Guild Wars 2

And I want to see posts and screenshots about this! (Please?)

Thanks for the update, Curtis!

Tachenon: ~major thumbs up!~

Rauderi.8706:

…I want one!

Just imagine, a bigger-than-life Rytlock-sempai to follow me around~
/swoon

Yes!

khani.4786:

DarkOcean.8746:

My immersion is broken when Rytlock jumps into the ghost hole in one of the LS instances! I don’t like seeing my character spaz out in the background!

You mean the hole that doesn’t appear? Last few times I’ve done this the ground doesn’t break and Rytlock just jumps into the solid rock. o.o

Hmmmm… Have you submitted an in-game bug report for that?

Skaigash.4715:

GOSU.9574:

Gaile Gray.6029:

So the animations were temporarily removed to be worked on and reincorporated in a way that allowed them to perform normally in the game but to stop (or maybe change) during cinematics. But getting to a place where the animations could be configured on a more fine-grained basis took more time than anticipated.

So the fact it was officially stated some time ago the animation missing was a “bug” is now officially countered with the fact it was removed.

Was kinda hard to sell that an entire frame set of animations going missing was due to a “bug”.

Yeah, it being a “bug” was very strange. But I could go with Gaile’s explanation; I think it’s reasonable. I’ll take it as one of those “we’re upgrading to serve you better” things.

I don’t know what was said previously, but doesn’t “bug” work in the context of this situation? It wasn’t intended that the animations play during particular moments. They played. That sounds bug-ish to me. (Unless you’re suggesting that their not playing was called a “bug” as if someone thought they should be playing rather than that they were intentionally disabled. That could be a simple matter of misunderstanding, misuse of the word, or miscommunication. It seems rather a minor point to me.

Again, for clarity: Because the animations were not appropriate for the setting, they were disabled. They will be re-enabled when they can operate as intended. We don’t have a timeframe for this at the present time.

Dos.7052:

Well English is not my first language and I typed all these from my phones.
So apology ahead if I typed funny language.(oh also appreciate my android auto-spell function :p)

Wow, I’m impressed. On your phone in a non-native language? Well done!

And I happen to feel that LB is not OP, but hey, that’s just me and I’m hardly the expert on the subject. I am willing to fall on my knees and pray to The Six, though, that we don’t see my weapon of choice tweaked too much, if at all!

<—- lifelong Ranger.

KngGilgamesh.3481:

One word of warning, no other MMORPG will suffice after this. They all will lack something.
This is a Point of No Return.

Anyway Welcome!

I see what you did there. ~thumbs up!~

Toroxus.9256:

So, I just finished Echoes of the Past, and I’ll be sure to not include any spoilers here.

Thank you for that! And for sharing your ideas, too.

Shhhhh… don’t tell anyone.

Thank you for the help you’ve given NaNouk, Randulf, dsslive, and CatharticOxymoron. (Great name, btw!)

NaNouk, I hope the advice was helpful. Don’t hesitate to reach out to Customer Support if you need help — they always appreciate the opportunity to lend a hand.

(Oh, and your English is très bon ! )

Love, love this thread. In fact, I had my own “OMG moment” when I read it.

Thanks, guys!

I will share with the team, with pleasure!

Ummm…. shouldn’t y’all be using “spoiler” in the text like AlienMenace did? I feel sort of sad for people reading this. Could you edit to do that? (I feel rather rude jumping into your posts and fixing it. )

Mental Paradox.3845:

I had a lot of fun… but I have one BIG worry.

It all felt forced. Fan-service. I’m afraid this was their way of silencing the whining GW1 fans – and NOT a trend that will continue.

Hang tight, MP. That’s not what this is about.

I’m glad that you’re enjoying Season 2. I love the nods to Guild Wars history, too!

As Colin said, this is really going to be a wonderful season. I’d use the word “epic” but that’s so overdone. Just suffice to say you want to join up.

Bug Fixes:

• Fixed a client crash.
• Fixed a potential crash when opening the Living World unlock chest.
• Fixed an issue in which players who paid to safely enter a bandit camp in the Silverwastes were attackable by normal players.
• Fixed a bug that allowed Imbued Firefly Luminescence to be created multiple times.
• Fixed an issue in which the Not Under My Command achievement was incorrectly tracking the survival of Caithe’s squad, as opposed to the player’s.
• Fixed an issue in which party members would not receive mail immediately upon accepting credit for the completion of “Caithe’s Reconnaissance Squad.”

Have you guys genuinely never seen something come out of a CDI? Have you truly never seen changes that were outlined, discussed, and honed in the forge of the CDI system?

Xillllix — we don’t talk about what we’re working on, but by the same token, not talking doesn’t mean that something is and will be completely untouched, right? How many times has something rolled out that has really surprised players, and in a good way? “I didn’t even know they were thinking about that” comes up quite often. Or “I saw some talk about this a while back, but didn’t expect to see it in the game.” I am not saying everything is under development, but just wanting to point to the fact that lots can happen behind the scenes because that is worth noting and is backed by the historical evidence of past updates.

BirdSong.2541:

Gaile Gray.6029:

I think you’ve said a lot, SpellOfIniquity, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

One persons thoughts out of 10 unfortunately.
Those are not good odds.
Still <3 you though Gaile

<3 you too, BirdSong. I read the whole thread, but there were words in Spell’s comments that reverberated with me. I can’t pull every post and comment, but sometimes, it’s nice to give a thumbs up to…. Oh you know what I mean, eh?

Xillllix — understood. Thanks for the summing up, I think you did it fairly (and that’s not always easy when someone feels strongly about a subject) and well.

Hey, Deli, I’m listening to everyone. And hey, I misread what you said and thought you were in favor of freebies. Ok, gotcha!

Hi and welcome!! I was a new player just under a year ago myself, and really appreciated how much less toxic the community was in comparison to some other MMOs. The community is, overall, super collaborative and chill. Hope you enjoy yourself out there, and see you in game~

Marge.4035:

Is it Fred Tatasciore again? I didn’t recorded the cinematics yesterday, and I never played as Priory, so it’s my first encounter with him since GW1. If someone could confirm, I’d be there in the corner, “nostalgiaing”.

Yup. Fred’s back.

Is it even possible, given the changes that came about in the world?

Jonnyrok.2876:

Been playing wow for 7 years, and just purchased gw2 deluxe. Im so excited to start playing. Wow community just isnt there no more, majority are rude, selfish ill mannered player base . Glad I decided to swap up.

Welcome to Guild Wars 2, Jonnyrok. I think you will really love the game, and I agree, the community is exceptional. Sure, as someone mentioned, you might come across the occasional person who behaves offensively. If on the forums, just hit the little flag in the lower right and we’ll take a look at the post. If in the game, click the player (to select him/her) then right-click the image of the player at the top of your screen and you’ll see the option to use “report.” Choose a reason and a CS Agent will give what happened a review and take whatever action is needed. It doesn’t happen often, but if it does, we’d like the chance to make this even better.

Basically, it’s a beautiful game in an amazing world with some pretty darn nice people living there.

Wishing you all the best in Tyria!

Blaeys.3102:

Simple request for everyone – once you finish writing your posts, go back and read it as if it were being written to you. If it includes snarky comments, any kind of name calling at all, condescending statements or anything else hateful, cut those lines out before you hit post.

They get in the way of the actual conversation and they’re going to end up getting the thread closed and leaving a bad impression of a potential raiding community with the developers. Neither is something anyone should desire.

This.
Please.
I read the forums every day, as does Chris. And he puts a lot of his own time into the CDIs. (He doesn’t know I’m writing this, but I’m writing this, you can be sure!)

My bullet list for today:

• The forums are a wonderful thing.
• The CDIs are a great thing—some of the best that the forums can offer.
• The people involved all have, I truly believe, the game’s bests interests at heart.
• I want, more importantly we want, the forums to be healthy, and a safe place for people to express themselves even when in complete, heartfelt disagreement with another forum member. Or even when you disagree with a GW2 Team member.
• The best way to accomplish that is to write, read, re-read, and then hit “submit.”
• And always, always keep in mind that when it comes to text, it’s far too easy to come off wrong, to be completely mistaken about the content or the tone of a comment.

If you read this, thanks.
If you act upon this, thank you even more.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled CDI, with this request:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Your top three priorities can be anything you like as long as they pertain to raiding.

Chris

Kanebrake.6192:

Neptune.2570:

If WvW is dead, the community killed it, not anet.
How can there be different outcomes and new fights each week when every server is tier locked because we, as a community, have stacked servers so much.

Anet charging $35+ per transfer is what causes stacking. If they didn’t charge for transfers or were much more reasonable about the cost of it, then you’d see guilds and people moving around a lot more.

Interesting comment. Do you think that free transfers would reduce stacking? That things would just naturally even out over time?

I’m genuinely interested in this topic and would like to get some insight into it from our players’ perspective. (For clarity, I’m not on the WvW Team; y;’all know that. I just found the theory interesting.)

Baldrick — there are a lot of things on the dev backlog, not least of which are responses to player input, questions, suggestions, and concerns expressed through the CDIs. I don’t want anyone to believe the CDIs are just words. They are far more meaningful and helpful to the team that you may see right away. We’ve seen changes through CDI input; we’ll see more in the future.

I think you’ve said a lot, SpellOfIniquity, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Boottspurr.9184:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Please list your top three priorities for raiding (Challenging, Instanced, Cooperative, Content)

Mine are:

1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

I will leave the thread open until folks have had a chance to put there top three forward and then I will put forward a proposal on behalf of the CDI group to the team.

Thanks,

Chris

I’m a bit confused about the question. Do you want our top three priorities for how raids are designed? Because by the example priorities you gave, it looks like you mean just the top three priorities for a team to be able to beat a raid…

Otherwise wouldn’t “Knowledge>Skill>Group Setup” just be one design priority? :P

Hi Boot,

Your top three priorities can be anything you like as long as they pertain to raiding.

Chris

Hi All,

Please list your top three priorities for raiding (Challenging, Instanced, Cooperative, Content)

Mine are:

1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

I will leave the thread open until folks have had a chance to put there top three forward and then I will put forward a proposal on behalf of the CDI group to the team.

Thanks,

Chris

dlonie.6547:

I was under the impression that argumentative/off-topic/sphincter-gazing posts would be admonished/deleted to keep the discussion on point?

Personally, I’d rather see that plan put into action instead of shutting down the discussion. More challenging instanced content is something that the game has sorely needed for a while, and I’d hate to see the CDI shut down over a few narrowminded individuals.

Hi,

I am replying to you but talking to all those as well who have been frustrated with the lack of collaboration and maturity in this CDI.

We take the CDI very seriously and it is clear that whilst most CDIs have been extremely valuable and born lots of fruit that the maturity and professional levels required can not be ensured by the guidelines I have set.

I am therefore going to request that the CDI moving forward have its own area where anyone can enter and join in the design sessions but that those who find it hard to focus on the spirit and rules of the CDI can be locked out.

This is the only fair approach because the rules of our forums are different to those of the CDI and thus behavior that would be deemed acceptable on the forums may not be in the CDI and thus one should not be held to the same rules across both areas.

I will update when I have more info. Thanks to all those who participated and followed the rules and please understand that tons of useful info was gleaned and that your efforts were not wasted.

Chris

What level are you? I believe the issue is that the next story step unlocks at L30, so the mail isn’t sent until then. (There’s a rare bug where the “Read your mail” step sometimes appears at lower levels.) If you’re L30 or higher, your mailbox probably has too much mail in it, and it’s preventing new mail from appearing. Clear out your inbox, and log out/in to resend the mail.

Jigain.8231:

Hopefully someone can answer this – can you still hear it when it’s covered by both traditional sheathed weapons like the shield, as well as more specialized things like engineer weapon kits?

Yes he works when covered by shields or engineer kits. He also works on clones (to keep the enemy guessing) and works while transformed.

Zaxares.5419:

His dialogue is hilarious, and I’m awfully tempted to buy one, but I have the feeling his non-stop chattering might get on my nerves after a while.

Clicking ‘hide backpack’ in the equipment panel shuts him up without having to change out packs. -(Edit: My bad, the hide backpack flag is supposed to quiet him but doesn’t yet. That’s an update coming in a future patch)

There is already a general camera improvements thread and first person has been mentioned as a desired feature already. You can find that thread here.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-player-camera-improvements/page/3#post4493194

Morning,

Ok I have been up all night reading the posts and thinking about this CDI.

To be frank this is not a good CDI, specifically because whilst some folks are trying to be collaborative and have valuable discussion others are just bullying with their different agendas.

I have always said that if a CDI loses its value on both sides that it will be stopped.

So I am at some what of a loss. I can’t tell anymore if it is of value to this group. Whilst it certainly has been valuable for us it has been extremely time consuming to get to the good stuff.

So I will leave it up to you folks. If you feel you can work more collaboratively then by all means let me know that you want to carry on.

If you feel that it is a lost cause then I will ask for everyone’s top three priorities for raiding and call it a day.

I want to say thank you very much to all those who tried to follow the rules of the CDI and who had a healthy discussion. I also wanted to say a big thank you to TTS and DnT. We appreciate your feedback.

Chris

Both Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 account support are backed up at the moment due to large ticket volume. We are addressing tickets as quickly as we can. More information about ticket delays can be read here.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.

first of all thats a content problem. the pve content we have is not really challenging and difficult to beat, except when you are soloing stuff.

now let me give you one example.
imagine in a 15 man raid a boss has a really tight enrage timer and 15 players are required to use dps gear and optimal rotations to kill the boss before the enrage timer hits.
now in this fight there is healing required, more than just your personal healing skill.
how will players deal with this? they will heal each other with water fields, defensive boons.
so EVERYONE in the raid will be required to provide as much support as possible, teamwork and on top of that dps.
or in other words, everyone has to play well and pull their weight.
and all of that happens while players are dodging dangerous hits and abilities.

now lets say 12 people are required to use optimal rotations and dps gear and you have 3 dedicated healer. will this make the encounter more challenging and fun?
it will actually reduce teamwork, coordination and the requirement that players try to play as good as possible, because focusing on only one thing is much easier to do, and doesnt need as much teamwork.

actually situation 1) is exactly why i love the gw2 combat system.

people always say “just dps, just dps, just dps”. what they dont understand, its exactly the other way around.
its support, support, support with the nice bonus that you can deal alot of dps on top of that at the same time.

how much dps you can deal on top of providing tons of support depends ONLY on how good the player is at the game. a player who doesnt react properly, is inexperienced, and doesnt know when and what to dodge needs defensive gear to survive.
a great player doesnt need defensive gear, because he is learning how to react to X situation faster, how to react proberly etc………

this is actually just amazing. because its entirely based on player skill.

i dont know if you understand what im trying to explain here. but i can recommend every player who thinks “only dps dps dps, no support, no cc” to learn to solo arah paths in berserker gear. once you have done that and reached a certain skill level in gw2, you will look at the game and the combat system from a very different perspective that not alot of players seem to understand even after 2 years of playing the game.

I agree 100%. I now don’t understand why folks are arguing.

Cris

Also going to +1 this post, and agree with Chris. It’s difficult to find the relevant posts through pages of arguing.

I’m trying to get caught up on this thread (looks like Chris is beating me!) but I’m also about to head out on vacation so I’m going AWOL until next week. Play nice and pending this is still going I’ll jump back in to the discussions on Monday.

moiraine.2753:

Chris,

I want to ask you something.Will Defiance be redesigned?Is there any plan for it at all?Because right now it is removing the need of any CC in the fights.If raids come will interrupts,stuns,fear become an actual mechanic?Will they be more useful from now?

All I can say on this is we have been talking about it internally and trying to come up with different solutions that make CC valuable without allowing players to “stun lock” creatures (which would be a very real problem if we did not have Defiance). I can’t say any more on that at this time, so here’s a better question for you:

If we removed Defiance, how would you propose a replacement that makes CC (interrupts, stuns, fears etc) valuable without creating a situation that allows players to CC a creature to death.

For assistance with your Guild Wars account, you should file a support ticket using the Guild Wars Support site . Please be sure to select “Account Issue” from the drop-down menu to ensure that your ticket is filed with the correct department.

We’re looking into this one, looks like it’s not working properly, thanks folks!

Just to clarify here, the piece that plays in Glint’s Lair is indeed a new version of the original Guild Wars piece “Crystal Oasis”. It’s not really a remix, more of a “reimagining”. It’s mostly the same, but with a couple small changes to the orchestration/arrangement, and a slightly longer intro. Also, the orchestra is a live recording with a few light synth elements mixed in, whereas the original version is completely made up of virtual instruments.

The suggestion to redo it was designer and occasional composer Leif Chappelle’s. He thought it would tie in nicely to the area where Glint’s Lair was in the original Guild Wars, and I agreed with him. I’m glad people are making the connection.

spoj.9672:

Its actually very encouraging to see Chris understanding and agreeing with NoTriggers posts. Many of us have had our doubts about whether the devs are on the same page as us or atleast understand our side even as a minority. So thanks for the encouraging comments Chris and Crystal. I now believe good raid content can come out of this.

We should probably move away from the gear discussion though as that always invites arguments. So lets move it back on topic.

I don’t mind us continuing to discuss this area at all. I just think (or hope) that we now have a good spring board to launch from to discuss the tenets of what would make a great encounter now.

And sorry for not jumping in earlier, I care very much about raiding and have done so for coming on 20 years now. I just didn’t want to cramp everyone’s style.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.

first of all thats a content problem. the pve content we have is not really challenging and difficult to beat, except when you are soloing stuff.

now let me give you one example.
imagine in a 15 man raid a boss has a really tight enrage timer and 15 players are required to use dps gear and optimal rotations to kill the boss before the enrage timer hits.
now in this fight there is healing required, more than just your personal healing skill.
how will players deal with this? they will heal each other with water fields, defensive boons.
so EVERYONE in the raid will be required to provide as much support as possible, teamwork and on top of that dps.
or in other words, everyone has to play well and pull their weight.
and all of that happens while players are dodging dangerous hits and abilities.

now lets say 12 people are required to use optimal rotations and dps gear and you have 3 dedicated healer. will this make the encounter more challenging and fun?
it will actually reduce teamwork, coordination and the requirement that players try to play as good as possible, because focusing on only one thing is much easier to do, and doesnt need as much teamwork.

As presented, situation 1 is preferable.

NoTrigger.8396:

actually situation 1) is exactly why i love the gw2 combat system.

people always say “just dps, just dps, just dps”. what they dont understand, its exactly the other way around.
its support, support, support with the nice bonus that you can deal alot of dps on top of that at the same time.

I agree. The problem is there is that they’re looking at the stats the game has to offer, the builds people recommend, and they only see: DPS focus, DPS focus, DPS focus.
That’s what causes them to wonder: What about the rest?
What they don’t realise, is that the rest is already so powerful it doesn’t need boosting, regardless of whether this is even possible or not.

And I do strongly believe it should be possible to have both a high DPS output and a high support value at the same time.

NoTrigger.8396:

how much dps you can deal on top of providing tons of support depends ONLY on how good the player is at the game. a player who doesnt react properly, is inexperienced, and doesnt know when and what to dodge needs defensive gear to survive.
a great player doesnt need defensive gear, because he is learning how to react to X situation faster, how to react proberly etc………

this is actually just amazing. because its entirely based on player skill.

Now that, I fundamentally disagree with. I don’t think anyone needs defensive gear because they are a bad player. I think they could learn to play great without it just fine.

I’m all for skilled play, but, and I may be wrong here, I also think tanky players should be skill-based rather than just stats. I’d like their stats to be meaningful in the same way DPS stats are, by emphasing skill over just standing there and getting hit.

NoTrigger.8396:

i dont know if you understand what im trying to explain here. but i can recommend every player who thinks “only dps dps dps, no support, no cc” to learn to solo arah paths in berserker gear. once you have done that and reached a certain skill level in gw2, you will look at the game and the combat system from a very different perspective that not alot of players seem to understand even after 2 years of playing the game.

Yes, I may secretly be mentally handicapped or something that prevents me from understanding other human beings.

I can recommend learning to solo Arah to anyone. It’s a lot of fun, and it doesn’t cost you anything now repair costs are no more.

I don’t know if I agree about PVT AOE Heal wars just standing there. It depends on the encounter and I certainly can’t just stand still in fractals (-:

Anyway even if I am wrong we have got to the point in the discussion where I think we can agree that any perceived issues can be handled by the design of the encounter and the balance thereof.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Naetell.3815:

phys.7689:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

its not that because you wear berserk, you are automatically a better player. Its that the better you are, the less need you have for the defense.

You say with your tank gear, the encounter is too easy, and you cannot die. What is the advantage of tank gear?
Tank gear in this game exists primarily to set your handicap in battle. the more tank gear you have the more mistakes you can make. I am not saying every player in tank gear does, but thats the main advantage of it.

I’d argue against that on the premise of creating a fake difficulty.
The game is plenty forgiving even in full glass. The prevalence of tank gear in the game (and this is simplifying and generalising it by a lot) gives players the idea that it is not only okay, but expected to wear some amount of it. There is no reason to have more than 100% survivability.
Better yet, if the game is built on the premise that all damage can be avoided, then this tanky gear is hampering people’s learning process by reducing the need to learn how to dodge.
From that point of view, it is hard to defend tanky gear at all.

But as a PVT War my goal is to ensure the rest of the group doesn’t get downed so we can win as my DPS is poor. I love this role and even when I dodge effectively there are still plenty of attacks that catch me off guard. So therefore I see my armor and traits as a way to better support my group.

It doesn’t matter if i can stay alive ad infinitum (which I can’t). What matters is that I can help my group to help us all win.

Chris

The percieved problem here is not that the PVT warrior (heal shouts) is an ineffective build. (It’s not, it’s one of the most powerful support builds in the game, I’d argue)
The point is that the sacrificed DPS do not mathematically align with the support gained. You could use the same build in PPF or VTP gear with the same level of support given.
Theoretically, the dodge alone + the self-healing ability you have are enough to make it through an encounter as encounter time drops the more DPS you deal. The longer any encounter takes, the greater the theoretical chance becomes of anyone making a mistake, and the added survivability mattering.
Tequatl as an encounter tries to balance the equation by taking Precision and Ferocity out of the equation, and that works to some degree, but this does tend to annoy DPS players.

Now the real questions and issues begin when looking at stats that actually do matter for support. Healing and Boon Duration exist, they are on gear. (Not many in the case of BD, admittedly) However, these stats do not affect support in the matter DPS is affected by gear. Instead, sufficient support is added without these stats according to many experienced dungeon players.

But maybe this is just me thinking too much like a theorycrafter than as an actual player.

I think your comments are well made. And therefore what I would say is that the notion of support, co-operation and a role is very much dependent on the kind of encounter that is built then with a delta of skill and armor and traits that is not as important as knowledge and co-operation in said raid encounter but important none the less.

I suppose that this is the core of the approach I would like us to discuss.

knowledge>skill>character setup>group number

And the reason group number is last is because I think that by following the paradigm we discussed and in the confines of this proposal that player’s could complete a raid with less than the recommended amount by increasing their acumen in Knowledge>skill and character setup.

Chris

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.

first of all thats a content problem. the pve content we have is not really challenging and difficult to beat, except when you are soloing stuff.

now let me give you one example.
imagine in a 15 man raid a boss has a really tight enrage timer and 15 players are required to use dps gear and optimal rotations to kill the boss before the enrage timer hits.
now in this fight there is healing required, more than just your personal healing skill.
how will players deal with this? they will heal each other with water fields, defensive boons.
so EVERYONE in the raid will be required to provide as much support as possible, teamwork and on top of that dps.
or in other words, everyone has to play well and pull their weight.
and all of that happens while players are dodging dangerous hits and abilities.

now lets say 12 people are required to use optimal rotations and dps gear and you have 3 dedicated healer. will this make the encounter more challenging and fun?
it will actually reduce teamwork, coordination and the requirement that players try to play as good as possible, because focusing on only one thing is much easier to do, and doesnt need as much teamwork.

actually situation 1) is exactly why i love the gw2 combat system.

people always say “just dps, just dps, just dps”. what they dont understand, its exactly the other way around.
its support, support, support with the nice bonus that you can deal alot of dps on top of that at the same time.

how much dps you can deal on top of providing tons of support depends ONLY on how good the player is at the game. a player who doesnt react properly, is inexperienced, and doesnt know when and what to dodge needs defensive gear to survive.
a great player doesnt need defensive gear, because he is learning how to react to X situation faster, how to react proberly etc………

this is actually just amazing. because its entirely based on player skill.

i dont know if you understand what im trying to explain here. but i can recommend every player who thinks “only dps dps dps, no support, no cc” to learn to solo arah paths in berserker gear. once you have done that and reached a certain skill level in gw2, you will look at the game and the combat system from a very different perspective that not alot of players seem to understand even after 2 years of playing the game.

I agree 100%. I now don’t understand why folks are arguing.

Cris

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Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

And I absolutely agree.

There are plenty of ways with our core mechanics that we can make player’s have roles. There are many ways we can make player’s provide a true support role. And there are many ways that we can create new types of raid encounter experiences based on our core mechanics.

Chris

I agree, and I can theorise various paths myself, but there’s this idea amongst players that gear is by and large useless because of the action-based combat system, and therefor gear does not add to roles.
Personally, I think it’s the combination of various factors that have led to this, but I’d like to challenge people’s ideas about what they think is in the game, compared to what there actually is in the game. GW2 has a foundation that allows for more than the same old rehashed roles, and I believe it can be made possible for all classes to play as any role. And I think that ultimately, it should be a combination of skills+traits+gear+encounter that should determine someone’s role, with the ability to swap 3 of those out any time they are out of combat.

Right ok. So I am now up to speed.

It is 100% true that gear and traits don’t make that much difference vs. the ability to read the encounter and be mobile due to the way much of the game was balanced (on purpose). Gear and traits do make players way more efficient though in the same encounters and there are many examples of this all of over youtube.

There are a number of encounters in the game where your traits and gear do make a difference this is 100% provable and it is this paradigm on which challenging co-ordinated encounters be built from. It is simply a case of dialing up the challenge and creating encounters that require strategy and teamwork. The core is 100% there and there is a huge amount of opportunity here to make really unique forms of raiding.

We as a group just can’t seem to get passed this hump though and are spinning our wheels.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

phys.7689:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

its not that because you wear berserk, you are automatically a better player. Its that the better you are, the less need you have for the defense.

You say with your tank gear, the encounter is too easy, and you cannot die. What is the advantage of tank gear?
Tank gear in this game exists primarily to set your handicap in battle. the more tank gear you have the more mistakes you can make. I am not saying every player in tank gear does, but thats the main advantage of it.

I’d argue against that on the premise of creating a fake difficulty.
The game is plenty forgiving even in full glass. The prevalence of tank gear in the game (and this is simplifying and generalising it by a lot) gives players the idea that it is not only okay, but expected to wear some amount of it. There is no reason to have more than 100% survivability.
Better yet, if the game is built on the premise that all damage can be avoided, then this tanky gear is hampering people’s learning process by reducing the need to learn how to dodge.
From that point of view, it is hard to defend tanky gear at all.

But as a PVT War my goal is to ensure the rest of the group doesn’t get downed so we can win as my DPS is poor. I love this role and even when I dodge effectively there are still plenty of attacks that catch me off guard. So therefore I see my armor and traits as a way to better support my group.

It doesn’t matter if i can stay alive ad infinitum (which I can’t). What matters is that I can help my group to help us all win.

Chris

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni, it sounds like you’re opposed to any sort of unique rewards for raiding. It also sounds like you’re opposed to raiding in a general sense.

So now that we have established that you disagree with the concept of raiding in guild wars 2, could you kindly exit the discussion so people who wish to be constructive and topical can continue on with the Raid CDI?

I don’t disagree with the idea of raiding in GW2, so long as it is NOT like raiding in other games, ie “pinnacle content” that all players are expected to participate in eventually if they want to be relevant to the endgame. I think that if they want to add raiding as a purely optional element to the game, that’s fine, I just want assurances that they have no intention of shoehorning non-raider players into the raid portion of the game by requiring raiding to achieve various general milestones.

I believe that it’s important to have this voice clearly expressed in the CDI discussion, because raiding is not just about those who participate in it, it also has to do with all the other players in the game. If at any time the devs would care to make a clear stance on this issue, making it absolutely clear that there will not be ANY rewards that can only be earned via raiding, and that there will be no efforts to coerce non-raiders into the raiding element of the game (beyond some minimal “try it once, get a prize, and then you can move on if it’s not for you” element), then I’m happy to bow out, but until then, I think it’s important to always keep the holistic game in mind.

If the question is should there be raid exclusive rewards then I think we should absoluty be ok to discuss this. This is the whole point of the CDI.

This said not everyone is going to agree in a healthy debate and that is perfectly ok. Lets just be respectful in our discussions (And this is aimed at everyone and not aimed at anyone in particular)

Chris

Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

Do you remember the first times you did Tequatl as a glass cannon?

Are you saying that you were never downed in the front raid group?

Now that folks understand how to use the turrets and warriors drop banners do you die less?

Chris

The new tequatl was an interesting experience the first days actually. I first went on my full glass thief, figured out the jump or dodge over waves thing to melee him, and then promptly got downed by a poison cloud. Other players rushed in to help me up, and died as well because of it.

It was an experience unlike any other I’d had in GW2 before that point.

Ultimately, Tequatl’s timer ran out and people lamented the ‘insane difficulty’, but I was laughing all the way from waypoint to dragon and back.

I then logged on my guard, also in full glass, and I found the clouds weren’t as deadly anymore. Aegis + learning to anticipate the clouds made it a lot easier. Stability for the waves was a good one too.
Still, bone wall happened and at some point we got massacred by a group of risen attacking in the back of the, now mostly ranged, zerg.

From then on, I’ve always ran Tequatl on my full glass guard. I didn’t even bother buying him soldiers gear or anything, and rather than lamenting with the others in chat, I grabbed a turret and tried to learn how to use it as quickly as possible.
I then joined Gandara’s front-line groups in killing Tequatl, and after the patch was over and most went on to do other things, me and two others remained and founded DV, for the express purpose of coordinating these events.
I learned how to lead, I wrote one of the tutorials on turret use, and we went on.

Am I still downed while leading Tequatl sometimes? Sure, and I always make sure to swim back as soon as possible if there are no instant resses around.
Do I feel like I don’t have enough health to lead the front-line zerg even in full glass? No, I feel fine actually. The clouds don’t oneshot, and standing still in them really shouldn’t happen, especially with wall of reflection covering everyone.

Do I die less than at first? Of course, that’s the nature of learning an encounter. The same should hold true for raiding.

And I absolutely agree.

There are plenty of ways with our core mechanics that we can make player’s have roles. There are many ways we can make player’s provide a true support role. And there are many ways that we can create new types of raid encounter experiences based on our core mechanics.

And therefore to be more precise the specific point i am making is that I don’t get downed (PVT Shout Heal War) (often) (In Teq) and certainly no more or less than I did when the encounter first came out. This is because my build is the way it is. However I soon realized that this was of no use to me without supporting the rest of the forward raid group and that was awesome! Because raiding should be all about co-operative challenging content, and that when you finally complete it the whole group is screaming with joy because it was a culmination of everyone’s knowledge and skill.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

And as some guidance. We can tune mobs to behave and require any strategy we want in raiding. This is why I asked that we take the core mechanics of GW2 and build on that and not look to other games or the current balance of our open world maps to dictate encounter strategy and player behavior.

Chris

Chris,

Maybe it would help if you give a little definition regarding what you mean by core mechanics. Are we on the right track with this kind of approach – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/25#post4535356 ?

If not, maybe a little direction and examples will spur the conversation.

Yep that is exactly what I mean.

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

Do you remember the first times you did Tequatl as a glass cannon?

Are you saying that you were never downed in the front raid group?

Now that folks understand how to use the turrets and warriors drop banners do you die less?

Chris

And note these are honest questions and not me being rude.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

Do you remember the first times you did Tequatl as a glass cannon?

Are you saying that you were never downed in the front raid group?

Now that folks understand how to use the turrets and warriors drop banners do you die less?

Chris