(edited by Abazigal.3679)
Instead of facing hambows and engineers, i’m only facing rangers and engineers now( soloQ experience only however).
Pretty annoying considering all my zerker builds now get rolled quickly by those rangers…
I got that too and it’s annoying. There are also some skills that are bugged sometimes, bull’s charge especially, which will knockdown the target but move you too far from it..
Skyhammer forces a lack of build diversity and a promotion of people using cheesy skilless builds to bunt people off of cliffs and hold the godkitten cannon!!!!
DESTROY IT
You can take it on the other way too. Skyhammer is the only map out of 6 that will have different kind of builds ( and even…).
At least that’s a map where you can have a chance of beating warriors and engineers with rangers and eles…
It seems like people on this forum have this weird misconception that condition damage just shouldn’t exist at all, because it’s somehow this weird, abstract type of damage that’s completely different from direct damage in practically every way. I don’t get it. I think people are what over-complicating condition damage actually is, and it’s making them fail at successfully countering conditions like high-level players do.
More likely that some threads are made regarding soloQ experience, and some answers are made regarding teamQ experience. The problem is that the 2 modes are way too different now…
I would agree with you from a teamQ point of view, but i can feel what the OP means. Randomness of soloQ makes it rather difficult for some setups to handle these builds, which happen a lot
It seems to be a bug. Last game, i tried to ping on map once, and the red circle remained on map during all the game…
The problem upon the definition of bunker might be linked to " damage through conditions only ". Most meta builds are able to keep a point, but also to kill thanks to these conditions and not through physical damage.
I think it might help to answer the question " What’s a DPS " to understand " What’s a bunker "
Its probably because of conquest. Nobody wants to watch tiny asurans running in circles and dropping AoE on point.
If your game isint fun to watch then it will never be an esport.
I think the problem is more likely that soloQ and teamQ are too different. In one mode, it’s usually about hambows, engineers or fear chain necros. It’s way more balanced in the other mode..
You can’t use what you’ve learned and watched then, since you will rarely face similar team compositions.
It’s only on 1 map out of 6 however, whereas the mentionned builds( i.e combinaisons of hambows and engineers) are able to win rather easily other maps in soloQ( even on skyhammer actually…).
Is it really true ? I rarely saw players complaining at the map in my last soloQ matchs. Actually, i saw a lot more concerning engineers or hambow on other maps…
The problem is that the matchmaking tends to be more or less RNG with such a system, combining quick decay and beginners being placed at any rank( #1 to lowest).
Then, you can have anyone at any rank. Be #100 and being teamed with 4 beginners who won their first matchs, be 90% and teamed with beginners against players who got 1200 wins/1000 loses.
Experience should be reflected in the ladder..
Balancing is annoying and the system can be abused to farm for gold and reward tracks. Just simply get out of losing team and force team balance, instant swap to winning team ANET did a good job adding the feature.
You still get the winner reward if you’re party swapped i believe. I just had a match where we were winning 200-10, then i got swapped, the match ended 500-70 and i still had 450 points.
That’s mostly the problem of soloQ vs teamQ. soloQ is full of necros and engineers, because they are condition/sustain, and good enough to beat poor setups, full dps builds, low experienced players,…
It’s not the case in teamQ because you know tactic will be followed, you know who is running what,…
I believe the all-star list is fine…
Things i would like to see different :
- meta builds : it’s too much about condition/sustain and isn’t fun at all( i.e engineers). You’re forced to run similar builds, and have as many players as opponent do running similar builds
- leaderboards/matchmaking : making it less volatile and with a minimum/maximum range would fix hurting 4v5 loses and there wouldn’t be top10 with 15 games played
Problem is also that you don’t learn anything with these builds. It has come to a state that people are even flaming you for trying to post tactics( usually warriors, on block mode..).
Today, i’ve had a lot of no sense moves, people sitting on a point although noone is coming, complaining when you down to anything, …
It’s not fun, and actually even hotjoin is a better practice for teamQ.
How about +1 for every good player your team has, -1 for every bad player.
I don’t have hundreds of tournament games but classes rarely are a deciding factor. I’ve seen all lights destroy all heavies, 4 engi teams lose on skyhammer, 4+ teams of necros win, and a 4 warrior/1 guardian team lose. Classes only begin to matter much when player skill is even.
Well, it happens but on average these team compositions are winning, especially on foefire and temple. Skyhammer and Spirit’s Watch are probably most fair maps, since you can win by not ’ fighting ’ these meta builds..
Skyhammer and spirit Watch can be won easily : 1st one obviously by kicking people off map, second one simply by ignoring the orb.
Other maps are too hard in my opinion. The worst case is if they decide to only use 2 points, and to ignore your home. The whole fight will be decided by whether your team has someone with stability or not. If not, the match will probably be lost in most cases.
You can’t really compare it. Gw1 relied on a lot of teamwork, because you had dps builds, healers, rupters, etc… Everyone had a role. Here, we have polyvalent builds(i.e turret engi, hambow,..) that can do many roles and work on their own.
Also, the capping system was completly different though. There were more shrines to cap, and it was most on a point = cap it.
On topic, what needs to happen is maybe more explicit counters to such builds. There’s no real way to beat easily a 5 hambow team, from the same level as you.
(edited by Abazigal.3679)
Turret engis are easy if you are not focused on fighting on the point. Back away, range and AoE them, lure them away from turrets if you can. When his turrets start getting low and going down, pop stab and go in for a burst.
That’s easier said than done though. Like i just had, when you have to deal with a team of 2 turret engi and a mm necro, being a glassy team, it’s literraly not doable.
One team requires a lot of communication, solid team composition, solid builds( i like testing some in soloQ), doing complicated tricks like you mentionned to kill. Other team can win by simply having 1 engi camp mid and the mm necro camp home, rest watching map.
However, it’s easier to deal with in teamQ yes..
Good idea. Maybe not chaos lyssa at the end considering the value, but it could be something like :
- Champion Wiggins box, Champion Pyroxis, Champion Liadri end box
- End reward being 500 festival tokens( just an example)
Next suggestion will be filter:
1) no hambows
2)no thieves (they have invis!! >_<)
3) no decappers
4) no rang 80
honestly… filters sucks
Pretty much this. Right now, in all honesty, i have had far more balanced matchs on skyhammer and Spirit’s Watch than on foefire or khylo. You almost can’t do anything against hambows and engis on these maps, and these builds are happening way too often..
That’s for TA yes, but it has to be fixed for soloQ. I actually do not mind being teamed with lower ranked, as long as opponent does have lower ranked people too..
The meta is however partly a problem in that, since it’s hard for beginners to handle builds such as hambow, turret engi, mm necro ,etc…
Please keep it on topic. I want to have a discussion about the current downed state.
You said it yourself, “advantage”, there should be none, everyone should be the same when they are downed. And FYI I don’t play any bunker builds.
The problem is that, then, the fight should be as well balanced for all classes, and it’s not the case at all. If these classes couldn’t teleport, people would drop even quicker to meta builds, that almost always have stability up( you have an example in actual tPvP matchs, where it’s about chasing the necro)
Still, it’s actually the same problem as Evolved jungle wurm. There’s one district, that remains full like 24/7, with people farming over and over. And Failure districts, with people managing to do the event after an hour from time to time..
Everytime i logged past days, i had 6 boss up almost all the time, with a bronze reward indicator.
Obviously, you can’t expect 3 exotics per success, but there’s still some problem i believe..
The real annoyance to me is that there seem to be 1 full district and a few empty districts.
The full district won’t really have problems, but it might take an hour or more to do the whole event in other districts, where there are 15 players on gaunlets and 10 available.
Sitting on home is good when :
- you got solid team composition ( 2 bunkers) and you got noone pushing far
- opponent got a bad team composition
Otherwise, it’s not helping anything. It works in soloQ( unfortunately not only vs low ranked players) because there’s always one guy who wants to 1v1 the guy sitting on his home instead of making it a 5v4/4v4 on mid.
That’s why I said they would have to include some way of calculating bunkers that hold points. As for the randomness, yesterday I got put on a team with 4 rangers, not saying that rangers are bad (well the 2 Bear Bows were) , but it is a disadvantage when facing a well balanced team. I got 3 4v5 matchess, and was on the losing side of Skyhammer 4 times in a row. All that time I was top 2 scorer by a a considerable margin between me and the guy below me. My MMR dropped and there was nothing I could do to stop it. 1 or 2 people cannot carry a whole team.
That’s why I say that the current system is pointless. It doesn’t mean a thing when so many factors out of your control influence the results.
This. Out of 3 matchs today, 1 was lost because we were 4v5 for 1mn, second was was lost because it was 4v5 the whole match, and the third one was lost because people were fighting off point… Nothing i can do here..
The funniest part was when i checked leaderboards. Last week , i was having -150 ranks for 1 win 2 loses. Now i noticed i went up +2% for 3 loses..
At least, the system should be much less volatile. 4v5’s and bad match ups would be less annoying if you didn’t drop so much in the ranking( thus getting a worse mmr)
This game favours tanky builds with a lot of damage right now.
Hambows that is.
Exactly. Generally, bunker builds aren’t supposed to have damage. Basically, 5 bunkers could decap points, hold them, and kill 5 dps builds along some time. But alternatively, 5 dps builds should be able to land all damage with no risk.
Right now, hambows ( and to a lesser extend engis) can do both roles and even kill 5 dps builds in a matter of seconds.
You know, I actually kind of enjoy this meta. I think the fact that everything is so easy to play will force players to become more skillful and I actually think that in the end skill will win out over cheeze builds.
Not at all. The problem is that in soloQ , a big part of games are either 4v5( where you generally lose), either about 5 squishies vs 3 warriors and 2 engis. You actually don’t learn anything in such situations. Now if you add to it that the build is fairly easy to play, and doesn’t have a lot of risk…
That’s all the problem. These builds don’t have any explicit counter. You can’t say " ok they got 5 warriors, so we should be able to win if we run that ". In GW1 for example, common meta things such as Iway, bbway could be dealt with easily if you worried about having the spirits down, if you had someone to rupt some key skills, etc..
You actually do learn a lot by running full dps builds, since you care much more about positionning, handling conditions, dodging key skills,…
ToL is one thing. However, fact is that when you do play soloQ and teamQ, the only thing you’re facing are hambows and engis. 4 games today :
- 1 soloq vs 4 engis
- 2 teamq vs 3 warriors + engi
These builds are beatable hopefully, but you can also lose way too easily, whilst it doesn’t seem to require a lot of effort to win for them. Also, facing these builds over and over isn’t really fun and tend to make people ( myself included) rather mad..
Currently the game is about damage and almost no support or healing. Imagine a foefire match without the capture points: the faster rushing team will win. People dont care about the minion npcs they go straight for the boss. With more/stronger npcs and healers you could get a skillful match. But not with the pvp as it is now.
I agree with NPC part. There is no way to save a guild lord if enemies get there.
However, game is already very much focused on bunkering. I really don’t see any benefit from bring in even more healers.
Exactly. Actually, that’s even the opposite. Some bunker builds are having too big damage thanks to conditions. 5 bunkers/decap( i.e 2 guards 2 engi 1 war) should be able to recap points easily by kicking players off it, and to hold these. However, they shouldn’t be able to literraly destroy 5 squishy armors on a big fight
6. Teleporting to Clock point on Khylo from the bottom
7. Treb bug : i didn’t see it many times, but the treb has disappeared, you can’t use it, and there’s no repair kit..
What Duran said. SoloQ has turned into a big lottery to me. Bad team compositions, 4v5’s, people not following strategies.
Strategies followed can be good, but most of times they aren’t followed, and you got 1 or 2 guys constantly pushing far, while there’s a bunker on it. What happens is that you won the mid fight, 1 or 2 decide to go far, end up getting zerged because people rezzed, then that team recaps middle, and they easily sit on these 2. This happens maybe 1/3 matchs, although i’m generally typing to not go far..
People need to play the least risky tactics in order to avoid soloQ classic issues..
I’m still wondering though. Based on my soloQ experience, i’m seeing more complaints about dying to condition spamming on traditional maps than being pulled on skyhammer
It used to be strategy requiring, but today it’s mostly about losing 500-150 because one guy decided to push far , because one guy only wants to run the orb, because one guy keeps rushing in 1v3, etc…
I think meta builds nowadays aren’t helping neither to develop strategy…people usually are overestimating their builds way too much, whilst there are less risky tactics in soloQ
Thing is that you played team queue and your team was much less experienced. From my point of view, i do believe most complaints about triple warrior or triple engis are based on soloQ( or players entering solo team queue), because you have to deal with random team composition, and some of them hardly deal with triple warriors.
Not gonna change much. I’m losing many won games because people decide to go cap the far point, resulting in deaths on every points. Actually, it’s not even beginners doing it.
I don’t agree with lack of different game modes. I think conquest is perfect mode and no other mode can ever work.
However, PvP is in very bad shape right now. I couldn’t care less if I win or lose a match. There is no benefit from winning at all. Leaderboard is pretty much a fail at its current state. Something has to be fixed about that.
Exactly. Conquest mode is great. Maybe what can happen is different objectives, like more relic runs, or more points to capture.
Leaderboards are also in a bad state. Actually, i do not mind much losing neither. However, when i’m checking it and notice i’m having -130 ranks for 1 win/2 loses, i tend to be annoyed. Especially when #1 has a 48 wins and 58 loses.
Too complicated in my opinion. Making it less volatile would fix everything. Experienced players would be on top, and beginners would be after.
Quite often these days i’m having +1 win + 2 loses, resulting in -125 ranks, which is riduculous. If everyone is getting the same thing, you can’t have a stable system, anyone could be at any rank. Thus, being teamed with lesser experienced players.
Bad idea.
Both teamcomps and strategy work off each other for a win. You can have a great teamcomp, but terrible strategy and still lose the game. You can have good strategy and bad team comp and still (possibly) win the game. Given that there is almost no legitimate strategy you can have as a team in soloq, teamcomps rarely have to do whether you win or not (imo).
I can’t really agree. Usually, 50% of my soloQ matchs are about similar team compositions, and it’s relatively fair, even with lesser experienced players.
However, rest of matchs are about unfairness, such as 2 warriors 2 engis 1 necro against no heavy, and most of the time it’s simply a pure destroy. Camping 2 points is usually enough to win the match 500-200. It’s team composition win entirely..
The real problem in the meta is clearly the overload of conditions combined with bunker facilities, which make total dps builds and total bunker builds rather useless. Teams with warriors engis and necro are too common and too hard to handle generally.
Maybe what would help is having a degen of health, instead of losing an amount of it each x seconds..
Nothing out of 5 tracks+ about 22 rank up chests, not a single exotic. I did get several gold items however.
I think the judgement over engis is quite biaised by the fact that most fights are about 1 hambow + 2 engis( or 2 hambows + 2 engis).
Engi itself isn’t that OP, however when you’re facing 2 of them combined to 2 warriors ( half of my matchs yesterday), it becomes ridiculous, especially when you have no heavy in your party.
or a better strategy, don’t play skyhammer.
It’s not really more fun facing warriors and engineers( rarely less than 3 of these at least) on foefire or forest, having mesmers and eles in your team..
I think the most important thing is to know how and when to use far point. Some builds can 1v1, but i would say to not bother if there is a guy sitting there. You will have numerical advantage on other points.
You had 24 wins and 2 loses. Assuming it’s soloq ( so team and opponents change over and over), it should be in theory 50% wins 50% loses( with some variations). You had luck somewhere if you ended up with a ratio above than 75% i guess..
Actually, solo queue is about getting 5 random players against 5 other random players, so obviously luck matters somewhere.. The only issue is about low experienced people being teamed with high ranked, because of the MMR..
The actual system is fine, the point is to make PvP as rewarding as PvE. However, maybe there could be less RNG rewards( for example, 36th reward could be a glob of ectoplasm, 23rd reward a random gold weapon,…)
I do agree with most of your points, but i do believe changing the leaderboard system would fix everything :
Leaderboard should reward experience : There are too many people that do not really deserve their ranking. You shouldn’t be placed directly in the top10 having 9 wins and 4 loses. Thus, you’re having matchs with very low ranked players and very experienced ones together ( since they’re on the same MMR..).
It should be like +2/5 points and -1/4 for loses ( according to opponents). That way, 4v5 loses wouldn’t hurt much ( unlike right now, where 2 or 3 4v5 can ruin all what you worked for in a week).That way, decay wouldn’t be really needed neither..
You won’t change anything based on luck anyway( such as 3 eles vs 4 warriors matchs), but less hurting loses would quite fix it. Today, it happens a lot that you get -50 ranks for a lose, while wins are giving +4 or +5 ranks..
i like it, but should be a range limit on how far you can rally off someone.
This. That’s the only problem i have with downed state.
The general balance is good in my opinion, better than pre-patch. So far, the only imbalance would be on that engineer build( not sure i won a game having 0 engi and opponent having 2, or even did we get more than 250 pts)