Guild Wars 2

Petrus Petraeus.7368:

Don’t know if this has been mentioned before in this thread, but thinking of content that is uniquely GW2 and could be used in designing raids, the first category of content that came to mind was the Guild Puzzle.

Guild Puzzles require cooperation, timing, jumping skills et cetera. ArenaNet has shown they can make amazing Jumping Puzzles and puzzles of other sorts. What I’d love to see in a raid are encounters that force teams to choose: either they can go toe-to-toe with a boss and bash their way to mobs, or they can split up: 5 people attack the boss and mobs and 5 others have to work their way through (jumping) puzzles with punishing AoE and mobs on their path to get to side objectives that if reached help defeat the boss or even are necessary to defeat the boss.

Imagine a giant robot, each limb of which can be turned off independently of each other by turning off a generator of some sorts. Getting there involves a Not So Secret JP style journey on a timer with at least 5 people required to get there to turn off the generator and fight off mini-bosses at stages in between. If they fail to get there in time, the specific limb get enhanced and can’t be shut off anymore, adding to the power of the boss on the ground. Turning off the generator also requires that a certain health treshold of the boss robot is reached by the fighting team on the ground; if they fail to coordinate this, the boss goes rampant.

It’s just a scenario, I’ve seen many people talk about JPs and SAB to pull ideas for raids, my main reason to post is to draw attention to Guild Puzzles and to provide a scenario in which this type of content design could work out in Raids. Am sure others can think of more insane and more detailed scenarios; eager to read them.

Cheers.

Heck. Think of any co-op platformer.

Think also of Natural Selection 2: imagine above robot fight taking place in some kind of giant Inquisition Lab. Have one player take place in some kind of control room, being able to spot enemies, open and close doors, drop bundles, activate and deactivate traps, deploy structures, direct allied NPCs, but doing all this is limited by the amount of resources the other players provide him/her, by collecting batteries or securing accumulators. At the same time they need their ’operator’s’ help to get intel on certain enemy mobs or manipulate the environment and drop the right bundles in certain ways to progress through the lab (imagine puzzles and insane Orcs Must Die type onslaughts that the players ‘in the field’ can’t beat on their own) – there are several ways forward, but if the resources are spent unwisely the progress of the team will stall and the raid will have to restart. I’d like that.

Fun Fact: We had to tone down the original guild puzzles somewhat due to the nature of them being in the open world. It would be a very frustrating experience if the Painting room puzzle failed because someone performed the wrong emote on purpose.

What do you think of using Guild Puzzles as encounters, but ones that have consequences for failing to coordinate properly?

Nick.6972:

Just please top with all this Casual vs Hardcore.
Just because I’m able to play few hours in a week doesn’t mean I like hand holding and hate challenging and punishing content.
Likewise, I could be playing 12 hours/day for 2 years straight role playing and exploring without even touching dugeons, fractals, spvp or wvw.

I’m a few pages/days behind, but I would like to bring up this post again for the sake of keeping things on track.

I’ve seen the terms casual and hardcore thrown around a bunch in this thread. Those terms are too loaded and are going to have different meanings for different players. This thread is about brainstorming what raids could be in GW2.

Instead I propose we stick to using our own experiences as a gamer with regards to skill and play time when it comes to raiding.

This is really helpful! Thanks for all your hard work in putting this together.

Thanks all for taking the time to read my posts on where I think we should be focusing. The current direction and focus is much better.

Note: Comments about UI, targeting etc are all really valid but we will discuss them once we have a firmer foundation in regard to player/mob activity and game state in regard to core combat and movement.

Chris

VodCom.6924:

Sytherek.7689:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The Casual vs. Hardcore argument is not in the spirit of the CDI as you know, and I mean this in regard to those on both side of the fence who can’t see that we aren’t even at the stage where this is even worth discussing.

Chris, raiding is a social activity.

Social dynamics will determine whether your mechanics “work.” If you choose mechanics that do not support a broad social dynamic, raiding in GW2 will fail for the population at large.

You’ve stated that GW2 raiding should “fit” with the overall philosophy of the game. I agree. But you’ve put the cart before the horse IMO.

We need to decide what the social aspects of raiding are before designing mechanics.

No offense to you but the social aspect of anything comes AFTER the said thing is released. It is not something you can discuss in advance. I can slap you an entire wall of text in the face explaining to you how a well designed raid can solve the issue of casu vs hardocre.

And btw The summary is up: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Guild-Raiding-The-condensed-edition-2-19/first#post4531399

Great work Vod you are so helpful to the CDI.

I really appreciate everything you are doing and I know you don’t have much free time at the moment.

chris

Great work Vod you are so helpful to the CDI.

I really appreciate everything you are doing and I know you don’t have much free time at the moment.

chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t think I have anything left to add, being by and large a casual player who used to raid before raids really took off in WoW and other games. I’ve pretty much said everything I could think of on how to handle things (without going into detail just setting up the whole framework) and it’s apparently not in the direction people want to take things so . . .

I don’t think raids, however they are added, are going to be of either use or interest to me. And I don’t think those who would do raids are going to see me as being of use, or interested in allowing me to join in.

Have fun, everyone.

Tobias,

You have always been of huge value in the CDIs. I would ask that you at least hang around and see how the conversation evolves. The Casual vs. Hardcore argument is not in the spirit of the CDI as you know, and I mean this in regard to those on both side of the fence who can’t see that we aren’t even at the stage where this is even worth discussing.

I am asking the CDI group to concentrate on the core combat and mobility of the game. I am asking folks to think like systems and mechanics designers and essentially take the core foundation of the game and theory-craft and discuss how these systems and mechanics evolve into challenging collaborative instanced content.

This is the focus that will give us answers about what raiding could be in GW2. Trying to start at the end by talking about casual vs hardcore is pointless and is of no use to the way we work as a CDI group.

Therefore I would ask that you hang around and see how things evolve and I would ask others who are new to the CDI that this is about Game Design and not emotional uncollaborative opinionated bullying.

Chris

Symph.8407:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Regarding 1, are you talking about reward progression or physical progression through the raid instance?

Both Symph. Thanks for asking.

Chris

Dalanor.5387:

moiraine.2753:

Dalanor.5387:

Balsa.3951:

I have a question

Ppl say nobody should be carried/ pull there weight in those raids.

So how is that monitored/ controlled ?

Without a dps meter how we know who is been carried by 20 people?

By not inviting strangers in the group and play with people who you know well.

Raids must never be made only for people that you know.They have to be made with having in mind the pugs too.You can’t know every random pug that you invite your group out there.

Dps meter/Recount and inspect function is a must for a MMO.If it lacks those things then you can’t be certain who you will be grouped with.In other MMOs i can fast look through a few tabs – gear/achievements/progression + dps meter.

Pugs will be able to do such content after a while when tactics become well known and they get the neccessary equipment (at least in other games but for a degree it’s true in GW2 too, just think about Teq and PVT gear). Hell after a year pugs are still unable to do Teq most of the time not to mention the Wurm …
Back in the days we could manage to do even 25 man raids in WoW because we socialized and keep contact with people who we liked and has at least a decent skill to go through content together. If something RL issue kept someone away of course a pug was invited with a proper advertisement and filtering.

But sadly the proposals here mostly wish for such “hard” content where everybody is able to join with every kind of build and skill level and experience and still go through it which i find both saddening and hilarious. Either it’s hard or so pug friendly that they faceroll through it easily. Both simply can’t happen. Period.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

1. Skins, other visual effects upon further completition (the infusion idea that came up multiple times), maybe vanity items. Titles based on achievements and achievements that enforces proper playing (eg: Flawless Defense, Above the Waves at Teq) instead of party griefing and neglecting group succes (eg: Tail Flail at Teq).

2. I’ll ask a question instead. Do you find the 5 target aoe cap on buffs and boons a proper mechanic in raid environment? Wouldn’t that cause problems in party compositions and design overall? What i mean currently 1 warrior per group is essential if you want to buff your whole raid or guardian per group is essential if you want to cover defensive abilities and so on. Of course it’s only problematic when every raid member is at the same place but i hope you get what i mean.

ps: Fix the camera please. :/

Hi Dalanor,

Regarding your question:

I do think the AOE cap is something that will has to be considered in this raid proposal and discussion in regard to player strategy and encounter design. Questions like this are great.

We have an existing core DNA of foundational core combat and movement systems and mechanics in the game that we can discuss that will promote great discussion and ideation and it is this DNA that will form the back bone of the proposal. The more we focus on this the sooner we will make progress in the CDI.

Chris

Conski Deshan.2057:

Proposal Overview
Possible Raid scenarios and outlines: Part 1: Arah and Dwarven

Goal of Proposal
To lay out possible raids with some descriptions.

Proposal Functionality

City of Arah: The central sections of the city have been breached due to the efforts of the pact and can now be explored:
Visuals: A less destroyed section of Arah (maybe magically protected from wear and tear etc. With some of the skyscrapers you can see when fighting zhaitan present too.
Raid Effect: Vile Maisma: the thick stenches and corrupting atmosphere makes healing magics less effective : healing reduced 33%.
Events/steps:
Zhaitan shard: A piece of zhaitan radiates magic in this area raising corpses and imbuing them with necrotic powers. Seal the shard or drain it of magic.
The Vault of relics: A vault filled with powerful relics, most of which have been absorbed/drained by zhaitan, save for X. Its mesmer properties cause your party to become separated, can you rejoin and overcome its effects.
College of Arah: Experimental creatures are contained within can you survive?
Bosses (in order): Spawn of Zhaitan , Guardian of the Vault, Mesmeric construct, Grounds keeper, Delta , Omega and Zeta (three o boss), Dean of Undeath.

Remnants of the Dwarfs: An untouched dwarven facility has been opened by priory explorers. Find out what you can.
Raid Effect: Musty Air: Endurance is halved (1 dodge)
Events/Steps:
Dwarven Gauntlet: Filled with traps, false passages and a constantly changing pathway to prevent entry into this mysterious old facility.
The repository: A collection of buildings containing dwarven knowledge and ancient weapons. Investigate but be wary of guardians.
The Depths: A spacious sub-basement rough huen and recently attached to a natural vast cavern., Watch your step or you may plummet to your death.
Bosses in order: Dredge demolition team, The Gatekeeper, Fragments of the dwarves, The Librarian, Crazed stone dwarf , Jormungand (giant thing that made the passage).

I haven’t attached boss mechanics because I’ve already made 7 posts on potential ones.

Edit: woops was typing this and did’nt see Chris’s post.

It is all good thanks Conski. You have put multiple mechanics based ideas forward and this frames them well.

Chris

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Dalanor.5387:

Balsa.3951:

I have a question

Ppl say nobody should be carried/ pull there weight in those raids.

So how is that monitored/ controlled ?

Without a dps meter how we know who is been carried by 20 people?

By not inviting strangers in the group and play with people who you know well.

Also I can safely say that we do not need to discuss DPS meters in this proposal.

Chris

Good Morning All,

So far the thread has been very good. But it seems overnight, for no real reason at all, the collaboration, maturity and value of the thread has plummeted. I want to nip this in the bud so let me make some points:

1: The ‘I am more skilled than you’ commentary is boring and of no use whatsoever.
2: The analogy used in one of the posts is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated.
3: We like to see discussion and proposals from different types of players and we are more than capable of drawing our own conclusions.
6: I have stated many many times that this CDI is about Challenging content.
7: If we don’t get back to collaborative and respectful discussion then I will close the CDI.

Chris

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Chris Whiteside.6102:

Boottspurr.9184:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hehe you are definitely not late. I can tell you from experience this CDI is going to last a long time which I am more than happy about.

The CDI group or only just starting to settle down into our first topics which is fine but you can gauge CDI time from that.

Chris

17 pages of Settling Down… WOW I can’t. how do you. reeaadd it all? New-found respect, Chris. New-found respect.

Because it is awesome and I love it and it is super important to the game (-:

It isn’t just me that reads it, in fact a lot of the team are reading this one (-:

Chris

Indeed. I had some back-to-back busy days and only time to read, but not respond, so I am mostly caught up.

Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Evening All,

Relics of Orr podcast about the CDI below:

http://www.relicsoforr.com/?p=3403

‘In this special episode we chat with guest host Soren of Gaiscíoch about the Raiding CDI and how Guild Wars 2 could create unique raids.’

Chris

P.S: Thanks Relics of Orr and Soren for your feedback.

Nice. Thanks for the link.

It is an excellent discussion with some really insightful brainstorming and design concepts.

Chris

Evening All,

Relics of Orr podcast about the CDI below:

http://www.relicsoforr.com/?p=3403

‘In this special episode we chat with guest host Soren of Gaiscíoch about the Raiding CDI and how Guild Wars 2 could create unique raids.’

Chris

P.S: Thanks Relics of Orr and Soren for your feedback.

No.

Hey Guys,

Just a quick update on some changes I shared with you in a previous post. With the build on Tuesday build site interacts will have text better describing them, the arrow cart and ballista build sites will now have a smaller footprint and the siege disabler has a more visible projectile giving you a better chance to block it. We look forward to seeing how these changes improve the WvW experience.

Happy Halloween!

John

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Hi Gaile While I’m sure we all appreciate your response, I believe the reason that the thread has gone from suggestions to merely complaints is that probably every possible suggestion has already been made, yet players still want to voice their concerns and opinions on these still-bad April changes. We also don’t want the thread to fall to the wayside or be forgotten.

Understood. Suggestions that have been made are good; they don’t need to be repeated. It’s a huge thread, but it’s extra meaty and it’s been and will be read.

And the devs have made it clear that there’s no chance that these concerns will be forgotten. Absolutely no chance of that at all.

This would be a big undertaking. I’ve seen people get bogged down in events of this type that involve only a few dozen people. Imagining one person managing potentially 2,000 players (at 1 gold each) is mind-boggling. Looking at technical limitations like the 10 mail limit makes it even more challenging.

Our current position on this is that we will not take an official position on this. We cannot sanction, vet, approve, recommend, or support it in any way. I’ve already provided some information about potential issues, and while we don’t want to suggest that any of these would be the case with this event, a short list includes:

• Not enough interest, event cancelled, no refunds given
• Typo’d list, can’t send refunds even if intended
• Asking for player’s information (even for prize distribution) that exposes credentials through using an account name instead of a display name or character name
• CS is asked to intervene (to force prize distribution, to settle disputes). We can’t and we won’t get involved. This is a player-to-player arrangement for which we do not offer support
• A host does not take enough care to ensure legitimacy and transparency, and is subject to complaints and appeals, which again CS would not be responsible for resolving
• Host requests CS help in distribution
• Host is harassed and insists that CS mediate disputes
• Item is never distributed

Each player needs to decide if this is something that s/he wants to get involved with, and needs to do so with the caveats and cautions in mind. We’re all for fun, and this could be great fun. But there are risks, too, and those should be viewed with care.

Lastly, it would not be appropriate to use the Guild Wars 2 Discussion Sub-forum for this event. The player event sub-forum would be the place, if it’s promoted on our forums at all. If this does appear on our forums, please add the following message:

This event is not offered or supported by ArenaNet. This event is offered by [name, an individual player, and any disputes or issues that might arise in connection with this event should be addressed to the sponsoring player.

Having answered the questions, it’s appropriate for us to close this thread at this time.

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

Arewn.2368:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very aware, which is why I advocate the two raid sizes of 8 and 12 as a viable model. As long as you have eight people, you would only ever need to find, at most, 3 people to make multiple raid groups possible during a raiding session.

There is big difference between having to find 3 additional people and having to find 14 additional people (even without the trinity) to make raiding viable during a session.

And we really shouldnt care what the pinnacle of normalcy is in raiding. The point is to get away from those preconceptions and look at what GW2 offers. Traditionally, in large groups, GW2 uses scaling. Im past advocating for scaling, but I still think the issue deserves a solution. That is why I want to have the discussion.

My point about normalcy is that people are both accustomed to and fully capable of dealing with it.
5 friends, only 4 can play L4D. 11 friends, only 10 can play League of Legends. 3 friends, only 2 can play Portal2.
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill on something we can discuss LATER, and it’s derailing the thread.

Again, it doesnt matter what people are used to from those games.

By the same logic, We’ve been doing guild missions and living story for close to two years in GW2 without any restrictions on who gets to participate in guild events.

And, I would have no problem tabling the discussion if I thought it would actually be part of the conversation at a later phase – and not dismissed with single set raid sizes established as given from the beginning. Again, all Im asking is it eventually be part of the planned conversation. Unfortunately, that isnt the case. I dont want raiding to end up making into the game and me raising my voice then just to be told “you should have said something during the CDI.”

Again, asking for raid size and flexibility/accessibility to be part of the planned conversation – that is all. Without it, it doesnt really matter to some us what the actual content of the raids looks like.

Hi Blaeys,

I really appreciate and respect you collaboration and discussion and for that reason I am going to make this statement as I think it is the fairest thing to do.

For the purposes of this discussion we will only be talking about fixed Raid sizes or less than the set number with no scaling.

I hope you understand the reason for me making this statement as I don’t want to waste your time.

Chris

Are you planning to address the issue at a later time – hopefully in this thread?

Again, I dont even care about scaling – I just dont want to be put in the position of having to find 14 additional raiders to ensure no one is left out.

That could just as easily be done by balancing around 2 raid sizes (such as the 8 and 12 person models I postulated earlier). The point is, there are ways to address the issue without harming the difficulty of the raid. Its possible someone out there has an idea that is better than the ones I propose. Its worth the discussion at least (even if it is at a later point in the thread)

I apologize if my posts have harmed the flow of the discussion in any way. I just feel this is important enough to warrant some discussion – whether it is now or later in the process.

It’s ok Blaeys, you haven’t been disruptive and I understand your points. The answer is yes. Let’s allow for more foundational discussion and then we can discuss two raid group sizes in terms of pros and cons.

Does that sound ok?

Chris

That is all I needed to hear.

As long as the topic is intended to be part of the discussion and we arent simply assuming a single raid of 15 people (without the discourse), Im happy to participate in the foundational conversation (probably not tonight though – getting close to orange beer time).

Of course, know that I will be holding you to it before this CDI is complete ( ).

And Happy Halloween. As always, we respect the efforts you put into these CDIs – and in putting up with blowhards like me.

Thanks Blaeys I appreciate it. We will discuss it but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will go into the proposal though.

Chris

Boottspurr.9184:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hehe you are definitely not late. I can tell you from experience this CDI is going to last a long time which I am more than happy about.

The CDI group or only just starting to settle down into our first topics which is fine but you can gauge CDI time from that.

Chris

17 pages of Settling Down… WOW I can’t. how do you. reeaadd it all? New-found respect, Chris. New-found respect.

Because it is awesome and I love it and it is super important to the game (-:

It isn’t just me that reads it, in fact a lot of the team are reading this one (-:

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Blaeys.3102:

Its not an optimal solution, but the only way I could see 15 or fewer player raids working is if the difficulty was designed around having 10 players.

Groups wanting the challenge could limit their size to 10 or fewer players and guilds like mine would still have some flexibility in the size of the teams they could field. Win-win.

Im not going to let this topic drop. If this is going to be a collaborative development initiative, then we need to collaborate and not ignore significant concerns from anyone.

You don’t really seem to understand what Chris has been trying to say.
They want to create a raid in which knowledge and mechanics are more important than number of players. He has stated this multiple times now.
To reiterate again, difficulty is designed based on knowledge of the fight and the skill of the players rather than the amount of people participating.

This is why he suggested 15 size limits, since the size isn’t as important. They want us to move on to how we would like the raids to be specifically (what kind of encounters, mechanics, how to employ the mechanics in fun ways etc.) The limit can be be subject to change based on how the raid is designed.
In other words the raid influences the size of player. The size of players don’t influence the mechanics of the raid. Much less constraints this way and we don’t have to be stuck on a single point to the detriment of all other points.

Correct. Thanks Gilgamesh.

Chris

So if I have a raid night where i have two groups – one of 15 and the other with the remaining 8 (as an example), they are going to have the same chances to beat the encounters if the players involved are at roughly the same skill level?

If that is true, then I’m happy. That would be putting skill at a more important level than numbers.

So this is a very clever question which does need to be answered regardless of raid number sets. If it’s ok though let’s discuss it when we get to raid number set discussions.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

Arewn.2368:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very aware, which is why I advocate the two raid sizes of 8 and 12 as a viable model. As long as you have eight people, you would only ever need to find, at most, 3 people to make multiple raid groups possible during a raiding session.

There is big difference between having to find 3 additional people and having to find 14 additional people (even without the trinity) to make raiding viable during a session.

And we really shouldnt care what the pinnacle of normalcy is in raiding. The point is to get away from those preconceptions and look at what GW2 offers. Traditionally, in large groups, GW2 uses scaling. Im past advocating for scaling, but I still think the issue deserves a solution. That is why I want to have the discussion.

My point about normalcy is that people are both accustomed to and fully capable of dealing with it.
5 friends, only 4 can play L4D. 11 friends, only 10 can play League of Legends. 3 friends, only 2 can play Portal2.
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill on something we can discuss LATER, and it’s derailing the thread.

Again, it doesnt matter what people are used to from those games.

By the same logic, We’ve been doing guild missions and living story for close to two years in GW2 without any restrictions on who gets to participate in guild events.

And, I would have no problem tabling the discussion if I thought it would actually be part of the conversation at a later phase – and not dismissed with single set raid sizes established as given from the beginning. Again, all Im asking is it eventually be part of the planned conversation. Unfortunately, that isnt the case. I dont want raiding to end up making into the game and me raising my voice then just to be told “you should have said something during the CDI.”

Again, asking for raid size and flexibility/accessibility to be part of the planned conversation – that is all. Without it, it doesnt really matter to some us what the actual content of the raids looks like.

Hi Blaeys,

I really appreciate and respect you collaboration and discussion and for that reason I am going to make this statement as I think it is the fairest thing to do.

For the purposes of this discussion we will only be talking about fixed Raid sizes or less than the set number with no scaling.

I hope you understand the reason for me making this statement as I don’t want to waste your time.

Chris

Are you planning to address the issue at a later time – hopefully in this thread?

Again, I dont even care about scaling – I just dont want to be put in the position of having to find 14 additional raiders to ensure no one is left out.

That could just as easily be done by balancing around 2 raid sizes (such as the 8 and 12 person models I postulated earlier). The point is, there are ways to address the issue without harming the difficulty of the raid. Its possible someone out there has an idea that is better than the ones I propose. Its worth the discussion at least (even if it is at a later point in the thread)

I apologize if my posts have harmed the flow of the discussion in any way. I just feel this is important enough to warrant some discussion – whether it is now or later in the process.

It’s ok Blaeys, you haven’t been disruptive and I understand your points. The answer is yes. Let’s allow for more foundational discussion and then we can discuss two raid group sizes in terms of pros and cons.

Does that sound ok?

Chris

I promise that you’re not being snubbed (Tachenon, you made me both smile and wince there, with your definition of the term). Please know this thread is serving a good purpose and that is is offering the dev team valuable information. The fact is, though, there’s simply nothing new to say on the subject right now.

We know that you’d like to have some info on this subject. But until there’s something of substance to say, devs wouldn’t post in the thread due both to their generally busy schedules and to our practice of talking about matters of this sort only when we’re able to provide something of substance, within a meaningful timeframe.

Having said all that, your input is extremely valuable, and that’s why it was requested back in April. We reached out to you, and you provided a good deal of insight, and of good value, too! With subsequent changes to the game, your input shifted to address current concerns. That’s very meaningful to those team members following this thread and we thank you.

We’ve said it before, but giving details about for a suggested change is better than saying “I don’t like it.” If you can say why, and give a proposed fix, that’s very useful to the team. You are not in any way obliged to do this, you know that and I’m agreeing. I’m just making the suggestion to put the most value on your time in posting and the devs in reading.

Thanks.

Boottspurr.9184:

I’m getting to this CDI a little late, I’ve been crazy busy this week… I must have missed a ton of info already and I’m not sure where we are in the conversation, but I still wanted to put forwards some ideas I had:

-In my mind, raids would be implemented as guild content as an upgrade the guild would unlock (similar to bounties, etc.) at a higher tier.

-The upgrade would allow the purchase of semi-timegated raid event consumables, purchased through influence, again similar to the activities guilds have now.

-The use of one of these consumables would allow an officer, as well as up to 25 other people (difficulty is balanced for 25, or perhaps there are two difficulty modes: 10 and 25), access to a raid instance for a certain amount of time (TIME LIMIT). I chose 25 because it might be smart to use the Commander Squad functionality with this somehow.

-Members of the guild officer’s party of 25 (or 10) do not necessarily have to be part of the guild, but rewards specifically for the guild would be determined based on how many guild member participated.

-The instance unlocked for the raid would make most sense if it took place in the Mists, but locked off areas in the real world with real world consequences/story would also be very cool.

-I do not think the instance should scale based on party size, it should have one or two difficulties set (possibly for 10 and 25) with different rewards/amounts of rewards.

-The easiest form of rewards would be various Raid Tokens (received from beating each boss, or even event if the difficulty is many many little baddies), to be traded for unique looking rewards of no higher power than ascended. Also, guild commendations as well as guild influence (from each boss) :P
More Tokens, influence, commendations for 25 than for 10…

-Obviously the MOST IMPORTANT THING about these raids are not that they are necessarily your standard raid structure of kill trash, go kill boss, repeat (similar to dungeons), but THAT THEY ARE DIFFICULT CONTENT. VERY difficult content.

I’m not sure how you guys are going to work that out, but hopefully Dave the AI genius is coming up with some awesome ideas of how to prevent mass rezzing from downed, overcome stacking, etc.

ALSO IMPORTANT is what to do about CONDITION STACKING… With this many people, 25 stack limits will make party comps very strict against condition builds… not great.

I forget the other stuff I wanted to say, but there ya go…

Hehe you are definitely not late. I can tell you from experience this CDI is going to last a long time which I am more than happy about.

The CDI group or only just starting to settle down into our first topics which is fine but you can gauge CDI time from that.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Arewn.2368:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very aware, which is why I advocate the two raid sizes of 8 and 12 as a viable model. As long as you have eight people, you would only ever need to find, at most, 3 people to make multiple raid groups possible during a raiding session.

There is big difference between having to find 3 additional people and having to find 14 additional people (even without the trinity) to make raiding viable during a session.

And we really shouldnt care what the pinnacle of normalcy is in raiding. The point is to get away from those preconceptions and look at what GW2 offers. Traditionally, in large groups, GW2 uses scaling. Im past advocating for scaling, but I still think the issue deserves a solution. That is why I want to have the discussion.

My point about normalcy is that people are both accustomed to and fully capable of dealing with it.
5 friends, only 4 can play L4D. 11 friends, only 10 can play League of Legends. 3 friends, only 2 can play Portal2.
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill on something we can discuss LATER, and it’s derailing the thread.

Again, it doesnt matter what people are used to from those games.

By the same logic, We’ve been doing guild missions and living story for close to two years in GW2 without any restrictions on who gets to participate in guild events.

And, I would have no problem tabling the discussion if I thought it would actually be part of the conversation at a later phase – and not dismissed with single set raid sizes established as given from the beginning. Again, all Im asking is it eventually be part of the planned conversation. Unfortunately, that isnt the case. I dont want raiding to end up making into the game and me raising my voice then just to be told “you should have said something during the CDI.”

Again, asking for raid size and flexibility/accessibility to be part of the planned conversation – that is all. Without it, it doesnt really matter to some us what the actual content of the raids looks like.

Hi Blaeys,

I really appreciate and respect you collaboration and discussion and for that reason I am going to make this statement as I think it is the fairest thing to do.

For the purposes of this discussion we will only be talking about fixed Raid sizes or less than the set number with no scaling.

I hope you understand the reason for me making this statement as I don’t want to waste your time.

Chris

guardian.6489:

I got an idea to focus our mechanics discussion. Why don’t we take a previous living world event that could be transformed into a full Raid, create a blank slate for the Raid, then debate what mechanics we could add to it and what purpose they would serve. The reason for using an old event is because most of us have done it and it’s likely they’ll try recycling living story 1 content anyways.

I’ll use the wiki’s Dynamic event info as a template for each phase of the Raid: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberate_Lion%27s_Arch_from_Scarlet%27s_Forces
I also recommend finding some YouTube videos of the event so you know what I’m talking about.

For those who missed the Season 1 finale, this is modelled on the Dynamic Events and Boss fights around the battle of the breachmaker which is part of the Battle of LA. We’ll use the example Raid size of 15 for now.

Phase one: Neutralize Scarlet’s armies in key areas!
The fight begins with all 3 Parties starting off from the North entry location. They need to work together to take Fort Marriner, Trader’s Forum and Postern Ward. Once a location is taken after an X amount of time the Molten/Aetherblades/Molton Alliance attacks it forcing the group to split up to all 3 locations. There is trash throughout the city but they can be avoided. Once all 3 locations are captured phase 2 begins.
Recycled mechanics: Scarlet’s Alliances attacking each of the locations.
New Mechanics: (i.e. Toxic alliance husks spawn at Post Warden rally point and only take substantial damage from conditions)

Phase two: Stop the miasma deployment!

Three Miasma events spawn and the Raid party must deal with all 3 at the same time in a set time limit! If they fail one of the events they Miasma event the Raid will Fail/restart the event/lose out on bonus loot (pick one or add your own).

Recycled mechanics: The same Scarlet Alliance minions attack the Miasma locations

New Mechanics:

Phase three: Scarlet’s generals are out in the open. Kill them.

The 6 Generals of Scarlet Spawn in locations around the map (see that wiki page I posted for what they are) and the Raid must decide the Optimal way to kill all 6. They need to decide the fastest method to kill all 6 because ____
Recycled Mechanics: The Raid version of the 6 bosses use the same model and some of the same mechanics of the old open world fight
New Mechanics: (Think of new boss mechanics for all 6 of them)

Phase Four: Scarlet has unleashed her assault knights to stop the Lionguard.
The 3 Assault Knights spawn, and the Raid must defeat all 3 to the final battle with Scarlet.
Recycled Mechanics: The Three Assault Knights model and some of their attacks
New Mechanics: (Do we make the 3 Knights different this time?)

Phase Five: Defeat Scarlet’s Prime Hologram
All 15 members of the Raid come together for the final fight with Scarlet’s Prime Hologram. The first phase of the fight, the Raid must collect Primary Light Attunements to damage the Prime Hologram while avoid the Hologram’s laser attack which leaves a DoT effect on the ground in a strip where the Hologram fired. Second Phase the Hologram splits into 3 Holograms, and they must be killed at the same time or they will split further into mirco-X holograms and waste time further. Phase three you must kill Mircoprime Holograms to finish off the Ultra-violet Hologram, the fight goes back and forth between the Ultra-Violet Hologram firing it’s laser attack to leave a DoT attack (same as phase 1). There is a time limit to the fight.

Recycled mechanics: The fight still uses the same primary pattern and mechanics
New Mechanics: (What awesome new raid mechanics could we add?)

Rewards:
Death Consequences:

If you want to contribute to my thought experiment just quote my post edit what you want added, bold whatever is new and explain your decisions afterwords.

Very good idea.

Chris

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Blaeys.3102:

Its not an optimal solution, but the only way I could see 15 or fewer player raids working is if the difficulty was designed around having 10 players.

Groups wanting the challenge could limit their size to 10 or fewer players and guilds like mine would still have some flexibility in the size of the teams they could field. Win-win.

Im not going to let this topic drop. If this is going to be a collaborative development initiative, then we need to collaborate and not ignore significant concerns from anyone.

You don’t really seem to understand what Chris has been trying to say.
They want to create a raid in which knowledge and mechanics are more important than number of players. He has stated this multiple times now.
To reiterate again, difficulty is designed based on knowledge of the fight and the skill of the players rather than the amount of people participating.

This is why he suggested 15 size limits, since the size isn’t as important. They want us to move on to how we would like the raids to be specifically (what kind of encounters, mechanics, how to employ the mechanics in fun ways etc.) The limit can be be subject to change based on how the raid is designed.
In other words the raid influences the size of player. The size of players don’t influence the mechanics of the raid. Much less constraints this way and we don’t have to be stuck on a single point to the detriment of all other points.

Correct. Thanks Gilgamesh.

Chris

My personal first order of business would be to rally the troops (boy those workers are slow!) to repair this icon. It just makes me so sad.

That’s not how it is currently implemented, and changing core tenants of the commerce systems solely to tweak API behavior is incredibly unlikely to happen.

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Yes can we please move away from the traditional tropes of raiding and discuss how to utilize the core mechanics of GW2 to create a new type of challenging co-operative instanced content.

We also don’t need to talk about levels or scaling for the time being.

And those that want to continue to chat with Crystal about progression then please do so.

Chris

In fairness, you brought the scaling issue to the forefront when you told us to assume a set raid size as part of our feedback. If we can abandon that assumption (with the understanding that the topic will be part of a later discussion), then it would open the conversation to other topics.

The logistics of how raids are formed – especially among guilds of diverse numbers – is a very important topic that will affect how players – and definitely guilds – experience raiding should it ever become a thing. That topic cannot be pushed aside. It goes to the heart of how we play the game.

I put forward set raid size to try to steer discussion away from scaling.

And just to note I also said ‘Set raid size with the ability for a smaller number than the set to enter in and try the encounter’

Knowledge>skill>numbers.

Chris

If an item doesn’t exist in the commerce systems, then it has never had a sell order placed for it.

This is to prevent people from placing buy orders for items before there are any being sold and thus influencing markets that don’t exist yet.

Iason Evan.3806:

I think a lot of the discussions so far have been really cookie cutter and not outside the box. I understand wanting to take raiding that you love and just plop it wholesale into GW2. Let’s brainstorm though.

• Make raiding gear uniform—when you start the raid you get to pick gear at a vendor from various stat selections—

• Players can side kick up to 80 in Raids so that anyone can do them at whatever level. The level cap in this game isn’t going anywhere so why do Raids need to be considered only playable by level 80 characters?

• Have Raids where groups of players fight each other at the end. If only one group is playing it defaults to NPCs.

• I’d like to see a Raid where players get to be the boss. If no player is available then it’s an NPC. You could have a gauntlet-style-defense-point-raid where a group of players are 5 different bosses sequentially fighting against another group of players trying to complete the Raid.

• Can we make Control classes mean something more in Raids? Support? Maybe doing DPS to a Raid Boss in a certain situation isn’t even possible. You have to do other things in order to bring the boss down.

Let’s spend a few pages of this CDI getting away from traditional notions of what Raids are and spend some time coming up with things that have never been done.

Yes can we please move away from the traditional tropes of raiding and discuss how to utilize the core mechanics of GW2 to create a new type of challenging co-operative instanced content.

We also don’t need to talk about levels or scaling for the time being.

And those that want to continue to chat with Crystal about progression then please do so.

Chris

983993 Solved
975957 Hacked Resto tickets take time. A lot of time. Your friend is not forgotten.
971809 GW1 Account, Ticket needs to be submitted at
988815 Agent made an error and sent you to GW1. I’ve bumped this, you should hear back within the hour.
985783 In Queue
981982 Solved (twice!) in previous tickets, no further review will be taken.

If anyone is still experiencing this issue – could you please post your full system specs so we can look into this issue further?

Specifically:

- CPU/Processor
- GPU/Video card
- OS
- RAM

Thanks everyone!

Hey everyone,

We’re currently looking into this issue but we’ve not yet been able to narrow down the cause. If everyone could provide the following information this would be most helpful:

- Do you use DSL, cable, dial-up, satellite, or another connection method?

- Do you use any routers, hubs, or switches? If so, could you tell us the make and model of that equipment?

- Does your computer connect wirelessly, or does it use an Ethernet cable for connectivity (quick tip: If you’re connecting wirelessly, please try a wired connection)?

- Who is your Internet service provider?

- Where are you located? Your city and state/province would be helpful.

- Are you on a home, campus, business, or military network?

- Do you use any Internet Security Applications (ISA) or firewalls such as CYBERsitter, “Net-Nanny,” ZoneAlarmr, McAfeer or NortonT?

- What troubleshooting steps have you already tried?

Thanks very much for your patience everyone!

Dead Muppet.9718:

I call shenanigans, this is setup for a 50/50 win loss ratio. Meaning some games the odds will be stacked against you mmr rating wise, and other games they will be stacked in your favor.

I’m not sure what you mean, but yes… the algorithm is not perfect and even in the best-cast scenario there is almost always a slight advantage on one side. Glicko2 factors in the enemy rating though when making adjustments though.

Echiel.8196:

Would it be possible for for example for ranks 96%-0% to implement another rule to count a team lvl.

I’d like to see something added that, at the very least, increased the odds new players are grouped together. People have suggested a number of ways this could be done. Does anyone remember the big thread for that?

SYPHA.9283:

Anytime a comment was made or evidence was shown of the opposite the Dev stated, he had a generic recant ready.

I disagree with this. We’re dealing with anecdotal and disjointed evidence here, so I tried to explain what could be going on but it involves a bit of guesswork. As a general rule, we should take any comparisons involving screenshots and leaderboard data with a grain of salt because they simply don’t tell the whole story.

SYPHA.9283:

By what the Dev said of the MMr and the same ppl of the same skill level are matched up….do u mean i will only ever play the same people over and over and over, because god knows the randomness of pvp, W and L, and Anet only seems to ALLOW a select few to be in top 25 consistently. Or make it above 50% ish.

I’m confused, you seem to be contradicting yourself… are you experiencing random matches, or do you feel matchmaking is preventing you from playing with players outside your skill level? (Is this even something you’d want?)

You are more likely to play with people around your skill level, but it also depends on who is in the queue at the same time you are and how long you’ve been waiting.

SYPHA.9283:

MMR to be accurate needs to take into account the individuals contributions to the team as well. Not just as a whole of Win, Loss.

This would be awesome, but would be very hard to get right and would deserve a very large discussion of its own.

Zapion.2967:

As far as I can see your MMR can sink if ppl roflstomp you but if you have a 4on4 group fight your own actions have a weight of 25% of the result. And if your mate is a brainless daily farmer who gives a kitten about teamplay this should effect you? Are you serious?

I think this goes along with what SYPHA.9283 was saying. Does anyone see any low hanging fruit here? It would probably need to be something that would be generic enough to be true for any map and/or gamemode.

Edit: We should totally start a new thread for this.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Flitzie — I am not an economist. But I know our resident experts in this field have posted about this in the past.

I suggest you read this thread, it’s fascinating!

Or search for John Smith’s posts here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/John-Smith-4610

Both links point to John’s profile.

Gosh darn it! I’ll fix, and thanks for pointing that out!

Well you all ready have 1 fan : )

<————

Flitzie — I am not an economist. But I know our resident experts in this field have posted about this in the past.

I suggest you read this thread, it’s fascinating!

Or search for John Smith’s posts here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/John-Smith-4610

daimasei.4091:

What I’m supposed to do with 1 gem???

What do you do with 1 cent in change? Isn’t it the same thing?

daimasei.4091:

Wow, they “fixed” this and now everything is on sale? Clever strategy indeed!

No, the team rushed to update the exchange because they knew there was a sale coming and didn’t want to cause disappointment. No strategy involved, just addressing player feedback.

I was really pleased that it rolled out so quickly, because we have a sale going on and it’s always nice to take advantage of those!

Thanks for your patience and support, everyone!

As an fyi for teams signing up: ESL requires that your team owns a custom arena in order to participate. Make sure to read through all of the info over on ESL’s website (listed above).

Also, you can sign-up early.

Here’s the interface for exchanging gems for gold.

Hopefully someone can explain what they feel is wrong about this, because in both cases the amount is carefully parsed to the smallest denominator that I can see.

Are you concerned that you cannot buy 512 gold, 4 silver, and 93 copper? Well, that’s true, it’s not possible. But there’s no “cash grab” that I can see, and I’m trying to understand what your concerns are.

I confess: I’m confused. I just went and talked to our UI developer/programmer type people, and they opened up the UI and showed me an incremental purchase rate. As they put in a figure, say, 512 gems, they got a price in gold, silver, and copper, nothing rounded up to the next gold. And when they completed the transaction that amount — and only that amount — was what was deducted from their total currency.

Can you show me what you’re seeing that doesn’t present an exact amount?

Thanks.

Huh that doesn’t sound consistent at all…. I would think it would be ideal to have the character’s head in relatively the same position for all races.

Narkodx.1472:

The question is why do you think this somehow stops them from doing other things?

Pretty much this. I can assure you that running events for our competitive players is not detracting from other areas of the game.

Thank you for expressing your concerns, OP!