Guild Wars 2

There might be a few fixes tomorrow but I doubt there will be anything decent in it. Tomorrow is the Dragon Bash patch, because we all know that’s what the game really needs.

They haven’t said anything about the new condition or much of anything else in any announcements so I wouldn’t expect anything decent towards class fixes for tomorrow.

This really did not warrant a new topic, but I found it interesting while testing with Melandru runes and a friend in SPVP.

If you have base condition duration, and someone is using melandru runes, your barbed precision bleed actually does zero damage when it procs alone. However like other conditions, if you already have one ticking for damage (like a longer bleed or a poison) it can deal damage if it happens to be active when that damage tick occurs.

Also, another interesting thing we figured out that I posted elsewhere is that Melandru runes reduce BASE duration, not extended duration. It has been posted in error all over the forums, but + condition duration cancels out – condition duration exactly. Tested using BIP and melandru runes in SPVP.

So if you run +100% duration, and they have -65%, you are still over your base duration at 135% total duration.

Rennoko.5731:

Also, another interesting thing we figured out that I posted elsewhere is that Melandru runes reduce BASE duration, not extended duration. It has been posted in error all over the forums, but + condition duration cancels out – condition duration exactly. Tested using BIP and melandru runes in SPVP.

Holy kitten.

The extent to which I’ve seen this stated as being the other way around is insane.

It’s even buried in the mountain of words here lol.

Bacon Please.8407:

5: Playing a thief really changes your outlook on how they operate. When everyone says Play one to Learn one, They really mean it. When I got to 80 on my thief and spent a hundred or so hours in WvW with it, I was able to get back to my warrior and I could SEE WITH MY OWN EYES exactly what the thief was going to do before they could.

You too can counter thieves and all you need to do is spend 100 hours playing thief first!!!

It was so predictable “Okay he is using D/D and just used Cloak and dagger, probably going for a backstab in 3,2,1… EVADE” What do you know, He missed and i stun locked him with a hammer.

Oh wait, no, you can counter the BAD thieves who are predictable. Because good thieves are not predictable folks. Predictability is the sign of someone relying on a gimmick, gimmick users are not good players. Example 100b warrior vs a good warrior who happens to use the great sword.

I honestly feel silly for ever complaining about thieves. They are an annoyance at best for experiences players and really only kill people learning to get around WvW. So if you keep getting killed by thieves play one at level 80 for a few hours in WvW and see how hard it really is.

Ironically he can only counter predictable thieves after playing thief for over 100 hours, but calls anyone that cannot counter them “people learning to get around in WvW.”

So after months of complaining I rolled a thief and now after getting decent at it I can say the following…

Oh and he says all of this after spending over 100 hours playing thief and only considering himself “getting decent at it”. So is basing his judgements of how easy it is to counter thief off of him self-admittedly not even being good at it himself after over 100 hours of play on it.

Oh and the best for last:

Bacon Please.8407:

Ralathar.7236:

Perfect example of how jacked facing a thief is right now. I’m fighting a thief as a turret engie (Ya I know, but it’s fun :P). Hit him a few times and place my turrets as he enters for the kill. Pop my turret abilities and he gets perma-blinded, has like 10 seconds of burning, has 6+ stacks of bleed, Rocket Turret lands the first knockdown, I time the supply crate for the second stun, rocket turret knocks down a third time. All knockdowns in a row without him being able to act after eating the first one.

At this point the thief still has all the burning, bleeding, and now poison on him, is at 5% hp, and is stunned on his back while immobilized. Shadow Return, Hide in Shadows, runs away at half health with no conditions on him already out of combat.
.
.
.
So lets add this up, shadow return removes 3 conditions, teleports you back to where you started from up to 1,200 away, and breaks stun instantly. Hide in Shadows removes all damaging conditions, so any conditions that hurt would be gone and the thief is far away stealthed and running away.

I really don’t know what more I could have done. I condition stacked, immobilized, stunned, and generally wrecked his face but he gets a get out of jail free card. I mean ya I wrecked his face because he was blatantly terrible (rocket turret knockdown is MASSIVELY telegraphed), but he still doesn’t even have to die for being terrible.

He used his skills wisely just as you did. Congrats, he ran away. you won.

Because making a thief run away in open field is winning apparently. But them winning is me dying. Seems legit.

Some nice quotes that bring into question the objectivity and honesty of the OP.

Bacon Please.8407:

bladie.5084:

WereDragon.6083:

i’m a P/D thief and I can’t kill D/P thieves.

Nobody can kill a D/P thief.

I am D/P and I have been killed. Therefore your statement is flawed

D/P thief, the weapon combo most in danger of drawing nerfs with extremely high amounts of stealth and the ability to actually heartseeker through black powder and gain stealth even if they hit someone.

Bacon Please.8407:

Engineers and thieves are two entirely different classes. It is like comparing candy to steak. Both can be tasty and have their appealing characteristics and neither are better then the other. I’ve seen an engineer face tank a well coordinated team of players and down two of the 5 before escaping. I Can’t say I’ve seen a thief operate that well other then a few assorted videos here on the forums and ever there it looked like the people that were being killed had no idea what they were doing.

Says that he has seen engineers "face tank a team of well coordinated players and down two of the 5 before escaping. Because an bunker engineer is going to down 2 players out of a well coordinated team of 5…..

Bacon Please.8407:

I Can’t say I’ve seen a thief operate that well other then a few assorted videos here on the forums and ever there it looked like the people that were being killed had no idea what they were doing.

Because you totally look like you know what you are doing when spamming AOE on possible locations of a player you have no way to see or know is there or even still present.

Bacon Please.8407:

The best way to beat a thief is to play a thief. This is coming from a warrior main and let me tell you, it really works.

The irony of this post….

Bacon Please.8407:

I used to main warrior up until a few weeks ago. Hundreds of hour, hundreds of gold spent on multiple sets of gear, runes, weapons, sigils. Just rolled a thief and a mesmer. They both outclass my warrior on everything. Will proabably never touch my warrior again until they either revamp it. Thief and Mesmer is where it is at for pvp and wvw.

join the bandwagon

When he said this one earlier. He now mains a D/P thief as you can see from two of these quotes and is eager to defend his new mains after being unable to match them as warrior and considering no other class on par with them except a well played mesmer.

Bacon Please.8407:

…I could SEE WITH MY OWN EYES exactly what the thief was going to do before they could. It was so predictable “Okay he is using D/D and just used Cloak and dagger, probably going for a backstab in 3,2,1… EVADE” …

“…wtf? Where did he go?”

I did that to a warrior once who were predicting my moves. I just stealth and watch him wait for me to pop-out from a safe distance.

LOL

The fact is, if a warrior can predict a Thief, a warrior is much more predictable.

Don’t kid yourself. Thieves learns from experience too.

We are so good at our profession that Anet has to nerf us just so warrior has a chance. :P

Actually stealth has very little counters. I’m a thief main since day 1 and most of the counters people speak about have counters too.

Like timing 1.2.3. roll…?? Seriously? Wow the thief only has to wait until you waste the roll then spam the back stab on you.

I did the same thing as the OP, and came to the conclusion that stealth is a stupid mechanic (especially the D/P build).

Normal Thief: Hurr Durr he used Whirling Wrath let me pop Blinding Powder now I can’t take any damage (right?) and oops I died, Stealth is so easy to counter!

Thief who knows how to play: He used Whirling Wrath let me dodge out of it.

Normal Thief: Oh I just went invisible I will just walk in a straight line, how did that Engineer hit me with Grenades? Stealth is so easy to counter!

Thief who knows how to play: I just hit stealth and will now change directions

Normal Thief: Shadow Refuge, look there’s a Mesmer with a Greatsword, let’s just stand here!

Thief who isn’t brain-dead: Dodge!

After playing a lot of classes and coming back to playing a Thief, it’s so darned easy to see how people try and counter stealth, and that there is actually very little way to stop it.

Not discounting the OP’s opinion, of course, but that’s what I personally found.

Since I traited it, i like the Arrow Cart very much. Sometimes the Ballista too.

Nah, srsly. It is X/D for me. Often Running D/D + S/D. I know it would synergize better w/ D/P, but I like to have them pelotas.

Okay so just so everyone knows, after posting my long winded post, I decided to go test this for myself. As it turns out, I was wrong, and lots of other people too.

In SPVP using Blood is Power which is a 30 second base bleed.

With Base condition duration on my necro:
Target without melandru runes = 30 seconds
Target with melandru runes = 22 seconds

With +75% condition duration on my necro
Target without melandru runes = 52 seconds
Target with melandru runes = 44 seconds

If the runes were working off the cast duration, that reduction would be 13 seconds in the second case, and it is around 8 seconds, or 25% off the base duration.

Now I did not test against lemongrass, as I would need to find a willing party on another server in WvW to help out, who happen to also have melandru runes, but I have no reason to believe it would work any differently.

I take back my complains.

I also tested with immobilize on the necro dagger 3, but the durations are fairly short so it is hard to get conclusive data like the above. Basically it took about 1 second off the immobilize (which is 4 seconds), no matter what + duration I had.

Anyone with -96% duration (ele for cripple/chill/immob) on Fort Aspenwood or EBay want to meet me in WvW, I can test what +100% duration cripple does against -96% duration and make a video of it.

Regardless if the OP obsessed with the food or not really doesn’t matter…a food that makes condition builds useless in WvW is just wrong on Anet’s part. Like someone pointed out…a -40% crit damage would cause all hell.

Don’t /laugh or /dance on their body, for starters.

I try to explain this rationally to people and it normally falls short… I feel like I commented on this last time it came up, possibly the same poster.

It has been proven the effect of minus duration applies after the + duration has been added in. It also only makes sense when you consider how the effects interact with one another.

I cast cripple on you, and its duration which is normally 10 seconds, is applied at 20 seconds, because I have +100% duration.

Your counter-food, has an effect applied, with a source duration of 20 seconds, uses its -40% multiplier, and now the effect is only 12 seconds.

You can take that further to the extreme cases where people are getting this number very high, as were mentioned above and nearly negating all (of some) conditions.

While I will say it is quite an investment to get to those super high -condition duration builds, they also completely negate effects with shorter durations, to the point you just need to build the rest of your stats around sustain, and avoidance on physical damage, and you are essentially impossible to kill. (see elementalists with high uptime on protection with high healing power).

The food should just interact with the base duration, and reduce that, of each of the effects. That way it is even with the +duration food. Or make it so it doesn’t stack with other -duration effects.

If you don’t see this as a powerful food, then you are ignoring the stat budget for how to get -40% duration from other sources. The same can be said of +40% duration, which is equally overbudget, but easier to get within the game stat budget.

Show me any rune combination, with gear included, and stats that can get you to -40% duration on incoming conditions? (Leaving specific traits out).

Now doing the same thing with +duration, you can find several avenues that end in +40% duration or more. Condition duration tree can be up to 30%, Giver’s weapons can give 10% duration a slot, Lyssa/Madking together can get you 20%.

But with duration, you are capped at 100% by the game, so you cannot do better than that, while with -duration, your cap is that you are effectively immune to conditions. The problem here is the extreme cases and the stacking.

Azaruil.3406:

Travlane.5948:

ugh…i shouldnt have used p/d as an example. and i do die to classes other than thieve plenty of times. its not a kill all build. but any build thats offensive based should have a chance at some lvl to kill another. it shouldnt be a HARD COUNTER. ok let me switch to my necro. or my engineer. very condition heavy and reliant classes but also not great (perhaps some engi builds) in the 1 v 1 department. how do they deal with this?we all know that cripple/ice is a necros friend…..immobilize is an engineers lbest friend. why should they have a hard counter?

it doenst matter if you have +500% condition dmg….it wont mean diddly :P like i said the -40% cond dur is MUCH stronger than the +40% they are not equal.

The trait on ele and warriors is -33% immobilize, chill and cripple duration. This doesn’t effect other conditions.

You are right about the -40% condi duration being more powerful than the +40% condi duration but it seems you didn’t explain it clearly.

For starters, +% condi duration isn’t cumulative. It only seems to affect the base number. So lets say you have your base condi is 10 seconds and you have +30% duration from runes, +30% from traits and +40% from food. It wont add the +30% ones to 17 seconds and then apply the +40% to the 17 seconds, but instead the 10 seconds. The -% condi duration stacks on each other however.

Additionally, -% condi duration is applied after your total condi duration is applied. Let’s say your base condi is 10 seconds and you only add the food to give you 14 seconds. -40% would then put the condi at 8.4 seconds.

also the 65% is enough to cripple any build as is. but 98% on crip immob ice is just crazy……..ok check it out……when fightin an ele u know that they knock you down you know that they chill you alot and can even immobilize you. so the entire time you are tryign to catch up with them you ahve to do 2 things….. A) remove your chill/immob/cripple and cripple/immob/chill them which is 2% effective or basically might as well say 0. all the time they are just barely out of range and strike with the meat adn potatoes dmg ksills and then chill you or w.e. and step back until they are ready to rinse repeat. this is just what i noticed….i mean they have alot more heals than all but guardians so its hard to keep up the dmg when u cant keep them within range/enough condition dmg…..even conditions they dont have on 98% then can cleanse regularly. i mean i didnt lose to the ele…i could have if i didnt decide to accept the draw.

hey guys just wanted to see what everyone else thought of this build that ive seen a few times in wvw. Ele with food/runes/trait can get negative 98% condition time. they have insane heals great mobility and boons/toughness galore. dmg is decent too…not great but enough to kill somebody. What are your thoughts about this? i 100% shuts down maaaaaaaaaaaany many builds. unless ur running spike…and i mean like berserker spike you wont have enough dmg to kill this type…..not just that but you cant stop them. literally…how can you stop them? immob for .05 secs? :P pfft its not even up enough to see it on their condi bar. anyway is it just a troll build? roam build? or OP? what do you all think?

ps warriors can run a similar version although not as well…so can other classes but it seems ele runs it best bc of their mobility/heals and ability to spam skills without ever stopping (elements)

Login.5102:

Rennoko.5731:

I wouldn’t mix and match. I would commit to one or the other.

Personally I only see an advantage in taking Carrion if you plan to avoid Undead runes. Undead runes a very compelling reason to run full rabid.

I also disagree with the premise that the barbed precision bleeds do not make up for the difference in damage between white carrion and white rabid hits. In my experience, they more than make up for it. Against structures though, you are very correct in that rabid is horrid.

I tend to dislike vitality over toughness though. As a necro, in 95% of the fights, I rarely am concerned with conditions on me. Since toughness counters burst and vitality counters conditions and burst to a lesser degree, I go with toughness.

Zerker thieves can hit me for 7-8k on a backstab, with 1800 toughness. With base toughness in Carrion its going to hit a lot harder, and my heals are not going to make up for that with my very poor sustain. I prefer stronger heals with a smaller HP pool when I am playing necro. (Ele/guardian/ranger can make use of the extra HP because they can overheal it… we cannot).

I used to be all about rabid myself, but that changed. Most necros don’t go undead runes after the terror buff. Rune of nightmare is it. The fear(even though long CD) is great, and the 10% condi duration helps ensure two ticks of terror.

Carrion also increases your lf bar a lot.
When it comes to the meta, condi DMG is what people are going, even as a necro you can’t cleanse all of it. When it comes to tpvp carrion is superior

actually I believe it’s + 20%, the tooltip has been wrong since beta (unless they fixed it).. the 2 piece bonus is right but the 4th makes it add up to 20.

Carrion no question for me. was running rabid for a couple months after release and while it does a lot of things right, and synergises well with many traits it is just a little lacking. With carrion it is an extra bit of damage on top that speeds up killing, and it makes necro more flexible in regards to weapon and utility changes.

Also in wvw with the predominance of condition removal from shouts, combos, and the many people running melandru and lemongrass it makes solely relying on conditions less viable

IMO condition build is useless in WvW where 30% of players are guardians.
But then again it depends on your server, who you run with, against what kind of team, etc.

Is burning the only thing we need? No. Burning does, however, have the chance to fix our offensive problems in Condition builds, and depending on how it is implemented has the chance to help out other build types; just based on how high base damage it is (and low scaling).

No one is saying we don’t need more than just burning. Minions, power builds, support, hybrid, every build we have still needs slight work on the defensive front (and some others), but this is a start to fixing our offense. And if you talk to any of the current top PvP Necros, you’ll see why burning is required.

Runes of melandru at like 3 gold and lemon grass poultry soup price went way up. Clearly this shouldn’t be intended. Immunity to snares makes condition cleansing overpowered. Thats a few less conditions that they have to worry abount cleansing. Not to mention people depend on chills/cripples/immobilize to cover their bleeds or other damaging conditions. I wouldnt expect a fix anytime soon though. For example, look how long it took for them nerf the lifesteal food. With no ICD, you had a high chance to proc an extra 400 damage and steal that as life. Now factor in channeling attacks or grenades that hit multiple targets. Even if it didn’t steal life the damage alone was way over the top in terms of balance. On top of that you had flamethrower/nade engis in full zerker topping themselves off from the heal alone. That took them like 6 months to nerf that food.

I expect a few months before they nerf the food. Its funny when people’s builds are built entirely around runes and consumables.

There is a reason why its worth more then three times the amount of any other food in the game right now… can you really not see how strong this food is? Please nerf it down to 20% and or more reasonable levels.

Or make it to where it only reduces one condition’s duration to 40% every second.

Please make a reason to use other foods, or bring them up-to-par.

Rok.5260:

We can level from 1-80 naked just by using minions I hear.

Only if minions want to.
They usually prefer watch you being beaten hard with a pop-corn bucket and tortillas.

I hear this everytime.

“It would be OP to start each fight with full life bar”

Why? Why would it be?

We are balanced around using Death Shroud.

Personally, even with full DS, I don’t go in a fight thinking : “Man easy fight”.

With full DS, I know I start on equal footing.

With an empty bar, I feel like I start with an handicap.

In WvW, I start each fight with full LF, and I have yet to see anyone call out necro for being OP in WvW because of DS.

I don’t really think that it is a FIX because it’s not broken. It would be really convenient tho. Hope they do this.

They both suffer from the same issues. Slow/unreliable activations, terrible aiming, and cooldowns generally too long to warrant the active effects.

But then again, this is Necro we’re talking about, why expect anything else.

natsos.3692:

SA has some crucial uses on bunker builds. The amount of LF generated when you have 3 people on you,is a full LF bar most of the time. I would take a full bar of LF over SW anytime.
Also it IS your stun breaker and your protection stacking ontop of your wells.

Are you aware that Spectral Walk has the exact same “gain life force when hit” ability as Spectral Armor? And it lasts longer? On a shorter cooldown? With the same stunbreak? In any situation where I would consider running Spectral Armor, I always find myself asking why I’m not running Spectral Walk instead. It just flat out works better.

Mine is

1. Factions (like in original GW)
2. Underwater Maps with underwater siege!!
3. Reduce the skill lag

I have it! The solution is this:

Retaliation damage should also trigger Retaliation.

Sound good?!