The “tax” is three fold. Two are intentional and one is just an artifact. Intentional is that the damage on our weapons is slightly lower than most. Intentional is that the #1 attack direct damage on our weapons (and ‘nades) is lowered. Un-intentional but what really makes the other two so hard to overcome is that we do not get precision and crit-damage in the same trait line (like Ele, Mesmer, Thief, Ranger; look familiar for high hitting classes? Ranger gets a tax for their pets though.) With 0 crit damage it takes 2 crit% to be 1% more of damage. At 50 crit damage it’s 1 for 1. Classes that can up their crit, and at the same time the stat that makes their crit that much more powerful, in the same trait line have a LOT more points to spend in other trait lines. We can make a hard hitting, high precision, high crit damage class but you are gonna be running a static discharge, rifle, (and I think best) turret+elixer build. Classes that do have prec/cd on the same trait line can get 2-3 builds out of it where we can get 1.
So yes there is a tax. Yes it’s a pain. Yes it’s dumb. Ele, Mes, Thief sacrifice something for damage (cooldown, hp, hp respectively). We sacrifice damage for something (“versatility”. I.e., no cooldown on kits). At the least we should have a couple of more weapons and prec/cd on the same trait line to let us try and overcome the handicap.
Warriors defeat this argument, I’m sorry to say. (their crit and crit damage are in different trees and they’re the highest raw damage output — both burst and sustained — on a standing target)
I do agree the damage tax is utter BS.
If they expect us to use kits, they should have made the kits F1-F4.
They don’t, that means our weapons should do decent damage on their own so we can make builds that don’t utilize kits.
The problem with this is that those backpacks are meant to signify what kit you are using to your enemies. It’d be like hiding your weapon in combat.
How often (before or during a fight) do we have someone standing BEHIND us to let him see which kit we are using?
IF Anet really wanted the kits-backpack to show opponents which kit we are using, it would make more sense to give each kit its own symbol next to buff/debuff-list!
Hey, it’s not as if each kit replaces our weapon(s) with whatever massive thing signifies the kit..
(flame thrower, elixir gun)
If you can’t tell the difference between a pistol and an elixir gun on an engineer without looking at their backpack, you have a LOT more problems in this game than difficulty determining what ability the engineer will be using next.
I actually look forward to this nerf if and only if ANet actually counters out the nerf with some buffs to the other trait lines. As someone stated above that the water and arcane trees outshine fire and air. I believe if those became stronger (or have a lot better synergy ) that more creative and unique builds will come out. I have played with other builds, some work, some do terrible. I just hope that this next patch will bring equilibrium to the ele so the community can move away from the 0/10/0/30/30 variations.
In short, wait for the feb 26 patch before looking into build diversity ( the nerf that will be coming could change the gameplay a little for the ele)
Since when has ANet done anything but destroy builds entirely, more often than not taking down entirely unrelated builds as collateral damage?
Does the greatsword nerf that missed wide on perma-retal and gutted GS symbol support not ring a bell here?
I’d also like to point out that earth is so lack luster nobody is even mentioning it here.
I watched these thoughtless changes make me quit my guardian, which I wanted to raise as GS symbol support, then my mesmer, because I won’t play a class when ANet quite literally apologizes for making it PVE and support vialbe, then hotfixes into the ground. Now i’m watching them “eyeing” the boons.. the boons that form the very core of what elementalist is, what it does for groups.
If the so much as touch my boons, i’m gone from this game.. i’m just done.
I dealt with “homogenization” and the gutting of group support as a role in WoW, I won’t lend my time or effort chasing the dying idea of group support in this game when ANet seems determined to kill it.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
seriously, p/p elementalist.
Why must they be hindered with primitive sticks and blades?
We roam in a game-world full of technology.
Are you saying scholars would be unable to wield elemental powers through reasonably complex machines?
anything that involves carry over distance will be mesmer first, unless they cause portal to drop any carried bundle. (which would make COF p2 a pain)
fire 3 – “fire whirl”
same as original poster, but whirl is in place and finisher is whirl.
spell effect should be an upside-down flaming tornado.
blasting staff talent
use various aoes.
I find it a bit funny that people only suggest Ground Targeting for it. Personally, I think it would be interesting to see it Home on the target instead. Maybe that would be a bit too good then, but it certainly would be interesting. I mostly play with staff on pve so I can’t really comment on what would and wouldn’t be balance. But I do understand how useless it is now.
having the tooth follow the target would NOT be overpowered so long as you could still prevent it landing by dodging as it went off.
it hangs there for 3 seconds.
surely it doesn’t take a ludicrous amount of skill to count to 3 and hit dodge.
@Caffynated
Nice, using Earthquake then lightning flash takes a bit to get used to and requires a good keybind for LF but this can really throw your enemy off. Your also getting a free full damage phoenix off and possibly a fire grab after.@Dolgaris
Yea, predictability, it killed 100Blade warriors, Pistol Whip thieves and Backstab thieves and soon D/D eles.@Gallrvaghn
Practice makes perfect. Just gotta break the rutine, ride the lightning into updarft is the one to start with. Against any competent player you will lose your updarft 90% of the time and its CD is 40sec so losing it isn’t a good for your side of the fight.
Sorry slasher, ANET is going to kill eles first.
Judging by their fury comment, it’s not just D/D that will suffer (it will be EVERY build)
^
I am currently running around in wvw with ~67% crit with fury and 91% crit damage which I’m hoping to get up to 100% with ascended gear. I run a similar setup in tpvp, except with lower numbers due to gear differences of course. I am far from the only ele running glass.One thing I’m looking forward to with this patch is the fact that a lot of people who believe eles can only survive if built full tank are going to be forced to either actually learn the class or move on to another. Should really cut down on the fotmness.
To leave extreme defense for extreme offense really doesn’t say anything about balance of a profession, between 2 glass cannon , normally the quickest player win..the one who one-shot the other first…
When I bought this game, I didn’t sign for a free-to play FPS ty very much, I have always been running balanced builds. never used extreme bunker builds and played few times extreme offense build in sPvP, I’d rather have a game with balanced gameplay than people one-shooting themself left and right
This.
I’m very ticked that ANet allowed players do build this glassy, and pidgeon-holed ele defense into “out-heal everything or die” rather than active mitigation like most other professions.
Everyone comes into this game with rationality bounded by trinity games, builds “max dps”, then gets destroyed and cries on the forums.
People who do this should be laughed at and ridiculed by ANet cm’s, not apologized to with promises to nerf the big bad class that killed them.
Bunkers are boring as sin, do no damage, and can’t kill balanced builds.
They are used ONLY because thieves can kill you, with no advanced warning, in less time than it takes for the bits to reach you from your server.
That is ludicrous, and yet they unilaterally say “yeah we’re nerfing eles” while posting to the thief forums politely asking these kings of overpoweredness how they would like their class to play.
It’s an RPG version of what happened between 2008 and now with big banks, the rest of us, and our government.
ANet sees backstab thief builds utterly breaking this game, and instead of fixing them, they go around sledge-hammering the core mechanics of any class that counters them while “politely asking” them how they would like the game remade for them.
The thread is still there in the theif forums. Thief wars 2.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
As a thief here i cant help but to laugh at this.
For months and months on a row, every one and they’re dog was whining about the thieves, now for the last 2 weeks ppl changed target… and there was chaos.“Eles are fine just tweak the aoe range” “ranges are fine just do… whatever tweak” LoL its a pain to be the target of everyones rage innit? now you know how it feels to be a thief for the last, what?! 6 month?
Remember this moment the next time you decide to jump on the thieves forums crying out loud for nerfs!
enjoy!!
If they nerf the weakest class in the game while leaving thieves as obscene as they are, i’m taking my refund to the title office and registering my car with it.
I’ll sell my tower off and stick with consoles, where the game I buy STAYS the game I buy without third parties deciding my preferred playstyle should be sacrificed because whiners don’t know how to pick boon stripping traits and adapt.
Now eles are getting nerfed for hiding in their “we don’t get 1 shot anymore” build.
i LOLed but it’s sad that this is pretty much true.
ANets devs all play thieves I think.
Despite a MUCH greater dependence upon trait synergy than thieves, you NEVER see threads like this one in the ele forums.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback
Dont let the door hit you on the way out.
I’ll use my refund money to register my car. Btw, i’m destroying all my gold, you’re not getting it.
For standard cruising:
twin daggers, zephyr’s boon + elemental attunement (boon duration runes are nice but not absolutely necessary).
put water 4 and air 3 on auto-attack (daggers).
start in water, once frost aura activates, attune to air, once shocking aura activates, go to either fire or earth.
Return to air as much as possible.
Return to water when frost aura is dropping off cooldown.
You get a couple seconds of swiftness from the air attunements + 10(to 16) seconds from shocking + 7 (to 12) seconds from frost aura.
Rotate these ad infinitum and you stack swiftness slightly faster than it drops off.
Personally, I think the Health should stay as it is. But overall, our defensive ability in most build is weak. I’d rather see more useful traits and improvement to skills, defensive or offensive, than just upping our Health to 13K like a Mesmer. I mean, there will always be a “weakest” profession Health and Armor wise. And personally, I have no problem with it being Ele. However, I do think that in PvP, Ele could use some improvements (which should also affect PvE of course).
mesmer has a weak hp base? with my mesmer im glass cannon and I has 21khp with berseker :P if i build him bunker holy *
Glass cannon mesmers don’t have Vitality on any of their gear. They should have between 15k-16k hp. Saying you have 21k hp in berserker means you’re not full glass cannon.
15k?
full glass is berserker. berserkers breaking 15k? prepostrous.
Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.
The ways they discussed nerfing us was that some of our healing support when piled on top of each other is too effective. A very specific example was permanent Fury which is a thing for us. Another was the way all our tiny heals, regens, and condition removals all stacked up together giving us very strong defense.
It’s extremely unlikely, or at least they haven’t so far, take the time to separate said nerfs from PvE/sPVP/WvW because they want the game play feel to be “consistent” (as if sPvP felt at all like PvE or WvW even in the slightest).
So yea, it all kinda pertains.
Wait a second… they give us garbage for HP, nil for defense, build us around keeping boons up, then say it’s wrong for us to have fury?!
We HAVE to stack toughness as D/D to not go SPLAT.
We Can’t Viably Stack Crit As D/D!
Perma-fury is supposed to compensate for that, but only if you’re active, and only if your opponent doesn’t strip boons like crazy.
Just the thought of them nerfing us has kept me from logging on for over a week.
The idea that they’re targeting zephyr’s boon makes me want to file a refund ticket.
I will not be logging in until the next patch.
If I see any dents to fury on the patch notes I’m filing a refund ticket and going to PWI titles where the loot sucks less and at least there are better armor skins.
The people that say silly stuff like these usually say it for 2 reasons.
1. They lack understanding real economies.
I graduated from a top 10 econ program, understood the subject better in my sleep than most of the people nosing the grindstone, and I say this game has a bad economy.
2. They are so used to all the crappy game economies that when they see one that is more similar to a real one (not to the extent of EvE). That they complain.
Similar to a real one? Must.. restrain.. laughter.
here are some examples from a real economy:
when aluminum becomes too expensive, auto manufacturers can swap to steel.
Try swapping a crystalline lodestone for a charged one and see how far that gets you.
When the price of oil skyrockets, everyone goes out drilling for more. The price of precursors is rocketing out of control, but the horrific drop rate makes volunteering to add to that supply a ludicrous option.
When you plant crops, you will, barring a horrific natural disaster or outright negligence, be able to reap what you sow. If you go to farm in GW2 you get a backpack full of porous bones.
They say this is to discourage botting, but bots don’t get tired or bored, humans do.
This, is a bad economy. So bad it, along with ANet’s insistence on swinging and missing wildly with the nerf club before even making the trait lines of half the professions in the game have the novel concept of “synergy”, discourages me from logging on.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
Since you aren’t aware of this: Thieves only unstealth when they successfully hit their target. If you dodge or block, they don’t unstealth, although you have made them waste initiative.
This specifically needs to be fixed.
If someone blocks you, that’s active.
It’s illogical for them to not know where you are after blocking one of your attacks.
I think you’re approaching combat wrong.
When facing non-elite mobs, I will typically make it a contest of how much damage I can avoid while killing my foe.
The above thread sounds like a ad for bots in gw2. Taking all the bots out of game apparently ruined the game? Darn arenanet for doing their job and getting rid of bots/rmt who support terrorist organizations, credit card theft, identity theft, and hacked accounts.
That’s not what I was getting at at all. Bots are bad, and everyone can agree with that. However, bad or not, removing so many bots so quickly, removed an enormous part of in the supply chain and was devastating to the economy. 35000 bots, which if they’re running 24/7 is probably the equivalent to close to 150,000 player accounts, all putting stuff on the TP. Many people keep all their craftable stuff, so in reality, this may likely be equivalent to even more players than that. Added to that, the DR to prevent farming and reduced drops that still plague many people, including myself, I would argue it was a knee-jerk reaction and not well thought out what the consequences would be. Perhaps the current TP is what they had envisioned all along and the bots had broken it. I do know the game is a far cry from what it was when I first started playing it…and that is the main problem many people have. This is not the same game I bought.
35000 bots at one time…really? The bots should never have been allowed to get to that level to begin with…that is entirely on ArenaNet and it’s the player base that is paying the price.
Really, 3 blues and a green gem for the Megadestroyer? Literally less than one can make on a single mid-level ore node. I can go to Orr and make more on porous bones in ten minutes. This can’t be intended behavior and is just plain chinsy for the sake of it. It’s a boss event for god’s sake!!! People will eventually get fed up with it. At least two other people on the event with me only got blues. Wasn’t this one the contributing factors to D3’s failure? Horrible drop rates?
A 12G day? OMG, I can’t even comprehend a 12G day. If I sold everything that dropped on a good day in Orr, including mats, I might see 3G…on a bad day, easily less than 50s. And that doing 8-12 events. Ask yourself…“Would you be OK with drop rates like this?”
This guy is in exactly my boat. I’m glad at least one person understands, and it all started on 11/15. Meanwhile my buddies on the “other half” of the great loot divide still bank 9-15 ectos a day.
This game isn’t just a sellers market, people who want to buy precursors can put buy orders in and refuse to buy at the seller’s price. There’s nothing a seller could do about it either, except mark down the price.
The entire market is influenced by sellers and buyers alike, the price is high because the buyers let it be so. The problem is in the players, not ANet.
The problem is in the utter lack of supply, and ANet controls the supply.
When ANet makes supplies that scarce, you end up with basement dwellers and only basement dwellers able to access these, and everyone else who has a life gets to take a flying leap. I thought this game was supposed to reward people for “playing how they want” rather than compelling them to quit their jobs and flunk their courses.
I gave up on the legendary a few days ago and put the idea to rest. While I’d have most other ingredients needed, the precursor prices are about as broken as it gets, and while ANet could fix them fairly easily by increasing the supply (read: make them drop more often), they seem to be fine with legendaries being rewarded to the lucky (read: Mystic Forge gamblers) and TP manipulators instead of dedicated players. If that’s the way they want to run their economy, I can’t change it.
^^^ QFT. When I realized the trend back in 11/15, I stopped looking at legendaries as signs of experience and instead look at their wielders as exploiters and gold buyers.
at least PWI doesn’t beat about the bush regarding pay to win.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
It’s not a “harsh randian dystopia”, it’s basic capitalism
No, it’s not.
In basic capitalism, entry to the market is easy, and possible through multiple avenues, causing tremendous price competition through both identitcal and substitute products and spikes in supply whenever prices rise above a net profit of zero.
It’s not what is happening with pecursors, and it’s not what is happening in the real US economy either. If you think it is, you live in a dream world and need to turn off the Hannity.
No, we live in an oligopolistic, rapacious mockery of what used to be a competitive capitalistic society. I log on to a fantasy game to escape that, not to have it reinforced with a(n only slightly) worse model in-game.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
If there’s a highly limited amount of something, and someone is willing to pay more then you, why do you think you deserve one?
Because this is a game, and we don’t pay to escape one harsh randian dystopia just to be put into another? What exactly is “legendary” about buying gold from the chinese farmers to get one of these in the “faster than inflation” trading post model in place right now?
healing ripple for 2.9k, water trident for 3k, evasive arcana healing ripple for 2.9k, healing ripple for 2.9k. That’s counting the signet, all AoE, all under 2 seconds.
Tested in the mists with 1223 healing power. I have eagle runes on lolol
The sig is actually healing for about 320 every time I cast something, getting about 1k every second in water. 2700 armor with rock armor, too.
Thats because the mists is a pve map right? Healing ripple has a 0.5 coefficient in spvp afaik. But yes, the other skills need a 0.5 coefficient too. Anet said back in Nov that 1.0 ratio’s were for main heals
Edit: By EA healing ripple and the following healing ripple I assume you mean cleansing wave
Water trident.. because scepter is an EXCELLENT pvp weapon, and a scepter spell should be the reason D/D gets nerfed.
I’m being trolled here. 9/10
Hardcore bunker eles use scepter.
I am not kidding. It works and it’s excellent, more so than d/d for bunkering because of rock armor, range, blinds and the vigor on pheonix.
And what the kitten does it matter? 3/4 of that can be used while in d/d anyways. Christ. Cone of cold is very similar to water trident anyawys
And I just joined a hotjoin to make sure the above poster was right about the mists. All the numbers are still the same.
LOL at complaining about scepter.
If you got hit by dragon’s tooth while not afk you get failure of the year.
cone of cold is a channeled spell which can be interrupted.
Tell me some downsides to running dagger/dagger. Something I can take advantage of.
all abilities are melee.
all skills that do more damage than a stack of bleeding require a lot of setup.
the survival comes from boon stacking and mobility.
kill them with ranged, constant cripples/immobilization, combo-breaking, and/or boon stripping.
they’re low HP.. use a burning condie spec like crit/cond engineer and they melt.
So as a shatter build mesmer, my best bet is to try and force them to burst on clones and bind them in a null field?
or you could take that trait that causes your shatters to remove boons and not worry about all that. Add to that the cripple on death and it makes it very painful to exist as an elementalist.
healing ripple for 2.9k, water trident for 3k, evasive arcana healing ripple for 2.9k, healing ripple for 2.9k. That’s counting the signet, all AoE, all under 2 seconds.
Tested in the mists with 1223 healing power. I have eagle runes on lolol
The sig is actually healing for about 320 every time I cast something, getting about 1k every second in water. 2700 armor with rock armor, too.
Thats because the mists is a pve map right? Healing ripple has a 0.5 coefficient in spvp afaik. But yes, the other skills need a 0.5 coefficient too. Anet said back in Nov that 1.0 ratio’s were for main heals
Edit: By EA healing ripple and the following healing ripple I assume you mean cleansing wave
Water trident.. because scepter is an EXCELLENT pvp weapon, and a scepter spell should be the reason D/D gets nerfed.
I’m being trolled here. 9/10
Tell me some downsides to running dagger/dagger. Something I can take advantage of.
all abilities are melee.
all skills that do more damage than a stack of bleeding require a lot of setup.
the survival comes from boon stacking and mobility.
kill them with ranged, constant cripples/immobilization, combo-breaking, and/or boon stripping.
they’re low HP.. use a burning condie spec like crit/cond engineer and they melt.
lol bunker eles can have gained over 11k heals without actually using a healing skill, not to mention the passive ffect of their heal + perma regen and soothing mists.
I’d like to see these 11k heals.
I equip full clerics for pve support (because most people want to be e-heroes in explorables) and at best I see 3k heals.
sigh. I do kill bunkers as a condi engi. I don’t “counter” multiple eles with a condi engi.
Condi engis are viable, just not against multiple eles.
And everythign I said is true. I literally linked you a build that has everything that I said in it.
And I never said anything about bunker specs. I’m talking d/d eles. Bunker specs are another realm of OP
And for the love of god I don’t play a thief. Jeuss kitten
Now you’re talking 1vs group. Learn to coordinate with your team.
All ele skills are melee, even the auras proc from melee. have one distract while others unload burst from range. RTL doesn’t make you damage immune, so once mist form is up it’s GG. Meanwhile they TICKLE you, It’s not hard.
As I said before, the kit on ele is not making it OP, there is a specific trait which is pushing it over the edge on the survival level: Soothing Disruption (cantrips grant regen).
It turns cantrips from escapes into fight resets.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
eles have mist form and ride the lightning and many many many heals as well as a variety of stunbreaks. Eles are low on the list of good targets.
They’re also on the low list of “good damage”.
Take out the supporters first, then drop immobilize, kd, or stun on the ele until it runs out of cantrips and burst it down.
mobility skills don’t break any of these.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blessing_Of_Bear
20 power for 10 minutes… not that much
The question is: how does this interact with bountiful power?
I believe you’ll have the answer there.
The problem is not 1v1ing eles. Most condi builds will DESTROY eles 1v1. The problem is in teamfights where AoE condi cleanses are insane in this meta. Also 1v1 vs trap rangers. Empathic bond is the dumbest thing ever.
I do play condis and I switch between power and condi depending on the enemy comp. But 75% of the time you’ll see me as power cuz it’s just not worth it to try condis against 2 eles and a guard and a trap ranger.
Then you have teammates too.
Learn how to call focus fire.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAoYhMmIblR5gjDAkHmAQJiCPUeMDA2A;TQAA0CvM+YGB
Yea. the 30/30/30/30/30/30/30 eles sure are all the rage. Everything I stated comes with the standard build.
and hiba is a ego kitten. Nice guy, but he’s wrong. Condis do not counter 2 ele teams.
And I have a bridge to sell you, and Romney is going to win a landslide victory in 2012.
I’ll let other elementalist players pick apart the tightly-wound pack of lies you posted trying to make your thief even more ridiculously overpowerd.
Hiba kills bunker eles with an engineer, widely considered the worst profession in the game, and you can’t. Please, L2P
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
For the love of god people. Eles are not hard to play in the slightest. I laugh at people who call burnign speed a “skill shot”. Engis are by far the hardest just for the sake of grenades.
But really, eles do have it all. A valkyrie ele has the same crit damage/power as a zerkers ele but with less crit (with near perma fury and arcane skills to make up for it). Their firegrab can crit upwards of 5-8k. They’re the fastest roamers in the game. Their many permutations of the standard 0/10/0/30/30 makes other classes 1-3 builds seem like a joke. They have natural AoE team condi cleanses/heals. They have blast finishers with fire fields to augment their team’s damage (water fields + eles = lol). They have an AoE chill and frost aura (which lasts seven kittening seconds) that have given me over 1 minute of chill with grenades. They have shocking aura on a 25 second cooldown. They have a 3 second blowout, a 2 second KD and a 2 second immobilize. They can rez/stomp with their mist form. Their elite heals for an kitten and chills in a huge AoE. But the icing on the cake is their signet heal that keeps them topped off to full that, in conjunction with evasive arcana in water, can allow them to RTL away and kittening heal up to full in under 10 seconds.
And did I mention they’re the fastest roamers in the game?
I mean, holy kitten. They are overpowered. Everyone knows it.
And hibas build does not counter the current meta. I wouldn’t even call it viable under most circumstances. Condis are a dice roll. One guard with absoltue resolution, one ele with cleansing fire or one trap ranger with healin spring can just buttkitten condis over. That’s not to mention the cleanses given via water or kittening empathic bond. Holy kitten empathic bond is dumb.
Ah, I see you’ve been playing against those 30/30/30/30/30 eles with all 5 elites slotted and somehow using multiple grand-master traits from the same line again.
The 8 k figure is a blatant lie, nobody in the realm of “reality” has seen one over 4k in bunker, and that’s on a cd rivaling cantrips, compared to 3 second cd on thieves or 8 seconds on warriors for 3 times that 8k damage.
The guy confirms he’s able to destroy D/D bunkers reliably. Others are confirming the same. I’d call that a hard-counter discovered. Maybe you need to L2P.. oh wait, ANet seems to want to cater to people who don’t want to be bothered with adapting, carry on, i’ll be playing ESO, the ones who stay behind in this game will go from their D/D eles to warriors and make the class look so OP’d it will be the next nerfed into the ground.
“nerf skill”
P.S.
All cantrips remove conditions in a bunker D/D build so cleansing fire usually won’t make it on the bars (the others provide superior secondary effects). (which Is why I advocated the removal of regen from soothing disruption)
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
More evidence the devs are knee-jerking:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Hiba-s-counter-to-multi-ele
at least SOME people are finding builds to break down eles.
it’s evidence that if condie builds didn’t suck so hard, D/D bunker would be more stoppable.
There are plenty of high skillcap profs and specs that are balanced well.
Really? Please show me one. ANet has so far done a terrible job of balancing, either using a sledge hammer on a finishing nail and destroying entire and unrelated playstyles as collateral damage (RIP GS symbol support) or even worse rendering entire professions irrelevant (cough-engineer)
D/d ele isnt one of them. Then again neither is the bs thief
I agree, but this is a question of toning down the healing of an overly powerful water traitline without gutting the boons and group support eles are built around.
I don’t see ANet actually pulling this off. I fear my time in this game is numbered, because if I see a sledge hammer to yet another high-skill build or profession I’m “SO out of here”.
The other option for ANet is to make condition builds suck less so they become more prevalent:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Hiba-s-counter-to-multi-ele
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
If the devs have three brain cells, they will swap the regen on soothing disruption to something else.
it nerfs 30 water cantrip builds of the following:
- no more access to regen outside of water attunement
- 3 fewer condition removals.it’s a small tweak that will make a world of difference where it matters without gutting elementalist group utility.
I’d say also make dagger water #2 only heal others, not self. This will keep group support builds while nerfing solo builds.
Well, eles are squishy. What would you give them instead of the ability to heal and cleanse conditions?
The removal of regen from water 3 would bring the profession into line on survival as it is.
If you want to remove more healing from 30 water builds without gimping the profession, you need to add passive evasions to traits in the fire and air lines, or better yet to the weapon skills.
Thoughts on that: soothing mists no longer affects you, but all auras now block 3 attacks. Something along that line.
There are a few very targeted ways to tone this build’s survival down without gutting it (my obvious favorite is removing regen from water III), but after watching the utter demolition of symbol greastword support in a huge swing-and-miss on retaliation for guardians, and mesmer shattered strength and phantasm triple-penalty changes a couple patches ago, I am voting “no confidence” in the ANet team.
If they gut this build rather than properly target what makes it “over the top”, I’m done with the game.
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LOL @ internet b— a—es going on about how he should have could have would have done this or that.
the ability to kill anyone in under 5 seconds is an issue in an RPG.
“head-shot” mechanics should be reserved for FPS, and nobody deserves an “iwin button”.
People should have a chance to see what is approaching, and react to it.
I really think ele weapon skills need some innate survivability put into them like mesmer weapons (think mesmer sword, scepter), and the power of the water tree brought down to par.
Removing regen from cantrips (water 3) would go a long way by removing 3 condition removals and 3 fight-resets from bunker 0/10/0/30/30 builds without utterly breaking the synergy of the build itself.
The cantrips will still be good, but they will no longer reset the fight and negate powerful setups opponents take a long time to line up.
The important thing to preserve when doing this is the group-wide utility and boon/aura sharing.
BTW, ANet devs:
If you keep catering to the whiners and nerf, and do so consistently (like you did with mesmers), nobody will bother to actually adapt or try new builds to “break” the existing meta, because they know you’ll come in and nerf what makes them lose.
I know in the old days, before the game went downhill, wow CM’s would come out to nerf threads and tell them precisely how they should L2P, and i’d like to see that here.
“Cant kill an ele? Spec boon stripping you sap! No, I won’t nerf it for your skillless posterior”
Case and point:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Hiba-s-counter-to-multi-ele
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Go on , make an ele go HOM take any random trait , take D/D and go and show us this FORGIVING gameplay!
Are you trying to say D/D thieves are OP compared to D/D eles? Why don’t you go make a thief and 1v1 an ele? Should be an easy fight right?
I’m rock, nerf paper, scissors is fine.
If ANet does anything apart from removing regen from soothing disruption (regen on cantrip use), I’m filing for a refund.
I can use the money I get back from ANet to register my car for the year. I certainly will not regret leaving behind a game where the dev team decides, rather than give proper synergy and group-support to other builds, to take a big steaming crap on the gold standard of what builds in GW2 SHOULD be.
Maybe people wouldn’t be so whiny about boon-based bunkers if ANet made boon stripping more attractive. There are plenty of boon strip builds, but you have to sacrifice EVERYTHING ELSE to build that way which most players find unacceptable.
Still, the elementalist community should not suffer degradation of play experience beacause people don’t want to be “inconvenienced” by being forced to adapt to what is going on around them.
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If they only remove regen from soothing disruption, the 0/10/0/30/30 build will still be quite viable, just not immortal.
It will now be vulnerable to properly timed bursts and boon removals by skilled players.
This is much better than nikkle’s suggestion, which would pidgeon-hole eles into builds that survive less, do less damage than a single stack of bleeding, and provide almost no group support.
Except, SD is really only used on full bunker spec’s and really isn’t the root of the problem.
The casted heals need adjustment because it allows a dodge+water#5 to heal for 5k on top of SoR added 700 plus the ticking of soothing mists and regen from water attunement. If anyone looks at the math I posted above and says bunkers won’t be viable I don’t think I’ll ever persuade you. Still no one has mentioned the attunement changes. I was honestly expecting people to say that was too much of a buff.Can you stop with the over exaggeration? Buffing out dps tree’s while freeing up trait points = more damage. I looked over that video I posted. I would hardly say my damage was just above a single stack of bleeds. I’m currently playing around with S/D, which probably explains why i’m not attached to ZB.
I’m not overexaggerating.
I care about group support, and ditched my mesmer because mesmer didn’t offer group support, despite supposed “OP MESMER BURST” (my mesmer could easily drop 18k into a target in a couple seconds, but wtf how useless I was for group).
What you are suggesting would Utterly – Gut – Ele – Group – Support
If they only remove regen from soothing disruption, the 0/10/0/30/30 build will still be quite viable, just not immortal.
It will now be vulnerable to properly timed bursts and boon removals by skilled players.
This is much better than nikkle’s suggestion, which would pidgeon-hole eles into builds that survive less, do less damage than a single stack of bleeding, and provide almost no group support.
Except, SD is really only used on full bunker spec’s and really isn’t the root of the problem.
Actually, it is the root of the problem.
Nobody is complaining about glass cannon eles (they’re permanent floor stains), or eles with balanced builds (they’re inferior to pretty much everyone), they’re complaining about the unkillable eles that outlast absolutely everything else on the field through insane healing.
If you think any other build besides full bunker is overpowered, you’re playing against scrubs.
I repeat, Zephyr’s boon and Aura Sharing are NOT what make these builds overpowered, and gutting them will gut elementalists, period! – If ANet implements anything close to this, I will put in a refund ticket and have them destroy my account
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Once this brings water into line, we can start doing things like adding a few passive-evasion traits and extra damage to the fire and air lines to make them “not suck”
Sorry for interrupting your conversation but I’d rather see buffs before nerfs, not the other way around. Before nerfing the only viable build for a profession they should first give more options, then nerf it all they want.
If they only remove regen from soothing disruption, the 0/10/0/30/30 build will still be quite viable, just not immortal.
It will now be vulnerable to properly timed bursts and boon removals by skilled players.
This is much better than nikkle’s suggestion, which would pidgeon-hole eles into builds that survive less, do less damage than a single stack of bleeding, and provide almost no group support.
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If you are playing tournaments and can’t identify soothing disruption as the crucial tipping point in survival overpower for ele, you are a lost soul.
:( You had such a respectable post until you edited that line in. Um, I included it in the nerf section, so obviously I know its a problem.
The sharing of the aura’s is the point of the trait. 10 seconds of fury of a adept trait is strong and you know it. Maybe fixing ZB will do enough and shocking cd doesn’t need to be touched, even with aeromancer’s + aura share.
I’m sorry but I don’t see the justification for calling that trait overpowered. Aura access is limited. Let’s compare this to the two 10 point traits that make mind wrack get perma-might-stacks and perma-fury on mesmer. It’s just not overpowered, what it does do is give us a very engaging playstyle and some gear flexibility which is sorely needed due to the fact that berserker gear is declared by the devs themselves to be completely unviable.
The “fix” to ZB is far worse than the shocking aura cd. Neither of these is overpowered.
our HEALING is what is overpowered, and it’s hurting US as well as the game balance.
Nerfing the air line when the issue is an overpowered water line is going 10 miles in the wrong direction, and nerfing our source of group boons is absolutely, mind-bogglingly bad. It would make ele into mesmer – now without the clones.
There needs to be a cooldown on the ability to apply regeneration, and our ability to survive “setup bursts” from other professions, which require skill on their part, needs to be reduced.
Again, this is best done by removing regen from water III (soothing disruption). cantrips already serve as a stun break and provide things like protection, stability, instant movement, or invulnerability. Getting regeneration for the duration of these escapes immediately after nullifying an opponent’s setup burst is absolutely over the top.
Add to that the effects of the grand master trait removing conditions and it becomes absurd.
This is the trait to target.
After that, ele will be in a good place, rather than fundamentally destroyed.
Once this brings water into line, we can start doing things like adding a few passive-evasion traits and extra damage to the fire and air lines to make them “not suck”
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“Except, aura share is still there, elemental attunement is still there spamming boons on everyone”
The boons everyone else receives from us are perfectly balanced, but you want to cut their durations in half.
Yes, let’s cut ele group healing from regen in half.
What? Where did I say this? The only boon duration adjustments are ZB and SD. ZB clearly looks like a bug to me. The regen from SD isn’t the op part, its the vigor + Evasive Arcana. Aoe regen has never been mentioned.
Edit: Don’t know why I care but I play ele. I just started doing tournies with friends after WvW got boring. Here’s me playing with a 0/15/0/25/30 build with soldiers amu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FrtbVXpqdzo#t=132s
Zephyr’s boon applies to everyone in the group. The fury and swiftness ARE a part of our group support, along with the aura share.
The mobility provided to the elementalist counter-balances 10k base HP, zero evasive maneuvers, and the lowest access to aegis in the game. It is counter-balanced by boon strips and by ranged abilities.
If you are playing tournaments and can’t identify soothing disruption as the crucial tipping point in survival overpower for ele, you are a lost soul.
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“Except, aura share is still there, elemental attunement is still there spamming boons on everyone”
The boons everyone else receives from us are perfectly balanced, but you want to cut their durations in half.
Yes, let’s cut ele group healing from regen in half.
let’s make it so people cant benefit from fury and might because they last a brief enough time to never benefit their heavy-hitting attacks.
let’s make swiftness’s duration more useless than mesmer focus.
again: please go back to your thief
I don’t want my profession’s main purpose (group support), and the boons it was balanced around with low HP and defense gutted.
regen removed from water 3 accomplishes the survival balances WITHOUT doing this.
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Yes, let’s break the entire build because you want your thief to be immortal.
Yup I’m a thief. I know how you like to think you’re pro and that’s why you can kill people but it’s your build. Soothing Disruptions no longer apply regen? Really? Do you realize this will break a bunkers condi removal? You accuse me off breaking builds but you do it on a order of magnitude greater.
Yes, it prevents BUNKERING through excessive condie removal and excessive healing. It tones down bunkering “just enough” to remove immortality.
As opposed to you, who want to gut the ele of its very identity by removing the boon and aura support the entire profession was built upon (cutting boon duration in half, are you NUTS?).
What next, making sports cars safer by limiting engine displacement to 1.3 liters?
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Yes, let’s break the entire build because you want your thief to be immortal.
How about simply removing regen from soothing disruption (water major trait III):
this accomplishes the following:
1 – 3 condition removals gone
2 – regen is now applied only when in water
3 – The build’s trait synergy, feel, and group utility are NOT gutted, unlike your ludicrous post Original Poster
Responses to “justification notes”
he nerf’s are aimed at the two spec’s that seem to be causing a lot of pain for players. The nerf to duration of boons from SD and ZB will prevent ele’s from maintaining (near-)permanent boons if they are running +boon duration.
Ele, like guardian, has horribly low HP and base defense because it’s balanced around a permanent stack of boons when traited. Remove those and you have a worthless smear on the ground.
Please, go back to your thief.
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If they nerf ele’s I simple wont play. As long as whinny baddies complain about AoE and their apparent inability to dodge we will have this nerf hanging over our heads.
This about nails it. Rather than fix what needs to be fixed, ANet caters to the lowest common denominator and breaks what few things work.
This is the reason I shelved my mesmer. There was a bug on that class causing 200% mind wrack damage. Instead of fixing that bug , they “apologized” for making mesmer pve “not suck” and hotfixed out the boon stacking that made, for a short time, mesmer support work.
Baddies complain, they knee jerk, people who know how to play pay dearly for it.
byebye mesmer might stacking
byebye viable aoe
byebye to the one viable elementalist build – which SHOULD be the gold standard for everyone else, not broken to match how broken their crappy trait synergy is.
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some sign that you are under its effects would be really good i totally agree with that, a little icon or something as you say.. I really hope that the reason they are not adding a notification is to prevent it being easy for botters to know they have DR and take action.
The botters don’t need to know.
If you reduce the performance of one bot, they’ll just parallelize to 100 bots to make up for it.
Bots don’t get bored. Bots don’t get frustrated. Bots don’t stop playing.
Real, legitimate, human players do.
If killing dragons is an “exploit”, btw, it’s up to ANET to re-design the encounters. They should not destroy the reward system.
For the record, I stopped doing dragons when the chests stopped dropping enough to cover the waypoint cost.