DLC was a really bad move (except you didn’t buy a chance at this content, which is way worse IMO). So much so that the outrage caused an entire change in the structure of how they treat DLC in the future. People got fired, heads rolled (so to speak), simply since they were seen as a greedy money grubbing corp. Speaking out on this practice should really hit home for ANet and i’m going to assume these crates were already a thing, but i can tell you for sure i won’t be buying them, ever, and i spent a nice chuck of cash on a fused ticket. Here’s hoping this goes away.

Mourningcry.9428:

Fine. How’s this? A lot of alternatives center around the idea of outright, fixed price sales of items. And some even want to increase the number of these items. Great.

Question. What’s the price and why?

Ya, seems like a great idea until you start getting into the details. Pricing methodology is not trival. Do you think it’s arbitrary that the new loot boxes are priced @ 150 gems, and that a bundle of them is also avaialble for 1200gems?

Do any of these kind of alternatives people list even bother to offer an explanation of how they’d go about pricing the items? Nope.

Quite frankly, one might argue that that may be a “waste of time”.

Well, I don’t think that pricing the items is a big issue, right now (taking the fused tickets as an example) there isn’t a set price. it could literally be well over 100 bucks. So, the options about what pricing is fair is up in the air. I see what you’re saying though, i’m really unsure how to go about it though, given we only have a very basic rough guesstimate.

darkace.8925:

munkiman.3068:

This is the sort of defense of this practice i see a lot on here. It’s not about having to have the items, it’s about wanting to have them. Comparing real life luxury items, with in game items is really a bit silly, don’t you think?

No, I don’t. I see no difference at all in the purchase of real life luxury item and a virtual luxury item. And cosmetic skins are just that, luxury items. I don’t like the rng system any more than you do, but let’s not pretend these cosmetic skins are required to enjoy the game.

Part of the enjoyment of a game is getting the nice shiny new stuff (obviously the items themselves are subjective), comparing working to earn a real world item and enjoying a video game and it’s content are kinda vastly different things. I certainly don’t play a video game to work, quite the opposite actually. Sure i like my job and all (i can even post on forums if i want), but it’s certainly not entertainment most of the time.

JustTrogdor.7892:

But you don’t have to have those items to play. I don’t need to have a $500 watch to be able to tell time. I can buy a $60 watch and use it as long as it still functions. If I see it is available for a limited time I have a few choices. Work more to get it, spend expendable income I already have, or simply decide it isn’t worth the money and or time.

If this were a subscription based game you would have to pay to keep playing. You would have to decide is it worth the money? You would not have a choice aside from paying the monthly fee or trying to log in and finding an error message that your subscription has ended.

This is the sort of defense of this practice i see a lot on here. It’s not about having to have the items, it’s about wanting to have them. Comparing real life luxury items, with in game items is really a bit silly, don’t you think?

The Sims is an extremely popular game because it gives players stuff for just playing, lots and lots of stuff. People continue buying these content packs to support more new stuff, and on and on. So they are actually getting this stuff at what they feel is an incredible value since they enjoy the content. That’s kinda the point, you don’t need to get this stuff, you can simply buy the base game and play it, never purchasing any of the new stuff. That’s just not the case here, not with these RNG items, paying for a chance at a new item is and will always be a crappy practice in my eyes. Sell me the content or don’t offer it. Playing is always optional, negating anything after as a required processes.

Facepunch.5710:

munkiman.3068:

Everything after the initial purchase of the game is not free, not buy any stretch of the imagination. Earning that kind of gold to buy limited one time items is putting a time limit on how much gold you can earn before the items go away. In almost every case, you simply cannot earn enough gold to keep up with these special offers, it’s physically impossible. There will be plenty of people boasting that they can earn 100g a week, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not happening on any grand scale, if it were the economy would look entirely different.

I don’t think Trogdor was suggesting that all gem shop items are free, maybe he was, but I interpreted his comment as being directed toward content updates, which are 100% free. Even if I’m wrong, the option to buy items with real money does not in any way translate to ‘you must spend money on this game.’ So yes, everything in the game is free, and new free things are being added, at no cost to the players. The cash shop is not free, of course it’s not. Are you suggesting that the cash shop items should be free in a no-subscription game model with regular, free content updates?

In regard to earning enough gold to convert to gems and buy gem store items, I read your argument as assuming that a players waits until a gem store update occurs, then grinds like crazy to get enough gold to convert to gems and buy the item before it’s removed. In actuality, if you play the game you should be making gold fairly often and will be sitting on quite a pile of it when a gem store item you like comes out. Maybe you grind a little more to afford it, but I’ve never come across a situation you describe where it’s physically impossible to make enough gold in time to purchase an item I like.

As more players pitch in gold for gems the cost to “earn” these items continues to climb, keeping up with this inflated rate over time is what i’m talking about. You could easily blow your entire earnings on these RNG boxes and have very little to show for it. Down the road, when gold to gems hits a 4 or 5 to 100 ratio, you’d be even further behind. It’s a very straightforward system to keep these gem shop items out of reach for players only willing to use in game gold to purchase stuff, it’s really quite clever.

No it doesn’t “force players to spend money” but every time new content is provided in the gem shop, players will get to the point of not having a viable choice other than to spend money on those new shinies.

Mourningcry.9428:

darkace.8925:

Mourningcry.9428:

I’ve yet to see a single such proposition backed up with any type of financial analysis.

We’re not privy to ANet’s sales figures, so a financial analysis consisting of anything other than pure speculation is impossible. But alternatives have been suggested.

Please see my post above. I’m not asking for sales, revenue or growth projections. All I’m asking for is some analysis that at least shows some thought about the possible financial implications of some of these alternatives being suggested.

I was called out on this earlier, and replied.

Maybe reading previous posts, in the same thread, might be a good idea? But pretty much like those alternative posts, you’re too lazy, and just post away with out even thinking. No worries, I’m used to it.

I’m still wondering how a speculative analysis would be worth much. We could speculate many options and be so far off on the numbers that it wouldn’t even mean anything. It doesn’t seem lazy to not do it, it just seems like a waste of time.

JustTrogdor.7892:

I don’t get the argument that Anet is greedy. Technically everything after the initial purchase of the game is free. It depends on the value of these items the individual puts on them. You never have to spend real money on gems. Personally I think that is pretty fair considering there is no subscription. If players feel that this ‘greed’ is out of hand they can vote against it by keeping your wallet closed.

I’d actually prefer a monthly subscription with some of these items dropping a bit more in game. But wait! That isn’t fair to the person that has less time to play because others play more and can get these items faster.

Everything after the initial purchase of the game is not free, not buy any stretch of the imagination. Earning that kind of gold to buy limited one time items is putting a time limit on how much gold you can earn before the items go away. In almost every case, you simply cannot earn enough gold to keep up with these special offers, it’s physically impossible. There will be plenty of people boasting that they can earn 100g a week, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not happening on any grand scale, if it were the economy would look entirely different.

On the greed statement, yes it can very well be viewed as a greedy practice since there are plenty of other ways to offer this stuff. Their goal has always been to make things accessible for all players, that’s not what we are seeing here. Limited time items demand cash payments by most of the games player base, even worse, getting hooked into the amount of gold it would take just to RNG to the item you wanted, would blow most peoples earnings since release.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Do people get all bothered about card packs? That’s what RNG boxes are. RNG boxes are not slot machines, Texas-hold-‘em tables, lotteries or raffles. They’re kittening baseball/M:tG cards.

If you don’t like RNG boxes (as I don’t), then don’t buy them (as I won’t). Posts like these will not change the minds of the monetization crew at ANet. More importantly, it won’t change the minds of the people buying the RNG boxes — and they’re why these things keep showing up.

And as far as people who oppose certain positions, you’re over-analyzing. Many posters post in opposition for one simple reason. It’s ingrained in the human ego to want to think that we’re right, and nothing makes people feel more right than pointing out where others are wrong. This is nothing new, and the whole “Whatever happened to gamers looking out for gamers?” is remarkably disingenuous for suggesting that it was ever different. There are, of course, exceptions to everything, but as a general trend, no. Now, I’m not condoning the behavior, but the pseudo psycho-analysis is wrong.

Well there is a big difference between real world items and in game items. There’s simply no way to personally bind an item to you. The biggest complaint i have on the RNG boxes is just that.

Thank you so much for the responses!

Those requesting some further info can check out our guidelines and goals here:

http://beautifulpeoplesclub.org/index.php/groups/1-guild-wars-2-lipo/guild-guidelines-and-goals/

Thanks again!

How about a merger with http://beautifulpeoplesclub.org/index.php/groups/1-guild-wars-2-lipo/? We have a good amount unlocked but most of our 40 members play other games, so we are trying to build our active player base again. Food for thought. My goal would be get a lot of smallish guilds together and build on that. We’ve been around for over 10 years as a mature gaming group

How about a merger with http://beautifulpeoplesclub.org/index.php/groups/1-guild-wars-2-lipo/? We have a good amount unlocked but most of our 40 members play other games, so we are trying to build our active player base again. Food for thought.

How about a merger with http://beautifulpeoplesclub.org/index.php/groups/1-guild-wars-2-lipo/? We have a good amount unlocked but most of our 40 members play other games, so we are trying to build our active player base again. Food for thought.

Ursan.7846:

Hey, more anecdotal evidence for you. I came home about an hour ago. I’ve done Golem and Teq so far, and missed out on Jormag because of Overflow. 2 rares in an hour, with nothing but dead time in between. Efficient farming!

I’m done with this discussion, by the way. Until you can bring to the discussion something more substantive than anecdotal evidence and personal opinions, and until you can cease flip-flopping on your own points (random is horrible! No, random is good!) (Valueless because bad efficiency! No, I don’t care about efficiency!) this conversation is at an end.

It’s good that you and i are at this impasse, maybe it’ll provide some good feedback, maybe it’ll just be a confusing wall of text, who knows.

I’m not a farmer, I personally don’t use my playtime to decide what makes me the most money an hour, I play because i enjoy it, but that enjoyment is waning. Yes, I think some RNG is fine (it’s pretty much the staple in many MMO’s) and yes, in turn, i also feel there is an excessive amount of RNG in GW2, I can be of 2 minds on it.

I have made some outrageous claims using terms like practically valueless or completely useless, but it’s how i feel about what i’d hoped to be more rewarding returns on my time investment, it’s not about hard number, never was. It’s actually only ever going to be about my opinion and i’m not really alone in it. Many of those people i play with actually have regiments that yield much better returns than your example above and i’ve run them a few times, enough to know that dungeon rewards, versus effort are broken.

I used the example of my wifes experience, since that’s how MANY people i play with end up experiencing things, it’s broken, don’t ask me about facts to back it up, it just is. I can make these claims all day long, i don’t need numbers and facts, this isn’t a court case against anyone. I’m not out to hang ANet for their choices.

munkiman.3068:

Ursan.7846:

No, i don’t think they should be able to be sold, i.e. legendaries.

Ah, so you think Legendaries should be exclusive rewards, but dungeon skins shouldn’t? (per your complain about CM/Arah token exchanging.) Just like how I think Legendaries should be exclusive to those who play the game (account-bound) I think dungeons should be exclusive to those who play the dungeon. You’re flip-flopping in your philosophy when it suits you.

First and foremost legendaries aren’t really exclusive rewards, i understand your point in that they require doing X dungeon for the gifts, but they are a culmination of things that need to be done in order to achieve. There’s actually a pretty broad difference between gated behind one piece of content exclusively and gated behind almost all content found in the game. Nothing wrong with the goal there being tied to the person achieving them.

I’d actually like to see dungeons giving even more random, exclusive rewards. At least then they’d seem more rewarding to tackle. The token idea seemed sound to me at launch. Yet now it just seems like a waste, simply since that’s the primary reward and when a player no longer wants/needs them, they seem practically valueless and basically useless. A good example of this change in direction is the molten facility, or madking. They offered exclusive rewards, but not so exclusive that they hold such a bad value to a player. The gauntlets were actually a nice touch since they were tied with the dungeon and it’s limited time in getting them will probably be a nostalgia thing, much like the stuff you got in gw1 for short term events. However, if the dungeon dropped the same junk most dungeons do and all i got where those gloves, I’d of done it once, maybe twice and been done with it.

Anyway, i respect your opinions, thanks for the dance.

Ursan.7846:

You know why this argumentation is so utterly unconvincing?

Because you choose to highlight problems dungeon runs have, while completely ignoring problems World Events have. You’re placing a significant weight on the problems of the former, while dismissing the problems of the latter, without bothering to actually quantifying the effects these issues have on the overall profitability.

I have repeated the biggest issue World Event farming has on efficiency (random spawn times). There’s also problems of DCing during events or instances of overflow.

But you know what, lets actually calculate how much you can earn through world events. Take my previous assumption of an average of 35s per World Boss. Not including the Temple stuff, Timers have 8 bosses on its timer. That equals 2G80s. Are you seriously saying you can fit all 8 events within….an hour? 2 hours? Take 2 hours, considering you got incredibly lucky with all the spawns. ~3G in 2 hours? Man, what a horrible reward, according to your logic?[/qoute]

So all along, you keep giving me calculations and saying i’m an obsessive farmer. There’s actually 10 world boss events, and there are about 25 quests chains in between, you can do the math, i just know what a good majority of players are doing around me. It’s pretty much what they all seem to favor doing over dungeons, most of them have what they want from the dungeons. Sure CoF p1, let’s do that 20 times a day and that’s clearly broken.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

I’d be “happier” without all this excess “currency” or if they want to continue this thing, at least give people some better exchange options. The exchange rate of activities in this game are all over the place. It’s just a mess right now and all these extra “currencies” don’t make it any better. All the facts you’re giving me don’t make it sound any better either.

This is what you posted originally:

munkiman.3068:

meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway

munkiman.3068:

In my eyes 1 practically valueless currency is excessive.

You try to justify your reasoning that currency is excessive when it’s valueless. Which I call bullkitten on. How much gold are you earning to make 32s “entirely useless?” You then went on to imply that anything suboptimal to maximized efficiency farming is “horrible” and “poor” and “practically valueless.” Sure, your personal opinion, but again based on this conversation I am imagining you as a hardcore farmer with nothing but contempt for anything suboptimal.

Also it’s already been explained in the thread why the dungeon token system exists: to award dungeon-unique rewards in a non-RNG method. Do you disagree with this? Or do you want this accomplishment diluted with some kind of a token exchange?

I’d like to bolster a reason for people to actually want to do them, since maybe the extra work in getting things going and completing them would actually be worth it.

Ursan.7846:

On a very related note, do you think Legendaries should be account-bound? Do you think it’s okay that it can be bought/sold with gold?

You can call bullkitten on it all you want, you can toss around numbers too. Simply stating they have some value (%50 less value in most cases), when there are clearly better options for earning more, really says nothing to bolster your points. My wife sat afk (family dropped by) while her pet auto attacked at SB and got final rest which she promptly sold for 5g, she was afk all of 5 minutes. This stuff happens constantly with these world events, it’s a problem, these currencies are worthless once you get what you want, since there are clearly better ways to get better rewards, it’s not rocket surgery. Maybe you’re spending too much time crunching numbers? I dunno.

Don’t try and call me out on numbers, i clearly don’t have them, it’s been my experience, this is what the majority of folks around me are doing

No, i don’t think they should be able to be sold, i.e. legendaries.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

I’ll explain my personal experiences with this, if it possibly clarifies anything, fine. I completely believe that personal rewards and earnings in this game are poor. That is based on my overall experiences in other MMO’s. This also based on the fact that for about an hours worth of work in a RL job i can get more G than i can in a month or more of just playing the game (that’s if i want to drop 50 bucks). That is an experience i can’t match in any other game i’ve played.

I really do hope you realize why this is the case, right? (WHAT OTHER GAMES ALLOW YOU TO CONVERT IN-GAME GOLD INTO MICROTRANSACTION PURCHASES. THIS IS A GOOD THING.)

What exactly are you emphasizing here? It’s good to keep the player base poor so they need to convert gems (RL currency) into gold, so they don’t need to farm for months on end to get a reward that’s really one of the only end game goals in the whole ball of wax? That’s a good thing? The economy is tight, not necessarily a bad thing, but the focus is so much on the journey that it losses sight of a goal. Yes, there are a few lucky ducks out there, but that’s exactly what the end goal is in the game, pure luck. That to me isn’t a good structure in the long run and arguably the game is bleeding players for it. Not to mention they keep adding this luck of the drawn thing…

munkiman.3068:

But, an extra gold an hour based on all the other factors i mentioned is pretty significant. Especially when comparing such a low overall earning potential. You’re pointing at a %50 increase in earnings and you don’t find that significant… I dunno what to say to that.

Ursan.7846:

You don’t know what to say to it because you selectively choose to ignore my sections of my posts in order to fit your arguments (Something you’ve chosen to done repeatedly.)

1. I was making a comparison of an averaged dungeon run vs an optimized Orr event run. You’re chosen to purposefully ignore it, but I also have numbers of for more optimal dungeon runs of AC and CoF, which are of similar profitability.
2. Did I say it wasn’t significant? No, it obviously a difference. However, is it different enough to make earnings of 2G “poor” “horrible” or “lacking?” Apparently according to your definitions they do, but I find your penchant for maximum efficiency incredulous.

I have no maximum efficiency rating in mind, hell i just play and not worry about the money. You seem to be the one focused on my term of practically valueless and pointing at the numbers, I actually don’t give a kitten. Nor am i ignoring anything, i actually stated that what you used as examples are significant. In fact, so much so, that people actually opt to do world events because it’s so significantly better/easier to do so. I’m in a couple guilds and that’s pretty much all they do, farm orr, do world events and on rare occasion do a dungeon when someone needs tokens or achievements. Anet even had to cripple the world chests just to get people away from doing maw every 20 minutes. That’s not a fix either, i know at least 30 people that quit the game due to this kind of stuff.

munkiman.3068:

The big differences with doing the world events are really this, they are guaranteed earnings (i’ve gone with groups into AC and didn’t even make it through the first room, sad as that is), they rarely (besides grenth) fail and i don’t need to wait for a group to get together to do them. All this convenience comes at a better rate of return than the frustrations typically associated with dungeon runs.

Ahh, i see. Yes, it won’t work that way, since your headset port takes over the speakers on your laptop. You would need to use a different source to connect to your USB port to create another listening device. Something like this http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/USB-to-Headset-Microphone-PC-Sound-Card-Adapter/2507197/product.html?cid=202290&kid=9553000357392&track=pspla&ef_id=yphQGSapzCwAAFkc:20130513222308:s . This will give you split audio devices so you can hear out of your speakers and your headset separately.

I’ll explain my personal experiences with this, if it possibly clarifies anything, fine. I completely believe that personal rewards and earnings in this game are poor. That is based on my overall experiences in other MMO’s. This also based on the fact that for about an hours worth of work in a RL job i can get more G than i can in a month or more of just playing the game (that’s if i want to drop 50 bucks). That is an experience i can’t match in any other game i’ve played. So no, i’m no efficient hard-core farming machine. But, an extra gold an hour based on all the other factors i mentioned is pretty significant. Especially when comparing such a low overall earning potential. You’re pointing at a %50 increase in earnings and you don’t find that significant… I dunno what to say to that.

My LFG spam and standing around waiting for a run has to do strictly with guild members. I don’t PUG, I’d rather play with people invested in the run, which is rare among PUG’s, than waste my time with a kick at the end boss or a fail run because some angry farmer doesn’t like someones build and rage quits.

I’d be “happier” without all this excess “currency” or if they want to continue this thing, at least give people some better exchange options. The exchange rate of activities in this game are all over the place. It’s just a mess right now and all these extra “currencies” don’t make it any better. All the facts you’re giving me don’t make it sound any better either.

The big differences with doing the world events are really this, they are guaranteed earnings (i’ve gone with groups into AC and didn’t even make it through the first room, sad as that is), they rarely (besides grenth) fail and i don’t need to wait for a group to get together to do them. All this convenience comes at a better rate of return than the frustrations typically associated with dungeon runs. Yes, for sure i’d rather MF/salvage/sell – rares/exotics i get as drops than exchange tokens to do the same thing. It has nothing to do with randomness, that had to do with how you’re rating your return on dungeons, that’s going to happen regardless what content you’re doing. There’s already a gross amount of RNG in the game, but that’s another topic entirely.

Just to clarify. In Sound control panel the device that is connected to your speakers has a green check next to it? If so, do you hear system sounds through the speakers?

Anything else you need to setup would be in vent and is completely separate from your default playback device.

In vent what is your external mic?

It really just sounds like you have your devices mixed up, it’s pretty easy to get mixed up.

I might have an undedicated mini or 2 in gw1 if you want. I won’t be online till 3:30 PM PDT though (server time).

All variants of karma boosting works with jugs. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Karma

You need to set your default playback device (in sounds control panel) to your speakers and the vent sound needs to be set to your headset.

Server reset tomorrow, I’m sure it’ll be fixed then.

tinymurder.5791:

munkiman.3068:

tinymurder.5791:

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

A group of us did just that. It took about 3 minutes longer to complete Molten Foundry at a net gain of about 1-1.5g (across the team, not individually) using a full MF set on the same composition of professions. Hardly worth arguing over. Tougher dungeons however would be much longer i suppose.

The stat seems basically useless to me, “RNG” is pretty kitten in the game and that boost of MF gear just doesn’t seem to help much at all. I mean it works, but it’s hardly worth the sacrifice for most content.

Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you. I could have sworn my words were falling on deaf ears. So to speak.

So, was this a group you regularly run with? Familiar people, good communication, etc? Did the increase of time seem to be directly linked to the decrease in damage, or a decrease in survivability? Please, let me know if you decide to try any more experiments.

Yes, it was a guild group all on vent, we just decided to test the theory and we’ve run that dungeon several times together. The added time i think came from not getting the troll spawn (ember spawn instead) and there was a few extra deaths there. I’m pretty sure a less experienced group would take a higher hit in overall time.

In order to accurately gauge something like this would most likely require several runs with and without MF gear. But overall, nothing seemed any harder with MF gear.

Interesting article on some of this topic. http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you

I’m going to try not to get too far off topic and say, the event timers (at least on NSP) are fairly accurate, the wait time to get a 5 man into the dungeon is often longer and that’s usually just one run.

I’m not disregarding your numbers, I’m saying they are poor compared to even just playing events in orr. There’s a reason people are running those events over doing dungeons, they simply earn more in less time and don’t require LFG. Just in Heavy Moldy bags alone i can earn more per hour than any dungeon, just running the temple zerg or running event chains in orr.

It’s not even about a significant amount, dungeons take time to get going, they take people that know what to do and there is always a fair chance at a fail or a drop/kick. Silly little things like that make dungeon runs far less lucrative then just running from world event to world event or quest chain to quest chain.

Dungeon tokens are really a small example of too many “currencies”. It’d be an entirely different story if these were interchangeable or held some G value that didn’t require tossing things in the Mystic Toilet or messing with salvage kits at even a .8 rate of return. Yes, obviously my opinion, but i can earn more doing the aforementioned stuff without LFG spam or standing around waiting for a run.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

Useless and worthless are 2 different things, but you’re right i should have said practically useless as i did in a later statement. I said practically valueless. Those rates are horrible and i did mention doing exactly that in a previous post. Try to keep up, if you’re going to blast me for something i already mentioned.

You did mention it. Then dismissed it as “worthless” and “useless.” Practically. What I’m arguing is that these actions you dismissed still hold significant value.

How are “Rates are horrible?”

Assume a 30 minute run of a 70+ dungeon. Assume a 26s boss, and two 10s bosses, and around 20s in vendor trash. You can convert the 60 tokens into 40s, as per my calculations previously.

It means 37% of your gold earnings were from the tokens themselves. An extra 40s with 30 min spent is a “horrible rate?” (You’ve increased your gold earnings by 50% because of the tokens). Are you saying an extra 40s is useless? Worthless? What?

You keep on tossing this subjective “Oh these rates are horrible.” You have absolutely no basis for this observations except “I personally think these tokens to be valued more.” I’m giving you numbers to show you that they actually make up for quite a significant portion of your dungeon earnings.

Ectos are 20s and dropping. The rates are horrible because they are based on if you get lucky with either salvage or the mystic toilet. A couple world bosses will give you the same amount for far less time than most dungeons. For a fairly corner stone piece of content the rewards are pretty lacking, not to mention the token system itself.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway.

“Entirely useless?” That is completely and utterly untrue.

If you have no interest in dungeon armor/weapon skins, you can use these tokens to…

1. If 70+, can purchase rares and salvage for ectos. One run is 60 tokens. That is 2 rares. Going with an average of 0.8 ectos per rare, and 25s for ectos, that’s 40s you earned.

2. If <70, can purchase exotics and MF them into exotics that can sell. I do this with shields. 210 * 4 tokens = 1 ~3-5G exotic, more if you’re lucky. Assume 5G per 840 tokens. That is 14 runs. That is an average of 35.7s per run.

Your assumption that these tokens are “useless” is completely false. They can be converted into gold (at quite decent rates). You’re purposefully ignoring the value of salvaging/MFing them in order to further your argument, and I find that incredible dishonest. You’re applying your subjective idea of “entirely worthless” to something that has very real value.

Useless and worthless are 2 different things, but you’re right i should have said practically useless as i did in a later statement. I said practically valueless. Those rates are horrible and i did mention doing exactly that in a previous post. Try to keep up, if you’re going to blast me for something i already mentioned.

BlasiuS.8961:

No I didn’t lump them into one currency. kitten they’re not even currency, they’re tokens. And I said one token type per dungeon. Which is exactly what the system is. I’m not double-talking. It’s a very simple and straightforward system.

Having a different opinion is not the problem. But arguing back and forth about subjective opinions on what is “excessive” is a barrier to discussion.

If there’s going to be a meaningful debate on whether or not we have too many currencies, we first have to define what “too many” means.

So the issue is that tokens aren’t currency now? I’m going off the OP where tokens were mentioned as currency, fine call them all tokens, call them all ham sandwiches for all it matters. We are clearly trading one type of thing for another, they obviously don’t meet a world definition of currency since they clearly aren’t interchangeable and hold next to no value (i.e. Gold, silver or copper).

The system as it’s designed holds a very short term value, meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway. Or, people won’t bother doing this particular content, since the rewards are in essence practically useless. You can’t trade em, you can’t sell em, you can’t even do much with the gear but toss it down the mystic toilet or salvage it. This goes with a lot of the different “currencies” in the game, over the long run they are practically valueless.

This is essentially my issue with what i feel is an excessive amount of currencies. In my eyes 1 practically valueless currency is excessive. Great i have 5 million fun house tokens (which took me 15 minutes-2.5 hours to get) that i can trade for a clown nose… Fantastic!

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

rather, you’re just complaining that you can’t convert dungeon tokens of one type into another so that you can get the CM skin you want. That’s a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with the amount of currencies in the game.

How 10 different types of dungeon “currencies” isn’t a rational for an excessive amount of currencies is beyond your scope of thinking, apparently.

It’s one token type per dungeon, how is that excessive.

Anyway that’s besides the point; what is “excessive” is purely subjective, so unless you have a concrete definition don’t bother trying to belittle my scope of thinking, thanks.

Interesting, you come in with “petty complaining” on my behalf and now i’m belittling you? Ok, I apologize.

excessive: more than is necessary, normal, or desirable. I don’t need a concrete number to debate the topic. It’s obviously my opinion, not sure why people continue to want some concrete evidence, this isn’t rocket surgery.

Also interesting on how you lumped dungeon tokens into one currency, which is pretty much what i proposed to begin with. Saying one token type per dungeon, when there are 9 different traders with 10 different currencies all trading unique things to me is excessive. And that’s just dungeons.

Regardless, there’s no point debating it. You obviously have a different opinion on the matter.

tinymurder.5791:

None of that, however, has anything to do with my post. MF users seem to be bothered by the attitude of non-MF users in dungeon groups. My post was askinf why not form your own, MF-friendly groups? Your response and the responses of others, unsurprisingly, does not address this point.

Oh well, I didn’t figure I’d get any takers. Science can wait, I guess.

A group of us did just that. It took about 3 minutes longer to complete Molten Foundry at a net gain of about 1-1.5g (across the team, not individually) using a full MF set on the same composition of professions. Hardly worth arguing over. Tougher dungeons however would be much longer i suppose.

The stat seems basically useless to me, “RNG” is pretty kitten in the game and that boost of MF gear just doesn’t seem to help much at all. I mean it works, but it’s hardly worth the sacrifice for most content.

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

rather, you’re just complaining that you can’t convert dungeon tokens of one type into another so that you can get the CM skin you want. That’s a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with the amount of currencies in the game.

How 10 different types of dungeon “currencies” isn’t a rational for an excessive amount of currencies is beyond your scope of thinking, apparently.

Well, my outrageous claim still stands, took 270 keys to get a ticket. But, then i did open a chest with a free key i got and received another ticket. If i only knew…

For me it’s not an if/or scenario, the dungeon token was a good idea at first. It’s just not a long term thing really.

Another thread in suggestion (i think) talked about an armor/weapon wardrobe. Similar to pvp, it would hold all the looks, it might be a good incentive to some players to actually collect dungeon armor at that point.

BlasiuS.8961:

I think you’re confusing “entire game” with “end-game armor and weapon stats”. They are very different.

The end-game gear design has nothing to do with your petty complaining, trying to equate them is confusing, bizarre, and most importantly, wrong.

It’d be nice if you stopped with how it’s petty complaining, i’m not even complaining. You’re pointing to “end-game armor and weapon stats” i’m pointing to aesthetics, not confusing, bizarre or wrong by any stretch. At this point you just seem to be arguing for the sake of it.

BlasiuS.8961:

The CoE and Arah tokens come directly from running those dungeons. That means you ran those dungeons over and over for tokens you don’t even need -_-

I run them since i enjoy them. i also do them to help people get their tokens and achievements for completing them. I don’t need ectos or runes right now either, doesn’t mean i’ll stop salvaging armor/weapons for them and sell them on the TP, something i i’m not really interested in doing with these practically useless tokens. I could just do that with what i get for the tokens, but i’ll hold on to them to see if there are any changes to the system for a bit longer.

BlasiuS.8961:

As for your personal issues with CM, that’s your own problem. It’s impossible to match the personal tastes in skins for all players with their personal taste in dungeon content, without compromising their core design. If you really want those CM skins bad enough, then they’ll justify the grind.

As for the trader, that would directly contradict ANets design philosophy for their dungeons. If such a trader existed, everyone would only play the dungeon that gave the most tokens/hour and ignore the rest; obviously ANet doesn’t want this.

It’s not “impossible to match the personal tastes in skins for all players with their personal taste in dungeon content, without compromising their core design”, i’m giving an example how it is possible. I’ve not read or heard of anything saying this is a core design philosophy choice. But of course, this thread is entirely about questioning the excessive amount of currencies, which is what i’ve been doing, along with offering a possible solution.

I suppose it’s possible you have a finger on the “ANet doesn’t want this”, so i’ll take your entire blatant assumptions with a grain of salt. As far as grind “we don’t make grindy games” so more than likely, it’s something they probably don’t want.

I would suggest a few changes to this, but overall it’s sound. First, it’s doesn’t need to be consumed, once you wear the item it becomes soulbound, so simply equipping the item unlocks it in your wardrobe. Second, ditch transmutation stones all together or make just one type. Lastly, there is already a zone armor/weapon drop setup, but please no more soul-bound on acquire items besides the gem shop stuff and the stuff you buy with karma, tokens etc.

There’s a pretty large sample size up there already http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heavy_Moldy_Bag/Drop_rate.

CoRtex.2157:

Let me say something, it seems that people think that if you have more skills, only the strongest set of them will be used. Well.. that’s mostly the case. But what you are forgetting is that that only counts for 1 part on the map. What having more skills is about is that you can adapt your build to your environment. With the current system it doesn’t matter where you are, you will always use the same skills. maybe change 1 or 2 skills for a certain dungeon, but that’s it. It doesn’t make the game verry dynamic, it makes it boring & grindy. That’s also why i never felt like grinding in GW1. It was called farming, and was kitten fun with all those builds.

I only used a handful of builds in GW and i played since beta. Those builds were the most effective builds, more often than not i didn’t even need to change them at all. We had fun messing with skills in pvp, but for the most part, the builds that were popular were so for a reason. I thought i’d miss being a monk and clicking on bars, i’m glad that’s gone.

GW2 has it’s balance problems, but none of them as glaringly broken as the meta builds GW had. At several points in it’s history, there were builds that simply dominated all others. People were pigeon-holed into roles and classes that they had to run, it was silly. I like the chaos of battle GW2 skill system provides, I’m not looking at which skill i need to cast anymore, i just know since the bar is always the same. I simply spend more time reacting to the fight.

So, a group of us did a little test. We ran the Molten dungeon with and without a full party of MF gear. Bottom line, took use a little less than 3 minutes longer using the same toons and earned us on average about 1g-1.5g gold more for that extra 3 minutes. Do with that what you will.

Forget the rigger aspect of the post for a minute. Rigging in many ways is an unintentional by-product of people thinking they can typically buy low and sell high, many people do it and the listing fee actually keeps these margins much looser. There are some player controlled markets that run through the TP overall, but in many cases it seems like it’s mostly those that play the market for profit, trading bulk low cost items between each other and speculating the higher priced stuff. Even if there were a few big players on the market that controlled pre-cursors at the top end, you will still see instant buy offers that are easier for players to swallow, that’s where we don’t see the data as clearly.

One thing, and i’ve mentioned this before, is to have instant buy offers cover costs so sellers don’t have to come up with the listing fee. Over and over i hear of people not having the fee to sell off to instant buy offers. I personally think this is an oversight and one that should be fixed.

I see the point of listing fees, however, being able to change your sell offer price is a huge thing missing from the TP. Even on small transactions, you could easily eat a large amount of your profit in single transactions, since the listing fee is fixed. Moving bulk at lower priced items yields next to nothing when selling in bulk, so many people put spreads on sell offers in units of 10’s increasing each sell offer buy 5% to cover smaller purchase profit loss. This not to mention the constant undercutting. So the spread really does hurt the buyer since the sellers need to resort to increasing the spread.

I’ve pointed out (almost to the length of it being a pet-peeve) that players general earnings are poor, which keeps the market fairly stale. Players with low incomes and very easy access to the market, make poor choices. If players had marginally better incomes, you’d see less of this nickle and dime movement of product.

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy.

This is just silly. The dungeon gear is the reward for doing the dungeon! Of course you should have to play through a dungeon if you specifically want that dungeons gear.

The whole point of making the dungeon gear the same as other level 80 exotic gear is so that you aren’t forced to play through it in order to have the best stats. The gear is purely cosmetic. Complaining that ANet is “forcing” you to play through a dungeon just for a purely cosmetic skin that you happen to like is petty.

The entire game is based around cosmetics when it comes to gear, so basically the entire design around cosmetic gear is petty then. More options for “rewards” is better than gating gear behind specific dungeon tokens. I have a ton of CoE tokens and Arah tokens, but I like CM armor. I loathe running CM, it’s boring and i really don’t like the story, so if i want CM i’m forced to play that dungeon over and over, period. It’s poorly thought out since many dungeon tokens are useless to a plethora of people.

I suggested a trader to give people with useless tokens a chance to get something different, ultimately have a single token type for all dungeons and rewarding more tokens for harder dungeons would make sense as well. Fractals rewards 2 token types (not to mention globs and essences) it’s really just out-of-hand at this point. I have 2.5 bank tabs of tokens I prolly will never use, seems like a waste to me.

I completely agree with this. The saving grace for me is that i rolled 2 asura and one sylvari male and a human female. If i rolled a norn i’d end up with a female also, simply since the armor on the men is almost always horrid. The race makes up for the really bad looks on the human race. There is a major difference between crafted exotics on an asura male than on a human/norn/sylvari male or female, it’s a million times less gaudy.