Guild Wars 2

Yeah, when it comes to variety, good luck. The major thing that I like about GW2 is what clams people into “builds”. There is only but so much you can carry at any given time.

As long as that is the case, there will always be some build that someone put together that outshines other builds in its usefulness.

You have a limited combination of options, as does everyone else. With that said, if one build is powerful, then another needs to be powerful to counter it.

Therefore the first build pushes down any build that doesnt counter that build. Thus a meta is formed.

It will always be that way with gw2 due to its core mechanic, not that its a bad thing, but its the way it is.

And most builds right now have some variety to them, one trait is changed out here and there, a variance over the meta but still holding most of the meta ideas.

I dont think you will see GW2 get away from that as long as it limits its skill bar and traitlines. With that said, I still dont think its a bad thing.

Well people are having a hard time with this because they are looking at one class and its boost that it will receive.

I was talking to some other today.

While d/d ele might get a boost somehow, imagine an s/d thief that now is critical strikes, acro and trickery master. The s/d damage will increase greatly while maintaining its tankiness, thus a boost from another class is now countering that d/d.

But thats based all on current game mechanics which I think will be changed greatly anyway. To us really what will happen is all up in the air and speculation.

One thing is for sure, new balance issues will result and Anet will have to rebalance a lot of things.

Well first they are going to boost base attributes to 1000. Also they will boost the amulet itself.

Also you will be running three trait lines and be able to master all three.

So for instance, that d/d ele will now be 00666.

I think it will open up more available to you and current meta builds wont apply. Its going to change the meta completely so trying to make sense of it with current meta wont work.

Would be possible to have matchmaking also focus on team comps maybe. Im just throwing this out there as it might be a challenge. But it always concerns me when I get matched up in a team with say 3 thieves on the team.

I guess you could define a comp with some variance to cover something out of the meta. It might also help pugs against premades.

It just seems when soloquing while player skill might be equaled out, the team comps are so wacked out that individual skill doesnt matter.

Also given new specializations, the definition of DPS and Condi and so on could easily be standardized being the trait lines will no longer add to attributes and the only attribute difference would be the sigils and amulets.

The only downfall to this is that obviously if Im seeing three thieves on a team, then its because thief population is high. Which under a team comp matchmaking system would make individual classes/builds have varying queue times.

RoRo.8270:

nightblood.7910:

You know, to me all this is to blame on the idea of win/loss ratios vs player performance. I keep saying this in other threads, but it still doesnt make sense to me how individual players are judged on win/loss when one person cant decide that on a match made team.

Of all my losses (right now Im only playing unranked) I end up either top scorer or second to top. They are still loses for me though. In those I question, what else could I have done to better my personal stats in that?

Thus I think individual player win//loss ratios mean nothing and if they meant less to individual players then the match up’s against premades would be less of a problem.

It would be more about how well you played that match personally than whether the team you ended up with won or lost.

Just my 2.

sorry to burst your bubble but score doesn’t mean anything. I think score should be hidden until the match is over. I’ve seen people call others out cause their score wasn’t as high as them.

Well Score def means something and a lot to the right class that should be racking up the points, and I do play a thief which is starting to make sense. I should be the top scorer.

But you are right. Score based leaderboard excludes that bunker guard holding down mid for the whole match and not scoring much.

Also I would never call someone out, it just seems Im not being matched up well in unranked now. It might be because I failed miserably on guard, but now, 1v1’s in matches seem rather easy (I play s/d not d/p so its not backstab or HS). I can tell a lot of the players I go up against or that are on my team are rather new to playing (newer than me. Im not an old timer) so I end up just having my way with the map.

I mean when you play forest and I have to backtrack to home because no one took it immediately. While Ill take it myself, holding down home against 2 or 3 is not my specialty. Well thats one of the many examples of, why am I matched up with these guys?

Then on the other team, when my matches are these ridiculously blowout matches, I ask myself again, why am I in a match with these guys.

Believe me, Im not blowing my own horn here, I very well might be out matched in high tier play, but it just seems like Im not matched up well.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

nightblood.7910:

Of all my losses (right now Im only playing unranked) I end up either top scorer or second to top. They are still loses for me though. In those I question, what else could I have done to better my personal stats in that?

Thus I think individual player win//loss ratios mean nothing and if they meant less to individual players then the match up’s against premades would be less of a problem.

It would be more about how well you played that match personally than whether the team you ended up with won or lost.

Just my 2.

Player performance is impossible to judge under any system without having actual people spectating each match.

If someone holds a 2v1 for 10 minutes on the far point without killing either of them, he will gain no personal points from it but is being incredibly useful to to his team by allowing them to outnumber across the rest of the map. How can you judge this under any system?

Now compare this to a thief that runs round decapping points then leaving again and using heartseeker on low targets and then leaving those targets as soon as they go down. He’ll automatically get top points because he contributed to all the kills and point captures/defences regardless of how good the other players were.

True.

Which brings me back to my original idea of not playing ranked unless Im on a premade. Because well, luck of who and what you end up with makes all the difference and the leaderboard really means nothing to solo querers.

You know, to me all this is to blame on the idea of win/loss ratios vs player performance. I keep saying this in other threads, but it still doesnt make sense to me how individual players are judged on win/loss when one person cant decide that on a match made team.

Of all my losses (right now Im only playing unranked) I end up either top scorer or second to top. They are still loses for me though. In those I question, what else could I have done to better my personal stats in that?

Thus I think individual player win//loss ratios mean nothing and if they meant less to individual players then the match up’s against premades would be less of a problem.

It would be more about how well you played that match personally than whether the team you ended up with won or lost.

Just my 2.

I personally dont think solo queue will be fixed ever as long as it is based on win/loss rating for match making at all. (unless its not but from what I can tell that and time away are highly part of it.)

I said in another post I would like to see avg points per match and have matchmaking part of this.

Because if you are a solo queue runner that really is your personal performance and says a lot more about you as a player than win/loss ratios.

IE (I know weve all been there) scoring some extraordinary amount of points on a losing team. What does the loss reflect on you?

And from the looks of things even the leaderboard is on win/loss ratios. That doesnt tell me anything about that player specifically other than luck of the draw may have been on their side or they have a great team they are on.

I am fairly new and jumped in ranked for a minute and then jumped back out as I needed some more work. Still none the less, it just doesnt make sense to me how win/loss says anything about a specific player. Now a team, win/loss ratios are very tell tale of that team, but has nothing to say about individual players.

Personally, I think courtyard is boring. I think it cuts off the better fights found in conquest and just leaves 5v5 zerg fight. It also is the map requiring a very specific comp to win. Ive been in tons of 10v10’s and 15 v 15’s and can easily put to gether something to win this map, but in matchmaking its so hit or miss if you get a good comp for this type of fight, I never pick it.

I dont WvW anymore because Im tired of that playstyle.

I consider it and skyhammer just gimick maps as they arent even used in tourney’s I believe.

Well I say this really makes the engi think when using a turret. I mean come on guys, Ive unfortunately landed in matches where as soon as you see an engi, the first thing Supply Drop and now you have to deal with all this stuff that doesnt die quick enough.

Its like the I win button, where it would be better to see them have to duke it out for a while first, or place a turret at the right time to get the clutch win out of it.

I dont think this will kill turrets in PvP just make it more of a tactical application to use them.

Use them at the right time, not just drop a bunch on point and stand back.

As a thief, I can say a supply drop plus thumpers, plus Rockets, I have no chance what so ever other than leave.

Now, Shortbow them and make you fight, thus putting you in a position to better use those turrets.

Can someone explain what statistics this uses please?

I know this has been looked at to death, but it seems like win/loss is the key element of sPvP and in soloqueue’s well thats just not fair.

In team queue it makes sense, but in solo queue it really should be about personal performance and not a win or loss.

IE scoring 245 points on a losing team should put your rating up as though you were on the winning team and team you up with better players and matches.

Obviously Im fairly new so excuse me if Im wrong in how this rating system works, but from the looks of things win/loss is the major factor, which when solo queue really means nothing.

Honestly, I would also love to see an avg points per game statistic as well as that really shows personal performance over anything else.

yeah but when you are immobed, and you have a split second to get out of a bunch of aoe, might as well have went on CD cause youre dead because a pebble was in the way of your shadowstep.

I personally feel like the map was too slow paced from normal PvP. Like everything was moving at a snails pace even though there was so much available to do, it was rather a slow thing.

The trebs seemed useless.

So I was wrong about this community, sorry.

It seems the thief nerfs have pigeon holed it into an HS spamming, stealth abusing class.

For some reason everything about thief but the above has been nerfed to high heavens.

I did level a thief and have been playing s/d only to find that most of the videos I see are old videos pre s/d nerf.

But any build not using SA trait line doesnt have a huge amount of stealth.

I will say, shadowsteps should have an evade aspect to them. I find it odd that I can shadow return/infiltrator return out of direction of a projectile and it follow me. (Possibly even a .25 stealth to it to kick their target).

And something needs to happen with AI right after stealth. Like engi AI, ranger AI , and necro AI, (yes and even rockdog) should be just as confused as the player after stealth.

No Im not the best thief in game, but still none the less.

SoulSin.5682:

nightblood.7910:

I mean whats the big deal if guards stun on block?

The answer to this question is pretty much the whole reason no one is taking you seriously.

You don’t even know your own class deep enough to understand the consequences in game balance of the suggestion you just gave while ranting about thiefs (which is a class you are supposedly NOT have a hard time to kill).

Btw, a medi guard problem isn’t P/D thiefs, their problems are condi builds.
A Condi Necro or a condi Engineer will kill faster than a P/D thief, any day. And you can see then 24h/7d.

Lastly, I don’t see this as a Thief hating topic. Its just another stealth hater topic.
If thiefs didn’t had stealth we would prolly be arguing about some PU mesmer that killed 4×1.

LOL thats hilariously funny,

Read it again and understand the context of what I was saying. Of course that many stuns on block would be OP thats the point I was making. It was sarcasm.

Of course that wouldnt work in this game, but now all of a sudden something OP that there are just as many option to not fight said guard, and just let them get away with no problems, its not duels and not OS and well that fighting as nothing to do with the game play. Hey why not. I mean hey staff eles, they need…… ohh wait lets just give them a weapon swap to switch from d/d to staff at will. I menan what could possibly go wrong there?

Sebrent.3625:

The only thing I’ve ever been able to think up when my mind wonders to this topic is this …

If the player limit for a map drops from say 75 to 50 … and some of the servers still have more than 50 players on the map, the first X players to die can’t respawn on that map. This would be akin to your side no longer having the resources to support that number of reinforcements.

That being said, I could see that being a rage-inducing user experience at times.

Yeah this would deplete guild raids horribly. Make group roaming completely useless and only cater to the zerg mentality. It would destroy any organized attempts and leave everything as pug zerg only.

Now if you said that if they were not resed in a specific time period, that might be a little more doable but still frustrating.

I personally think bandwagoning is the main culprit of most complaints in WvW. Unfortunately its human nature and a very hard thing to stop because people want to be on the winning server.

How many times do I have to say. Im not complaining about medi guards.

Once again, check the video I posted.

Youre obviously isolating this to me. Im not complaining about me on a medi guard. Im looking at the fact that P/D thieves are so overly powered outnumberd.

Secondly you continue to put words in my mouth. Who said I shoudl be able to 1v2 thieves and just beat them? I didnt say that. Youre kinda trying to figure out what Im saying vs see what Im saying.

Also all my tele’s require a target.

Highly conditional to the environment and with the amount of animals and NPC’s in sPvP it really isnt that good of an escape method but only attack with no way out.

Of which I dont really mind, I either kill or get killed its the risk of playing this class that I take. Thus the high risk high reward mentality.

As a matter of fact, my latest challenge Ive taken on is fitting a zerk guard in the front line of a raid. So much less than roaming or sPvP in the first place.

Yep I run around no stealth what so ever, no speed and carefully placing myself as close to the front line as possible without dying and dropping bombs on the enemy front line with this squishy little thing. Its fun.

Needs some work though. Those necro bombs are rutheless to a medi.

I jsut neither see it as right or fair that there is a class in this game that can even do what that video shows while others cannot.

Its the same as the old perma sins in gw1. I quit playing gw1 because of that build and did not even buy gw2 at first because of how Anet caters to that class. And Im considering taking my money and time to another game because of the same thing as then. It ruins games, it ruins the fun, except for those who play those cheap classes.

It just drives me up the wall that they even exist with those abilities.

I tell you what, I say guards should have stuns on block with no cd.

Now, you can see aegis, so just dont attack guards.

And if they put up their blocks and just leave them alone and let them go on their way.

I say why not? Obviously it shouldnt be a problem, you dont have to fight them and them getting away because well they just stunned the 10 man team with one skill long enough for them to adios out of dodge shouldnt be a problem for anyone.

I mean whats the big deal if guards stun on block?

Alex.5283:

I don’t see whats the problem. Medi guards should be able to kill thieves easily without even trying (only if they play power) because guards can do damage output with smite condition along with greatsword and air/fire sigil procs, easily taking out over 50% of a thiefs hp with one burst (applies to non dire thieves).

As for the complaint of the lack of protection and invul… that’s just you being bad. I know some guardian from Jade Quarry who can fight conditions builds with power medi zerker build with ease. First you need to know what spec the thief is running, thats how you decide what method of fighting you’ll use. If the thief is running sword dagger, you need to use your blocks carefully and predict when is he going to daze you. It’s how thieves fight other thieves after all, experience to evade their hits and do burst damage. Same idea when you vs other classes, you need to play different tactics depending on their build and spec.

Of course, the good thieves would take a while to kill, if not be unable to kill them at all (run away). However, thats the thief’s mechanic though, they are build advantageously for 1 v 1, where experience matters the most. I’m pretty sure you should know that all bad thiefs will die easily to everything else, while a good thief can manage 1 v 1 easily. If you can’t win with medi guard (a hard counter to thief) then it’s an issue of your experience in playing a thief. If a thief is playing d/d, and he stealths with full hp, you can assume hes going to try to backstab you instantly, if he’s not in good shape with his health bar, he’ll likely wait for 3 seconds then backstab you to regen hp.

And yes, based on the good guardian’s I know, and from what I’ve summed up, Guardians are the strongest in 1 v 1 when it comes to power vs power. You just need to time your blocks and kite depending on what you vs and then apply pressure to them with high dps. You should go to Tier 1 servers and learn how to run away because the guardians I know can outrun thieves.

Yeah Ive stated a million times, Im not discussing the 1v1 between a thief and a guardian. Yeah its rare I have a problem with a 1v1 against a power thief, unless Im ambushed by two of which I never saw coming and at that point am in perm immob, dazed and obliterated fairly quickly.

Of which having an ability to reveal that stealth would have changed those fights to likely me still losing, but not without a good fight.

But once again power thief vs medi guard is a very isolated conversation to a bigger picture where stealth is abused heavily in the thief class.

There are alot of condi classes out there, engineers I dont get enough fight time with them, but regardless, I keep seeing what I could have done better in that fight.

P/D there is no answer other than the capability of revealing stealth.

Or condi’s get pushed down to the point that they cant overtake power.

Or complete armor sets get changed drastically that would mess up so much more than just a P/D thief.

What Im saying is, stealth counters will not make power thieves unplayable and would fix the obviously broken P/D thief and not affect the rest of the condi classes in game.

Yeah if you isolate this to power thief vs medi guard, there is no problem other than two power thieves are ridiculously overpowered. But thats a hard argument to sell and I dont bother with it.

While many power classes argue that condi uses a different mechanic that lacks skill, I dont partake in that myself and consider them valid. Therefore some drastic changes to condi will affect far more than a p/d thief.

It affects engi’s mesmers, rangers, warriors and so on. So I dont argue the condi problem, I argue the obvious difference between those condi classes and theif condi classes, stealth, no cd, no cd penalties, all of which make the p/d build so overpowered.

And while a nerf to plex, dire or anything that builds a condi class will eat all other condi classes, a counter (not a nerf) to stealth will not.

I mean for real come on, stealth cant deal with out a counter to it. Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1781525225&feature=iv&src_vid=sfB0yXm35s8&v=2QVy_C-Z0-k

Yeah I kind of agree here, but Im pretty sure the devs tend to want to push condi up as viable due to the power mentality that has pretty much run the game. On the other side of that, condi is really starting to overtake power.

If they drop condi too hard, then it doesnt produce enough damage fast enough to overtake burst power, its going to be interesting how they balance it.

For those who mistook my point in explaining how a medi guard manages to survive and actually be considered one of the best 1v1 toons despite not having any of the advantages a thief has, I wasnt complaining about medi guard. I play it everyday.

I dont play necros, because well I think they are too weak and need some better 1v1 skills.

I was just pointing out that without any thief skills and a whole slew of counters to our best defenses, were still able to be considered one of the best 1 v1 classes.

Yet somehow at the mention of a possible counter to a thief’s defenses “it will make the thief unplayable..”

Narkodx.1472:

Nothing like a Thief QQ thread

Yes they have become rather common havent they? Interesting that something that common is just considered crying vs hey maybe with this many complaints commonly occurring, there might be an actual problem.

I have to say, I keep hearing that the thief class will be unplayable if there is significant counter to stealth or any thing it does for that matter.

I play a mediguard.

Were squishy as can be. I run at best 2.6K AC and Ive even reduced my health back down to at best 15K.

Slow as molasses. If we take speed from traveler runes we give up a ton of power that we get from other runes.

Our skills are probably the most telegraphed in game. You can see agies.

Our teleports are not half as able as thieves.

We have no stealth at all.

We actually have cooldowns on our weapons and we are affected by chill and interrupts.

Two protection’s in any given fight.

One invul for a few seconds that we cant do anything else but run through stuff with.

We dont have half the CC’s available to thieves.

We cant do half the damage in a single hit that thieves are capable of.

Have no where close to the evasion skills thieves have.

Our best defense are blocks and blinds and well this is the number of counters to our defenses.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

From every single class.

Yet, I still find a way to be significant in this game, kill more than get killed, and play the heck out of it.

I keep hearing how if one of these things are changed on a thief it will be unplayable, yet we manage to play without half of it every single day.

I can say this for you. WvW is like a double edged sword. Others might have had different experiences than I have, but Ive been in a guilds that were really serious and well I heard more ridicule than fun as I was just learning ele or some other new class.

On the other side, Ive been in guilds where the drivers are really good, but they are less demanding of their guild. This makes for a fun time, but a kittene.

Ive also been in guilds where it was uplevel time if we were not doing anything serious.

A lot of it is the guild youre in. So far I personally like the guild I am in now. Nothing majorly serious and a lot of fun, good driver (I hate the idea of driving myself.) but comps are almost never right because there is no restrictions on what you bring to the table, though I have never tried to bring an uplevel to that table.

antonbalboa.7280:

I saw some things in this post:

Someone claimed scaling is “not as good as in PvP”, well, PvP has no scaling at all, a level 2 ranger will have exactly same stats than a lvl 80 ranger on the same build

….

Really? (as in why did you feel the need to go there)

I guess this is a frame of reference statement, but as I use PvE stats as a frame of reference for my toons and that is what they really are, then they are scaled in sPvP.

ie. Level 2 ranger is definitely scaled up from its base stats in PvE when entering sPvP.

Regardless, its not the same as in sPvP and youre not as formidable and can be detrimental to a guild raid working on limited numbers and one person going down can mean a wipe.

Yeah I could have done without it. Which is good because I needed a break from playing anyway. Been playing too much as it is. Thank you Anet for forcing a break for me.

(And I do really mean this in the most sincere way, I really need to not play this game for a day.)

@ Zero Day.2594 youre right about the conversation part, I was more stating that as the enitre thread went immediately to medi vs power thief. I am being confronted about this by 2 people here.

As far as running away from a fight when you get outplayed as being the point, I agree, the problem is you are too enabled there, more so enabled than others. I never stated you should always fight to the death and get killed out of honor, Im saying that there should definitely be more ways to keep you from getting away so easily. I never said you did something dishonorable or even cheap other than the fact that its cheaply given to you through a mechanic that there is few counters to.

And I actually said what you said in my post. Duels are one thing, something completely different than game play. Yes I can reck you in a duel for the most part, that doesnt mean anything to the game play or your advantages in said game play. I completely agree with you on that.

Zero Day.2594:

nightblood.7910:

….
But stealth allows thieves to harass, that may not be you specifically, but youre ability to run away rather than die is more of a problem than you think.
…

Can you explain how running away is a problem?

As the above poster said, many classes depend on cool downs, your ability to stealth get away before dieing and come back quickly without cooldowns gives you a very very clear advantage. Like I said, in the duel you lose that advantage because who duels and runs away and who duels in places where I have to come hunt you down? I know where you are in a duel,I know you are someplace close, I know youre coming soon, Im in that duel to the end myself. Thats as completely different ballgame.

Not to mention how quickly in sPvP when you get in trouble, youre able to let go of that fight to add into another fight instead of being downed like you should have been if you were outplayed. If you were not so enabled to run away, you would be points scored by the better fighter, not get away and turn that into points scored for your team.

Also understand this conversation went to medi guard vs power thief because medi guard is a problem for power thief and somehow its a rebuttle to the bigger picture. Thats a very isolated conversation far away from the bigger picture.

And to note, the biggest problem I have in game with another toon in a fight is a D/D ele. I dont complain about them.

I do complain about medi guard reliance on energy sigils as vigorous precision is broken for medi. (first hit vigor), If I could run doom sigils instead, I dont even think that would be an impossible fight though still difficult.

Once agian, Im not arguing for guard as much as other classes. I can also show you videos of power thief owning medi guards, two back to back in the same area.

Yes you would have to rethink your attack process on guard, more importantly is how guard would affect you in more than a 1v1. In a 5v5 for example.

Yes Im very well aware of thieves not being the biggest problem to medi guard, I personally do not have a huge problem with them 1v1 except that closing the deal when they get away is not always an option for me. Yes in a duel where running away is not an option, and they pretty much have to attack, yeah its going to be gg or Im doing something wrong.

But stealth allows thieves to harass, that may not be you specifically, but youre ability to run away rather than die is more of a problem than you think.

I also think chill affecting you properly would end that problem (medi guards dont have chill) as well as reveal. You would have to dedicate yourself to win or die, not well Ive changed my mind.

Thus making you think twice about harassing people just because you can always get away.

Not to mention both of those symbols have cooldowns. You act like its a guaranteed thing. Its not always a guaranteed thing that the guard will not be on cool down with symbols. Theyre not thieves, they have cooldowns.

Secondly, thieves have dazes off guards, there will be no ability to even use that symbol when you daze me and then cnd off me before I ever even get the chance to do anything. As the many times this has happened over and over again when you attack from behind as Im moving to where ever I am going.

Dont even act like you guys dont do that to a guard. Run up behind them, attack, daze them, then CND. Yeah you already have an immediate counter to gs 4.

Yeah, the problem is you really are not that good at defending yourself in that environment as an uplevel. The scaling is not as good as in sPvP. You become a liability for whatever guild you are running with as when you die you will rally the enemy and very well could cause a wipe.

Now personally I feel and “believe” that if you choose to solo on an uplevel, well thats your gig.

DarkSyze.8627:

nightblood.7910:

Zero Day.2594:

nightblood.7910:

O.K. do thieves suffer what other classes do from chill in their weapon skills? Is it not a truth that they are immune to chill’s affect on weapon skills that other classes have?

Is it not a truth that the same thing is for interrupt mechanics and how thieves also do not suffer from the same penalty for being interrupted in their weapon skills?

Those are/were questions, and worded as such. Trying to get whoever is reading to come up with an answer, hopefully one that falls in line with w/e your trying to argue.

Your belief seems to be that it would be fair that thieves are effected by chill/interrupts.

That part is a truth too, but these are facts that thieves have immunity to these areas in their weapon skills correct?

You discuss how a mechanic like stealth should not be touched because its the mechanic of thieves and its very important, yet the mechanics of other’s skills, you should be immune to because well youre thieves and its very important.

read here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-and-Chill

Once again, and Im kinda done arguing. But even that post suggest thieves need “reliable” ways of counter, while everyone else should have unreliable ways to counter them.

I admit though, the person responsible for defending thieves to the dev team has been really good at his job.

But chill has a very profound affect on me as well and D/D ele is the medi hard counter, partly because of such. Most medi guards do not carry anything that reduces its CD’s. Chill is a very profound problem if other things are on cooldown to counter it.

There is just not a very reliable counter to chill for medi that I can always get rid of the penalty whenever I want to. Ohh well what to do.

morbidillusion.2759:

nightblood.7910:

Why should thieves not have to deal with chill like the rest?

Chill effects Thief utilities, heals, elites and movement speed the same as any other class. It doesn’t effect weapon skills because of the initiative system. Why should Thieves not have a fresh set of initiative on weapon swap like every other class has fresh cooldowns? There are gives and takes that you are completely oblivious to because you spend all of your time trying to get thieves nerfed on the forums instead of getting a clue.

There are a ton of people complaining about thieves and the only response that anyone has been able to give to that is “there is something wrong you, you dont know how to play.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYS9Q8Iq0Dk

This is a youtube video of Caed, thief for The Abjured, arguably the best in the game and certainly better than any casual player. He somehow defeats the ranger 2-1 and against the engineer it’s a joke. He relies heavily on LOS-porting with sword which is often not an option. Watching him lose almost all of his health in seconds and having to constantly reset if he gets hit by any condi skills while he needs to literally stick to the ranger for 20+ seconds of unmitigated melee in order to kill him is the perfect example of the mathematical disadvantage that Thieves face.

Thieves are annoying for noobs. Not overpowered.

Why should their be no counter to stealth amongst player skills?

Press 1.

Why cant you bring anything but personal attacks to a conversation?

Why can’t you stop trying to nerf a class that you don’t play and have no idea how to play? I’m pretty sure I saw you in the guardian forums (I also play guardian) and surmised that you play/main a guardian. If you are honestly complaining about Thieves from the perspective of a guardian you really need to get a clue. You are actively choosing to be bad at this game and lose to Thieves by refusing to spend any amount of time understanding what allows a Thief to stealth, port, etc.

1. It affects my weapon skills, some of them being just as important as yours. Why exactly do I not have immunity to chill in my weapon sets?

2. Just press one, not always as effective as you guys make it out to be. While you can still be hit with wild swings, and maybe if Im lucky I land a mighty blow on you while in stealth, thats not a very reliable way to attack. I work without targets very often and to do that, its all about visual understanding of your target, when they are going to move, where they are going to move, and how they move. Even ranger evasion skills can be read. Stealth cant be read. While that is an advantage to you, I dont think it should be completely taken away. I said light fields should reveal stealth, can you imagine the problem of catching a thief in a light field while in stealth. It wouldnt be easy. Its a very minor change to stealth.

3. As of late, I do main guard but I main staff ele really (thus the chill reference) and thieves were a huge problem. I do admit though, Im not complaining for guards, Im complaining for the many other classes.

4. I agree with the engineer solo problem.

5. Thank you for adding to the conversation with something more than “youre just a noob. There is something wrong with you.”

Zero Day.2594:

nightblood.7910:

O.K. do thieves suffer what other classes do from chill in their weapon skills? Is it not a truth that they are immune to chill’s affect on weapon skills that other classes have?

Is it not a truth that the same thing is for interrupt mechanics and how thieves also do not suffer from the same penalty for being interrupted in their weapon skills?

Those are/were questions, and worded as such. Trying to get whoever is reading to come up with an answer, hopefully one that falls in line with w/e your trying to argue.

Your belief seems to be that it would be fair that thieves are effected by chill/interrupts.

That part is a truth too, but these are facts that thieves have immunity to these areas in their weapon skills correct?

You discuss how a mechanic like stealth should not be touched because its the mechanic of thieves and its very important, yet the mechanics of other’s skills, you should be immune to because well youre thieves and its very important.

O.K. do thieves suffer what other classes do from chill in their weapon skills? Is it not a truth that they are immune to chill’s affect on weapon skills that other classes have?

Is it not a truth that the same thing is for interrupt mechanics and how thieves also do not suffer from the same penalty for being interrupted in their weapon skills?

Turk.5460:

nightblood.7910:

It just hit me, but queue priority would solve a lot of complaints. While the lower tiers are complaining about not having enough people, top tiers servers like FA are complaining that their queues continue to grow. Ive seen Chinese server complaints about queue times as well and how its driving the older dedicated players out of the game.

Queue Priority based on time and achievements in WvW for that specific server would resolve a lot of bandwagoning, allow long time players on a server to still play the game they love and not have to compete for time to play it with people just jumping on the next big thing.

Basically you would pass right by a new player in queue for that server if you are “older” than they are.

This…this is…
This is just a terrible idea.

It very well might be, but can you elaborate?

Yeah I know, its why I backed out of the thief forums with an apology and havent returned.

Honestly, I said in this post (not really expecting some change) what I personally think should happen with thieves. I do see my own mistake complaining about thieves in the thief forum. That was rather stupid of me.

But this is the WvW forum and I was just adding a to a conversation some things that are truths, if it gets noticed great, if not ohh well.

morbidillusion.2759:

Sinbold.8723:

Great ideas, nightblood.7910!!! It never occurred to me about chill and interrupts, but you have a point.

Have to say I hate the idea that we need to carry a “trap” that costs 15 silver and some badges of honor if we want to reveal a thief. What kind of poo is that? Light fields revealing stealth would be an excellent addition to the game.

Just gonna go ahead and call out nightblood.7910 for being the guy who whined about thieves for a couple days in the thief forums. Then someone told him to make a video of him playing thief in PvP and he posted this less than one day later:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-I-kinda-Rescind/first#post4881370

This guy’s posts are pure comedy. You should be embarrassed to agree with him.

If you are losing to Thieves 1v1 and you’re not a mesmer, it’s because you’re bad.

Yes and I apologized to that forum too. I completely was wrong in their damage proportion vs these other aspects.

Pure comedy, please explain.

Why should thieves not have to deal with chill like the rest?

Why should their be only limited reveal capabilities by certain classes carrying certain skills?

And why is it that the only thing thieves can bring to the table in this discussion is insults to whoever suggests some fairness to the thief mechanics.

There are a ton of people complaining about thieves and the only response that anyone has been able to give to that is “there is something wrong you, you dont know how to play.”

Yeah an enitee community of people complaining about a specific class and its mechanics as being unfair must have something to do with those people and not the thief mechanics.

I also said in those posts as soon as I created the thief I instantly saw what made them overpowered, and its in the initiative mechanics combined with stealth. The more Ive played them the more Ive seen they are immune to things like chill and interrupts. I do apologize as I havent finished leveling that thief as Im not interested in wasting Tomes on it.
Why do thieves need to be immune to other skill mechanics as well as having their very own skill mechanic that sets them aside from other classes?

Why should their be no counter to stealth amongst player skills?

Why cant you bring anything but personal attacks to a conversation?

I said this in a couple of other threads, but to me it seems like one major complaint I hear is the same one Im hearing here.

“Ive been playing since the beginning and now I cant even get in WvW to play.”

I think queue priority would fix a lot of the problems people complain about. The longer you have been on a server and playing WvW on that server the higher priority you have in that server’s queues.

Im fairly new compared to a lot of people and this still seems fair to me. It would likely drive me down to a lower tier server but I dont see why someone who has been playing on a server for years should be locked out of a map because Im ahead of them in queue.

I posted something in this thread I think would help balance the tiers to create more competitive play in lower tiers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Tiers-Question/first#post4936951

It just hit me, but queue priority would solve a lot of complaints. While the lower tiers are complaining about not having enough people, top tiers servers like FA are complaining that their queues continue to grow. Ive seen Chinese server complaints about queue times as well and how its driving the older dedicated players out of the game.

Queue Priority based on time and achievements in WvW for that specific server would resolve a lot of bandwagoning, allow long time players on a server to still play the game they love and not have to compete for time to play it with people just jumping on the next big thing.

Basically you would pass right by a new player in queue for that server if you are “older” than they are.

I think this would inspire more server dedication.

Rid the game of server’s completely imploding as DR, MAG, GOM, all have as of late. (though MAG is on the way back up.)

Distribute people more evenly amongst the servers and likely help with lag times (I dont know the whole technical set up there to actually say this would be true.)

It would also help resolve some of the cheating that occurs by players creating accounts on other servers just to drive golems off cliffs and spy unfairly.

Yeah this sounds a little like my story.

When I first returned to gaming I was on DH while they were getting pummeled by NSP a year ago. Before DH rose in the ranks.

At that time, WvW was a ghost town. No one wanted to play because NSP was just steam rolling everything. It wasnt much of a challenge, it was impossible.

I thought for sure WvW was broken.

After NSP went on their way on up t3-t4, then all of a sudden WvW became active for me.

Now this is going to be horrible to fix because human nature is driving it. Top tiers are plagued with queues, on the other side of the coin, lower tiers have no people.

People are trading queue times for action believe it or not.

Many people have mentioned ways of fortifying lower tiers with false stats but how fair is that to a server who has put together a leadership team that is dedicated to growing that community and server to win? That this server should be minimized some how in what they achieved to make it more available for a server who has not done well with this.

Now, people do tend to like to be on the winning team and thus a bandwagon mentality occurs.

I would think queue priority would be an interesting thing. In other words, the longer you have been on a server the more priority you have in that server’s WvW queues.

The older more dedicated players for that server pass right by ones who just showed up.

This would inspire more server dedication vs the bandwagon mentality that is driving WvW.

It would also help with the people who create an account on another server just to drive golems off a cliff and spy unfairly on the server.

It would also push some down to lower tier servers, as now their queue times just extended greatly, because now not only do they have to deal with queue, they are somewhere in the priority of that queue.

DarkSyze.8627:

Read this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC22ZF21Llk

“why stealth action game fail? stealth and action are at odd of each other”

I actually agree with this part. Part of the problem with the thief class is there really isnt much for the thief to do and be its thiefy self.

Out in the middle of the battle field mentality really isnt good for a thief in logic and lore, And because this is not really an open world PvP its hard to find the correct placement for that game mentality and it actually fit.

Even mesmers have been able to place itself in a position of playing a “thief” role with hiding in keeps to port others in.

It would be an interesting twist to have objectives that require stealth to take and win in both sPvP and WvW settings. Something requiring stealth only and limited number of people (No blasting smoke from a zerg to get through these things.) for the thief to be engaging in and have an advantage in besides harassing other players.

Well thieves in my opinion have a lot more than just stealth.

Honestly its not just the stealth that is the problem.

Chill. The rest of the classes in the game have to deal with chill affecting CD, but because thieves “Dont have” a CD it does not affect them this way.
Honestly chill should slow initiative regen so the thief has to deal with the same things the rest of us do there.

Interrupts. Once again the rest of the game deals with a CD when interrupted. Yet thieves also do not deal with this. Initiative regen should stop completely for that same time period that others have to deal with the CD.

Now one thing to stealth that should be changed, I think, is light fields should reveal stealth. It would take two things to happen for that to work, the thief would need to both be in stealth and be in the light field. This would make guardian symbols have reveal benefits, but given its a light field that does make sense.

Personally I think all three should happen, but specifically the top two.

PS and yes Im fully aware that light fields are pretty much the same size as Shadow Refuge.

Actually it can happen, your server just doesnt have the coverage to make it happen. I said it before, in upper tiers its not as devastating and what I meant was the EU and Oceanic time blocks are covered.

Thus its still a challenge late at night in certain tiers. There is a huge coverage gap between tier 2 and 3 and any tier 2 server that drops for the most part absolutely dominates because of this coverage gap.

While lower tiers have less coverage and are more prone to night capping at the same time, they have to pull all nighters to do it and its not sustainable for them to rise in tiers.

Believe me, Ive seen 40k point comebacks in one night in lower tiers, I know what youre talking about and it does drive you nuts. Ive been on both sides of it. GOM used to be famous for thursday night all nighters before they collapsed.

And what I meant about small scale challenge was not that you were looking for something less challenging, youre just not looking at the bigger picture of things. Get involved with your server leadership, help them raise money to recruit for EU time blocks.

For good or bad, this is what servers do to win. Just like Guilds, they recruit, they pay for transfers to help build the server and they strategically do so.

It sounds like whatever server youre on has a minimal EU and Oceanic coverage.

That can be changed, Ive seen it happen. There is a bigger picture here besides night capping, top tier servers work on their server constantly to gain coverage. We all have the same availability of numbers, we all have the same queue to deal with, the biggest difference between top tiers and lower tiers is the 24 hour coverage.

DarkSyze.8627:

Ragnarox.9601:

DarkSyze.8627:

I never say nothing about us dying: i do not know where everyone say that. This thread is about a Guardian class doing very high damage which should be warrior class and also how possible a Guardian Class can drain all necromancer death shroud.

wait wha? after seeing your post at rangers forum to nerf their dmg and range you should go to other classes forums and complain too, I would like to see their responses

Guardians wreck scrubs like flies, you should know that because you did experience it on your skin

I am not complaining, i am just concern about their damage and ask question why they can drain all necromancer death shroud.

I like Guardian Class because some commander in my server play Guardian and i understand why: i only ask for small adjustment only, just small. I do not think it will effect their surivivalbility at all. That is what Guardian do: they guard and keep everyone in party/zerg alive but not to excel in offence more than survivalbility.

In result: suggestion will help Guardian focus more on survivalbility instead of focus only in damage.

(Guardian is a team player class, not a 1-1 player class)

Wait, why exactly does everyone have it in their mind that a guard should be completely unable to 1 v 1 and only be party support.

They have skills called “Monk’s focus” for a reason. Hence the word “Monk” which is generally a solo character doing considerable damage.

Why should the class be pigeon holed into one play style to start, and why does it not make sense that this class not be able to logically excel at 1v1?

And honestly if you look at the medi guard, it really is just a variant of the old 5 hp Monk from GW1. Uses much of the same principles without the absolute invincibility to melee it had.

yeah Ive noticed skill names missing at times. Just a bug in the graphics, they do still work correctly.

There are a lot of issues in WvW but I dont think this is one of them.

Night Capping is a tactic used in real world scenarios.

Golems are just mobile artillery.

Also to let you know, night capping is less of a thing in higher tiers. While in lower tiers it is pretty devastating, Ive been in both.

While it sucks, you can define strategy as skill and well its a good strategy used in war itself.

Also understand its not sustainable if people are just pulling all nighters. In the end if they dont end up with real coverage during that time, they will fall back down.

As for Numbers, what I have noticed about WvW is the winners are those who recruit the best. Whether its guilds or servers. Strategic formation of people is a skill.

It has everything you want, just on a bigger scale. Youre asking for small scale challenge.

Now I do have a problem with no balanced arena for the 15 to 20 man team. Id love to see an arena that is in between WvW and sPvP.

SlayerSixx.5763:

You can’t reliably finish an auto attack, #3 at close range is pointless, #4 is lols, #5 can be stab/teleported through (anyone who CAN’T teleport can facetank, except for necro) and in some cases, your banish could knock them out of the circle. The only perk is mighty blow, but that has really low range and could be dodged by a person who knows what they’re doing.

GS CAN reliably finish an auto attack (also can help you keep around 2 stacks of might if you’re just autoing between skills). #2 is so good it has a whole setup around its burst. #3 is an ACTUAL gap closer with a nifty blind WHICH can get you some clutch damage mitigation if you can time it, #4 (especially when traited for) can really help you claim a point. #5 is an AoE pull that counts as a whirl (meaning you have TWO skills to shoot cleansing bolts out of if you do it in a light field) and is an uncleansable “condition”.

In terms of damage, the GS outshines the Hammer ANY day in ANY way vs ANY class. In terms of mobility, the GS wins. The CC on hammer is far too telegraphed for it to be good enough as a standalone weapon which is why I believe its merely a utility weapon. You don’t find bunker builds running GS for a reason.

In terms of Burst damage, GS does outshine. I said that. I also said Hammer is very telegraphed. But I run the heck out of it and find it to be very good in sustained damage. I can fire off 5k hits almost back to back due to the low CD. The ring, yeah it can be countered but not always. The pull in gs can be stabed you have to get it done right.

I didnt say GS was horrible, but i find Hammer to be able to provide “significant” damage over time where GS is way better in terms of Burst.

The GS cooldowns kill it for being decent sustained damage, in other words, generally once you have burst it doesnt have much left to offer.

That doesnt mean it doesnt do a lot of damage and is useless. I never said that.
I personally like hammer and use the heck out of it, a lot of the problems you say it has, Ive managed to overcome by reading my opponent (which is why I hate stealth opponents as I rely heavily on my site in this game to time everything.)

I also find hammers low range is great to control it when you dont have a target in close range. Overshooting in a close range fight with no target is very easily accomplished with GS.

I find Mighty blow devastating to Mesmers and Ring even more so.

Dont get me wrong, GS will always be probably one of the most viable weapons for guard, but that doesnt mean hammer is not just as viable.

Isnt the number 1 guard in sPvP a hammer guard?

ZhouFusion.1826:

I get why people don’t wanne change it and why they do.
Now 1 guy can keep it contested for hours wich is unfair.
But without contesting a Zerg with waypoints can save everything without effort.

So theres options.
They could put a Limit on waypoints.
You can Waypoint Once every 3-5min.
Wich could make contesting a bit less usefull.

Or they can change the way it gets contested.
I like the idea only by Siege but it doesn’t sound compleet.
But i would like to add Also by hitting the lord.
Or by Hitting Inner Walls/gates.

And if it wouldn’t be to bad i wanne see what happends if:
Lord dead = Waypoint deactivated.
Would be interesting concept but i bet we never see it happen to many people would be against it.
But personaly if your enemy gets in your keep and manage to kill the lord. then you should had have time to stop them and it means you where slacking.

I personally dont see the other side of this as you say “A zerg with waypoints can save everything without effort”. They had to work to get those waypoints. If the waypoints were just there with no work then this might be a valid argument.

Thats one of the designs of the game, you dont like them having a waypoint, take that keep. Then keep pressure on the camps and towers from havok teams extending the time it takes to get the waypoint and keep sups in the keep. Keep pressure on the keep to get them to use up their sups repairing it to keep them from getting that waypoint.

Yeah each of these things are a tad more difficult than running up and knocking on the door to disable a waypoint, but well wouldnt that be the point?

Atoss.1056:

Contesting with siege is pretty easy though, you can just build sneaky cata at sneaky spot and contest it sneaky sneaky Sure it takes 2-3 runs to supply camp or 2-3 friends to come with you, but that looks more ok to me, than a troll running around tagging things for fun while using build with tons of chill/immob/cripple resistance 98% or stances and highest mobility in the game. Ofc you can kill the troll, but like in life or in forums, just the same way in game noone likes to deal with them.

Yeah, you can destroy and go take back the camp they took to build it. While yes it would work once, maybe twice, but because you can kill that cata and guild catas are expensive while sup catas are expensive in sups, it really makes it hard to keep it contested constantly.

I dont mind a strategic contesting of a way point once, but the three hour trolling of it is getting old.

dancingmonkey.4902:

ZhouFusion.1826:

I get why people don’t wanne change it and why they do.
Now 1 guy can keep it contested for hours wich is unfair.
But without contesting a Zerg with waypoints can save everything without effort.

For me, the issue is not that one guy can contest it. It is that one guy can contest it, with simply one hit. I am fine with one guy contesting it, but he should be required considerably more effort. As this is a “group play” oriented game, I feel there should be a system that makes it more efficient for a group to contest it, while allowing a single person, the capability. In my opinion, setting a higher level of damage to cause it to become contested, offers that.

Im agreeing with this. Its too easily accomplished.

And honestly, it requires how many upgrades to get that waypoint. How long do you have to keep SM or a KEEP to get those waypoints, only to have them be taken away by one insanely dedicated troll.

Having a waypoint in say SM is a hard thing to accomplish in a good match, then once the server gets it there one guy can knock on a door once to take it away? (Im using this as an example of difficulty in creating the waypoint.)

A ton of work from an entire server so easily voided by one guy is not right, why bother having the waypoints in the game with the upgrade track to get them.

Imagine real life, some dude comes up and knocks on the door, I dont think it would set off the lockdown security in the keep.

Also the immob while it has a long distance its easily seen at long distances, up close its a much more devastating immob and 2k crit if youre running full zerk.

Banish, great for getting downs out of the vicinity and separating some from fights. I do find it a little dangerous but then again its not one of my more practiced skills yet.

I personally like hammer a lot due to the low CD on Mighty Blow allowing for a heavy AOE hit consistently. It can be combined with fiery wrath by using f1 before the immob. or a cleave. OR set up to be used after JI.

I completely disagree with it being a “utility” as I find it to have more sustained damage than gs but lower burst capability.

I play a guard. I also play hammer a lot.

Understand there are times when it cant be evaded. Mighty blow is a matter of knowing its distance and then calculating where the enemy will be. Its AOE, so its a matter of catching them in it after they have made a move or are in the middle of doing so. It is very telegraphed.

My advice run around and try to hit random places and things. My favorite thing to do is try to land a mighty blow on friends in WvW. Due to not having a target, you really start to learn the control of it.

Being there is no guarantee you will have a target in this game, getting used to playing without one is pretty vital.

Ive noticed most people, if I try to land it out in the open it gets dodged, if I try to land it in the direction they dodge from something else. I got them.

Same with ring, its a matter of starting your ring when you think they will be there. So you have to get used to that long cast time and predetermine your move.

Catch them coming in not while they are trying to get away.

Also Ive found ring to be a life saver in some cases, remember, just as it can keep people trapped in, it can also keep people trapped out.