Guild Wars 2

Subdue.5479:

The problem is that there exists this middle group that wants to feel hardcore, sitting around in BiS gear, but doesn’t actually want to be hardcore. These players play like casuals, a dungeon here, a dungeon there, some mapping, not really doing anything focused or hardcore with their time, but they want to be dressed in the best gear. Mind you, the gear they’re currently in most likely far more than enough for any content they’ve done or ever think of doing. That’s not the point for them though. The point for them is that they no longer feel hardcore, even though they never really were hardcore.

100% this. It’s like you took the words out of my brain.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Evelynddra.9265:

Think clearing the same mobs for hours, upon hours, sometimes weeks in order to get one level.

EverQuest, South Karana, the Aviak village farm. That’s what comes to mind. Or even “better”, how about faction work in Highhold Keep . . .

See also “Legendary Defender of Ascalon” in GW1.

When people talk about Korean gridners THAT’S what they mean. So when people say GW2 is grindy, I laugh.

Not a lot of people have played those games (or have much interest in them because of that fact) so those who didn’t don’t really understand the scope of what you’re talking about with this.

I kind of do, mostly this starts to become more evident on mobile platforms like iOS and Android. And a flash/Facebook game or two which get advertised on sidebars now and then and are really uncomfortably grind-oriented even if you’re “VIP/Premium Member”.

Which I get. I actually more or less enjoyed those games. I had lots of fun just killing things in Shaiya with a party. I’m actually a HUGE dungeon crawler fan, having played Baldurs Gate, the Champions games, and Titan Quest before I got into MMORPGs. It’s totally not for everyone which I get. It’s just people come screaming grind, but have no idea what it is. It’s now some watered-down version basically used to say “I don’t like doing this”. Not liking something is perfectly valid, but call it what it is.

Mungrul.9358:

Raine.1394:

All games have grinds.

Sorry, going to be a pedant here, but it’s only because I see a lot off MMO gamers using the same quote.

MMOs are NOT “all games”.

Quake doesn’t have grind.
Doom doesn’t have grind.
Mario Galaxy doesn’t have grind.
Tetris doesn’t have grind.
Hell, there’s a lot of single-player RPGs out there that don’t even have grind.

Grind is a disease that’s particularly virulent in the MMO genre.
It really isn’t needed, but it’s one of the most basic tools in an MMO developer’s toolbox to ensure player retention. You know that eventually, players will exhaust all of your meaningful content, stop playing and therefore stop paying.

So you find artificial ways of extending the amount of time players are playing your game and therefore being exposed to your monetisation systems. Things like time-gated materials, equipment damage, achievement points, etc. All of these epitomise the idea of “grind”. Increasing a progress bar by repeating the same content continuously for a lengthy period of time. Thus ensuring that the developers have more time to sell you more crap.

I’m going to touch on this. I do agree that not ALL games have grinds. Not even all MMOs. I see a lot of people just short terming MMORPG into MMO. This bothers me. While a lot of MMOs are RPGS, not all of them are. It’s not MMOs that have grind, but RPGs. So that being said, you are right. None of the games you listed here have grinds. None of those were RPGs.

As for RPGs and grind, many, if not all RPGs have “grind”. Or what these forums seem to call it. When I first came into the term grind, it was literally being required to do the same thing hundreds of times to play content. Think clearing the same mobs for hours, upon hours, sometimes weeks in order to get one level. When people talk about Korean gridners THAT’S what they mean. So when people say GW2 is grindy, I laugh. So if we use this idea that grind is simply “repeating the same thing” then really basically every RPG is grindy.

BeoErgon.9107:

During the CDI for vertical progression I asked many and many times for that question: will level cap increase?

Never got an answer.

I said each time that without that information, all the CDI on vertical progression was void and null. It’s an essential information to talk about progression and they never ever dared to answer.

Real great ideas in the vertical progression thread… but they are all void if they increase the level cap (which has been said elsewhere that they will do).

It is what baffles me about the CDI. It is supposed to be a conversation but they answered none of the questions players made. A conversation is supposed to be both ways.

I suppose that they had strict instructions not to talk about was going to be done, but anyways. Talking about vertical progression without that key information is useless.

This thread, and others like it, are exactly why ArenaNet wouldn’t directly answer that. That’s why we always get vague answers of soon in regards to content. Because once someone says something, people uphold it as law. Just like the comment in the interview about getting best gear before hitting 80.

It’s incredibly unfortunate, and presents a sort of catch-22. The community berates ArenaNet for not communicating, but then it tears them a new one when it doesn’t come excatly when and how it was said. Change is a part of MMOs. They’re not like console games. They don’t remain static. So you should always understand that whatever they say is subject to changes (pretty sure that’s in the terms and conditions too). Whenever and why ever.

Bagel.4598:

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaing about FoTM being grindy…when they were introuduced to be excatly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinion are those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Implementing a separate area for people who just want to grind, where those who do not want to grind cannot acquire is opposite to what they claimed their vision was.

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

They never said there would be no grind whatsoever. If they did, I would greatly love to see that line. Hell, GW2 had grind even before FoTM and ascended. What these forums seem to call “grind” is present in a lot of RPGs. To the extent where I’d say it’s a part of the genre.

They have said there would be no grinding treadmill, which there isn’t. One new tier in the games lifetime thus far isn’t a very good treadmill. You aren’t forced to grind to experience content. Level 1 fractals are the same content as level 50.

As for the actual topic, increased rewards will always be seen as good thing. I personally do not have enough data to make a correct judgment on whether you’re lack of rewards are a bad RNG streak, or simply bad rewards as a whole. What I do know though, is I do often get bad RNG streaks…then chests with multiple good rewards.

On the basis that pre patch it was impossible to receive a Non-infused ring at level 40+ Fractals and post patch they are common in the same tier, I can confidently say the rewards are poorer.
I ignore gold as a reward because
A) They do not reflect time input in comparison with other dungeons
B) Gold is not an exclusive reward to Fractals.

I would take up Tobias’ suggestion then. Unrecorded data from a single player isn’t going to change anything. For the loot bug previously it was data from many, many players that brought the bug to light.

Bagel.4598:

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaing about FoTM being grindy…when they were introuduced to be excatly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinion are those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Implementing a separate area for people who just want to grind, where those who do not want to grind cannot acquire is opposite to what they claimed their vision was.

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

They never said there would be no grind whatsoever. If they did, I would greatly love to see that line. Hell, GW2 had grind even before FoTM and ascended. What these forums seem to call “grind” is present in a lot of RPGs. To the extent where I’d say it’s a part of the genre.

They have said there would be no grinding treadmill, which there isn’t. One new tier in the games lifetime thus far isn’t a very good treadmill. You aren’t forced to grind to experience content. Level 1 fractals are the same content as level 50.

As for the actual topic, increased rewards will always be seen as good thing. I personally do not have enough data to make a correct judgment on whether you’re lack of rewards are a bad RNG streak, or simply bad rewards as a whole. What I do know though, is I do often get bad RNG streaks…then chests with multiple good rewards.

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaining about FoTM being grindy…when they were introduced to be exactly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinions are of those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Playing devil’s advocate again.

It’s not about doing them, it’s about the amount of doing them. It’s doing them past the point where it’s fun for them and more “gotta do it again or else…”

And it’s a case of a lot of people having different thresholds for how they feel about repeating things. For instance, I enjoy repeating certain events over again because they’re fun for me to do. And some other events I simply DO NOT enjoy and feel more like chores.

(Solo doing the water pump event chain, because nobody else does, for instance. JUST to shut up the NPCs complaining about the water.)

Devil’s advocate? Oh no. My opinion is very firmly in the “Ascended is not only not required, but it’s not that hard to get”.

Regular mats can be obtained many ways. The first way being regular old mob killing. But you also can get them from exploring maps, laurel crafting bags, dungeons, WvW, gathering, or simply using gold. Heck, just being able to buy the regular mats opens more doors. Instead of aiming for getting the mats off mobs, you can focus on getting gold instead.

How about the ascended mats then? Dragonite ore. World bosses, Karka and the temples. You can also get them in WvW, though I understand not as easily. There’s also guild missions. And lastly scarlet minions, even if failed. Bloodstone dust. Champion loot bags. So world bosses, champ trains, dungeons. Empyreal fragments. Any open world chests, including JP and min-dungeons. guild missions, fractals, WvW, and exp dungeons.

So I’m confused as to how exactly they are a grind when there are so many ways to get them. Unless you hate exploring, dungeons, WvW, JPs, world events/bosses, champions.

Are you going to get everything you need in one day? No, and you’re not supposed to. Is a month a long time to finish a full set of BiS gear, while still being able to do all content (besides what, 50+ fractals?), a long time?

That being said, I don’t think implementing other methods of getting them is a bad idea. I just don’t think the current way is a long, arduous task. Ascended didn’t suddenly turn GW into a Korean, treadmill grinder. I have played those, and having only certain groups of mobs to kill in order to level is a grind. Having multiple ways to get various mats isn’t.

Also, sorry. I type a lot sometimes.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Leo Paul.1659:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Reverence.6915:

Azure Prower.8701:

Reverence.6915:

Kevan.8912:

Kevan.8912:

and someone will say that they can gain ascended playing 1h a week without even looking at the screen while cooking,

here he comes xD

i have no mats, no gold, and no tolerance for any kind of crafting….
it’s my fault? i think it is.
in fact i accept my responsibility for not having had any legendary or rare dye or title.
i never argued about “voluntary” grinding.
i’m just a mediocre player, both in skills and in “aspect”.
if i can login only once in 2days for a pair of hours, i hoped i could play without any handicap (even that 12%) in any part of the game.
this is what i saw in the gw2, and what developers said about it.
simply now things are different. just admit it.

I see your point and I do agree that it’s a bit ridiculous to expect casuals (whom ArenaNet’s target audience is) to get ascended gear and stay competitive in the game. It’s a lot easier to get BiS in this game than in any other MMO though, given the number of paths available to get the mats required to craft them. In saying that however, it still doesn’t constitute a grind in my opinion, as there is little repetitive activity required in achieving said gear.

We all hope that there will be alternate methods to obtaining the gear soon though.

Little repetitive activity? Pray tell how do you obtain different tiers of cloth with out either:
A) Grinding the mobs at the correct levels.
B) Grinding gold so you can buy it off the TP.
C) Opening your wallet to skip the grinding for gold process.

D) Play an alt through those levels without doing champ trains. It nets you quite a lot of those mats and is very fun if you just relax and take it easy. I took my level 20 necro to WvW and got around 50 wool scraps in around 2 hours from salvaging the loot. Running through maps doing exploration also netted me a lot of mats. Think outside the box.

E) Event “farm” with some guildies, make a game of it
F) Help leveling guildies clear a map
G) Help a guildie through some dungeons

There are things we do, just simply to do them, that don’t necessarily constitute “farming” and still net you the mats or gold you so desire.

Your suggestions are nothing more than sugarcoated ways of saying the OP’s points A) and B )

Yes and no. Most people define grind as spending time doing something they don’t want to do and aren’t enjoying having to do it. If you’re out helping a friend or guildie by choice because you want to, it’s not the same thing because you should be enjoying yourself.

By your general thought line, simply leveling a character (your first or otherwise), enjoyable or otherwise, falls under points A and B. At which point you may as well not bother playing the game at all because absolutely everything you do is ‘grind’.

That’s what I’ve been thinking whenever people complain about a grind. Honestly, it just sounds like they don’t want to do anything. I LIKE doing world bosses, map exploration, and dungeons. I get plenty of mats/gold from doing them. Enough that I’ve made my two weapons, ankitten ow finishing leveling armorsmith while crafting ascended materials. I get enough gold/mats to finish the timegated ones everyday. Just by playing things I like.

So I do have to ask, those who seem to have trouble getting mats, or think everything is a grind. What do you even like to do then?

TooBz.3065:

Mireles Lore.5942:

The game needs some type of progression to be rewarded for playing or it wouldn’t even be a game. If not everyone would start at level 80 and have max gear. Sorry there needs to be some type of challenge and progression in a MMO, you cant always have everything here and now.

You don’t need progression, you need an objective. For example, chess, checkers, bridge, baseball, backgammon, Life, four square, volleyball, euchre, hearts, Settlers of Catan, Rook, Sorry, Boggle, Apples to Apples, Uno, Clue, Monopoly, Mousetrap,
Yahtzee, Bejeweled, Peggle …

I think you’re playing the wrong game genre if you don’t want progression. What you, and others, seem to misunderstand is that GW2 isn’t a sandbox game. It’s still an RPG. Progression of your character is a huge, I’d say defining, feature of RPG games. That’s why we level our characters. That’s why there are tiers of gear. There is a level of “grind” in EVERY RPG. That’s why so many MMORPGs fail at end game. Suddenly you stop progressing. That’s why gear treadmills exist, to keep your character you’ve built up progressing. Whether they are good or just lazy is another issue though.

Also one tier does not a treadmill make. I’m really having a hard time seeing any treadmill with one tier released, 3 months after launch, in one year. Sounds like a pretty boring treadmill to me. As for grind, it seems it’s much like P2W now, something people twist to have a defense on their not wanting to do something. I can say anything is a grind now. Dailies are a grind! Leveling is a grind! Walking places is a grind! Logging on is a grind! Breathing is a grind! There is no way to have a RPG without some sort of grind. What depends if the extent of it. A whole month (if you crafted, and didn’t buy any mats) to get a full set of BiS ascended armor isn’t a long grind. A long grind is killing a group of mobs for a week to hit level 26…out of 60 (I’m looking at you just launched Aion).

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Evelynddra.9265:

Also handy list of P2W games. Runes of Magic, LOTR, PWI, D3, Shayia, Aion (to an extent), I think Rift is not too, and basically any f2p Korean MMO.

I think you mean “any f2p Chinese MMO” because the most prominent of the games you just listed (Perfect World International) was actually designed and produced in China, not Korea.

That said, Aion and Guild Wars 2 are both owned by NC Soft, though Guild Wars 2 was developed by NC Soft’s division known as “Arena Net.” What this means is that Guild Wars 2 was developed by a company that is based in South Korea. That said, South Korea is a democratic state, just like the United States of America. Which means it is much more free than China or North Korea. So you really need to be careful when generalizing about games made in Korea, because you need to be specific about whether you are referring to games made in South Korea, or games made in North Korea. Because what is true of one, may not be true of the other.

No, I intentionally said “and any Korean” because the ones I listed before weren’t (except Aion). That’s why I said “and”. As I have played a few, and can’t remember the specific ones I just said any Korean F2P. As in my experience, they do tend to favor P2W cash shops.

I do know they are both owned by NCsoft. That said, ArenaNet are the ones who developed GW/2. They are a subsidiary of NCsoft. Located in the US. So no, it wasn’t actually developed by NCsoft. Whereas Aion is developed by NCSoft, and is indeed South Korean. That’s why new content for Aion has to be translated whereas new content for GW2 doesn’t.

I never really thought of specifying if it was made in South or North Korea, as I didn’t think it had any relevance. I’ll keep that in mind for the future then.

Becka Williams.4978:

If you can use real world money to get a competitive advantage (and yes, getting ascended gear is a competitive advantage, otherwise, why does it exist), then it’s pay to win. It’s not as bad as other pay to win games, but that doesn’t mean it’s not. It’s not a binary state, you can have super grindy pay to win games, and games like GW2, where you get a minor competitive advantage. When exotics were the best in class, this wasn’t a big deal, because exotics were cheap. But ascended gear is time-gated. But you can bypass the time gated part with gold. So, people who can afford to grind, or want to spend real world money to avoid grind can skip over the time gated part, and get a complete set of ascended gear on day one. And so, we ask: why is ascended gear time gated? The answer is: to drive people to buy gems to convert to gold so they can skip the time gated part. And thus, GW2 is pay to win. This is also why ascended gear is ugly as sin, so that people buy transmutation crystals.

I believe where I, and others, disagree with this is that you are not FORCED to buy gems to convert to gold. That’s a fundamental thing with P2W. Wherein you either spend the money, or not have the gear. That’s including even if it’s attainable in-game, but would take a significant amount of time. I’m talking more than the 9 days that weapons timegate you…if you’re crafting it. You can easily skip the timegate by getting gold to buy the mats. Since gold is not a hard thing to get*, it negates the timegating argument.

Also, I’d like to point out that people need to stop altering definitions to suit their arguments. When the term P2W came out it was because games would sell the best gear in their shop. Or limit upgrades unless you bought the upgrade item from the shop. Or limit content, and thus the gear, if you did not spend money. This is what people mean when they say P2W is being forced to spend money to be competitive. Not this whole “Oh this person can spend money and get it faster!” nonsense.

*I’m saying this as someone who does not play the TP, and gets most of my gold by doing things I enjoy. Like world bosses, or dungeons.

Has anyone claiming GW2 is P2W actually played a P2W game? And what’s with this “getting things faster is P2W”? Since when was that P2W? As I said in another thread, does me playing more thus getting things faster mean I’m “winning” over someone? What about people who level/grind/whatever faster, should we limit that because they’re doing it faster?

Let me make this really clear. Doing something faster IS NOT P2W. Now that we’ve, hopefully, cleared that up let us hit the other “points”.

Are you able to repair without the use of a canister? Yes? Not P2W.
Can you revive without the use of an orb? Yes? Not P2W.
Are you able to socket without the use of an enchantment/extractor? Yes? Still not P2W!
Can you get the best gear without spending a dime on the cash shop? Yes? Nope, still not P2W.
Can you play ALL of the content without spending a cent on the store? Yes? I’m really having trouble finding the P2W.

Also, sorry to say, skins are not P2W. I might marginally agree if they could not be bought any other way than spending money, but you can use in game gold for gems. I feel the same about boosters. Especially with the RNG to even get the ones that boost stats, and the minimal increase it gives. Plus the what, one hour it lasts?

Can we also point out that the same people saying “buying gems to sell for gold is P2W!” would be the first to shout if they couldn’t use gold to buy gems? Let’s also point out gold is not hard to make. I’ve made two ascended weapons in two weeks. I bought most of the mats. I literally only ran dungeons, and world bosses. I had no gold on hand when I started. Maybe if people stopped whining in the forums about how it’s P2W because someone has a shiny sword and you don’t, you could have one to!

Now I’m not saying buy gems and selling them wouldn’t make it easier/faster. But the fact remains it’s not REQUIRED, by any means. That’s fundamentally what separates P2W from not P2W. I do not need to spend any real life money to be on par with other players. I can achieve this goal in a relatively short period. I can achieve this goal by simply playing the game.

Also handy list of P2W games. Runes of Magic, LOTR, PWI, D3, Shayia, Aion (to an extent), I think Rift is not too, and basically any f2p Korean MMO.

Since when was “do something faster” part of P2W? People need to stop changing terms to suit their needs. If I am able to play more than someone, thus doing things faster am I winning over them? Should we stop letting other people play more because oh no, they’re going to gear/level/whatever faster? Unless the store starts selling things that give an actual advantage over someone, it’s not P2W. Especially since you can use gold to buy anything off the gem store.

Casual player here, as well as a crafting hater. I actually did level crafting to 500, as well as made my ascended weapon. I’m also working on a second one to use as a skin for my original one (the iridescent is way prettier than red). It did take some time, either to get gold or mats. But it is totally possible. I don’t play the TP or anything, so my gold all comes from just playing. Whether I do a couple dungeons, or some world bosses. Sometimes some map completion.

While I understand people’s dislike of ascended stuff, I actually really do like it. Not having it doesn’t stop me from playing the content. But it’s still something I can work towards.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Evelynddra.9265:

Two things.

1) 45% of people who play video games are women. That’s very nearly half. So this whole “men play ALL the games!” is total junk. Also

2) There was a study done that said if a group of people were 17% of women, men in the group think it’s 50-50. And if there’s 33% women, men think there are more women than men. Which seems fairly relevant since someone above mentioned there were 16 men in the living story to 11 women, yet here we are debating how it’s way more women in the living story.

Also, basing it on the living story and living story alone is stupid. You can’t pick such a small base and make asumtions on it. Even if the living story had more ladies, it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of other prominent NPCs are male.

As a side note, evo psych is just used by jerks to justify their wrong beliefs (like ‘women are just better at house stuff! It’s science!’ or ‘men are just better at everything! It’s science!’).

Your second point interests me. Can i have a source?

I would love to, but unfortunately I don’t have the exact study. I’ve been looking, but I don’t have access to any academic studies, beyond what I can Google. The source of the mention of the study was Genna Davis who heads a institute on gender in media.

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=197390707 – where info came from.
http://www.seejane.org/ – The institute I mentioned.

As for what someone else mentioned. That’s right. These are separate points though. The matter of why men think women don’t play games is different from how men view women in groups, particularly media. As Lorelei said, men don’t actually see women playing.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

eisberg.2379:

Evelynddra.9265:

People seem to think if they farm the mats they’re free. That’s not correct. Those mats still have a value, so I would keep that in mind when calculating costs to level it.

I disagree. If it cost me nothing to achieve, then I consider them as free. Doesn’t matter if they can be sold on the TP, if I didn’t spend any money on it, then it is free.

Almost true, because in technicalities you’re looking at an expended cost since everyone is trying to analyze this as an economist rather than a person.

If you have the materials on hand, then the only actual cost is time. If you intend to craft with the materials then they don’t have a value since if you sold them you’d have to buy them back in order to use them. Or I guess you could look at the value of raw Orichalcum Ore in the tooltip and the value of it off Black Lion and note the discrepancy. The value of ore you have in hand is irrelevant since it’s not costing you anything to obtain.

Yes, you could be selling it and earning money. But since we’re talking about crafting . . . that’s not at all important to the discussion. You need materials to craft, and you’re not buying the stuff you already have, therefore measuring it into the cost of making it seems . . . really silly.

The value of the materials are completely relevant. Especially in the case where the OP was asking how much it cost to level to 400. Someone may have only spent 2gold out of pocket, but they lost X amount of gold because they chose to use it instead of sell it. So it’s not correct to say it only cost you 2g to level to 400. It cost you 2g and the price of what you could have gotten from the materials you had.

Gathering. Isn’t. Free. It’s not even free money since you invested your time for the materials.

People seem to think if they farm the mats they’re free. That’s not correct. Those mats still have a value, so I would keep that in mind when calculating costs to level it.

Raine.1394:

I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Ahh, it would seem my memory of the quote was definitely incorrect. They stated there would be no new tiers at this time. This does changes things, slightly. Though I still feel we need more information before crying that the sky is falling. Is this a new tier every year? Every two?

Narkosys.5173:

Lol Hate to kill it but there will be many tiers after ascend. Chris W and Colin J both stated that into the future you can never tell. – I take that as many more tiers.
And yes I agree HP should have been the focus all the way.

And no it wasnt added late/start of game. Do you believe everything they tell you? It was a direct response to the crowd of we have nothing to do. That is why is slapped together so fast without thinking through the implications.

If that were true things would look a lot different not to mention all those fan sites would mention the possibility of ascend and infusion ect. It was a last min decision and a greedy money grab to keep people around and playing over those who wanted what they originally promised. It backfired anet lost those they tried to keep – lost those who originally purchased it under the promise and poisoned the well.

That’s fine if you take it that way, but that’s jumping the gun. Saying new tiers does not mean we’ll have a new tier every month.

Do I take the word of the devs more than the cries of an angsty forum group? Yes. I know people like to think game devs are big evil lying money grubbing monsters out to ruin your game (though arguably it’s theirs). Maybe, just maybe, they aren’t lying. I know…it’s a crazy thought. I’m not going to say they handled Ascended well because they truly didn’t. It should never have been released so incomplete. I am curious how they lied to those who bought the game? As it is, there is no gear treadmill. There is no grinding. Regardless of how much people like to think there is. I don’t know if this will change in the future (unfortunately I lack the ability to see into the future).

Raine.1394:

proxy.7963:

Raine.1394:

Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.

Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.

If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.

I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.

And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.

Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?

Except Anet stated this was the last tier. So there is no if. I will humor you though (even if the question was not directed at me), and say the point where it would be mandatory is when you can’t do content because of gear. Not having ascended does not impede your ability to do the content, so I have zero issue with it.

Raine.1394:

Yes, the game had vertical progression prior to 11/15 both in terms of leveling and tiers of gear. The distinction around 11/15 was the introduction of vertical progression post max level gear at max level. GW1 had vertical progression too but it stopped at max level. This is what we are talking about. In the AMA Anet confirmed that vertical progression would be in the game going forward.

You are correct that you can have elements of horizontal progression with vertical. The problem is that you can’t have no vertical with vertical. It’s a non-optional gear grind by definition. I’ll post the video link on the distinctions again in case you haven’t seen it.

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

I understand the distinction. That’s why I specifically stated that Anet said this was a tier they originally planned. It was added in late. If this tier was with the game originally there would be no discussion. So we’re basing this entire discussion Anets poor decision to not include the final tier (which they have also said it would be).

I understand people’s concerns about vertical progression, but unless we have more details on HOW they will implement vertical progression any speculation is just crying wolf. I’ll also repeat again, at this point in the game ascended gear is NOT A REQUIRMENT. You can complete all content with exotics (or even lower tiers). Ascended gear, at this point in time, is completely optional If that will change, and to what extent it will isn’t known yet.

I have seen that post, and while he brings up good points, I don’t think this applies to GW2 (and I have other issues with his points).
His first point is that it’s grindy (again, wrong usage of the word). If we look at legendaries in GW2. They are considered a grind. They are not better than the current exotics. Nor are they a requirement for anything (except the achievement). Yet we still consider them a grind. Grindy things exist in horizontal progression.

Next he talks about creating brackets (in his words, “You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close”). There will always be a difference between someone at level 1 and 80. Leveling is one the easiest way to show character development. There are other ways to do it, like say gaining stats through completing missions/events/etc., but that is a core element (character development) in many, if not all, RPGs. There will always be a power difference between a new player, and old player. If that is something people do not like, then I honestly don’t think RPGs are their thing. Now gear wise, I do think GW2 has a fairly decent system to address this. You can’t scale up (in world zones), but others can scale down.

Now he talks about power creep. I don’t feel power creep is entirely a bad thing. Again, a large part of RPGs (besides the role-playing lol) is getting stronger. I also think GW2 handled this well with scaling. While at level 80 with exotics you are stronger, you are not so strong that content is trivial. This is seen mainly with dungeons, but it also present in world zones.

Lastly he mentions dead zones. Again, level scaling is a good way to address this. Also the new dailies people seem to hate so much (you mean I have to go do things in the world?! – GW2 forums). For a system to give people a reason to visit world zones you’d think this would be more liked. Especially with the cries of vertical progression being evil.

INB4 calling me a “white knight/fanboy” If it seems like I’ve only talked about GW2 a lot, it’s because that is the game that is relevant to the discussion (see title).

Raine.1394:

Thanks for link. I have a very broad definition of ‘grinding’ born of years of gaming. To me it’s simply performing actions in game to move in the direction of a desired goal. Though the term has a generally negative connotation in terms of it’s etymology, I don’t attach a negative connotation to it.

What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.

GW2 already has vertical progression. Simply leveling is vertical progression. That’s a non-optional “grind”. There is content you can’t do unless you hit 80. I get that there is a difference between getting to level 80 and a gear treadmill, but it’s incorrect to say there is no vertical progression. What is important is to what degree vertical progression is present. So far in GW2 it has been minimal. While ascended gear is the top, you can still do the content without it. That gear isn’t actually required for anything.

We’re not on a treadmill currently. Anet released their last tier of gear late. We can’t assume that we’re on a treadmill just because of that. That’s pretty absurd. Granted they have said veritcal progression will still be in the game, but we don’t know to what extent. Vertical progression is a part of RPGs though. Whether they be online, console, or even table top. It’s not a bad thing, as long as it’s not what the whole game is about. I think GW2 is at a good middle ground. There are some vertical elements, but still some horizontal. Whether this will change or not in the future…I don’t know. But curretnly, the game as it is, it’s not on a treadmill.

Jesus. People on these forums really like to twist their definition of “grind” to suit their complaints. Contrary to belief grind does not mean solely a repetition of tasks (in regards to MMORPGS).

First of all Ascended gear. Something that Anet was planning from the start. This theory crafting on what WILL be rather than what IS is useless. We don’t know how big of an increase they’ll be. If there’ll be even more ways to get them when the other pieces are released. So CURRENTLY ascended gear is optional. Isn’t this game supposed to about skill? That’s what people kept saying. Now that there is gear that adds what…6 stat points (correct me if I’m wrong) we’ll lose all the time? If that 6 stat points are the defining factor to winning or losing…then maybe you should work on your skill a bit more. If fractals and dailies are too hard/too long/too whatever, how would you like to get them?

Now onto laurels. We have a way to get ascended with the absolute minimal amount of effort needed. Seriously. If you are so casual you can’t spend the 30 min (tops) needed for the dailies and a month isn’t long enough to do the monthly…then why do you even need ascended? If you play so little you can’t put in such a minimal amount of effort for the gear then what use would it even be for you? Unfortunately just wanting it isn’t a good enough reason. Now if the dailies are making you do something you don’t want to do, I have to ask…what do you want to do? So far the dailies I’ve seen are things that you’d complete just by playing (except maybe the crafting, but making 10 ingots is so incredibly easy).

In closing…please for the love of God. Read this before saying who “grindy” this game is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_

I’m always surprised when groups skip him…he’s so easy. He raises his hand and glows yellow before he pulls/smashes. How is this hard to miss and/or dodge? I don’t get it.

tic.7425:

Evelynddra.9265:

tic.7425:

Ald.9418:

tic.7425:

Ald.9418:

Sometimes i wish we’d go back to forced grouping to even level.

This would weed out everyone that refuse to be social and actually do stuff with other people.

Go back to?

really…

I don’t remember ever needing to be forced to group in any early MMOs.

You don’t remember having to be in a group and finding a camp to pull mobs to you as the only form of leveling? MMO’s existed before 2005.

Players were more like minded then and went out of their way to help others because they had to, otherwise they’d get nothing done. While i don’t miss the huge time sinks, i do miss this aspect.

2005, heh, i was playing them back in 1994 with Neverwinter Nights, then on to Ultima Online in ’97. I was never “forced” to group. Star Wars Galaxies, DAoC…

You could group to force pull mobs, probably helped you level faster, but you werent “forced” to. Which of these games were you playing that “forced” you to group?

I just commented, but I HAD to reply to this. Any game that wasn’t made in the West. Basically. Ragnarok Online, Maplestory, Shaiya, Priston Tale, Silkroad Online, Astonia 3 (I freaking loved this one, shoutout to anyone who may have played it!), EQ (not sure on this, correct me if I’m wrong), Runescape, Aion (at launch, unsure of grind status now). I am positive there’s more, but I can’t remember them all. Keep in mind, some of these may have changed since I played. Also some do have quests; leveling was mainly done by mob grinding though.

Interesting, can safetly say i don’t believe i played any of those games other than Aion (i remember levelling solo at times in that game), they weren’t really my speed.

The original person i commented on, gave (at least to me) the impression that back in the day, the only way to level in MMOs was forced grouping, which i thought simply wasn’t true, and definetly not in any games i played, thats why asked for examples. I wasn’t completly doubting it, just doubting thats the only way it used to be.

Though i was never a fan of korean grinders, so that might explain some things. Regardless, i can go back to ’94 with no forced grouping.

/shrug

Ah, I read his comment as more of a “these types of games have existed for ages, a good amount of them were grind only before 2005 (or before quests became the norn)”. When I first started playing MMORPGs (around the 2000s), I definitely mainly played ones that were grind only. I honestly never played one that wasn’t grindy until I started WoW when WotLK came out. A few were solely Korean types (Silkroad/RO), a couple were Western (Astonia3/Runescape), and some were Westernized Korean ones (Aion/Shaiya). Grindy games are definitely something commonly found in Korean MMOs, but there are some Western that do. Just far less.

tic.7425:

Ald.9418:

tic.7425:

Ald.9418:

Sometimes i wish we’d go back to forced grouping to even level.

This would weed out everyone that refuse to be social and actually do stuff with other people.

Go back to?

really…

I don’t remember ever needing to be forced to group in any early MMOs.

You don’t remember having to be in a group and finding a camp to pull mobs to you as the only form of leveling? MMO’s existed before 2005.

Players were more like minded then and went out of their way to help others because they had to, otherwise they’d get nothing done. While i don’t miss the huge time sinks, i do miss this aspect.

2005, heh, i was playing them back in 1994 with Neverwinter Nights, then on to Ultima Online in ’97. I was never “forced” to group. Star Wars Galaxies, DAoC…

You could group to force pull mobs, probably helped you level faster, but you werent “forced” to. Which of these games were you playing that “forced” you to group?

I just commented, but I HAD to reply to this. Any game that wasn’t made in the West. Basically. Ragnarok Online, Maplestory, Shaiya, Priston Tale, Silkroad Online, Astonia 3 (I freaking loved this one, shoutout to anyone who may have played it!), EQ (not sure on this, correct me if I’m wrong), Runescape, Aion (at launch, unsure of grind status now). I am positive there’s more, but I can’t remember them all. Keep in mind, some of these may have changed since I played. Also some do have quests; leveling was mainly done by mob grinding though.

darkace.8925:

What do you people like?

TC doesn’t want to do anything that requires him to work with a PUG. That rules dungeons and Fractals out. Johny doesn’t want to do any form of PvP. That rules sPvP and WvW out. Timmy doesn’t like crafting. That rules crafting out. Billy hates spending money on gathering tools and salvage kits. So there go those objectives. Susie plays a strictly-supportive elementalist, so asking her to kill stuff isn’t fair.

Keep going and there’ll be nothing left. If all you whiners get your way, we’re either going to automatically complete the Monthly Achievement by virtue of logging on or we’re not going to have Monthly Achievements at all. Whoo-freaking-hoo!

Nail, meet head. You’re spot on.

All I gather from people complaining about the daily/monthly is that they don’t like…anything apparently. The crafting one took seconds. Seriously. I have 0 crafting. I grabbed some ore and BAM crafted 10 set of ingots. You can knock out revive/daily kills/dungeons/veteran/variety/dodge just by doing a couple runs. Events, hey look! You can complete revive/daily kills/veteran/dodge also! Harvesting? Spend 5 min in any zone (I like Orr, and trees/ore count as 3-4!). Underwater kills (also works towards daily kills/variety!), go to any lowbie zone and kill them easy peasy. Go talk to the laurel guy. One time. that’s the easiest one ever. I can’t imagine anyone would complain on that one.

I haven’t seen the monthly for this month yet, but last month’s one was hardly difficult. You didn’t even need to do the JPs, just find them (LA + overflow + alts = easy). Fractals…definitely more annoying with the d/c bug. I managed to finish it in a day, with little to no difficulty (even though I couldn’t do ANY until the 28th). WvW kills is beyond easy. Find a zerg/group, play for a bit and BAM kills (and karma!). Events, super easy (and ties in with dailies!).

When they add in selecting the tasks, well that’ll be even easier.

Fasalina.6571:

Evelynddra.9265:

I’ll just say one last thing to answer to you, since so far you were the only one that answered without bashing.

First, they did ban people yes, but in the mean time a great lot of money and items were introduced in the market.

The Godskull exploit was: craft some Godskull rare GSs ( I think other weapons worked too) throw them in the mystic force, the recipe was broken and have a very, very high chance to give a precursor. They didn’t do anything about it, except fix it after way too much time.

In the mean time I remembered quite a few that show how much prior better and longer testing is important. I’ll just list one: fractals. First they released it half finished where agony crap with slightly better stats where available only there ( and they already said it was a mistake)
The the DC problems appeared where you were unable to finish a run if you were disconnected (I personally lost a good amount of time , when people dced left and right).
They come along and say, it’ll be released when ready, then how is it that this was implemented when it was obviously not ready?
And when did they fix it? 2 months later.
Another thing, I’m coming from a great deal of other MMOS (I don’t know why people are telling me that MMOs aren’t for me, considering I’ve been playing them, long before some of you were born). In all these MMOS, a rollback was never a problem. Regarding the QQ about an eventual rollback, the company would state what was it for (ie. some people that found an exploit became very rich, possibly causing a really big inflation in prices later on (and it’s exactly what’s happening now) – just an example.
I for one, would be extremely happy if I had to loose just a few levels and a few drops, for the future of a game.

And last thing, I know they are human, and humans make mistakes, but is it possible that a whole company makes mistakes? (and not just one, but quite a few?).

Yeah, and that’s very unfortunate. But I’ve also seen how people respond to rollbacks . The couple that happened during my time playing WoW were reacted to VERY negatively, regardless of reason. The same thing happened on other games that dare rollback server. I’ve also seen how this community reacts to anything that they may not like. For example, a missing laurel. A rollback would cause these forums to explode in rage. Regardless of why it happened (people here seem to never care about the why).

There are lots of issues. They do not surprise me though, as this tends to be a common theme both in new games, and new expansions (whether this is good or bad is another topic lol). I’ve played many games, and been through many expansions and they are never perfect. Some have terribly annoying bugs, some are small. I do feel Anet are trying to fix things. Especially with the next patches which they say they are focusing on those more annoying bugs and issues. Sometimes they take lots of time, like the d/c bug (which I couldn’t do any fractals until it was fixed). The thing is, we don’t know the extent of the bug. We’re not all programmers, yet we think we know more about it and yell when it isn’t done when we want it.

Anet tends to have issues communicating, but this community never seems to be happy. If they say anything, we take it as absolute truth. If they keep it vague we cry that we want details. It’s a vicious cycle.

It’s also not the whole company making mistakes. They have departments that work on different things. The people who design it, likely aren’t the ones who actually program it (to an extent, I’m sure programmers have some say). Some things slip through that wouldn’t if they had a PTR (like the Wintersday exploit). So I strongly think a PTR would vastly improve the amount of issues that leak through. Also, more details on the patch notes. What exact changes were made, how much was added/taken/adjusted. That would cut a lot of speculation (like with Orr drop rates now), and allow people to easier figure out how to tackle dungeons. I do find it fairly odd that they do not do this.

Fasalina.6571:

The funny thing is that if they decided to actually ad 10 laurels for the January monthly. The situation would have been the opposite, and I bet every single White Knight in this thread would shush. “But, but I already did my monthly, what can I do now? Unfair unfair!!!111one”

No, I won’t stop playing this game because it’s the successor of one of the best games I ever experimented in my teens. (There’s a thing called post history for a forum member here, why don’t you check on people before starting bashing and calling a hater)

I complain because I want to make it better.
I used to defend this game with all my heart on every forum I ever found.
I am not bothered by the fact that I missed one laurel. I am bothered by the way Anet implements stuff without saying anything and without testing.
- Dyes becoming account bound – check
- Exotic weapons worth almost 0 Karma? – check (no rollback and a few, too little bans)
- Godskull exploit? – check (no rollback)
- Winter exploit? – check (no rollback, but some bans)

EDIT: and I probably missed a few

You’re right I would stop “white knighting”, because 10 is much more than one. I’m also sure Anet tests; it’s ridiculous to think they don’t. They may not have a PTR (which I feel would be a good idea), but I’m sure they do internal testing. Otherwise we’d have MANY more issues. Contrary to what you seem to believe though…sometimes things happen that Anet doesn’t expect. They’re not gods; they’re just regular people who make mistakes.

Dyes – The entire dye system was different. They changed it to one that, imo, is much better. They changed it before release, so I’m unsure what the fuss is about. Things change in beta, it happens.

Exotic – Remember the part where I said Anet are human and can make a mistake? Here’s one. I’m not sure you understand the effects of a rollback. If they did a server rollback, could you imagine the outcry? There were lots of people who abused that exploit…but there were many more that didn’t. A rollback would have been a TERRIBLE idea. As for bans, they did permaban 3000 players, and gave another 1000 a 72 hour ban. These were players who exploited it hundreds and thousands of times. I think this is an appropriate punishment. This was obviously a mistake, and those who abused it knew what they were doing.

Godskull – I actually hadn’t even heard of this one. Again though, rollback would be a terrible idea for the reasons listed above. Also, can you rollback a single character? I haven’t heard of this happening before in games. Even if it was possible though, it would still be a bad idea. The weapons were already in the system.

Winter – Again, rollback = bad idea. Huge outcry. Bans for those who really abused it. Not sure what else you’d want.

So to end…Anet devs are human. They make mistakes. They can also improve (yay PTR!). Unfortunately whining does nothing. If you want change then demonstrate how and what could change instead of saying "I don’t like this. FIX IT!”

Amurond.4590:

BlackestKnight.1278:

Everyone had the same opportunity. Some missed it.

No they didn’t. This may come as a shock but the world has different timezones. This update was very early morning during a weekday for some. Being penalized for living in a different timezone is silly.

I think the point is that the opportunity shouldn’t have existed in the first place.

No-one is being penalized for living in a different time zone. Penalized implies you are being punished. I’m positive the Areanet devs aren’t sitting there planning how to punish Oceanic players for being in a different time zone.

And as others have stated…it’s one laurel. ONE. Why there even needs to be a discussion is beyond me. It’s not fair, you’re right. I hate to burst your bubble though, but life isn’t fair. You did have the chance to get the extra laurel. No matter how much you say you didn’t, the fact is that it was available. Yes, it was at a time inconvenient for some, but it was there. So suck it up, and stop trying to label your whining about missing one (ONE) laurel as a discussion.

Errant Venture.9371:

My guess is that you would be able to force a disconnect to circumvent the Agony at the Jade Maw. I assume that, before a phase change, all but one or two people could force a disconnect, and then have the remaining people activate the phase change. The people left behind would eat the Agony-death but then the remaining players could reconnect, revive the downed players, finish the phase change, and continue on with the fight. This would let them continue progressing above level 50 (which was hard-capped due to a mechanics change in the last patch).

I was thinking it was something along those lines. Or simple avoid dying by d/c. Thankfully I have guildies that don’t mind the disconnecting, but it’s something I’ll have to keep in mind if I pug.

Also, thanks for the quick answer Robert!

I’m extremely grateful that the fractal disconnect issue was fixed, but I do have a question. When someone logs back in, why do we come back dead? I did some fractals with guildies yesterday, and anytime I disconnected I logged back on dead. I got disconnected about 4 times, and each time I was dead. Even if I disconnected with full health and near no baddies. Unfortunately, this still renders me useless for that fight unless we wipe, are near a checkpoint, or get out of combat quickly.

I don’t think it’s just me, as the same thing happened with a guildie who got disconnected. Perhaps it’s to prevent people from logging off before dying? At the same time, this prevents me from wanting to do fractals as I don’t want to be useless if I disconnect.

critickitten.1498:

Mesiphidon.8324:

Stop please stop making this an argument of semantics.

But that’s what it is.

You’re trying to redefine a word based on your own subjective point of view and are ignoring the dictionary definition of the word because it doesn’t suit your conclusion of what constitutes a “grind”.

Fact of the matter is that no one will ever 100% agree with someone else. This is the nature of subjectivity: it boils down to the personal biases of the individual in question. That is why I’m using an objective definition of the term (the dictionary) to assess whether or not the term “grind” applies to GW2, because the flipside means relying on one person’s opinion and ignoring all opinions contrary to it.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grind
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grind
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grind

Your “objective” use of the word doesn’t exist. If we use the closest informal use (laborious task) it still is subjective because what it laborious to you, may not be laborious to me. Even if we use it as repetitive task it’s subjective. There is ZERO objectivity in language. Words are comepletely subjective. I talk to friends everyday, is that a grind? I use my phone everyday, is that a grind? Both of these things I don’t HAVE to do (just like getting skins). I do them because I like it, so I don’t see it as a grind.

Now, if we think of grind in relation to video games that terms takes on another informal (but widely used) meaning. And it’s solely repetative/laborious task.

“Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_

Using it this way still doesn’t work with the idea of GW2 being grindy. There are multiple ways of various efficiencies to level and gear. Like crafting, gathering, WvW, hearts, story quest, dungeons, exploring and good ol mob killing. You can get gear by doing things for karma, tokens, or gold. There are also various methods for these ways. Different events, different dungeons, different activities that net you money.

A+ for effort though.

Celtic Lady.3729:

emikochan.8504:

I’m still not seeing any grind, I have everything I want from just playing normally and having fun.

Maybe the complainers are just impatient.

It’s a simple concept, really. I’m a different person than you. With me so far? Therefore, my experiences are likely to be different from yours. And other players’ experiences are different from mine. Therefore, while you may not be experiencing grind in your play, others like me are. We’re not impatient. It’s a matter that some of what we enjoy in the game requires farming and/or grind at times.

Again, your experiences are not the entire sum of the whole world. It is therefore illogical to assume that since one person (you) are not experiencing grind, all the rest of the thousands of players are also not.

This goes both ways. You may experience a grind, but it’s illogial to assume the rest of the thousands of players are also. So these threads are pointless.

People seem to have forgotten what a grind is though. As someone said, unless you’ve played a non-westernized Korean MMORPG you know ZERO about grinding. There is zero grinding, because you are NOT FORCED TO DO THINGS. You don’t need to grind to level, you don’t even need to grind to gear, or see content.

The only grinding that exists is for skins. Even then, I’m loathe to call that a grind. Skins are purely optional. Choosing to do something then calling it a grind doesn’t make sense. Because grind does not mean choosing to farm for mats to get a shiny new skin.

Isslair.4908:

I don’t understand what people mean by saying “I’ll use guesting to play with mah friends”.

I mean, if you want to do dungeons – it can be done cross-server anyways.

PvP and WvW is not covered by guesting, so that’s not the case either.

So what do you want to do? Talking in LA’s map chat? Randomly running around? There’s like no content for guesting in GW2, besides the dragons\temples hopping.

You’re kidding right? I have a group of friends on a different server (I wanted more WvW, so went to one that was better). I like playing with them a lot. Not just in dungeons. Sometimes we like to compare armor looks. Or see what we think of each others dye choices. Or we see a cool player somewhere. Or feel like doing jumping puzzles. Or leveling an alt. Or just helping with story line quests. Or doing CS farming. Or yes, just running around and exploring things.

This is a feature I’m going to use 90% of the time. Bascially, when I don’t want to PVP/WvW, I’ll be guesting on that server. Just because YOU won’t use it because YOU are too boring to find things to do, doesn’t mean it’s useless.

I’m having this same issue. Leveling from 1-30ish is incredibly tedious. Simply because you have to do the starter zones so much. I’ve currently got three 15s (and one 36) sitting around because while I really want to level them, I just don’t want to tackle the same zones again (I’ve seriously done Queensdale 5+ times now).

That said, once you hit 30 and dungeons open up I find it goes a lot faster. So much so that I skipped zones because I outleveled them so much.

Edit: Just to be clear, I do also fully explore maps. Along with doing whatever puzzles are there. I gather like no one’s business. The only thing I don’t do is crafting. As I find that thoroughly boring. For me the problem isn’t so much that I’m underleveled (though I tend to be), I just have done the starting zones so much that I really have no desire to do them again. I know once I hit 30ish it’ll speed up significantly, so I have no issue with the leveling after that. It’s the 1-30 part that is much more tedious.

If low levels want to do fractals, that’s cool. I think it’s kinda rude to join pugs if you’re that low though. Sure that low level could be the best player ever…but I don’t know that. When you join a group, it isn’t just about you. There are 4 other people spending their time to do this. Its rude to expect them to risk wasting it on the off-chance the low level was good. When it comes to pugs, I’d rather take an 80 who would live through more hits if they do it wrong, then the lower level who won’t.

Just like I won’t do fractals until the fix the d/c issue. I sometimes have connection issues, and it’d be rude of me to waste their time on the chance I do d/c.

Edit: As a side note, does anyone have the numbers on the scaling? Obviously a 16 upscaled is nowhere near as strong as an 80, but exactly how much do they get upscaled?

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Evelynddra.9265:

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Scavenger hunt thread:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey guys,

Just a quick update on where the whole scavenger hunt system stands since I know that’s a topic many of you have brought up recently. We’re not currently actively working on building any sort of legendary precursor scavenger hunt, this is something we want to do in the future and we’re in the midst of designing how this would function, but no one is actively building this feature and you should not expect in the Jan/Feb/March releases at this point.

We are however working on expanding reward systems to make them more re-rewarding across all parts of the game, making the open world more rewarding, and adding new ways you can earn precursors as rewards via new reward systems taking advantage of our open persistent world.

Some of these additions will come as early as the January release, and will get covered in more detail in the next week or two as well release all the details about this release once testing has signed off it’s all ready to go in January. (we’ll also provide a high level summary of our goals with reward systems, etc. in our 2013 blog post, which should be out next week)

Source

Now:

I just want to quickly clarify to set expectations, nothing in the blog post, nor nothing we’ve said anywhere has said you will be able to buy precursor items directly for crowns, this is not the case. We’ve simply said we’ll try and find some other places to add a chance to get them to the game until we’ve implemented the eventual precursor scavenger hunt.

Long term we’ll be working on the scavenger hunt concept to track down and earn a precursor item as a direct form of earning the reward. We’ll discuss that in more detail in the future once a design and implementation has been finalized.

Thoughts?

I’m beginning to think people can’t read anymore. Or at least don’t comprehend what they’re reading.

Colin is 100% correct. Nowhere did he say, nor imply you’d get precursors for crowns. New rewards systems does not mean from achievement rewards. Just because you assumed that was it, doesn’t mean it is. You know what they say about assuming.

Now, do people also notice that pesky s at the end of systems? An s at the end of noun means more than one. So more than one reward system. People need to stop reading so deep into what they say, because you’ll probably be wrong and then we have people kitten because they assumed the devs said something when they really didn’t.

Is it not, perhaps, incorrect for you to assume that the achievement awards is the only reason for the kittening?

This precursor fiasco has been going on since launch with some people waiting for months now to complete their legendaries.

With that in mind, do you think it is a good idea to state that: “We are however working on expanding reward systems to make them more re-rewarding across all parts of the game, making the open world more rewarding, and adding new ways you can earn precursors as rewards via new reward systems taking advantage of our open persistent world.” thus, putting renewed hope in the hearts of many who have been patiently waiting on a fix (however temporary), then follow it up with “We’ve simply said we’ll try and find some other places to add a chance to get them”?

Thoughts?

In this situation, my response was only to this thread, and people twisting devs words. Not the precursor situation. So there is no assumption on my part.

These two statements are not contradictory. They said they are working on it. In other words…not set in stone. Then he said they’re trying to add it in. I see no statement that said they ARE adding them in. Simply they will try, and are working on it.

Again, people are reading WAY too much into these statements. This is why devs don’t give information. We assume what they mean, twist them to suit what we want, then scream they’re lying when they say it’s not what they meant or said.

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Scavenger hunt thread:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey guys,

Just a quick update on where the whole scavenger hunt system stands since I know that’s a topic many of you have brought up recently. We’re not currently actively working on building any sort of legendary precursor scavenger hunt, this is something we want to do in the future and we’re in the midst of designing how this would function, but no one is actively building this feature and you should not expect in the Jan/Feb/March releases at this point.

We are however working on expanding reward systems to make them more re-rewarding across all parts of the game, making the open world more rewarding, and adding new ways you can earn precursors as rewards via new reward systems taking advantage of our open persistent world.

Some of these additions will come as early as the January release, and will get covered in more detail in the next week or two as well release all the details about this release once testing has signed off it’s all ready to go in January. (we’ll also provide a high level summary of our goals with reward systems, etc. in our 2013 blog post, which should be out next week)

Source

Now:

I just want to quickly clarify to set expectations, nothing in the blog post, nor nothing we’ve said anywhere has said you will be able to buy precursor items directly for crowns, this is not the case. We’ve simply said we’ll try and find some other places to add a chance to get them to the game until we’ve implemented the eventual precursor scavenger hunt.

Long term we’ll be working on the scavenger hunt concept to track down and earn a precursor item as a direct form of earning the reward. We’ll discuss that in more detail in the future once a design and implementation has been finalized.

Thoughts?

I’m beginning to think people can’t read anymore. Or at least don’t comprehend what they’re reading.

Colin is 100% correct. Nowhere did he say, nor imply you’d get precursors for crowns. New rewards systems does not mean from achievement rewards. Just because you assumed that was it, doesn’t mean it is. You know what they say about assuming.

Now, do people also notice that pesky s at the end of systems? An s at the end of noun means more than one. So more than one reward system. People need to stop reading so deep into what they say, because you’ll probably be wrong and then we have people kitten because they assumed the devs said something when they really didn’t.

Weindrasi.3805:

Mirta.5029:

Evelynddra.9265:

Uhh….I don’t get why the game needs nudity. I’m cool with it, but it really doesn’t add or take away anything in the game. So….why does GW2 (or fantasy games in general) need more nudity? Games are already highly sexualized, do we really need to add full on nudity as well? And don’t tell me this isn’t about it being sexualized. There is zero reason for nudity to exist in this game’s environment. I feel the same about skimpy armor, but I think GW2 has a very good balance between skimpy and not skimpy.

The way you use the term “sexualized” gives me the impression that you think it’s inherently bad, almost like comparing it to actual harmful things.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with nudity and sexualisation as long as it’s done equally for all and with the option to filter it in the options, the same way we do for language. I would then warmly welcome it. However it’s not very much needed but I do like having my characters look good

Sexuality and sexualization are not inherently bad—you’re correct. The issue is that sexualization is often used to dehumanize. If sexualization is used to portray someone as an object to be used, or a lesser human being, that’s an issue. Even though nudity would be available to all characters, you’d still be treading rocky territory when you consider issues like the portrayal of naked children or women…

If people want to create their own private nudity mods, great. They have the freedom to do so. But I don’t think it’s wise to include nudity as a public thing, and I think Arenanet realizes this also.

Yes exactly. Nothing wrong with things being sexualized…in context. There is no context for toons being nude in the game. We do nothing in the game world which would require taking off clothes…besides armor changes really. So what point would there be to adding nudity? If there is none (which I have seen no reason posted yet), then it’s simply to sexualize the toons. Which is not about expressing sexuality in a positive light, but simply because someone wanted to look at their toon naked for their enjoyment. That’s my issue with this desire to have nude as an option. It’s not for looks, it’s for your pleasure.

Hellmood.2097:

I think adding more revealing clothes for female characters will cause a huge kittenstorm on the internet. This whole feminist gamer fad is basically watching games everyday and pull a gigantic “NO FUN ALLOWED, MY POOR FEELINGS” when they detect anything they feel offended by and manage to stir up a real commotion.

I too wish we had more revealing clothing, especially for medium and heavy classes. For males too, for equality.

Oh noes! The feminists are out to get your games and ruin your fun (of staring at pixel ladies)! Because women don’t play games…of course. And if they do, their opinion doesn’t matter…amirite? MOAR NAKED LADIES!
/sarcasm

Sorry if people like more options than the tired old chainmail bikini. That being said, I do think GW2 has a nice split. That is skimpy or not. I would definitely like to see more deisgn options though. Many armors tend to be very similar to each other.

Uhh….I don’t get why the game needs nudity. I’m cool with it, but it really doesn’t add or take away anything in the game. So….why does GW2 (or fantasy games in general) need more nudity? Games are already highly sexualized, do we really need to add full on nudity as well? And don’t tell me this isn’t about it being sexualized. There is zero reason for nudity to exist in this game’s environment. I feel the same about skimpy armor, but I think GW2 has a very good balance between skimpy and not skimpy.

No. Just no. P2W DOES NOT mean pay to level/gear/whatever faster. Stop, just stop. I don’t care if YOU think it means that. I can say the sky is green all I want…but it doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t. You don’t “win” by getting the same level as everyone, or getting the same gear faster. P2W has always meant paying money to be better than the rest (to win). Paying for gear, or paying for the best skills, etc.

If someone wants to pay the hundreds of dollars for an 80 and legendary skin (because legendaries ARE NOT BIS, they have ZERO advantage over any weapon), then go ahead. It’s their money, and them having a shiny sword or leveling faster than me MEANS NOTHING. In a month or even weeks, I’ll be on the same level. Which is a perfectly good time frame, imho.

As for gearing being too hard/long. You’re not serious…right? I hit 80, and am fully geared 2 weeks later. All exotic trinkets, weapon, armor, runes and sigil. I bought it all too (except my chest piece, which I got for karma).I didn’t grind for any of it. Nor did I play the TP). Hell, I haven’t even gotten many good drops to sell (seriously, one core and 4 exotics tops). I don’t spend hours grinding. I ran a few dungeons, completed maps, did jumping puzzles, some events, WvW etc. All things I enjoy. Want to know the easiest ways to not waste your gold? Don’t buy new gear while leveling. Not only do upgrade come often…generally it’s so easy to level you can do it in gear many levels below (I got to 80 in mostly level 50-60 greens). Use the TP! Sell the materials/dyes/greens whatever you have. Always make sure to check vendor price first though. Sure those crystals are selling on the TP for 1s 15c…but that’s without the tax. When selling, don’t sell for the buy order price. Seriously. Always always check how much people are SELLING for. Always do that by right clicking the item and going to buy more. The TP doesn’t update prices on the sell tab often. Many times the item I’m looking to sell will sell for 10-20s MORE than what was shown in the sell tab. If you’re buying…use a buy order! Patience makes your gold last longer. Sometimes the gain is a lot (1-2g), sometimes it’s small. It’s always saved money though. And last, but not least. Often you end up losing money putting it on the TP if you don’t pay attention.

Just curious, but if you know you’re going to possibly go afk at any time…do you warn the group beforehand? People tend to be willing to work with you…if they know whats going on. I know I personally find it terribly frustrating to have someone randomly go afk. I can’t imagine it’d take much time to either warn the group before proceding, or a quick reason why you’re going afk, and even a guess at how long you’d be gone.

Edit: I’m also sure lots of people are still jerks, but I’m sure there are lots that aren’t. And if you warn ahead of time then the group (or jerk) can decide if they’re okay with this or now. It’d save a lot of headaches I think.

Vertical progression is fine, in some circumstances. Like if there is a set goal. For instance leveling. You get better every time you level, but there is a solid goal. Hitting level 80. Vertical progression with gear CAN work. Just not the way it’s done currently. The set goals are too temporary. The progression is too large. Take for example, the end game gear from WotLK, and the level 81 greens. They were SO much better. The difference was way too big.

I like getting better gear. I like seeing my progression on my character. Not just skins. Most major MMOs release too many new loot tables, too often. The improvements are too large and often too time consuming. They cause other players to fall behind very quickly.

The way I think vertical gear progression could work is say….a major expansion every year (or whatever long time frame). That expansion will have ONE new tier of gear (and whatever else mobs/skins/titles ect.). The new gear tier should be the new exotics (stat wise). Obviously it’d be more complicated should said expansion have the level cap raised. Even then I’d want to gear improvements to be enough to notice, but not enough to hinder people who don’t have that gear set. The new tier should be a bit more expensive (again, not enough that it will be a lot harder for new players to get it) than the previous tier. Those who have the previous will have the resoucres to spend on it. While those who don’t will either skip the previous tier and save for that newer one, or get the previous and not see themselves hindered. Obviously this is not a perfect fix, and there are details that need to be adressed. It is something I think could please people who like gear upgrades, while not making it hard on those who don’t.

I’m all for skimpy armor. As long as there are equal (or close to) options for male skimpy, and not skimpy. I think, for the most part, GW2 has done well with this. Except for males. Female toons have lots of skimpy options, and non skimpy. Though when you divide it by class, there is some disparity. Cloth has plently of skimpy options, medium has few, and heavy a couple. Perhaps balancing that out a bit more would be good. As long as there are options. That includes more than just a trenchcoat for medium armor.

As for skimpy being always made to appeal to male gaze because of advertising and sex sellling…what about women? Looking at the opposite sex isn’t solely a male activity. Plus, honestly, if the only (or main) reason you play/do not play a game is because the female armor is skimpy is ridiculous. You want half naked ladies? The internet is FULL of them. Even dressed in skimpy fantasy looks. Y

leprekan.7248:

Mirta.5029:

I know a person that is still playing SWTOR and is enjoying it. 80% of SWTOR players left in protest because of Mass Effect 3. There were even forums and videos about it at the time.
What I’m seeing on the forums is a lot of entitled whinners. “It’s all because of the cash shop”, “I want them to remove dungeons”, “I’m saying that this game is all about grinding, but when they introduced an anti grind policy I’m going to tell them that they did everything wrong”. There’s no satisfying these people. The same way that yesterday on the stream of Kerbal Space program some people started swearing and threatening the developers because they were showing a Kerbal maker instead of the game. They were also rushing devs to release it, even though you can buy and play in beta and receive FREE upgrades that are expanding the game. You know what they got in return? They got told that if they decide to be kitten again they will be blocked. ArenaNet is too patient. Plus I bet if they would say that people would rage with “I’m quiting then”. Well quit. I personally want them to quit. Maybe if 40% of the players left we would have an enjoyable game where people are glad about the free content and not whinning like a little prick.

Two words should be avoided at all costs … “entitled” and “entitlement” they make the user look like a lemming that parrots current trends in political jargon. Sorry but the use of these word became popular by Republicans slinging rhetoric for people that lack the ability to use critical thinking.

Those “entitlement” programs that are “out of money” are not out of money because of legitimate use. Congress borrowed 2.7 TRILLION dollars out of them and did not repay it … there is your shortfall. Feel free to use Google and educate yourself before continuing to use either of those words and making yourself appear to be yet another lemming on the jargon bandwagon.

As to the OP … agreed. DR and farmcode is soul crushing at best. It also looks bad when the game company actually sells gold if they LIMIT how much you can generate by playing in a legitimate fashion. There is nothing worse than killing a mob and having NOTHING drop. They preach no grind and that is the very epitome of GRIND.

Why does a player need gold? Want tier 3 armor? You need gold. Want a commander icon? You need gold. Want a legendary? You need over 1 THOUSAND gold. Anet most definitely coded a NEED for gold into the game. When they limit and SELL at the same time it is very easy for people to view them in a very negative light.

I am personally down to grinding gold for my precursor (dusk) and have all other objectives completed. Unfortunately the price of the precursor is out pacing my capacity to generate gold. Yes, that is a REAL issue to me and all the other people in the same boat that I am in.

Why do I need a legendary? I don’t and neither do you. However, we don’t need anything in this MMO or any other MMO now do we. The legendary is about as cool looking as you can get in this game and the devs went all out making them (thank you Anet) so I would actually question those that don’t try to get one before I would get all high and mighty and play the “you don’t have to get one” card.

Anet created a need for gold. We are happy to grind for it … for God’s sakes take the boat anchor okittens and let us do it.

Whoa there. You’re massively mixing up real life and the game there. You are not entitled to ANYTHING in the game. Nothing in the game is a right. Whereas you are entitled to things in life. Like…being able to afford food. If you don’t see a difference between these different versions of entitlement…well it might be a good idea to lessen your focus on the game.

As for the topic of making money….let us be clear on the complaint. It’s not that you CAN’T make money, it’s that you don’t make it FAST enough (for you).I do flip on the TP. I tend to prefer low risk, low profit markets. I list my orders…then go do something else. I’ve had no issues with money (granted I’m not planning on getting a legendary anytime soon). It’s incredibly simple to make gold (farming and/or TP playing). Even just doing things like not repairing armor until something actually breaks, or not taking WPs can save you loads. When you buy/sell make take a quick look what’s actually on the auction. Stop quick selling. A lot of the time that price isn’t updated, or there’ll be 1 or 2 listings at 50s, and the rest at 1g. Check order prices compared to sell prices. More often than not you’ll sell at a decent rate if you list it rather than quick sell. If you’re excuse is that this it “too hard”, then you’re just lazy.

It’s not hard; it just requires a slight bit more thought and effort.