Guild Wars 2

what Daigle said; if you see the retaliation boon on your foe, stop attacking or dodge away, react dynamically rather than attempt a brute force zero strategy.

If you attack one foe with the FT, it does 10x hits to that one mob, dealing X dmg. If you then put in a second mob and a third mob in the same spot, it is now doing X dmg to 3 targets, which is 3x the dmg. Now, between 3 and 10 targets, nothing changes (10×3 or 3×10, same value), add more, and then things start to get wonky. But, in ideal conditions, the ft#1 can strike up to 30 times in two seconds. This is a weapon that thrives against multiple opponents, while its single target dmg is reduced.

This is not to say that if 1 target ~1850dps then 3 target ~5550dps, but rather to say that up to 3 targets, dps increases over a single target up to a ceiling. In sPvP or in WvW or in PvE that means that ft is best against large groups of enemies in prolonged fights (point defense, zerg disruption, farming/trash-mob tanking).

it does not need 1500 range to compete with grenades because it isn’t supposed to compete with grenades, it is designed for a different style of play.

afaik, this isn’t “testable” on dummies because they dont move and you cannot crit.

fortunately this is a video game, where melee is a swung weapon and ranged is anything projectile, not real life where the length of your reach actually matter, ergo:

melee = mace, hammer, dagger, sword, etc
ranged = short/long bow, rifle, pistol, etc.

ft is ranged because it is a projectile weapon. short or long range is irrelevant.

edits:
the question is whether ft 1 is a projectile or not, i can see why you would think it is not.
ie: mesmer gs1 is also a projectile attack, not a melee attack even though it is a “melee” weapon.
as such, all weapons then may have melee and/or ranged attacks (throw dagger).

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Engineers,

We feel your pain.

Best of luck. You know what they say about misery loving company…

-The Rangers

Im glad someone feels our pain, I’ve been drinking so many elixirs that things are just numb right now!

Woooookittens!

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

i use net turet, rocket turret, grenade kit, and medkit with supply crate underwater.

Sporadicus.1028:

On nakoda’s build (mentioned in page 2 near the middle):

Have you ever thought about putting Net Turret in your build for two immobilization attacks?

yes, and for the longest time I did. and, I do so in my pve/exploring build for making champs easier.

I eventually opted for the dual stun break and extra cond removal to make up for lack of any real toughness outside of Jugg since I use the Rempager ammy.

Another option I ran with for extra burn was to swap Goggles for Battering Ram and Elixir R for Rocket Boots, then put 10pt in to Tools for Speedy Gadgets. Oh, now? 3 knock backs. /titter

SilverWF.4789:

And if you learn to read posts you will stop posting your lol-PVE advices to the WvWer.

um, what?

anyway, most of what I talk about is spvp.

re: retaliation:
afaik, retaliation procs from any damage dealt to the player with the buff, but if the player avoids the damage in any way (blocks, dodges, whatever), then the retaliation does not reciprocate damage back to the attacker.

so, since many nades often miss the target, they do not all proc the retaliation at once, but if/when they do, ouch.

SilverWF.4789:

Lepew.7890:

In the builds thread, a FT build similar to this was described,

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-XRR;2Z-Vv0o5VQkw0;9;49T-T-4;047A;119Ay

Where Juggernaut and HGH ramp up stacks of might, and runes of Hoelbrak, Strength, and Fire buff might duration along with your +30% boon duration from Alchemy. The author said he could maintain 25 stacks of might.

My question is this- have you guys factored in the 25 stacks of might when you compare FT to grenade or bomb kit? I suppose if you do not build for it or gear for it or use buff food for it, it might be hard to get that much might. Has anyone tried this build since the most recent patch?

Why you posted this?

You hitting 3 targets under retaliation. If you have good power, especially under 25 Might, Retal will hits you for 400-450 per hit!
So, 5 hits/sec multiple by 3 equal 15. multiple it by 400 equal 6k. Add 2nd second of the Flame Jet – another 6k
You will hit yourself for the TWELVE THOUSANDS damage while your targets will recieve only 4k (5k with crits!) each.

You mean that one time when your opponent actually had retaliation up? You know you can stop attacking, hit another target, and then go back again, right? Or, you know you can do something other than just mindlessly fire FT 1, right? Like a knockback?

If you learn to read your opponents, you know that you shouldn’t attack because retal is up, or because you have confusion (which is, imo, deadlier to the FT engie than retal), or whatever.

Do you just run into masses of foes and try to spread FT 1 around and expect it to be uber dmg without the frustration of dying? If so, you are doing it wrong.

I was PM’d asking for my build, so I will put it out here for everyone to look at.

First, a disclaimer.

I am not a theory crafter, I am not a number cruncher. The following link is to the gear, skills, and traits that I use when in sPvP — PVE/Wuvwuv are different. Also, this is what I currently use: there are many things that change depending on my mood and what I am testing.

The build (Bad Link! Bad! Copy + Paste the URL to visit):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqel0pyaX7ShF17ICoHAWddXiUofN2HFs1DC;ToAg1Cqo8y0loLbROvkFNIYmB

I use Incendiary Powder, Enhanced Performance, Precise Sights, Fireforged Trigger, Juggernaut, Protection Injection, and Deadly Mixture.
I use Rampager PVP trink w/ 2x Lyssa + 2x Monk + 2x Water runes.
I use Sigil of Accuracy and Sigil of Strength
- as strong as the Rifle is (and it is) I prefer the extra sigil option of having both hands busy.

Pistol/Shield, Medkit, Flamethrower, Utility Goggles, Elixir R, Supply Crate.

The point of this build is to PRESS your foes. Stay on them like glue. Get in the face of ranged players. Make them move. Time spent moving is time spent not attacking (sure there are moving attacks, just like FT 1, but the basic premise applies to everyone). Melee are controlled through various knockbacks (push them away, keep them close by chasing.

You use Medkit 5 and Utility goggles for perma fury upkeep (+20% crit)
You use P/S for confusion applications and for Shield 4 knock back and Shield 5 daze.
You use Elixir R for Endurance (I dodge a lot) and the cond removal on the Toolbelt.
You use the FT as your primary damage dealing kit.
You use Incendiary Ammo, Air Blast (since feb 26), and Napalm to maintain burns.

Sigil of Strength and Juggernaut = 15-20 stacks of might (I’ve hit 25 in PVE)
• Keep in mind that this requires you to:

1. keep swapping every 10 or so seconds into Medkit for the EP buff (3 might stacks)
2. use FT 1 liberally to seek crit procs on the sigil (pistol 3 is also very good for this)
3. (optional) replace accuracy sigil with battle sigil so your swapping also adds might.

I find myself often picking a single target and dogging them until they hate me, damage to their allies is icing on the cake.

Things that I often swap:

HGH and Enhanced Performance:
I think that Enhanced Performance is an overall easier way of maintaining might stacks, but the bonus to HGH is that you get the full boon duration buff from alchemy, which makes your Protection Injection essentially permanent with the Water and Monk runes, though, really, the extra 10% isn’t doing much, and the extra POW from Explosions is pretty sexy-times. I typically use Enhanced Performance.
- in PVE I use Exploit Weakness to slow mobs down while farming.

Precise Sights + Protection Injection vs Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed:
I tend to stick with the prior, I don’t find myself needing to go off on really lengthy chases while in combat, and I use the Medkit 5 for swiftness out of combat. On most sPvP maps, this is plenty to get from A to B (A being out of combat, and B being in combat .. ).
- sometimes I swap 10 points from Explosions to Tools for the crit dmg and speedy kits, and when doing so I completely negate the need for swift on crit. The vigor trait is really nice though because I like to dodge a lot. Overall, I stick with Pow.

Protection Injection vs Self-regulating Defense:
The auto Elixir S is really nice, and always fun to watch in the middle of a fray, but with boon duration buffs, I think that a (near) perma protection is a more solid choice.

Elixir R is entirely a preference. C is super handy (you can never have too much cond removal. B is boss, and U is fun for spamming FT 2 (if you are lucky enough to get quickness). I like R because with R and Goggles I have two stun breaks, blindness immunity, and extra endurance.

My play style is very aggressive and mobile. I pick a foe, and I stick to them, I burn them, knock them down, burn them some more, throw some fire on them, knock them down again, confuse them, daze them, then for kicks I burn them again before knocking them down … again.

Air Blast and Shield 4 toss are immeasurably fun and useful, ESPECIALLY now that we can detonate FT 2 when we want to.

FT dmg scales best with POW, but it is a PRE weapon (firearms tree, at least), so its POW gains come from might stacks, and as such, high crit + strength sigil + enhanced performance is where I have found my own sweet spot.

Play it, test it, rip it apart, I leave it to you, but I enjoy this build a heck of a lot and I never find myself wishing I were an Ele.

/2quid

(PS – the nerf that really hit hard was the foodbuff fix. Imma miss my omnom ghosts! but I was so OP with omnoms and this build; the moment I first nommered some berries I knew the nerfs were coming. I could smell them!)

I was PM’d asking for my build, so I will put it out here for everyone to look at.

First, a disclaimer.

I am not a theory crafter, I am not a number cruncher. The following link is to the gear, skills, and traits that I use when in sPvP — PVE/Wuvwuv are different. Also, this is what I currently use: there are many things that change depending on my mood and what I am testing.

The build (Bad Link! Bad! Copy + Paste the URL to visit):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqel0pyaX7ShF17ICoHAWddXiUofN2HFs1DC;ToAg1Cqo8y0loLbROvkFNIYmB

I use Incendiary Powder, Enhanced Performance, Precise Sights, Foreforged Trigger, Juggernaut, Protection Injection, and Deadly Mixture.
I use Rampager PVP trink w/ 2x Lyssa + 2x Monk + 2x Water runes.
I use Sigil of Accuracy and Sigil of Strength
- as strong as the Rifle is (and it is) I prefer the extra sigil option of having both hands busy.

Pistol/Shield, Medkit, Flamethrower, Utility Goggles, Elixir R, Supply Crate.

The point of this build is to PRESS your foes. Stay on them like glue. Get in the face of ranged players. Make them move. Time spent moving is time spent not attacking (sure there are moving attacks, just like FT 1, but the basic premise applies to everyone). Melee are controlled through various knockbacks (push them away, keep them close by chasing.

You use Medkit 5 and Utility goggles for perma fury upkeep (+20% crit)
You use P/S for confusion applications and for Shield 4 knock back and Shield 5 daze.
You use Elixir R for Endurance (I dodge a lot) and the cond removal on the Toolbelt.
You use the FT as your primary damage dealing kit.
You use Incendiary Ammo, Air Blast (since feb 26), and Napalm to maintain burns.

Sigil of Strength and Juggernaut = 15-20 stacks of might (I’ve hit 25 in PVE)
• Keep in mind that this requires you to:

1. keep swapping every 10 or so seconds into Medkit for the EP buff (3 might stacks)
2. use FT 1 liberally to seek crit procs on the sigil (pistol 3 is also very good for this)
3. (optional) replace accuracy sigil with battle sigil so your swapping also adds might.

I find myself often picking a single target and dogging them until they hate me, damage to their allies is icing on the cake.

Things that I often swap:

HGH and Enhanced Performance:
I think that Enhanced Performance is an overall easier way of maintaining might stacks, but the bonus to HGH is that you get the full boon duration buff from alchemy, which makes your Protection Injection essentially permanent with the Water and Monk runes, though, really, the extra 10% isn’t doing much, and the extra POW from Explosions is pretty sexy-times. I typically use Enhanced Performance.
- in PVE I use Exploit Weakness to slow mobs down while farming.

Precise Sights + Protection Injection vs Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed:
I tend to stick with the prior, I don’t find myself needing to go off on really lengthy chases while in combat, and I use the Medkit 5 for swiftness out of combat. On most sPvP maps, this is plenty to get from A to B (A being out of combat, and B being in combat .. ).
- sometimes I swap 10 points from Explosions to Tools for the crit dmg and speedy kits, and when doing so I completely negate the need for swift on crit. The vigor trait is really nice though because I like to dodge a lot. Overall, I stick with Pow.

Protection Injection vs Self-regulating Defense:
The auto Elixir S is really nice, and always fun to watch in the middle of a fray, but with boon duration buffs, I think that a (near) perma protection is a more solid choice.

Elixir R is entirely a preference. C is super handy (you can never have too much cond removal. B is boss, and U is fun for spamming FT 2 (if you are lucky enough to get quickness). I like R because with R and Goggles I have two stun breaks, blindness immunity, and extra endurance.

My play style is very aggressive and mobile. I pick a foe, and I stick to them, I burn them, knock them down, burn them some more, throw some fire on them, knock them down again, confuse them, daze them, then for kicks I burn them again before knocking them down … again.

Air Blast and Shield 4 toss are immeasurably fun and useful, ESPECIALLY now that we can detonate FT 2 when we want to.

FT dmg scales best with POW, but it is a PRE weapon (firearms tree, at least), so its POW gains come from might stacks, and as such, high crit + strength sigil + enhanced performance is where I have found my own sweet spot.

Play it, test it, rip it apart, I leave it to you, but I enjoy this build a heck of a lot and I never find myself wishing I were an Ele.

/2quid

(PS – the nerf that really hit hard was the foodbuff fix. Imma miss my omnom ghosts! but I was so OP with omnoms and this build; the moment I first nommered some berries I knew the nerfs were coming. I could smell them!)

strength sigil! enhanced performance! or, HGH! also, testing out fire sigil with the buff to air blast.
but, with strength sigil it is rdiculously easy to hit 20+ might stacks, also (edit) you ought to have a base 60% crit (80% w/ perma fury – soz, but medkit swapping is key).

Seetoo.9316:

Punkins.2087:

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

Surprise surprise!! Adding toolbelt damage on a build that is highly dependent on the toolbelt. Adding the rifle gap closer damage on a build that requires said gap closer. Whodathunk?

aydenunited.5729:

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

I honestly don’t understand why people keep saying this “FT … conditions”. What does the FT do with conditions that no other engg option can? The on crit traits are available to every kit/weapon. Is it that FT1 does 5 attacks per sec? Grenades do 6 attacks per sec.

are you kitten serious? you make it sound like each spec is a different profession all together…

“engie” is a “cc + condition” profession, each of its specs is centred around condition application coupled with power build for direct application of damage, grenades, ft, pistols, eg, toolkit, they ALL apply conds.

how is “what can ft do that another engie can’t” even an argument?

each build provides different ways of applying conds.

Skribulous.3521:

JohnDied.3476:

I think the damage it does is pretty reasonable. Wait no, the opposite.

I swear, I get more damage out of a grenade/bomb engi with cleric gear.

EDIT: Oh, and I get reliable burning with bomb kit.

I get more reliable burning with my RIFLE (property traited, of course, but still…).

FT is that sad.

then you must be doing something wrong.

FT1, Napalm, 33% Burn on crit, Air Blast (now increases burn duration by 2.5 seconds), Sigil of Fire (30% AoE burn on crit)
edit: I forgot Incendiary Ammo, cheers Punkins!

There are numerous ways to burn foes with the FT, if specced properly.

Grackleflint.4956:

Q: Is there a cooldown on activating kits?
A: Currently there aren’t any restrictions on when and how often an engineer can switch between kits, because many of the engineer’s kits tend to have a very narrow, specific effect.

http://www.arena.net/blog/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-engineer

lawl

the trait is not the ability to swap kits.

your ability to swap kits is still not hindered by anything but the small GCD on all abilities.

just because a single trait got fixed does not mean you cannot play your class. it means you cannot just spam KR procs as your offense.

I think their intent was clear.

This bug fix immediately negates the ability to proc the explosion from the dbl medkit proc from kit refinement. this was a known bug which people bragged about here on the forums, even offering it as tips for how to play.

so now that their workaround no longer works, a workaround which was being openly exploited to somehow account for our profession’s “lack” of versatility, kittens are mewling because they have to actually plan their rotations in a better paced, more meaningful way rather than “button mash” or play “keyboard calisthenics” or what have you.

you can still use the same combos you could use before. just not all at once.

google.3709:

Azimuth.7091:

1. my build s more tanker that nades
2 i dont see my build getting nerf
3 i still going on as a beast

play style is as important as the build you use, if your build is so good let us see it pm ingame we’ll meet up, if you can out DPS 100nades or outlive my full glasscannon engi i will give 10g!

besides, if you’re build isnt gettin nerfed is because no one uses it :| lol

why do you still think the FT is intended to do as much dmg as a glasscannon nade build?

the FT is a (pow based) bunker weapon with ridiculous cond output thanks to it’s high crit and 10 hits every few seconds. it is not meant to burst like nades or even out dps nades.

you were good up to where you said playstyle is everything … yes, good, we agree.

everything else you said sounds like “narf narf narf”

Merkenary.9860:

Penguin.5197:

The only problem I have with it is that Its not useable in the spvp meta. I mean I go down FAST with all the confusion applied to me. :/ I would really appreciate it if the flame jet itself was one attack, not every single little spark it does >.< cant do crap like that

I hope you mean retaliation it’s actually good vs confusion – 1 attack every 2 seconds vs 10 hits proccing retaliation.

Number 2 change is good number 3 not sure I see the point, but ok. Number 4 still on a way to long cool down for what it does. Number 5 have you looked at guardian weapons leap aoe blind plus damage low cool down. Number 5 should be a smoke field for 4 seconds or something or much much shorter cool down.

Though the F skill takes the cake 9 second burn on a 60 second cool down compared to so many other skills I can’t figure out why they think that’s justified

the change to FT#3 increases your overall dmg output by ensuring your foe stays burning, or anything stays burning.

Flame sigil just became a 100% must in the FT build for maximum output.

JohnDied.3476:

Okok. I’ll explain what I meant.

To the engineers who don’t care about the appearance they have (or the image they put forth) with a kit, the flamethrower is a subpar weapon in every way. Those engineers wan’t the flamethrower to be buffed so that we have a good reason to use it. Otherwise it’s just a waste of space and development time.

To the engineers who use the flamethrower because they like how they look with a flamethrower, the flamethrower is good enough because to them it serves it’s purpose, it looks good.

What I don’t understand is why every thread that tries to make people ask for a better flamethrower turns into this huge argument between the two groups?

Well, I lie. I do understand. The fact that we are attacking one aspect of the flamethrower makes the people who like another aspect think we’re attacking something they like, therefore they retaliate.

Anyway, I should say this then. If you say that the flamethrower is fine as a subpar weapon, why would you argue with someone who wants it to be a good weapon?
Wouldn’t improving the flamethrower for the first group be beneficial for the second?

where do you get this notion that people defend the FT because it “looks cool”?

looks have nothing to do with it. it could be a solid grey cone without animation, who cares? functionality is what is key, and as a CC/cond weapon, the FT is incredibly functional and versatile and powerful.

no, it is not as high dps as other specs, no one ahs ever claimed it was, they have claimed the dmg is good enough given everything else it does.

you are once again arguing the “have the cake and eat it too” style of game play.

how about they just give us all 160 trait points, and remove all cooldowns from the game. that’ll make it more interesting.

darp.

Penguin.5197:

The only problem I have with it is that Its not useable in the spvp meta. I mean I go down FAST with all the confusion applied to me. :/ I would really appreciate it if the flame jet itself was one attack, not every single little spark it does >.< cant do crap like that

confusion is king, and will be for a long time. you gotta be on top of cond removal.

Daigle.8497:

Nakoda…

I’m not sure how exploity the kit refinement thing was even before the nerf, and it’s not like people play 4-kit to abuse the procs on the kit refinement, either. The most useful option was the 2x condition cleansing from FT/EG, but even those had their own cooldowns.

The other most powerful one is the melee-range Grenade barrage, and our box of nails, but even they have their cooldowns.

Even landing all 4 in one go: how exactly is that overpowered?

Mesmers don’t really have a GCD on their shatter skills that’s quite as steep(.25 seconds is a workaround so they can’t use all 4 shatters on the same 3 clones/phantasm)
Elementalists, although their Evasive arcana has global cooldown, their elemental attunement does not. They can theoretically do a full cycle for buffs.

Thieves can drop caltrops all the time whenever they want. No cooldowns (except for endurance regen etc)

I do appreciate the buffs from Anet, but.. did they really have to nerf the bugs that are in our favor first?

nakoda.4213:

I see. (@work still, so haven’t had a chance to play yet) but my commentary stands, they fixed an exploit (4x insta-KD procs) and buffed three kits.

this is a good day for engies.

im not speaking about other classes, im speaking about engineer, the question as it is put is this: do you honestly think it was intended to be able to use: box of nails, grenade barrage, heal kit (twice! a bug often bragged about), and a full condition cleanse all within less than 3 seconds?

op or not (a point which is irrelevant, like it or not), do you honestly think that is the intended use?

I don’t.

im often accused of playing the ignorance is bliss card, but the truth is that ignorance is the willing act of refusing to see a perspective other than the one you already have.

stop being ignorant, start being receptive and adaptive.

and for kitten sake, stop ignoring the notion that this is a game, and there are many ways to play it with enjoyment. they fixed a bug that reduced the efficacy of a single trait that had the potential to be exploited. I never once said that everyone who uses KR exploits.

your inductive reasoning is flawed.

Except that I don’t find myself handicapped while using it. ever.

below par, sub par, lol you kittens are fanatics with your min/maxing.

when I say FT rocks, it’s because I play with, enjoy playing with it, and never find myself wishing “gee I wish I could be doing as much dmg as XYZ spec”

when I say FT rocks it’s because my time in sPvP is fun, successful, and I enjoy it.

when I say FT rocks it’s because it does. And none of your spread sheeting, theory crafting, min maxing nonsense mewling will change that.

Seetoo.9316:

FT5 is 1 time use melee blind on a melee kit that has no mobility, making it only useful against slow attacking mobs. It does nothing against the plethora of multi-hit nukes available in the game.

FT3 is an UNRELIABLE knick back BECAUSE it’s a cone.

Now this is ignoring the fact that FT1 is a melee ability that does HALF melee damage (the change to FT2 solidifies the FT as a melee kit). Add them all together and you get the conclusion that FT is still not worth the utility slot

ever actually traited and used FT? doesn’t seem like it. btw, two minutes of theory crafting with traits in the mists doesn’t count.

I’ve got around 100 FT hours logged on my engie. it rocks. sorry you don’t like it but your opinion is only opinion.

popping 4x KR procs nearly instantly was a broken aspect of the trait. if you seriously and genuinely felt that it was working as intended then you were deluding yourself.

you don’t have to like it, but KR is now functioning properly. No more button mashing, now you have to plan, judge, and time your combos differently and not rely on a great big button in the sky to do the work for you.

all I’ve ever played in spvp is FT. it’s always been lots of fun. can’t wait to get home and check out the buffs.

I see. (@work still, so haven’t had a chance to play yet) but my commentary stands, they fixed an exploit (4x insta-KD procs) and buffed three kits.

this is a good day for engies.

so they equalized the CD of all kits to 10 second and removed the ability to drop 4 kits all at once.

sounds like kittens are mewling that they can’t rofl foes by button mashing any more. I mean I’ve read numerous times that people felt they were just mashing buttons with KD hoping to hit something, and now it is timed and reliable and there every 10 seconds.

on top of an exploit fix (which you all seem to call a nerf) they buffed 3 other kits. and you still complain.

I can’t wait to get home and leviticize some people. FT buffs! yarp!

Naioby.3705:

Oh and if you say, why the hell would I choose that kit refinement? its only 180 radius!, and then I would say, “condition removal ever 10 secs”, then you would say, but what about 409? I would say, yeah son, that’s a nice cleaner for your toilet, but I get my kit refinement + med kit’s “Drop Antidote” and I’m ready to go, while at the same time using traits for something else. Where’s the inexperience, son?

quoting for posterity, kekekittens!

Esplen.3940:

nakoda.4213:

Your mother’s IQ is slow low that she doesn’t even know how to crossthread a micronfluxcapacitor multiphasic unit with a simple dimatrix array power inversion unit equipped with a subsonic alpha wave modulation circuit.

I mean, how human do you have to be not to realize that a simple recalibration of the carbohypothermic intake valve release frees up the injection array subprocessing unit so that it can combocalculate the exact reverberation of the magic stream inversion coil.

::eyeroll::

what a dolt.

Why crossthread it when you can simply multicrossthread it. Also the dimatrix array power inversion has been outdated by the new trimatrix array power inversion which has an exponentially better power inversion capacity. You don’t even need the subsonic alpha stream inversion coil at all, in fact it was proven to slow down the process by tenfold with the new trimatrix array.

There is no need to combocalculate, that’s just wasting your iterations. Simply take a quantum nucleic phasitron and adjust it to entwine into the array. You can get rid of the entire coil and intake valve.

Seriously… who taught you this stuff?

Your mother did.

But at least SHE knows that a trimatrix array is incompatible with a decahedron infusion dynamo which is WHY the subsonic alpha stream inversion coil needs to be linked up to the megaflux protocore of the temporal energy capacitors.

Seriously, the quantum nucleic phasitron is untested technology bordering on mere MECHANICS. We covered that in first level progeny class. At least your mother’s IQ isn’t so low as to miss THAT.

You might as well swap the unitron projection processor for introflux capacitration multiplier. We all got taught in second level that combocalculation takes no more than a 0.00003812312432^16 nanosecond longer to iterate the output figures than a intake-less power inversion unit. Why remove something that frees up magic for the thermokenetic hydraulic system?

Your mother’s IQ is slow low that she doesn’t even know how to crossthread a micronfluxcapacitor multiphasic unit with a simple dimatrix array power inversion unit equipped with a subsonic alpha wave modulation circuit.

I mean, how human do you have to be not to realize that a simple recalibration of the carbohypothermic intake valve release frees up the injection array subprocessing unit so that it can combocalculate the exact reverberation of the magic stream inversion coil.

::eyeroll::

what a dolt.

I have also never ever been denied a group as an engineer.

I have been denied admittance as a banner warrior. (one of the reasons I switched)

gw2lfg is nice and all, but hardly representative.

“priceless” lol, you say that like your personal life is effected by what happens in a video game.

I offered to be corrected, and I was, and to the benefit of everyone because now there is substantive evidence behind your point. Self righteousness does not suit you, because you use as much anecdote as I do.

In all openess, I don’t slave over the math because I don’t care about it. I play, have fun, and never run in to problems while I play. I rock the FT with pride, skill, and I have fun doing it. you seem hell bent on hating your time spent in game. good on you.

And here out of the game you feel the need to kick sand rather than talk.

LOL. You sure showed me.

step 1: apply incendiary ammo toolbelt skill (3sec burn next 3 attacks)
step 2: fire rifle #2 (5 shots, one second)
step 3: take a screen shot of burn debuff tooltip.

if it says 7-8 seconds and not three, I will stand corrected.

Blacklight.2871:

nakoda.4213:

bull kitten.

A 1sec, 450 burn on each tick would actually balance the auto attack’s dps quite well as well as make logical sense that you are set on fire regardless of how long you stay in the jet stream, additionally requiring competent players to avoid the attack. in this way, regardless of how long you stay in the attack, you burn for 1sec after.

That’s 10s of burn (10 ticks @ 1s burn/ea), for a 2.25s (accurate?), channel. That’s approximately 20s of burn for every two FT blasts. How is that not OP for a completely unmodified, skill 1 auto-attack?

If I’m not calculating that right, let me know where I’m off the rails.

you are off the rails because each tick is less than a second, and it only refreshes duration it doesn’t “add” duration. this is why it is so important to make sure that a cond duration build achieves the full extra second (or 0.65 for some conds, as cottage has pointed out).

As such, if a foe stands in the fire for the full 10 ticks, they still end up with only 3 full seconds of burning, not 10.

Thz.7569:

I’m not sure why everyone wants more burning. It becomes redundant in overall play and the FT’s potential as a power weapon is so much more attractive in my eyes. We already have a plethora of condi potential, why want more?

Because FT is a crit/cond weapon that supplements the lack of Explosives tree in many of its builds by applying 6-7 stacks of might with Juggernaut. Burn is also one of the best conds in the game. A full FT build requires an investment of 30 points in Firearms and 20 points in Alchemy, leaving 20 points to spread around. Certainly you can put all 20 points in to Explosives for 200 power and 200 cond duration (the full dps FT build), but since the FT is actually a PRE weapon, it finds more dps increase in the Tools tree with flat crit dmg increase. That said, 10 points in Explosives for incendiary powder is an amazing trait for the FT, so you have to choose wisely.

The non PvE reason for the extra burn wishes is because in pvp, opponents dodge, and can avoid the bulk of flame jet’s damage, but it makes little sense to us why a foe can take 1 second of flamethrower fire without being burned, rather they would have to be dumb enough to stand in the fire for 2.25 seconds to get a 1 second burn applied.

the logic behind the extra burn request is to have a 1 sec burn apply to every tick such that any foe doding out is left burning for one second regardless of when they manage to get out of the fire. it isn’t necessarily for having “lots of burns” .. remember that even if a foe stood still for the full 2.25 FT#1 attack, a 1 sec burn applied to every tick would still only result in 3 seconds of total burn.

Kamahl.3621:

Killyox.3950:

Kamahl.3621:

People are assuming burn on every tick would be OP.

What if it was a 0.25 second burn on every tick?

Would result in no burn because it needs to be 1 full sec. Same with +condition duration, you need to gain full new ticks otherwise it is useless (with exception to control condis like immobilize, cripple or only one dmg condi, confusion that benefits from all +dur)

bleed burn need + full ticks

You’re correct about condition duration needing to hit a whole new second to apply an extra tick of damage. You’re incorrect about it not dealing damage though – the flamethrower does 5 ticks per second, that’s a hit every 0.2 seconds. 0.25 > 0.2, so the burning would stay on as long as you’re channeling, guaranteeing 2 ticks if you hit most of them. This is the same way the Godforged Flamethrowers in CoF work – they apply several small ticks of burning that add up fairly quick.

burning is not damage over time, it is direct damage per tick. the condition “Burning” does not behave in the same manner as FT#1 Flame Jet.

Flame jet is a scaling DD attack that increases dmg for every tick applied, and each tick is independently targetted.

“Burning” is a per-pulse DD condition that requires a full pulse to apply its damage and is target dependent. There is no 25% burn condition application, it is all or nothing.

also, we aren’t godforged npc’s, we behave differently.

Killyox.3950:

Kamahl.3621:

People are assuming burn on every tick would be OP.

What if it was a 0.25 second burn on every tick?

Would result in no burn because it needs to be 1 full sec. Same with +condition duration, you need to gain full new ticks otherwise it is useless (with exception to control condis like immobilize, cripple or only one dmg condi, confusion that benefits from all +dur)

bleed burn need + full ticks

correct, and this is because conds apply dmg at the end of the tick, not the start of it.

google: yes, the over all DPS is lower on the FT than, say, the 100 nades build, or perhaps even a rifle/turret build. this is not a surprise, however.

every profession in the game has builds which are higher or lower dps, and are more useful in some areas of the game than others.

i urge you, and encourage you, to stop thinking of each kit build as a different profession. they are just trait specs within the profession.

(i leveled engie solely with nades, didn’t need grenadier at ALL, so nades were an awesome leveling build, yet people will tell you here nades are USELESS without grenadier … which is wrong)

i’ve never claimed the FT is better dps than nades, in fact, my experience of ~1250 dps with FT1 is pretty much on the mark. players like Phineus Phae do considerably more dps with the FT than I do.

Doing map explore with the FT (essentially “leveling up” again) I am having zero issues with ANYTHING I encounter, so I can’t imagine it being kittenty there either. Juggernaut is the cake topper, not the cake.

that’s a neat idea i haven’t heard yet (at least not put in quite that way);

equipping a kit (in its utility slot) replaces the F slots with the kit skills rather than supplying secondary/supplementary pseudo-utilities.

Although, that would make things pretty frenetic during combat, and perhaps a bit overpowered since you’d essentially be equipping two fully realized weapon sets at the same time. why not just have pistols in 1-5 and rifle in F slot then too? (see what I mean?)

Neat idea though!

From a game perspective, though, re: pistol/rifle swaps … the swap key (~ by default) is also the drop bundle key, and is for every class, so when we equip kits, it becomes the drop bundle key. something tells me the benevolent anet designers are having issues with conflicts between kits, bundles, and swaps, and so opted to remove weapon swaps in our class since we get kit swapping that is only bound to the 1sec GCD, and they didn’t want to bother resolving conflicts between kits and other bundles. just a guess, though.

google.3709:

nakoda.4213:

google.3709:

nakoda.4213:

google.3709:

Flame thrower used to be an amazing weapon if you had the chance to play beta, but after several updates, it became a broken kit, the only reason most people play it is because of the flashy animation and high hit count but otherwise, its a low damage kit with very unreliable targeting and it lacks utilities like most kits making it basacaly the a flashy animation and a knockback

no.

would you please elaborate :P

no. there are a host of posts by myself and others that refute every point you make, I am not going to regurgitate them again.

lol ? okay then, im just pointing out the facts :P weather you choose to be blinded or not is up to you altho, im very curious because i used to love flame thrower, and maybe there is something missing, so if you’re willing to show me ingame that flamethrower is as viable for any other kits it would be awesome

fact: you haven’t pointed out any facts, just some opinion that is running around the forums.

try reading some of the other FT threads where numerous posters both venerate and denigrate the FT. lots of info.

i’ll summarize for you:

things that actually need fixing:
- misses on stationary objects.

that’s about it, actually. everything else are QoL changes. The kit is not broken, it is not useless, and it is used by many people (myself included) on a daily basis.

there are some solid discussions on things we’d like to see changed (like extra burns on FT 1, mebbe a longer psuedo-stun on FT 3 so that FT 2 detonates in time [although, if you FT 2 first there is no problem], and perhaps a combo field on FT 5), but elsewise the actual consensus is that FT is pretty good and fun to use.

the rest is noise.

google.3709:

nakoda.4213:

google.3709:

Flame thrower used to be an amazing weapon if you had the chance to play beta, but after several updates, it became a broken kit, the only reason most people play it is because of the flashy animation and high hit count but otherwise, its a low damage kit with very unreliable targeting and it lacks utilities like most kits making it basacaly the a flashy animation and a knockback

no.

would you please elaborate :P

no. there are a host of posts by myself and others that refute every point you make, I am not going to regurgitate them again.

Kamahl.3621:

nakoda.4213:

it only stacks duration

That’s the entire point of the suggestion. They stand in the channel, they get a 2.5s burn on a 2.25s cast. With the toolbelt it’d make up for the time something isn’t burning between channels. So, 2 ticks of burning damage if they take the entire blast, with leeway for 2 misses.

you are arguing the same point with me, I was confirming not refuting you.

3-Rs.

google.3709:

Flame thrower used to be an amazing weapon if you had the chance to play beta, but after several updates, it became a broken kit, the only reason most people play it is because of the flashy animation and high hit count but otherwise, its a low damage kit with very unreliable targeting and it lacks utilities like most kits making it basacaly the a flashy animation and a knockback

no.

Phineas Poe.3018:

One extra detail you’re really neglecting to mention here is that Lightning Whip only has a range of 300 to Flame Jet’s 450. It can also only hit a maximum of three targets; Flame Jet doesn’t discriminate.

actually it does discriminate, and I was put in my place the other day with this correction. tested it later to confirm, but FT#1 indeed only hits a max three targets per tick.

(although, the rest of the naysaying I endured is still moot because the damage is additive, not multiplicative, so whether tick 3 hits mobs ABC or XYZ and tick 4 hits mobs DXF or EBW doesnt matter, the ticks still hits for the same amount, so there is no DPS "loss" when sweeping through a group as the others were trying to claim)

backpacks are tricky because you need a lvl 10 white item to xmute with. afaik there are no lvl 10 white back slot items. the quaggan route is your best bet.

kitten quaggans. i hates them.

Kamahl.3621:

People are assuming burn on every tick would be OP.

What if it was a 0.25 second burn on every tick?

well, not to split hairs, but why? 1 tick .. it ticks burning damage, it’s not as though the FT burn stacks damage, it only stacks duration (ie, in our fantasy world, each tick would just apply a new 1 sec burn, so whenever foe manages to get out da’ way, they are left with a 1sec -- one tick -- burn). and, since dmg is applied at the end of condition pulses (otherwise we wouldnt need to finangle with getting a full second out of duration stats) it wouldn’t matter until a full second elapsed anyway.

that is ... at MOST, if the foe remains for the entire 2sec 10 tick cast, they leave with a staggering total of 3 seconds of burn.

I don’t see this being OP.

but, neither here nor there since this is all fantasy football.

bull kitten.

A 1sec, 450 burn on each tick would actually balance the auto attack’s dps quite well as well as make logical sense that you are set on fire regardless of how long you stay in the jet stream, additionally requiring competent players to avoid the attack. in this way, regardless of how long you stay in the attack, you burn for 1sec after.

I leveled engie completely with a ’nades build, switched to ft at 80 because it’s awesome.

the counter that "any class / spec can farm" does not refute that the ft excels at farming, it confirms my claim, a claim that refutes the misinformation that "anyone telling you ft excels at anything is lying or wrong".

the ft excels at many things, just like many engie specs do.

when I leveled warrior, it was gs ftw, but soon as I hit 80 I went banner/warhorn/heals.

every class has potential to excel at a great variety of things, not the least of which is engie.

yep, worked like a charm.

received a PM as well about this.

learned my new thing for the day!

/dustshands

im outta here!